“If he’d just do better then we’d be good. But he flat out refuses to do the little things I ask him to do…I don’t know what to do. I love him and only want to be with him…but it’s just frustrating….MEN SUCK…”
After assuring her that men do not (all) indeed suck, I hit her with a bit of reality and a bit of indirect advice regarding her relationship and her man that I think is pretty doggone poignant:
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. You have to take folks as they are and be proud of them for making changes in the positive direction. Or roll out.
Now of course, she agreed with me in principle but didn’t get why it had to be so difficult. This man she’s been dating has been doing the same stuff for the entire seven months that they’d been dating and she’s still waiting on him to have one of those light-bulb moments where he realizes that if he doesn’t change he’ll lose her.
Except he has no incentive. Nothing that he’s doing or has done has indicated to her that anything would be any different. She just wants it to be and thinks that for her, he should make those changes. Put a pin in that, we’ll come back to that.
But the same goes for him. Nothing that has happened has indicated to him that she’s going to leave him or make him suffer any consequences. So they’re both relying on past behaviors to predict the future. For her, she just refuses to accept that he is who he is, and for him, he doesn’t believe that who he is will cause him any longterm suffering.
Impasse.
I do realize at this point that many women, and men for that matter, may think, why won’t he just “do right”? “Do right” is such a nebulous phrase and largely only involves actions men should be making in order to grow as people (?) and keep our women happy. I’ve got a whole theory and blog post about the concept of “do right” differences between men and women and the stakes involved. It’s coming.
I’m always amazed at how many women tell me that they can’t believe a man won’t just do better so that he doesn’t lose her. This isn’t intended to sound too trivializing, but I truly think that a lot of women overstate their own value to the men in their lives that the point these realizations arise. This man spent his entire life being who he is until she showed up and he’s supposed to see this particular woman and make every change she wants him to make? Come on. That’s unrealistic AND assumes that the changes she wants him to make are for him and not just to make her happy. Real change is personal, not just to keep a woman. I realize that, in general, women do a lot more compromising than men do. It’s true. Oh yeah, it’s true. However, you rarely hear women talking about needing to change. Just something to think about.
(Though the self-help industry is being kept afloat by somebody so I’m guessing maybe women are constantly going through “improvement”? That’s a question by the way.)
Anyway, once you realize that what somebody has always done is likely to be what they will always do short of some life-altering realizations, you learn that the ball is in your own court. Which is what I told my friend. He is who he is, either shut up about it or vote with your feet and leave him. I have no idea what she’s going to do, but she did walk away from that convo with some sort of resolve.
Of course, she could just resolve to continue to be upset. Her prerogative, but at least she realized the ball was in her court.
Bobby Brown.
Granted, as grown ups we all learn that compromise is the name of the game and some of us take longer to get to that point than others do – and I’m mostly talking about men – but compromise is an outcome, I do think that you have to take folks as they are if you chose to enter into cahoots with them. Of course, that’s not for the large scale problems like infidelity or pathological lying, but if you stay with folks at that point, then while it isn’t your fault if they cheat, it is your fault for staying with them knowing that they might.
Chuuch.
-VSB P aka PJANGO JACKSON aka MR. I DONT KNOW WHAT HE’S SAYING EITHER aka GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRL HE A 3
(A version of this post appeared on Guyspeak.com on January 5, 2013)
I continue to be confused by women who complain how their man ain’t sh*t but they won’t leave him. I don’t even bother asking anymore. I just sit there and pretend to listen to them complain as the sound of chomping on nachos drowns them out. I can’t be Iyanla; I can’t fix this…
Mmmm, are those chicken nachos? *Scoots closer to IAYP & helps self to a chip*
never do anything like Carmelo outside a team bus
*passes honey nut Cheerios*
*Tastes a spoonfull*
Agreed. Two examples I’ve been seeing in reality television (*hangs head in shame*): The Game and his fiance’. She seems to hate everything about their relationship and the way he operates in it, but is steady planning a wedding talking about, “If we’re getting married, this has to change.” What? Also, Kenya on RHOA. Now, we all know that she’s not in a real relationship with Moesha’s daddy, but in any case, in the last episode, she said, “You treat me like sh!t. You act like you don’t like me.” Ummm… but you’re pressuring him to propose to you? Like… why? But what do I know. I’ve been single since before we had a Black president.
*eats croutons*
*watches C-Span by hisself*
“Real change is personal, not just to keep a…”
This is all that needed to be said. Goodnight VSB! eemmmuuuaahhhhh
So much win in this post.
U right PJ; the spots on a leopard don’t change. Men are creatures of habit- sometimes mostly bad/annoying/delusional. Agreed. Accept them as is, no warranty. When dat shyt wears out, trade it for a new model.
lol
Correction Nilla! People are creatures of habbit. As long as I am getting what I need from you why should I change. If you don’t like it LEAVE. Wanting me to be a certain way because you couldn’t find the one you wanted and you accepted me think you could change me to see things your way is your stupidity.Disclaimer!! this response is not directed to you Nilla I was on my soapbox.
Life would be easy if it were that simple. But the fact remains, many men do make changes in their behavior without being threatened with a break up. They do it because they realize they realize they are hurting her and they sincerely don’t want that to occur. I’ve seen it, you’ve seen it, we all have seen it plenty. But that’s not as satisfying as a simplistic viewpoint that allows you to call women stupid.
“Wanting me to be a certain way because you couldn’t find the one you wanted and you accepted me”
Oh, good lord. Me and my guy just had this ‘fight’ the other day. It was all about older women ‘settling’ for older sickly men, men on the prowl for younger women, and cougars and cubs.
What sets me off about most male aka dude logic is this… a lot of you all think, and are quite sure about this, as he is, that a woman will do just about anything to keep a man. The only thing about this line of thinking is… you’re wrong.
Maybe SOME women will and there are varying situations granted. But, take for example, me. I’m an older woman, been married, been divorced, have kids, got the paper on my own. All I’m really looking for is a companion and sometimes emotional support with one who will treat me with respect and dignity while we enjoy each others company, and ‘benefits’ if we want. Other than that, some women ain’t trying to ‘keep’ a dude. Women in my situation will ‘accept’ you, to a certain point, but I’ll be damn if we ‘settle’ for/with you.
See, some women don’t HAVE to settle. Then the guy comes in and says, “Then you’ll be alone when your old.” You know what, considering the alternative, I’m good with that. Why can’t men be good with knowing that some women enjoy their freedom AND times of companionship, but can and want to keep them separate?
Okay, off my soapbox now. Thanks for playing.
” All I’m really looking for is a companion and sometimes emotional support with one who will treat me with respect and dignity while we enjoy each others company, and ‘benefits’ if we want.”
Yes to all of this.
OMG u said it nillalatte!! I feel the same way! no need to settle. not the end of the world if u don’t have a man. sometimes i just want to go to a movie or a concert. doesnt mean i want to house ur ass up and make u my forever!
I agree.
Though I disagree that there is anything such as dude logic.
The fact is men attempt to be logical first and romantic second, whereas women try to be romantic first, and logical second. Men have to get women, women simply have to receive men. Thus a guy could have all the romantic ideas in his head, but if he doesn’t understand the logic of getting women, he’s not going to get them. Women don’t have that problem, they don’t need to understand how men operate to get them, all they need to do is accept. Due to this, women can be romantic; they don’t have to submit to the limitations of reality in coming up with ideas of what they want or desire from men. Where a lot of women end up having problems though, is when the romance passes away (it always does) and they don’t know how to apply logic to keep the relationship going.
mm i am with alla that except the part about stayinn on afta tha romance is gone. me too.
but….b-but…WHAT ABOUT ALL THAT POTENTIAL?! T_T its hard to see all that raw material go to waste.
This is so true and applies to more than romantic relationships too. Women (read: my mother) do the same thing with their children (read: my brother) and refuse to see that at some point a person is who he or she is and probably won’t do some major overhaul of their personality. I guess this is why they say love is blind because the same crap you would NEVER take from a coworker or friend etc., women will accept endlessly from those they love just waiting for the day it changes.
That is true and then get mad when you tell them that the guy is making a fool out them! I never understood those types of women are you that desperate to be with a man.
It’s funny given the frequency of failed relationships, women are so reluctant to accept they whiffed. If I spent 3 months with a woman and she turned out to suck, I’m not going to anymore time trying to recoup losses, charge it to the game.
Part of it is gender standards. Body count is seen as a stain on a woman’s “purity,” so every time she leaves a man that she has had chex with, she leaves with -1 point on her perceived worth. We are under greater pressure to get it right the first time. Men aren’t subject to the same pressure (unless it’s artificially imposed by divorce legislation).
Men are like Uzis; Women are like sniper rifles.
O.
for me, purity is a state of mind, and nothinnn else ~*~
One time, a woman I VERY briefly “dated” told me she wish I would change a little because I was too nice and I kept putting other people’s feelings before my own. Aw forreal, b*tch? Okay. So during sex, I stopped faking it….wish granted….
Ouch!
And it’s comments like that which makes people in the government ban high capacity magazines. Shots motherf*cking FIRED! LOL
Holmes-style shots fired !
( too soon?)
TUK…gd one!
You react in anger to advice that is meant to help you become more assertive? Smh.
SweetSass,
there was no anger there, at all. Pure honesty.
Calling someone a ‘bitch’ is an angry and defensive response.
I call everyone a b*tch. Casually. No anger behind it.
You do not call everyone a b*tch.
In my personal life? Yes, I do. I (jokingly) call every one of my friends a bitch. Mostly male friends. I don’t call many of my female friends b*tches unless I’m close with them and we have that level of comfort. Don’t tell me what I don’t do like you know me. Girl bye….
Thank you. But this is Sweet Sass, so I’m not surprised that she didn’t get it.
You’re welcome my crater inducing lover!!
I like that one.
I don’t know.
Prior meeting M, I was focused on attempting to juggle as many women as possible. My best friend and me (Chris Hefley, RIP) had a little “basketball” team concept where we plugged women into our “starting lineups.”
Yes, the hotheaded enthusiasm/misdirection of youth.
In my case, two things; I later realized that I was neither ready for actual “love” nor certain of precisely what I wanted in a woman.
M changed *all* of that, and only when she pointed that 1. that manner in which I was treating her was indicative of a lack of seriousness about the two of us, and 2. she felt that she had no other option but to move on, if that was indeed the case.
You know that…pit you get in your stomach? When Martin finally realized Gina wasn’t playing about leaving and he did the little kid “I gotta pee REAL bad” dance in response to that realization? It all hit me. This woman has quite a bit of what I was looking for, and dammit, I backslid – kicking and screaming – into “love.”
Complete 180. I loved this woman. Was in love with her. Was scared as you know what, but…here I was.
Is that an exception to the general rule? Quite likely. And I think that WE (men and women are both guilty) tend to find someone who we are physically attracted to, and then project our ideal vision of them onto said individuals. And we wait. And we hope that one day they will step into and seamlessly fit that astral mold that we’ve created for them.
Many of us know precisely what we want…and allow that to cloud our vision, preventing us to more quickly ascertain…what we *need*.
“M changed *all* of that, and only when she pointed that 1. that manner in which I was treating her was indicative of a lack of seriousness about the two of us, and 2. she felt that she had no other option but to move on, if that was indeed the case.
You know that…pit you get in your stomach? When Martin finally realized Gina wasn’t playing about leaving and he did the little kid “I gotta pee REAL bad†dance in response to that realization? It all hit me.”
— This is what I call falling back and giving a guy space to sort himself out. Minimizes stress experienced by the woman. It’s too much trouble trying to push a guy to do anything.
But I thought women wanted to save men. You know, like Superwoman by Li’l Mo. Then again, Superwoman by Karyn White in the 80s contradicts that, encouraging that behavior. Ah well.
I want to save men…and women I’ll stop. lol!
Kema with the new avi.
I see you with that freekum dress on girlfriend. Curves galore.
But they don’t want to be saved.
Indeed! This is the 21st century – all that “me Tarzan, you Jane” crap is oldhat. Besides, I’m having way too much fun being me, thank you very much…
O.
Hell yeah Royale. I feel you on this. I think that the world would be a better place if people were allowed to change on their own. Cuz when your significant other walks out that door the fear of loss sets in like a mug, and it tends to provoke genuine change. Then that person realizes actual consequences of their actions. Also, the relationship is proven because if the person really wants what they lost, they’ll do what they need to keep it.
awwwww!
Well said.
100.
Ooh. Apologies for unintentional wall of text. Cannot edit. o_O
smh. im someone who assumes upon meeting someone theres a time limit on our interaction with one another and during this time, you will not have my best interest at heart or consider whats best for me, you will not value the role i have in your life, and mine will be inevitably worse for having met you. ive always been that way, though, some were flattering and straight forward enough to secure me for a time.
im still that way and i dont necessarily fault men for the way they are. i think. to be what you want in this life and to be dominant and confident in doing so you have to be ‘me’ centric. i also think men carry more weight then they let on. any person who is logic based is solution oriented which means you see problems and aspire to fix them.
you look out for yourself. as you should. but i never learned that vital lesson so i dont want to be the silly girl fawning over you when theres more important things out there to deal with than my feelings. i look at a man for who he is when our lives intersect and i take him for that and that alone. it benefits me to assume who he is at that moment is who hell always be and even though with all my heart i want him to care everything im experiencing sucks for me and im practically whimpering for him to fix it, id much rather just have access to what i need to take care of myself. and that is a bout of conflict. men dont provide first aid.
im not even so sure im capable of relationships with depth, is mutual, and it either hurts really bad or it potentially blows a fuse in my mind for how good it feels and pleasure comes with a suspension of reality and weaker will. i dont bother looking at you before we met because im pretty sure the conclusion would be hes not so bad and i should probably give him a chance but im pretty sure every woman youve ever abandonded told herself the same thing. forgive me if i wanna turn a blind eye to your history but i do agree its good to look at a man for what hes grown into.
personally, my past is…dead weight and id rather let it go. and i wish someone would be selfless enough to focus on what i need to recover, but. its weird. and it hurts. and im tired. and im emotional. truth be told its probably in my best interest to accept someone as they are for who they are. even if i dont matter to him in the end euphoria is probably a natural remedy…
*rolling my eyes*
I am confused.
Women do a lot more compromising than men? You must have observed that during the 2 week hiatus while traveling….outside of the country no doubt. Don’t be selfish. Tell us where this utopia is located. Can I get there with my passport or do I need to travel to a parallel dimension like in Star Trek (Transporter accident or the Nexus)? Women (and increasingly men) compromise only at the last minute and only after a lot of kicking and screaming. And even then the process is still one big f#%& you that you’re going to pay for? Basically, I’m saying women are like Republicans when it comes to compromise.
Men are more like Democrats. They are willing to offer up more concessions up front to keep the peace, but they tend to be token and temporary. Neither is a good position. Don’t believe me that women are the republicans of compromise? Pick any post here and read the comments. Look for a disagreement between a man and a woman. Oh yes, those VSS’s are mos def the conservative republicans of compromise. 
ROTFLMAO Ain’t THAT the truth!
I wish I could like this comment…
LOL, dang
hehehe it’s funny cuz it’s True.
If by conservative republican you mean “If you don’t agree with me or give me what I want emotionally, then f*** you and the horse you rode in on” then, yes, call me a republican of romance.
And, in light of your proclamation, I simply must ask:
How’s that workin’ out for ya? If the GOP’s electoral track record of late is any indication, I suspect the answer is not very good.
Game Grandmaster RooshV had it right when he advised the ladies to:
1. Spend all their free time working to improve their appearance, and
2. Lower their standards
Sound, practical advice, indeed!
Now, that’s change you can believe in…
O.
this comment is packing the force and holding an apple colored light saber.
“Women do a lot more compromising than men? ”
Yes they do. The difference is men tend to compromise when a woman brings something to his attention while women tend to compromise in ways that were never requested and most men never even notice. This is why most men dont recognize the compromises a woman makes.
I can see that.
Yoda pretty much covered it all, no need for me to say sh*t.
Kema, self-imposed compromise sounds like a terrible and possibly unnecesary strategy based on assumptions…y not just be real from jump so u find ur natural match? Don’t y’all tell us to “just be yourself?”
yes ! this is the kinda thinking that has made me lose my ishh. i am so over creating situations that try to disguise my lack of strategic thinking and poor communications skills.
GURL… I am so glad you said this because I was about to read him his rights, lock him in a cell and throw away that key! Umph. These men. I really have to stop and think how simple these creatures think! ARGH… they gonna make me start male bashing all over and break my New Year’s resolution.
GIRL tell them.
Women within relationships STILL do the lions share of the housework, whether both parties are working or not (http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/01/working-women-too-tired-to-fight-about-chores.html?mid=twitter_nymag). Women STILL spend the lions share of their discretionary income on the house and their children. Women are the biggest consumers of the self-help/relationship market. Women, like the one described in the blog, stay even IF their man does not “compromise”, whereas men vote with their feet. Women take more career L’s for family and relationships. Shoot, women still get beat more then men! Don’t think because you have to watch a few reality shows and put some flowers on your window that you are doing the lion’s share of the compromising.
And furthermore, you are missing out on the biggest point- honestly women do more compromising BEFORE relationships. How many times have you changed your hair, style of dress, put on some heels that hurt your feet, bought a pair of spanx, cooked for a man or slept with a man before you were comfortable, DIDN’T sleep with a man because you didn’t want to be viewed as a slut, went on a diet, or followed some other stupid rule all because some silly “relationship expert” told you you’d be #ForeverAlone until you did? When you think about it, I don’t know HOW men get with women thinking they won’t change- you better go on a “sweats-only” date before you purchase! I’m tired just writing about it!
much of what you just listed are choices that you choose to make (minus the azz whoopins of course…well even with that you chose to be with capt’n crazy, or stay with him after that 1st hands on exp) but i digress…who is giving ya’ll the ultimatums to make these compromises?
Oh, and men’s compromise is forced? I’ll wait.
i agree with you. just take the clothes/ shoe thing. i’ve been told by enough women to fill a binder that women do not dress for men.
we do. and we dont. at the same time.
.
okay, i speak for me. but i want it both ways, i only want it to apply to the man of my choosing. or the one in my head who is never gonna see it anyway. or no one that day, until a hot guy passes me on the street and i’m so happy i’m wearing my hair down. or some other nonsense. but never would i do any of it unless it made me feel good about myself.
@Ms. Kema:
“Women do a lot more compromising than men? â€
Yes they do. The difference is men tend to compromise when a woman brings something to his attention while women tend to compromise in ways that were never requested and most men never even notice. This is why most men dont recognize the compromises a woman makes.”
O: This does not comport with evolutionary logic – which holds, that the sex which invests more in the act of procreation, is the sex that is LEAST compromising. In mammals – which includes us human beings – that means, that it is the female who is the LEAST compromising, and in fact, the male, who is the most.
So, Black Yoda is actually correct. Please review your David Buss, “The Evolution of Desire”? I see you’re in a need of a refresher.
Oh, and while I got you here, you may wish to review, for your edification:
The Cleopatra Defense
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/111116
O.
From an evolutionary standpoint there is no reason why anyone would want to have Flava Flav’s kid. He is small, sickly, and weird.
Evo-psych is a bunch of malarkey.
i dunno. Flav was down with PE. that makes me think there’s more to him than strikes the eye. but i’m not reaaally tryinn to find out (smile)
I get this post 100%. I just want to know why guys have a problem with me telling them that I will roll out if my peace on mind or my respect is compromised. I had a guy tell me the other day that I run from situations. But thats not what it is. I can tell if things are headed towards a dead end so I break out before that. Anyway, he got the impression that I dont try to work things out in relationships and that might be why some women stay. They dont want it to seem like they arent trying to do their part. I just feel like a guy has to give me a reason to stay and do my part.
“I had a guy tell me the other day that I run from situations.”
— Technically, he is correct, but that language was chosen to put you on the defensive. What you are doing is smart. Don’t let disingenuous semantical arguments steer you away from smart choices.
+1
I agree 100% with jumping ship when you see the boat is chock full o’ holes. #aintnobodygottimeforthat! I too have been accused of running from problems and just bailing. But then again, I DO have a tendency to jump the gun about situations…idk. I just dont see the point in hanging around when i know what I want and when I know you wont change. =/
Yeah Sweet GA Brown you’re makin the right decision. Nothing wrong with walking away from a situation that’a not gonna work 4 u. Your time is arguably your most valuable resource.
First of all, you’re dead wrong about the compromise part. I think the thing you’re missing is timing. Women compromise to CONTINUE the relationship, while men compromise to START the relationship. For most men, settling down and committing period is a compromise to their freedom, especially if it is to someone who doesn’t fit their 45 point list they keep in their head. (Yes, women, men are as guilty of listmania as you are.) Then again, unless you’re in the top 1% of dudes, maintaining strict adherence to the list will have you checking out some of the ouevre of Cherokee D’A$$ with hand lotion close by, if you get my drift.
-
Women, on the other hand, will date a dude hoping he’ll finally manage to check off those last 5 parts on their list until they compromise and give up the Ghost on that last 5 parts. Ironically, men and women who are able to compromise end up way more marriageable that people who don’t.
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Back to the whole compromise and women thing, I think women do it for 2 reasons. One is just a fear of admitting that, yes, they chose the wrong dude to mess with. To be fair, I think it’s a minor issue with women, but it definitely happens. The other one has to do with what I think is a low-key egotistical move: that somehow your nani, your skill in reheating food from Whole Foods and general presence in stylish clothes he only notices while trying to get them off of you will somehow encourage a man to somehow Become The Man He Was Always Meant To Be ™.
-
Ummmmm…no. Just no.
-
We all talk about the Captain Save-a-Ho tendencies in dudes. While it’s bad on its own merits, we also clown dudes like that because caring for someone is generally considered feminine behavior. Women do the Captain Save-a-Pimp BS all the time, and it’s generally cosigned because it fits into what society believes women are “supposed” to do. Yes, a woman is supposed to care for her man (and a man for her woman), but there’s a point where the care isn’t about the man but somehow burnishing their own ego. It’s a form of narcissism in that instead of the woman making herself look perfect, she gets credit for making someone else perfect, thus making her a Saint in other people’s eyes.
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The only way to deal with that is to figure out why you want to look like a Saint in the first place. And that’s the first step in solving the problem.
I don’t understand why y’all think women have a problem admitting they chose the wrong guy. there are whole sections of the music store devoted to this concept. whole albums even.
I don’t think the “save-a-p!mp” (I do not care for this phrase) mentality has as much to do with looking like a Saint but more to do with being special; being that special one of all the women who locked that notorious ladies man down. Does the guy who locks down the lady-about-town desire for that same regard?
I don’t even understand the need to frame the experience that way. Admit you chose wrong? Why is blame necessary? It didn’t work out. Simple. End of story. No need for a whole lot of unnecessary emotional shenanigans. #aintnobodygottimeforthat.
Agreed. You didn’t choose wrong. That person came into your life for a reason. For whatever that reason, when it’s over it’s over. It’s just no longer a good fit. Release the guilt. Life is too short.
yes ! and also, it feels good to figure out the reason cause it teaches you real ishh about yourself.
Regarding that last phenomenon, oh hells yeah. That’s what get some guys’ motor running. Odd…
I think that women can and do often admit when they have chosen “wrong.” The distinction, however, is that it’s often about the guy being the “wrong” type of guy-not necessarily the recognition of our role/responsibility in choosing him. I think this may have been Todd’s point. I could be wrong, though….
I think that women can and do often admit when they have chosen “wrong.” The distinction, however, is that it’s often about the guy being the “wrong” type of guy-not necessarily the recognition of our role/responsibility in choosing him. I think this may have been Todd’s point. I could be wrong, though….
As most women do, she doesn’t get it.
She’s not getting everything she wants but she is getting what she needs and that’s why she’s there. Like too many women in relationships, she’s using love to evade self-reflection and acceptance of the fact that she’s not the diva that she thought she was. Divas always think that if they’re not happy, a relationship is going to fall apart, but a relationship based on fulfilling all a woman wants, is a never-ending job that will lead to self-destruction.
A woman’s wants tend to be a smokescreen to prevent dudes from figuring out what she needs: some women are like bears and need an aggressive and fearless hunter to bash them down; some women are like deers and need some smooth hunter to gently approach them and seduce them with some grass to eat; whereas there are other women who are like bunnies, and can only respond to gentle hands and a loving tone. The woman PJs talking about is getting what she needs, but not what she wants, which is everything.
“smooth hunter to gently approach them and seduce them with some grass to eat…”
This made me LOL for some reason. I’m not sure if fulfilling a woman’s wants is a never-ending job though. It sounds like you’re saying a woman can never be content.
It sounds like you’re saying a woman can never be content.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! *falling confetti*
Umm not necessarily.
I’m talking “wants” vs. “needs.” In relationships, what a woman needs is consistent, whereas what she wants is always evolving. When women get enough of a “want”, they get bored and want a “new want.” A need never changes and always remains, no matter how unhappy or discontent a woman is in a relationship.
Exactly! The wants r a task that never ends. We tend to just say f*ck it an assume she finds complaining therapeutic, even when that ain’t the case
“she’s using love”-What love exactly?! Which love is this that is not being reciprocated?! Ah ah…..I think the use of love in this article is misplaced. Love is not confounding as I know it. She is giving her all, and getting zero returns, seven months later. Something ain’t right! Since when did women start acting like Jesus, loving even in the face of persecution? Kick him to the curb, find you another fish. Oga this love is not real, it is very much imagined.
Well, first, I don’t know what “giving her all” means? You’re going to have to be more specific. Second, that phrase wasn’t used by PJ to describe the lady, whereas the word “love” towards the guy was. Thirdly, love doesn’t equal reciprocation.
In fact, at the start of a relationship love is unequal, because the guy is the one chasing and trying to earn a woman’s love, whereas the woman is qualifying the guy to see if he’s worth giving her love to, but she’s not earning his love, she’s hoping for his love in return. Men don’t chase women out of love, they chase women out of lust, and overtime that lust becomes love, if the woman grows on the guy or she actively goes out of a way to earn his love, just like he did hers i.e. being charming, likeable, funny, respecting space and boundaries, not making demands etc.
The truth is that, the lady here is hoping that this guy will reciprocate the love she has for him, and is also hoping that the fear of losing her, will make the guy give her the love that she desires. In other words, she is willing to do everything but be charming, likeable, funny, respect space and boundaries, not make demands etc to get the love she wants from him. And yet, the problem is the dude?
Yes, I do know the word love was not used by Jammy Jams, it was used by the girl
Personally, I think her use of the word love is missplaced, infatuation is what it is.
Probably giving her all was not the right phrase to use, but all I’m saying is that it seems as if she is putting in more effort as opposed to dude, AND she has expectations that the same would be returned in kind. 7 months later….chick is still waiting. Granted that we haven’t heard the dude’s side of the story, to make a complete and fair assessment, as per the story’s description of him, he sounds like a douchebag, and she desperate for his affection. Oga be easy with me oo…..
Let me ask you a real question: what do you think love is?
Wasn’t there a whole post about how awoman cannot grow on a guy? SMH.
Ya’ll are going to hell in in a gas can with your flip flopping mentalities.
Mitt Romney of relationship advice. We will say whatever leads to the conclusion that women.are dumb. If we contradict ourselves, we get instant amnesia.
This is true. I doubt a woman will grow on a guy. I cosign your thought there.
Which post was that?
that was a sentiment expressed in a previous post, i’m one of the dudes that expressed it and it is my truth…women don’t grow on me….but feelings can become stronger over time..
but there are no absolutes..
So you never had a girl who you were just having sex with, who later became your girlfriend?
“Nothing that he’s doing or has done has indicated to her that anything would be any different. ”
YES. Don’t get me to testifying in here…
I’ve given this speech too many times- What is different now? He apologized, y’all “made up”, things are good right now but what *action* is he taking to prove he will do better? (Yes, these conversations have always occurred with women.)
“Once you realize that what somebody has always done is likely to be what they will always do short of some life-altering realizations, you learn that the ball is in your own court.”
The hard part is that it’s hard to have that realization without the experience of being let down (or not let down, when he/she “does right”). Pattern means it has to happen more that once right?
I think this is one area of life where patience is not a virtue. I will never advise any friend to wait a dude out. Let him figure that sh*t out on his own. If he wants you, he’ll most definitely be back when he has his mind right. Sure wish somebody had told me that, LOL
I remember I told an ex “an apology isn’t an action”. Technically it is but I still hit her with a checkmate.
Actions speak louder than words. Leave him. You love him? Sounds more like infatuation. Some of these men just need to be left the hell alone to sort themselves out! You cannot sort him out for your benefit. He is unsortable. Sounds like this idjot I know. MSCHEW! Great post. Have a lovely day ma pippoz!
Juicy Mango, ladies and gentlemen.
My boy has the ugliest shooting form I ever seen, it’s like everytime he shoots I expect the ball to just fly backwards, yet leave him alone anywhere on the court he’s money. He’s not missing shots, he’s not going to the NBA so no matter how much we mock he has no incentive to ever change. I believe the phrase is if it ain’t broke… that’s essentially what happens in this post and countless other relationships, what one is doing is working so why change?
Then there’s the other party who does a poor showing of unhappiness.(ie staying with him, complaining but never doing ish) and wait for some random epiphany. I’m sure a Vss (Word to black Yoda upthread) will say doing what we’re allowed is a copout but if the ninja is riding around for months with a check engine light on, why do u expect him to fix a running relationship
“but if the ninja is riding around for months with a check engine light on,”
— LOL. Word.
Only idiots run their car that long with the check engine light on; so long as you’re cool copping to the ‘idiot’ label …then all is good.
Seven months? Really? And she’s not trying to roll, bounce, rock, skate away? She’s setting herself up for disappointment and frustration. And no matter how hard she tries, she’ll take it out on him in little ways. She has to decide if she wants to be disappointed forever. There will be times when she thinks, “This would have been a perfect time for him to do ___.”
i used to focus on the guy’s shortcomings as a means to avoid my own because i didnt have the courage or the humility to do the work on myself. and lest i think i was without flaw the most glaring one of all was that i chose to be with a man who “needed work” like that was my problem !? ain’t nothing like a dead end to ensure progress won’t come. that i could sit up on my high horse and talk about the man i loved like that, well, that was just me blowing up my own spot.
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now, as i figure it, thing is not only do i have to do better for myself (take care of my wants and needs without expectation that someone else is “supposed to” do for me if i do for them cause love does not tally up receipts nor does it expect a return) but i also gotta choose men who are not fatally flawed #myfavoritekindohhwell
This is key. Some people need to date scapegoats to hide from their own ish. They don’t really want him/her to do right because then they’d have to look at themselves.
“i used to focus on the guy’s shortcomings as a means to avoid my own because i didnt have the courage or the humility to do the work on myself.”
brilliant and mature, as usual.
it took the first two decades of my life to get here but i am now certain this is key to any lasting relationship.
Game…blouses. Translation Esa wins…flawless victory
Women (including myself) tend to fall for the idea of a person rather than the person themselves. We create this prototype in our mind…this handsome, chivalrous, providing mandingo warrior….and that ultimately sets the man up for failure…even when hes at his best, hes not the HIM we think we’re dating, and things go downhill from there….
Hell, even when dating women I do the same thing….so its not a qualm reserved only for men….I just think some women are hard-wired to project fantasy onto reality.
Its not even that your partner is doing something wrong all of the time….its that you want them to love you, the way you would love you, if you were them….
I’ve had plenty ppl call me out on that, telling me I should just date myself lol….Its a growing process to just accept someone as they are or keep it moving…I’m working on it dammit!!
……….as opposed to finding someone who can love you the best way that THEY can love you and that being all you need? Because it may just be possible that you are not loving the guy the way he would love himself, but that the whats and hows you are doing it are just fine with him.
Ah, the Man in the Head syndrome. You’re right about men doing that too, but few men can do that without either the relationship blowing up in their face or something dramatic happening.
People enter relationships already having an idea of how/who the person they are with is. I understan people can put up a front but even that only lasts but so long, so if you alreay know how he/she is, why continue to be with the person if you don’t like who they are in the beginning stages? The “hope” of change shouldn’t blind people.
Women don’t compromise as much as they retroactively amend their reasoning.
Exactly Meech. They ain’t slick. Lol
I think the problem is what people–in this case, women–expect from relationships. We put all sorts of unhealthy and restrictive expectations on our significant others that we don’t put on the people in our non-romantic relationships. We can love our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, family, friends etc. and genuinely enjoy their company, but still acknowledge and accept their faults and that they’re unlikely to change.
Why is it so hard to do in our romantic relationships? 2 reasons. 1st-People–i.e. women–have been sold a bill of lies. With the whole fairy tale, marry for love, find your soul mate b.s. that’s been shoved down our throats since we were children, we believed that our significant other should be our all-in-all. They should be the best of all our relationships wrapped up into one. They should be our defender, lover, family, protector, counselor, best friend, source of gossip, entertainment, punching bag, happy and willing servant, constant reminder of our beauty/value/worth, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the blood flowing through our veins. <——-See? That right there is absolute foolishness. And crazy, its also very very crazy. A bunch of crazy people got together and emotionally vomited onto a piece of paper…and voila, the fairy tales were born. One flesh-and-blood human being is never gonna be your everything. Only God can be that.
2nd–Most people have these character flaws. And if you get super offended by this, you're probably one of them. Being narcissistic, selfish, dismissive of your SO's emotions/feelings/perspective, entitled, unkind, unfair, inconsistent with your wants/desires, unwilling/unable to take responsibility for your own happiness/faults, immature, and unwilling to compromise makes it extremely difficult for anyone to be satisfied in a relationship. If you're the type that thinks your feelings are the end all be all of everyone's existence, odds are you're very difficult to be around. And impossible to be in a romantic relationship with.
If you combine these character flaws with the teachings of the soul mate propaganda, you've got a walking, fire-breathing train wreck on your hands.
Yeeepp. This about sums it up. Shut tha game down with this comment…Nice.
narcissism is very hard to treat and transcend. your ideas have me considering the reason soulmate propaganda is so powerful is that it appeals to the disordered mind. a lie can only take hold in fallow land.
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most people do not overcome personality disorders (i believe because the therapeutic model is intrinsically problematic, as are a great many of its practitioners). thus, without a means to resolve their conflicts, they constantly recreate them by finding and keeping company with people who possess complementary pathologies.
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i believe the unconscious mind forces the train off the tracks as a means to show us where we (and not the other person) have gone wrong. problem is, narcissists (usually) can’t handle the truth about themselves.
@ esa
“A lie can only take hold in fallow land.”
So true. The only way to destroy a lie is with truth. The only way out of darkness is to find the light. I think narcissism can be treated, but the narcissist has to acknowledge their faults. There can be no positive progress until one is exposed to Truth. Getting a narcissist to accept the fact that they have a problem that is *their* fault is the first step.
“Most people do not overcome personality disorders.”
They don’t overcome them because they’re never exposed to the truth–that they are their own worst enemy. I agree with you about the therapeutic models and its practitioners. But I also feel like we live in a society that’s being bludgeoned to death by political correctness. You can’t tell someone something–that is true and will probably help them–without risking invoking their outrage and indignation. People focus so much on their feelings, at the expense of truth and justice. If people are never made aware that they have a problem, how are they to heal? To get better?
“I believe the unconscious mind forces the train off the tracks as a means of showing where we (and not the other person) have gone wrong.”
Hmmm. Interesting perspective. However, I feel that chaos is chaos. Destruction is destruction. It can never be a force of good. It can never build anything; it only destroys. A person’s *response* to chaos and destruction can determine whether or not any healing will occur. But the chaos itself…pure evil. One needs to sit down and reflect on their life…and wait for the light bulb that turns on saying, “Look how far off the reservation you are.”
There is nothing special about narcissism. Its the same as any other character flaw: designed to destroy the self. If people can humble themselves enough to accept truth, they’ve already won half the battle.
Oh yes! AminuKweku is officially the professor in this auditorium lol. I think u may have pinpointed my entire perspective with that one. Lovers r held to an unreasonably high standard a lot of times. And the culprit is “expectations” fed to us by the never ending stream of media we’ve grown up with and are still addicted to.
all very insightful. thank you ~*~
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in my experience, duality is an illusion. destruction cannot exist without creation, and vice versa. it is unpleasant and painful, but the narcissistic personality type ~loves~ to suffer. martyr syndrome is an outgrowth of it.
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that’s what it’s difficult for the narcissist to accept that they are the cause of their problem. they know it, then repress it, so they can .. suffer ! suffering is avoidance. and narcissists are cowards. so they go the easy route of woe-is-me because the truth IT-IS-ME is just too intimidating.
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they aren’t well equipped to handle rebuilding because they never learned how. narcissism is a situationally-acquired personality disorder that, from what i have seen, is passed down by parents to their children. these kinds of pathologies are learned early in life when a child’s brain is so fragile you can literally rewire it with strong punishment and reward style conditioning.
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ie: blehh. that’s why narcissists are such turn offs. and they dont even know it. and if they get wind of it, they’re outrageously defended.
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i agree with you about how people place their feelings before the truth and the greater good. narcissists live for themselves. Me Me Me Me Me like that old opera song.
Ah, personality disorders, something I deal with in my life and in my support group. I wouldn’t go for far as to say more, at least for borderline personality disorder, if only because the literature pegs the odds at roughly 50/50 in getting over them. You do have a point about recreating conflicts, though, and I spend a lot of mental energy turning down supporting roles in the various dramas from my wife and mother. I need to do better.
personality disorders are all consuming. they suck all the air out of the room. i see this in me and it is messy. but, as i finally told myself last night, “enough about me” — i swear it was the first time i eva meant it. i cant sustain it or anything but it makes me laugh instead cringe so i guess thas progress ~*~
Oh man I want this entire comment on a tee shirt…
Hmmm… interesting assessment. I’ll add my two cents: From your 1st statement I definitely think that the definition of soulmate has been largely misconstrued. You have can have MANY soulmates in a lifetime — their purpose is to come into your life to teach you lesson and even then, it’s a little more complicated than that.
When you start looking at the metaphysical side of relationship, it gives you a completely different perspective. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
@GoldenFro
“You have can have MANY soulmates in a lifetime — their purpose is to come into your life to teach you lesson and even then, it’s a little more complicated than that.”
How can a person have many soul mates? Isn’t the whole concept of a soul mate that there is one person who complements you perfectly? Maybe its just me, but I thought the definition of a soul mate was a person’s *other half*. The whole idea of a soul mate is predicated on the notion that people are unique individuals–souls. And that there is one particular person/soul that is exactly right for them. How can there be many halves to one particular person? That’s what I hear when I think of soul mates.
I agree with you that a person can have many *lovers*–that there are several people out there who could make a great fit for a particular person. There are many out there who are meant to enter our lives temporarily. That is not the definition of soul mate, at least not to me. But the odds of finding the one person who’s perfect for you in this giant world is pretty slim. So I don’t give it much thought. Instead, I focus on attraction, compatibility, chemistry, similar interests/life goals etc.
Do I believe that people can be romantically happy with someone other than their soul mate? Absolutely. I don’t believe a soul mate is limited to a lover. A person’s soul mate can be their mother, best friend, cousin…anyone.
That was kinda my point in my original post–that there’s almost no point in looking for the perfect person/soul mate. Even if they exist, the odds of finding them are slim to none. It is more prudent to focus on real, practical things.
On another note, I’ve been trying to figure out what this means—–> ¯_(ツ)_/¯. Could you tell me? lol
i somewhat agree. mostly because its easy to transcend circumstance and environmental issues when you envision a fairytale with the equal to your very soul. it gives you hope and keeps you on a good path and is a pleasant focus. but ive also been outright shocked some people actually are eerily similar to something thought to be fully imagined. so, i think thats when compatibility and practicality come in. someone close enough who is practical for me. someone who is just a lover though, lust and passion? im good on that.
“Why is it so hard to do in our romantic relationships?”
— Excellent post. Familial love is possible because you cannot choose your blood relatives. However, romantic love is bogged own with expectations of perfection because you do choose a mate. Arranged marriage could fix this, theoretically…just sayin.
As can asexual reproduction. Little gene splicing here and there..
@ Royale W. Cheese
What about platonic relationships–friendships? Although you can’t choose your family, you can choose your friends. People don’t put the same expectations on their friends as they do on their significant others. They’re sensible enough to know that just because you chose to be friends with someone doesn’t mean they’re gonna cater to your every whim and caprice. Its delusion that causes them to think that because you chose someone as a lover, they automatically become your servant.
I agree with you about arranged marriage, by the way. If we spent less time talking about love as a feeling and more time discussing love as an act of will/hard work, marriages might be better off.
Well. You 187ed that comment didn’t you?
Very, very true. Thanks for sharing this.
Propaganda, attacks the very thing that most women view as their greatest strenghts i.e. their feelings. Propaganda works best on people who lack the desire to think critically. That’s why I have a tendency not to blame media for the problems of people in general. Most of our problems are self imposed.
Our very idea of love in this country is propaganda. When my father moved here in the 70′s, during the New Age movement, he told me about how he had never heard the word “love” used so much in his entire life. He told me how love became a relgion; it became sex, music, equality, drugs, the environment etc. Things have only gotten worse since then as far as love is concerned.
@ Negro Libre
“Propaganda works best on people who lack the desire to think critically.”
That’s why such people *need* propaganda, in my opinion. The drones/the weak/the followers of society who aren’t going to think at all need to be told what to do. Otherwise they’ll make choices that people who lack critical thinking skills make–stupid ones. That’s why I do blame the media for *some* of the problems that people have. If the elite of society who control the media know that a significant percentage of people are prone to making stupid decisions, then they should encourage them to make good decisions, not feed them fairy tales. Its irresponsible at best.
“When my father moved here in the 70′s, during the New Age movement, he told me about how he had never heard the word “love†used so much in his entire life. He told me how love became a relgion; it became sex, music, equality, drugs, the environment etc. Things have only gotten worse since then as far as love is concerned.”
I agree. Things are so bad because people stopped using their sense. The only reason people had enough time and energy to wax poetically about “love” is because of how advanced our society has become. They forget that in order to achieve these advancements, frivolous notions like “love” had to be done away with in favor of ones like honor, obligation, duty, responsibility etc. People have just stopped using common sense. I think society has become like a spoiled trust-fund kid. We’re wasting the hard earned wealth of those who came before us on absolute nonsense.
Panama…soooo on point my man! Hope you don’t mind but I borrowed a bit of it and put on Diva’s blog….
Them folks over there are almost always on some warped scale of thinking.
The fantasy matrix is real people- by the time you wake up from it, you’re out here in these streets covered in pookie dust. Life’s too short to be stuck in a dry relationship.
EXACTAMUNDO! Life is indeed too short for this pooky dooky.
Though I tend to use the word evolve in place of change. To me one of the greatest forms of compromise is when a couple overstands that what is being asked of or discussed isn’t a personal attack or a selfish request. But more so wisdom being provided to bring forth equality. When true wisdom is given the only way one benefits from it is solely by being with the person once it is applied to self and in turn manifested. One love
Let me just sliiiddde on in here and answer your question that YES, women are constantly going under self improvement. Or at least, I am. (I’m generalizing here and correct me if I’m wrong but) women seem to learn more from their relationships, or at least they find a meaning in how a realtionship turned out that directly correlates to some other shizz going on in thier life. As a result, as opposed to men, they’ll be more likely to be up in arms about this new self discovery and will want to change it (because, you know, we always trynna “do better”).
Self improvement for women is a means of attempting to perfect our craft as VSS, to find a better way to weed out losers and of course, to stop doin the dumb shizz that has scr*ewed us over in the past.
we like to evolve and shizz
There is a point you realize that two people are not a good fit and in those situations it is best that you let the person go. If there is no incentive, no come to Jesus moment on how you both can work on something together then yes, past behavior will continue to show itself.
However there are times when certain people are stuck in patterns in every relationship they are in that lead to nowhere fast yet at the right time, awareness and with the right person, they can make a change. In those situations, the past can caution you and your significant other, but you cant be driven or bound by it. Like you said, if its a really fucked up situation like cheating, abuse, then yes let that nigga/chick go. But sometimes, you gotta know that people change when they want to. You will know when they want to because they acknowledge,articulate this and time and behavior will show. It is in those moments that you become proud of the change they are making for themselves,which will in turn help the relationship. This is not an overnight or cookie cutter process but you definitely will see it together.
Your friend, like you said, has given no incentive for this dude to realize he has to change. If anything is sounds like nagging to him from her. Keep in mind those “why doesnt she/he do this” problems are derived from different issues.
You just gotta know which situation you are in. A rough patch or a bad match?
Though I tend to use the word evolve in place of change. To me one of the greatest forms of compromise is when a couple overstands that what is being asked of or discussed isn’t a personal attack or a selfish request. But more so wisdom being provided to bring forth equality. When true wisdom is given the only way one benefits from it is solely by being with the person once it is applied to self and in turn manifested. One love
yeah, i kind of agree. i dont think its particularly selfish of someone to need an evolution, minor adjustments to make things smoother for them but i am pretty stubborn. and obstinate. i got myself fine tuned to how *i* like me and plus im just conditioned to be a loner. its actually fairly difficult for me to be interpersonal in a sincere man/woman kind of way beyond my beliefs.
actually experiencing coupling im becoming cognizant its actually synching. and personal. and it affects someones experience so i should at least be a little less stiff. but its kind of uncomfortable to adjust to someone knowing their intention is to secure dominion over you. i dont mean to be a little kid about it but i mean, at least make my vitamins look like gummy bears…
and i dont think its selfish to make adjustments unless you intentionally cause me suffering or youre aware what youre doing makes my experience dreadful and youre willing to harm me in your self service. which is why im obstinate. im wondering if our mutual experience is also in my best interest. i think the whole ‘look at who hes grown into’ approach makes it way easier to comprehend the necessity of hearing what someones showing you. balances the relationship and all.
I’ve seen a woman’s love change a man for the better. I don’t know where you people have been. Love, faith and perseverence is dumb? Not in my world. I don’t care what people say. I’ve loved a few until they improved. Its karma points in my immortality basket even if I’m not with them. My baby boo changed me and I changed him.. so there. *sticks out tongue at thread*
I am betting he changed because he wanted to change, and not because of what the woman did. Maybe she offered some options he had not considered, or maybe she made a safe haven for him to consider altering his journey, but he could have just as easily remained where he was, because as always, the choice is his.
Of course he wanted to, but his exposure to her was a catalyst.
You are probably right, after he got with her. Apparently not before, or he would have already “changed”. But even with a catalyst, if you remove one element from the reaction, the reaction stops. He had the power to not move forward, if he chooses.
For me, my partner can present options that she considers would improve my life and journey (note, not improve me and that she may actually be wrong) but I have to know that she is choosing to be with me for what I am, today, and accept that if I do not take her options, she will still be with me anyway.
One of your best posts, so far. I just wish folks would take this to heart because what you said is so true. A gold star for you.
Well, so long as there is a persistent double standard you bestie will be in this situation.
Her underlying premise in life is probably that, for a woman, being in a relationship is winning and that “being single” is losing. Thus, no matter what hardships you face in the relationship… it’s better than “losing.”
She won’t be able to roll bounce until she internalizes that maybe she can be happier by herself temporarily… and that that happiness might attract herself a better man. Or not, and that is ok too.
I think men do the same thing too. It’s just that men tend to get more encouragement to bounce compared to women.
The mythology men create about themselves is so much bullshiddgety.
One day we will be having a convo on these here updated and shiny new comments…
And all the men will bellow how Man Invented the Lightbulb for a woman’s love. Man created pyramids and fought wars. Man otherwise would happily be a Cave Dwelling but not for a woman’s love.
Then the next day….
Men won’t change for a woman. Why should he pick up his socks, pick the kids up from soccer every other day, call if he is coming home late? You can’t get a man to do anything for love of a woman. Ain’t his existence enough?
BULLSHIDDEGETY!!!!!!
“And all the men will bellow how Man Invented the Lightbulb for a woman’s love. Man created pyramids and fought wars. Man otherwise would happily be a Cave Dwelling but not for a woman’s love.”
You forgot the wheel and the internet too.
No, don’t worry about it. Thank us later.
Men also told the first lie… AKA religion. So… nope. No thanks from me.
ingrate….
And I thought bullcrappery was the word. Bullshiddegety….love it!
I’m pretty sure a woman wrote that tampon commercial. But she understood the diffence between the love of a woman and a “woman’s love” as a collective. Hail to the V.
I see folks are still on vacation?! The site looks great btw. LOVE the font change and the yellow!
The best pieces of advice I’ve been given on this subject are:
1. A person will tell you who they are; All you have to do is listen.
2. Don’t try to change your partner.
I think you’re absolutely spot on in your assertion that a lot of women stay with a man hoping that he will one day change either for her sake or because of some sudden epiphany. And it makes me sad that so many women fall victim to what they see in movies.
A person will tell you who they are; all you have to do is listen. And when s/he tells you – BELIEVE THEM. If you don’t like what that person is about, don’t try to change them. My mom always says, “a fuerza los zapatos no entran.” Trans: Shoes don’t fit by force. Time to find another shoe that can at stretch with your shoe as you wear it.
****stretch with your foot* as you wear it.
Well, I see the gang’s all here. Happy New Year, everyone!
I love what Liz’s done with the place – very…feminine. Looking forward to great convos in the coming year. As per usual, the Mission for the O-Man continues: to arm my Brothas with the tools of the Art of Love and the SCIENCE of Seduction to aid them in their romantic/sexual desires, whatever they may be.
And with that said, and given that I see the good folks here at VSB have weighed in to some extent on the matter already, here’s yours truly’s take on yesterday’s topic:
All My Babies’ Mamas: The Sum Of All The Sistarati’s Fears
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/114831
Continue…
O.
She should have thrown a fork. My ex would leave dirty forks on the kitchen counter and I said the next time you do that, I’m going to throw the fork at your head. He did it again so I threw it.
Worked like gangbusters!