I don’t remember when exactly I first heard about “The Game” — Neil Strauss’ best-selling look into the pick-up artist (PUA) community — but I do remember being 1) confused by the name “The Game” (I don’t know what it is, but something about titling something “The Game” just doesn’t compute with me. It’s almost like it’s hitting ctrl-alt-delete on my brain. Seriously, it took me almost three years to completely grasp that the rapper The Game’s name was actually The Game. I kept believing I was seeing a typo or something) and 2) intrigued by the concept of PUA.
I’ve always thought that the dating game, or, more specifically, a person’s success in the dating game was much more dependent on science than art, so hearing that there were actual concretized rules that all men (Yes. All) who had frequent success with attractive women followed made sense.
Included among these laws are specific terminology like ”cat-string theory” — the idea that you keep a woman engaged just enough to hold her attention, but never give her your full attention — and ”the neg” — a backhanded compliment/slight dig that serves a dual purpose (1. To give a man an opportunity to expose how witty he can be, and, more importantly, 2. To show a woman that he’s not the slightest bit impressed by her beauty)
According to members/followers of the PUA community, once you remove the harshness of some of the terminology, all it does is give some actual meat to ambiguous terms such as “swagger” and “je ne sais quoi,” and I can’t say I don’t agree with that assertion.
Basically, whether it’s conscious or not, the men who are generally thought to have an attractive/alluring (even though I hate this term, I have to use it here) “swag” generally follow the PUA rules to a T when approaching women. I mean, “negs” are frequently incorporated by any guy from 5 to 55 whose ever flirted with an/or teased a woman, and any guy who’s ever had any type of consistent success with women knows that (generally speaking) the best way to spark a woman’s interest is to act like you’re really not that interested in her at all. This isn’t “game” as much as it’s just best practices.
Predictably, many, if not most, women are loathe to publicly admit that game actually works – ironically, some women will make this passionate anti-game argument while they’re knee-deep in the process of being gamed – and here’s three reasons why this reluctance exists.
1. Admitting that game works completely contradicts one of the most prominent and protected tenets of womanhood: All women are unquestionably and undoubtedly unique.
Ever since the day they were born (or, if you’re a woman from Harlem, The Hill District, or Lincoln Heights, ever since their mothers decided to name them “Shauntananique“), most women have had the idea that they were extremely special and extremely precious repeatedly beat into their heads. Now, this isn’t a bad thing. Any good parent is going to do everything they can to make sure their daughter has a healthy portion of self-esteem. I mean, if I ever decide to have a daughter and she comes to me crying about not getting invited to a classmate’s sleepover, I probably won’t tell her “Hey, young daughter of The Champ, don’t worry about it. You weren’t invited because you’re not really all that special, and, well, you’re not really all that special so get used to disappointment.”
But, with this perpetual positive reinforcement cunninglingus comes a natural aversion to accepting the idea that game works because, well, game works by reinforcing the idea that each individual woman isn’t really all that special. The sense of ”Well, maybe that happened to her…but that damn sure aint gonna happen to me,” doesn’t fly because, with slight variations, the same techniques that worked with Debbie in Des Moines work just as well with Tisha in Tampa, Brittany in Boston, and Changpu in Chicago (she’s an exchange student).
2. Most of the men associated with the concept of game/PUA are, for lack of a better term, creepy weirdo motherf*ckers.
Let’s just say that when the most prominent members of a community go by names like “Mystery” and look like this…
…it just might be a tad difficult to accept that what they’re saying might actually work.
I even admit to being taken aback by Neil Strauss’ appearance and relatively effeminate voice when seeing him on a couple talk shows in the last week. He just didn’t look or sound anything like how I expected.
Thing is, the fact that these guys aren’t traditionally attractive should actually give them more credibility. I mean, men like Boris Kodjoe and Idris Elba can receive female interest just by walking in the room and saying “Huh,” so I’d be more interested in hearing exactly how a guy who looks like he should be selling me skinny ties at Urban Outfitters managed to be “successful.”
3. “Game” continues to have a somewhat undeserved negative connotation.
From “Your Degrees Won’t Keep You Warm At Night” (It’s not a game with the “quoting paragraphs from your own book” game)
Although many associate the phrase running game with deception and subterfuge, game is nothing but seduction, and men do it to convince the one being “gamed” to do something the gamer wants them to do. It’s actually more advertising than artifice, and while it’s usually used in a dating or relationship context, you don’t have to be a “pimp” or “playa” to practice or appreciate it.
It’s a Mercedes commercial that makes you fantasize about how it would feel to drive up to your high school reunion in a new Benz coupe. It’s what every career counselor worth their salt would advise you to put on your resumes and cover letters to ensure your prospective employers see you in the most positive light possible. It’s all the flattering pictures on your Facebook page you’ve deemed taggable, lest one of your friends see what you actually look like.
To be completely frank, the best answer to “How can I tell if I’m being gamed?” is “Are you alive?”
Anyway, people of VSB: How do you feel about the concept of “game,” and why do you think women are relunctant to admit that they’ve been (or are being) gamed?
Also, do you think there’s some truth to the idea that the same general techniques work with most (if not all) women, or do you think it’s completely bullsh*t.
—The Champ
- Your Degrees Wont Keep You Warm at Night: The Very Smart Brothas Guide to Dating, Mating, and Fighting Crime is now available on Kindle for $9.99
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First woot woot!
congrats! this may be the closest i’ll ever get…
In terms of the basic principles of dating, I think men should have some type of strategy/ “game” for approaching women. There’s a difference between a man who says “Hey miss, I saw you across the room and was captivated by your smile” versus “Ay yo shawty, what’s really good. You gotta man!?”. Women have to be able to size up a man based on first impressions. The use of “game” is a great determinant for understanding the type of man you’re dealing with. The effort, time, and general approach are all contributing factors.
second??
That’s what she said.
well played
he got game
So, “game” keeps folks winning at every level. I am a sport-type person, so game is the business to me. This is what I mean. When I spot game from a dude I like, I’m sort of impressed (as long as said game isn’t on some extra stuff). I don’t like the whole backhanded compliments thing though. But what does work for me is this:
Me: So what you doing today?
HIm: You…..
Awesome! LOL, I’m joking. Seriously though, this exchange is what works for me.
Him: I’m cooking, so why don’t you come over?
Me: Okay….
Simple enough, food is king with me. I love it and can fall in love with any man who can wield his way in the kitchen.
The thing I do take issue with is when a man plays games. There’s a difference between game and playing games. Game is doing what you need to get where you want to be…WITHOUT hindering the progress of someone else. Playing games is doing what you can do to get what you want…while stepping on anyone and not giving a damn about who they hurt.
That whole “giving just enough of attention to keep them hanging on,” is crazy…for the men. Women are crazy. We’re just one situation away from flipping out on you men. And I believe that if you men knew just how close you came to death when you hurt that perfectly good woman who wanted nothing more than you to be the man you said you would…maybe y’all would act right.
So to recap, game is good. Playing games is bad. And no, they are not one in the same.
“Playing games is doing what you can do to get what you want…while stepping on anyone and not giving a damn about who they hurt.”
thank you for breaking that down. That makes such simplistic sense, I’m mad I didn’t deduce that for myself.
again MO… i’m sticking with you…
“Game is doing what you need to get where you want to be…WITHOUT hindering the progress of someone else. Playing games is doing what you can do to get what you want…while stepping on anyone and not giving a damn about who they hurt.”
i hate back handed compliments but i’m sure some of those other things work on me… and yes i know the difference between game and playing games.. geesh i need to step my html game up
i have read on numerous blogs that women can NOT refuse a free meal… i wonder if this is in the game book as well
Nope
Game prohibits buying things for women when they have not yet earned it.
Back handed compliments, as with any type of humor, is based largely in the delivery. The right joke with the wrong delivery can make Eddie Murphy sound like a straight up d*ck.
*The right joke with the wrong delivery can make Eddie Murphy sound like a straight up d*ck.*
Aint it the truth.
Nope. If I don’t like the dude, why would I have dinner with him?
@Mo,
Seriously, good insight.
Write the book, Anna Mae!
Girl, I working on getting my first writing job!!! Woot, woot! That’s given me the confidence to start this thing for real. Thanks for the encouragement
I can get behind this.
Oh and this: “Me: So what you doing today?
HIm: You…..” never fails. Except replace Me with Him and Him with Me. *snickering*
Um, why do guys act like game doesnt work on them? Trust me the ‘pay no attention to the attractive/popular person’ works just as well on men. Why? Because almost everyone wants what’s out of reach.
Somewhat true.
Depends on what you mean. If you’re the wallflower I won’t come talking to you. If you’re talking to everyone else but me, you just look like a bitch, so I’m not talking to you. So what scenario are you trying to convey in which that would work?
It’s not talking to everyone but you. It’s talking to everyone in your group while you are right there but you. However, this type of game is better employed against targets who are 8s and higher – people so used to being the center of attention that not being acknowledged is confusing and intriguing. If the target rates lower, their normal self esteem and social interactions are at a point where they just accept the behavior as normal or just build up negative feelings.
i often do the inverse which is. when im with a group of girls giving a lot of attention to a specific guy or group of guys. i play reserve on the side. im still there i chime in the conversation every so often with a calmly spoken (coyly delivered) witty response but most of all i let the other girls dominate. but here is the important part: whenever a guy talks a make eye contact but never really respond other than a small head nod or silent ‘ha’.
if its a group of guys. ill quietly engage one of the group members in a brief side comment. then go back to my fake shyness.
this wasnt an intentional development im actually not shy. i started employing this strategy originally because 1-i get nervous around guys i find attractive (yeah im that girl), 2- ive seen many a chick get embarassed by doing too much 3-im not friendly im just polite (there is a difference).
mind you this only works on certain types of guys. your standard manslore wont bite. and thats fine.
“1-i get nervous around guys i find attractive (yeah im that girl), 2- ive seen many a chick get embarassed by doing too much 3-im not friendly im just polite (there is a difference).”
Number three is me to a tee. I’m very polite, but not necessarily friendly. Not a bytch, but just not that naturally friendly type. And, yes…girl who call into category 2 makes it harder for us all. Thirsty broads are the worst.
Employing a fake strategy to get a guy. How genuine.
You’re talking about the attractive/popular guy. Game is talking about *any* woman.
If, as a woman, you tried that ignore thing on a guy not in the top 15% of attractiveness, he’d just figure that you weren’t interested in him (that’s probably been his life experiencew anyway.) The guy in the top 15% believes that you *should* be interested in him. By contrast, probably a full 50%+ of women think that any given man *should* be interested in them.
true…but almost all men have egos…and they are used to having them stroked one way or the other. playing hard to get is a woman’s form of ‘game’.
trust me.
Most men don’t get their egos stroked at all. All men would like to, but only a small subset of men ever really do.
I can attest to this…
“That whole ‘giving just enough of attention to keep them hanging on,’ is crazy…for the men.”
Women do the same thing, tho.
this comment is perfect in every way.
champ’s numbers 1 and 2 are arguable, but his number 3 is spot on. this is because women don’t recognize the difference between game and playing games, and they don’t acknowledge the fact that EVERYONE who has success in dating has a little game.
“I don’t like the whole backhanded compliments thing though. But what does work for me is this”
a “neg” isn’t a backhanded compliment as much as it’s just a tease/flirt, though. if you neg effectively, women won’t realize they’re being negged.
Exactly.
Noted!
There’s a difference between game and playing games
THIS is why i love Mo like cooked food.
Thanks! *e-hugs*
girl preach.
this entire comment is the truth dot com.
men who play games… wack. men who have game… sexy.
Exactly! Game doesn’t have to be a bad thing per se. I laugh when I hear men saying “Why do I have to play the game”…because you will if you want something in life. Game goes with anything, even at the job. There’s certain things we need to do to get what we want in life. Even the way you approach a convo with someone is game if there’s an end result or gain. It’s really not that big of a deal to me.
When I like a man, he has no clue but I’ll get close to him in some way even if it’s a small question I ask him…that’s game. I don’t really care about the question, I’m using the question as a means to speak with him in hopes that he’ll ask me out or something.
“Him: I’m cooking, so why don’t you come over?
Me: Okay…”
This is probably the polar opposite of what The Champ was talking about. I guess it can be pulled off as game at some point, but…
why? because cooking for someone is so obvious irt cant really be considered game? (im not being sarcastic, i really want to know)
Theme of what the Champ was describing as game:
“ncluded among these laws are specific terminology like ‘cat-string theory’ — the idea that you keep a woman engaged just enough to hold her attention, but never give her your full attention… To show a woman that he’s not the slightest bit impressed by her beauty… any guy who’s ever had any type of consistent success with women knows that (generally speaking) the best way to spark a woman’s interest is to act like you’re really not that interested in her at all.”
The “let me cook you dinner” bit reeks of trying too hard or doing to much during the courting phase. And the fact that it is so cliched just emphasizes the awkwardness. Everything should seem organic and natural, this is anything but.
Not saying you can’t cook for your girl, but doing it to impress her early on is counter productive. I haven’t yet read any books of that nature, but imagine this move would be in the “Not as seen on TV: Stuff that looks good on sitcoms and romantic comedies but should not be tried in real life” chapter.
Negative homie. It’s the ultimate in game because it’s not trying too hard, it’s showing interest in a real way…and if done correctly can cut out all that “extra” that men/women seem to engage in. The cooking thing works primarily when a man/woman has already got down physically. Love Jones is a terrible example of this though. When he cooked for her the morning after…lol, I thought it was wack.
But had he have cooked for her, say, a few dates down the line, it would have been sweet. Why? Cuz it shows that he’s interested beyond the physical…or it shows that he can be a gentleman and maybe he DOESN’T want more, but it lets her know she’ll enjoy spending time with him regardless.
At any rate, this was what works for me. It may not work with everyone, but for me, any man who cooks will have my attention…at least for a little while
I think we are talking about different points in the relationship and different definitions of game. When most people think of “game” in terms of guys they think of getting from point A to point Skeet. I think people think of games in for women in terms of getting from point Skeet to point CLANK CLANK. So I don’t really disagree with what you’re actually saying, just with what you call game.
I agree wholeheartedly Meech. As a man, I consider “game” the actions and behaviors that lead you (the woman) to agree to become physical.
And that is the problem with “game” (and I don’t say this as some moral high grounder who hasn’t used tactics myself). For men (often) the end game is being physical. For women (often) the end game is everything that happens AFTER you become physical. When $h!t goes bad it’s usually when the dude didn’t have any solid plan or idea of where he wanted to go with things after they got physical, and once things start to become less fun, or more work (i.e. a relationship) he decides to bail.
Lest you all should think I’m panty pandering it’s just as true that $h!t goes bad when a woman agreed to be physical hoping that a meaningful relationship will come out of a physical encounter and becomes disappointed (i.e. bitter) when it doesn’t.
Obviously this doesn’t apply to the Mythical Tribe of Urban Amazon Women who only want to have sex and not a relationship (I hear tell they exist, I’ve never met one in reality though). If you truly are just looking for a bust down, then “the game” works equally for you and for him. But again, that’s “game” as defined by DQ. I realize everyone has their own definition and what it means.
p.s. You’ll note that my definition of “game” fits with what I said earlier about men getting to be selfish and women getting to being crazy.
“When most people think of “game” in terms of guys they think of getting from point A to point Skeet. I think people think of games in for women in terms of getting from point Skeet to point CLANK CLANK.”
clear, concise, funny and excellent point
Very good post…I don’t think I could have summed that up any better
Game is basically manipulation. And we all engage in manipulation on some level (whether we morally cosign it or not). In some cases the manipulation is getting other people to do what they wanted to do anyway. So whether or not it should be negative is a judgment call.
I personally think that the women who do resist saying game is effective, are also the women who put a premium on “security”. And nothing breeches a sense of security in oneself like the knowledge that someone can manipulate your actions at will. In some ways, we ALL want to believe we’re smarter than that..
…”Political Ad Campaigns” and “Marketing” in general demonstrate that we aren’t.
“I personally think that the women who do resist saying game is effective, are also the women who put a premium on “security”. And nothing breeches a sense of security in oneself like the knowledge that someone can manipulate your actions at will. In some ways, we ALL want to believe we’re smarter than that..”
Very good point DQ…. i’ve been watching you… i like how you think
i wonder if that’s game?!?!?!??! lol
I am long standing practitioner of the “No Game” Game.
I’ve learned that sometimes, being genuine is just easier. If you like me, you like me, if you don’t, you don’t. No shots fired at active gamers, it just isn’t for me.
My pick up line is “hello”.
Seems a lot less complicated
It is. It has its consequences (i.e. I may not end up getting the drawers now or even in the future) but that’s the price of taking that path. I accept it.
“My pick up line is “hello”.”
Yo this is my ideal situation but i dunno if i FULLY agree…. i think “game” is annoying and stupid, but i think that even in being genuine, theres still SOME level that goes on (like even basic flirting could be called game based on how u do it).
ALSO, do u think theres like a minimum level a guy has to be on to have success by just being as genuine as possible? Like could a average dude have success by just saying hello, or do u gotta shine in other ways to be able to do that? Bc honestly, the game shit is depressing to me… i find that theres really no difference between game and playing games and that to me is….. dumb
You had me at hello. lol I think you’re thinking is more in line with mine. I just don’t see how it is considered game if you are genuinely interested in someone and the feelings are mutual.
In my mind it isn’t game, but I realize people define it in different ways so…
Damn you just stole my whole comment right out of my head. Now I don’t feel like writing my own comment anymore lol.
I’m just gonna co-sign alla this 100%
CQ meet DQ. DQ meet CQ
*Starts singing, “We Got Something In Common” like Bobby Brown and Whitney*
doesn’t every woman put a premium on security? that’s biological.
i’m aware that game exists, and like Mo i actually applaud men with good game. knowing that i’m dealing with someone with game doesn’t make me feel like someone can manipulate my actions at will…it just makes me feel impressed and turned on. mind you, though, the type of game i’m talking about is not selfish, malicious, or contrived. it’s really just a man being himself but “on,” showing more of a witty, mysterious side.
Yeah but Mary Jane… “game” (at least as expressed by those in the PUA community) isn’t a man showing you “himself”. That’s him showing you an idealized version of himself. He can’t be that ninja 24 hours a day in real life. That ninja might pull a current event out his a$$ to impress you one day, but ask him to put it into context historically and all of a sudden you’re getting the “Scooby Doo” look. Game is temporary. Character is what you are.
i guess what threw me is the “manipulate your actions at will” part. it sounds very insidious. but i see what you mean.
“I personally think that the women who do resist saying game is effective, are also the women who put a premium on “security”. And nothing breeches a sense of security in oneself like the knowledge that someone can manipulate your actions at will. In some ways, we ALL want to believe we’re smarter than that..”
so basically, women are terry benedict?
*Googles Terry Benedict*
*says something vague and non-committal until he can figure out the reference*
Well yeah, you know how it be sometimes and what not
lol!!!!!!
Champ, I love your ‘Ocean’s Eleven’ reference. Very spot on. I know that no one’s commenting at this hour, but I couldn’t let the Terry Benedict shout out go by unnoticed. One of my top 10 favorite movies (and for my money, one of the most romantic movies).
“…”Political Ad Campaigns” and “Marketing” in general demonstrate that we aren’t.”
That’s my business. Throw psychology in there and I can call myself a master manipulator…and I’m perceptive too? Brotha you don’t even stand a chance. lol
Men stand for that silly damsel game I see women pull:
Btw, I need some help moving boxes out of my garage. Oh you can? Thanks. You hungry? I’ll whip up alittle something. How are you by the way? Greeeeaaaaat.
*blink* *blink* <— I see
marriedmen fall for this all of the time yet claim women are the ones who fall for game. lolWomen do fall for game. I think it works particularly well (especially in the example you described above) because it caters to some behavior that we already subscribe to. Men think that they’re supposed to come to the rescue, so if you set it up for us to do – we’ll do it (it’s no different than when you bring us your problems and we try to solve them… that’s what we do – we’re problem solvers).
I have known women to pretend they didn’t know something and ask a man for help, just so he could feel like he helped her out and that he was smart. You all absolutely run game. And yes we absolutely fall for it, just like you fall for ours. And I suppose if it’s just used as an ice breaker it’s probably alright… but in my experience, people’s “game” often becomes their “mask”.
Game works, marketing works otherwise they wouldn’t exist. I don’t mind game per se, because just as with Life certian approaches make one successful others not so much.
Game is not a bad thing – and in this context I assume we are talking about the successful kind – the point isn’t whether it is happening, the point is the goal. Good game doesn’t leave a woman feeling used and manipulated. Bad game does, so even if you get to your “goal” the ultimate result is not good.
A lot of the time, I know when those ad campaigns work on me, and similarly, a lot of the time I know when I’m being gamed. The thing that matters to me is how I feel about it, is this person sincerely interested or do I get the icky vibe. Sucessful game, no matter whether the good or the bad, helps you ignore your first inclination. When women say they are impervious to game they are usually saying they don’t ignore that icky feeling, no matter how much game is kicked their way. Sometimes that’s true sometimes they are delusional.
I think I may have just remixed Mo-VSS.
Great point! I completely agree. This is how I feel about “game” overall.
It is not so much manipulating the other person’s actions at will, it is more like increasing the gravitational pull between you and them. You want to tug their natural attraction more towards you. Strengthening what is already there.
Trust, no amount of game will make someone who doesn’t have any interest change their minds. You can only work with increasing (and not screwing up) what little is already there.
It could be that many of us are just defining game differently. I have seen some examples of it already in other comments.
And nothing breeches a sense of security in oneself like the knowledge that someone can manipulate your actions at will.
this makes “game” seem like puppeteer’ing. and perhaps SOME men that purposely use game with the intention of trying to control women they encounter. but ive come to think of using game more as a means to stack the odds in a man’s favor–esp if he’s not some Adonis (per Champ’s example in #2).
in the grand scheme of things, men have a lot of hurdles to cross when it comes to navigating the murky waters of the dating pool, since they are typically the aggressors in the pursuit. if you’re not an Idris or Boris, you have to convince women that you are worth her time and interest.
and i think most women are comfortable with the intrigue of a guy who can capture her attention with his wit and nonchalance. since, we all know, women tend to be less interested in the average fella who fawns all over her. like some men, we like a challenge.
where i think women resist game or admitting theyve had game run on them, is when theyve been manipulated to the point of emotional/mental damage. no woman wants to be Boo Boo the Fool and feel used by a man she thinks is genuinely into her, only to find out it was all for fun… but the jokes on her.
game is cool until you get played, and end up bankrupt on Boardwalk.
*and i think most women are comfortable with the intrigue of a guy who can capture her attention with his wit and nonchalance.*
I agree wholeheartedly, I just believe that you can be all these things without being contrived. It is not beyond most men to be witty. I just think it’s better when it’s a natural aspect of your behavior. (I’m sure you probably agree – you’re kinda smart that way)
” In some cases the manipulation is getting other people to do what they wanted to do anyway.”
Which is why game is essential. You want someone to WILLNGLY do what they wanted to all along. I know there have been times when I thought “will he just show a sign” when I’m in the initial stages when a guy. That sign could be in relation to sex, overall interest, taking it to the next level with a relationship, etc. I’m not the type who won’t bring up what I want, but the object of this whole dating and mating thing is to have a bit of coy-ness where manipulation (the good kind) is concerned.
My opinion: we are all liars, and we all want to be lied to…
…until we don’t won’t to be lied to. LOL. How do we survive as a species when we are so contradictory I wonder?
You know what?? I have no problem with being gamed with a good purpose, like uh, to get me to loosen up to date me. Or to make me feel good. Like I’m so cool with that. (my more mature vss’s, what yall think??)
I think I dislike game when I RECOGNIZE that I’m being gamed. Like when I know what you are going to say next, or I’m rolling my eyes because I heard that line before or if I get that feeling like I’m being played, I’m gone (or I’m not and just embarrassed for you or myself depending on the situation.)
Also, that bait and switch is so effing true – I can’t tell you- Maaan, I guess it was game huh?? Yall fancy, huh? I want to believe that it wasn’t game, but I’ll listen to you men when you tell me something different.
***Sigh****
“I think I dislike game when I RECOGNIZE that I’m being gamed. Like when I know what you are going to say next, or I’m rolling my eyes because I heard that line before or if I get that feeling like I’m being played, I’m gone…
…but I’ll listen to you men when you tell me something different.”
And this is exactly why we need to stay fresh, and sharp.
As a mature VSS, relatively, I pretty much co-sign. I want to be gamed. The problem is defining game. To me, game is nothing more than doing or saying whatever u do or say in a manner that makes it more appealing, but not deceitful. I.e. U want me to iron your shirt…baby will you iron my shirt? Eh, no game but I’ll prolly do it. OR Baby, last time you ironed my shirt you had me lookin super crispy! Think you can hook it up like that again? Certainly. My ironing skills weren’t a fluke, I keep my baby looking good!
Simple. I hate when the relationship gets comfortable and men stop gaming. What happened to the compliments, candles, music, door opening??? All the things you do that let us know you think we are attractive and special make us want to make you feel special. I like when u make me want to make u feel special. Inspire me. Run game. Game is used to decorate, not camouflage.
I suppose the reluctance comes from the notion that having game is associated with deception, pimps, used car salesman, all around trickery. Women think being gamed leads to being used/abused only to discover he never cared about them at all, despite all that he said.
but,
game implies a mystery, EVERYONE knows that
women want to feel attractive -> and have that validated -> thus filling their ego. Their is no mystic secret there.
I don’t think what you are asking for / describing is game.
All of our egos (sense of self and its boundaries) needs stroking, but game – well – not sure that is what game is.
I think game is presenting an image of what could be, or might be, while hiding the realities that take away from that image.
“I think game is presenting an image of what could be, or might be, while hiding the realities that take away from that image.”
pretty good assessment. like champ said, it’s seduction. and like i put it earlier, it’s you being you, but just “on.” when you wanna seduce, you’re constantly showing the sides of yourself that are going to turn someone on.
… while hiding the realities that take away from that image.
and by that definition it is easy to see why women would not want to concede that “game” works, as it is esentially states that we are an easy target for obvious and systematic, static deception.
That is not game to me. To me that is lying, deception, socio-pathic tendencies. Game is knowing how to make the truth, what’s real, more appealing. Everyone might recognize the benefit therein, but everyone isn’t capable.
“To me that is lying, deception, socio-pathic tendencies.”
jesus. lol you have got to learn how to form an opinion.
no one said that you keep that up throughout the relationship. just initially- as in the first few dates. by date 3, have you completely let it all hang out or are you still putting your best foot forward? that’s a rhetorical question cuz we all know the answer.
If you’re conscious of what he’s doing and it’s not making you feel attracted to him, he’s doing it wrong. Any woman on Planet Earth can be gamed properly and will love the dude for it, whether she realizes it’s happening or not – but only if he’s gaming her right.
Truth!!!!!
“I think I dislike game when I RECOGNIZE that I’m being gamed. Like when I know what you are going to say next, or I’m rolling my eyes because I heard that line before or if I get that feeling like I’m being played, I’m gone (or I’m not and just embarrassed for you or myself depending on the situation.)”
effective game is like an A+ paper in English class: you have to “hide” your work
Nope, I hate the “gamed” feeling as well. Why? Because it comes off as selfish to me. When a man acts like he is doing me a favor by being in my presence or when he acts as though he’s telling me something “special” but I know damn well he says that to everyone…it’s a complete turn off. He my uber attractive and might appear to have all the qualities that I want, but that right thurrr???? Instant turn off and will get him written off as “that dude.”
when you did have the post about people essentially being the same, i think i was one of the few women that agreed. people are people but, we are not getting into that post again… i keep hearing that this game thing works, i’m not sure but some men swear by it (where is O he seems like he will be up, on and around this topic)! do i know if it’s been used on me?!?! i have no idea… i do know that not every game tactic works on every woman so there lies our individuality.
SN: WHICH NYC VSB/VSS HAS BEEN TAKEN OFF THE WAIT LIST AND WANTS TO CARPOOL DOWN TO TURN THREE DEEZ O-U-T?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
“do i know if it’s been used on me?!?!”
it’s being used on you right now
awww.. Yoles..i hope you can make it!!
wont somebody please think of the children!!
Yoles you betta come or I will go to NYC and snatch you up…don’t play.
that dude is mad creep looking…if he can pick up a chick who doesn’t ordinarily go for creepers, then i guess what he’s saying really works.
i can admit to falling prey to the cat-string scenario. however, i wonder how effective this is b/c i just end up getting pissed and moving on, before either of us gets what we want…
He looks creepy because he stands out. It’s some like, “peacock theory” if I recall. One thing the women always tell him is that they “never saw [themselves] being attracted to a guy like [him].” Yeah, Mystery is nice. Half the women don’t even realize they’re being gamed.
omg that picture made me laugh out loud, literally. that’s tommy lee though. he could get it all kind of ways for me. i love him. and he doesn’t always dress like that lol.
Thats who that is? trueeeee. i thought it was Boy George at first with that hat on…lmao.
That’s not Tommy Lee…dude calls himself Mystery. He hosts the VH1 show called The Pick Up Artist where he tries to teach nerds how to run game so they can get women. He knows what he’s talking about too…good stuff.
oh. he looks like tommy lee. tommy lee could get it. did i say that already?
i heard his d**k is huge
More surface area for the hepatit!s?
@ More surface area for the hepatit!s?
*** i just died****
hahahahaha…WIP, you crazy girl..
*How do you feel about the concept of “game?”*
I have a very interesting perspective on this as “Mystery” was filming the first season of his show on VH1 during my time in Phoenix and one of my roommates at the time was DEEP into the PUA community online. So I heard a lot of this stuff ad nauseum (even met a couple of the “community” guys out there) and can say… a good bit of it is actually sensible.
*Why do you think many women are relunctant to admit that they’ve been (or are being) gamed?*
A lot of women want the fairy tale story to tell their family and friends. They want to say they met the love of their life and had this long, deep (snicker) conversation about everything they had in common and how they had similar goals, yada yada, blah blah blah. It sorta kills the romance of the story if a woman found out that the same opening conversation topic he used to get her to open up (snicker again), he used on 12 other women first.
*Do you think there’s some truth to the idea that the same general techniques work with most (if not all) women, or do you think it’s completely bullsh*t?*
Of course it works. That’s why these guys are making money. And yes, they’re making A LOT of money on books, e-books, seminars, CDs/DVDs, etc. I never really got down with the whole thing when my boy was going on and on about this stuff. But once we all graduated, left AZ, and I didn’t have to hear about the newest technique or new funny opener he read/learned, I realized at its heart, all the Game and PUA stuff was just helping out a bunch of shy guys who wanted to get their sh*t together when it came to talking to women. A lot of men, yours truly included, will get nervous approaching an attractive woman that he doesn’t know in an attempt to start a conversation out of thin air. Some men, however, need a little more help than others and seek out a different way to learn their game.
+1. Co-sign and I approve of this comment.
Same
The thing about the PUA community is that a lot of them are nerds. Not in the comic book sense, but exactly in that sense at the same time.
A lot of them don’t even care about the women, they jus enjoy the fact that they can get over on the women. Sorta like the Diva Dude.
@Ben
You’re right on some accounts, a lot of them are pretty nerdy, that was one of the main things that held me back from ever really gettin with the whole crew of ‘em. But, I can’t say my boy was a nerd, that’s kinda harsh. Dude just had a lot of hang ups about his height (he’s 5′ 7″ on a good day) and felt like he would never get any play from the women he wanted unless he was 6′+. So when he found this stuff, he went hard in the paint. Like straight up disciple-dom. Every conversation would turn into some kind of PUA discussion (another reason I wasn’t feeling it, just plain tired of hearing about it).
But at the end of the day, did he start getting more women… Yes. Did he get more confident and lose his fear of approaching attractive women… Yes. So at the end of the day, he found some training wheels that helped him get to where he wanted. But I did see him, and a few others of his new friends have some Diva Dude moments. I can’t hate on the PUA community for that though. Are they doing anything different than dude that was quiet up until he crossed his fraternity or dude that gets a new promotion/more money/new car etc? It’s just ugly duck syndrome.
This comment is ON POINT! I cosign 100%. I’m a woman that seen the magic unfold with nerdy guy friends who got that confidence they needed to charm women.
“Of course it works. That’s why these guys are making money. And yes, they’re making A LOT of money on books, e-books, seminars, CDs/DVDs, etc”
you can also make the argument that the real “game” is the game these guys run on the men who pay hundreds (sometimes even thousands) of dollars for their seminars and books.
I could argue that pro-ball players are running the same game on us.
One thing you learn if you spend enough time on PUA material is that this “game” applies to everything in life, not just pick up. It applies to how you conduct yourself at work, at the mall, in barbershops, hipster coffee shops, etc.
“It sorta kills the romance of the story if a woman found out that the same opening conversation topic he used to get her to open up (snicker again), he used on 12 other women first.”
im not a romantic. nor do i think that everyone thinks im special. however i would like to believe that our relationship is special. so if i found out the same moves were made with 500 other broads then yes that would be problematic. its very womanlike of me but i would want someone to have attraction (and then later feelings) for me above the average. otherwise im left feeling like you only associate with me because of timing (which i guess is true about every relationship ever, but hey i can dream)
I’m not sure if anyone ever watched that show w/ Mystery and ‘nem where they were taking socially awkward men and teaching them game, but I always wondered what would happen if Mystery walked into a club filled with Black women trying to holla (I imagined it to be kinda along the lines of that Chapelle show skit where they did the Real World with an all-black cast). Although the principles of what he was teaching was generally on point, his execution (at least with VSS) would have needed some serious adjustment…that hat alone would’ve gotten his a$$ shot down more than a Libyan airstrip.
LOL DQ
i think once a man researches, he is smart enough to tweak it for his target population… but yes just thinking about his makeup and style of dress with any non whites (with the exception of those that have been whitened by association – i am not talking about sell outs or people that self hate or whatever its called nowadays, i’m speaking about people that just been socialized mainly around whites so they kind of become like them- i wish i had an example for you all but i don’t i just know them when i meet them) blacks, latins, asians, native americans etc he would have been laughed out of town! so… the game must be adjusted
*DG my mistake
Watch it now…you don’t wanna be calling out another man’s name when you’re with me…that’ll get you cut. Lol
All jokes aside, even an expert like Mystery would have some trouble adjusting to women of color. In some respects, he would need to do the complete opposite of what he does now…for example, his whole image is game…the hat, the makeup, his clothes… all game (he refers to it as ‘peacocking’…wearing/doing something so distinctive that you literally stand out from the crowd). But for most VSS, that would kill ANY chance he has of trying to holla. Most VSS like nicely/stylishly dressed men….but attention-drawing clothes are a no-no.
Another example is the negging (i.e., giving a backhanded compliment)…just imagine him trying to ‘neg’ a woman of color:
Mystery: “I like your hair…it’s amazing how silky-smooth weaves are nowadays…”
VSS: “Un-uh, I know your Shaggy (from Scooby-Doo)-looking a$$ ain’t trying to talk about my hair….”
Mystery: “No, I mean I really do like your hairstyle. Can I touch it?”
VSS: “Bi+ch, please”
Needless to say, I don’t know if he’s ready for ya’ll…
? *DG* ?
blame it on my vision and not my ??????
its late, i’m old(er) than i look and you two have names that look VERY much alike… but you’re right, it won’t happen again… scouts honor ? ?
He may not have it right away, but I’m fairly confident that he went spent a weekend at black establishments and had some dudes there with him to interpret the women’s responses, he could figure it out pretty quickly.
True enough, he may figure a few things out, but I don’t know how quickly it would be. Most VSBs don’t know everything, and most of us have been around black & brown women our entire lives. Approaching a sista successfully time and time again ain’t something one learns in a weekend.
Needless to say, I think he would take a few L’s before he started (bi)winning.
I thought about this. I’m like… how would these corny techniques he tells his minions work with sistas? Doesn’t seem like they would. Because I remember when I was watching his TV show, I always felt that even if I wasn’t aware of the game… I wouldn’t warm up to the way he’d come to some of those chicks… like, at all. lol
And again, it’s not about me being aware that he was playing game. I’m aware that “acting disinterested” is a game, but I can also admit it works (if played correctly/not too dramatically or douchebaggedly and of course without me knowing).
I remember watching a few episodes of the first season and I thought this Mystery dude, his disciples and his minions were acting like d ouchebags to the nth degree. Then I thought about the chicks who fall for this stuff and I thought ‘d amn b!tch, what is wrong with your self of steam?’ In regards to ‘neg’ thing, I’ve been verbally taunted and insulted by d-bags from the age of 12 and even now (occasionally), so giving me a backhanded compliment (or a neg) doesn’t work for me.
I assumed that this flirting-method was a ’2520 man and woman’ thing or an ‘LA’ thing.
An effective neg shouldn’t be hurtful, but more playfully teasing…kinda how an old friend or male relative might tease you about something (i.e., short height, chubby cheeks, etc.). It’s probably something that you wouldn’t find offensive. It’s actually ideal for a woman who likes to talk sh#t, ‘cuz then it gives her a chance to come back with something…and so begins the conversation.
I think most men we’ve come across haven’t mastered the art of the neg…which is why we don’t like it.
When I have met a man who can do this right, it does work. And ensuing banter is great foreplay. When he can’t do it right, he gets dismissed as a douche. His loss…always though. LOL
“(i.e., short height, chubby cheeks, etc.). ”
WAYMENT. I’m 5’3” and ya know why I have the name…
same here. being teased a lot when i was younger (and random acts of street terrorism nowadays) has made me an ineffective neg target. if the intention of the neg is to show that you are not all impressed by my beauty. guess what, i never thought you were anyway. and even brigning up something that im sensitive about in the most harmless way will still not work. sorry guys, blame it on all your douchebag friends (cuz you knwo you were friends wit this dude and probably laughed too!).
I don’t think he mentions that though in the book. His game is talked about from a white male perspective. White men have different game then brothers. Right?
I also think the approach and dynamics are really different if your hollering at a sista, mami, or 2520 and also depends on who you are.
This site spoke of something a while back about internet dating and how people generally have a pro 2520 bias. I would suggest those biases that are a reality online also occur in real life. These PUA theories seems to ignore all that.
So Champ is right, they are gaming alot of those poor souls, getting them to pay money to be taught game by will smith wannabes.
My friends and I called them “Black White Girls”, or BWG’s. Hollering at them is all around different than hollering at Homegirls or Enlightened Homegirls (we had a whole taxonomy of the Hood-Burb spectrum, as it pertained to women.)
Please elaborate. This sounds facinating.
Far left end of the spectrum:
Black White Girls – She either grew up in a white, middle/upper class neighborhood or town, or she might be mixed (though not all mixed girls are BWG, not hardly, lol). All she knows of Black Culture is what she saw her immedaite family say or do and what she’s received via media. She may or may not be interested in dating a Black man. It’s really a crap shoot, and you have to approach them on a case by case basis. Super subtle Black cultural stuff will probably go over her head, but she may be eager to absorb it from you, if she likes you enough. She was up on 2520 stuff at-the-time that you only discovered years later, like when Bon Jovi’s Dead Or Alive was out, or the first 3 seasons of Friends, etc. Her phone voice would fool anyone.
Far right end of the specturm:
The Homegirl – Most of us posting here probably grew up in black neighborhoods, so there’s not much I need to say about her. She probably didn’t go to college, or didn’t graduate. Most of her tastes and interests don’t extend far beyond Black Culture proper. Interestingly, while she gets all the super subtle Black Cultural references that the BWG will miss, she’s not big on subtlety for its own sake, which the BWG specializes in. So heady humor eitheir goes over head, or she sees it as dumb. She has absolutely no tolerance for any guy who’s not completely swagged out, even if she’s barely attractive herself. She’s been in a few serious fist fights with other girls.
The middle of the spectrum:
The Enlightened Homegirl (slightly to right of the mean) and the Down Black-White Girl (slightly to the left of the mean) – These girls are at their core one extreme or the other, but have been significantly and deeply exposed to the other extreme. They’re almost always highly educated, typically having Master’s degrees or more, and tend to have decent careers by their mid to late 30′s. They’re also frequently members of BGLO’s and probably have done at least some volunteer work. They tend to have dated all different types of Black Men, because of their ability to slide between the two sides of Blackness with ease. They code switch really effectively, and can fit in at a super hood function, or at Bill’s get together at his estate in Connecticut. They actually *aren’t* super bourgie. Extreme bourgieness tends to be a feature of people closer to the Hood end of the spectrum who have recently “made it” , and want to show out. These women, by contrast, are conscious of being too flashy or opulent, though their appetite for expensive clothes and shoes is sometimes too much for them to resist.
My friends and I tended towards the enlightened homegirls/DBWG’s and sometimes the BWG’s. The outright Homegirls were much harder to pull because we didn’t have much contact with them and we tended not to be what they found acceptable.
This is great!
Yes… they are black but white… and not because they are trying to hard/self hate or whatever.. they just are!!!
@DG,
That comment about the hat is right on. Black, White, Puerto Rican or Haitian, that hat is a no go, and I would consider the woman willing to overlook it suspect, if she didn’t already have a thing for weird dudes. I mean ‘game’ doesn’t affect my eyesight. :/
And to be honest I enjoy game, like all women, if its well executed. Getting another person to feel comfortable around you (gaming) takes skill, and most women like skilled men, so I don’t see the issue.
But as it was stated before, “SAY GIRL, SAY, I CAN BUY YOUR GAS!” doesn’t usually cut it. (Where did you get that colorful example, you ask? REAL LIFE, THAT’S WHERE. smh)
The thing is, the white women he talks to, they don’t really like the hat either.
“SAY GIRL, SAY, I CAN BUY YOUR GAS!”
LOL never had that gem but I have had these “winners”
Baby, I’ll wash your car, it’s cold (when I was finished washing my car)
Him:Damn girl, I’d pay your rent if you let me come over for dinner tonight
Me: my mortgage is $XXX.
Him: nevermind
I’ll give you $10,000 to fukc tonight. I only have $3500 on me though.
LOL i had a white man step out of a group of professionals he was talking with and say (very loudly) “how much do i have to make to take you out to dinner, because whatever it is, i make it.”
mad insulted. even more so than a man yelling out of his window. i wasn’t aware i had a “for sale” sign on me, but whatever. lol
I was insulted as hell too. Since when is it cool to just treat everyone like a prostitute? The worst part is I know these guys only do this because it worked on somebody.
SN: The $3500 guy was the most insulting. Bad enough you talk to me like a lady of the evening. Then you “offer” 35% down. Like a Cootycat layaway. I told him the Browns suck and I was a lezzie.
“LOL i had a white man step out of a group of professionals he was talking with and say (very loudly) “how much do i have to make to take you out to dinner, because whatever it is, i make it.”
i’m sorry, but this was awesome.
yeah he at least would have gotten a laugh and a wink…even if it was as i walked away saying “nice try.” i find humor in situations like that.
+ 1
yeah, I think that’s hilarious! It’s not flattering, but you gotta love the moxxy!
I agree! LOL
oh, i laughed at the sheer ballsyness of it. lol. but i was still insulted.
“SAY GIRL, SAY, I CAN BUY YOUR GAS!”
dude is lucky that he met you and not me b/c i sure nuff would have filled up on premium!! when dudes come at me like that i automatically do it… don’t offer to buy me anything b/c i will take it and you still have the same 50/50 chance of me speaking to you…
i’m a work in progress/i’m scared that i’m getting to old to still have it or whatever excuse will make you believe i’m doing this b/c of low self esteem!!!
I watched and based upon the techniques they used in the predominantly 2520 clubs I kept thinking, “This -ish would never work on a BW or a LW”. I hate to say it, but I think alot of PUA stuff is race specific. Either that or you’d have to tailor it to your given audience. Like the concept of “peacocking” [i.e. wearing a loud item of clothing or signature piece of jewelry or attire]. It’s supposed to set you apart from all the AFCs [Average Frustrated Chumps] in the club and draw women’s attention to you. That’s why Mystery always wore goggles, or the fuzzy hat/boas and nail polish to the club. One thing he did on the show that actually made sense to me was the “refusal to buy a woman the first drink” move. He said conversation is free and one thing men need to move away from is this bartering system where you need to pay a woman for her time and conversation since it “devalues” you as a man. I have friends who live by the PUA manual and swear by it.
“Either that or you’d have to tailor it to your given audience. Like the concept of “peacocking” [i.e. wearing a loud item of clothing or signature piece of jewelry or attire]. It’s supposed to set you apart from all the AFCs [Average Frustrated Chumps] in the club and draw women’s attention to you. That’s why Mystery always wore goggles, or the fuzzy hat/boas and nail polish to the club.”
thats the thing. i think black men who do this also peacock, but instead of funny glasses it might be a shirt that says “very smart brothas” in big bold letters. anything you can do to stand out from the crowd and start conversation works.
LMBO. nice.
Some of the things Mystery teaches would definitely not work on Black women. He talks about casually telling a woman something along the lines of how she’s beautiful but you’re not interested in her because you’re gay. It’s meant to shock her – you instantly confess that you’re lying about being gay, and then she’s intrigued (by the neg). I’m butchering the line (it’s in the Neill Strauss book), but it’s what we talked about last week, regarding the freedom white men have to do openly ironically homo stuff and still have their heterosexuality remain intact. That would not fly with black women.
But that’s specific – the overall point definitely does work: negs, qualifying, etc.
Yeah, that “I’d totally hit on you, if I wasn’t gay” line?? That ish would leave you dead in the water with black women.
But yeah, the principles that he was teaching were on point. They just have to be tailored and culturally competent for your respective female audience.
Umm so if some guy’s neg was “but I’m gay” and then he turns around later and says he was just playin, I would wonder was his neg was THAT. Then I’d always be suspicious…It wouldn’t work on me
Sorry.
And that’s why that specific neg should not be used on black women.
Another thing.
This shows that good negging requires a certain deep familiarity with the culture of the girl you’re hitting on.
I don’t think the I’m Gay neg would work on the Jersey Shore girls either. But it probably would work on Tina Fey, or Sarah Silverman, or even someone liek Chelsea Clinton. Upper middle class, non-black or Latino, educated and probably liberal.
I always wondered the same thing. I watch a scene where they are in a bar and see how they interact with women and I thought, “now this sh!t will not work at a nightclub in Flatbush”.
@DG
LOL!!! Mystery and his antics are definitely culture/race specific. there are just some thing that dont really translate well across ethnic lines.
that said, i def do think black men have their own version of this. ive encountered many brothas who arent the best looking or best dressed, who had women putting in their hands. nothin but game — a series of very well placed comments and behaviors that influenced how women perceived their average-joe-ness in a crowd full of hawties.
the game is a mutual agreement: the one person wants to be lied to, and the other is a willing participant.
don’t play the game.
C’mon now, LSQ.
Gaming and lying can very well be mutually exclusive of one another. You can run game and be completely honest, or you can be suspect and lie. But they’re not married to each other.
very true,
but we see this relationship all the time:
strippers/customers
prostitutes/johns
lexus/deltas (why ya’ll always driving lexi? luv ya reds!)
we all want a fantasy (nice word for a lie) fulfilled, the game is just getting two people together willing to provide that to each other. baseless for a relationship. It _is_ God’s way to keep us reproducing, so I’ll give you that, but as far as the basis for having a real relationship – pishaw.
I dont think it is necessarily a lie. Its more about fully understanding the reactions your actions will bring about. Those without ‘game’ will desire one set of events but receive another all because they f’d up on the signals they were trying to get across.
Woman refuse to accept that game works and men refuse to admit that they also tend to function just like the various dating books suggest.
Completely disagree. The game isn’t about lying.
I don’t think so, LSQ.. the game isn’t about lying. It’s about putting your best foot forward, just like you’d do on a job interview and the first 90 days of a new job (at least). Does the other person want to be lied to? No. I don’t want a man to lie to me, but I want him to feature himself a little bit. Tell me some of your best attributes, and I’ll tell you mine. For instance, when a guy says to me: “tell me something interesting about you?”, I’m going to tell him fun and unique things about me that I’m sure will intrigue him. (I like football, I’m an aiight cook, and sht)…but what I’m NOT gonna mention is my tendency to fart in my sleep and habitual unpunctuality. All of which are true about me, but the first set represents my best foot forward. I’d appreciate the same from a man.
*fart in my sleep and habitual unpunctuality.*
phphphpt
ummm… who doesn’t do this? I betta stop telling people I step to that I fart and have cp time troubles – maybe that’s the trouble with my ‘game’?
I didn’t say you shouldn’t tell them, L. it’s not a secret. Sure, everyone does it, but is that in your elevator speech? Hope not.
Game isn’t all about lies and deception.