Why I Believe In Marriage (…And Why I Can’t Judge You If You Don’t) » VSB

Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Theory & Essay

Why I Believe In Marriage (…And Why I Can’t Judge You If You Don’t)

Are there any Black wedding figurines that don't look like Robert Downey Jr. from Tropic Thunder?

Are there any Black wedding figurines that don’t look like Robert Downey Jr. from Tropic Thunder?

Although I’m getting married in three months, I have to admit there are parts of being single I will miss.

Actually, that is a lie. There are no “parts.” But there is one specific part, and all of the positive benefits of singledom stem from it.

Most committed relationships — well, most healthy committed relationships — require each partner to be aware of and sensitive to each others wants, needs, and feelings. And this consideration sets parameters on what you’re able to do. Singledom has no such limitations. If you want to go to India for a month or if you want to spend half your paycheck at the casino or if you want to quit your job and direct cat videos or if you want to f*ck your landlord’s daughter — and you’re able to do these things — you can do them without having to explain or justify or hide it from anyone.

Thing is, actually doing these things isn’t what makes singledom great. It’s the principle. It’s the fact that you can do them, even if you don’t actually want to. It’s not the physical act of getting “new p*ssy.” Its the mental acknowledgement that you’re able to entertain new p*ssy if you choose to. It’s the freedom.

For many, I imagine the idea of giving up this type of freedom to willingly enter a lifelong commitment to one person — a lifelong commitment to one person with no guarantee of happiness — is f*cking nuts. Even if this person checks each and every one of your boxes, it’s insane to sign away the next — and last — several decades of your life just because they made you laugh yesterday and they looked good as hell buttnaked in the kitchen today.

And, you know what? They’re right.

It is crazy. It doesn’t make any damn sense. And it is f*cking insane. There is no logical reason for me to dead my freedom for an archaic institution; an institution revolving around a commitment that, according to statistics, is likely to fail.

So why do I believe in marriage?

Because my parents were married. And they loved each other. And I grew up with that. And I wanted it for myself.

That’s it. It’s not about any ambiguous macro concepts like Black love and the Black family. It’s not about the community. It’s not about God and Christianity. It’s not about creating the best environment for a child. It’s not about tax benefits and building wealth. And, to be honest, it’s not even about love. As much as I love my fiancee, I might not have been as interested in marrying her if I didn’t grow up the way I did. If fact, we might not have even been together. Without my parents’ modeling, who knows if I would have even been interested in someone like her. (And, who knows if she would have still been interested in me.)

Obviously, there are people who didn’t grow up in a similar household but still believe in marriage. I’m not suggesting that modeling is a prerequisite for this type of belief. But, if someone didn’t experience that growing up…or if they did experience it, but the relationship between their parents was so unhealthy that they should have been divorced…or if they crunched the numbers and it doesn’t make much sense to them…or if they just value their freedom more than they value a marriage commitment, I can’t really fault them for it. It’s not wrong. It’s just not me.

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ)

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There’s only two days left to cop a Bougie Black Girl shirt from Teespring. It’s the perfect way to be the coolest chick in your crew without actually telling everyone you’re the coolest chick in your crew.

And yes, we have tanks to show off your guns from all that winter gym time…

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…women’s cut tees for blazers and kickball…

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…and v-necks for…whatever people need v-necks for…

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…available until Wednesday at http://teespring.com/bougieblackgirl.

***Also, those who purchased VSB logo tees and I Love Bougie Black Girls tees should have received them this week. When you do, take a selfie — or just ask someone to take your damn pic — and send it in for our yet-to-be-determined selfie/damn pic day.*** 

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Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a columnist for GQ.com And he's working on a book of essays to be published by Ecco (HarperCollins). Damon is busy. He lives in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes. Reach him at damon@verysmartbrothas.com. Or don't. Whatever.

  • I like the concept of a wedding as opposed to marriage. I’m honest enough with myself to admit that, as of right now, a proposal and a wedding is something that strongly appeal to me due to the aesthetics that come with it. Solitaire, pear cut, peach sapphire stone, with a simple rose gold band. Blush wedding gown with everyone else in navy blue. Evening nuptials. Open bar. Good food. Even better friends/family. Love sounds all well and good until it actually happens. Things become a complex and volatile compound which is capable of a violent reaction if the circumstances are just right.

    Situationships? That’s more my speed at the moment :-) Like a relationships but without true commitment.

    • Val

      I’m the exact opposite, AP. Give me the marriage without the wedding. A quick trip to the local courthouse is all I require.

      • I saw the cutest couple who had a courthouse wedding. The theme was yellow. The bride wore a simple lace shift dress with yellow pumps. There were lemon heads, Lemonade Izze, lots of cute stuff! It was beautiful!

        • Val

          That sounds very refreshing! :-)

      • ForeverCC

        i talked my hubby into a simple wedding. mind you our simple wedding was in st. lucia (we like to travel too lol) but it was just us. i would’ve done the courthouse (i actually suggested it) so our parents could attend, too.

        • Val

          That sounds like a very good plan! I could definitely see getting married in a little courthouse in Nova Scotia, Canada and then taking a nice train trip across the country.

          • Sahel

            Noted.

            • Val

              Are you using Windows XP?

              • Sahel

                I may be.

                • Val

                  So what are your plans now that Microsoft is no longer supporting it?

                  • Sahel

                    Correction .Microsoft has putting out updates for the public.

                    • Val

                      Huh?

                    • Sahel

                      Microsoft is not supporting it worldwide. But that does not mean it’s fully shutdown. There are ways to still get security patches from them. But i also use windows 7 so am good

                    • Val

                      And how does one get those security patches? From what I’ve heard MS won’t even be making patches anymore for that system.

                    • Sahel

                      Governments have privileges. That’s all i can say

                    • Val

                      That’s useless info.

                      *walks away in a huff*

                    • Sahel

                      Come back,i thought me and P.A were singing at you’re wedding

                    • Lea Thrace

                      They will make them if you pay for them. Which some governments are doing rather than a whole sale OS changeover. UK and Netherlands are some examples. The general public is sol unless you are somewhat tech savvy to figure out some workarounds.

                    • Val

                      Welp, that’s me, SOL.

                    • Lea Thrace

                      Ubuntu awaits you friend!

                      https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StartUbuntu

                    • Val

                      Wow, thanks, Lea! That looks like something I can use!

    • Obsidian Files

      …Annnd yet another “tell” in confirming your horosccope, my dear; you truly are Sagittarius Rising, alright. Archers aren’t exactly known to be the marrying sort – and when they are, they tend to be more about the “big day” than the day to day grind.

      Wouldn’t surprise me one whit if it ran in the family…such things (astrological and otherwise), often do…

      ;)

      O.

      P.S.: RIP Mickey Rooney, three-time Oscar nominee, a career spanning some seven decades in Hollywood, filed for bankruptcy three times, got married eight times, and sired nearly a dozen kids. Sun in Libra, Moon in Aquarius…and Sagittarius Rising.

      • ok the goal isn’t to be wed that many different times lol. Marriage (the institution) just sounds like a stretch for me personally. I’ve never liked someone else that much for it to be a consideration. A wedding has always been something that I’ve enjoyed though. But, I suppose much of that process has been pushed on me by others/society. Groupthink is real. Marriage is good for my financial status though. It’s like people get punished for being “single” in many aspects.

        People wonder why you aren’t in a relationship. People constantly tell you that your views on such will shift. I don’t know why so much weight is put into marriages but I’ve always seen pressure put on women to be that pristine “Proverbs 31” woman so she can get a ring and start using her body as a tiny human incubator. I see other people in love and that’s good enough for me. Good for them.

        • ManofMorehouse

          The more you talk to married people when they’re not in the presence of their spouse, the more you realize the image they present is more a show than anything else. And you may be pressured to marry by others because misery loves company. Sounds harsh but it holds some truth

          • One of my childhood friends just celebrated one year of marriage recently. She is still in the honeymoon phase of said marriage because her husband has been on some ship in the middle of no where for the past 9 months. She is more adamant about loving her husband than preaching about marriage. Her situation is quite unique though. He ended up getting an ex pregnant while they were going through a “rough patch” in their relationship. Now they are dealing with a vindictive mother who is trying to move across country just so she can exert some sense of control over my friend’s husband.

            I see her marriage and take her advice with a grain of salt. I think marriage is on the horizon for myself one day but I’m not one to fool myself into thinking that marriage is some hallowed relationship cornucopia. Anyone can sign a paper and get married.

            • buuuut that situation is EXTRA. I mean…sheesh!

              • Which is why I let her advice flow freely in one ear and out the other. I will say that she gives great chex tips, those I pay attention to.

                • Everybody needs a friend with great chex tips.

              • 321mena123

                I have heard of married women getting the herp from their husbands. In no way do I believe a marriage is a fairytale. But when it works, it is a beautiful thing.

  • Obsidian Files

    “Change incentives, and you change behavior.”
    -Charles Murray

    Good morning Champ, everyone,
    You know, I really must thank you for this “series” of posts of yours about the Question of Marriage, because let’s face it, Brothas don’t discuss the matter much, especially not in public, and it gives me the chance to, once again, raise critical questions that ordinarily wouldn’t be given a voice to in any other forum.

    But, before we pickup where we last left off, a personal note. Like you, I too have seen what marriage in Black America could be, in its better light; I have witnessed quite a few marriages in my own family, none of whom have broken up due to divorce, all of them either continuing or ended, only by “death do we part”. My own parents married after a 30 day-courtship and remained so for 30 years, until my father left this world. My grandparents were married for nearly twice as long, until my grandmother departed this mortal plane. Among my siblings, my elder brother remained married until he too left this place a few years back. Several of my siblings’ marriages are continuing without incident. The same is true for my cousins of similar age cohorts, while for my aunts and uncles, they shared the similar pattern of my parents and grandparents. There is a notable exception among them, but that is another commentary for another day.

    My personal eyewitness testimony notwithstanding, the simple fact remains that we, as Black Men, exist in a different time, than did our fathers or grandfathers. Ours is a time of great change and flux – and not all of them good or pleasant. In the time of our dads and grand dads, the rules were simpler, the goals clearer, the costs and benefits seemed more “even”; this is simply not the case in our time. There are real risks, and real costs, that can befall and be wrought from a Brotha, in our time, if he weds badly. Risks and costs that can, in so many ways, break him. And, much to the chagrin of our erstwhile Black Feminist Sistas, the vast majority of Brothas don’t have a few dollars to fight the case, to paraphrase that great philosopher Jay-Z, or have Obama’s number on speed dial. For most Brothas, regardless of station in life, they are far from “privileged”; they are pretty much on their own.

    In my previous commentaries both here at VSB and elsewhere online, I have been raising a simple question: “What’s in it for me?” – the “me” being what I refer to as “Tyrone”, my shorthand for a Brotha of a Certain Class. I find that one of the many “blindspots” these kinds of discussions have, is that they tend to lean too heavily toward those of the Professional Classes. Sure, there are all kinds of reasons to rationalize it, but I think the time is way past due that the Tyrones got their shine, especially on a topic of such critical import.

    I have raised the question of the quality of Black Women available to Tyrone for marriage or failing that, LTRs – and to be frank, it ain’t that great. This too is important, because among the Chattering Classes – of which you could be said to be a part of – the default assumption is that Brothas on the lower end of the American pecking order are somehow deficient when it comes to marriage and the like, while Sistas, regardless of where they fall on the scale or any of the very real baggage they carry with them, are inherently marriage-ready – and worthy. The reality on the ground, however – not exactly the strong suit of the Bougie Crowd, I am sure you would agree – begs to differ.

    Yesterday’s discussion, concerning the late Ms. “S*xy Cl*max” is a case in point. Among the working classes in Black America, it is not at all unusual to find legions of Sistas like her, babies by as many Baby Daddies, in tow. And that’s for starters – as I’ve noted again recently here at VSB, the role of (Black) Feminism has played in affecting the quality of the Sistas available for relationships among the Tyrone set, isn’t particularly spectacular. Often, Tyrone is left attempting to make the best of a rather bad situation.

    So, when you say above that your reasons FOR tying the knot have less to do with abstract or romantic notions of “saving the Black community/Black Love” and so forth, I can completely dig it – it’s how I feel when given “answers” in response to the above question I pose, about tax breaks and legal proceedings and the like; even if true, they sound distant and abstract. Meanwhile, the “S*xy Cl*max” types proliferate in the social world of Tyrone, where STDs, Baby Daddy Drama, having to possibly marry a Jezebel who’s spent the better part of her adult life “exploring herself – and errbody else”, who’s possibly loaded down with crippling Sallie Mae debt and a horrid FICO score, to say nothing of carrying a plethora of other Ratchet norms and pathologies – all this, PLUS a social, economic, political and legal climate that “empowers” such ladies, ahem, to, on a whim, Bring The Pain on a Brotha.

    And the wider society continues to put pressure on the Tyrones and insist that he “Man Up” and wife that?

    Really?

    No – “all” Sistas aren’t like the ones I have described above; after all, you stand as a sterling example of the fact that quite a few exemplary Sistas still exist, otherwise it would be difficult to see you getting to hitched to anything less.

    But the point has been made in spades – enough Sistas in our time – and especially in Tyrone’s social world from which he must choose a mate out of this bunch -ARE “like that” – and no reasonable Sista with a straight face can attempt to fix their mouth to argue otherwise. Not with a steady stream of easily accessible video footage from WorldStar Hip-Hop and YouTube going around the clock, they can’t. There’s a “there”, there, Champ – and if it can’t be discussed here, where CAN it be discussed?

    I need them Bougie Talking Heads to do better.

    Now adjourn your arses…

    O.

    • IcePrincess

      Who hurt you? *e-hug*

      • Damn! Isn’t a man allowed to be pissed? :P

        • Obsidian Files

          @Mr. Todd:
          LOL, not to worry, my good Man – it’s hardly worth the time or effort to be “p*ssed” – especially when all the smoking gun evidence one would ever want or need, sits right before our very eyes.

          Ms. IcePrincess cannot challenge what I’ve presented, so she’s attempted to personally assault yours truly. Ad Hominem to the Max, indeed.

          A most appropriate concession of defeat, I might add.

          *Looking around the hall*: is there no one else?

          Is there no one else?

          O.

      • Obsidian Files

        @Ms. IcePrincess:
        Ahh!–our First Catch of the day – and just in time, too. Right out the gate, the lady hits the O-Man with the “why you mad?” move.

        How quaint.

        Here is my response; I quote from The Catalogue Of Anti-Shaming Tactics:

        “Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)

        Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues.  Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable.  Examples:

        “You’re bitter!”
        “You need to get over your anger at women.”
        “You are so negative!”
        Response: Anger is a legitimate emotion in the face of injustice.   It is important to remember that passive acceptance of evil is not a virtue.”

        http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/

        You know, it’s perfectly OK to concede that my argument here is unassailable; I tend to have that effect on ladies.

        ;)

        O.

    • Kozy

      so these “Tyrone” type men, non-professionals, as you stated, are unhappy with the quality of women available to them. And, as you also stated, women that they might be more inclined to settle down with aren’t checking for them.

      I think this falls under the “tough sh*t” category.

      Everyone can’t have their pick of the proverbial litter. Water seeks it’s level (word to @disqus_ZiXVPIulwQ:disqus for the quote). Unhappy with your level? Raise it. Can’t? deal.

      • Obsidian Files

        @Mr. Kozy:
        Oh, how s*xist of you – “tough love” is always the go-to method of choice for any problems that Black Men – especially of the kind we’re currently discussing – just so happens to face, right? I mean after all, if it was good for Pres. Obama, it’s good for you – right?

        Right?

        See, the problem I have with your approach – and apparently, Ms. Esa’s, since you referenced her – is that such a notion ONLY surfaces, when it’s Black Men of a Certain Class that’s being discussed. We don’t take such “approaches” when it comes to others in our society – Gays, Bougie Blacks, Women in general, et al. In those cases, Empathy Sessions are long and drawn out, and POLICY scrums are had, to address the problems. But for the Tyrones, yea, girlfriend Twerkin; at the Wal*Mart is all his fault.

        Gotcha.

        Thanks – I think?

        O.

        P.S.: Love that avi, by the way – very “WWE”!

        • Obsidian Files

          Oh, and Mr. Kozy, one more thing:

          Actually, those ladies you said who might be inclined to settle down, aren’t checking for Tyrone, isn’t entirely true; actually, quite a few are – AFTER a goodly bit of time has run out on their clocks.

          More here: http://www.justfourguys.com/a-blue-collar-brotha-speaks-at-last/

          O.

          • esa

            ~ Actually, those ladies you said who might be inclined to settle down, aren’t checking for Tyrone, isn’t entirely true; actually, quite a few are – AFTER a goodly bit of time has run out on their clocks.

            how do you feel about the possibility that thing might be the natural order of things for a certain subset of men and women ? do you want to change natural law, or do you simply want to highlight the ramifications of its existence ..

            • Obsidian Files

              @Ms. Esa:
              If I had my druthers? Both.

              But, for now, raising a ruckus and getting a long overdue conversation started on the matter, within earshot of those who would not otherwise give a darn, will do…

              O.

              • esa

                i can dig it. if you are accepting of natural law and here to address its ramifications (both sides, net positive and net negative) then you are opening up a conversation that make many uncomfortable. and i get that. comfort is a very dangerous vice.

                • Obsidian Files

                  @Ms. Esa:
                  Indeed; particularly when it comes to something nown as the Naturalistic Fallacy – the idea that, because something is naturally occurring, it is then “OK”, right and just. This is not always the case.

                  The idea that certain people should just “Man Up” and “get over it”, in a society and at a time when Empathy and Social Justice is the order of the day, is just downright obscene to me.

                  And unjust.

                  O.

                  • esa

                    ~ Naturalistic Fallacy – the idea that, because something is naturally occurring, it is then “OK”, right and just.

                    i hear you. Nature is amoral. i was just commenting on this over at All the Right Questions. i am not sure where this leaves us, as morality is a shifting proposition. that said, i am all for further discussion and discovery because the more honest i am with myself about my true nature, the more freedom and happiness comes into my life. and i hold it in my heart that this possibility can exist for all people, should they choose it.

                    ~ The idea that certain people should just “Man Up” and “get over it”, in a society and at a time when Empathy and Social Justice is the order of the day, is just downright obscene to me.

                    i’m not a fan of disempowering ideologies, far too dismissive and dangerous. i was not suggesting that because a phenomenon is naturally occurring, people should just roll over. far from it. i’m just curious to begin with nature itself, and to discuss its implications and how we can use those to improve the quality of our lives. thus yesterday’s questions ..

        • esa

          ~ and apparently, Ms. Esa’s, since you referenced her

          (smile) “water seeks its own level” are not my original words. just a handy cliche that’s easy to toss around. that said, it’s more a universal concept that other people are welcome to apply as they wish but ..

          i dont speak of a specific group of people in generalizations. that’s not my style. it’s too manufactured for my highly discerning taste ~*~

          • Obsidian Files

            @Ms. Esa:
            Ah, just in time! Glad to see you.

            In light of yesterday’s discussion, I thought it best to, with your permission of course, to answer the questions you posed to me in full during next week’s “J4G Mailbag” over at Just Four Guys; I take it you know the address? Doing so in that forum will allow me to give your very insightful questions the full treatment they deserve.

            Until next Thursday, then?

            O.

            • esa

              (giggle) i was wondering why you did not reply, and i love the idea that my questions have inspired a lengthy and thoughtful response.

              you are welcome to use my questions, so long as you do not attempt in any form to use them in character azzasination against myself, or flip it against women as a group. not saying you would, but as a member of the media, any time my work is reproduced, i must be up front about the terms of use.

              if your intention is to explain the male mind on its own terms, without using it as an opportunity to lambaste women of any race, then you are more than welcome to use Just Four Guys as a forum for discussion. and i shall happily pop in to read your thoughts.

              • Obsidian Files

                @Ms. Esa:
                Oh, I understand; and there are quite a few ladies in this forum who an attest to the manner in which I operate. They shall remain nameless, of course.

                If you like I can send you an advance copy of said J4G Mailbag installment when it has been prepared, via email; if interested, contact me further at theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com.

                Thanks!

                O.

                • esa

                  ~ If you like I can send you an advance copy of said J4G Mailbag installment when it has been prepared, via email;

                  excellent. i respect this highly. i shall be in touch fa sho ~*~

        • Kozy

          Not quite. I’m indiscriminate with this. I don’t only apply it to a certain sect. We were only talking about “Tyrone”, so only “Tyrone” was referenced. Same goes for everyone else.

          And that’s not tough love. It’s reality. So you aren’t the first choice of the women you want. That’s not a unique problem. Not sure why one set of people should warrant special consideration or exemption from the common practice of mate selection.

          • Obsidian Files

            @Mr. Kozy:
            Yes I would agree that precision isn’t exactly your strong suit – pardon the pun.

            But since you seem to be an alright cat, I’m going to do you a solid and let you in on something that you might have missed at the top of today’s commentary:

            This is about giving voice to those who have not had a seat at the table when it comes to “Black Relationships”. I want to give the Tyrones the chance to be heard, and then to raises some questions about what I refer to as Dangerous Assumptions in our time – like the assumption that, the major reason as to why marriage has all but disappeared among the Black working classes, is due to the paucity of “marriageable” Black Men. I say its at least due to the pacuity of marriageable Black Women there – and I can point to much stronger evidence to buttress my arguments, than the Black Talking Heads can to support theirs.

            I say that merits conversation. Because it hasn’t been aireed out yet.

            Given our previous engagement, I think it mght be best to agree to disagree here; I’ll leave you to your York set…

            O.

            • Kozy

              Sure. We can disagree. Also, not sure what your fascination with my physique is, but…

              Thanks – I think?

              • afronica

                Thanks for that belly laugh. I needed that!

                • Obsidian Files

                  @Ms. Afronica:
                  “Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Is this not why you are here?”

                  I couldn’t resist…

                  O.

              • Obsidian Files

                @Mr. Kozy,
                Well, it’s because you’re so big.

                And, you’re welcome.

                O.

                • Kema

                  TWSS!!! I couldnt resist… K.

    • True life….my Woman Card may be in jeopardy but (if I’m interpreting correctly) I have to agree with Obsidian. If ‘Tyrone’s’ primary options are as listed than its looking a little grim. Let’s be real, the opposite is true for women as well; in no way am I interested in marrying a guy with a ton of kids with a ton of baby mommas, horrendous credit and just a life encased in foolery. I don’t see the issue with this concept….its true whether you admit it or not.

      I even told my dad he lucked up with my mom because they actually met at the unemployment office…she was helping him get benefits. He was PERSISTENT because he had nothing to offer and 3 kids and an ex-wife to boot. Long story short, their mutual friends convinced her to let him thank her (with dinner) for helping him and they got to know each other. Even after he got a job and they got to know each other he still had to propose like 4 times before she accepted. By no means have they had a perfect life, but they’ve stuck it out 31 years and seem happy. I consider their situation to be the exception DEF not the rule.

  • Being in charge of someone’s emotionally and mental well being for their entire life or trusting someone to be in charge of mine isn’t something I’d like to invest in at all.

    • Rachmo

      In relationships you’re not in charge if that. You can support and listen but emotional and mental health is the responsibility of the individual

      • I mean you say that but, personal experience and such. Maybe if one does it was a two way street. That’s a far off fantasy that I don’t care to indulge in my fleeting youth.

        • Rachmo

          I’m not trying to son you when I say this but I used to think that was a norm in relationships when I was younger. Based on my observations of current relationships and some more life experience, you can never be responsible for other peoples emotional and mental stability. Also you can’t be solely responsible for other peoples happiness just add to it. If someone expects you to do that RUN FAST!

          • *cues voiceover* I’m Todd from VSB, and I approve this message. *ends voiceover*

            Trust me, as someone who was tasked with maintaining the emotional and mental stability of someone else until I served #dempapers, it’s not fun. Not even close.

            • Rachmo

              I knew you’d agree with this. It rarely works out well.

          • SuperStrings

            ” If someone expects you to do that RUN FAST!”
            Like scattering roaches fast.

  • Maybe someday. Just not on the schedule of every woman I know that isn’t considering giving me buns: yesterday, because I have a daughter to raise. I ended up having to check my daughter’s teachers over some “substitute mommy” BS recently.

    But someday, I want to give it another shot. Just don’t be surprised if I don’t end up running NFL combine-style evaluations. :)

    • Vernon Gholston wowed at the combine Todd. By careful with that.

    • Sandpaper

      I’d become an ex-pat first. Relocate someplace where the playing field is more even.

  • ManofMorehouse

    I honestly don’t see the benefit in marriage. I reject the idea of getting married to “prove” that your love is deeper than what can be found and established in a long term relationship. My parents have been married close to 36 years and it’s beautiful, but just because they did it doesn’t mean I or any of my siblings should feel compelled to follow suit. Times are different. Women are different. Marriage has, in large part, become a financial institution. The divorce rate is close to 60%. As subjective as people want to make marriage seem, it appears that the basis for problems that lead to divorce are the same.

    What benefit, if any, does an educated man with a great career get from being married in 2014?? Potential loss of half of his assets?? Living vicariously through his single friends?? Having to subscribe to the dreaded “happy wife happy life credo?? I’ll pass. I don’t knock the decision for people for getting married. I just can’t differentiate the difference between a loving committed, long term relationship and putting a ring on it. Maybe there is a longing from those that did not experience a two parent home growing up? Idk, but marriage has always been “Disney”tized in that it is made to seem more like a fairy tale. Numbers never lie though, word to Michael Smith

    • Marriage has always been a financial institution across all human cultures. What assets are you personally afraid of losing?

      • ManofMorehouse

        I own a condo and a rusted 68 mustang! LOL It’s not much, but it’s mine. I would like to own a home one day, which would be up for grabs if I signed a contract binding me to another human being. Also, and this is most important, I would like to accumulate more assets in the future. Why should my interests and future and current assets be wagered on love when the average marriage lasts 5-7 years?? Why does love come with a monetary price?? “If nothing lasts forever, then what makes love the exception” -Dre 3000

        • If you’re interested in acquiring more assets than marriage definitely helps considering there are a great many government and social advantages (in addition to someone with an additional income) that being married will give you that being single can’t. Not to mention if you marry into the right family that could open a whole new world of contacts and businesses avenues that you previously unaware of/out of reach.

          • ManofMorehouse

            Do those same type of benefits outweigh the potential losses you’d acquire in a divorce?? Also, women are generally against prenups…..unless it’s their money that is being protected. That’s not something I’d gamble my livelihood on, bruh

            • Rachmo

              My friend has more assets than her now husband so she asked for a prenup. If you want one you ask for it and prosper

              • John Shannon

                I wonder since your friend- a Woman- Asked for a Prenup instead of her Husband is that different that the Typical POV ( a Man seeking a Prenup b/c he has More Assets than the Soon-to-Be Wife)

          • Like I said above, you get punished for being single in society.

            • esa

              i havent seen this. but i might just live in a rarified little corner of world where freedom of self determination is valued above all ~*~

              • Really? When I was working for NIH and had to file taxes, I requested the help of a CPA friend. The cuts that I would’ve gotten had I been married?! Bruh!!!! My God!!!!

                • esa

                  i dont see tax cuts for marriage as a punishment against being single. one system of reward does not, in my mind, equate to punishment for those who do not join the system.

                  but then again i am self employed, and my entire existence is tax deductible. are people on salary being punished for having a single employer and thus having limited tax cuts ? i see it more as, make the choices that serve your best interests.

                  and ! get a good accountant. invest in your success and others shall act accordingly ~*~

                  • Well there’s “added incentive” to be married from a societal standpoint of finances.

                    • esa

                      agreed, incentives exist. but i dont buy into the idea of “punishment” in any form, short of being sentenced by a judge.

                  • Thanks for the shoutout to tax-deductible existence. That ish is REAL. Once I saw the tax breaks, I was like man, listen…

                    • esa

                      dude. i was a salary woman for ten years. i did it up. i had power, money, status but all i really had was PMS. i was tied down, and it was my undoing, cause i am a single minded girl. it taught me a huge lesson, which was, don’t make make Faustian bargains because the pay off is your soul.

                • Kozy

                  this is very true. a close friend of mine had a child and got married in the same year. he said the tax return difference was almost unfair

                  • I see why so many girls my age continue to move forward with “surprise pregnancies”. You get about $3-5K per head.

                    • I couldn’t. I just could not. Those bennies don’t weigh enough for me.

                    • afronica

                      Penny wise and pound (of flesh) foolish. No way in hayle.

                • SuperStrings

                  “The cuts that I would’ve gotten had I been married?!”
                  It is true that there is a moral (generally Christian) imperative to promote (coerce) marriage by legislating benefits.

        • WIP

          It is always interesting to me that many men seem to assume the woman they end up with will have less than them…

          • Sigma_Since 93

            Current statistics are hard to shake down.

            • WIP

              I understand. These days, though, women go to skewl. We’re allowed to vote and own property and businesses, we can even work! Just interesting to me, that’s all…

          • ManofMorehouse

            Women generally marry up, not down. And if they do, you’d better believe they protect what’s theirs. IT’s only a problem when men choose to protect what is theirs. Then we’re called selfish…

          • esa

            never underestimate people’s ability to pick someone who will harm them. sabotage is a helluva drug. #storyofmahhlife

        • Sigma_Since 93

          “If nothing lasts forever, then what makes love the exception”

          You make it the exception.

          Don’t use half truths to make your point. Breaking up with women previously hasn’t stopped you from dating. Women have assets too and sometimes may bring more to the table than you do. What’s the plan if she’s got the C suite office and you’re stuck in middle management? What’s the plan if she doesn’t want to have kids because it will stunt her six figure career in addition to her figure? Both parties make concessions brotha.

          If you’re living vicariously through his single friends you shouldn’t be married. Holding your household down should be looked at as a badge of honor; there’s no difference here if you’re single.

          Loving someone is the hardest thing you will ever do; you work at it everyday and some days you will be great and other days you will suck. I would implore you to look at the glass as half full than half empty.

          • esa

            ~ Loving someone is the hardest thing you will ever do

            this intrigues .. could you kindly expand ?

            • Sigma_Since 93

              Love isn’t static; the person you love today will change and evolve and how you will need to pour into that person may need to evolve as well. We expect for our partner to evolve as we evolve and attempting to maintain love. eros love,and balance our own wants and desires can be daunting at times. You just gotta keep pressing.

          • ManofMorehouse

            How many women in relation to men make more than their significant other?? How many women get into those situations without establishing some type of protection for their money?? Let’s not look at the exceptions to the rule to establish arguments. Women typically marry men that are more established than they are. These are facts. There are societal pressures on women to be taken care of by their significant other financially. A woman with the C suite isn’t giving a middle management guy the time of day……unless she’s past her expiration date. Let’s be real

            • Sigma_Since 93

              Statistics also show that more women are graduating at a higher pace than men too. If you talk apples to apples in the same management tier, I will concede that men make more but I doubt the male vice president is making more than the female executive vice president. Women may have lists but many are not finding / marrying men more established than they are. Atlanta male / female disparity???

              There’s a pocket of women that have this sentiment and there are others who have taken matters into their own hands; if you had / have a daughter, I would bank she would be the latter with your guidance. Men and women with your concerns tend to utilize a prenup; all the concerns you’ve identified are easily addressed.

              • ManofMorehouse

                Question: Would you buy a new home without getting fire/flood/hurricane insurance?? What about a new car?? Why, then, would you risk up to half of your livelihood in marriage without some form of insurance?? If marriage truly is only about love and companionship, why not completely eliminate it??

                • Sigma_Since 93

                  Your question is flawed since it’s a requirement to have insurance prior to procuring those items. Again if you are on your P’s (prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance) you would get a prenup.

                  All of life is a risk; I don’t see you crying woe is me regarding the other risks you face while you are breathing.

                  • ManofMorehouse

                    Lol I’m not crying woe is me now! Lol I’m not married. These issues don’t affect me. Just giving my opinion on the topic. And you’re right. Would you insure a 5 carat ring you bought for your soon to be wife?? Or purchase an extended warranty on a new plasma screen?

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I guess my quip about how you framed the discussion is that you’ve made the assumption that you would be the one with the higher level of education, best debt to income ratio, career, investments, and social standing. It doesn’t take into account that the fact you pursued her / she chose you meant you both were upgrades from who you dealt with previously.

                      Your frame work gives you all of the power; it assumes she’s conceding to you her figure, career aspirations, and where you’ll live. It doesn’t factor that you may be past your expiration date since at your age your producing defective swimmers, more likely to have health issues / die before she does, etc.

                      There are a lot of women who are looking at the value proposition in the same way you are. I don’t blame them but I would give them the same counterpoint I’ve given you.

            • Black women are quickly outpacing black men in terms of income, education, and business ownership.

              • 321mena123

                We already have.

            • My mother has been pulling more than my father for the better part of 6 years now.

              • “past her expiration date”

                -___-

                • Sigma_Since 93

                  What type of caveman b.s. is that? Are we in some type of In Time realm where you get cast aside after some arbitrary age? SMH.

                  • Apparently so. I think I see where @disqus_ESpQr8u8Oi:disqus is trying to go with his thoughts today but it’s coming off as a bit “I’m a Bougie Black Boy” lol Education alone is actually indicative of a better potential mate for many people.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I can too but given that

                      women have seen women being played by men
                      women are advancing through the education ranks faster than men

                      advancement is happening faster for women than men

                      Women should be guarded not men.

                    • But you and I both know that it’s women who are pressed for marriage (actually probably pressed for the wedding like me but they swear they ain’t). Men don’t ever really have to worry about finding a wife until they are ready to do so. Women on the other hand, well what with the statistics about fertility, complications that increase due to age, it’s hard for women to traverse through life when society is telling them that their only reason for existing is to give birth to one man’s child(ren). Men are free to sow their oats until old age. No one cares about them lol

                    • This is the truth. The problem is that when men are looking for marriage, they are looking for MARRIAGE, not the wedding. Mix a man looking for a marriage and a woman looking for the wedding, and much drama ensues.

                    • I don’t know about that life. I’m drama free haha

                    • “Men are free to sow their oats until old age. ”

                      Let’s not even go here. Let us not want marriage, let us “find ourselves” and have plenty of single sex, and what are we? Oh, just heaux. I think what we are not saying is that marriage is seen as morally beneficial to women because society judges us on the amount of chex we’re having and with how many partners. There is a pressure to limit the body count. But if you are unattached in perpetuity, (and not in an LTR) then what? Also, there’s the idea of legitimacy for children. We may not call kids b@stards literally these days, but baby mama is the new b@stard, and if you’re the child of one, well…

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      Generally men get married because they are pressured by his girl, her family, his family, and society. He has to make her an “honest woman” lol. Also, I’ve never heard a real reason as to why men want to get married. It generally falls into three categories: religious beliefs, “my parents did it so I should too”, or “we been together long enough. Might as well…”. Men don’t press to be married. There are always exceptions to the rule, though

                    • I respectfully disagree playa. The single lifestyle gets old. Even legends want to hang it up at some point.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      You don’t have to be single in the literal sense to not be married

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      Where was the Joe I Don’t Wanna Be A Playa No More Reference?? I just knew you were going to use it.

                    • Actually, I want kicking around this link from the Manosphere around in my head: http://www.rooshv.com/the-beginning-of-the-end

                      It’s a more spelled-out version of the same thing. Also, there’s the fact that you get worn out of chasing new booty. At some point, you’ve done all you’ve come to do.

                    • panamajackson

                      I do agree with you about the single life getting old. Until it doesn’t. Let’s be real, freedom to do your thing is very real. I vacillate back and forth b/c I’m living a pretty epic life right now. My only real responsibility is to my daughter and I make sure those bases are covered, even in death, she will be covered substantially. So there are days when I think to myself that it’s time to settle down…then i walk THE f*ck up outta my house when I want to at what time I want to going wherever I please to do whoever I chose (and chooses me, no Rick Ross) and say to myself…it’s a wonderful world.

                      You’d know better than me seeing as you’ve been married, but from a pure “freedom” standpoint, that single sh*t rocks.

                    • I think part of it has to do with how I lived my single life. Keeping with the Rick Ross theme, I pushed my singledom to the limit. When I married, I had did all the things I’d wanted to do as a single man. Maybe if I didn’t go so hardcore, I would be different, but I definitely did.

                    • panamajackson

                      See, its interesting you say that, bc i feel like I dont have much to do that I want to get done either. But I’m also taking that “being picky as hell” thing to the max. I look forward to settling down…its just that until then, I’m gonna ride this train til the wheels fall off. Responsibly of course. At the same time, I’m not afraid to meet somebody and settle down with.

                    • esa

                      ~ but from a pure “freedom” standpoint, that single sh*t rocks.

                      mm i think if you choose a person who also believes in and practices pure freedom, you can both enjoy it accordingly ~*~

                    • panamajackson

                      ^things women say. lol.

                    • esa

                      i am single. one woman. not plural ~*~

                    • panamajackson

                      Indeed you are, and I appreciate the clarification. Sarcasm notwithstanding, I think you catch my drift.

                    • esa

                      (smile) i do and i dont at the same time.

                      i am moved to question why you would suggest that my words are “things women say” when i am clearly such a singular type. that’s my ego talking but it’s also this. i dont speak for other women, on principle. and i dont really like the idea that, when taken in this context, my words can be so easily dismissed.

                      being a writer and all, i stand by my words until they are proven incorrect. and then i humbly acknowledge the limitations in my thinking and adjust accordingly, because i dont care to defend a losing proposition when i can join the winning team.

                    • panamajackson

                      while i appreciate your singularity on this planet, is it not possible that the words you say can’t ALSO be spoken by many other women? It isn’t like you wrote The Oddyssey. You stated a refrain I’ve heard from many women – yes, many – when it comes to men and our idea of freedom “well if you find the right person, you can be free with them”. So while you aren’t making it a point to speak for women, I’m pointing out that what you said is, in this context, something that women say.

                      so while i’m not outright dismissing your words, im saying that while i get your point, i also think that that sounds absolutely correct from where your standing and its a place many women tend to stand.

                      basically, its the equivalent to me of a woman telling you to go out with your boys and have fun…then she calls and you answer and forget to shush everybody in the room OR go outside to a quiet place to answer the phone, she hears your fun and gets upset. She wants you to have fun…but not too much or she wants her idea of fun to be what you think is fun, when for us, it could be pissing off a garage b/c there’s a garage right there and you have to piss. freedom.

                    • esa

                      ~ I’m pointing out that what you said is, in this context, something that women say.

                      mokay. i can dig that. i dont talk to women as you do, so i wouldnt know they are out here saying this. i think the thing that ruffled my feathers was that the implications of your reply was that those women (and i by association) were pretenders, and my ego got all, whachutalkingboutwillis

                      ~ basically, its the equivalent to me of a woman telling you to go out with your boys and have fun…

                      aww man, i dont envy you at all. if you’re dealing with anyone who operates like this, freedom aint real. it’s a trick, of the most disingenuous kind.

                    • Lea Thrace

                      “if you’re dealing with anyone who operates like this, freedom aint real. it’s a trick, of the most disingenuous kind.”

                      Agree. That is “freedom” with invisible shackles that only become restrictive when your dominant engages. Freedom that aint. If that situation is happening, then one or both of you lied about what you really want.

                    • esa

                      ~ If that situation is happening, then one or both of you lied about what you really want.

                      lies are the most painful thing. not truth. lies are the illusions that bind us to an unreality that will never ever exist. staying honest is a challenging thing, but it’s a risk that nets the greatest reward because in the end, you can always say, i was true to my heart ~*~

                    • It’s all fun and games until someone’s jaw gets tapped. LOL

                    • panamajackson

                      RIGHT! I think women think our definition of “freedom” (as it were) is the same as their definition of “freedom”. Not that the two can’t co-exist or that two kindred spirts can’t be on the exact same wavelength. AND I definitely think its possible to be in a committed healthy relationship and take things to the extreme together. I’m just not sure if I think it’s the norm.

                    • esa

                      ~ I’m just not sure if I think it’s the norm.

                      it’s not. but i dont think that precludes the possibility of a woman understanding her man’s idea of freedom and allowing it to flourish. just as he allows her to live into her own. i think freedom is a highly personal concept, and not something that most folk truly want. safety is usually the preferred choice of the human animal.

                    • panamajackson

                      You’re right. A woman can understand and let a man flourish. But that requires there to be some agreement on what freedom means. Which…you know that whole personal concept you speak of.

                      Safety maybe the choice, but i honestly don’t see how that even applies here. Like, my version of freedom may not be some 8th dimension true concept, using 99 percent of my brain and lifting up the taj mahal with my nostrils, but its my version. thats all that matters. which brings it back to this, if my version of freedom looks different than yours, and you don’t find my version particularly compelling or reasonable, “happy wife happy life” comes into play.

                    • esa

                      ~ Safety maybe the choice, but i honestly don’t see how that even applies here.

                      i’m bringing up safety as the counterpoint to address why freedom isnt something most folks want. but we can check that point, it’s tangential and i’m known to take the scenic route. i respect the linear mind of men, as it reminds me of something else (tangents, dang it. i cant help mahhself).

                      ~ which brings it back to this, if my version of freedom looks different than yours, and you don’t find my version particularly compelling or reasonable, “happy wife happy life” comes into play.

                      to me, that sounds like a mistake. if my version of freedom looks different from yours, and you don’t find my version particularly compelling or reasonable, i wouldnt be able to be in a relationship. fact is, i dont like the idea of a man compromising his principles for me—or anyone else. i’m not flattered by the idea that a dude would forgo his integrity as a path to “happiness.”

                    • panamajackson

                      I agree that it would be a mistake for both parties. It also seems like more the norm than not. But then again, my view into marriage is from the outside looking in and am extrapolating based on my own dating and significant relationship experiences and anecdotes from my married compadres about whats really worth fighting for.

                    • esa

                      ~ I agree that it would be a mistake for both parties. It also seems like more the norm than not.

                      it’s no mark of health to be well adjusted to a sick society, to paraphrase someone, i forget whom.

                    • ratchet d-Ibaka

                      Lol, I thought the same!! You will limited freedom…..

                    • Secret Sauce

                      Very old. I sorta feel a tad bit embarrassed (that might be too strong of a word) to be single these days. Not that I’m being pressured or anything to marry. But, at the same time, my family and friends have never seen me with someone. At first, I was like “whatever.” (It’s a combination of a lot of things mostly notably the belief I’m not worthy of that happening).

                      Then you start to see friends and relatives (older, same age, much younger) getting hitched or in LTR and you’re just on the island of me. I can understand, Todd, I think.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      Societal pressure. You can have a girlfriend without being married, you know?

                    • “I’ve never heard a real reason”

                      Respectfully, I think your bias invalidates the list you made. What makes those not real reasons? They may not be reasons for you, but how do you weigh and check another man’s motives and find them wanting?

                    • esa

                      ~ Also, I’ve never heard a real reason as to why men want to get married.

                      i knew this guy. he told me why he got married. he decided it was time to be a father, and he wanted to have his baby in wedlock. needless to say they were divorced less than two years later, because he didn’t want a wife. his own choice, of his own volition, was his undoing. it took him years to get over his failure to understand what it meant to be a husband.

                      i think he is going to remarry, because he wants another child. he’s a formalist. it’s a question of style.

                    • panamajackson

                      You say that almost as bougie black boy is a problem. We’re selling bougie Black girl tshirts at an amazing rate. Does it only work one way?

                      I’m actually curious.

                      I’m not even saying I agree with my (assuming based on the moniker) soon to be Morehouse brother. I am saying that just like Champ said in his post, its about the principle…everything he seems to be saying is principle as well…to me at least.

                    • He reminds me of those guys I run into who stem from Jack and Jill. Many of these types trend towards “I am the Talented Tenth, I am not like other black men, I am elite, I am the top pedigree, I am ALPHA.”

                      Bougie Black Women like this exist but the sentiment from many Bougie Black Boys comes off so damb strong.

                    • Secret Sauce

                      Bougie black men and a women can come off like Axe body spray, though.

                    • afronica

                      *tambourine shake*

                    • panamajackson

                      True indeed, you’ll get no argument from me there. But that sounds like taking issue with the delivery, not the message. The message makes sense for many.

                    • But isn’t his message, I’m too smart to be black AND be married? That doesn’t add up to me.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      That’s not what I was trying to convey at all. What I was saying is that I recognize that I am a comodity, as are other educated black men. When Black women say this, y’all are the salt of the earth, Queen of the Nile. When I acknowledge this, I’m bougie?? A lot of the comments saying marriage is beneficial speak to the financial benefits. If you have some form of education, shouldn’t you be able to be self sufficient? That is what I meant

                    • Ok. Well in that case, yes, educated persons should be self sufficient and able to navigate life on their own devices.

                    • panamajackson

                      I suppose you’ll have to ask him to shorten his message. lol. What I take from it is, “Everybody’s out for self, so why should I risk what I’ve gotten for the sake of an archaic institution that nearly everybody expects to fail.” <—- my take. Again, can't say I agree, but I get why somebody might make the argument. Hell, Champ's post is about that basically.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      I come off as bougie based on my opinion?? Interesting…

                    • Isn’t everyone judged based on their opinions/views? Idk how else to ascertain you as a person see I don’t know you personally. Your word is bond online or whatever.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      My reply was based on my opinion on marriage though

                    • Got it, I replied below.

                  • panamajackson

                    While that word choice is clearly inflammatory, you do know what he means. You know good and well that guys tend to want to date women and marry women who are younger. I ain’t saying its right, but its more accurate than it isn’t. I’m pretty sure Obsidian has been preaching that gospel for eons over here, and while again, the word choice is a bit problematic, as a man, you do know exactly what he means.

                    • Exactly! How many dudes you know marry women that are 3+ years older? And what’s their number compared to those who marry younger?

                    • heh. I’m exactly 3 years older than my husband.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      As a man who married a younger woman, I would / could see woman being skeptical of us men given she’s gotta take care of some feeble minded limp d!ck ninja who’s probably gonna die before her. I wonder if he’s factoring that into the value proposition…..

                    • I’m trying to marry someone’s wealthy great grandfather so I can get in on the will.

                    • panamajackson

                      It’s the great double standard….your limp d*ck will likely last longer than her ability to get good product out of it. lol. I’m just saying that while I feel you saying its non-sense, it aint untrue. Hell you married a younger woman. While I doubt most of us would NOT date and/or marry a woman we met who was older or much older, it comes down to what you want out of life. If you’re 35 and you want kids, are you even dating women older? Likely not. That’s my point, saying expiration date is jacked up, but the principle applies to so much of what we actually factor into our own dating processes.

                  • afronica

                    Let’s not pretend that “past her expiration date” isn’t common thinking among guys.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      That’s all I’m saying. It seems like alot of the guys on here don’t want to be real. I’m not on here trying to get a number or anything like that. This is how we talk amongst ourselves. Does every man feel like this?? No. Not at all. But lets not pretend like I’m just pulling this line of thought out of thin air

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      For some people age might make some women more undesirable for some but the same thing can be said for men too; this is why I’ve never knocked women for having a list. There’s some age where a man goes from being a man to being a sugar daddy; a woman must chose what she wants from that man but he still has value.

                  • ManofMorehouse

                    This comment may be met with harsh responses but f— it. Keep it 100. Generally, the older a man gets, the more education, money, assets, position he accrues, the more attractive he is to women in a wide range. This is the exact opposite in regards to women, for the most part. Things valued to men, at least aesthetically, are found in women that are younger. In fact, many guys are intimidated by women that are accomplished. Again, this is a generalization, but many women complain of being overlooked all the time when they have their ish together but are a little “matured”

                    • Kema

                      “In fact, many guys are intimidated by women that are accomplished.”
                      Its this type of thinking that have men paying half of 30K. lol

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      Lmao probably, but I hope you got what I was trying to say lol

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      The underlying issue is control; an older woman isn’t going yield like you want her to. Melodie Hobson has the same career peen as a dude (education, career, status). I doubt she was going to make herself play second fiddle to George when they decided to get married.

              • WIP

                I’m a woman who makes/has more than her husband. But I guess I fall into the expired category. :)

                • Epsilonicus

                  My wife used to make more than me. No complaints at all. Its all our money anyway.

            • SuperStrings

              ” Women typically marry men that are more established than they are. These are facts.”
              Not quite. Women tend to marry men with more income, but that doesn’t translate into being more established. Pretty much all research has born out that women, in general, are more fiscally responsible than men. So, women may tend to have less money than the men they marry, but they also tend to be better at managing their money. So, who’s more established, the man who makes more money, or the woman who’s better at managing less money?

              • ManofMorehouse

                “I want to see the receipts” lmao

                • SuperStrings

                  You can look it up. FICO and all three credit bureaus have done studies on this. Their research and white papers are often only available internally, but it may be published. I’ve also developed behavioral and credit models for almost a decade now, and it’s pretty consistent that women have better credit than men. Certainly, individual experiences may differ, but in aggregate it’s true.

            • afronica

              I look around my circle of friends, and all I can tell you is, things done changed.

            • 321mena123

              For black women? A lot. For white women? The tables are turning.

            • dmcmillian72

              Serious question… How old are you?

          • ratchet d-Ibaka

            Oh wow Sig! That was heartfelt.

    • I’m down with this. Let’s go half on a baby in 15 years.

    • h.h.h.

      i appreciate your commentry. i also struggle with this conundrum, because i’m slowly not getting what the benefit is. yet, i do desire to get married, i have no idea why tho. so i have to figure it out on my own, i guess. it seems that you have come to your own conclusion, that the single life is the life for you (or an extreme extended singlehood). i simply encourage you not to bring someone along for the ride, who is seeking a different destination.

    • nillalatte

      “I just can’t differentiate the difference between a loving committed, long term relationship and putting a ring on it.”

      I know I’m late, but… it is hard isn’t it? I’d rather be in a loving, committed, long-term relationship than be legally obligated to anyone. IJS

  • Tentpole

    What is a good relationship? It’s when you are with someone who loves you more than you love yourself and you know that and you are going to do your best not to let them down.

    • John Shannon

      Interesting you say that, as there are folks that say Folks have to be 100% Each when they Meet and THEN put Half Down in a Marriage, so there won’t be any 80/20 BS that’s been going on for years….. Others say a Man Should Love a Woman more than She Loves Him…….

  • With any choice, you can find a rationale or an excuse. Logically speaking, marriage is a poor investment. Ring, wedding, honeymoon for someone who apparently loves you eternally anyway? Kids, another poor investment? Realistically only a small subset of people should be marrying and breeding families.

    Yet i want that. My parents realistically married too young, had too many kids, picked the wrong state to raise a middle class black family in, but they made it work. Sometimes you have to be irrational, sometimes you just have to defy logic, sometimes you do things that don’t make sense…and whats more irrational, illogical and implausible as i can love this person until they die. Challenge accepted i guess.

  • Sandpaper

    Get married Champ. Freedom doesn’t have to be lost. I’m sure you’ve already established certain rules and conditions.

  • WIP

    “It is crazy. It doesn’t make any damn sense. And it is f*cking insane.”

    I disagree. As crazy as the world is, I think it makes complete sense to find a trusted partner with whom you will traverse life. Not to compare everything to The Walking Dead, but they often talk about how people in that world [the zombie apocalypse] can’t make it alone anymore. I say it can be just as hard to make it in the regular world. Marriage and procreation seem to set you up for a little better elderly lifestyle as well. Somebody needs to make sure you don’t hoard yourself into a filthy, roach-infested apartment right? Or at least you’ll be hoarded in with someone else so the rats won’t eat your throat while you sleep. Being “against” marriage doesn’t seem particularly purposeful. I can, however, perfectly understand the feeling of wanting to be left the fcvk alone.

    • ManofMorehouse

      It seems as though you’re looking for a care taker instead of a marriage. If that’s the case, Shady Acres retirement home may better fit your needs! LOL Joking, but why can’t what you describe work in a relationship without getting married?? That ring provides a false sense of security. Everyone posting in here can name at least two marriages where infidelity is present. What exactly does marriage provide again??

      • WIP

        Can’t I have a marriage and a care taker? Is it either/or? LOL
        Pray tell, why can’t what I describe work in a marriage? What is the difference between living married and being married? Everyone here can name an unmarried couple where infidelity is present…

        • ManofMorehouse

          One major reason is the abolishment of common law marriage in most states. Today, you can live with someone and not be considered married under the law. LEt me ask this question: If marriage is only about love and happiness with no monetary ulterior motive, why not go in with a prenup and no community property clause?? Would you be ok with that?

          • WIP

            “If marriage is only about love and happiness with no monetary ulterior
            motive, why not go in with a prenup and no community property clause??”

            “no monetary ulterior motive”…hmm- poor people get married. So in that case there would be nothing to clause about (LOL) because there’s nothing to lose. I’d guess that most people don’t feel they have that much to lose, the 99%, if you will.

            • ManofMorehouse

              It’s all relative and I’d venture to say more dangerous to get married poor. You have less money so you’d have more to lose. 50% of $30,000 will have you on skid row

              • I mean…I didn’t major in math, so I’m confused. I wasn’t aware that poor people really went through divorce proceedings that skimpy. You’ll have to school me. I can divide $30K by two, but does every spouse automatically get half if half is less than a living wage? And certainly, if half is $15K, no one is sitting up in the lap of luxury.

                But I’m going to take a stab and say I disagree. Cohabitation, at least, combines financial responsibilities under one roof. People are going to get booed up, that’s just nature; it costs more to maintain two apartments at $700/mo x 2 than it does living in the same $700 apartment. I think it’s one of the reason they say that poor, single-parent households suffer most in our society, not poor married ones.

                Besides, in all your defense of the dangers of marriage, the only one I have heard you list is divorce. Okay, divorce is a threat. But are you saying that there are NO bennies in marriage at all? Or do you just not see them as worth it…because there’s a difference.

                • ManofMorehouse

                  I see absolutely no benefit in marriage for an educated African American male in 2014. You can share some, if you know of any…

                  • You answered my question! :) I can’t tell a man why he should get married; I’m a woman.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      But you can share why it would be important you to to be married as opposed to just cohabitating

                    • But your thesis is why marriage is beneficial for an African American MALE. Sharing why I, an African American FEMALE, want to get married is tangential to your point. Even if I list why it’s important to me, it still has no bearing on why any man should.

                  • For starters, you’ll live longer. But if it’s not your thing, it’s not your thing. Just don’t be that guy that wants “marriage benefits”. you wanna be single, be single. Hold yo’self down and prosper.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      What are these marriage benefits that you speak of miss?? I’m curious

                    • Ehhh people die everyday B. Married or otherwise :-)

                    • panamajackson

                      I’m not sure why, but this made me laugh out loud.

                    • Camilleblu

                      Lol @die everyday B.

                      True, but it has been shown that married people in general *die later* then non married people.

                    • That’s so arbitrary to me because there’s so many ways one can die. It don’t take much to end a life. Walking out of the house 2 seconds later than you had planned could result in you getting hit by a car or something.

                    • Camilleblu

                      Well, yes, of course there are #50millionwaystodie. But I’m talking about doing things *within your control* to maintain/extend your life – regular doctor visits, etc.

                    • I do that as a single woman. Pap smears, dental check ups, what’s preventing single people from caring about themselves? I don’t understand this line of thinking at all. I care about my body. From what I’ve seen, married folks tend to get preoccupied with XYZ and their health falls to the wayside.

                    • SuperStrings

                      This is just a correlation, not causation. Do married people longer because they got married, or do healthier people tend to get married?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      I saw where it said married people are less likely to engage in risky behavior. That is why they live longer.

                      PS: Also, married people are more likely to go to their doctor’s visits, have health insurance, and get needed medications.

                    • You could be minding your business at home and a tornado rip through it and kill you instantly.

                    • SuperStrings

                      Are married people less likely to engage in risky behavior, or are people who don’t engage in risky behavior more likely to get married?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      The former.

                    • Kema

                      I think its causation. Makes sense that having someone leads to better health. I read once that one of the reasons women live longer was due to their involvement in their kids lives. They are now seeing an increase in men’s life span since men are becoming more involved.

                    • Camilleblu

                      I’m not sure that healthier people get married, but I do think that when married, (in general) you have that other person there to push you to go to the doctor…investigate things further…stay healthy for…. Example – I have a friend that was recently diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer. Her husband noticed the lump and he is the one that pushed her to get it checked out. She would not have investigated it further were it not for him.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      This is why I stay feeling on Mrs SS93 b00bies. You ain’t leaving me prematurely!

                    • Camilleblu

                      Lol! Mmmhmm…just looking out for her health and all.

                    • Val

                      It has a lot to do with humans being social beings. We operate better physically and mentally when we have a partner in life.

                  • I just realized you didn’t help me out with the math. I’m so serious. lol. If you’re so inclined? :) Do they really strip people of half a $30K salary? I am running too many mental scenarios for it to make sense to me.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      I recommend that you go to a local divorce court proceeding in your city. Just go in and say that you are a law student interested in family law. It changed my life how vindictive people could be towards the ones they wanted to “share forever” with. Very entertaining and very scary for a man. To answer your question though, yes. Women go after alimony on low wages

                    • heh. I see what you’re saying. But I also don’t think that marriage engenders this type of vindictiveness. My FB timeline is an unfortunate witness to the vitriol between unmarried exes. The honeymoon phase of any relationship is “forever” until it isn’t, and then you can’t stand em, right?

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      But when you’re not married, you can kick the person out of your life and just smash their best friend until you’re over her. Marriage is a different beast. Doubly so, if you have kids

                    • What changes? Like, I understand people fall out but Jesus. I think many men are drawn towards batshid crazy women who are hayle bent on destroying everything around them.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      The thing is that there are signs before marriage. Folks just ignore them or hope that they change once you get married.

                    • Where is @disqus_jaQFOkPNbv:disqus? Did you ignore the signs? Why did you ignore them? Is chex the trump card for sanity?

                    • I see my presence has been summoned. :)

                      First, let me back it up on the asset thing. In my experience, it depends on how willing the other partner is going to go to screw someone over. In my case, I assumed all the marital debts in exchange over full control over all intellectual property from prior and during the marriage. (Long story short, there’s a small, but real, potential for me to make serious bank off of some work I’ve been doing, and broad ain’t getting half.) FWIW, when a woman comes after the money, it really isn’t about the money, but an argument by other means.

                      In terms of red flags, well, they really didn’t pop up until AFTER the wedding. Before, it was pretty ordinary beef, and then of course the wedding. The thing about red flags is that if someone is dedicated to hiding them, there’s only so much you can *reasonably* do before you end up as crazy as you are. Simply put, it’s a crap shoot.

                    • Lea Thrace

                      PLEASE SAY THIS AGAIN!!!!!

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      That craziness usually translates to their sex game. That’s what keeps men sticking with those type of chicks. Real talk

                    • Sahel

                      Women change when they get that ring,this is true

                    • Lea Thrace

                      EVERYBODY changes with marriage. This phenomenon is not localized to the female sex.

                    • Kema

                      I’m a divorcee. The total expenses to do so came under $100.

                    • Aly

                      Ditto, Kema. We were too poor to hire lawyers to fight it out in court lol. We each walked away with what we brought into the marriage. I wonder if this is the norm.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      My uncle was divorced twice. The 1st one they walked away with what they had. The second one got ugly. But then his 2nd wife was utterly nuts and he knew it when he got married.

                    • Kema

                      I read that only 5% of divorces end up in divorce court. Those against marriage are always bringing up the horror stories when they are not the norm.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      If that’s a true stat, then it definitely would not be the norm. But I’d venture to say happy marriages aren’t the norm either. Serious question for you, if it’s too personal please forgive me and don’t answer: after going through the divorce you had, has it changed your opinion on marriage? Would you do it again? Why or why not?

                    • Kema

                      Going through a divorce has not really changed my view on marriage. I didnt have a bad divorce and am actually still cool with my ex. I still think marriage is a worthwhile commitment and would definitely do it again with the right man.

                    • afronica

                      I think my divorce cost $250. Uncontested, left with what we respectively brought to the marriage, no kids, no joint assets, renounced claims to retirement funds, still friends who have a drink when he’s in town…

                      I hear so many horror tales, but like Aly I wonder what’s the norm.

                    • Kema

                      Also a small percent of divorces actually end up in divorce court so you are looking at the worst case scenarios.

                    • afronica

                      So you’re evaluating something (marriage) based on a worst possible scenario? That doesn’t seem logical. It seems to be reasoning based on emotion, as if you’ve scared yourself out of making a rational evaluation.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      I’m saying I already didn’t feel compelled to marry. After seeing that in person, as well as hearing horror stories from married friends, I can’t point to a logical reason for me to walk down the aisle. Having a long term girlfriend?? I’m with a beautiful woman now. She wants to be married but knows my stance. I’m sure it’ll come to a head sooner or later, but why fix something that works perfectly?? I have what I hold as a wonderful relationship now and I love my girlfriend very much. Why shouldn’t that be enough??

                    • afronica

                      I am all for doing what you want to do. I wish more people were honest and firm about what they want and don’t want. It sounds like marriage isn’t for you, so Be Free.

                      I do hope, however, that your lady wises up sooner rather than later. If she really wants to be married, that’s not going to happen with you, and she needs to move on – like yesterday. No shots.

                    • Camilleblu

                      “If she really wants to be married, that’s not going to happen with you, and she needs to move on – like yesterday. No shots.”

                      Truth. I think this is a mistake MANY women make.

                    • afronica

                      *I* made that mistake. My ex said he didn’t want to be married. I thought that would change. We got married and then divorced three years later. One lesson I learned was that when someone tells you what they want and who they are (word to Ms. Angelou), pleeease believe them. I also learned that marriage was more important to me and that I was more serious about it than I thought.

                      Like Kema, I’d do it again with the right guy, but only if I can get some of what Maris is selling down thread.

                    • Camilleblu

                      I hear you. I feel the same way about remarrying. My divorce didn’t color my thoughts on marriage. Just made me more aware of what I expect out of myself and a future spouse.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      “she needs to move on – like yesterday. No shots.”

                      No need to even say no shots because it is true. And to be honest, he should leave her because he is doing her a disservice by staying with her knowing that he does not want the same things he wants. She wasting the prime years of her life with a dude that does not have congruent desires. And he should man up and walk away

                    • afronica

                      I’d like to agree, but I have recently decided to stop believing in rainbows. Guys will take until you have nothing else to give. And they will do it without guilt or shame.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      It seems like the ultimate slimeball move.

                      I remember dating a young woman in college and she wanted marriage right after we graduated. I ignored it for a second but gave it some thought. I thought that it was cruddy to remain with her knowing that I did not want to marry her. I left her. It was super hard to leave. I loved her like crazy. But I knew it would be nothing but misery if we stayed together.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      It’s a slimeball move to let her know my feelings and SHE stays?? Smh. Whatever makes sense to you bruh. She’s the victim.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Its slimeball bc you know she doing some self-destructive ish by staying and you feed into it.

                      And on your side, when it ball falls apart, it is going to be uglier than if you just leave know and find someone who is just as awesome and doesn’t want marriage.

                    • afronica

                      …and this is how I know that you’re a decent human being and that you truly cared for her. Rare air.

                    • dmcmillian72

                      And in the end will shamelessly say it’s all the woman’s fault for not leaving sooner…

                    • Camilleblu

                      I have a question for you. And please don’t feel obligated to respond if it’s too personal. Since you know that your girlfriend wants to marry you, and you do not want to get married (at all – not just specifically not to her) – how do you navigate your relationship(s)? I mean, do you do what many women do and hope to change her mind regarding marriage? Why do you (I’m assuming here) let the relationship continue to prosper if you know that you have an inherently different ideology on marriage? I’m genuinely interested in your response, and again, I’m not trying to throw any shade whatsoever.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      I continue my relationship because I love her and am genuinely happy with her. I’ve never led her on though. Never. We’ve had conversations about it and my stance hasn’t changed. She also has been told by her mom that she should move on. What I dont get is, if you’re happy, why do you need the event, the paper, the ring?? If I was given a real reason as to why its necessary, I’d do it in a heart beat. As it stands, its pointless

                    • Epsilonicus

                      So why don’t you leave if this incongruency exists? I know you said you love her but doesn’t it feel unethical stay with someone knowing you don’t want the same end point?

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      Again, because I love and care for her. Feelings aren’t just turned on and off. ?It would be different if she was being misled. That’s not the case. It’s two people in this relationship and she is not handcuffed to my hip. Apparently she enjoys the relationship as well

                    • Epsilonicus

                      But if you really loved her, you would let her go and find someone who wants the same things out of life?

                    • Camilleblu

                      Ok. Thank you for that. So, to add on to what Eps said below. I understand your valid point about feelings, but the bottom line is that she wants marriage and you do not. And that you know it will come to a head at some point. You yourself said that men tend to prosper as they age and women do not. So, that being said, why do YOU not make the choice to move on since it seems like she is wasting her *good years* on trying to convince you to marry her? Lol, I don’t mean to be corny but this sounds like a perfect example of “if you love something, you’ll let it go.”

                  • SuperStrings

                    “I see absolutely no benefit in marriage for an educated African American male in 2014.”
                    Does this presuppose that there is benefit for an educated White male in 2014. If so, what is the benefit that he receives that seems to elude the black man?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Good question. I hope he answers it.

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      Black men are wanted by every woman in the world, period. Add education, a good job, and a few assets in the mix and you have your pick of whoever you want. Chris Rock once stated “you’re only as faithful as your options”. Truer words were never spoken

                    • “Black men are wanted by every woman in the world, period.”

                      Where are you getting this tidbit from?

                    • ManofMorehouse

                      It’s the truth, if for nothing more than to just test out the stereotype…

                    • SuperStrings

                      “Add education, a good job, and a few assets in the mix and you have your pick of whoever you want.”
                      Are you saying a White male with these qualities doesn’t have viable options?

                    • afronica

                      Wow. @AfroPetite:disqus really called it. You are Bougie Black Man, cape rippling in the wind.

                    • The Champ
                    • Epsilonicus

                      Utterly hilarious!

                    • afronica

                      *i didn’t want to say that out loud. but yeah.*

                    • WIP

                      When I read commodity, I immediately thought Diva Dude. LOL No further explanation needed.

                  • Tentpole

                    All that means is that you know all the wrong people in all the wrong places. Marriage with the right person means that you don’t have to do all the heavy lifting all the time.

                • ForeverCC

                  as my sister says “marriage is the number one cause of divorce.”

                • John Shannon

                  “Cohabitation, at least, combines financial responsibilities under one roof. People are going to get booed up, that’s just nature; it costs more to maintain two apartments at $700/mo x 2 than it does living in the same $700 apartment.”

                  And yet the Religious Folk- Majority are Christians- frown upon that Important Tidbit, and with Conservatives, aka the GOP/Tea Party, not only Shaming Folks that DO Cohabitate, they are simultaneously cutting Safety nets for the Poor, specifically Single Parents, who are mostly Mothers, and said Single Parents are more Urban Residents than Suburban ones

              • WIP

                Is it an automatic 50% taken from the man? That’s the law? lol

                • ManofMorehouse

                  If it’s not settled and no prenup is in place, ish gets real!!

                • Epsilonicus

                  Essentially you split all assets after all joint debts are paid

          • SuperStrings

            ” If marriage is only about love and happiness with no monetary ulterior motive”
            Historically (and still the case in many cultures), marriage has generally had nothing to do with love and happiness; it’s about socioeconomics. Romance as a precursor for marriage is relatively recent as a general cultural phenomenon.

            • esa

              romance, the most fleeting of all emotions, as the basis for a legal contract. progress is illusory, but aint nothing but nothing like a good fantasy ~*~

              • SuperStrings

                ’tis true

          • Apparently not in TX -____- my home girl cannot kick her live in bf/baby daddy out because of the common law marriage statutes in place. Boooooo

            • Epsilonicus

              MD has no common law marriage but you also cannot kick anyone out without an eviction notice and you have to give them 30 days.

              • WIP

                Landlord/tenant law is a biyotch.

                • But he doesn’t pay for anything concerning that apartment…..how does he have any right to say that he can stay?

                  • WIP

                    If you never required them to pay, you can’t hold that against them. I think it has something to do with letting a person stay for a period of time (I’m paraphrasing here) you essentially allow them to establish that as their place of residence so you then can’t just put them out .

                    • Ok, that’s just her having her nose open and making irresponsible life choices. Ain’t nobody living in an edifice I foot the bill for without paying too.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      In many states, if you let anyone live with you, you have to follow eviction procedures.

            • miss t-lee

              Yep. Common law is serious here.

      • esa

        ~ What exactly does marriage provide again??

        in the most literal sense, it’s a legal contract. to me, thas a turn off because i dislike the idea of the government being involved in my affairs but .. i will say that i saw one instance where marriage appealed to me and it was this: my boy’s mother and stepfather were together for 40 years before they decided to get married. and i understood why. they were approaching old age, and they needed to deal with the reality of illness and death. it’s kinda terrifying to think you wouldnt be allowed to be at the bedside of your loved one in the hospital during their most vulnerable moments because you don’t have your legal affairs in order.

        the other side to it is this: my girl’s husband died last year at the age of 40. they’d been married ten years. she is now responsible for managing his legacy now that he has passed. had they not been married, what would happen to his archive ? would his entire life’s work end up in some cartons in the basement ?

        the thing about marriage is: it gives you legal power to you make your own family, and the government protects your rights, and that ain’t no small thing.

        • ManofMorehouse

          So does establishing a living will and having power of attorney…

          • esa

            excellent point. and if you break up, you have to dissolve those contracts. and people can dispute that if they want to fight. in the end, to me bringing legalities into personal relationships is a risk / reward situation, no matter how you slice it ..

            • Epsilonicus

              “bringing legalities into personal relationships is a risk / reward situation”

              Not bringing them in is a risk/reward also. Caught up either way.

              • esa

                choose your own adventure ~*~

  • Michelle

    Strangely, I have the desire for marriage than the desire to become a mother (side note: if I had to measure both “desires”, I would say 93.2% for marriage and 00000000.01% for kids).
    But the only thing that I am not looking forward to is the co-habitation. I am a Gemini, through and through. I am moody. And there are times when I want to be left alone… Alone-alone… There are days when I will not initiate conversations and I don’t interact with people. There will be days… Okay, there will be weeks, when it will feel as if I disappear from off of the planet. I like to consider those days as “re-charging the battery”.
    In my past relationships, it was a problem. My exes were all extroverts who NEEDED to interact with people, so there were arguments.

    • Epsilonicus

      I have friends who are married and live apart. As in, they never moved in together at all. And guess what? It works. They love it. I love it for them. Just find someone who agrees and make it work!

      • Lea Thrace

        I have friends that operate similarly. They live in the same house, but completely separate wings. Have separate finances, separate vacations, separate family holidays. I don’t get it but I’ll be damned if it hasn’t worked for 20+years for them. Who am I to knock that? Just a single unmarried woman. Lol.

        • Sahel

          Sounds like an open marriage to me

          • Lea Thrace

            Surprisingly it was not open. They did not sleep with or see other people. They just really really like the autonomy that this setup affords them.

      • miss t-lee

        I also have a friend who does this. They have kids and everything, and it’s works for them.

    • Kema

      Tim Burton And Helena Bonham Carter. They are not married but have been together since 2001. They have kids and live in adjoining houses. lol

    • Lea Thrace

      “My exes were all extroverts who NEEDED to interact with people, so there were arguments.”

      Maybe the issue (if there is an issue) is who you are picking as your future (exes)? Find someone on the edges of intro and extro? But then again opposites attract no matter how destructive or incompatible those attractions can be.

      • Epsilonicus

        Opposites may attract but similarities are what keep people together.

    • dmcmillian72

      “Strangely, I have the desire for marriage than the desire to become a mother (side note: if I had to measure both “desires”, I would say 93.2% for marriage and 00000000.01% for kids).” — @disqus_W07Ex2hDje:disqus

      You’re reading my mind… *sigh*

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