You Know, Leaving Him Is An Option, Too » VSB

Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Featured

You Know, Leaving Him Is An Option, Too

ti and tiny“When a man has friends who cheat and get away with it, I think he starts to think, ‘Oh, okay. This is how it works. Let me just give it some time. She’ll forgive me.’ Because I think a lot of chicks forgive n*ggas who cheat.”

“A lot of chicks really don’t have a choice, to be honest.”

“Wait, what? How do you figure that?”

“I mean, I’m just coming from a place where I know so many of my friends who are still smashing chicks on the side. If every chick threw their dude in the bushes for cheating, no one would be in a relationship.”

I had this conversation with a good (guy) friend of mine a couple weeks ago, and I’ve been thinking about it ever since. I am 100 percent certain he was in no way being hyperbolic or facetious — we have some of the same friends and I know how these dudes move; these hoes ain’t loyal.

Aside from the physical dangers that come with cheating (Black women being most likely to receive HIV through heterosexual contact, with partners who fail to disclose they’ve been off sexing someone else in their spare time) there’s also this idea of “choice,” which my friend hinted at. Choices are hard; choices are even harder when you’ve got options. (This fact makes me one of the worst people to decide on dinner. And clothes. And on what to write. And…you get my point.) The neuron misfires during sex make our brains cloudy. I empathize. But I can’t say I understand.

Any healthy relationship is an elective one. Its participants are actively choosing to participate and/or maintain a level of mutual interest in making it work. Cheating happens when someone successfully maintains a series of lies for their own personal benefit; cheaters rob the cheated on of their ability to make informed choices. Inherently, it both presumes and acknowledges that without the lies and performances, somebody would walk away. That the cheater is somehow inadequate as his or her own fool self, which is probably entirely accurate, and this is how couples get here when nobody was supposed to be here.

But how is it that the prevalence of cheating yields a lack of options available to women? Seems to me if you’re a woman who doesn’t want to deal with a cheating man, you’ve got plenty of options – the first being to get rid of the cheater and find someone who doesn’t cheat. There’s always a choice, but some choices require a little resolve.

There are women who believe this, too, though. They’ve bought into the idea that cheating on some level, even if not the physical, is “what men do.” I’ve had a friend who’s told me “He takes care of me, and he makes me happy, I’m sure he has his little, whatever… but if I don’t see it, then I won’t know.” I’ve had another, so war torn by a situationship she’s trying to maintain that she’s submitted to the idea that “this is just what it is.”

Take a minute and stare blankly at the screen with me.

Women waste countless years of their lives behind this kind of thinking. Many a beautiful child has been conceived under this pretense. And why people make life harder than it has to be, I’ll never know. Because there is always a choice. Yes, cheating happens because human beings are fallible and mistakes are sometimes made and sometimes people are just selfish. But there is always a choice for both parties about what to do and how to move forward — another elective process between two knowledgeable and consenting adults. And though infidelity might be ubiquitous [Note: Is it? I have no idea] it doesn’t make it any more appropriate or fair or acceptable, kind of like the endurance of the Kardashian empire. Somebody has to take a stand on these things. We can’t all be Ryan Seacrest.

Maya Francis

Maya K. Francis is a culture writer and communications strategy consultant. When not holding down the Black Girl Beat for VSB, she is a weekly columnist for Philadelphia Magazine's "The Philly Post" and contributes to other digital publications including xoJane, Esquire, and EBONY.com. Sometimes TV and radio producers are crazy enough to let her talk on-air, and she helped write a book once. She cites her mother and Whitley Gilbert as inspirations.

  • I wish women who think cheating is “normal” from their partners, would love themselves. What kind of messed up life have some women been living for them to want to be in relationships founded upon lies? If you’re into swinging and/or into having an open relationship then that’s a different story BUT if your relationship is a closed one, there shouldn’t be any “side whatevers”.

    P.S. I like the author’s fro!

    • Its pride, they can’t believe THEY chose an ain’t sh t man. They love him, introduced him to family, had a child, did that one thing they said they’d only do for a husband, and were completely wrong about him.

      • camilleblu

        Basically.

        • Obsidian Files

          Women are HORRIBLE at making mating decisions alone; they are not wired for it, by and large. This is why Women having friends, including, especially, male ones are so very important to them – because they NEED the assiduous input from others, both male and female alike, to assist her in “vetting” a Man prior to mating with him. Another major “assist” for Women, is the society in which she lives.

          Of course, all of these things can be gamed, or otherwise fooled, and/or they can be faulty or otherwise compromised – hence Tristan’s observations above…

          O.

          PS: Ms. Camille, I am wondering if you heard the latest with the NYT’s Nicholas Kristoff? Seems he’s got quite a bit of egg on his face in the wake of the Somaly Mam fiasco…

          • camilleblu

            i have not heard the latest. the Somaly Mam debacle is just….i don’t think i have the words to elucidate my dismay.

            • It just shows that the White Liberal Hustle #isreal, and until it ends, people like Somaly Mam will run the streets.

              • camilleblu

                it’s really ridiculous. she is doing so much damage to the human trafficking movement..smh

                • The problem is that White people of a certain cultural orientation have given up on church and placed themselves in the position of Savior. All people like Somaly Mam do is place themselves in the position of supplier. I think the donors to Somaly Mam need to do some serious soul searching, though I have my doubts.

                  • camilleblu

                    so, why do you think the donors need to soul search?

                    • I think the reason she was able to pull off such a hustle was that she played to the needs of certain people. blaming Somaly Mam for the hustle is like blaming the pimp for creating demand for prostitution or the drug dealer for creating the need for drugs. Her scam met a real need in the lives of the people who coughed up the cash, and the elites that supported her need to take a hard look in the mirror to figure out what they were really trying to accomplish with their donations. I will say this though: it damn sure wasn’t an end to $ex trafficking.

                    • camilleblu

                      hmmm…hadn’t thought of it like that. i can see some truth in that.

                    • esa

                      ~ Her scam met a real need in the lives of the people who coughed up the cash, and the elites that supported her need to take a hard look in
                      the mirror to figure out what they were really trying to accomplish with
                      their donations.

                      not sure what was going on. reflecting on the inside politics through all of this. the one thing that i learned on the charity ball circuit is people have money to burn. a very interesting industry. but intolerable.

                    • The most damning stuff to me wasn’t the Newsweek article, but the Cambodian press articles on her past (most of the sources in the Newsweek article were in the Cambodian press article first). Furthermore, she quit after a private investigation by the foundation was done. I generally don’t think it was a scam though, people who know and study foreign aid, for instance, know that if you’re unaware or ignorant of the political nature of a given third world country and don’t go to these countries on your own and familiarize yourself with the geography and ethnic/political tensions within the nation, then you are most likely wasting your money.

                      Dambisa Moyo has done a lot of work on this, but as someone who grew up in Africa, I generally am of the opinion that most NGO’s/ and international non-profit organizations are a waste of money for the exchange of power…including the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation; to me it’s mostly just a bunch of secular missionaries who are more satisfied pursuing goals that are near impossible to achieve (ex. world peace), compared to just doing work in their communities or nation, that doesn’t get much recognition.

                    • esa

                      ~ I generally am of the opinion that most NGO’s/ and international
                      non-profit organizations are a waste of money for the exchange of
                      power…

                      but .. what of the thousands of girls she’s worked with over the years ? this is where it gets real murky for me. isnt that what this, one some level, is actually about ?

                      i mean politics aside. man, love of power. that’s a whole nother thing.

                    • Well, it is what is, you cannot escape the pull of power, it’s a necessity.

                      It goes back to the classical saying about giving fish versus creating fishermen. NGO’s and non-profit organizations offer fish, at the expense of creating fishermen. A nation reliant on foreigners who are mostly ignorant of the totality of who and what they are, outside of their goals and ambitions within the nation, are not going to be able to fix nothing.

                      They’re mostly short-sighted and mostly led by single minded people who want to accomplish one particular thing, which is fine, but a nation is a summation of a vast collection of “interconnected” forces: ranging from the economic, political, ethnic to the cultural and geographical etc that all contribute to the problems and identity of a nation. NGO’s and Non-Profits simply are incapable of dealing with that, mostly because they’re not that invested. A Jamaican NGO could not revive Detroit or save Baltimore, and that’s kind of obvious to us in America; however, we do often think western NGOs can go save much bigger nations, that are far more complex than a singular city could ever be.

                      It’s a missionary perspective, and my oh my, do they not have a solid resume of performance in world history.

                    • esa

                      but. no seriously. these are little kids. i’m curious about how you deal with that reality. what is their story. not NGOs. but them.

                      Somaly changed the laws of Cambodia to fight against human trafficking. isnt that her right as a citizen of her country ? she did shady things, like everyone else in the game.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      This applies locally too.

                    • Obsidian Files

                      http://www.justfourguys.com/somaly-mam-a-saint-in-the-cathedral-falls-guest-post-by-ciaran/

                      @Ms. Camille:
                      If I may, the above link back to J4G on the matter explains things quite aptly. It just goes to show, that Women are indeed capable of lying, and on a grand scale at that.

                      On Twitter earlier this week, I ad a rip roaring time with a gaggle of White Feminists; they didn’t know what to do with a Brotha MRA, LOL. I made it clear that I felt some kind of way about what went down with Somaly Mam because it is the actions of Women like her that has been behind hundreds, if not thousands, of Black Men hanging from trees(!). Of course, they didn’t respond.

                      :)

                      O.

                      Follow the Obsidian on Twitter: @ObsidianFiles

                  • esa

                    it’s more complex than that. i worked with Somaly. there’s levels to this that an outsider wouldn’t catch. you know it’s her ex husband behind the Newsweek story. and that they are feuding now. and that Newsweek did not name sources for most allegations, but the ones it named were damaging.

                    the thing .. no fact checking. how common is this. the New York Times, the book publishers, so many people involved in positioning this. and Somaly is very interesting herself. i’m still undetermined as to the truth of things.

                    all sources are suspect.

                    • camilleblu

                      hey esa!
                      i did not know that her ex is behind the charges. doesn’t mean they aren’t true, but also warrants much closer inspection, considering the source.
                      is this common knowledge (about her ex being the source) – or just something that mostly insiders are privy to?

                    • esa

                      it wasnt reported by Newsweek. but it’s been discussed openly. the Newsweek article is damning, but the lack of sources is terrible. i’m okay with the truth, as long as it is verifiable.

                      see, i been working on this since it was a book with Norman Jean Roy back in 2008. thas a long time that no one was verifying. this is fascinating, and disturbing, at the same time.

                      thing is. there are girls who are in her centers. what is their story. it’s so hard to know just what is real.

                  • esa

                    also, it’s not just white folk. a very celebrated black man saved the day back in 2011. if it werent for him, there would have been no gala. that was the word that evening, as i heard it ..

                    i think the thing is, meeting Somaly was something else. she has a power i’ve never been able to articulate ..

          • Alright Obsidian. You got it.

      • esa

        reality is brutal.

      • Asiyah

        I think it’s a combo of what you and @AfroPetite:disqus said, coupled with the constant message being hit over everyone’s heads that being single is a fate the equivalent (or sometimes, even worse) than death. When we always hear that being single is like death, as human beings programmed for survival, we will do anything to make sure we survive. That leads to many people getting into relationships and staying in relationships out of fear of being alone. It also explains why a lot of people choose to sow their wild oats and cheat on their spouses as opposed to just being alone. We have that need biologically engrained in us and on top of that societal norms call for pairings and groupings. Anyone not paired or grouped will be labeled an outsider and as many social psychology experiments can confirm, nobody likes to be an outsider.

        • esa

          ~ nobody likes to be an outsider

          i respectfully disagree. some of us (hi ! hello !) have always been other, always been outside. still likable tho. it’s a different vantage point, and as a result, it’s an extremely creative place to be. the trick is that it requires you to make the best use of what is atypical ~*~

          • Asiyah

            I respectfully disagree. being an individual is not the same as being an outsider. nobody likes rejection. some people have experienced rejection all of their lives and end up internalizing it and in turn, owning up, relishing in their individualism. I know this from personal experience. However, the initial reaction to that first instant of rejection is shame and other negative feelings. What people like is having the choice of being an outsider/individual. Nobody likes to be kicked out of the group.

            • esa

              ~ Nobody likes to be kicked out of the group.

              yes this is true, but when it isnt a choice, its disempowering to focus on the negative. the initial reaction in many things evolves over time, so that being an outsider is not a source of shame. that is my point. many come to enjoy their distinctive vantage point.

          • Epsilonicus

            But we all want to belong a group. Even the supposed non-comformist actually do a code of conduct that they conform to. That is not bad, it is how humans as social creatures work

            • esa

              we want to belong, but it may not be to a group. some want to belong to something less conformist than humans. like Dian Fossey. she was neither of humans nor gorillas. that is what made her a pioneer.

    • Maya K. Francis

      Thank ya, kindly! :)

  • RewindingtonMaximus

    As a man, the idea of cheating is always an obtuse issue to me. On the one hand, I’ve been taught by life “this is what men do”. On the other hand, by my own personal experiences, its probably the stupidest ish men do besides act machismo, start wars, and wearing dirty underwear. So many horrible situations could have been avoided if they just tucked the little guy away and stop drooling at boobs all day.

    I can’t speak for all men, but I can say this: men act stupid because from the very beginning they get a clearly different approach to dating than girls. Parents teach their girls to stay away from boys and protect their hearts. Parents teach their sons to soak their oats. These are both very outdated methods of thinking and yet I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYONE DO ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY. You can’t have a society that’s based on a woman’s worth being attached to her being with a man, and a society based on how many conquests a man can have at the same time without a severe amount of collateral damage.

    So I guess the real question is…..where do we start?

    • PaddyfotePrincess

      I’m not sure where to start, but I believe it’s a combination of selfishness, instant gratification, people being fickle and getting into a relationship because it sounds good. When I’m in an exclusive relationship, I let him know that if at any time either one of us is unhappy with the direction of the relationship, there’s no need to step out, let’s end it. I can respect that. The unwillingness to communicate what it is you really want to do and then stepping out is not cool. Miss me with that, I’m out.

      • camilleblu

        #WERD
        and #HAYBOO :)

        • PaddyfotePrincess

          Hey Cami. It’s not a good look. In addition to the health risks, what if the side piece is crazy? The risk isn’t worth the reward.

          • camilleblu

            girl #LISSEN!
            i ain’t about that #crazysidechick or #std life. that’s that shyt that will get you murked.

            • PaddyfotePrincess

              A couple of years ago, an acquaintance was involved in a love triangle that ended in tragedy. A pastor stalked his estranged wife and her boo, followed the boo home and gunned him down on his front steps.

      • RewindingtonMaximus

        This is the approach i would use as well, but so many people seem to think it makes more sense to risk both than to just have one. I’d rather leave my wife if the urge to cheat is that strong than to betray her, but I’m in the minority on that belief and I’m not sure why.

        • jolly

          As someone who’s been cheated on and has chosen to forgive, I still wrestle with this whole cheating thing. Is the saying once a cheater always a cheater true? Are some people just more likely to be cheated on? Or are we all just cheaters” or cheated ons” in waiting? It’s funny to me that even in this thread it’s clear that “this is what men do” is not only assumption it’s a commonly held prescription/belief, heck even a lifestyle.
          And yes women cheat too. I’d even go as far as to say alot of revenge cheating happens as well (NOBODY ain’t loyal) and it begs the question about all the options we all have against just plain old human nature…the selfishness, the instant gratification, the being fickle…In fact I’ve begun to look at older couples and assume their secret is the patience and forgiveness (or blind eye they turned) exercised to these very “human” tendencies..because it HAPPENS! it has even made me question the institution of marriage outside of the whole everyone needs a health proxy argument.

          Point is, it does just happen sometimes (as frequently as people exercise the right to choose) and I guess part of being an adult is choosing to forgive, to move on, or to chop a dick (or pussy) off but seems inevitable to me…this cheating thing is here to stay…and believing in that may just shift your paradigm and reveal a plethora of forbidden options…exclusivity seems almost to be some forced mask a bunch of folks are putting on to numb them from the reality of human nature (rum raisin may be your favorite ice cream today heck even 25 years from now but if you one day get tired of eating rum raisin every single day and want to try pistachio….you very much will and that there consequences included, is your choice…your option, and as long as as your choice doesnt jeopardize someone else’s life/right to choose….well the latex companies will keep making money and praise the lord for all of that and all of the little babies :)

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            Excellent point. Cheating is practical to me, its hard for me to see it as an awful thing when people have options. Not to say i like it, i don’t. I’ve been cheated on myself and it was brutal on me. But in hindsight, i realize how arrogant it is to ask another human being to swear loyalty to you….that’s guaranteed to no one because humans are very fickle creatures.

            I choose to be objective. If you lay the terms on the line from the get go, hopefully it stops the sneaky behavior that cheating eludes to. We would all like to see what’s coming for us rather get stabbed in the back. For me, the best method is to love with a foot out the door. I will always keep my mental and emotional health above all else. I’ll give all my love but always believe there is a beginning and an end, we are not promised a guarantee things last as long as we want.

    • Obsidian Files

      @Mr. Rewind:
      So, I take it from your comments above, and from that which I have read of yours previously, that you are of the view that Humanity is shaped largely by “Culture”?

      O.

      • RewindingtonMaximus

        Yes indeed i am of that view. I believe biologically, monogamy has no place in our society at all, because our bodies simply respond to reproductive needs and the desire for companionship. I just don’t think our vision of companionship is reflective of the actual true version.

        Secondly, i think our religious principles for monogamy are ridiculous as they don’t reflect the ever-changing needs of humanity over time. On a base level, we are no different than humans from thousands of years ago. However, mentally, physically, and spiritually we are now superior because so much about human beings has changed over time, so we do adhere to such archiac rules?

        Lastly, human behavior today is fundamentally shaped by culture and environment. If we were taught from the beginning that monogamy was a sin, no one would ever think to be with just one person, unless the desire was so strong that they couldn’t help themselves. So if our culture today states bang who you want, there’s a pill to fix what happens later….then why are we surprises people do it? When we have two generations of women today who want to mentally move forward but still want to practice traditions that give them no power at all, is it any wonder that they will get left in the dust?

        • Rawtid

          i cant agree with this.

          I do agree that behavior is largely shaped by culture and environment. but I think saying that monogamy has no place in our culture and is archaic is a stretch IMO. I say that bc fundamentally humans have a need for their own–family, companion, kids, etc. Thats not to say there arent some people who value something different(or rather a different interpretation). But I think thats something that is inherent in us. We crave loyalty and companionship, and again our own.

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            In my mind, it has no place due to how much more complicated the rules of our society gets as we get older.

            I’m fully aware a lot of people would agree with your belief instead of mines, but in my own experiences, I’ve not seen anything to believe differently besides my own relationship.

            • Zahra

              Tbh, monogamy and polygyny can coexist, as they have in civilizations past. However, it’s the rigid Greco-Roman tradition of forced monogamy and the judo-Christian adoption of these practices that set the tone for modern monogamy and as a result the problems that have arisen with it.

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                Thank you for saying that. I never really looked at the distinctions.

                • http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-History-How-Love-Conquered-ebook/dp/B002I1XRZY

                  @Mr. Rewind:
                  The above book by Prof. Stephanie Coontz is an EXCELLENT read, a very well done overview of the origins of marriage and how it has changed in meaning, purpose and function over time; it picks up on and closely examines many of the themes Ms. Zahra spoke to above. No matter where you fall on the matter – and my views on it are well known in these parts – it is nevertheless in my view, a must-read.

                  O.

                  • RewindingtonMaximus

                    Thank you O, i think i will give it a shot

        • Epsilonicus

          There are Darwinian reasons for monogamy though. Monogamy was useful because it helps determine paternity. Our society is still very patrilineal. Now if the focus was matrilineal, paternity would not be an issue

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            Our global society is past being paternal though. If anything, we are now overpopulated and if people keep sticking to the old rules, we may destroy most of the resources we have in due time and leave future generations with nothing.

            I’m not even past the idea that someday in the future, procreating will be outlawed,and perhaps relationships will be predetermined for functionality purposes, rather than emotional bonds.

            • Epsilonicus

              Naw it aint. If paternity did not matter, we would not have Maury Povich

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                Maury is exactly my point, people making babies nobody wants

                • @Mr. Rewind:
                  Actually, if no one wanted the babies, “Maury” wouldn’t exist – *for some two decades running at this point*…
                  O.

                  • Yoles

                    most of the men i have seen on maury are hoping- wishing, praying and making faux explanations as to why the-the baby isn’t theirs… i have seen men that want the child in question to be their child but that is a VAST minority…

                    • @Ms. Yoles:
                      Yes, I would agree with you, but there does seem to be some research on the matter (which is VERY HARD to come by – take a wild guess why?) which seems to indicate that such matters, the putative dad doesn’t want to be and suspects the Baby Mama of cuckolding him. “Maury” seems to bear this out.
                      O.

                    • RewindingtonMaximus

                      Pretty mich that’s what I’ve seen

                  • RewindingtonMaximus

                    Maury shows me people wanna make babies, not take care of them

        • Epsilonicus

          “When we have two generations of women today who want to mentally move forward but still want to practice traditions that give them no power at all, is it any wonder that they will get left in the dust?”

          Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan… I just had a convo on this recently.

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            And that was probably a very emotional convo, because i don’t know many people who would want to speak on that topic logically.

            • Epsilonicus

              I always have to explain to people the reasoning behind chivalry, and it aint about being nice. It is all about women being too weak to navigate the world themselves…

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                Exactly! That’s the bitter pill nobody wants to swallow

        • @Mr. Rewind:

          “Yes indeed i am of that view. I believe biologically, monogamy has no place in our society at all, because our bodies simply respond to reproductive needs and the desire for companionship. I just don’t think our vision of companionship is reflective of the actual true version.”

          O: Hmm. Well, you are definitely correct to note that anatomically, both males and females of the human race are indeed optimized for extra-pair bonding…and yet, we have monagamously done so for arguably millions of years. The reasons why, at least as far as the human female is concerned, are very easy to see: a Woman had a much better chance of survival, both for herself and her kids, by bonding to one Man, than to several at the same time.

          That leaves the riddle as to why Men would choose to marry, since from a biological standpoint, reproduction is very cheap. Well, at least one answer to that riddle, is because by marrying – offering the longterm commitment and resources Women most desire – he can secure not only mating opportunities, but even better ones (read: better Women – say, going from a “4” to a “6” by putting a ring on it) than he could by playing the field as it were. Not only that, but the latter option can be rather expensive, and is rife with its own risks: STDs, running afoul of the male members of the female he hit and ran on, incurring very real threats of violence, and putting out resources in a short term mating effort. Which can prove quite costly, with potentially little to show for it in terms of mating opportunities.

          “Secondly, i think our religious principles for monogamy are ridiculous as they don’t reflect the ever-changing needs of humanity over time. On a base level, we are no different than humans from thousands of years ago. However, mentally, physically, and spiritually we are now superior because so much about human beings has changed over time, so we do adhere to such archiac rules?”

          O: Very good question. I’m far from a theologian, but just taking a very rudimentary layman’s stab at the question, I think the enduring appeal of the World’s Great Faiths is its identifying Universal Truths of the human spirit, that have stood the test of time. Now, to be sure, there will be Agnostics and outright Atheists who will argue that Core Values like Virtue, Kindness, Justice, Mercy and the like, are not part and parcel of and with Religion; but I would respectfully disagree. Indeed, our laws and customs emanate from the Great Faiths, and I think we are all, Believer and Unbeliever alike, the much better for it.

          “Lastly, human behavior today is fundamentally shaped by culture and environment. If we were taught from the beginning that monogamy was a sin, no one would ever think to be with just one person, unless the desire was so strong that they couldn’t help themselves. So if our culture today states bang who you want, there’s a pill to fix what happens later….then why are we surprises people do it? When we have two generations of women today who want to mentally move forward but still want to practice traditions that give them no power at all, is it any wonder that they will get left in the dust?”

          O: Hmm…question – when you say they want to “mentally move forward”, is it possible that the reason many of them cannot (and that in itself is a pretty huge leap, in my view), BECAUSE of their evolutionary hardwiring, over many millions of years on the planet? I just gave a very plausible reason as to how and why a Woman would choose monagamy over say, polyandry. From an EvoPsych POV for human females, it makes perfect sense, given the tremendous risks a Woman takes to have sex, get pregnant, endure nine months of pregnancy and the potentially life-threatening event of childbirth (which, I must say, is a sight to behold, even now in our novel age of medical technology and other wonderous interventions).

          Moreover, the history of human mating bears witness to the fact that there was always more than one game in town, so to speak – Polygamy in particular, is very well documented, in all three of the world’s Great Faiths, and is still very much in evidence on the African continent, perhaps the most polygamous place on the planet at present. And that’s not including the regular occurrence of affairs, mate-poaching, short term mating (“hooking up” or as it’s known in the hood, “talking to so and so”, “just kickin’ it”, et al.). All of these variations of human mating have very long histories, and don’t look to be slowing down anytime soon…and yet, right here in this very forum, there are ardent “true believers” in that One Twu Wuv. Indeed, America remains the most marrying country in the Western world(!) – to such an extent, that we all have borne witness to Gays and Lesbians fighting tooth and nail to want in on the franchise. Something that strong in the human psyche and spirit says, to me at least, that marriage, monagamy and the like, aren’t just “social constructs” of a bygone era, but rather, they are powerful impulses and drives within us that are the result of millions of years of evolution along mating lines, designed to solve the plethora of adaptive problems associated with human mating.

          At least that’s my take, and I’m sticking to it! :)

          Thanks, Rewind. As always, good stuff!

          O.

    • esa

      ~ So I guess the real question is…..where do we start?

      on ourselves ~*~

      • RewindingtonMaximus

        For many, i believe its too late for that. I think we have to start with children first. I don’t teust adults to do thw right things for themselves, but i do expect them to risk it all for children.

        • esa

          you retire when you are dead. until then, there is always time. i underestimate no soul on earth ~*~

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            I’m more biased than you are, I’m hoping in time i will free my mind from such things

            • esa

              as you think, you become ~*~

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                I hope so, i do

    • Rawtid

      interesting POV hadnt thought through it this way

      • RewindingtonMaximus

        Any problems adults have most likely started when they were kids. Kids are blank slates and will practice most of what they were taught all through their lives. I figure if you want men to be good to women, you have to teach boys to be good to girls first.

        • Rawtid

          totally agree. I agreed with your original post as well, just hadn’t thought of it that way

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            I never thought of it that way until i read an article about why people always tell little girls they are pretty but nothing else. The author made it a point to find some other way to compliment a little girl and realized she had a really hard time doing that.

            • AlwaysCC

              i keep seeing articles about that! my parents told me (and my siblings) how smart and cute/pretty/handsome we were ALLATAHM. i can’t imagine that being difficult to tell my own children. but i have recently come to the realization that i grew up at the end of the rainbow alongside a unicorn and a pot of gold so….

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                It always feel different when you realize how your life is compared to other peoples. We really don’t tell kidshiw smart, intriguing, or skillful thwy are, but we are quick to say how cute. Then you wonder why kids only talk about who is cute at school.

            • Rawtid

              yea thats true. Its funny bc growing up my fam/parents always drilled how smart & capable we were. That nobody else was any more capable or smart than us it was just a difference in application. Never had too many convos about being pretty or handsome. So now that I am an adult and people comment on my looks i always feel weird and find myself dismissing it like “im just a reg girl” etc, I’ve realized I’ve done this a lot particularly in the last 2-3 weeks. Not bc i think im ugly, but I was never taught or conditioned to rest on my looks or believe they’d get me anything just bc.

              • RewindingtonMaximus

                And that’s the point. Your conditioning made you focus on skills rather than your looks, but you met plenty of people in life who have it the opposite way.

                • Rawtid

                  most def

                  • RewindingtonMaximus

                    Glad you grew up the way you did, my parents tried to do the same but once i got sick, it was always about looks then, and i lost big time in the eyes of my peers.

        • afronica

          The thing about kids though, is that they mimic what they see. Preach and teach all you want, but if they see Daddy dipping out with someone who ain’t mama, or Uncle with a different chick each time he visits, that’s the message received. So, I think it really does begin with the adults.

          • RewindingtonMaximus

            I agree but i just don’t trust adults. They are supposed to be the teachers and yet can end up being the students in comparison to their children

  • Andrea

    Why is T.I. the poster boy for cheating again? Or just does everyone assume he’s cheating…because folks like Azelia think Tiny is Mediocre.
    I like how the Underwood’s have extra curricular activities in their marriage. You can’t be too mad at your husband’s mistress when your husband is willing to throw her in front of a train when he’s done. All in the name of making you First Lady. Cheating where everyone Wins! Minus the dead side-chick of course.

    P.S. “So, they were trippin in the VSB comment section. ” Who is Alex calling a “They” :)

    • It is unfair, from what we can tell T.I. doesn’t have any other kids running around (Dwyane Wade), no woman defiantly saying they were together (Tiger Woods) or filed for divorce on for cheating over 100 times and then getting taken back and we supposed to forget the bug put in the air (Kobe!)

  • D-Boy

    It’s not a gender issue anymore. I don’t know too many faithful people period. I’m not saying infidelity is the norm right now, but it’s becoming so common it’s all but cliche…something everyone does but no one admits.

    • Its true, we are inundated with more options than ever, where people slip up is they are too shook to play the dating game without having the safety net of at least one who wont go anywhere

  • kidvideo

    Women can find a guy that wont cheat, but he will bore u to death.

    • Men being willing to cheat has to do with how much they value relationships specifically and in general. Whether or not he bores his partners has little to do with fidelity.

      • kidvideo

        Whatever ninja…

        lol

    • I agree partially, so many women have resigned to the fact that relationships are about the adversity and drama they must overcome so when they get a good dude they hide behind their trust issues and insecurities because they cant take him seriously

      • I definitely agree. Some women need the drama to feel alive. If you need all the BS to feel alive, maybe you need to feel the emptiness inside you so that you can fill it with something you can actually live with.

    • Rachmo

      Boring can be pretty sweet

      • Some women get this quickly, and some women get it after having it beat into them (and sometimes literally) over time.

        • Rachmo

          My bff is to thank for this. I watched her relationship with her now hubs and they are not super exciting. And it’s nice to watch.

      • Freebird

        More marriages and monogs would last if more folks thought this way.

        • Rachmo

          Hey man, it can’t be a thrill a minute all the time. *shrugs*

        • camilleblu

          #WERD

      • LeeLee

        +1 I’ve had enough non relationship drama in my life. When I come home, I want peace.
        Boring, stable peace!

        • Rachmo

          Right! Let’s just go to Target for fun and call it a day

        • Deeds

          Glad others feel the same way. Sometimes I thought I was a weirdo because it seemed that everyone said women like drama in relationships, and I just want peace.

          • Rachmo

            All the upvotes

          • afronica

            Peace and occasional brunch.

      • h.h.h.
      • Boring Def.- Any action or activity a woman (or man) has little to no interest in.

        Outside of a relationship, I’m never boring. It’s only within one that this even becomes a thing, because I run the risk of doing something my partner doesn’t care for.

        This can only work if my partner is ok with entertaining themselves, but it’s well known that most ladies love a good peacock dance and many men are more than willing to hit the stage for y’all.

        Boring may be sweet, but going the distance will require ALL them ninjas from over there.

        http://media.tumblr.com/ca53fd96831b557b28a3f4e2c7b9ab77/tumblr_inline_n6gqxpo0oQ1so445j.jpg

        • Rachmo

          I’m dating an introvert that is a total creature of habit. Luckily we have an understanding that when I want to do my “spontaneous, night on the town, let’s try out this new bar and be cool” stuff I’m not expecting him to go. My friends can entertain me enough when I want crazy shenanigans. Heck sometimes my guy will even come along for the fucksh*t :-) My bf is a great guy but he can’t be everything.

          • CamCamtheGreat

            lmao I love the method you employed for censoring “fucksh*t.”

            • Rachmo

              For some reason Disqus won’t let me say sh*t but WILL let me say fuck. And fuck is my favorite word so I’ll take it.

          • It seems like you both have accepted each other for who you are, and you don’t count on him to be your personal jester. I love it, and wish the best for you.

            In my travels, I’ve found that many women bore EASILY. Most of this is through observation of social dynamics, and a few personal relationships. Honestly, most of the ladies who didn’t have this issue were too busy with their own endeavors to be in a relationship, or date. I’d love to hear more insight on what I’ve witnessed.

            • Rachmo

              Oh Trip before you go tooting my horn how do you think I figured this out? Born perfect? HA! No no no my brother a few other men before the current boo had to deal with a very difficult Rachmo who wanted them to be her all and everythang. And guess why? Bc I was sooo focused on being someone’s gf. That was wack. I was unhappy with myself and wasn’t working on fixing that. By the time the current boo met me I had my own interests to worry about and couldn’t be bothered to stress over men.

              Edit: I still stressed a bit but was able to brush it off easier with dancing and whiskey.

              • Thanks for the context Rach. Maturity seems to play a part in alleviating some of this, I just wonder if there’s something else, if anything I’m missing.

                • Rachmo

                  Like you yourself are missing? Or you are missing about the subject?

                  • Could be both LMAO… I’ve never really been the type to “do the most” when it comes to “entertaining” women either on dates or in relationships.

                    For me, it’s always been either you like my company and what I do in my everyday or we keep it movin’. No issues here. I’ve just noticed a tendency for many women to latch on to always wanting a little extra… always a touch more, constantly looking for what’s around the corner. A need for continuous excitement? That’s why when I see “boring” being something sought after, it hit me as strange.

                    Peace and absence of drama I get, but I’m still not completely convinced here. A man NEEDS to bring out passion in a woman. He doesn’t need to be an azzhole, but he has to do “something”.

                    Maybe it’s not a gender thing at all- I just see it from a male POV. My goal isn’t to point fingers, or lay blame. I’m also not trying to generalize, but I’m sure I’m not the only guy who’s experienced this. We are constantly put to task to keep things interesting. Peace and boredom is the new order of the day???

                    • Rachmo

                      I guess “consistent” is a better word and “peace” is an absolute. Plus just bc a guy is routine doesn’t mean he’s a total dud. My dude may get joy out of vacuuming but that doesn’t mean he’s not passionate or doesn’t have interesting conversation topics. This is a man that serenaded me on the first date with Spanish guitar so there’s romance there. I mean that some women get pretty tired of Mr. Exciting or Mr. Danger. For me when I’m looking long term I care more about can he chill with my Dad than take me to the newest awesomest thing ever and make my heart race and DANGER DANGER PASSION! Like, I’m good with a dude that’s want to chill and watch horror movies.

                    • Consistent… I get that. I guess when it’s time to settle down, predictability can be rewarded? (no shots fired or intended). A woman who knows how to chill and watch horror movies is all aces in my book!

                      Yoooo…he serenaded you on the first date? With Spanish guitar? He raised that bar fo sho.

                    • Rachmo

                      ” I guess when it’s time to settle down, predictability can be rewarded?”- I’m not even mad about that to be real. Everyone reaches a point when they are like okay I’m done, time to find someone to chill with and then pick more practical people. The bf tells me about his exes and there all this drama and craziness happening. I’m fun but not the wildest woman so he prob had to get that out of his system before he was good rocking with me.

                      And yeah he is a man of romantic extremes to offset my nonemotional displays haha

                    • Me and the BAE (love Agatha’s def!) have sorta settled in in a similar fashion and I can see where you’re coming from. She’d be the first to tell you I can be a bit of a mush, but I still feel the need to keep her on her toes (in my own loveable way). That bit has so much more to do with me than her ;)

                      The threat of being taken for granted is such a hard thing to disperse.

            • afronica

              I’ve known women that bore easily. They have tended to cycle through relationships of all kinds kind of quickly (romances, friendships, jobs, etc.). I’ve seen some of those women grow up and figure things out. I’ve also seen women in their fifties on the same carousel, up when encountering something or someone new, on the way down when things get stale and bailing out on things and people when something new and shiny catches their eye. I think it’s a maturity thing.

              And not to play t!t for tat, but I worry about guys stepping out because the relationship gets boring. Or they figure out I’m boring after being with me for a while. I think some women’s need for drama is real and internal. I do wonder sometimes though if women create drama as a way of keeping things fresh for a guy. Or she comes home with something vajazzled or tucked or a new dress, but the guy doesn’t really react the way she’d hoped. And then, there’s drama because of the non-reaction. Idk.

              I’m an only child and grandchild, so I’ve always amused myself. I seem to need more space and alone time than my friends. I am a pretty boring person myself, so I don’t expect a partner to entertain me. *shrug*

              • Thanks for responding. You’re right though, it happens on both sides of the fence. Thankfully I’m not dealing with this personally, but there has been such a history attached to this phenomenon that I felt a need for more inquiry. If I had a dime for every time I saw someone take a hit for not being engaging or entertaining enough, I’d make a bank teller very unhappy.

                From my male POV, I often wondered what was behind it all, and admittedly I don’t run into it as much as I’ve gotten older. Some people never get beyond this, and even I still have reservations about getting too comfortable/predictable/agreeable in a relationship. Boredom has always been a huge whammy, so I hope people can understand my WTF moment when a decent amount of support shows up for looking for some.

                • afronica

                  I understand your WTF moment. I hear and read a lot of chatter about keeping it fresh. But, like Rachmo, the successful relationships I see don’t really look like that. There seems to be a lot of Netflixing, hanging out at the apartment complex pool and eating dinner cooked at home in the good relationships I see. But I ain’t balling with Eve and Maximillion either, ya know?

                  • This is what i see and do too and I get no complaints. It’s nice to enjoy time together and just “be”. I got no problems enjoying the ride, but in general I can’t see couples laying in the cut forever. Something always has to give.

      • kidvideo

        *winks @ the headless horsewoman*

        • Rachmo

          HA @headless horsewoman

    • Headaches arent exciting for me tho. If stability and honesty is boring then shyyyttt I”ll take it…aint about to raise my blood pressure for the “thrill” lol

    • CamCamtheGreat

      #thisnigga

    • miss t-lee

      Nah. Just nah.

    • afronica

      Funny. A friend was trying to decide whether or not to go out with a guy she had known as a friend for a while. Knowing her dating history and what she valued, I asked her what she needed more – someone who would be faithful or someone who would be exciting. In the case of that particular guy, that’s what the choice was, but I wonder if that can be extrapolated to men in general.

    • Freebird

      this is twisted. but it aint far from the truth.

  • Yoles

    There are so many instances in which she (I’m just dealing with the women being cheated on like the OP) should most definitely leave… Cheating/Beating/Stealing/Berating etc…
    I can only speak for myself when I was back in the blush of youth:
    There is NOTHING in the world like seeing a regular dude cry begging you not to leave, explaining that he’s f’d up, he doesn’t know what’s wrong with him, you are the best thing that ever happened to him, it was a mistake, it won’t happen again etc…
    I know dudes that say female (used to include girls AND women) tears is like kryptonite to them even though they have seen them countless times… Imagine how powerful it is when you possibly never seen it before (why is a topic for another day) and this man that already as your heart in a vice grip is crying for/over you… Allowing you to see him at his most vulnerable.. Its like mendoza in the park just being overwhelmed and stuck, knowing you should leave, ought to leave, a part of you wants to leave and his tears melts all those feelings like they were a wicked witch in oz…
    For me it took: age, experience, resolve, being hurt more and more, nerves of steel and some other shyt I don’t have words for… Excuse the rambling.. Late, at work bla bla bla

    • Obsidian Files

      @Ms. Yoles:
      Question:

      In light of what you said, I’d like to get your reaction to the following:

      There appears to be a meme floating around the Black Internet, where the ladies seem to be quite upset; they bemoan the notion of a “low bar of expectations” for Black Men insofar as relationships and the like are concerned. Many of the ladies seem to be of the view that things such as fidelity are givens, and should be part of the package to begin with, that every or at least most Black Men should be able to meet.

      I’d like to get your sense of this notion, what your reaction to it is? Do you too, feel there is a “low bar of expectations” for Black Men insofar as relationships are concerned in our time? I invite other ladies reading along to participate as well. Yes, I’m working on a piece for J4G on the topic.

      Thanks!

      O.

      • Andrea

        I think a lot of women have a low bar of expectations for all men. Rich, poor, short, bald, physically disabled, olympic athlete, relationship expert, doctor, chef, humanitarian, or Tyrone.

        • menajeanmaehightower

          I agree here. When you expect little, you receive little. Add that to the fact, in general, it is HARD to find someone you actually can truly relate to (regardless of gender or race, friendship or relationship) and you have a perfect storm brewing.

          • Obsidian Files

            @Ms. Hightower, Ms. Andrea:

            In light of both your comments, I have the following question:

            Do either of you believers in the notion of soulmates?

            I ask because we have had a number of discussions here in the forum on the question of marriage and its role and meaning in contemporary Black American life; you in particular Ms. hightower, were keen to inform yours truly that the times have changed, and that people are together today because they want to be, not because they need to be, etc.

            It is my view that such a notion is doomed to fail for a goodly portion of African Americans, in large part because of the ladies themselves; Women have been observed forming and breaking relationshps of all kinds at much highger rates than do Men. This being the case, coupled with the times in which we live, all explains at least in part, why and how Black marriage has been on the rocks in recent decades -norr does it look to improve much in the coming years.

            While it would appear that Women in general have more pressing emotional neeeds, it is also clear that Men are either unable or uwilling to attempt to meet them, and that’s on top of having the kinds of relationship negotiaing skill that today’s world of relationship deamnds. While Women initiate divorces moreso than Men by a wide margin, we cannot leave out the very real possibility that for many Black Men, particularly those past 40 or so, the juice just ain’t worth the squeeze.

            We are discussing a similar topic currently over at J4G, where I made the case that given all of the facts and available evidence on the matter, it is not the responsibility of Men to attempt to “help” Women with their emotional turmoil; that is something Women and Women alone, can should and must get a handle on.

            There have been other pieces of evidence that the “best friends” model of marriage leaves quite a bit to be desired, by the ladies themselves (Lori Gottlieb wrote about this rather poignantly, in the NYT).

            For all of these reasons, it is my view that “soulmate marriage” will not work in the main, though I do concede it will for a relative minority of African Americans. The question then becomes, if we all think the enterprise and the high pricetag it came with, was worth it.
            What do you think?

            O.

            • menajeanmaehightower

              “It is my view that such a notion is doomed to fail for a goodly portion
              of African Americans, in large part because of the ladies themselves;
              Women have been observed forming and breaking relationshps of all kinds
              at much highger rates than do Men.”
              It looks like you are blaming the failure of a marriage on women.

              Do i believe in soulmates? Don’t know. Do i believe in marrying your best friend? Don’t know.

              I think i know the reasons why i may eventually get married.

              The best marriage i have ever seen on tv is Frank and Claire Underwood.

      • camilleblu

        Eh…fidelity should be part of the package IF that is what you, as a couple, have discussed and made a conscious decision to adhere to. I think that many people – men and women – lie about their intentions and/or beliefs regarding fidelity and therein lies the problem. There are billions of people on this earth. Go find you one that shares your core beliefs, and stop the madness. Having said that – I do think that many women have low expectations of black men, but I also think that many black men have low expectations of themselves.

        • Obsidian Files

          @Ms. Camille:
          Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated.

          a few questions:

          1. Would you agree that it is entirely possible to find someone who shares your values, but does absolutely nothing for you physically – who may in fact, repulse you?

          2. Infideilty rates in Black America are quite high – higher in fact, than in White America, and by a fairly wide margain, tracking well with other indices, such as the Baby Mama rate, STD infection rates, domestic abuse rates, and so forth. My question for you is, and we’re going to continue with the assumption that infidelity in Black America is a largely Black male thing, do you think this is a widespread phenomena – in other words, ALL Black Men are doing this – or do you think it’s a smaller minority?

          3. How many Black Women would be OK with their guy being essentially in an open relationship? If you could put a number on it, what would be the percentage?

          O.

          • camilleblu

            1 – of course it’s possible. meeting someone with your same values does not automatically mean that there will be an instant physical attraction betwixt you.
            2 – hard for me to say – but i will say that i personally do not believe that ALL black men are participating in infidelity.
            3 – i have absolutely no idea on this one – although i will say that it’s probably more women that most people would think. especially if they knew that they would not be judged for such a relationship – or if they could keep it a secret.

            • Obsidian Files

              http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/yet-more-proof-that-a-few-men-are-getting-most-of-the-action/

              @Ms. Camille:
              I posted this upthread for Ms. Andrea, but I thought you might be interested in taking a look. As you can see, it’s sourced from CDC data, circa a little over a decade ago – so admitedly a bit dated, but not too much.

              We also know again from CDC data, that Black Americans and females especially, have considerably higher STD infection rates.

              So, in relation to your reply to #3, it does raise some interesting questions, does it not? I mean, what if Black Women in our time – the freest Sistas on the planet bar none – are choosing the 20-10% Brothas – and are willingly going in on timeshares with them? Could that, explain at least to some extent, all the many and varied phenomena in the Black American SMP at this time?

              Your thoughts?

              O.

              • camilleblu

                before i attempt an answer – for clarity – are you saying that 80% of women go for 20% of brothas?

                • Obsidian Files

                  @Ms. Camille:
                  In a manner of speaking – yes.

                  I’m listening…

                  O.

                  • camilleblu

                    ok – a bit more clarification. please give me 2 or 3 of the phenomena of which you speak.

                    • @Ms. Camille:
                      Well, one set of phenomena, comes from the fact that OOW birthrates in Black American society are over 70% at this point. That has occurred in part due to the forces that have made the 20/80 Rule possible in the first place.
                      We can also say the same when it comes to the very high incidence of STD infection, particularly as it relates to Black Women.
                      And finally, there’s the little “experiment” I referred to upthread with Paul Carrick Brunson – which tracks dangerously close to the 20/80 Rule, as well as online dating services like Tinder and OKCupid, just to name a few.
                      O.

      • Yoles

        Obie

        i keep telling you that asking me these relationship centered questions for your research isn’t going to help you…

        i am of the mind that a relationship is whatever the people that are in it says it is… whether it be open or closed or what is accepted and the things not tolerated and even the expectations… i have no idea what the URL is for the black internet…

        black men and women are having the same issues as non blacks… women in every state are watching marriage numbers go down, divorce rates go out and out of wedlock children enter this world…

        cheating never has nor will it ever be a “black” issue

        now all this black marriage that are failing do you have the research that supports that it was infidelity, not money issues which was the number 1 reason for divorce in america

        people getting into relationships need to talk about their needs and wants and explore things together as they grow… more people are open to more things than society on a whole gives them credit for

        • KKay

          People don’t communicate and sometimes when they do, they outright lie about what they want or need so they can hang on to the person. I just want to knock them in the head with a piece of stove wood,as my grandmama would say. Because this type of situation never ends well.

        • h.h.h.

          i have no idea what the URL is for the black internet…

          Well, since you didn’t know what it is, that URL is actually http://www.justfourguys.com, where they give you hard hitting repartee, led by the omniscient Obsidian the observer…dont forget the twitter handle @ObsidianFiles at Twitter dot com!

          • Asiyah

            bwahahahahahahahaha

          • @Triple H:
            “Obsidian the Observer” – I like it!
            I see it’s starting to catch on…
            :)
            O.

        • @Ms. Yoles:

          “i keep telling you that asking me these relationship centered questions for your research isn’t going to help you…”

          O: Well, you never know until you try… ;)

          “i am of the mind that a relationship is whatever the people that are in it says it is… whether it be open or closed or what is accepted and the things not tolerated and even the expectations…”

          O: OK.

          “i have no idea what the URL is for the black internet…”

          O: LOL. That sector of the Internet wher Blacks are known to congregate; thus, “Black Twitter”, “Black Facebook”, “Black-themed websites” like here at VSB and the Root, Grio, MadameNoire, Clutch Online, and so forth…

          “black men and women are having the same issues as non blacks… women in every state are watching marriage numbers go down, divorce rates go out and out of wedlock children enter this world…”

          O: All true – however, they are much MORE pronounced in Black America. The question is how and why – and I am of the view that it may not be the usual suspects (read: the White Man) that is at the center of it.

          “cheating never has nor will it ever be a “black” issue”

          O: True again – but it IS much higher in Black America. The question has to be, WHY?

          “now all this black marriage that are failing do you have the research that supports that it was infidelity, not money issues which was the number 1 reason for divorce in america”

          O: I don’t recally ever making such an argument; but Prof. Ralph Richard Banks has given a pretty good treatment of the matter in his book “Is Marriage For White People?”

          http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-White-People-American-Everyone-ebook/dp/B004BDP002/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1403206544&sr=1-1&keywords=is+marriage+for+white+people#_

          “people getting into relationships need to talk about their needs and wants and explore things together as they grow… more people are open to more things than society on a whole gives them credit for”

          O: Hmm…that remains to be seen…

          Nevertheless, than you, madam! As always, a pleasure.

          O.

      • CamCamtheGreat

        I have a “low bar of expectations” for anyone who takes memes seriously.

        • Rachmo

          I’m giggling for real

        • @Cam:
          Have I offended thee in a past life, sir? Your comment here sounds more than a mere pithy one-liner in passing…what’s your beef?
          O.

          • CamCamtheGreat

            lol This comment wasn’t directed AT you so much as it in reference to the people who post and share the memes you mentioned…although, from your comment, it seems you may fall into this group after all. If that’s the case, take it how you will.

    • There is NOTHING in the world like seeing a regular dude cry begging you
      not to leave, explaining that he’s f’d up, he doesn’t know what’s wrong
      with him, you are the best thing that ever happened to him, it was a
      mistake, it won’t happen again etc…
      I know dudes that say female
      (used to include girls AND women) tears is like kryptonite to them even
      though they have seen them countless times… Imagine how powerful it is
      when you possibly never seen it before (why is a topic for another day)
      and this man that already as your heart in a vice grip is crying
      for/over you… Allowing you to see him at his most vulnerable.. Its
      like mendoza in the park just being overwhelmed and stuck, knowing you
      should leave, ought to leave, a part of you wants to leave and his tears
      melts all those feelings like they were a wicked witch in oz…

      I will put it to anyone who thinks like above like this. If you are so emotionally immature as a person that in order for someone to be emotionally vulnerable to you, you will accept someone crying and begging for you back after cheating, you have issues. In fact, it would be a drop-dead dealbreaker if I found out anyone I had been dating and/or sleeping with did something like this. At best, it shows poor communication skills and a lack of emotional intimacy. At worst, it shows a desire to passive aggressively control someone by holding issues over them and the fear and weakness that desire betrays.

      • Yoles

        I have ALWAYS been clear on here about hating cheating!! I dont abide nor condone that crap… wasn’t speaking about cheating… I made sure to list a host of other reasons why she should leave and gave an example of something that happened in my life… there was nothing mentioned that indicated that this was the only intamcy shown, just the shock of seeing a man cry… I actually thought men themselves would understand seeing that they often don’t cry or even say that can’t cry… Crying is a natural response and hearing that you would respond to tears with hardness because in your head its only done for manipulation instead of even trying to see why your partner is crying…

        I do not agree that tears are a sign of weakness , can and have they been used to manipulate? yes are they always? no…

        • What I was responding to wasn’t the tears as much as someone reacting so strongly to them. THAT is the emotionally immature part. If you have a certain feeling, someone’s tears shouldn’t sway you from your own feelings. That is what I have the problem with.

          EDIT: And if it makes me cold hearted that I won’t let my feelings be played with by tears…WELP!

          • camilleblu

            so – for clarity – you are saying that if seeing someone cry affects you – then you are weak??

            • Yes, absolutely. And also, lemme make it clear that this isn’t a gender specific thing either.

              • camilleblu

                can i ask you – does this line of thinking come from you being previously manipulated by someone’s tears?

                • I didn’t think about it until you asked, but looking back, I’ve had women and men try to manipulate me with tears. Miss me with that, and if you’re so desperate to do it, they can go F themselves.

                  For example, in the aftermath of me filing for divorce, the ex decided to treat me to a birthday dinner. I figured free food wouldn’t hurt (and I had free time before my plans for later that night), so I went along and brought my daughter with me. She somehow manipulated me into having me take my daughter to the bathroom so she could order a huge drink for herself, then started crying mid-dinner about “I’m sorry.” I mean full out boo-hooing to the point my daughter was scared of what was happening. I calmly asked repeatedly “what are you sorry for?” It got to the point where I had to ask for the check and hustle everyone out the door.

                  This is what I’m used to tears being used for.

                  • Obsidian Files

                    @Mr. Todd:
                    In your personal experience, who would you say is MORE likely to turn on the Waterworks: Black Women, or, White Women? Moreover, in your experience, who has been MORE effective at using this tactic – Black Women, or White women, and why?

                    Please feel free to elaborate. Thanks!

                    O.

                    • In my experience, it’s a bit of everyone, regardless of race or gender. Heck, I’ve had men turn on the waterworks for me, real talk. Everybody does that crap.

                    • CamCamtheGreat

                      You know there are more than two types of people in the world, right? It’s always Black vs. White with you, bro. These are not the only people that matter, nor is a comparison always necessary.

                    • @Cam,
                      Hello! Don’t think we’ve ever met before. Nice to meet you!

                      And yes, I am well aware that there are other folks in the world; I would have no problem comparing them either. I only made the comparison between Black and White because, let’s face it, they ARE the dominant racial groups in the USA with the most tenuous histories.

                      Another reason as to how and why I posed the query I did to Mr. Todd was because he has extensive romantic experience with Women from both “camps”. So I wanted to see if he saw any variance there.

                      But you are right about one thing: I’m not much for subtlety or nuance, and when possible, avoid both. I prefer clear lines of demarcation. “Muddiness” deeply vexes me.

                      :)

                      O.

                    • Asiyah

                      this is the dumbest question you have ever posed.

                    • @Ms. Asiyah:
                      Really? And why would that be, pray tell?
                      O.

                  • camilleblu

                    i see. thank you for answering that question.

          • afronica

            I want to gently, ever so gently, suggest that the things that engender the biggest response from us are the things we should most closely examine. Because there dragons be. Sorry to speak in fortune cookie.

            • I see what you mean because I’ve spent the past couple of weeks dealing with that stuff. Without putting everything out there, I found out a lot of stuff about people I knew that made me see them in a different light and caused me to check a lot of stuff about my past. It’s not as much that they did me dirty as much as when I saw the background, I lost a lot of respect for certain people, especially when in a number of cases I wouldn’t have minded doing what they wished if they were open about it.

              I will say a lot of people (mostly, though far from exclusively women) have tried to exploit my boundaries, occasionally succeeding. It made me realize why I pulled the plug on some many things so quickly, and instead of thinking that I can MacGuyver my way out of certain situations, I should learn to speak to people so that I know what the drill is and avoid them as needed.

  • shalonda282

    Yeah you can miss me with that cheating is the norm nonsense. An unhealthy relationship will eat away at your soul and take you to places you never thought you’d go. I’d rather be single. Too many people look to relationships for fulfillment and that’s just not how it works. A good relationship can increase your purpose but it shouldn’t be your purpose (I think that sounded better in my head).

  • I have a major issue with dudes who cheat. MAJOR. The cheating part isn’t the major issue, per se, as much as what it represents: a complete lack of knowledge of self. Dudes aren’t manning up and confronting what it is they really want out of themselves and life. If you want to have multiple girls, go ahead and hump them. Just make sure that they know the deal and can have informed consent.

    There are two broad categories of why men cheat though. The first one is to sate the ego, to prove a sense of self-efficacy, to show the world that they aren’t worthless. If that’s the case, just stop chasing nani. Go coach a little league team, fix up your car, learn to cook and clean, take a few college course, do whatever gives you a sense of accomplishment. Just keep your D away from women until you feel that you’re a worthwhile human being that can accomplish whatever one wishes.

    The other category is that men aren’t honest in what they want in a relationship. Believe it or not, there are men in 2014 that get nervous if their woman likes head to much or wants to do @nal. On the other end of the spectrum are men who like the idea of having $ex for pleasure with multiple women, then having a life partner they can truly be intimate with, or exploring the world of $exuality with someone they trust. These men need to be able to sit down early on (not like the first few sentences, but realistically within the first few dates) and spill out what they want and need in a relationship. More importantly, they have to be willing and able to handle women just straight walking away from them.

    Hopefully, people can compromise and work out what they really want $exually in a relationship. That said, people have to be willing to talk, and the man has to be willing to lead with his desires, not whatever BS that is going to get a woman’s consent to $ex.

    • Todd coming thru with that knowledge

    • Obsidian Files

      @Mr. Todd:
      Now, rationally speaking, I agree with everything you said; however, if one accepts the most premises of EvoPsych – and we do (me both directly and indirectly, via the discipline/study itself and as well, Game; you, indirectly by way of the latter) – then we both know that what you said simply doesn’t wash in realtime.

      Men have very good reasons, from an evo-POV, to look on Women who are just a bit “too good” in giving oral s*x, with suspicion – it’s a way of informing him that she may be unchaaste, and as such a Paternity Certainty risk – a HUGE issue in Black America, that, once again, our putative Bestest and Brightest just cannot be bothered to take seriously to inveistage in a scholarly way. Too busy fighting the good fight agsinst Mr. Charlie, dontcha know.

      Similarly, if Black Men told many Black Women that they had no intention to marry or even LTR them up, merely to have them as casual s*x partners, or failing that, if they wished to bring additional s*xual partners into their existing relationship, just how many Sistas would go along with that? To ask the question is to answer it. Deception in mating, which occurs in both s*xes (and actually occurs MORE on the female side of the ledger – but that’s a long overdue discussion for an another day), occurs for a very necessary reason: because it solves adaptive problems of mating, the process by which we put our genes into the future.

      None of this is meant to justify or rationalize anything, but rather, to explain recurring phenomena, with an eye toward understanding and remediating it.

      Because God knows the Black community needs it…

      O.

      • Here’s the thing though: paternity is ALWAYS uncertain. You can try to stop that risk as much as one would try to stop the sun from rising. Why worry about something you can’t control? It’s smarter to just go out and have fun.

        To answer your second question, I would say “more than you’d think.” I’m not talking the formal swinging/polyamory community either (though one of these days, I’m going to say f*ck it and hit up one of the 50-11 Black swinger parties that take place in the DC area). There are a lot of women who know of and OK of occasional affairs much as they’d approve of their man going fishing or to a ball game with his friends. Would I say these women are the majority? No. But they aren’t that rare either.

        The key is to recognize what you can and cannot control and live you life from there.

    • Well, I think we need to look at this from an inductive standpoint. Things become apparent when you look at it from a bottoms up perspective.

      As men, we know the primary interest involved in the pursuit of women is sexual (we knew this before Darwin, and we really could be ignorant of evolution and still have a pretty firm understanding of such a concept). A woman may have a great personality, might be very successful, might have a lot of dreams, goals, ambitions etc, however, none of that is the reason why you’re spitting game, or buying drinks, or cracking jokes, or texting and speaking late at night for four hours. The primary driver of all the actions the man is taking are for the pursuit of sex. In other words, whether it’s courting, dating, hell even in relationships, the reason why a man is treating a woman differently than he treats other women and even other men whose he probably known longer, is primarily driven by a desire for sex. Now the question I have to ask is that, is that unique to just “one” woman?

      On the other hand, during that same period, aka pre-relationship stage, the primary motivator for a woman isn’t sex, but it’s qualification. Sex could occur, it might not occur, but it’s not the primary motivator. There are many men women are attracted to (hell in our day and age, many women are having sex with them), but they will self-admittedly avoid having sex early on because they are motivated by a desire to qualify the man for something much greater than sex, much more intimate and having sex too early on might ruin the chances of that happening. The ultimate purpose of the qualification process is to move to the next level and having a relationship. Now the question I have is, is that line of thinking and expectation unique to just one man?

    • moderation

    • Your second paragraph is pure gospel. I know so many people that will deliberately set their blessings on fire just to prove it wouldn’t work out, anyway.

      • I’ve seen that before. If it’s that serious, why date? Save the money, purchase some adult cinema and novelties, and move on with your life.

  • Birthday boy checking in…

    Cheating is like the word implies, you’re not playing fair, leave them as single as you’re portraying and see how that works out for you. People want the security of relationships not the responsibility of one. Relationships are optional, just don’t be with them, it could all be so simple.

    As for the cheated, same rule applies you can just leave. You don’t need evidence admissible on court to prove your case. You don’t need to catch them in the act and stressing them about infidelity will only cause, more infidelity. Just be out.

    • Obsidian Files

      Happy birthday, Tristan! Best wishes.

      O.

    • Andrea

      Happy Birthday!!!!

    • Happy birthday my dude!

    • Camilleblu

      Happy Birthday Triz-ni-ee!

    • Sigma_Since 93

      Happy Born day T!

    • IcePrincess

      HAPPY BDAY TRISTAN! #TURNDOWNFOWHAT

    • esa

      happy birthday to youu ~*~

    • b sweet

      Happy Birthday Tristan!!

    • CrayolaGirl

      Happy Birthday!

    • Happy birthday, dude!

    • Rachmo
      • My two favorite things…..I’m touched

        • Rachmo

          Anything for #bae

      • Lea Thrace

        This gif tho. The pizza!!!

      • camilleblu

        lol…he is GETTIN’ IT!!

      • Reemo

        Swag him out

    • BreezyX2

      Happy Birthday Tristan!!!

    • Keisha

      Happy Birthday!!! Have a good one! :-)

    • Yoles

      Big Ups on your Born Day!! ???????????? Enjoy

    • Michelle

      Happy Birthday!
      I hope you enjoy your day today.

    • PaddyfotePrincess

      Happy birthday! Enjoy it to the fullest.

    • Tentpole

      Happy Birthday

    • menajeanmaehightower

      Happy birthday.

    • “People want the security of relationships not the responsibility of one.” BOOM

      Look at all the sense you just made.

      I don’t know why people wait around for stuff to get worse. If you’re pretty sure they’re cheating, leave. The longer you wait for “proof” the longer you have to talk yourself out of it or come up with excuses for someone else’s behavior – which you should never have to do.

      My heart really goes out to all the women who’ve been so broken down by relationships that they start to think ish like cheating is expected and that they have no option but to deal. :/

      • Sweet Ga Brown

        *truth sprinkles

        • afronica

          *cousin to tidday sprinkles*

          • camilleblu

            lol…you so silly

    • towninc

      “people want the security of relationships not the responsibility of one” – so true

    • Freebird

      happy birthday.

    • Sweet Ga Brown

      Happy Born Day!!!

    • Lea Thrace

      Happy Born Day Tristan!

    • h.h.h.
    • Wild Cougar

      Happy Birthday big boy! *winks*

    • Val

      H|a|p|p|y B|i|r|t|h|d|a|y!

    • Medium Meech

      Happy Birthday! . I don’t know how this stuff works.

      • nillalatte

        close the quote … .

    • God Shammgod

      Happy Birthday!

    • Happy Birthday to my favorite young’un! Have a good day and mail me some dang cake!

    • miss t-lee
    • Kema

      *Does a b-day twerk* Wait… I got a cramp *Limps off* Happy Birthday!!!!

    • AlwaysCC

      happy cake day!

    • CNotes

      Great comment and Have a wonderful birthday!!

    • WIP

      Happy birthday!

    • BeautifullyHuman

      Happy Born Day!!

    • Happy Birthday!

    • Agatha Guilluame
    • Asiyah

      ¡Feliz Cumpleaños!

    • afronica

      Yay! It’s Tristan Day! Enjoy it!

    • nillalatte

      Happy B’day Tristan. Hope you have a wonderfully Tristan day! :)

    • Ms TLC

      Sigh so I went from a day early to a day late…Happy Birthday! Hope it was a good one :-D

  • Obsidian Files

    Well hello Ms. Maya,
    I guess it’s true – small world, six degrees of separation and all that. Hard to believe we’re in the same city, and yet, we see it so very differently. Philly has a rather high STD infection rate, Baby Mama rate, and infidelity rate among its Blacker sections, and this has been the case for decades; I’ve long known this.

    Curious that, from what I read by you above, that you do not.

    Yesterday, I discussed what is known in some circles as the 20/80 Rule: that, under certain conditions where Women are completely freed up from the constraints on their mating choices, they will tend to gravitate toward the roughly top 20% of Men to mate with. Now, as I said yesterday, it is important not to make the mistake that 80% of the ladies will do this; rather, that some80% of the mating opportunities will tend to be monopolized, or failing that, “first dibs” will be had by the aforementioned top 20%. This is very important to note in the light of the current discussion here.

    As Kid Video rightly notes below, just about any Woman who wants it can get a partner who will remain faithful and loyal to her; the problem of course, and again keeping things within the context of the times in which these ladies live, is that said males are not deemed or seen as attractive mating options, at least not early on. Put that together with the aforementioned top 20% – and Mr. T.I. would definitely qualify as a member – and everything is illuminated.

    Human mating history has shown us that what the ladies you quoted in your piece said, is indeed correct: Women can and will, for the right guy and under the right circumstances, be OK with their guy having some on the side. Generally speaking, the deeper into the 20% he is, the more likely she is to be OK with it. Again, history is rife with examples of this.

    The question is why? Especially in a time when Women, and for our purposes here Black Women, “dont need no Man” – that IS the mantra that has been drilled into all our heads, is it not? Why are so many Black Women, so very cool with their guy having some on the side, when they don’t need him, and when there are clearly other Men who would not cheat on them?

    Answer: Hypergamy. Actually, when it comes to Black Women in Black America at the dawn of the 21st century, Hypergamy on Steroids.

    Lance Armstrong style.

    The current climate in which all of us lives, has in truth both been optimized – and which incentivizes – Black Women to continue to select for the relative Mr. T.I.’s of the world, while considering his philandering a tolerable cost of doing business – if not seeing it as a slight turn-on.

    Preselection for the win. Again.

    Like Philly, and I’d say even moreso, ATL is a very interesting SMP to observe and study, and again, sadly, Black Eggheads in the Ebony Tower just don’t see it as important enough to do so. As a result, we continue to look through a glass darkly on these matters.

    But the logic is sound – all indications are that Black Women can and will continue to select the Mr. T.I.’s of the world as “first round” mating options for as long as they’re able to do so (of course, there are many Sistas who simply are not able to make that choice, due to their own inability to get into such a Brotha’s orbit) – and of those who do, like Ms. Tiny – the moment they take your advice, and leave such a Brotha, there will be any number of Sistas, eager to take her place.

    Which explains why so many of them stick around.

    After all, as so many of you Womenfolk know all too well, Alpha Guys are hard to find.

    Now adjourn your arses…

    O.

    • Andrea

      I’m having trouble understanding the 20/80 rule. The part “some80% of the mating opportunities will tend to be monopolized”…they are being monopolized by which group? And how that relates to the most eligible men…men at or above the 80th percentile.

      Ohhhh wait….I googled. Is this what your saying:
      Only 20 percent of the men (those considered to have the highest status) are having 80 percent of the $ex, with only 20 percent of the women (those with the greatest $exual willingness); the remaining 80 percent, male and female sit out

      • Obsidian Files

        Hello Ms. Andrea:
        No. That is not what I am saying.

        Throughout the animal kingdom, and within humans, there will invariably be more bachelors than spinsters, due to the inherent asymmetry in terms of mating value between the s*xes; females are the more choosier s*x, which means that there will be fewer spinsters.

        What this means in terms of what I am discussing, is that Black America has seen a very noticeable uptick in mating behaviors on the part of the ladies, that bottleneck toward the 20% of Black Men. They monopolize the mating opportunities because of what Black Women Want.

        Now, to be sure, “all” Black Women won’t do this, but I think it is fair to say, based on the evidence we do have on hand, that enough of them do do this – I would argue a majority – to account for all of the phenomena we see in contemporary Black American mating life.

        Hope this clarifies things.

        Questions?

        O.

        • Andrea

          Ohhhh I get it now. Thanks for explaining further. Very interesting!

          • Obsidian Files

            http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=20-80%20Rule

            This is a somewhat crude definition of the 20/80 Rule; I’ll see if one of my usual haunts for Game knowledge has it…

            O.

            • Obsidian Files

              http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/08/04/yet-more-proof-that-a-few-men-are-getting-most-of-the-action/

              @Ms. Andrea:
              You’ll want to note that the source data is the CDC, circa 2002 – so a bit dated, granted, but not by much.

              Note also, that the data isn’t broken out for Black Americans – and we do know, again confirmed by CDC data, that Black Americans, females especially,, have a much higher infection rate wrt STDs of varying stripe. Here in Philly it’s been off the chain in the Blacker sections for quite some time.

              The implications here could be explosive – which is right up my alley….

              :)

              O.

              • Andrea

                Thanks Boo!

                • Obsidian Files

                  @Ms. Andrrea:
                  My pleasure. :)

                  I think all of this really sheds a light on some old saws that have had great currency and cultural force in Black America for quite some time now – for example, the idea that there is a “shortage” of Black Men to go around -and often, things like jail, homicide and the like are trotted out to account for how and why this is by the Sistahood – when the truth appears to be, that there is a “shortage” of the Brothas BLACK WOMEN MOST DESIRE.

                  Huge difference.

                  Please allow me to riff a bit on this here.

                  I don’t know if you were around back in Mar when I posted a special report with my evening with Mr. Paul Carrick Brunson; I went to attend his “Flow Dating” event here in Philly as it would give me a chance to do a bit of field research.

                  I chatted to more than a dozen ladies that evening, and several of them noted that my flow dating sheet, which all of the participants were given, was completely filled out with female names. That prompted me to checkiut the forms of the ladies to see if theirs were also so filled out –

                  and they were not. In fact, far, far from it.

                  Quite a few had barely a few names on it(!), despite the fact that that, by design, they talked to the same number of Men that I did Women(!!). How could this be??

                  Simple: Hypergamy. On Lance Armstrong steroids.

                  The Sistas in attendance, despite being at an event that is truly groundbreaking insofar as Black folk are concerned, with a crowd that was essentially handpicked by PCB himself, and that he had gone to extraordinary lengths to be certain that the s*x ratios of Black Men to Black Women were dead even, going so far as to call in Brothas from a whiskey tasting event around the corner, STILL were ONLY checking for that 20-10% of Brothas(!).

                  Fascinating.

                  PCB and I are still talking about that event and what the results I noticed means, but based on the above and what I’m sharing with you here and everyone in the forum, I have come to the conclusion, that with increased freedoms and opportunity for Sistas, also comes the very real likelihood of De Facto Harems in Black America – which totally upends everything we thought we knew about mating along these lines.

                  Thoughts?

                  O.

                  • camilleblu

                    question – did you look at any of the other brotha’s charts? if so – were they as complete as yours, or did they fall more along the lines of the sista’s charts?

                    • Obsidian Files

                      @Ms. Camille:

                      Good question – no, I did not. However, given what we know about the economics of the mating market at any given time, it is not unreasonabole to asssume that the majority of the Brothas in attendance were, like me, quite satisfied with the overall presentation and selection of the Sistas in the round, and would have made off with any one of them in the main. I’m still trying to get a sitdown with PCB so we can go over the data he’s colllected from his “Love Tour”, which comprised five cities.

                      Heck of a social experiment on mating in Black America!

                      O.

                    • camilleblu

                      lol, i doubt that many of the brothas were *like you* O…

                    • Obsidian Files

                      @Ms. Camille:
                      So I’ve been told by quite a few ladies…

                      ;)

                      O.

                  • Andrea

                    That brings me back to the summer of ’93. I got to research synchronization effects of the male photinus pyralis. Meaning I had to catch a bunch of lightning bugs. You know the girls stay in the bushes. They are a bish to catch. Its only the dudes you see flying around…it was very easy to stick em in my glass jars with a little slice of apple. Male competition for the female Photinus pyralis is tough. They communicate by flashing back at each other. And tryna get a sista to flash with you ain’t easy. Our polygraph machines wasted a lot of good paper. The research on this topic that eventually came out of the lab I was working in showed…. “Winners outflashed rivals”. We/they saw that flash synchronization, the males combining their light powers to fake like it was one dude with a big light….was ‘the game’ needed to keep the female talking. I think that would be a kind of hypergamy on a summer night.

                    • Obsidian Files

                      @Ms. Andrea:
                      Yes, one reason males of varying species form coalitions is precisely what your lightening bug research showed – to increase the overall group’s mating opportunties. Among humans, we would call this a “crew”, or a Wingman.

                      I’m still working on it, but if the early signs are accurate, it will mean an end to the Myth of the Dearth of Black Men (by the way, in ATL, a stop on PCB’s love tour, there were MORE Black Men who showed u, than Black Women!); it will highlight the fact that far from the conventional wisdom, Black Women are quite agentic, empowered to make mating decisions in a way that their Sistas from previous ears could only ream of. Of course, it would also mean that they would have to be held to account for said mating decisions…and the consequences could prove to be quite profound.

                      And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

                      O.

                    • Andrea

                      That gave me chills.

More Like This