Between ESPN’s “Content of Character” Town Hall panel at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Henry Abbott’s “The NBA race conversation,” and Bob Kravitz’s “On this special day, we search for perspective,” I spent much of MLK day (and the weekend preceding it) reading and watching different examples of people involved with athletics attempt to tackle the race monkey.¹
Predictably, the most interesting aspect of each of these conversations came in the responses they generated. For those who aren’t used to seeing race issues discussed in predominately white (well-intentioned, but still white nonetheless) settings—and yes, although the Town Hall meeting took place in front of a mostly black audience, there’s no doubt that the majority of the people who actually watched on TV were non-black—you usually have a few intelligent responses sprinkled in with a cacophony of idiocy.²
But, while this idiocy comes in many forms-–guilt-ridden acknowledgment of race issues (“I hate being a white person.”) and back-handed acknowledgment of race issues (“I know my ancestors did some messed up things, but when are we going to get past it?”) are a couple of my personal favorites—two trains of thought in particular are extremely troublesome:
Willful ignorance and stupidity (“This is some bullsh*t. Me and none of my friends see race. It wouldn’t even be an issue if you didn’t keep talking about it.“) and Willfully dangerous ignorance and stupidity (“This is some bullsh*t. Me and none of my friends see race. The real racists are people like Kanye West and Michelle Obama.“)
What annoys me so much about these types of responses is the fact that they’re caused by an unwillingness to discuss difficult questions in mixed company; a head in the sand-ness in regards to race that continues to disturb, anger, and sadden me…at least until I remember that we do it too.
You see this—black people refusing to discuss certain race-related issues—on blogs pretty much every day of the week. For instance, someone will write something up about how a very large percentage of popular—and underground, too. Don’t get it twisted—rap music, for lack of a better term, sh*ts on black women, and the conversation will quickly devolve into “Well, white people do it too! Ever listen to Johnny Cash? He’s been murdering bitches on wax since 1940!”
It’s understandable why this happens, though. Even if they’re asked without personal indictment intent, people tend to take these types of questions personally, and when questions are taken personally, people become defensive or willfully ignorant.
Knowing why many of us refuse to acknowledge certain tough questions helps me understand why some white people do the exact same thing. Still, we can’t ask them to be open-minded, intellectually curious, and self-critical if we—all of us, not just “some” or even “most”—aren’t willing to do the same thing, and here are a couple questions I think we need to be more willing to answer or at least discuss.
1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?
2. Why are African-American women the only women on the planet where a good many of them (not all, of course. but enough to matter) expect men to be attracted to certain personality traits that are the complete antithesis of what most men are attracted to?³
3. Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?
4. Our history in this country has given us a bit of a “they’ve been oppressed, so it’s ok for them to do and say openly racist sh*t” pass. And, we’re not particularly shy about using it, even in jest (myself included). Anyway, we especially know how hurtful racially-charged insults and comments can be, but we continue to do it. Why? (Also, would you rather continue to have the “pass” or complete equality? Think about it a bit before you respond, though. When you think about the creative and communicative freedom the pass gives us, the answer isn’t so easy.)
5. Through our words and actions, both black men and black women promote and take pride in the idea that black men are typically virile and extremely hyperheterosexual. Why haven’t we realized that the acceptance and promotion of this perception has many, many, many more negative effects than positive?
Anyway, these are just a few questions off the top of my head. Does anyone have any answers? Or, better yet, does any one of any more uncomfortable questions we need to ask ourselves?
The carpet is yours.
¹Why I did choose to watch and read these sports-related takes on race instead of, I don’t know, CNN’s or Salon.com’s or something? One reason: The sports world forces people to encounter certain unique racial situations and dynamics that no other part of society really has to consider, and I deeply value the race-related thoughts and feelings of those involved with sports—players, fans, management, and most importantly, media.
²I’m not saying that most white people are unable to have thoughtful discussions about race, just the ones who usually feel compelled to comment in these types of venues. Big distinction.
³ To expound, the personality traits I’m referring to come in the form of taking pride in being a “handful,” giving 1001 reasons why smiling in public is bad, etc. Again, all black women don’t act this way. In fact, most don’t, but enough to make a difference. And, while I’m sure most of the women reading this can name strange entitlements many brothas have as well, what separates the two is that the brothas with ridiculous entitlements usually don’t expect women to actually be attracted to and admire the ridiculousness.
—The Champ
#1 leaves me saddingly speechless.
Me too. I am sitting here wondering about the evolution of that, like what was the first song? Who was the first artist…to take it there? Why did that theme resonate with our community like it did in the beginning? It’s like I’m clamoring to reach this thought: IF we can find the start, could we find the end?
The finding the start is pretty easy. The success of N.W.A.’s “Straight Outta Compton” back in 1988 showed the profitability of misogynistic “gangsta rap”. While there were other examples of hardcore at the time (Scholly D., Kool G. Rap, B.D.P.’s first record, and Ice-T) N.W.A. were the first to blow nationally .
I agree. Like when did the word “bitch” become cool? We did that.
I agree. Like when did the word “b*tch” become cool? We did that.
Nope, NWA was not the birth of the bitches and hoes movement. That “honor” belongs to Luther Campbell and the 2 Live Crew. That whole album was an ode to the more vile filth a 10 year old could hear about women…on the radio no less. I remember it vividly and I was banned from listening to it. I had friends who had the tape and as I listened to it, somehow my 10 year old mind comprehended why my parents banned me from listening to it. I didn’t enjoy it, didn’t get it and was offended…at 10.
I’m still the same way about certain artists now. I wish more of us were and they’d get less mainstream exposure, leading the artists and record companies to reconsider the trash they put out.
Straight Outta Compton (1988) predates As Nasty as they Wanna Be (1989).
http://thoughtcatalog.com/2011/chet-haze-tom-hanks-asher-frat-boy-rap-college/
this link is about white frat boy rappers that feel like they own hiphop because they grew up while HipHop was a major influence. They acknolwedge the blackness of the art form but refuse to see it as exclusive.
I do not blame them but I also do not endorse them. Its just how I feel, I won’t be trying to relate to them by listening to their music. #TurnsKanyeWest’sMBDTFup
2 Live Crew actually debuted in 1986, and that album was very raunchy, which many others tried to copy, except NWA was more street and less club as 2LC.
“It’s like I’m clamoring to reach this thought: IF we can find the start, could we find the end?”
so basically widespread misogyny in hiphop is exactly like a rainbow?
“so basically widespread misogyny in hiphop is exactly like a rainbow?”
In more ways than one…
I think the mysoginy (sp?) comes from low self-confidence. Theyre bullies. U know, put others down to raise urself up.
They feel insecure in this crazy world, so they exert their power by verbal and physical violence against women and other “feminine” characters, like gay men.
Theyre self-worth is so tied up in being a “man” rather than stuff like creativity and intelligence.
And it sucks for black women, bc to overcome it, we cant take part in it. How can u be supportive of someone who looks down on u? Maybe we need to all just go inter-racial marriage and get over it. WHo says black men and women have to end up with each other.
“WHo says black men and women have to end up with each other?”
NOBODY. Certainly NOT Black men. But over and over I hear sistas talking about how they’d never date a white man, how they LOOOOOVE the brothas, etc, etc, etc. Black men, on the other hand, are saying we don’t smile enough. *smh*
Black women better wake up and OPEN UP.
Good question, right? (Jay-Z voice)
I just threw something like that out on Twitter – why do Black people so enthusiastically support such degrading trending topics? It’s appalling
haha I have had the same sentiments and also wondered is there a disproportionate amount of ninjas on twitter cuz we stay with some ratched TT.
There are a disproportionate amount of Blacks on Twitter. We make up something like 25% of twitter, but only 12% of the country…something crazy like that. Still, I think we are all guilty because if we aren’t the ones participating in the crazy, then we are complaining about it (thus contributing to the TT).
Thanx, no I’m closing my twitter account. Because clearly, it is N*gga technology.
Without you, I still wouldn’t know.
yes, I have a bit of hesitation because I’m just getting to like it. But if I’m going to improve anything, I need to start with me.
And yes, I’ll charge you with the ember that sparked the fires of a personal revolution.
Thank you Liz. <3
Hahah! yw!
Because clearly, it is N*gga technology.
Quotes like this promote a similar problem. It seems (and if I’m wrong about you please correct) that we love suggesting that there are “Black people” and “Niggers.” As if we can separate “ourselves” from “those people” the racists are always talking about.
if you’re not a part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
@Perfect Square
You clearly don’t watch the Boondocks and cannot appreciate my lack of proper quotations. Sheez, next time, I’ll make sure that I reference the Show, the author, the character that says it, the moment that the character says it.
OR, you could just not point fingers because no matter what, people don’t respond well to it and rarely if ever is there any progress made.
Now, on the off chance that you are aware of the origin of the quote and still somehow don’t have the sense of humor to take it as a joke, calm down, you ain’t solving nothing with that attitude.
You cannot relate to me like that and I’m hardly on that variety of bullsh**, how will you relate to others?
My point was merely to share that Liz made a significant contribution to my thought process on involvement and growth and that is to say, that being involved in things that don’t contribute to growth is a bad thing.
Now, I could have said I’m done with twitter a bunch of different ways, but this site and the topics we go over are typically done in a humor related way and even when serious, getting a chuckle out of it is almost a necessity. Thus I pursued my comedic effect however lame or unwarranted. Was I wrong, maybe? But geez, coming down hard with criticism on THIS BLOG RIGHT HERE N****, is a bit premature if you are fighting nationwide/worldwide/localwide ignorance.
Thank you for the fuel, I’m getting off my soap box now.
I don’t really watch the Boondocks very often. So I was wrong. I thought I was respectful and even offered a disclaimer just in case. In any case I figured I was speaking in the same spirit that we all do on this blog. My bad…
it’s embarrassing. I sit and watch helpless, wondering what the majority is thinking as they see and read the flood of tweets under the day’s TT.
#flamingyoung
They ignore us. I read the TT reports on the tech blogs and they do al they can to find a reason to ignore TTs started by us. “We are excluding all…black topics….and found once again Justin Beiber ruled the TT this week.”
EXCEPT for The Game…I don’t know WHY that trended and everything related to The Game trended ridiculously when it premiered on BET. I guess Viacom paid MTV money to make it trend ~kanye Shrug~
KMN
They laugh at us because that’s what they expect. They think it’s how we all live. Ever read the comments those racists leave behind on a Yahoo! topic? They often cite Twitter abuse as one of the reasons they feel superior to us.
Hello all! I’m mostly a lurker, and decided to come out and make a comment. And @I Am Your People, I couldn’t agree more. Everytime I get on twitter and see a topic like #IhatewhenH0es, #ihatewhenwomen, #ihatewhenmen or something along those lines, it breaks my heart to read all the rude, disrespectful and nasty comments that follow. And it’s mostly Black people that do it. The same goes for facebook. Out of all my friends (I don’t have a lot, but its enough), only the Black people get on there “going off” on somebody about trivial stuff. Not saying that white people don’t do it, but we do it a lot more.
we are an angry people.
we are an angry people.
For very good reasons.
We have great reasons to be angry. Anger, however tastes like cheap beer and I can stand the aftertaste anymore.
We grow up jonesing on each other. It’s pretty much a way of life – kill or be killed, have thick skin, quit being so sensitive – it’s how we bond. We have a much harder time telling our patna we love them and respect their friendship than saying “ninja you look like a pterodactyl and I smashed ya moms”. Twitter is just playing the dozens with strangers, but there is no love in it.
Yes. This is why I can’t fool with twitter sometimes. I’m not saying I’m deep and don’t laugh at the occassional foolery…but it absolutely baffles me at how much of us spend ALL DAY on twitter, tweeting foolishness.
“but it absolutely baffles me at how much of us spend ALL DAY on twitter, tweeting foolishness.”
this.
I’m pretty sure someone’s gonna get knifed behind an answer to question #2
*Wraps phone books around torso like Omar*
lol, i dont think it’ll be that bad. just in case, though, do you have an extra phone book i can borrow?
@Brandon St. Randy
Props for using the name of the funniest character from Zack & Miri (The deleted scenes with Brandon St. Randy were funnier than most of the film.) and major props for using Dan Halen as your avatar.
Props to you sir for knowing both of those obscure pop culture references
1) I feel like hip-hop disses women in general and not with a targeted attack on black women. Obviously there are references to black women in songs and in the videos but I dont think that the issues/commentary is exclusive to sistahs
2) Clarification please or maybe im one of the few thats lost.
3) Brothas got options, too many options its like going to a big @$$ mall to look for one shirt, your just going to check out all the other stores even if you have a good deal elsewhere and hey you may leave with two with plans on returning one later because you just didnt want someone to pick up the last one of your size before you came back…
*4) I went to a Eddie Griffin standup this weekend and was in a group of mostly blacks but also with a white woman in the group and i realized “Damn ninjas really go in on white people on every single issue” I even felt uncomfortable for Becky(her real name) in the group.
Bingo! Nailed #3 on the head.
The options thing is tricky. On the one hand a lady like myself wants to be seen like a good option. But I don’t want to be too desperate looking. Then I wonder, if I pretend like I don’t need to be chose then I will attract him even more. Needless to say. I am tired of yall and your options.
@Liz. I hope you enjoyed your trip. I hope I am not offending you….I think a lot of black men in general don’t want to admit that they like playing the field like Cam Newton at an SEC championship game. lol. And a lot of black women don’t want to admit that they genuinely enjoyed being played (hence the reason they attract, date, marry habitual players)
hmmmmmm. I think we know men enjoy playing the field lol. But I don’t know if we enjoy getting played. Enjoy is such a strong word lol. Maybe we allow it to happen due to #lowselfofsteam and today’s hip hop music (see #1).
P.S. yes my trip was great! can’t wait to go back!
I think I used the wrong choice of words (probably sleep deprivation). I can’t understand why bw can’t see through the game and see the guy’s true intentions.
They maybe able to see the guys true intentions but choose to ignore it for various reasons like self esteem issues like Liz said or thinking that all men are like that and they don’t deserve to be treated better.
I saw a clip of Kevin Hart’s soon to be ex-wife do a “stand-up” routine. The whole bit was of her talking about how she knows her man cheats, expects him to, and talked about her “naive” friend who just found out her man cheats and told her that all men cheat. I was like dang is fidelity in a marriage that an elusive a concept to expect and something that should just be put up with.
She should have expected more out of that marriage and held Kevin accountable. Now ole dude bout to take her a** to the cleaners.
Well, I can only speak for myself. I know I let it happen because I act too soon, and am too hopeful that XYZ situation is ABC, when it’s really QRS. If I just gave it a few months I’d see the guy for who he really is. I also think I am a bit immature and buy into romanticized fiction too much. but I’m workin on it.
I have the same problems, Liz. You’re not on your own.
Hey at least you mature enough to admit your faults. Most bw act like they’re the best thing since the invention of the internet.
@tg: To be fair, with all the hate directed towards BW, the arrogance on our part might be a defense mechanism and our attempt to practice self-love when any other type of love is scarce. I have NO problem with people tooting their own horn when everyone else is trampling it.
I agree w/ both of you tg and KKC!
Exactly! Who enjoys getting played?
LOL, cosign on “I am tired of yall and your options.” I guess I’ll just be me and hope not to end up as a crazy cat lady : D
I actually agree w/ the options theory. One of my male friends even admitted to it. He made an interesting statement. He asked me how many women that I knew that had degrees, good careers, etc. And then asked how many men I knew aside from those I went to school w/. He was right, while there are plenty of successful men out there, women just outnumber men. Especially in cities like New York, where it is truly a dog eat dog world out here. So in a sense, they do have more options and aren’t willing to necessarily settle down early b/c they don’t have to.
One of my girlfriends told me yesterday that maybe she’s asking too much from her boyfriend and she’s trying to hard for a perfect relationship, when honestly she doesn’t really ask for much if anything. So it’s sad that when men do less than the minimum, but the woman still feels like she’s asking for too much.
But of course not all situations and there’s still hope that we won’t all end up the bitter cat lady!
“So it’s sad that when men do less than the minimum, but the woman still feels like she’s asking for too much. ”
Ummm EXCUSE ME!!!! But HOW do you know me so well and WHY are you talking about me to people i dont know?
(going to the corner to suck on my thumb now)
Cosign. F y’all’s options. Apparently I don’t have any options at all but to deal with the foolishness of brothas and their “options”, LOL.
I recently realized that I’m my most unhappy when dealing with sex/relationships, and that every other area of my life is not just fine but AWESOME, so I’m going to cut that area out. Y’all are too much for me. I quit, LOL.
like for real, for real yall tellin my business. Due to black men n their lil options game, I have actually lost all hope when it comes to marrying a brotha. Im not joking. I am a young, ambitious, beautiful woman with a bachelors who is taking time to travel and work before I start working on my masters. There are VERY few black men in my category even though I went to Howard (aint that some shit?!) and they know this. Hence why they fuck around so much. Its not okay to take the low road when given the option–thats not good character. So with that said, I used to dream of marrying a black man but now I say fuck it! I’ll marry who is right for me and more likely than not-it won’t be a brotha cuz they like their options a lil too damn much.
Umm…to clarify, the options ain’t what it first appears to be for brothas. With so many sistahs in DC it actually becomes harder to find a woman who actually wants you and not to be an arm piece to make her girlfriends hate. Obviously this is not always the case but when their are too many women out there some go into “If the room were filled with brothas, I wouldn’t even notice you but since it is just you…I can settle”.
So now a brotha got alot of options that don’t really love him but you won’t find that out until after the wedding. This is just one aspect that nobody ever talks about. To get to the ONE you have to go through way too many.
There are plenty of f-buddies and husband hunters to be had but true love? Eh! I never thought I would say this but I need some brothers out there to get the wrong women out of my lane!
1) I feel like hip-hop disses women in general and not with a targeted attack on black women. Obviously there are references to black women in songs and in the videos but I dont think that the issues/commentary is exclusive to sistahs
Thank you for typing exactly what I was thinking. Rap sh*ts on all women regardless of race. Can sum1 plz point out to me how Black women are singled out in this genre?
the better question is why is hh sh*tting on women so much, period? Your argument is closely related to champ’s Johnny Cash argument in the piece.
I think Black women are targeted in HH because nobody is gonna stand up for us. Let some black men ride on white women like this for decades and somebody somewhere is not gettin their check. Alternatively, it could also just be that HH creators are Black and thus their female counterparts are Black women, sooo there you go.
Black women are the target in hip hop. That is as obvious as a lime green mack truck. Rappers aren’t talking about women in general, they are talking about US. Look at all the black women in the videos. I agree, let’s get real, white men would never allow the bashing of white women at such levels.
THANK YOU! If it were a bunch of women like a tampon commercial then I’d say they are speaking of women in general. However, when I turned on the vids and see faces mirroring my own on the screen, I know they are talking about black women. Period. End.Of. Discussion!
I don’t hear too many white women listening to hip hop unless its “Bust a Move” or “It Takes Two”..or if its your simple easy going Pop, Top 40 songs. HH is definitley targeting (not all but mostly) black women.
Cosign! This is exactly what Champ is talking about! people are unwilling to be honest about race issues – especially when they are between Black men and women. It is as if women in particular feel uncomfortable talking to men about certain issues. #airingourdirtylaundry
ive noticed that its hard for the black community to really lay it out to black men like that. people tiptoe around it and/or make up excuses as to why they show so much disrespect because of XYZ. but the truth is (and not just in music) black men make up a large part of the perpetrators against black women. and we dont want to fess up to it because the way black men are portrayed and treated we dont want to feel like traitors by saying it. but unfortunately black women (who have suffered the same abuse and carried the same burden) are getting the short end of the stick. again.
these are just my opinions and when i say ‘perpetrators’ im talking mainly in terms of personification/violation of women in music and music imagery, domestic violence againt black women,and sexual harrassment/assault againt black women.
again, just my opinions based things that ive observed in my life.
I don’t know if you’ve been to a club lately, but there is never a shortage of women on the dance floor when these songs come on. I don’t approve using the B* word to refer to any female, but itsl doesn’t seem to affect the female population. HH may be degrding towards are beautiful black sistas, but until the decide to not participate anymore it will more than likely continue. Not to single out any one rapper, but when’s th last time Lil Waynes concert wasn’t sold out, with a lot of screaming women? Do they listen to his lyrics and then think “Well he’s not talking about me specifically, so its ok.”
I agree. I dance to the same songs too! Which is why I’m not harping on hh attacking black women. Change starts at home. Until I can break free of a waka flaka beat, I won’t be pointing any fingers. Raising questions? Sure.
I would like 2 say that you said what the problem is. It is the older and younger bw who need tocheck themselves. It is the women who make these rappers millionaires and give them the high status they are trying to achieve. It all comes down to the mighty $$$$$. A spot in the video,low self esteem, lack of parental ivolvement,attitudes and peer pressure. I wonder if the black females supporting these artists even pay attention 2 the lyrics or just move to the beat of the music. Why aren’t so many of them not offended is the big question?What makes it acceptable in their mind set? What are we teaching the younger generations? Teenage parent(s) listening 2 these songs and passing along acceptance to their young sons and daughters . Self evaluation of knowing the differences of the negative talks need to be addressed to all. No matter what their race may be each person needs to be taught how to decipher a concept of not accepting this behavior because they weren’t taught how to understand the differences of degrading vs. non-degrading lyrics to a song no matter what genre it may me.
Come now it can definitely be inferred that HH is referring to black women when it comes to disrespecting women. Look at videos, the women represented in most tend to be black. If a women of another race is beging referred to then usually the race of the woman is referred to like in the hook in Kanye’s song when he says 30 white b!tches, but that type of singling out is few and far between.
Coldsweat, This goes against the my Man Card membership rules, but I’m going to challenge you on your defense of brothas on 1 and 3.
1. Even if the lyrics were geared at women in general and not just Black women (When Snoop said “B’s ain’t *ish but hos n tricks” I pictured a sista in my minds eye, personally), why the near constant need to talk about women in such a negative way? And why do listeners apparently like that *ish so much? Other music genres may talk about how a particular woman ain’t *ish for one reason or another but too often rap lyrics go for the gender-wide knock down.
3. The options argument alone isn’t a strong one to me. There has to be more to it than that. Who has more options that White and other men who overall are better off than Black men in general? For what ever reason (i think somehow related to whatever the answer is to #1) the generations since the 80s has taken a more cynical view of marriage than men from other racial backgrounds.
@Hustlin While Preppy lol at Man Card membership.
I think HH which honestly has sales to a lot of white listeners represents the men many men WISH they could be. Despite the “bad morals” that HH portrays. Money, Cars, Clothes and Hoes is the ultimate goal of most men regardless of race. Running through women on the reg gives you more props and everyone who is a player always gets respect/admiration. Put that together with hot beats to make a female bounce that booty in the club and you are a multi-platinum artist. LOL Like yourself, i think of black women in the lyrics cuz im black and the rappers are but If i were white I may think of a white woman.*Disclaimer: These are not my personal views*
In regards to #3 I think those who are well off and white do have options and take advantage of them also. With the exception of China there are more women than men. However, coming from a 2 parent household makes you want a 2 parent household more. Blacks arent typically coming from a married household then we you factor in music & the reality that there are options(cuz who is trynna just SETTLE if you think the one who is a dime personality and in looks is out there) then we are delaying that journey down the isle. Not to mention as someone earlier mentioned how black women like getting played(i dont agree per se). Women however do chase after the guy who is chasing multiple women as if they think their p**** is special and can make him change/settle. Saw this story on Dr.Phil with a white woman and it was sad, so sad. Dr.Phil told her you cant change him, any more questions…
“In regards to #3 I think those who are well off and white do have options and take advantage of them also. With the exception of China there are more women than men.”
this is untrue, btw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio
@Champ damn you and Wikipedia!! jk
Cool I was wrong on the world statistic but in America there are more women.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/briefs/phc-t27/tables/tab04.pdf
@ColdSweat
I respect you trying to spread the hate and all lol but when I hear these lyrics, I think of black women…and when white people hear these lyrics, they think of black women too. The music videos show black women bouncing booty, etc…not white women. The only thing these songs do is spread that negative stereotypical images of Black women….and only Black women.
Thanks SGF. BTW we can shut this “HH is targeted to all women” with this right here. View and tell me you still feel this way. BE HONEST!
http://dospestaneos.com/hilton/raplyrics.html
Because Rapper started having ONLY white women in their videos there would be a revolt.
“Brothas got options, too many options…” An uncomfortable race related question based off of that is why do brothers have options and not sisters? I’m personally tired of seeing all of the news specials on how “stable” (educated, career oriented, etc) black women out number “stable” black men and because of this black women are less likely to get married and if they do get married its going to be to someone of a lower socioeconomic status. While the statistic comparing stable black men to stable black women may be true, I don’t think its true that “stable” black women out number “stable” men (black, white, asian, latino, etc.). This is an issue that needs to be addressed as a whole because it can be used to answer numbers 1 & 2 in addition to many other “uncomfortable” issues that involve black women.
@Nyah While the statistic comparing stable black men to stable black women may be true, I don’t think its true that “stable” black women out number “stable” men (black, white, asian, latino, etc.)
Ahhh this is true but alas, other races arent that interested in sistahs…. At least not long term i mean who doesnt want their own Hottentot Venu for a night?
Now if something were to be done about the “angry black woman stereotype” then perhaps yall would get a leg-up in the dating game but until then umm 0_o
In defense I did not laugh when he said we just need to put our d*** in our mouth everytime you start talking nor was it funny when he went into a very long rant about how women should be subservient to your man and god made us in his image, yall are just a rib….
To sum up Eddie Griffin from the other day: “Black women talk to much. Talkin causes stress. Stress causes heart attacks. Black women are litterally killing us.” Regrettably i laughed but he had a really good delivery, sorry sistahs.
@ Nyah you asked “An uncomfortable race related question based off of that is why do brothers have options and not sisters?” The better question would be why does the media give the idea that brothers have options and sisters only have brothers?
@cold Ahhh this is true but alas, other races arent that interested in sistahs…. At least not long term i mean who doesnt want their own Hottentot Venu for a night?
i disagree. Ive lived in Europe (during and after college) and European men overall had no problem with black women (of course I ran into some stereotypes but those were the same stereotypes I run into in America) and no it wasnt a “lets hook up for the night” it was “regular” dates (trips to museums, concerts, etc.) that involved conversations about our family’s now & possible our future family’s. While that whole “angry black women” stereotype may be the reason SOME ppl dont want to date black women the issue also needs to be addressed as to why the media (when i say media i mean news outlets and producers who give the green light for television shows and movies. Not comedians who do sketches although low key I did laugh at the eddie griffin sketch) plays up the angry/slick talking black women & why does the media insist on doing hour long segments on black women as if we’re going through some sort of life threatening illness.
Ahhh this is true but alas, other races arent that interested in sistahs…. At least not long term
The same thing can be said when it comes to general relations between black men and black women. But I digress.
Other races are interested in black women. It is also true that there are many men who aren’t interested in certain individual women. All the black women I know that are/were open to dating outside of their race are either single by choice or married.
This “I’m alone because I’m a black woman” ish has to stop.
“An uncomfortable race related question based off of that is why do brothers have options and not sisters?”
black women do, they’re just not as willing to explore them as men are.
Negative. Black Women are at a decidedly, and documented, disadvantage when it comes to the open SMP (Sexual Market Place). See: the OKCupid study, among a great many others.
But if its consolation to the Sistas, East Asian guys ain’t having a picnic either…
More on these and related points here: http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/the-mirror-uncomfortable-race-related-questions-we-african-americans-need-to-ask-ourselves/#comment-232378
Holla back
O.
“Negative. Black Women are at a decidedly, and documented, disadvantage when it comes to the open SMP (Sexual Market Place). See: the OKCupid study, among a great many others.”
the okcupid study was greatly flawed because of the population it got its data from. all it told me was that the type of men who sign up for “alternative” dating sites like okcupid are less likely to be interested in black women, not men in general.
until someone comes up with an accurate study with controlled controls, you can’t say stuff like “Black Women are at a decidedly, and documented, disadvantage when it comes to the open SMP” as if it’s a concrete truth
Hi Champ,
Alright then, the OKC stuff is suspect, and in truth I have my own concerns about them that I will give voice to over at my place. In the meantime though, what if we consider the US Census data?
Now per that, BM/WW couples outnumber the reverse; there are presently some 70% of such couples, versus barely a third of the reverse? This is an expression of what I said earlier – Black Men enjoy a position out on the open SMP that Black Women do not. Mind you, I’m talking about aggregates here.
Your response?
O.
explain that percentage to me. im slow. 70% of couples, 70% chance, 70% more than the reverse???
yeah I agree. not to mention the pool of men on okc are also a separate suspect group of men.
I have to agree with Obsidian (shocker) that Black women do not have as many options as black men. Women in general are more open to race relations and dating outside of their race than men. For example, there are more white women in interracial relationships than white man. Unfortunately, white, hispanic, etc men are not open to Black women and are more stubborn in their traditional beliefs.
Another interesting point is that inter-racial couples actually have a much higher sucess rate in staying married
As someone who has lived abroad, I’m going to challenge your assertion SFG. Black women in the U.S.A. have less options because of race relations here. There are a few other places where race relations between black people and others are tense as well…and those places are where black women don’t do as well with broader options. But, in places that don’t have that history, black women do well with men outside the race.
We are so conditioned here to believe that only black men find us attractive and no other race really could (unless they are “experimenting”) that we limit ourselves. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy of sorts in the dating world.
I’m not sure I buy that black woman insecurity about only thinking black men find y’all attractive.. In fact, in my experience, black women tend to prefer black men and in turn expect black men to prefer them (and be mad as hell if ever they don’t). I think in general if black women were more excepting of interracial dating, that would make all the difference.
@Mo
I agree and said the same thing babes lol I have lived abroad and well traveled. I was speaking of the U.S. and yes race relations is the sole reason for the lack of interracial relationships. I agree we are conditioned but I believe the hard core proof lies in the lack of acceptance of Black people amongst whites. My point was only that when it comes to dating, white women are more open to black people than white men are open to black people.
black men have that reputation/stereotype of being physically and sexually superior making them an ‘achievement’ (for lack of a better word) for women of all races. im just speaking on attraction not relationships. while in reverse…we (bw) have many negative things associated with our looks (not to say we all look the same). and the general public, as evidenced by commercials, movies, etc., dont find black women to be that attractive unless it is some ‘special’ case
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree here.
Obviously, I cannot speak for all Black women but, from my own personal experiences as well as some of my close Black female friends, I can honestly say that there is not a shortage of “others” that are looking and flirting and holding out their respective dance cards.
On the whole, I get approached *far* more often by White, Hispanic, and European men than I ever do by African-American men (this classification does not include Caribbean-American or actual “African”-American men). And not always on some “Hey how you doin?” but some serious, best foot forward, aggressive pursuit stuff. Here in the heart of Atlanta. Or in gallery boutique in San Juan. Or the streets of Florence. In a restaurant off the Champs-Elysees. By the friendly business owner who did the paint renovations in my office building…or the very married coworkers in same said building. Heck, I *just* had a very lovely date with an colleague from the Netherlands Sunday night.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m cute and all…sometimes I can be downright adorable, in a slightly neurotic way. But I am *not* a traditional or Euro-centric beauty by any measure. And I am decidedly Black (whatever that means). I just smile and act demure and display decollatage and stiletto boots…you know: the universal signals that *all* men understand. My roommate-also Black, but *very* different from me in physical stature (much taller and Boticelli-esque) pretty much dates nothing but men of not-so-vague European or Latin descent. Conversely, I have seen some of my Black girlfriends completely denounce the possibility of dating “other”, either through body language or in ideology…and quite frankly, I just don’t understand it. I am currently breaking one of my girlfriends of this silliness via random dive bars around town though…a little pet project of mine.
Anyway, I’m gonna have to call a foul on this one. At the end of the day, men are men…it’s just a matter of being where they are and taking a good look around.
Oh…and smiling.
“until someone comes up with an accurate study with controlled controls, you can’t say stuff like “Black Women are at a decidedly, and documented, disadvantage when it comes to the open SMP” as if it’s a concrete truth”
This is interesting because I wonder if it has anything to do with geography as well.
Example I live in a middle to upper middle class suburb of Chicago metro which attracts a large number of interracial couples and observationally it is split pretty even bm/ww and bw/wm.
The same thing in the tech industry here you see the wives and husbands of middle management to C level and you see a 50/50 split of IR couples.
As an observation the only time I see a significant shift is when I am in predominately black environments… which I think is a result of women becoming absorbed into a man’s lifestyle.
I also think that the numbers skew when you look at dating organically i.e. people you know socially and/or professionally vs. inorganic dating i.e online. ~JS
Example I live in a middle to upper middle class suburb of Chicago metro which attracts a large number of interracial couples and observationally it is split pretty even bm/ww and bw/wm.
Same here. My own empirical evidence shows me that in my vicinity (family, friends etc…) I actually have more Black Woman/Non-Black Man couples than Black Man/Non-Black Woman couples… I’m sure my sample is very skewed, but I am trying to figure out on which parameters…
@Sula
Na. I see more BW/NBM, or wrong way miscegenation as I like to call it, couples running around. Perception is still stuck in the 80s or 90s.
In my neck of the woods I see the same thing. Funny.
“Na. I see more BW/NBM, or wrong way miscegenation as I like to call it, couples running around. Perception is still stuck in the 80s or 90s.”
This is an interesting comment considering it steamed from the idea that black women have attributes that aren’t desirable.
I think that more and more black women are starting to think that if they want marriage and children black men aren’t a viable option.
Real talk… if brothas consider this “wrong way miscegenation” then what options are left to them when so many brothas are so vocal about how unworthy sistas are on so many levels.
Some of the opinions in this thread alone give the appearance that unless you can walk on water you aren’t worthy… complete with a check list of things that are wrong with women.
In addition brothas make it sound as if their options are limitless and I often wonder if they are in such high demand why would they care what a group of women who aren’t in their radar do.
I do believe that women in part are motivated by the propaganda of black men dating and marrying non black women in larger numbers than are supported by fact.
But can you blame sistas when they receive so much negative feed back from the world at large and black men in particular.
If you meet multiple non black men who say that you are attractive and desirable and I want to marry you and have children and build a life together…
In the end doesn’t that trump waiting for brothas to get on the same page ~JS
I’m not really sure where you’re getting this black men saying how unworthy sisters are thing from. If were to judge which side complained more about the other, I would say the sisters complain more than the men. I’m out there. I deal with the hostility. I’m not going to have the same argument about black women saying they want one thing but chasing another, I’ll let Chille do that for me, and honestly I’ve been more “the other thing” for most of my adult life.
The women I deal with that want to date white guys generalize and lump all black men into one group. It’s like the girls in high school that wouldn’t date anybody from their own school because they were all lame. In fact, it probably is those same girls.
Asian men and black women are the 2 largest groups of “unmarried” people in todays society. Personally I don’t believe that it’s because men do not find black women attractive (or women do not find Asian men attractive). I think that it’s because black women are less inclinded to consider inter-racial dating than black men. IF they would open their minds, and hearts to other races… it might not be an issue.
In Indian and China it is completely disproportionate right now and there are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more men than women (due to their distain for female babies for decades). There’s a whole lot of availble men right there… LOL
How About some Honesty.
Asian men are less attractive to women because of ideas about them having small private parts.
Black women (if the study is correct) are viewed as less attractive, not because of look (many black women are beautiful) but mainly because of personality (attitude) and masculinity. Some would even throw in the slave stereotype that black women are sexually insatiable and aggressive.
Black men are stereotypically seen as good sexual partners and white men stereotypically offer money and some societal authority.
Asian Women are sought after because they are typically submissive and White women are a social prize when they can call on their feminine qualities to the males advantage.
I don’t happen to agree with these ideas in general but these are ideas that have persisted for generations now. Even if you would like to think otherwise.
I have never dated any other race than black women, some of them have been amazing black women. So I know these ideas are not true across the board but things become stereotypes for a reason,
fair or not
I can honestly say that my friends and I are ALL open to dating non-black men, and enthusiastic about it. Hell, I’m the one that needed convincing to look @ white men because I kept saying I only like minority men (that is, anybody but white men). All of us are college-educated young professionals,or we’re in grad school/law/med/dentistry, in large cities (New York, D.C.), seeking men in similar situations–men of ANY and ALL races.
However, I also feel that as open as we are to dating non-black men, we often don’t get approached by non-black men. We run the spectrum in terms of appearance, but all of us are attractive at least in a general sense, and productive young women. I think the reason we are passed over is because non-black men
a) see black men devaluing black women so there’s this idea I think of “If they don’t like their women and they’ve been around them their whole lives, then why should I like black women?”
b) Non-black men have been hearing their whole lives to “not bring home a black girl.” Black women are viewed as a downgrade, unfortunately, no matter how accomplished they are, and I think in terms of desirability there are many men who place black women at the bottom of the totem pole.
Btw, someone made a comment about how European men love black women. However, I don’t think European men and American white men have been socialized the same way in terms of how our respective societies handle race.
“1) I feel like hip-hop disses women in general and not with a targeted attack on black women. Obviously there are references to black women in songs and in the videos but I dont think that the issues/commentary is exclusive to sistahs”
Eh. I think this answer is a bit of a copout. We all know that those cats aren’t referring to Bethany from the suburbs.
“2) Clarification please or maybe im one of the few thats lost.”
I added a bit of clarification as a footnote this morning:
To expound, the personality traits I’m referring to come in the form of taking pride in being a “handful,” giving 1001 reasons why smiling in public is bad, etc. Again, all black women don’t act this way. In fact, most don’t, but enough to make a difference. And, while I’m sure most of the women reading this can name strange entitlements many brothas have as well, what separates the two is that the brothas with ridiculous entitlements usually don’t expect women to actually be attracted to and admire the ridiculousness.
3) As far as the options thing goes, couldn’t you say the same thing about an attractive and successful white—or any other non-black—man?
Excellent points wrt Black Women and their patented Scowl. In fact, I’ll be writing a bit more about this in due course, because it is becoming a pandemic.
As for your points on Hip Hop though, I must respectfully disagree. I think the main reason as to why so much is said by the rappers about the Sistas, is because there is a great deal of truth there, hence all the costernation on the part of Sistas and socalled female “Hip Hop scholars” in the first place. It is indeed a kind of mirror of the mirror we’re discussing right now, where Sistas refuse to grapple with what is actually being said by so many rappers and those who purchase and imbibe the music, and I think it goes right back to your first point and that observed by Whites, that Sistas have adopted certain behavioral norms that make them come off as way too masculine and the like. I think this is something Sistas need to honestly confront, if their goal is to be better received in and by the wider public.
O.
“I think the main reason as to why so much is said by the rappers about the Sistas, is because there is a great deal of truth there, hence all the costernation on the part of Sistas and socalled female “Hip Hop scholars” in the first place. It is indeed a kind of mirror of the mirror we’re discussing right now, where Sistas refuse to grapple with what is actually being said by so many rappers and those who purchase and imbibe the music, and I think it goes right back to your first point and that observed by Whites, that Sistas have adopted certain behavioral norms that make them come off as way too masculine and the like”
i wouldn’t say that the latent cause behind much of the misogynistic music is a great deal of truth. great deal of pain? sure. a great deal of opportunism? definitely. truth, though, is letting these men (and the consumers) off easy; not holding them accountable in the same way you think women should be.
i agree that black women also need to look in the mirror a bit more and start asking “why?” instead of “what?” and “how?”, but we do too.
Champ,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but there have been all manner of various public figures who have had a hand in holding rappers accountable, up to and including at the US Congressional levels, am I right or wrong? Now, when was there a Congressional Commission on Sistaface Scowling, Cobrahead Gesticulation & Noise Pollution Harangues? I’ll wait…
Of course, no one, present company included, is saying that there isn’t any room for legitimate critique of Hip Hop along these lines; but I just find it deeply fascinating that after all these years, NO ONE has ever stopped to consider, once, as to whether what all thesse rappers are saying about the Sistahood, just doesn’t have a weebit of truth to it. After all, 50K Frenchmen, can’t be wrong –
Right?
Holla back
O.
I think when the welfare of the collective is at stake (e.g. Black people) the best standpoint to take is one of self-improvement not finger pointing or the “yeah, I’m bad but so are you” game.
Besides, the fringe argument about Black women and their public demeanor is – well fringe. Hip Hop makes millions off of misogyny and that misogyny is targeted to Black women. Even the handful of female emcees use misogynistic tones, lewd public acts and lyrics. But because men dominate the industry it is up to them to set an example. Not to pass the buck. I promise you, passing the buck and blaming the victim is the absolute least attractive thing a person could do…
a couple things:
1. my goal isn’t to be better recieved in and by the wider public.
2. “I think the main reason as to why so much is said by the rappers about the Sistas, is because there is a great deal of truth there”….
which truths, exactly?
but I dont think that the issues/commentary is exclusive to sistahs
Does that make it better though?
At #1…please. It’s a bunch of black men talking about women and the women in the videos are black. So, while they may “say” they are talking about any women who identifies herself in that category (gold digger, bytch, ho, etc) they videos depict black women. So that’s not a great argument sir.
Sorry, try again.
I would like a better explanation for #2. I’m not sure I understand where that’s coming from. What expectations do most women have and why are they unreasonable?
I didn’t say “most.” just enough to matter.
anyway, i explained #2 a bit in a footnote:
To expound, the personality traits I’m referring to come in the form of taking pride in being a “handful,” giving 1001 reasons why smiling in public is bad, etc. Again, all black women don’t act this way. In fact, most don’t, but enough to make a difference. And, while I’m sure most of the women reading this can name strange entitlements many brothas have as well, what separates the two is that the brothas with ridiculous entitlements usually don’t expect women to actually be attracted to and admire the ridiculousness.
Black women really EXPECT men to be attracted to this? Really?
When I didn’t smile in public, or committed other acts that are the antithesis of what men are attracted to, it was a defense mechanism. As someone who couldn’t walk down the street from 14-21 without some dude harassing me, I utilized these behaviors to lessen the amount of male attention I received.
Are 1,2,3 new problems for Generation X-ers and now Millenials? My Boomer parents and their friends, regardless of socio-economic status married in their early 20s. Same with my (black) Boomer co-workers.
“Black women really EXPECT men to be attracted to this? Really?”
some do, and get upset when men (and other women) call them on it
Sandbalance,
The problem with your approach is that it also screens out the guys you actually like and are interested in outright, andor they observe how your screwface and demeanor impacts other Men, and thet bail. It creates a really nasty feeback loop that winds up being a one way ticket to Cat Ladyville.
O.
Well said O. Then they wonder why they have limited options. If men only dealt with or hollered at women who at the bare minimum gave us a smile, our options would be limited too.
Yes, they are a problem for the current generation, and not for Boomers. Boomers (including my parents), have no idea WTF is going on and are lucky not to be involved.
Omg, my Black Boomer parents have NO clue what’s going on with young black people and the dating situation. They are sympathetic, but confused just the same. In their view, there are far more educated black people on the whole, so the increase in finances at an earlier age due to increasing college-attendance should mean there are more of us willing to settle down sooner. And we don’t. And very often if we do, it isn’t with one another.
HOWEVER….one thing my dad did say one time was that maybe because at the time he attended undergrad there were limited options in terms of what institution you could attend as an African American (my parents are in their early 60′s and attended HBCU’s, as did their siblings and friends within their cohort) so young, educated black people were far fewer in number and clustered together.
hmm…maybe as black men, we have a subconscious deep hatred for black women….
or maybe black people dont know how to act in general….
negative.
This perplexes me. Black women do so much, so where does the hate come from?
I think the hate is for American society in general and our general lot in it. Everyone wants to be black but no one wants to be black. I was just thinking that about 20 years of my life have been spent being hyperaware/conscious/paranoid about being in the public arena. That constant awareness can grate and make a person angry at any and everything.
I feel like this ties into hip hop b/c that is the medium for black men (by and large) to express their inner most thoughts to the outside world. Maybe I’m just reaching and its not that deep.
Stank, I thinks you’re onto something here…
amen bruh….you speakin straight truth
@ Stank-O
This brings to mind W.E.B. Dubois and “The Souls of Black Folks” Specifically where he discusses stream of consciousness and cognitive dissonance. (If you haven’t read it check it out) Which by definition is what you are describing here. The constant push and pull of your subconscious mind which leads to discomfort. Wanting to be accepted (conforming to the majority society) but constantly being told directly or through implications that you don’t belong. I.e.; your inability to relax in public arenas because you feel you have to constantly be on the defense. (I am guilty of this especially where I work now, all 2520′s)
This!!…..”Everyone wants to be black but no one wants to be black” Because contrary to popular belief (mainstream society) we are “POP” culture. We set the tone for everything! But no wants to be Black! It’s my mind boggling to me…….
But I dunno…. I hope this makes since, I know I’m all over the place today. Blame it on the long weekend. Lol!
OKay….so where do these inner-most angry thoughts towards black women come from?? Just because you’re angry doesn’t mean that you should direct it toward black women….explain??
@Leila & Enginegro
As a female, I would say I think the unresolved hatred (if any) is a by-product of unresolved anger and hatred toward their mother. I think the same dynamic that exists between their relationship with their mother is the one they recreate with their significant other by default. Of course there are exceptions to every rule…
Yes. Maybe the men are lashing out at the women because we aren’t able to fix things. Kinda like girls and their daddy syndrome.
Ding Ding Ding….we have a winner.
“As a female, I would say I think the unresolved hatred (if any) is a by-product of unresolved anger and hatred toward their mother. I think the same dynamic that exists between their relationship with their mother is the one they recreate with their significant other by default. Of course there are exceptions to every rule…”
100% co-sign…
I think that there is a perpetual male adolescence that black men are encouraged to indulge in which leads to a lot of the behaviors that we are discussing… misogynistic lyrics, disproportionate numbers for infidelity and not marrying, etc…
I think that we as sistas need to look at how we are raising our sons… because there is an obvious disparity in behavior and achievement between black men and women raised in the same household.
Over the holidays I noticed that the boys were given shooter video games and rap cd’s and the girls were given books and other educational toys with it being deemed that boys weren’t interested in intellectual pursuits.
I have also observed mothers who were taking their lack of male companionship out on their sons either grooming them to be dogs… one of my ex-hommies and I fell out when she was telling her pre-school aged sons they gap you get.
Or grooming their sons as surrogate mates so all the needs typically fulfilled in a relationship except for the sexual are engaged in with their mothers.
Then their is the little Prince syndrome where the mothers think their sons are the only perfect male on the planet… and he grows up with this perception of self.
Add to that a lack of positive male role models who are engaged in long term monogamy or faithful marriage you are essentially left with a group of men who have been raised by peer opinion which has the greatest influence on what they consider normal behavior…
You are left with scores of men who don’t really know how to be men ~JS
I think you make a great point. I don’t have any kids so maybe it is unfair of me to criticize, but I think too many mothers do not think about the kind of MAN they are raising their BOYS to become. I have met way too many men who would not want their mothers/sisters to be treated in the same way that they are comfortable treating women.
“I think that we as sistas need to look at how we are raising our sons… because there is an obvious disparity in behavior and achievement between black men and women raised in the same household”
this is interesting. another uncomfortable question we need to ask ourselves. because i grew up in a household where men are really not held accountable for much. the expectations of them are lower (not ridiculously low but ‘failure’ for them evoked sympathy where as ‘failure’ by the girls evoked ridicule), aggression is more accepted, they had more freedom, and the most telling: when dealing with women the male family members were constantly being instructed 1. to be weary of women and their antics (i.e. my whole family thinks my cousins ex wife was a gold digger..but he doesnt have any f*ckin money!) 2. a womans mistreatment is her own stupid fault (i.e. we suspect my uncle beats his wife but if you ask my grandmother, its his wife thats the idiot) 3. all sexual activity between men and women is a direct result of pure sluthood on behalf of the women (i.e. my other cousin’s girlfriend, note:not wife, is pregnant therefore making her a slut. btw hes 26 yrs old.)
You are left with scores of men who don’t really know how to be men…
I totally agree… I also think that makes black men a bit jealous of black women.
The dynamic has changed, black women are holding it down themselves. Some because they have to, some because they want to… Black men don’t know how to adjust and get that dynamic back. So it has them feeling “some kinda way”.
“This perplexes me. Black women do so much, so where does the hate come from?”
good question
Black women do it ALL. Yet, we are supposed to be all soft, simple and sweet all the time. Maybe if our men knew how to treat us, we wouldn’t have to be soildiers all the time. A soildier is not a smiley, happy go lucky person most of the times. I am not man bashing just putting the mirror up. This is reality.
We have had to carry burdens for years that no other group of women have had to even think about. This has to matter, right?
“Black women do it ALL. Yet, we are supposed to be all soft, simple and sweet all the time. Maybe if our men knew how to treat us, we wouldn’t have to be soildiers all the time. A soildier is not a smiley, happy go lucky person most of the times. I am not man bashing just putting the mirror up. This is reality.
We have had to carry burdens for years that no other group of women have had to even think about. This has to matter, right?”
this all makes sense. but, i do think that some women make themselves martyrs just for the sake of being martyrs.
WHAT! So who else is going to raise the fatherless children, bring home and cook the bacon, keep a nice home all the while striving for better. Do you really think we WANT to do all this by ourselves?
Come on now!
I think we have done well given the hand we are dealt. Why is that we (black women) are supposed to respect and understand your struggle while you (black men) constantly undermine and water down our struggle. This is where the disconnect happens. We have walked the unfair path right along with you, where’s the understanding?
you’re missing my point. i understand that many women have legitimate reasons to feel and act the way they do. i’m not talking about those women, though.
i’m referring to the ones who mean mug and carry a certain attitude with the idea that it’s just them being them and anyone who thinks they should maybe lighten up a bit can go suck a d*ck. and, many times, these are women who have absolutely no reason to act like they’re so angry.
Champ,
Upon an initial meeting, you really have no idea as to why a person is mean mugging. We have hard days just like you do and sometimes a woman isn’t even aware she mugging unless someone says something. Been there done that. If I am having a crazy day, for one, I don’t care to be approached by anyone let alone a potential suitor.
That facial expression should however cue a brother to try to make her smile. Why is that so hard? This is what you have to do in a relationship why not practice with women in the street…try and make her day. Maybe a cute saying or gesture is just the thing needed to make her feel better. Sounds like men take those looks too personal…it is not all about you, ya know?
That is selfish thinking! Instead of thinking well dang if she didn’t look so mean I would approach…how about thinking well what can I do to make another person’s day better.
Yeah I need you to clarify the mean mugging. Are you talking about random stranger women? Or chicks who you know who always scowl and say “whatever” about it. I’m definitely a mean mugger to strangers, as a defense mechanism from street harassment I’ve been a victim of since I was young. But, as you know, I am not like that with people I know or situations I am familiar with. Some women are the same. And some women are permanent scowlers….but something tells me they’re probably doing it for some reason, not just because they feel like it (despite what they say). We’re layered.
beef and liz,
i know women who do this all of the time. and, as far as I know, some of these women don’t really have any serious pain or issue that they’re ‘working through.” i’m willing to concede that i don’t know everything about everyone, but some women need to get the f*ck over themselves.
hurt people hurt people lol. THEY probably don’t even know they have serious pain or an issue to work through. We don’t come out of the womb with a chip on our shoulder. Somewhere, something happened to make that person that way. They’re probably oblivious to this. Meanwhile, black men like you are going around calling us mean muggers and scowlfacers.
i’m willing to concede that i don’t know everything about everyone, but some women need to get the f*ck over themselves. – Champ
Basically.
And if a chick is walking around frowning, why is it a man’s job to make her smile? I may have my reason’s to be in a frowning mood and some stranger trying to cheer me up might not be the best thing for said mood.
Agreed !!!! 100 %
I used to wonder why so many Black people…women AND men walked around with such an angry disposition. That’s the thing with opression, it affects your view of yourself, insecurities, and the angry disposition is like a defensive cloak to protect them from anyone who may try to hurt them. Many of us aren’t happy and combine that with poverty and yeah you will get alot of “mean mugs”. Many of us don’t come into this world with the love and affection as white people do. We’re too busy trying to make ends meet than to hug our children and make sure they’re loved so they don’t grow up with anger. Just feel sorry for them and try to understand that there are a slew of side affects to low self-esteem.
It’s definitely an oppression. We need some hugs.
@SFG
This!!!!!!!!
“That’s the thing with opression, it affects your view of yourself, insecurities, and the angry disposition is like a defensive cloak to protect them from anyone who may try to hurt them”
This statement is completely outlined in “Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome” by Dr. Joy Leary. I heard this sista speak in NYC in college when the book came out. She was the bomb.com!! A very interesting theory. I don’t agree with everything but most of what she said rings true…. Check it out!
Sorry to keep dropping book titles but I’m feeling inspired today!
This undercurrent of hate that black women have for black men has been growing stronger in recent years. It concerns me.
Meech, no one hates black men. I LOVE YOU ALL! But it seems as if you all have literally turned your back on US, so how can we show love to people that don’t know how to receive it?
You all are all so caught up in your ‘options’ that you fail to see what you are leaving behind. A mess. No other women feel this way about their men…so it’s safe to say it something YOU ALL are doing too!
lmao! its funny not because i disagree because i dont disagree. i think there is this two way hate going on, where the attention is always being brought on what the other one lacks or sucks at. black men cant do… black women always do too much…
but your comment tickled me because the way i read it like a newspaper announcement. and the brevity made it read even louder. well done.
“Why is that we (black women) are supposed to respect and understand your struggle while you (black men) constantly undermine and water down our struggle”
Preach! In my last relationship, my ex expected me to cater to his every need. If he had a bad day at work, I was his cheerleader, always providing the support. Meanwhile, I was killing myself at work, taking classes, and helping out my family. When I went to grad school, the same ex did everything he could to stand in my way. He provided no support at all and then said that I expected too much from life.
I feel the need to point out the irony of your statement and the exchange that followed.
GTFOOH
Black women do it ALL.
This is a stereotype. Just like the myth that Black men are better at sports we embrace it because it is “positive.” The problem occurs when sistas don’t seem to be able to do it all and feel less Black because of it. As if they are deficient.
Some critical scholars argue that Black men (primarily) promote this stereotype because they are the ones that benefit the most from this ideal. Think about all those movies with the strong, all-doing, God-fearing, self-sacrificing mother character. Or every Heisman, Grammy, etc acceptance speech you have ever heard.
We constantly load Black women up like farm mules with our dreams, our kids and our debts expecting that if she is a GOOD Black woman she will carry our burdens for the betterment of the community.
But when we are left with nothing but hoarse throats from cheering for everyone else no one feels that pain but us.
We love our sisters but a good number of you are unapproachable. Bottom line…but we holla anyway…
I have to ask. I’m hearing a lot about “screwface,” “mean-mugging,” and the like. Is it really that so many Black women are actually scowling, or is it that a lot of Black men call it scowling simply because it’s not the facial expression they expect us to have? Not having a smile on my face doesn’t mean I’m scowling or unapproachable or “being mean,” as I’ve been told. It means I’m not smiling at that moment.
I’m gonna take it a step further and say that not only do you all hate us, we hate you too. Black people hate each other and feel as though anyone who breaks the mold is stepping out of the “black way of life” and we become poised to take them down. We are taught to hate, mistrust, degrade and slaughter each other every chance we get. The difference with our race and others is that we are very successful in our attempts to chop each other down.
Oprah is a billionaire with her own (literally named OWN) network, yet black people hate her because “she doesn’t do enough for the black community.” Barack Obama is president, but folks…yes our folks…are still hating on him like he somehow set the bar too high for the “average ninja.”
I’m 30 and it’s taken me a long time to unlearn the bad habits placed upon us, by us in relating to one another. I hear black women and men on here detailing why and how they have come to their conclusions about he opposite sex. And those points are usually decided aimed at external factors that cause their unhappiness and inability to find a suitable black mate. However, when you challenge said folks about their notions and encourage them to look inside themselves and truly examine what they believe, how they portray that and how it affects them (both negatively and positively) in the dating game, you get a bunch of folks crying foul on the play…cuz the problem can’t possibly be them. God no!!!!! (*rolls eyes)
When black people get off the “you owe me” thinking train and take responsibility for THEIR lives and THEIR happiness, not being determined by the external forces at work in the world, then we would all get more ouf of this life…relationship-wise, career-wise, etc.
“When black people get off the “you owe me” thinking train and take responsibility for THEIR lives and THEIR happiness, not being determined by the external forces at work in the world, then we would all get more ouf of this life…relationship-wise, career-wise, etc.”
great statement… why do we as black people have such a huge sense of entitlement?
Because, technically, we ARE due something. We just haven’t realized that no one of us is actually ever going to get that 40 acres and we wouldn’t know what to do with a mule if we saw one.
Deviant…we are NOT due anything. The sooner we get that, the better. We are not the only race of people who have endured atrocities across the board. Yet we somehow think that the pain of our ancestors and the ensuing plight we face today is more substantial than any one else’s. As if our situaiton supercedes the situations and histories of others.
It does not.
No other group on in modern time has experienced slavery and oppression to the same extent and for the same length of time as the Black American. Yet many groups (e.g. Jews, survivors of asbestos poisoning, Chinese etc) have been given reparations by federal governments. So whether or not you agree with feeling entitled is one thing. Totally your own opinion and I respect that. But Black Americans have had a unique experience that cannot and should not be denied.
Black people have endured undeniable hardship and unspeakable atrocities without any acknowledgement for hundreds of years. Only within the last couple of decades has any president even publicly APOLOGIZED for slavery. It’s like our culture was raped and after centuries of torment the abuse slowed to a gentle slapping across the face every now and then, only recently, was like “My bad about the whole rape thing.”
There’s been no resolution to that part of our history. We haven’t received any justice.But, what would justice look like now? And, where would it come from? That’s where the frustration is coming from. We’re born into the remnants of this abuse and we don’t know where to direct this anger that we feel.
So YOU can argue who’s plight was more significant. That’s not what I’m about. I believe that all who suffer should receive comfort. But I’m an idealist.
At the very least we are due a formal apology from our country.
“I’m gonna take it a step further and say that not only do you all hate us, we hate you too. Black people hate each other and feel as though anyone who breaks the mold is stepping out of the “black way of life” and we become poised to take them down. We are taught to hate, mistrust, degrade and slaughter each other every chance we get. The difference with our race and others is that we are very successful in our attempts to chop each other down.”
Shut it down girl…
This sh*t right here will be the righteous death of us ~JS
Exactly.
We do more to ourselves than any other race ever could. (slavery removed, however)
Le sigh. Gotta let this marinate and I’ll jump back in.
The first word that comes to mind is Emulation as a response to these questions though.
Great Post.
“The first word that comes to mind is Emulation as a response to these questions though.”
please expound
2. I think this comes from the fact men and women are two different creatures, we know but add Black in front of either gender and you have a bigger beast to tackle but a rose is still a rose…
4. I think Black people tend to use the race card just like other races. I think we just use ours more as a defense against our sometime juvenile actions. I guess we tolerate it because we are “still owed something.”
We like to tackle issues when we are comfortable. When it comes to talking about what’s really going on we don’t want to feel threaten. I can’t wait to see what discussions come of this good post. You know people tend to feel more secure behind the computer.
“4. I think Black people tend to use the race card just like other races. I think we just use ours more as a defense against our sometime juvenile actions. I guess we tolerate it because we are “still owed something.”
i agree that everyone uses it, regardless of race. but, the way we use it sometimes annoys the hell out of me (and sometimes i annoy the hell out of myself)
#2 very well could be one of the most uncomfortable of all time.
I’m sure some of the answers to the questions posed will result in essays. I say that because I almost wrote one.
This site isn’t applicable to my question, but…
Why is it so difficult to get a lot of Black folks to talk about issues of importance, yet so easy to get folks discussing foolery and critiques of people that ultimately don’t impact their own lives?
I think guys like you, VSB and SBM do a great job to get the conversation started. I can’t tell you how much more I have learned about relationships and women in general from just reading the comment section. lol.
Reading comments is an enlightening experience for a lot of folks it seems. I didn’t know how much until I sat and started reading them myself.
@tgtaggie
Aint that the truth!
“Why is it so difficult to get a lot of Black folks to talk about issues of importance, yet so easy to get folks discussing foolery and critiques of people that ultimately don’t impact their own lives?”
I ask myself this question often. Although, I am incredibly guilty of indulging into the foolery that is Antoine Dodson. Love him.
Anyway.
Mindless activity and discussion takes precedence over substantive issues because its…well…mindless. And EASY. Black people, more than any other race, tend to take the road less travelled and the EASY way out of many life situations, beyond and including conversation. Like the brotha that chooses to sell drugs rather than completing school and becoming employed. Or the sista that remains in a relationship with “Boo-Boo the Fool” when she knows that he’s no good because it’s easier to stay than leave. Taking a step a back to analyze yourself, your race, and/or personal issues takes a greater strength and most folks aren’t aren’t willing to do.
The Truth Hurts. Especially when it’s about you and your issues.
“Why is it so difficult to get a lot of Black folks to talk about issues of importance, yet so easy to get folks discussing foolery and critiques of people that ultimately don’t impact their own lives?”
Even though I think intelligent discussion and Black folks’ willingness to partake in said discussion IS out there (just not particularly everywhere), I think this comes back to the same reason why folks go to the movies or listen to music instead of doing something more “serious” such as dealing with issues in their lives or in their community. It’s escapism. Which, it’s nothing wrong with that, we all need it every once in a while. Problem is, I think we’re doing more escaping than dealing. :-/
So the question then becomes, my dear Cheekie:
WHY do Black folks spend so much more time “escapin’” then everyone else? We are so recalcitrant in terms of openly grappling with what are clearly pathological behavioral norms? Why can’t we honestly engage Whites in discussions along these lines, without resorting to cries of “racism”? Why hasn’t there been numerous examples of entertainment like The Wire – a series that was created and written by a White Jewish Man, I might add.
I mean, what is up with all that?
O.
WHY do Black folks spend so much more time “escapin’” then everyone else?
Numbers please. We can’t make blanket statements like out of our a$$es, so I need numbers. Thanks.
I mean…if we were to require stats for everything then 90% of discussions wouldn’t happen?
See what I did there? lol. Seriously though, some things don’t require stats. As long as it’s fairly obvious, it’s worth discussing in some form whether blanket statements or not.
As long as it’s fairly obvious
Obvious to whom though?
Bollywood is one of the biggest industries in the world…. and the whole premise of Bollywood is ESCAPISM at its greatest… last I heard, it wasn’t black people who powered the Bollywood industry…
so what may be obvious to you may not be obvious to me.
So I need numbers on the fact that black people are the MOST likely to dwell in escapism …. And we can’t use our “realities” because obviously my reality tells me different…
If we have to make an argument, let’s make it a good one. Fallacies can only go so far.
I think the issue is about a sense of powerlessness. I think it is difficult to change/take control of your life when you don’t realize that you actually have the power to do that. When I was a public defender many of my clients were young black men (actually most of them were) and it was amazing to me how little responsibility many of them took for their actions. Of course not all of them were guilty, but many of them were and it would amaze me how the guilty ones would think the Judge or the Prosecutor was sending them to prison, without actually realizing that (police targeting, unfair sentencing,etc. aside) they had a big part to play in where they ended up. Life is easier when you sit down and let it happen to you instead of engaging in it.
“…pathological behavioral norms?”
Sorry but no sale!
“I’m sure some of the answers to the questions posed will result in essays. I say that because I almost wrote one. ”
i havent made it all the way down thread, but so far no one has tried to answer that
Why is it so difficult to get a lot of Black folks to talk about issues of importance, yet so easy to get folks discussing foolery and critiques of people that ultimately don’t impact their own lives? – Slimuel
Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People.
And that goes across all color lines.
I teach at an all boys school, and the conversations I hear make me want to bang my head against my desk sometimes. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard thes (mostly dark skin) black boys say “I want me a yellabone/redbone girl with good hair”. Mostly quoted in the context of a Gucci Mane/Soula Boy song. Thanks BET for ruining another generation.
I’m trying to break through to these boys about the self hate you have to carry if you yourself are black as tar and you despise it soo much you praise anything that is exotic/opposite. But so far I’m not getting through. Le sigh #wegotstodobetter
I think BET gets waay too much of the blame for the foolishness my gender says (especially adolescents!). The Red Bone/Good Haih Premium meme has been around with Black folk for a long time before BET. The difference is that my parents and others (plus my natural ***brilliance**** which allowed me to see past certain things, of course) at least provided at least some counterpoint to that idea.
‘I think BET gets waay too much of the blame for the foolishness my gender says (especially adolescents!). The Red Bone/Good Haih Premium meme has been around with Black folk for a long time before BET.”
yea, they’ve become a convenient scapegoat
Consider yourself fortunate, because these kids don’t have parents that can counteract the things they hear and see on a daily basis radiating from their tv screens. When I have a 13 yr. old whose parent is only 30 (and herself a product of the BET/HipHop generation) who has been feeding off the same nonsense, its kind of hard to expect quality results to come from home. Thats why I said BET has ruined another generation. They might not be the sole source, but I be damned if they aren’t a major contributor.
I agree with this. Stereotypes have been around for a long time, but mixed with our 24/7 Internet obsessed culture makes them even more pervasive. Only an environment that consistently discusses and disproves them can help our children.
Consider yourself fortunate, because these kids don’t have parents that can counteract the things they hear and see on a daily basis
So maybe that’s the problem we need to tackle?
Because in all honesty, BET is a business not a non-profit organization…and one of the major roles of a business is to make money for its stakeholders. While we may despise BET, they aren’t doing anything wrong as far as business goes…
I agree. Although I do blame rap for alot of the negative messages, BET only plays what we want to see, hear. They are in the business of making money and know what sells. So as long as we’re buying, they’ll supply. We need to tackle this internally. The light skin/good hair choice stems from slavery with the light skin slaves being in the house. This cause resentment amongst the dark skin blacks in the fields.
This is so true. I never became more aware of brown skin and how it worked to my disadvantage in the dating realm until I went to an HBCU. I’m sure that my seemingly well-educated peers weren’t basing their preferences off of the images on BET alone. I have a good number of male friends who are trying to preserve or create that caramel-complected color line (whether they want to admit of not).
1. I always wondered about that one too. But when you see how black women (and women in general) are enjoying the music (dancing at the club, buying the music, going to concerts in droves, etc). Educated black women for some crazy reason love some Lil Wayne and co. The music powers that be are going to continue to make it.
2. Ima need a lil more clarification on that one (an example would be what personality traits compared to other races of women)
3. I think we are trained at an early age that we (black men) need to have our s*it together before we even think about walking down that aisle. IMO, white guys believe in building a legacy with their wives (hence the reason why they normally get married straight out of college). I think they also believe in power of having two incomes to work toward a common goal (houses, land, business, etc). Also the main reason why white folk will continue to have buying power in the future.
4. Most black folks I know (and the ones that comment on here) keeps it real. And I like folks that keeps it real.
“1. I always wondered about that one too. But when you see how black women (and women in general) are enjoying the music (dancing at the club, buying the music, going to concerts in droves, etc). Educated black women for some crazy reason love some Lil Wayne and co. The music powers that be are going to continue to make it.”
I agree. although hip-hop is a black male dominated industry, it is not black male only black men supporting it. Its not like only black men are listening/buying/attending concerts of hip-hop artist that degrade black women.
Personally i think its become so common to listen to blk women be degraded in hip-hop that its the norm. Its usually not an issue until its pointed out or presented in(ie this question/blog post).
if it were a big problem and only males listening/supporting every blk night club/night club dance floor would be empty or only have blk men on them, b/c blk women wouldn’t dare dance to/goto a club where hip-hop degrading black women is played. lol but we all know that never happens
tgtaggie,
3. 98% Cosign
4. Keeping it real is cool, until it goes wrong. Just because somebody has a strong, “real” doesn’t make all the *ish they spit right though.
@4. I should have explained it a little better. I think the line (keeping it real) is in the middle.
I really like tgtaggie’s #3 response…didn’t hear of that before now. It totally makes sense.
Why all the blacks in my graduate school class score the lowest. We all work hard, some of us (not me) are Ivy League grads, but when it comes down to it, we all usually end up scoring in the same (lower) part of the curve.
I’ve been avoiding this question for a year and a half now.
I think its because for some reason (I can’t phantom) we have a disconnect between the importance of education. My parents generation (mid-post civil rights 1950-1960s) understood the importance of a good education. because they saw first hand how many doors could open based on education alone.
The funny thing is that when I was in undergrad (I went to an HBCU) the white people in my classes probably were some of the most driven people there. And some of the blacks were too busy chasing a**, not studying and bullsh*ting their way through college. And then they wonder why they are pass on job opportunities, promotions and etc.
Exactly. I’m a week and change behind in school, but reading this post, and my 2520 classmates are probably sound asleep, having taken advantage of the holiday to fully catch themselves up, and ready to wake up at 5am and run six miles before heading to class bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
you need to log all the way off and get to studying lolol
There was a Times article about this. They did studies of kids in affluent neighborhoods, no socioeconomic disadvantage, like the parents of these high school kids were doctors, surgeons, engineers, and still the kids scored lower when compared to their white, and even Hispanic counterparts.
“The funny thing is that when I was in undergrad (I went to an HBCU) the white people in my classes probably were some of the most driven people there. And some of the blacks were too busy chasing a**, not studying and bullsh*ting their way through college. And then they wonder why they are pass on job opportunities, promotions and etc.”
In your case this may be true, but I know more than enough white kids who squandered their way through school, like hard core drinking, partying, banging chicks and they still could roll up to class with crusties in their eyes and seems to have no issue. I think it has less to do with drive, I mean like stlunatic said, he’s in Grad School, that would conclude a certain amount of drive? I
I think it has to do with the way blacks teach, and talk to their kids. Its not just having a good education, its how to navigate through it. If you don’t know how to study, if you don’t know how to balance those things, you will know its important, but you won’t be able to ‘win’ at it, for lack of a better word. The TImes article said that by the time an African American child reaches Kindergarten they are like 3 years behind their counterparts.. THE HELL? I tutored in a ritzy (see note: Mostly white) area of Houston, and I noticed that white parents use ALL THINGS as a teaching opportunity. They don’t let anything that is teachable pass their child by. I really think those are the things that keep a child competitive.
You could also try the Nigerian Method of teaching kids, you drill the work till they succeed and beat the hell out of them when they don’t. Obviously its very damaging to a child’s psyche, but if results are what you are after, then its worth a try. (Speaking from personal experience)
@ simplysope on the Nigerian reference,
Then the kid ends up learning by rote. There’s a seeming ‘intellectual’ connection without an ‘emotional’ connection. You seemingly understand what’s being taught but cannot apply the said understanding to real life issues. That’s why you find Nigerian graduates (in Nigeria which applies to all African nations as well) unable to translate theory to practice (functional illiterates!). Often times, you find that a well-below average kid transplanted from the Nigerian educational system (even elitist schools) to a better system (UK, US) thrives…usually tops the class.
I do agree with 2520′s making ALL situations a learning experience for the child. We should emulate that. We too focused on paying bills. Our take is as long as the kid’s bringing home good enough grades & staying outta trouble then everything’s fine.
That’s the reason why a lot of smart people have no common sense at all. See Champ’s #1,2,3
I’ve seen my share of 2520s bullsh*t their way through undergrad and life. We as blacks can’t afford to bull*hit our way through life. Because 90% of the time we have nothing to fall back on.
Also some black kids aren’t taught by their parent(s) to have the drive to be the best that they can be. Yea the Nigerian method works but it also can make a kid emotionally effed up. I found (from watching my parents with my little siblings) if you talk to a kid rationally and explain to them why they were wrong. Instead of beating the wrong out of them. They pretty much gets it.
Another recently published study showed that white people talk to their kids more when they’re babies. Lower-class black folks don’t talk to their kids enough and their kids start school with a language deficit.
There is also a deficit of books in lower-class homes. (People don’t seem to go to the library any more.) Again, children start school behind.
There we go…it’s not often about the socioeconomic status, and not even “hard” you study, but it’s about if that method is working for YOU. Education is not one size fits all, contrary to popular belief, and if you haven’t found what works for you in terms of studying, then you will continue to behind. No matter the length of time put forth.
It has bee a while, but all the blacks in my grad school class were recognized as being the sharpest. All of my cohort graduated with their degrees, where many of the non-blacks dropped out. We stuck together, formed study groups, had dinner parties, etc. We wanted to make sure we all did well. And we did.
I didn’t say it earlier in my initial post but I did the same thing. One thing I did learn from attending an HBCU….We really do stick together and want to see each of us do well.
“It has bee a while, but all the blacks in my grad school class were recognized as being the sharpest.”
yeah, i remember reading a study or story about the fact that while the black kids in law school usually had lower gpa’s than the white kids, the black kids usually fared better professionally.
@Stlunatic
I think this is because we don’t get the same “start” as our white counterparts. For example, I have a daughter that goes to a predominantly white school and we live in a white area. I can tell you these kids start reading at preschool level. These parents are all about outdoing each other in academics for bragging rights. They want their children to be book smart so there is a strong emphasis on learning here. In the Black community, there’s more of an emphasis on life than learning. Black kids don’t start reading until the 2nd grade. When you don’t get that jump start, it does affect your ability to learn and absorb information. History shows us this and I think this is the main reason why blacks are behind academically.
to SFG and the rest:
As easy as it is to blame it on upbringing, I’m wondering if there is a deeper cause. Having an unequal upbringing/childhood emphasis on life rather than education is definitely a valid explanation. For high/middle school performance inequalities.
I think the fact that we’ve been through college, and had to be very successful to get into this particular school and program, can rule out upbringing as a factor. A highly successful undergraduate record entails that we’ve already dealt with whatever issues with academia we had as a child. It’s too late for all that, B. We’re too old.
I’ve been thinking about it, and it could be the particular strategies that the 2520s employ that we don’t. They study in groups, they’re on top of aggregating supplementary material and using it. Another big issue that I’ve been avoiding, and that no one talks about, is that I highly suspect a fair percentage of them are on mood altering drugs.
“I highly suspect a fair percentage of them are on mood altering drugs.”
If that is the cost of being on top of things, than I’d rather stay in the middle/bottom. I am all for competitive focus, but to me that is akin to cheating, and I’m not down with that. I can only do my best within the parameters of what I consider right and honest, and if those 2520′s want to get 4.0′s using drugs then they can have them. I mean you can’t (I would hope no5) use that ish as a crutch through life.
*sigh* good point, but you saw my tweet. I made an appt for Monday. When in Rome. . .
“3. Even if you control inc0me, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?”
For me it’s simply this: Upon arrival at that point in my life where I have abandoned the pursuit of frivolousness, novelty, and superficiality, I have not since met a single lady who I have been able to envision a long-term exclusive relationship with, who has also regarded me in the same manner. In other words, I have not met the right one.
Further, at this point in my life I am not so desperate to be married that I am willing to marry any warm body who has shared my presense with a smile, just for the simple sake of being married. My desire to be married seemingly increases along with my age so maybe one day the preceding won’t be a factor; however, as it stands, I still have standards.
More troubling are the facts that I have recently found myself to be seriously and openly discussing the possibilities afforded by mail-order arrangements and the fact that I have contemplated doing research in that regard. At this point though, I have maintained an open mind to both online dating and the more traditional means of meeting and dating, in spite of continued frustrations with the same. That’s where I am anyway.
In a word – GAME.
More here: http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/the-mirror-uncomfortable-race-related-questions-we-african-americans-need-to-ask-ourselves/#comment-232378
O.
“GAME. Black Men have been noted for having more broad-based sexual appeal than other groups of Men on balance, and thus do not need to do what other Men do in order to secure feminine company and sexual favors. We don’t get married as much because we don’t have to. Just anyone else does what they do…”
I don’t disagree with your assessment, but, it is important to note that, for most, this is only applicable for a season. For me that season was the pursuit of frivolousness, novelty, and superficiality that I referenced. As a person matures, the recognition of the importance of stability and the creation of a more substantive relationship becomes more apparent and thus becomes more desirable. When I was a child I thought like a child and acted like a child. As an adult, I have abandoned childish pursuits.
C,
That may indeed be the case FOR YOU, but as Champ rightly noted, and the stats bear him out on this, Brothas simply do not get married at the same rates as do other groups of Men in America, and that cuts accross socioeconmic lines. I am suggesting the reason why that is has everything to do with the enhanced Sexual Marketplace postion Black Men, in aggregate, enjoy. We do what we have to do, more often than not, and when we don’t – we won’t.
Holla back
O.
Yeah brother may not get married in order to sow their oats, etc, however it is obviously to their detriment. Black men are dying between 50-60s for some reason; maybe it has something to do with not wanting to grow up.
It is already known that men live longer lives when married. I guess different booties is more important than longevity…is it?
Repeat after me:
Imposed celibacy is worth than death for the Male.
Wash, rinse, repeat until it sinks in…
O.
Well than get married, no celibacy required for that.
BB,
With the way Sistas in aggregate act? No thanks…
O.
What happens when black men get older?
They pop a few Viagras and keep on strokin’.
Next question?
O.
Once again, I don’t disagree with you. I have no reason to suspect that the assertion by The Champ and you that Brothas simply do not get married at the same rates as do other groups of men in America is for some reason false. Further, I am completely agreeable with your citation that we do what we have to do, more often than not, and when we don’t – we won’t.
I do, however, find it difficult to believe that the “Sexual Martketplace” is the sole decision making impetus for the activities of Black men beyond their 20′s regarding marriage and relationships. At a younger age, I, like many others, was driven by sexual pursuits pressumably due to greater hormonal influences.
The “sexual marketplace” for black men (more likely, men in general) is more enhanced, not necessarily because I am a black man, but rather, moreso because puritanical attitudes in American society in general are being recognized as obsolete and contrary to natural instinct. While I continue to appreciate the more liberal change in American sexual attitudes and have certainly enjoyed the spoils thereof, I now want more than just another sexual encounter with just another female. In my 30′s, I find that that is simply no longer enough. My focus has shifted. I want a package, not just a piece.
C,
We definitely agree on the social, economic, political changes that have changed the SMP to the advantage of Black Men. Where we kinda disagree is with your suggestion that those Brothas who choose to remain umarried and enjoy a full sexual lifestyle with as many Women who are willing are somehoe less than in comparison to Brothas as yourself. You didn’t say this, but one could infer it from what you wrote, and I for one take exception to the implication.
I am for Men deciding for themselves what their lives should be like. For some Men, such as yourself, that will mean taking a wife or a longterm mate, and I for one am completely cool with that. But for others, the George Clooney route works much better, and there shouldn’t be anything wrong with that either. When it comes to Brothas in aggregate, based on all available data, they seem more inclined to go the latter route, than the former.
Viva la difference.
O.
Once again, I don’t disagree with you. I have no reason to suspect that the assertion by The Champ and you that Brothas simply do not get married at the same rates as do other groups of men in America is for some reason false. Further, I am completely agreeable with your citation that we do what we have to do, more often than not, and when we don’t – we won’t.
I do, however, find it difficult to believe that the “Sexual Martketplace” is the sole decision making impetus for the activities of Black men beyond their 20′s regarding marriage and relationships. At a younger age, I, like many others, was driven by sexual pursuits pressumably due to greater hormonal influences.
The “sexual marketplace” for black men (more likely, men in general) is more enhanced, not necessarily because I am a black man, but rather, moreso because puritanical attitudes in American society in general are being recognized as obsolete and contrary to natural instinct. While I continue to appreciate the more liberal change in American sexual attitudes and have certainly enjoyed the spoils thereof, I now want more than just another sexual encounter with just another female. In my 30′s, I find that that is simply no longer enough. My focus has shifted. I want a package, not just a piece. In that regard, I doubt that I am unique.
@Cab
This is my take on the lack of marriage within the Black community:
Commitment. We lack commitment and follow through. Young Black boys watch their fathers walk out the door, or cheat on their mothers, or abuse their mothers, etc. This affects the childs view on marriage in general. He is less likely willing to get married in the future. Take the young black girl, she watches her mother resort to s.ex to keep her father home, this will affect her view on marriage as well. You can also look at the single mothers who raise children alone, have multiple boyfriends during the course of their children’s childhood. This affects the child who will more than likely grow up to emulate her mother and less likely to get married herself. It’s all a cycle Cab.
Now combine that with all of the options that men have, why choose just one? Someone upthread gave an excellent analogy of going to the mall, with tons of stores, and trying to buy one shirt. When you have all these options, you get lost along the way. Also, the rap music and culture surrounding doesn’t help. We pump s.ex into everything where it’s all about getting ours. We put less emphasis on a mental connection so it hinders our efforts in finding “the right one”.
#1. Wow, that’s a deep question. I’m sitting here trying to figure out what the 1st negative song I heard was. Oh yeah, Just-Ice’s “That Girl Is A Slut”. Honestly, I think rappers took the “pimp game” waaaaaaaaaaaay into left field.
It’s almost like once people found out Ice-T and 2 Live Crew were making serious paper, they figured, “I wanna get paid too”. But you could look at it from the point of view that white record execs pushed artists toward negative material because it sold.
Also, I think it has to do with “daddy issues”. I think you’ve had a post or 2 on the subject. A lot of that blog material could be applied here.
Even looking at my hip hop collection, I see a lot of misogynistic material. Admittedly, I nod my head to a lot of it. But I’ve noticed that I won’t play it around my wife. Maybe that’s my home training kicking in.
I don’t really think white execs told rappers to put down women or black women for that matter. It’s not a causal relationship. At the end of the day they care about what sells, and if positive material sold, then they’d push people to do that.
I think hip hop inherently treats women as currency, and has done so from the very early days. If you could prove how many chicks were into you then that made you better than the next dude. Rappers turned materialistic after a certain point, rapping about their shoes, gold chains, and cars and the women who wanted to be with them. Back then this may have seemed somewhat innocent, but women = currency is just as sinister as calling women hoes is today. I think over time hip hop morphed it into something else, and now all of a sudden we’re big booty h0es and b*tches, etc.
Liz,
Kudos to you for clear thinking on the first part of your comment – given the mushy sofat reasoning that passes for considered thought and analysis among your Sistas, it is a most welcome development indeed.
Alas, I must respectfully disagree with the latter point of your commentary; Hip Hop has always been about “bling” going all the way back to the days of Kurtis Blow – just look at the Caddys on the covers of his albums. Living large has always been a part of Hip Hop culture. The reason why rappers say the things they do about Black Women is because, at based, its TRUE. Until Sistas begin to actually grapple with these truths, nothing will change.
Think on it.
O.
The thing is that rappers talk about the type of women that they attract i.e golddiggers and h0es and extrapolate that to all women. Are they really trying to get with the everyday black women or are they looking for the superficial standard pretty looking groupies with superficial wants.
Deeds,
Please point out to me the rappers who make the claim in their songs that ALL Women, for all time, forever and ever Amen, are bitches and hoes?
I’ll wait. Thanks!
O.
That sounds like a cop out. They generalize when rapping all the time. They say b!tches instead of saying women all the time when refering to us. Do they really refer to women as women on a regular basis and then have one song where they refer to that one b!tch they met. nope, we get
b!tches and sh!t but h0es and tricks.
I don’t think you read my point properly. I know HH has always been about bling, since the beginning, and women have been considered part of this bling, hence being treated as currency.
I disagree that what rappers say about it true about black women though. Sure, some things are based on real life experiences, but is it a causal relationship? Doubtful. You can’t tell me that because it happens in real life, they rap about it. A lot of hip hop is escapism and fantasy and I think the role of women is part of this, just like many diff topics of hip hop. There’s too much embellishment in enough places, and I refuse to believe hip hop is the Wikipedia of the streets or the Black experience.
Liz,
So I just want to make sure I get this straight:
When Tupac talks about “And That’s Why The Call You A Bitch”, you mean to tell me, that this was a flight of fancy for him? A figment of his imagination? It was all in his dark, twisted fantasies? It had NOTHING to do with the real world? Nothing to see here, move along?
Is that what you’re telling me, with a straight face?
Because if that’s so, Liz, maybe you can answer this one:
Why has Hip Hop, particularly of the Gangsta Rap variety, been such a consistent and big seller, accross racial groups of young Men, for two decades running now? How do you explain that? I say it’s because they can deeply relate to what the rappers are saying, ESPECIALLY wrt Women, and it might just be, because of the Women’s conduct and behavior themselves.
Checkout Susan Faludi’s book “Stiffed” for more on this point. It’s not all just in their heads, Liz. And I know this is a very hard thing for you Sistas to hear, but hear it you must, because everyone from here on Earth to Alpha Centuri knows the deal with Sistas and their attitudes, etc. At some point, you simply have to look in that mirror.
What’s it gonna take?
O.PS: Chuck D said that Hip Hop was the Black Man’s CNN…
HH, much like PORN, is selling a fantasy and that is the main reason that both are big sellers across the board. People see regular lookin’ ninjas with all the “finer” things in life and for just a second you envision yourself there. If I had a nickel for every man that I have met that is a rapper/producer etc, well id build a house out of nickels. I would even venture to say that it has come to the point now that HH is shaping reality and not vice versa.
True, some songs are based on reality, but the majority are about a lifestyle that a very, very small percentage of pple have actually experienced.
I think Liz said it best with “everyone talks themselves into thinking that sh*t is true across the board. People need to turn off the radio”
HH, much like P0RN, is selling a fantasy and that is the main reason that both are big sellers across the board. People see regular lookin’ ninjas with all the “finer” things in life and for just a second you envision yourself there. If I had a nickel for every man that I have met that is a rapper/producer etc, well id build a house out of nickels. I would even venture to say that it has come to the point now that HH is shaping reality and not vice versa.
True, some songs are based on reality, but the majority are about a lifestyle that a very, very small percentage of pple have actually experienced.
I think Liz said it best with “everyone talks themselves into thinking that sh*t is true across the board. People need to turn off the radio”
Just WOW at this…”the mushy sofat reasoning that passes for considered thought and analysis among your Sistas, it is a most welcome development indeed”. SMH.
LOL,
To be frank, rappers have been saying negative things about sistahs almost from its inception…. I got Ice T’s first album when it came out. He had a song on it called, “Girls L.G.B.N.A.F” or Girls Lets get buck naked and F***….and that was waaaaaayyyy before Two live crew made their mark. Same thing with Schooly D. His tape(lol) talked about chicks with big butts all through out. Even, everybodys favorite rapper, Slick Rick had a song called, “Treat her like a prostitute.” lol The tipping point probably happened when straight outta compton (NWA) came out…and went platinum with little to no airplay. Then Labels discovered that you can push certain types of music and people will buy, and buy, and buy….lol
I do think that there is a certain grain of truth to what those guys are rapping about too. We ALL know chicks like these. If not, just go online to dimewars.com, or worldstarrhiphop, or some other site and sit back in amazement. Or go on youtube. Same thing
When Lyte, Latifah and a few other females pushed strong images…it didnt really work for them, in terms of sales and popularity. In hindsight, we recognize them as alltime greats….but they had NO WHERE NEAR the popularity that Lil Kim, and Foxy Brown had..or even Nicky Minaj. Thats just how it goes.
And while we know that not ALL sistahs are like the ones these rappers rap about when they get labeled this and that……..we also know that if a rapper actually rapped about women in all their good qualites, that not ALL women are like that either.
This is what I was referring to, is it the chicken or the egg, in our generation, do these young women on youtube, worldstarr etc. hear the words and/or see images of hypersexual women and emulate them to get attention or are the women already there and media is just following suit.
I would concede that it could be a combination of both
May I also add that a girl being a “$lut” is a fantasy, and $exual fantasies sell. There is nothing special about this. I wonder why we accepted it so willingly in the black community though? Or did we really accept it; maybe that’s just the perception of someone young who was in more environments where that music was played (the “underclass” hole-in-the-wall)?
When I think back to 2 Live Crew et. al. that music was moreso $tripper music than anything else. How did it go from there to the radio?
You mentioned Ice-T as well- I feel like two came at it from two different perspectives. In the south it was more about dancing and telling women to take their clothes off. In the west, it seemed to be something different- “I don’t love them h0es”. When did the two combine?
I think the element of fantasy and escapism is true in hip hop. We of course are the pushers of fantasy because reality sucks for us. And we buy into the fantasy because reality sucks for us. It just seems like over the years, it had to get more and more escapist and ridiculous. That post we had months ago about men who give women spending money (cash in hand) to get her nails done? Complete hip hop fantasy. Keeping it that simple is straight from an LL Cool J song, not reality. then everyone talks themselves into thinking that sh*t is true across the board. People need to turn off the radio.
LOL, you know what Dave Chapelle said about those drums. That’s the problem! All that bass, people gotta shake their a$$es! We can’t escape.
I’ll tackle (1) and (3):
1. Music is just another business. Businesses are about their bottom line and as long as people support ignorance, ignorance will continue to exist. The same goes for degrading music, Wendy Williams, Snooki, lacefronts and knockoff LV purses.
3. IMO Black men think they have TOO many options. Couple this with the fact that many believe they deserve an “exotic woman who has saved herself” while they go out and sow their royal oats in any and every open field. *insert remarks about double standards* Instead of embracing the many different flay-vahs of black women, it seems like they dart straight for the chicks with long hair, fake bootays and long hair (even if its fake).
PS…you may benefit from knowing I’m a LSLH chick myself and I STILL find the new “exotic women only” trend a DISGUSTING form of self-hatred.
“Instead of embracing the many different flay-vahs of black women, it seems like they dart straight for the chicks with long hair, fake bootays and long hair (even if its fake).”
who is this “they” you’re referring to?
They=Male Negrahs
I have some ideas about question #4. I’m half African and half American. Some might term me “African American” yet in my experience I tend to live in a different category nevertheless. The first seven years of my life were spent outside the US. The elementary schools (Washington DC) that I attended were in predominantly black neighborhoods. I attended two, one to finish out the few months of first grade where I pretty much did not interact much with other kids aside from tag at recess, the second where I’d spend 2nd through 5th grades.
At my second school, in my first couple years, I faced a lot of ridicule. I was ostracized by a lot of my peers. Teased, taunted, and called demeaning terms based on my foreign accent and origin. It mostly came to an end by 4th grade. By which time I’d been in many fights (at least once a week in 3rd grade, called to the counselor’s office about once a month in that time period), suspended once, while simultaneously being in the top 5 students in my class (I believe even extending it to the top 20, I was still the only guy).
Why did it stop? Well, most of my fights were with the school bullies who generally led in the teasing and name calling that a lot of people followed and a lot of those were actually due to me stepping in when they picked on others. However, I think the other part of that equation was the summer of hooked on phonics. I simply no longer seemed THAT different and even if I was, I’d earned a few friends and wasn’t the same lone target to be picked on.
So what does this have to do with the usage of saying openly racist s**t? Having been on the receiving end of it growing up and experiencing the pain it caused me, I have a personal distaste for that kind of language. I never accidentally drop the n-word. I can probably still count the number of times I’ve ever said or even written it on my fingers.
I sometimes think that having lived through that kind of experience, where you are the active target of hate speech – when it is something you have no prior experience or expectation engenders a particular view about using similar terms. I’m not going to pretend I know what people here have experienced. I’ve certainly experienced some f**ked up s**t in the south and a few times in DC and Pittsburgh from non-blacks, but I think there is a disconnect between what some of our older parents and grandparents went through and the lives we live now which makes it easy for people to use language they know is hurtful with impunity.
I disagree. I know several people who have been the victim of hate speech, yet still actively use the word in regular speech. I don’t think these incidents are mutually exclusive. Sure, the severity is different than it was for our parents generation, but your example is also very different from our parents generation as well. I think people are just people, not a monolith and do what they want. Some people can say the n word with no guilt attached, while others can’t.
if you don’t mind me asking, why were you in pittsburgh? (and what happened to you when you were there?)
lol, resolved to stopped lurking in 2011, so here goes….
1.) It seems like most dudes, not just the black ones, talk ish about chicks they’ve “tooted and booted.” Also, I don’t generally hear them talking about random black women, it’s a girl they’ve been involved with. And since they’re not talking about me, and the girl they’re referencing may very well be that way, I keep listening. When it’s a chick you don’t know, but know exists, it’s hard to judge…
2.) lol, we can dream too, can’t we? : D
3.) In 2011, what reason does a black man have to get married, if children are not in the picture? A dude can find a woman (given his looks, money, or talents maybe two or three) to cook for him, listen to him ad infinitum, accompany him to events, provide mind blowing sex, and have his children. And women are so confused that they’re doing all these things for men who have made no commitments to them in the name of “independence.” Smh. Really, why should a man get married — outside of religious reasons or tradition?
4.) I do this, recognize that I do it, and breathe a sigh of relief that nobody has challenged me…working on changing this in 2011 before I become George Allen : D
With all the foolery, single parent homes, high dropout rates and our dwindling importance as a minority (except as a cash cow) to the majority communities (white and Hispanic since I’m in TX), what are concrete steps we can take daily to move our community closer to Dr. King’s dream?
“what are concrete steps we can take daily to move our community closer to Dr. King’s dream?”
Exactly. We can ask and identify these dilemmas all day long, but how do we eliminate them?
I vote more blogs and discussions like VSB lol ….and of course, teaching and educating the next generation on more CULTURAL issues and dynamics daily, not just on Black holidays. Unfortunately, school cirriculums are teaching American History with occasional dabs of Black History here and there. African American History can very well be a school subject of its own.
“3.) In 2011, what reason does a black man have to get married, if children are not in the picture? A dude can find a woman (given his looks, money, or talents maybe two or three) to cook for him, listen to him ad infinitum, accompany him to events, provide mind blowing sex, and have his children. And women are so confused that they’re doing all these things for men who have made no commitments to them in the name of “independence.” Smh. Really, why should a man get married — outside of religious reasons or tradition?”
good question.
Your number 3 is real talk on an entirely different level that puts the onus not just on black men, but women too. We can’t fall into the “well, I guess I’ll be his baby mama” category and then be mad when he doesn’t wife us. That line of thinking will keep us losing every time. Now if you don’t want to get married or you don’t think that marriage is really that important, then go for it. But, if you want to be married, making sure that you don’t give all you can do the person you want without the commitment is a better way of making that happen.
“what are concrete steps we can take daily to move our community closer to Dr. King’s dream?”
IMO, one is to support black businesses, even when it hurts a little bit, even when we get *a little* extra attitude, even if we have to seek them out. Like someone mentioned above, black people’s money is a force. If we refocused it into black businesses that money will most likely be funnelled back into the black community in some form.
This is my answer for question one:
To simply put it, African-Americans have a much more common (subconscious) negative attitude toward each other. From my out-of-this-country perspective, this attitude is known across the world. A lack of respect for black women by black men in America is a legendary image implanted in all media around the world. While I was growing up in the states I notice black Men and Women had certain ‘disgust’ toward one another.
Personally, I blame the world for creating a structure where the men have been strip of their ability to raise their family, teach their kin, show pride and maturity toward the community that needs it. Having the women be treated as mules, their children strip and sold, their humanity crush turning their new role as tools and/or objects. It has been deeply ingrain within us that we are not ‘people’. That our dark skin is a curse by God for some evil we committed a long, long time ago.
US who have never been in a world where we were fully accepted, loved, treated as ‘people’ has now accepted it. You see women have lost respect toward black men for legit reasons. One of which is our lack of taking the thrown as a provider, protector and role model. In seeing our lack of ability to meet that standard we now only hate ourselves but hate women for their lack of understanding why we can’t be there.
To give two examples:
I know VSB does not like the movie Crash, but PLEASE hear me out. There was that one scene where the police officer (Matt Dillon) was molesting Terrance Howard’s wife (Thandie Newton) and Terrance did nothing, NOTHING. While you continue to watch as both characters slowly breakdown each other in the aftermath of the event. FOR WEEKS, the BSU on my campus argue and debated over why Terrance let that happen. BW was SO angry at BM for explaining that if he did anything it would have made it worst. Another time a commenter on VSB mention that Black women feel they can’t trust us to protect them or that we are equal to cops in their eyes. We as men are not there for them and they point it out. Instead of fixing ourselves up we push blame back on them. Blame them for what they are not doing as well, which is nicely reflected in our music……and our children.
TL:DR??
World hates blacks:World also think women are not equals.
Blacks also dislike other blacks (sometimes to gain acceptance from world)
Black+Woman=free range to disrespect and dehumanize.
BW reaches for BM to help: BM refuses (Sometime forcefully [Slavery and Jim Crow], other times chooses to [through Hip Hop culture and ignorance])
2. I’m not about the ‘personally traits’ part. Do have a example? *Pushes up glasses*
3. Black men are not seen as the most desirable man to become a husband and loving father. We are great to practice one’s sexual curiosity but, thanks to…..well everything we suck at being in stable relationships or even having the potential. You know how we are champ; statistically we are number one in prison rates, crime, bad heath, causing single parent households. Now mix that with how black men disrespect black women in public places, cheat, promote negative music, how we are represented on TV and match all this with the amount of fear we feel when we think about marrying the wrong one! Women are cruel and destroy everything about you for revenge if you wrong them, not mention its easy to send a black man to jail. Also I could be wrong about all the stereotypes that I said above, too bad those statements are fully expected y everyone starting at the age of 12.
4. Honestly, I think after the term been used for so long to hurt you. One internalizes that term and makes it theirs, thus taking away the hurtful power it once had. For example champ, you wear glasses. Me too, I’m going to assume you were called four-eyes and people tried to hurt your feelings because of it. After awhile (hearing every joke possible about the specs) you started not care, then develop jokes about the people who tease you, brought better-looking glasses, and own up to your astigmatism. You become immune to the hate and laugh at the ignorance of it. That’s why so many Jewish comedians have jokes about the holocaust and other term “Jew”. Best to take the power from it yourself.
“For example champ, you wear glasses. Me too, I’m going to assume you were called four-eyes and people tried to hurt your feelings because of it. After awhile (hearing every joke possible about the specs) you started not care, then develop jokes about the people who tease you, brought better-looking glasses, and own up to your astigmatism. You become immune to the hate and laugh at the ignorance of it.”
actually, i didn’t start wearing glasses until college, and by then wearing glasses was actually seen as a bit of a positive attribute. But, i was teased about the shape of my head pretty much all through school, and i went from being self-conscious about it (i never went anywhere without a hat) to just not caring at all.
O….my fault, hopefully you still understand what I mean when i comes to answer 4. Yeah, seem I was wrong about the Crash movie too lol
I appreciated the TL;DR, and I loved Crash, and although I could see the BW’s point of view, a BM who’s alive, is worth more to me than a chivalrous dead one.
And just to throw that out there, why do Blacks feel sad by what other Blacks do? I don’t think I have ever heard a single one of my 2520 friends see something utterly dumb that another 2520 did (On TV, Internet, etc) and actually feel sad for all 2520′s as a whole? Why do we as Black people internalize all the negatives that others do, and conversely all the positives? The positives I can get, but I don’t need to carry around with me the guilt of a bunch of dumbasses going in on the #blacksanta TT.
If we ever want to feel like there are white people out there embarrassing the hell out of other white people, please run your eyeballs over an episode of the following: Jersey Shore
Teen Mom
Damn Near any VH1 Reality Show
Because we are constantly grouped in the same category and ridiculed because of other blacks.
And just to throw that out there, why do Blacks feel sad by what other Blacks do? I don’t think I have ever heard a single one of my 2520 friends see something utterly dumb that another 2520 did (On TV, Internet, etc) and actually feel sad for all 2520?s as a whole? Why do we as Black people internalize all the negatives that others do, and conversely all the positives? The positives I can get, but I don’t need to carry around with me the guilt of a bunch of dumbasses going in on the #blacksanta TT.
Because this society treats black people like we are a monolith. Those white people you speak of see that white pregnant chick on teen mom as being almost as different from them as someone from a different race/ethnicity. On the other hand let that girl be black, and they would see her as being the same as most black folks regardless of location/income bracket/education. Knowing that, most black people cringe when they see someone black acting like a fool.
But the real question is, ARE Blacks a “monolith”? I’d say, for the most part, that YES, they are.
Vritually 100% of African Americans vote Democrat.
Virtually 100% of African Americans voted for Obama.
Virtually 100% of African Americans are Christian.
Virtually 100% of African Americans eat fried chicken.
See?
O.
“For the Most Part” and ” Virtually 100%” don’t go hand in hand, although I am having a hard time deciphering whether you are being serious or not. And to answer the question about being a monolith, I think @ VSB we have come to the conclusion that although we share many things, we aren’t just one entity, and shouldn’t be treated as such. We strive for collective success, but our experiences are still so very very different. No one else gets lumped together like that, and to do so is just another sort of marginalization. “You are all the same anyways, who cares?”
In either case, I think each of us can only be responsible for ourselves. I know like it was stated upthread, you want others to collectively do well, which is awesome, but at the end of the day, I am only responsible for how I am perceived. If someone want to use me as their marker for all young black women, congrats for them. I wish their was an easy answer, but there isn’t. Institutionalized racism is a mother.
Slimeyslope,
Do you deny what I just listed about Black folks? And if so, what countervailing evidence can you provide? Please explain?
O.
“Slimeyslope,” Really? You couldn’t just copy/paste my name?
#trife
Assuming for the sake of argument (two of which have to do with politics) that your “statistics” are true, you have chosen four categories and concluded that blacks are a monolith?
And just to throw that out there, why do Blacks feel sad by what other Blacks do?
I think that is a very valid question… I sometimes struggle to understand that feeling…
“And just to throw that out there, why do Blacks feel sad by what other Blacks do? I don’t think I have ever heard a single one of my 2520 friends see something utterly dumb that another 2520 did (On TV, Internet, etc) and actually feel sad for all 2520?s as a whole? Why do we as Black people internalize all the negatives that others do, and conversely all the positives?”
2 words: Institutional Racism. The country treats us as a whole instead of as individuals. It allows for a better canvas upon which to paint the dehumanization.
“I know VSB does not like the movie Crash, but PLEASE hear me out.”
LOL, where’d you get that from? I liked that movie.
yeah me too. Maybe some commenters hated it but….2/3 of VSB gives Crash a few thumbs up.
Well, I must have been in the same boat as Gundam, because I remember Crash being called “overrated”…
“what are concrete steps we can take daily to move our community closer to Dr. King’s dream?”
Exactly. We can ask and identify these dilemmas all day long, but how do we eliminate them?
I vote more blogs and discussions like VSB lol ….and of course, teaching and educating the next generation on more CULTURAL issues and dynamics daily, not just on Black holidays. Unfortunately, school cirriculums are teaching American History with occasional dabs of Black History here and there. African American History can very well be a school subject of its own.
“I vote more blogs and discussions like VSB lol ….and of course, teaching and educating the next generation on more CULTURAL issues and dynamics daily, not just on Black holidays.”
only problem is that the type of people who’d come to VSB to have these types of discussions usually aren’t the type who NEED to have these discussions
So the next question is why aren’t the VSB types aren’t going to where the folks NEED to be hearing all this? Uh oh, crimestop…
O.
Go and do what? Force them to read it? The issue is, the folks that NEED to hear this aren’t TRYING to hear it.
More positive blogs are great but most people i know don’t read blogs. I also have to admit (and please don’t interpret this as shots as it is more of an observation) I see a trend of Black women bashing within Black blogs. I appreciate this post from VSB and I do love this site, but I can’t ignore the fact that this same blog writers diss women as well calling us irrational, etc. I still laugh and love this place but it is what it is. In my opinion, we can help bring our community closer by word of mouth. We need to raise our children better by trying to build their self-esteem and help pad them to deal with the world. Also, we need to be better examples as children copy more of what they see WITHIN THE HOME than they do in the world. It’s going to sound corny but the children are our future so if we can change their method of thought, we might have some hope. The white man is no longer allowed to pump hate or open racism. Right now, we are our own worst enemy. It’s our state of mind that’s keeping us down, not our environment. The ghetto has no walls, yet we don’t leave. I know we can’t dream of what we can’t see so it leaves me skeptical on fast growth. It’s going to be slow and we have hundreds of years to go before we’re out of mental slavery.
You and O have a good point, for example, the people that debate the influence of hip hop are not usually the people that are the most influenced by it. How do we get the black “underclass” [a term created by others, but I think applicable] involved in the type of conversations we have here? How do we get them involved in change? [Are we really that involved in change ourselves or is it just good converstaion?]
I think the problem is that when some say “hip hop influences us”, others hear “hip hop is the only thing that influences us”. It’s a combination of house hold and wordly influences that make a human being. My point is, with all the negative stereotypes and history Blacks have in this country, why add to it with ignorant rap songs? I love hip hop, I dance to hip hops, and right now No Hands is the ring tone for my Mom. However I can’t deny that we are not doing much to help our negative portrayal. And the truth is, we aren’t involved in change. We’re more comfortable staying where we’re at. This can be said for people in general too.
Alright, I can’t sit this one out, I’m going to have to KRS One this thing, even though that’s not my intention.
To address 1.) Hip-Hop is much too vast and there are too many people involved (in tons of countries outside the US even), to make the generalization that this is something that is exclusive. Let me Quarterback this thing.
Hip-Hop reaching even back to the early 80′s, has always been about people doing one of two things. Describing their life situation in terms we all (hopefully) can understand with a passion on some level, or flashing, whether its how nice you are on the mic, how fresh your gear is, or how smooth you are with ladies, which was determined in part by the first two to some degree, how much is always changing. It didn’t really start speaking ill about any women until groups like NWA, Poison Clan, 2 Live Crew, and people like Kool G Rap, Too $hort, Master P, etc started sharing their experiences with the rest of us. At least to the point of us really noticing.
The issue is that we often forget that alot of what is “Winning” (and I use that term VERY lightly) on the “Radio” and other media, involves a handful of Rappers who aren’t people that you would necessarily expect to be stand up guys anyways lol. Alot of these guys are straight up assholes, real talk. I mean would you really expect the best judgment out of someone who calls themselves OJ Da Juiceman? What do you think his views on women are? Take a wild guess.
95% of Hip-Hop is NOT on the radio. 95%! Not exaggerating. And that’s just talking about the United States.The other 5% (may be even giving it too high a number) is what they try and shove in your eardrum and powermarket in media. That’s a total of 10 songs in rotation at the most, and I personally stay the hell away from it, sounds to similar anyways. So for me, 2010 was a fantastic year in Hip-Hop. All my favorite artist dropped albums all over the damn place. Hip-Hop isn’t even just limited to the Black Experience anymore. It’s become so much more than that. You got white guys in Europe spitting rhymes in German, People rapping in New Zealand…and it’s thriving!
The question is this, why are we allowing the group of people who do talk about women like dogs to make money off of us? I guarantee that if by some miracle tomorrow, talking about women like dogs was viewed as taboo as being a snitch, 30 Rappers would retire and the rest would either get their bars up, or break out the hammer pants. We enable it by not supporting our real dudes out there.
2.) This one’s short. Women, no matter where they’re from, tend to have alot of things they do that is completely unrealistic, but you are expected to deal with. For one, they tend to dress for other women, knowing that unless their lesbian, that makes absolutely no sense, and is not going to get you any closer to a relationship then a man blowing rent money on a set of rims for his BMW M3, just to be evicted out of a 1 bedroom apartment next month. But let us be with a good woman and have some weird hang up, it’ll be curtains for us real quick. That’s one of them…what do you call it? Double Standards.
3.) Having myself gotten married at 23, turning 28 in February, and personally knowing other black men who also got married before or around 25, I know that this is not always the case, but I do understand the statement. Marriage absolutely needs some sort of stability at some level to start as a base, and unfortunately, because our parents don’t always have the means to pass things down to us financially as black men and women, and our mother or father or both might STILL be working and renting, alot of people in our generation have to start from scratch just like they did. Even worse, with no more reliable financial advice from our parents then their parents gave them, but now in a world that isn’t even close to being the same as theirs. Alot of us find ourselves in the exact same position or worse. I’m not going to go and do the most and put my income on VSB, but I don’t want for anything, We’re doing fine lord willing.
4.) I can’t sit here and say that it’s right to tsay hurtful things about someone else, based on race or religion, but I do know this. The reason why we may slip into saying things that may otherwise be perceived as prejudice or racist, is because it has absolutely no significance over their life experience. Racism does not effect people who are not, or have not been oppressed. There’s not the same hurt in the actions. We shouldn’t do it, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t effect other people who don’t share that hurt the same way.
I absolutely like this whole comment.
Well said.
“Racism does not effect people who are not, or have not been oppressed. There’s not the same hurt in the actions. We shouldn’t do it, but at the end of the day, it doesn’t effect other people who don’t share that hurt the same way”
eh. i dont agree. this is like saying that men can’t be the victims of domestic violence, and it makes us seem, well, powerless.
also, while i agree with some of what you said about hip-hop, it doesn’t account for the fact that men who aren’t considered to be “assholes’—guys like common, talib, mos def, etc.—have been known to do the same thing.
“eh. i dont agree. this is like saying that men can’t be the victims of domestic violence, and it makes us seem, well, powerless. ”
Um…Im not sure racism can be compared to dmoestic abuse, because you always have the option to leave an abusive situation (even if its very difficult). The type of racism i’m talking about isn’t just prejudice remarks, its institutionalized. You basically would have to leave the country.
Secondly, Your gonna have to give us an example of a Talib Kweli or Mos Def song where he makes it his mission to put women down. I’m sure thats Rarer than sushi. Even so, is that his image? I don’t think that they are doing much damage compared to someone like the Ying Yang Twins or Lil Bootsie. I’m waiting for Rick Ross to release a song called “Brown Skin Lady” that isn’t about takin a dump on a white woman’s chest. lol.
“Marriage absolutely needs some sort of stability at some level to start as a base, and unfortunately, because our parents don’t always have the means to pass things down to us financially as black men and women, and our mother or father or both might STILL be working and renting, alot of people in our generation have to start from scratch just like they did. Even worse, with no more reliable financial advice from our parents then their parents gave them, but now in a world that isn’t even close to being the same as theirs. Alot of us find ourselves in the exact same position or worse.”
YES! We’re pushing up on 30 in age and 10 yrs of marriage. And in this time we’ve had to build EVERYTHING about our finances from the ground up with NO help from family (due to both their inability & unwillingness). But on the flip side, you have 2520s who get married IN college (like we did) whose families will not only encourage them, but also support them socially &&&& financially! Our culture views financial achievement as something to be secured prior to puttin a ring on it, while others see them as intertwined or even dependent upon each other (dowry anyone?). If we’re concerned about the marriage rate, we need to look at the marriage lessons.
dammit Champ!
Why’d you make me think?
1.) Blame Uncle Luke for making [Rap] accessible to everyone.
Especially non Black people, who love and are willing to pay great sums to people say bad things about their intimate relationships.
Before that Hip Hop had rules, that kind of excluded girls.
Then it all turned sort of gay, (like sports)
2.) I can’t tell you. I will say this, I’ll bed women that fit this description,
But I WILL NOT WAKE UP WITH ONE!
3.) See question #2
4.) I’m offering the “Pass” to anyone that’s recently had missiles explode with in walking distance of their homes and troops, patrol their hood, has been threatened with death for trying to read or lost their virginity to gang rape as a “Mystic cure” for HIV AIDS.
Because they can most likely identify with my ancestors’ plight better than I can.
They will never have to deal with the greatest concentration of potential mates being, women that prostitutes themselves in order to spend the price of an abortion on their hair EVERY WEEK, needing closets the size of an apartment, coveting VW Passats with a Bentley marquee on them (Continental GT) or validate their humanity and equality by siting their degrees and ability to seduce strangers into buying the trendiest liquors while working the cash register at Walmart, trading their Bridge Card allowances for things not related to food and worst yet, become angry and defensive with me, when in response to them proclaiming their DIVA-tude, I ask them to spit an aria, like Denyce Graves and Elmo.
yup!
’1.) Blame Uncle Luke for making [Rap] accessible to everyone.
Especially non Black people, who love and are willing to pay great sums to people say bad things about their intimate relationships.
Before that Hip Hop had rules, that kind of excluded girls.
Then it all turned sort of gay, (like sports)”
are you serious?
Sure I am
Okay Champ, I shouldn’t say gay, It’s not that late night sports oriented soap opera from a few years back.
I should say homosexual in that the bulk of the participants are all the same gender.
Before Luke you had what?..3 or 4 women rap artists
And one of them was British. I think most of them were named Chante.
maybe two girl DJs (Both being Spindarella)
1 Latin chick break dancin’
0 women of note taggin’
Yet, when you account for the number of Black men that get their “Hip Hop” music from legit outlets and not bootleg or directly from the source, Roughly 50,000 copies of anything. You’ve got to admit the crap that makes it to the top of the charts is generally not in your crate of regular rotation.
Maybe I should have made note of Dre taking off the lip gloss and sequin. That may have had an effect on the whole thing.
But like sports, with the masses demanding that
Professional athletes dress and behave in socially acceptable ways, because they are “role models”, the marketing, salaries and rules have changed so dramatically that the general perception of the entire industry is skewed towards the belief that these individuals are more supposed to be more than mindless entertainment, in that what sells the most sounds like the Barney “Clean up” song or is filled with woman hating lyrics and the kind of content that makes one wonder, why aren’t more Black kids going Columbine.
And we gravitate towards things with no real purpose. Like spinning wheels, front lace wigs and misogynistic looping refrains in our “music”..
-Why do we think integrating with White folks will fix sh*t?
-How come we Black folks don’t like to own anything? It seems like a disproportionate amnt of barely English speaking immigrants(mainly from Asia) own businesses within Blk communities. Are we really too lazy to do the same or are these immigrant folks getting some kinda help?
-Even if their is a legitimate argument for White people owing us anything, why do you believe they’re EVER actually going to give it to us? If you don’t believe this, why bring it up?
-Why do some Black women accuse the White media of setting a European standard of beauty that makes them appear less attractive, but makes Black men seem more attractive?? How are we exempt from this supposed Euro standard brainwashing societies perception of beauty?
-Why do Black chicks curse others for being color-struck and then go on to state how much they prefer chocolate brothas? Are light skin people not Black too?
-Why don’t Black men stick around? Don’t you think your own life would of been better growing up with two parents(yes, I am assuming you only had one)? How can you repeat the cycle with a guilt free conscience?
-Why do you believe Obama’s blackness makes him a good president? Wouldn’t Africa be paradise if this was true?
-Birth control. Is it really that hard of a concept?
Hope these questions don’t sound as aggressive, as they did when I was reading them back…
#DEAD…..You went OFF! lol…..and I’m sorry but you hopes for lack of aggression failed.I agree with everything except ….
“Why do you believe Obama’s blackness makes him a good president? Wouldn’t Africa be paradise if this was true? ”
Uh. Not exactly.
“I agree with everything except ….
“Why do you believe Obama’s blackness makes him a good president? Wouldn’t Africa be paradise if this was true? ””
Keep in mind that even though it may appear as if I am giving my personal opinion within the I question, I’m not. Like at all. I do believe that the majority of us support Obama bc
1)Bc he’s a Democrat 2)Bc he’s is Black. In that order.
I don’t think White media makes Black men seem attractive in the sense of beauty. it makes them seem virile and good for sex. Virile and attractiveness are not the same thing, though somewhat related. Black men being sex machines has been your one trick pony for centuries, and goes back to before slavery days. If your argument were true in regards to beauty, we’d think Brad Pitt was fugly, but we don’t. Even if we did…who cares? The issue is that for women, beauty matters, hence why we get bent out of shape over this. You guys don’t care if people see you as sex machines. In fact, I get the feeling that you embrace the mandingo warrior (myth).
I think I might agree with this.
@Liz “You guys don’t care if people see you as sex machines. In fact, I get the feeling that you embrace the mandingo warrior (myth).”
Is it gay of me to be bothered at the thought of being perceived as merely a sexual object? Strangely I wouldn’t mind if a Black women thought of me as her mandigo warrior, though when it comes to non-blk chicks I just find it kinda… weird.
My sentiments exactly.
“Is it gay of me to be bothered at the thought of being perceived as merely a sexual object?”
Your peers may think so, which is what makes this whole thing so difficult to grasp for Black folks, as a whole. In my opinion, ya’ll should be just as outraged at the fetishizing as Black women are when White men do it to us.
No it’s not gay. It’s just reasonable. I just try to be my woman’s mandingo warrior. The rest of the women black or others aren’t a factor in my equation. As long as her toes are curled then I’ve done [that part] of my job.
Exactly.
It’s not gay, and yes you should be bothered by it. I’m hoping more Black men will be more cognizant of that dialogue.
@Liz
“You guys don’t care if people see you as sex machines. In fact, I get the feeling that you embrace the mandingo warrior (myth).”
Some of us actually do embrace this which just makes us seem as if we’re only good for that one thing. I’m officially starting the “I am not my d**k campaign.” Please don’t confuse this with my “I am a d**k campaign.”
LOL!
Hung by Scott Poulson-Bryant is a good book about the whole mandingo warrior myth.
Ha!!!
I might have to check that out some day. Thanks for the heads up.
“Hung by Scott Poulson-Bryant is a good book about the whole mandingo warrior myth”
i keep hearing about this book. i might have to pick it up at borders someday.
actually, forget that. the title makes it sound like more of an online purchase, lol
“-Why do Black chicks curse others for being color-struck and then go on to state how much they prefer chocolate brothas? Are light skin people not Black too?”
The above is a FANTASTIC question. Because often, some black women say the above with the mentality that it “looks better” than saying the opposite. When actually, it’s further perpetuating the colorism divide that they seem to disapprove of.
Cheekie,
Try this: because in virtually every culture and clime and in every era known to Mankind, lighter skinned females are more preferable than darker skinned ones, by males. Not a PC thing to say, but there it is. And this is a very sore point of contention for Sistas, particularly those darker than a brown paper bag to stomach, but there it is. They will just have to learn to live with it, much like short Men have to live with the fact that Women have been documented to prefer taller Men, even if said Men had prior criminal records and the shorter guys were among the most powerful Men in the US Gov’t, like Robert Reich. No, it’s not fair, but then no one said Life was or ever will be.
I’m just sayin’.
Holla back
O.
Maybe they should have to learn to live with it(for now), but keep in mind that it doesn’t necessarily mean it can’t change. Enough societies around the world prefer slimmer figures on women for someone to believe this attraction is an inherent. However, in the African country of Mauritania, fat women are the standard of beauty. In Europe the Victorians would swallow arsenic to lighten their skin back in the day, now many White Americans appreciate the tan look. A Black man might find a women to be attractive bc her skin is light, whole an Indian man can look at the same women and view her as unattractive bc she is dark. Perceptions of beauty can change. I am not sure if you were insinuating preference for lighter skin is an inherited trait, but it does seem as if correlations equal causation in your mind.
Hi iRock,
Alrighty then – please point to me where the Mauritanian ideal of beauty is universal or even near it? Please point out to me the many instances where Grace Jones black Sistas were swooned over? I’ll wait.
Like I said above, we wouldn’t be having this discussion if we swapped out the skintone Black Women debate with the short guy one; no one would spend more then a few minutes on it because Men especially know, understand and, here’s the keyword iRock, ACCEPT the world as it is, on its terms. And in that world, Women prefer taller to shorter Men, when they have the chance to choose, which is like 90% of the time. Guys who are shorter aren’t seen crying into their beer the way darkskinned Sistas are. They get on with it,
Said Sistas must learn to do the same.
*shrugs*
O.
Just had to dip in and say you’re on fire today mayne. I’m preparing for my Blog return…soon.
Bond.
“Like I said above, we wouldn’t be having this discussion if we swapped out the skintone Black Women debate with the short guy one; no one would spend more then a few minutes on it because Men especially know, understand and, here’s the keyword iRock, ACCEPT the world as it is, on its terms.”
Or because being “short” isn’t deeply rooted in years of oppression? Not saying colorism is a personal problem of MINE, but I do understand why it’s not simple thing to “get over” or “accept.” The whole Light-skinned/dark-skinned aspect is not simply about beauty standards, it’s far more complex than that. Sure you can write off everyone as it “just being their type” (and that can very well be the case… in some cases) which is far easier than actually digging into the psychological damage of self-image that oppression has done to our people.
Chalking it up to “that’s just the way it is” seems like the very escapism you questioned higher-up in the list of comments.
Oh, and please let us not forget that while you may HEAR about women lamenting more (or you’re just not looking hard enough), women aren’t the only ones with color complexes.
Example #5,407 of The Eternal Solipsism Of THe Female Mind, anyone?
Does anyone honestly believe what this lass just said? OK, so when was the last time you heard of a bunch of Brothas wringing their hands over their skintones?
I’ll wait…
O.
O,
“Obama bringin light-skint brothas back!”, anyone?
Preach!!!
Really important thoughts here, Champ, and thanks for using this platform as a way to probe into oft-overlooked issues.
I think modern day hiphop is reflective of a maturation process African American culture is undergoing. I think hiphop details these changes from the perspective of the most influential scribes of the time. In the 1980s black communities were ravaged by gangs, drugs, gun violence, AIDS and broad urban, inner-city hopelessness. We heard a lot of gangsta rap from those who would consider themselves gangstas. But there was a power shift towards more intellectual hiphop in the early 90s. Mindful that the African American community was no monolith, regional differences (South [FL, GA, TX], Midwest, West Coast, NY) became more obvious. As we moved into the mid and late 90s with the advent of the hiphop mogul, the African American experience shifted from being defensive and critical, to celebratory and self-congratulatory.
I won’t continue to date but the thread seems clear: the African American narrative, as told through hiphop, is driven by men. Which is why having more women in hiphop is critically important. The United States Congress was hostile towards black elected officials before Adam Clayton Powell shook things up. They were similarly hostile to female members, being the good ol boys club that it was.
My point is that in heavily male institutions there is a greater likelihood of misogyny, particularly because of the lifestyle. And the women they do select to be around them they do not respect. So, that’s my opinion why this is the case.
“I won’t continue to date but the thread seems clear: the African American narrative, as told through hiphop, is driven by men. Which is why having more women in hiphop is critically important.”
i don’t disagree with this, but the latent feeling behind it—men will basically act like savages if their aren’t any women around to civilize us—is a bit disturbing.
It is extremely disturbing, but I don’t think “men will basically act like savages without women around” is the issue. I think that THOSE men latch onto music’s groupie culture. We need more women not to civilize the rap industry, but to challenge us to think differently about how successful and wealthy men should treat women. How do successful and wealthy women treat men?
Well… this may come as a surprise to many of you, but the fact of the matter is that most, if not all n***as hate THEMSELVES. So, in their mind, why should they respect or care about a black woman (or any woman for that matter). Self hatred is a mf’er huh? But let’s not just limit this to the Wacka Flockas of the world. How about the self hatred amongst the “talented tenth.” Light Skin vs Dark Skin anyone? Lookin at your own short comings is even more of a mf’er. Peace ems.
you are rude and blunt but I like ya sight. I don’t really agree but that is another story altogether.
And being associated with the term black doesn’t help when black used in other contexts typically is the worst designation you could give something.
paraphrasing MLK Jr.
#3 historically marriage had to do more with social status, acquiring a help mate, procreation and to cover up the fact that you got a lady pregnant NOT about love, finding a soul mate. from my ethnic/cultural background: singleness (especially after you have finished your education, employed and in your mid/late 20s) is frowned upon, and a man is not considered a full adult among elder males until he is married. he gets respect for the fast car, nice apartment and job but point is, he doesn’t head his OWN household.
but looking at it from the African- American (and generally speaking black men in America period) perspective: marriage does not deter one from being successful, seen as a valued member of society; marriage is a huge responsibility (read: burden and sacrifice they cannot comprehend in hopes of realising their adolescent fantasies of f*cking all the girls in the world like their favourite rappers do) involving being *everything* to this woman who’s demanding/nagging/depreciating in physical appearance; and there’s effective birth control if you choose to use it so you can enjoy the company of a nice lady and there’s no pressure to wife her.
NB the views above are somebody’s out there but sweeping generalizations if you take offence!
so i put this question to my 21-yr old brother (black, multi-cultural kid, can read lol), he said: i don’t do sh*t unless it’s constructive, self-rewarding or get’s you to shut up long enough for me to eat my food in peace!
maybe we are marketing the whole marriage to black men wrong?
“#3 historically marriage had to do more with social status, acquiring a help mate, procreation and to cover up the fact that you got a lady pregnant NOT about love, finding a soul mate. from my ethnic/cultural background: singleness (especially after you have finished your education, employed and in your mid/late 20s) is frowned upon, and a man is not considered a full adult among elder males until he is married. he gets respect for the fast car, nice apartment and job but point is, he doesn’t head his OWN household.”
I agree! What really irks me is how we are looking at a lack of desire for commitment as a “flawed trait” in “blacks”. This is a universal issue. We have BF and GFs as the test drive. The essence of love is not about endurance…it’s about borrowing and receiving to explore the multi-facetedness and complexities of love. To evolve based on change…not sameness. People marriage because they figure that things won’t change. While they verbalize that they understand (conceptualize)….experience is totally different. Just because the West Indians and Arabs arrange their marriages doesn’t make them mature or evolved – these young couples figure out “well, we can’t seperate now, or else our families will disown us; let’s see where it goes. If it don’t work, we will force ourselves to make it work for the sake of the family” <<That's not honest. We force ourselves to believe that commitment and obligation is God's will. That doing the things our hearts do NOT desire is what makes us grow. Commitment does not EQUAL MATURITY! We are alive for the human experience – not solely to establish ourselves only to settle down, reproduce, and raise a family. Thats the best God can do for us?! Come on! I have a soul ya know? (This is not directed at you KBBN – just a remidner). And my soul does have it's own purpose; soul mating is not priority, it is an experience like any other. As self centered as it may appear, humans exist to experience who they are – to "be" something – rather than DO something. How many people I support, as a man, does not constitute maturity. Just because I raise kids, finance a home, and keep my wife happy and entertained does not birth the statement: I am a child of God! I am doing exactly what He wills (even though I am, just a smaller scale). I'm more mature than most of the married folk out there that have these "compliments" in their lives. Our view of what's mature, in the human experience, needs to extend outside of "race, gender, actions, age, acquisitions, idioms, and reputation". <<<these are all material/corporeal things
I personally don't agree with the institutionalized version of marriage. The way that society depicts marriage lacks the romance and naturalistic-feel to it. The word "love" is thrown in the mix; however, "commitment" and "obligation" are a means to acheive a "desired result". I wonder if the black community understands what a "contract/covenant" is. <<< There are so many pains that come with this. "Oh but John the joys that comes with it are heavenly!" Not when the excitement fades, as you struggle to reignite what was obviously just a short term experience. But we lie to ourselves, believing that it supposed to be a stick of Big Red…let it last a lil longer. Some are successful, but the divorce rate is higher this decade. Characters change. Priorities change. Views change.
When you are obligated to something, it implies that you CANNOT change your mind nor heart IF the conditions of the contract change. I've been under 4 contracts in my life (work related and monogamous) and let me tell you…when you CAN'T escape the negativity that wasn't forecasted in the contract….it's very counterproductive. But the cliche that bubbles from these experiences: hey…it made you stronger right? Sure, 4 heartbreaks later….and several lies after.
Marriage feels like a trap. It's all about security nowadays. Financial security. Emotional security. Sexual and physical security. Social security. Spiritual security.
I'm a black divorcee, at age 26 (after 3 years of commitment)….I'm not saying my experience with love is the epitome, nor is it law. But from what I gathered, my views of marriage were not in favor of what I truly desire out of life. I did it because it "seemed like the right thing to do, since I loved her; I didnt wanna lose her". I'm not prepared to marry, but I am fit to do so; anyone can marry…but it requires a mastery of love (mastery of self) to endure. We should not PRESSURE people into marriage, nor deceive them into beliving that longetivity equals success in marriage until they know themselves. Choose quality over duration. Change your vows from "for better or worse, til death do us part" – THAT IS NOT LOVE! "I will stay even if I'm not HAPPY?" That's not being true to yourself.
We should not deceive people into believing that marriage is the final and ultimate destination for love. And I strongly believe that SOME black men recognize that marriage does not support the experience that makes the statement "love is free". And furthermore, that they dont know themselves well enough to make a long term declaration of love to ONE person. Would you rather me lie to please you or tell the truth and gain your respect? Women (not just blacks – we are ALL HUMAN!)….can we slow things down. Tomorrow isnt promised but forever is!
Spiritual unions are awesome, contractual obligations depend on your "goals"
“from my ethnic/cultural background: singleness (especially after you have finished your education, employed and in your mid/late 20s) is frowned upon, and a man is not considered a full adult among elder males until he is married. he gets respect for the fast car, nice apartment and job but point is, he doesn’t head his OWN household.”
i agree that non-blacks tend to put more pressure on themselves to get married. i think i even wrote about it a few months ago
The weight of the World on their backs and chips on their shoulders, self-deprecating thoughts inside and derisive insults from the outside. Tag that with crooked police and very public cases of injustice and the grounds for an epidemic of Psychological complexes became extremely fertile.
Am I saying every black man and woman suffers? Absolutely not. There are things that would interfere with the uptake of the complex like both parents or a really strong mother or being well off.
See I’m associating the greatest proportion of the plagues in the Black community with having lower Socioeconomic backgrounds. Maybe, if there was a way to supplant the old system and reset the social caste system we have then we could see rapid change. But as things are, I cannot even see it reasonable to blame whites or anybody else for the way they act with jobs and social constitutions that force equality because if I was in that position, My desire for Blacks to do better in society is greater than my want of equality. So if I ever own a business I’m hiring Black. And thats pretty much the most I can do.
1. I’ve always struggled with this one because my littlest big sister put me onto hip hop. I remember reading a rap mag when is was little and Biz Markie was featured surrounded by a gaggle of bikini bound sisters. My sis asked why did I think thay rappers felt that they needed to surround themselves with girls. (She was testing me with the jab.) I told her that I didn’t know but I asked why did the women think it was ok to pose for the pictures? I still don’t know the answers to these two questions.
Years later my sis, like many in the south developed an affinity for bass music, a sub-genre of hip hop that actively made women into objects just like the rest of hip hop. It confused me but I confuse easy.
I honestly don’t think a man can opine about women’s worthlessness on wax and truly respect the women in his life. Even if 95% of a cat respects women, that 5% of disrespect is there. Same thing with women saying “He’s not talking about me!” When misogynist lyrics are being performed are played. Yes, he is talking to you! Your cousin, and your auntie too!
2. *Stroking my goatee* Methinks this query is a minefield. Verily! I’m not sure what personality traits I’m being asked to speak on. I’m not scared, just seems like a damn trap.
3. The black men not getting married thing has less to do with options and more of a lack of a road map.
Many of us don’t have the daddy road map to follow getting papers on a woman we love. Some of us may just not be s**t. Some may not want to get married. Being someone’s Mister sounds awesome to me but that ish may not sound like the move to my brethren.
4. My answer to this that The American Negro loves to keep score. On racial slights, craps… everything! “I’ve been called n***er so long, so you’re automatically a p***erwood!” That’s my take on it. Honestly, I don’t want the pass, but I will take my equality with a cherry coke and super-size it please. I’m just a man so treat me with all of the respect that entails.
3. The black men not getting married thing has less to do with options and more of a lack of a road map.
Bingo! I think marriage is not advertised as a block on which to build success… sadly.
“My answer to this that The American Negro loves to keep score.”
And with that, whatever black people are doing today ain’t gonna add up to half of what was done to us so why should we feel bad about it in the slightest? The racisim and colorism we show each other is the worst of it all anyway. AND just when it’s our turn to get gully, racism is becoming cliche so we can’t even get our licks in. I’m done with the black on black racism, but when Chris Rock says “cracker a$$ cracker” that sh*t is hilarious and I’ma laugh til I get my 40 acres.
Many of us don’t have the daddy road map to follow getting papers on a woman we love. Some of us may just not be s**t. Some may not want to get married. Being someone’s Mister sounds awesome to me but that ish may not sound like the move to my brethren.
My dad was married and divorced three times. I’ll take a pass on that marriage thing.
That was a reply to Wu’s comment above.
Good morning Champ, VSB folk,
Good post you got here! Can’t say I saw the program to which you are referring, but I am very familiar with its focus and tone, and I agree, such shows always seem to come off as deeply contrived or at the very least, labored. I spend a great deal of time in what some have come to call the “Manosphere” – a gaggle of blogs, forums and websites that focus on Men’s issues and concerns, and is virtually all White. In said “sphere”, Race is discussed a lot, and usually not in a good way, ie, a way that is favorable to African Americans. This is done because many in the Manosphere, feel that they have been cowed into silence about what they truly feel about Race and Black people in particular; that even legitimate criticism that they may have is looked upon, by Blacks and many Whites alike, as racist. As you are very familiar with the blogsite Roissy in DC, I am sure you get some sense of what I’m talking about here.
I think what these denizens of the Manosphere want to openly tackle and discuss, is the whys and wherefores of, for lack of a better way of putting this, “Black Pathology” – like, why do Black people have babies out of wedlock at such high rates? Why are Blacks so loud, aggressive, uncivil (indeed, uncivilized?) – both Male, and especially Female? Why must Affirmative Action persist in our time, when there are the Barack Obamas of the world? And speaking of Obama, why are Blacks from other areas of the world, like parts of Africa and the Carribbean, act so differently from African Americans – and achieve at much higher rates? Why do African Americans do so poorly in school, in spite of exhorbitant expenditures per student (like Washington DC and Newark, for example) and even when controlling for socioeconomic status of the parents (like the John Ogbu Shaker Heights study)? Why can’t African Americans drop the ghetto culture and fully assimilate into the American way of life – including names, religion, mannerisms and work ethic? Why is it that every Black country languishes in Third World status? And why can’t we have honest discussions about Race and Intelligence, with a view toward crafting public policy that reflects the truth about these things? Why do Blacks commit violent crime at such high rates – including rape of White Women?
These and other questions/issues are frequently discussed in the Manosphere. And whether we like the questions or not, I think if we’re willing to be honest, the questions do have some legitimacy to them.
Now, in response to the questions you posed:
1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?
O: Because Black Americans are in a unique place on the scale of human history, much in the same way that America itself is in a unique spot on said scale. But I have an even better question that never seems to get any facetime among Hip Hop’s critics:
Is ANY of what so many rappers are saying about Black Women, TRUE? Forget for the moment that it may be airing dirty laundry, or that its crudely put accross and so forth – is what the rappers saying, at rock bottom, have ANY shred of merit to it? You see, like the White Manosphere’s concerns about “keepin’ it real” along race discussion lines, I think the answer to this question, as much as we don’t like to admit it, is YES, there IS indeed much truth to what the rappers are saying. And if that’s true, the only logical conclusion has to be, that we all, and Sistas in particular, has to honestly confront that. I mean, if we’re really interested in the truth and actually addressing problems…
2. Why are African-American women the only women on the planet where a good many of them (not all, of course. but enough to matter) expect men to be attracted to certain personality traits that are the complete antithesis of what most men are attracted to?
O: See first response above. Also, see my article here (http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/60053), which makes the case in a most cogent way, that African American Women have greatly benefitted from two of the world’s most significant post-WW2 era civil movements known to Mankind. That colors things considerably (to say nothing of the unique place Slavery and Jim Crow put Black folks in to begin with, and had deeply profound effects on the way we get on with each other in a romantic and sexual sense), and hence the impetus for your question.
3. Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?
O: Simple: GAME. Black Men have been noted for having more broad-based sexual appeal than other groups of Men on balance, and thus do not need to do what other Men do in order to secure feminine company and sexual favors. We don’t get married as much because we don’t have to. Just anyone else does what they do. *shrugs* Nor is this likely to change anytime soon, in large part because far too many Sistas really enjoy the Magic Stick too much to get them to close their legs unto a Bruh puts a ring on it…
4. Our history in this country has given us a bit of a “they’ve been oppressed, so it’s ok for them to do and say openly racist sh*t” pass. And, we’re not particularly shy about using it, even in jest (myself included). Anyway, we especially know how hurtful racially-charged insults and comments can be, but we continue to do it. Why?
O: Because again, we are unusual in the annalls of human history, and as such we do things that other people prior to us didn’t even give much thought to. Although it is my belief that Race is very much a biological reality, it wasn’t explicitly recognized as a social one until relatively recently in Human history. Remember Champ, that Psychology itself isn’t a century old, and so we’re still attempting to understand the Human mind, and why we act as we do. Adopting terms like “Nigger” and making it our own has a deep psychological component to it that I don’t think any of us has really sat down to consider. We should.
At The Obsidian Files: Post-”Hate On MLK Day” Thoughts & Analysis
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/60568
Holla back
O.
Why are Blacks so loud, aggressive, uncivil (indeed, uncivilized?) – both Male, and especially Female?
-I don’t believe this. This question should read more like, “Why are ghetto ppl so loud, uncivil,…” Personally I believe it’s all about income. Poor people all over the world are stereotyped as having low class for a reason. Unfortunately some of us have incorporated stereotypical “poor mannerisms” into our culture bc they get the two confused.
Why must Affirmative Action persist in our time, when there are the Barack Obamas of the world?
-Many people feel that bc numerous studies and everyday observations suggest that racial profiling in the work place still persist, that Affirmative Action is needed for Blk folks to survive in this country. Personally I believe if we feel discriminated against it would make more sense to create our own jobs and hire ppl from our own.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091015163601.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090225132241.htm
http://www.uga.edu/columns/061002/news-skintone.html
Why do African Americans do so poorly in school, in spite of exhorbitant expenditures per student (like Washington DC and Newark, for example) and even when controlling for socioeconomic status of the parents (like the John Ogbu Shaker Heights study)?
-”why do Black people have babies out of wedlock at such high rates? “… This has a LOT to do with it, but I honestly don’t have the answer for that one.
Why can’t African Americans drop the ghetto culture and fully assimilate into the American way of life – including names, religion, mannerisms and work ethic?
-Ghetto culture is a sub-culture and not the only form of Black culture. I have a better question. Why can’t everybody else conform to us?
Why is it that every Black country languishes in Third World status?
-This is simply not true. For instance, Barbados is the 3rd most developed country in the Western Hemisphere. However, many Blk nations are poor. This has to do with 1)Colonialism. Whether White ppl admit it or not. 2)Cold war politics 3)Corruption 4)Multinational corporations and international banking institutions like the IMF and World Bank have exploit the sh*t out of the 3rd world. I’d suggest readin up on some John Pilger, Noam Chomsky, and others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_3K1PCZHE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0JCJ4pIFEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrynBzUpyag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdYwAXZh0ME
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jan/17/patrice-lumumba-50th-anniversary-assassination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVRoWxFB1s
Their is a sh*t load of information you can read/watch on this. The first video I posted is the shortest/best explanation of this exploitative system. John Pilger’s, “The New Rulers of the World” is probably the best doc on how Multi-corps & Intl Banks do their evil. I didn’t really believe any of this until my college history teacher confirmed it in a long discussion. This sh*t is NO JOKE. It’s real. Really interesting(and depressing) stuff.
And why can’t we have honest discussions about Race and Intelligence, with a view toward crafting public policy that reflects the truth about these things?
-I don’t mind talking about it. Most of the studies suggest it’s more environmental than inherent. First of all, millions of Blks have higher IQs than your avg White. Using an individually inherited trait and applying it to an entire group of people is nonsense. The 15pt racial IQ gap between blks and whites is no different than the same IQ gap between 1930 white Americans and today’s white Americans. The stigmatized Burakumin of Japan are the same race/ethnicity as majority Japanese. They are a SOCIAL minority & yet their is an IQ gap of 15pts between them & majority Japanese. Your height is an inherited trait, but the average height of today is significantly taller than the near past!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
pg. 317-319(best info)
http://books.google.com/books?id=QS_sw7AfVDMC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=Burakumin+IQ&source=bl&ots=2JsFXRkI2U&sig=Fd25KTQOS5jLQj7t4E97Banc7Ow&hl=en&ei=BXwcTNujLIT7lwellMT2DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Burakumin%20IQ&f=false
pg . 270-273(best info)
http://books.google.com/books?id=t9OdPPLIgMAC&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=Burakumin+IQ&source=bl&ots=Llw-ER932p&sig=BQxJaLq4zZ73fpp6h_RPqv-H14c&hl=en&ei=BXwcTNujLIT7lwellMT2DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Burakumin%20IQ&f=false
In Table 1- Enrollments by color/race at all levels of schooling – Brazil – 2000 at the 2nd to last page you can see that Blk and Pardo(brown/Mulatto) Brazilians have similar education rates clearly unequal to their White Brazilian counterparts. Yet, genetic studies show Blk Brazilians are only 55%African and 35-40% Euro on avg, Pardos are more Euro than African, and Whites are about 80%Euro, 10% Afro, & 10%Amerindian. Why so much racial inequality in Brazil among non-Whites(Blks & Pardos) and Whites if the non-Whites are Whiter less pure than African Americans? I believe that suggesting racism is connected to this when their are gaps among so many traditionally oppressed minorities around the world.
http://congreso.us.es/cesrea/OKpapers/25%20Rosemary%20DORE%20e%20MOREIRA%20Black%20Movement%20and%20Education%20Brazil.pdf
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/11/091102_brazil_black_ap.shtml
Why do Blacks commit violent crime at such high rates – including rape of White Women?
-The same reason why the Maoris of New Zealand, Israeli Arabs, Muslims in Europe, Australian Aborigines, and US/Canadian Amerindians do. And where are these CREDIBLE statistics saying Blks rape so many White women?
iRock,
Well, well, well! an intrepid soul you most certainly are! Glad to see ya. Let’s have at it:
The rape stats are easily gleaned from the DOJ and FBI studies and surverys. You can also check in with Hacker’s Two Nations.
I’m very familiar with Nesbitt and other’s work, and of course, environment always plays a role, but we seem to keep trying to get away from the role that heredity plays as well. Simply put, everyone won’t be Einsteins, and that’s under the best of circumstances. And I don’t see simply acknowledging this fact of life spells doom for Black folk. I mean, did King’s work have less merit because Black folk may not be as smart as Whites? I don’t think so.
What does being poor have to do with being patently uncouth and aggressive? And how does this have to do with being female? The bottomline is that Black people, as a whole, are seen in this way, and if that isn’t the truth, then why are the Buppies fighting harder to quell such a stereotype?
Why is there such a massive dropout rate in highschools, especially among Black males? We’re not talking teaching these kids to split the atom here, iRock – we’re talking about getting through highschool. What is up with the fact that even the offspring of solidly middle class Black folk do worse on tests than the poorest Asians and Whites? What is up with that?
I appreciate all the links you posted, but come on. Let’s have a straight up conversation here, hmm?
Apply Occam’s Razor instead of a butterknife.
O.
I’m very familiar with Nesbitt and other’s work, and of course, environment always plays a role, but we seem to keep trying to get away from the role that heredity plays as well. Simply put, everyone won’t be Einsteins, and that’s under the best of circumstances. And I don’t see simply acknowledging this fact of life spells doom for Black folk. I mean, did King’s work have less merit because Black folk may not be as smart as Whites? I don’t think so.
-I acknowledge the fact that heredity plays a role in individual intelligence. We were discussing GROUP intelligence and I explained why I believe it’s more of an environmental. I know about the subject of intelligence in general and not just race & intelligence. I get my information from Psychology books and not just racist propaganda sites. If you want to debate individual studies like why Burakumin score lower on IQ test than majority Japanese when they are the same race/ethnicity or why Blk/Pardo Brazilians have less educational equality than Whites despite how Euro their ancestry is than I’d be glad to take you on. Correlations do nothing for me. If you disagree than that is your opinion. The evidence I have viewed says otherwise
What does being poor have to do with being patently uncouth and aggressive?
-Poor people tend to have those qualities more than others. I mean if you understand terms like like “low class” and how they are used to denote behavior as well as wealth than it shouldn’t be too hard to understand.
Why is there such a massive dropout rate in highschools, especially among Black males? We’re not talking teaching these kids to split the atom here, iRock – we’re talking about getting through highschool. What is up with the fact that even the offspring of solidly middle class Black folk do worse on tests than the poorest Asians and Whites? What is up with that?
-It’s a combination of socioeconomic conditions and cultural values. Scarr & Weinberg did a study where they looked at the IQ scores of Blk children adopted by highly educated White families who were above avg in occupational status & income(1989). These children outscored the avg scores of both Blks & Whites. An Arizona State University study by Elsie Moore looked at blk and mixed children adopted by middle-class families, either black or white. Children adopted by white families had I.Q.’s 13 points higher than those of children adopted by black families. This pretty much shows that even middle-class blk fams have different cultural attitudes when it comes to education.
The bottomline is that Black people, as a whole, are seen in this way, and if that isn’t the truth, then why are the Buppies fighting harder to quell such a stereotype?
-How we are seen does not always equal truth. Let me give you an example. One horrible stereotype about Blks is that we are an AIDS infested people. Racist White people love to point out we our 8x’s more likely to catch HIV/AIDS. According? to the CDC approx. 500,000 black Americans are living with HIV/AIDS in the US. Thats out of a population of about 40million which means less than 1%(0.0125). An epidemic is defined as 1% or higher by the CDC. However, the fact that our overall rate is low does not matter to racist/prejudice folk. They are just fine judging us by approx. 0.0125% of our pop. I don’t believe this behavior is widespread in our community, just a significant enuff minority to make it a stereotype.
Hi iRock,
Replies below:
-I acknowledge the fact that heredity plays a role in individual intelligence. We were discussing GROUP intelligence and I explained why I believe it’s more of an environmental. I know about the subject of intelligence in general and not just race & intelligence. I get my information from Psychology books and not just racist propaganda sites. If you want to debate individual studies like why Burakumin score lower on IQ test than majority Japanese when they are the same race/ethnicity or why Blk/Pardo Brazilians have less educational equality than Whites despite how Euro their ancestry is than I’d be glad to take you on. Correlations do nothing for me. If you disagree than that is your opinion. The evidence I have viewed says otherwise.
O: What about some evidence that actually speaks to the matter at hand, which is African Americans. What about John Ogbu’s study? What about the century’s worth of military aptitude tests? What about reams of NEA test scores? ALL of them point to one undeniable truth: that Blacks, as a group, and especially Males, consistently score lower on them than other American groups, regardless as to “environment” like socioeconomic status/background. In fact iRock, the Shaker Heights study and others, suggests that environment doesn’t play as big a role as those on your side of the aisle – the Blank Slatist Crowd – would like it to be. Why? Because as I noted before, poor Asian and White kids consistently outscore Black kids who come from better funded and equipped backgrounds. Might this be because of real cognitive differences between the races – and if so, SO WHAT? Why is that so very verboten among us, iRock? I think The Bell Curve was a very interesting, if somewhat flawed, book. It raises many legitimate questions. Have you read it?
“What does being poor have to do with being patently uncouth and aggressive?”
-Poor people tend to have those qualities more than others. I mean if you understand terms like like “low class” and how they are used to denote behavior as well as wealth than it shouldn’t be too hard to understand.
O: So please explain how the bulk and mass of Black folk were so much better comported prior to the modern era? Was all those Black folks on the Pettis Bridge solidly middle class? You see what I’m saying here, right? Please explain?
“Why is there such a massive dropout rate in highschools, especially among Black males? We’re not talking teaching these kids to split the atom here, iRock – we’re talking about getting through highschool. What is up with the fact that even the offspring of solidly middle class Black folk do worse on tests than the poorest Asians and Whites? What is up with that?”
-It’s a combination of socioeconomic conditions and cultural values. Scarr & Weinberg did a study where they looked at the IQ scores of Blk children adopted by highly educated White families who were above avg in occupational status & income(1989). These children outscored the avg scores of both Blks & Whites. An Arizona State University study by Elsie Moore looked at blk and mixed children adopted by middle-class families, either black or white. Children adopted by white families had I.Q.’s 13 points higher than those of children adopted by black families. This pretty much shows that even middle-class blk fams have different cultural attitudes when it comes to education.
O: Just not “different” enough to best much poorer Asian and White kids on tests. Again, John Ogbu. Are we learning yet? And yea, cultural attitudes play a role, no doubt – but might there be something said for a literal “brain drain” that has occured in Black America since the 1960s, where those who could get out did, and we are now left with those who were, to use Tim LaHae’s phrase, “Left Behind”? And if so, what do we do? The Bell Curve, anyone?
“The bottomline is that Black people, as a whole, are seen in this way, and if that isn’t the truth, then why aren’t the Buppies fighting harder to quell such a stereotype?”
-How we are seen does not always equal truth. Let me give you an example. One horrible stereotype about Blks is that we are an AIDS infested people. Racist White people love to point out we our 8x’s more likely to catch HIV/AIDS. According? to the CDC approx. 500,000 black Americans are living with HIV/AIDS in the US. Thats out of a population of about 40million which means less than 1%(0.0125). An epidemic is defined as 1% or higher by the CDC. However, the fact that our overall rate is low does not matter to racist/prejudice folk. They are just fine judging us by approx. 0.0125% of our pop. I don’t believe this behavior is widespread in our community, just a significant enuff minority to make it a stereotype.
O; But the point that Whites often make is that Black folks seem to be more sexually indiscriminate than are Whites and Asians, and there is some data to support this. Aside from the OOW birthrates, we have to also consider the fact that Black folk have a higher rate of STD contraction and transmission than do Whites, especially wrt things like Herpes and so forth. Of course, Black Women contract HIV at much higher rates than do White Women. Simply put, it’s true, Black folk get it in more than do Whites and Asians, and along with all rumpy bumpy, comes risks. Among them, higher rates of STDs, higher rates of pregancies, abortions, and so forth. They have a leg to stand on here, iRock.
Your response?
O.
@Obsidian, I believe your main problem is that you try way too hard to be controversial instead of being logical. The Shaker Height’s study did not suggest an absence of environmental factors. In fact, John Ogbu made a purely environmental argument.
“What about the century’s worth of military aptitude tests? What about reams of NEA test scores?”
-None of this goes against my argument. If it weren’t for these test we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
-No, I didn’t read the Bell Curve
“If you want to debate individual studies like why Burakumin score lower on IQ test than majority Japanese when they are the same race/ethnicity or why Blk/Pardo Brazilians have less educational equality than Whites despite how Euro their ancestry”
-I’m wondering why you chose to ignore this…
In summary, you should really look up the definition of the word ‘correlation’ and try to understand it the best you can. It has become overwhelmingly clear to me that you have trouble understanding this simple concept.
iRock,
“-No, I didn’t read the Bell Curve”
I have a better idea:
You actually read The Bell Curve
And then comeback when you’re ready to have a grown up conversation about these issues, OK?
O.
Dude I have analyzed copious amounts of information and spent many hours over this issue. I have heard of Herrnstein & Murray as well as the main points that they bring about in their book, “The Bell Curve”. Their backgrounds aren’t even reputable enough to trump all of the info have have provided to you. Just bc you don’t want to argue the information I have given to you doesn’t mean my points are void. If you truly knew what you were talking about you would have answered those simply questions. I’m sure the Bell Curve can explain the Burakumin situation. Your inability to give any attn to that only cripples your argument in the end. This debate was not revolved around the Bell Curve, so you can’t reference the book to me and honestly believe you have won the debate.
iRock,
There is no debate to be had, for a very simple, yet deeply profound reason:
*quoting iRock*
“No, I haven’t read the Bell Curve.”
*shrugs*
O.
@O
Excuse the typos, I was in haste. The point is this conversation was about race & intelligence, not a book related to race & intelligence. You know damn well it is unreasonable to say I lost an argument bc I didn’t read the book in full. I can see you have trouble admitting this, so I’ll do it for you. YOU LOST.You couldn’t answer my legitimate questions bc you don’t have the answers and you don’t have the answers bc you are wrong. I wont make you admit. I am perfectly fine with you KNOWING.
Hi iRock,
Your apology is accepted.
You said the following: “Excuse the typos, I was in haste. The point is this conversation was about race & intelligence, not a book related to race & intelligence. You know damn well it is unreasonable to say I lost an argument bc I didn’t read the book in full. I can see you have trouble admitting this, so I’ll do it for you. YOU LOST.You couldn’t answer my legitimate questions bc you don’t have the answers and you don’t have the answers bc you are wrong. I wont make you admit. I am perfectly fine with you KNOWING.”
O: Here’s the little problem with all you said above, my Man – it is wholly IRRELEVANT.
Why? Because we aren’t talking about Japan, or Brazil, or New Zealand, we are talking about the United States and the peoples who are descended from African slaves within it. Today’s discussion was about us, Black folks, being brutally honest about looking in that mirror, and grappling with some hard questions that our fellow White Americans want to ask but are constantly shouted down and vilified as being racists merely for thinking and/or giving voice to those questions.
So, when I brought up Race and Intelligence, I wasn’t concerned in the least about what the UN’s take is on the matter. I am concerned with what BLACK PEOPLE do on this score, and the facts are, and you admitted this, that Black kids consistently score lower on tests than other groups of kids, even when controlling for the socioeconomic backgrounds of these kids. Now, why is that? Why are so many Black boys dropping out of highschool? Why is a century’s worth of military aptitude testing, shows Black Men consistently scoring lower than other draftees? Why do Blacks get lower scores on civil service tests (Ricci case, et al)? I mean, what does it take for us to even consider, that maybe – just possibly – there IS such a thing as racial differences in intelligence – and then begin to honestly grapple with the implications of that?
So yea, you’re right – I live for controversey. And I think it is most telling that for all your bluster about being an expert in the matters of race and intelligence, that you refuse to read the most popular American book on the topic to come down the pike in years. Instead, as your comments show here, you seek to discredit The Bell Curve’s authors – very scholarly – sight unseen, their work, I mean. What a joke.
So, let’s refocus the discussion, shall we? Oh yea, and while we’re at it, you can answer the other questions I put to you above. Let’s start with the uncouth and aggressive piece. Again, how are we to explain the fact that poor Blacks in the South act far and away with more dignity and quiet poise than many middle class Blacks do today? And no, I am not interested in what Maoris in New Zealand do. I want to know what is up with Black people on that note. In America. What happened and why do we refuse to simply stop making excuses and change the behavior?
You mentioned Barbados as an example of a successful Black country. Fine. I have a better idea – let’s talk about Haiti. What is up with that country, iRock? Why can’t they get it together – especially since their neighbor right next door, the Dominican Republic, doesn’t have anywhere near as much drama? Why is it that Africa has few success stories, if any – with its biggest one being possibly SAFR? Why does Motown look like its going back into the Stone Age, depsite upwards of FIVE DECADES of continuous Black leadership??? Why is Baltimore going to hell in a handbasket? Why is just about every Martin Luther King Blvd in America, a hellhole?
And yea, you knew I was going to come back to it – WHY are Black Women known, galaxywide, for being mannish, aggressive, and just downright mean? What is up with that?
At some point, we have to begin to get real with ourselves if we want to be taken seriously by other races – because trust me, they think we’re a bunch of pathetic jokes.
Now, you can continue to keep spinning and sputtering and making all manner of excuses if you want to. But me, I’m just a weebit too old for the Bullsh*t.
And we Black folk seem to excel in that.
Holla back – if you can…
O.
Why? Because we aren’t talking about Japan, or Brazil, or New Zealand, we are talking about the United States and the peoples who are descended from African slaves within it. Today’s discussion was about us, Black folks, being brutally honest about looking in that mirror, and grappling with some hard questions that our fellow White Americans want to ask but are constantly shouted down and vilified as being racists merely for thinking and/or giving voice to those questions
Yeah, it is relevant. If you knew a little bit more about other socities you would be able to compare and contrast other traditional oppressed minorities and understand our own situation a lot better.
Haiti?
-Lol and this was the same dude asking about world poverty. Here is the socio-political history of Haiti dude. It’s funny bc I have been readin up on Ayiti all week.
Noam Chomsky: US role in Haiti destruction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVRoWxFB1s
Very interesting stuff. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree man or at least I’ll agree I’m right and you can realize your ignorance. You don’t have the answers bc YOU DON’T KNOW. Accepting your wrong doesn’t hurt.
Peace
Hello iRock,
Replies below:
IR: Yeah, it is relevant. If you knew a little bit more about other socities you would be able to compare and contrast other traditional oppressed minorities and understand our own situation a lot better.
O: Non-sequitur for a whole host of reasons, chief among them being that America is truly exceptional among the nations of the earth. If you can’t see that it is little wonder you are so woefully ill-equipped to have a meaningful, to say nothing of bracingly honest, discussion on the issues actually presented in this discussion.
IR: Haiti?
-Lol and this was the same dude asking about world poverty. Here is the socio-political history of Haiti dude. It’s funny bc I have been readin up on Ayiti all week.
Noam Chomsky: US role in Haiti destruction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVVRoWxFB1s
O: My point was about Black dysfunction that is seen throughout the Black world, using Haiti as a jumping off point, but we can easily look at the African continent. Again, if you wanto continue tap dancing and sputtering, have at it. Grown ups tend to look problems straight in the eye without flinching. Try it with your friends!
Oh, and NC is a homeboy, I know his works very well. He should stick to his chosen profession. Nothing worse than watching a public intellectual make a career out of making an utter fool out of himself. For more on this, read Sowell’s latest work on the matter.
IR: Very interesting stuff. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree man or at least I’ll agree I’m right and you can realize your ignorance. You don’t have the answers bc YOU DON’T KNOW. Accepting your wrong doesn’t hurt.
O: How can we agree or disagree on anything if you refuse to deal with the basic topic of this thread and worse, haven’t even read The Bell Curve? Remember young’un: I have studied the matter; you, have NOT.
*shrugs in nonchalant bemusement*
O.
I really hope my post comes out of moderation. I know it had a lot of links, but I believe the information was extremely important. I’m gonna post part of it w/o the links, just in case it nv shows up.
And why can’t we have honest discussions about Race and Intelligence, with a view toward crafting public policy that reflects the truth about these things?
-I don’t mind talking about it. Most of the studies suggest it’s more environmental than inherent. First of all, millions of Blks have higher IQs than your avg White. Using an individually inherited trait and applying it to an entire group of people is nonsense. The 15pt racial IQ gap between blks and whites is no different than the same IQ gap between 1930 white Americans and today’s white Americans. The stigmatized Burakumin of Japan are the same race/ethnicity as majority Japanese. They are a SOCIAL minority & yet their is an IQ gap of 15pts between them & majority Japanese. Your height is an inherited trait, but the average height of today is significantly taller than the near past!
Blk and Pardo(brown/Mulatto) Brazilians have similar education rates clearly unequal to their White Brazilian counterparts. Yet, genetic studies show Blk Brazilians are only 55%African and 35-40% Euro on avg, Pardos are more Euro than African, and Whites are about 80%Euro, 10% Afro, & 10%Amerindian. Why so much racial inequality in Brazil among non-Whites(Blks & Pardos) and Whites if the non-Whites are Whiter less pure than African Americans? I believe that suggesting racism is connected to this when their are gaps among so many traditionally oppressed minorities around the world.
Google:”All Brains Are the Same Color” by RICHARD E. NISBETT Published: December 9, 2007 in the New York Times and also
“Race and intelligence separating science from myth” Jefferson M. Fish. Click on the Google Books result(3rd link)
Something that has been bothering me for a while now is where our kid’s rank on the educational achievement chart.
There was a recent study – and I know studies can be skewed – that showed black kids who aren’t poor do worse than white kids who are poor and who have learning disabilities.
????
My question: Why do we continue to blame the ‘system’ when we continuously see that, even when our kids have all the advantages in the world, they still can’t compete?
VEG,
Please see my comment above; I think when Whites point these things out, they are onto something and our patent refusal to grapple with what the present doesn`t reflect kindly on us.
O.
The fruit of the tree reflects the HEALTH of the tree. Our children are our fruit. We have failed most of them. The drop out rate is sad to say the least.
Even if we feel that our schools are failing them, maybe we should consider building private schools that will actually cater to OUR children. I have volunteered at inner city schools and often walk away wondering if the curriculum is interesting enough for the children.
My son attended a cultural school for his pre-k and pre-school years. He knows about owning a business already and he is only seven. He reads several grades above his level. I hand picked the public school he goes to, because I did not like to school in our zone. The principal is a brother and he knows all of the student’s names and what is going on with them. He loves math and science and the school reflects this.
I dunno. I read the statistic you listed the other way around me. It tells me that the system is so messed up that even when we get ahead, we’re still behind….likely due to some systematic ill. I’m not sure what that is though. it could be that we nurture our kids differently. it could be we aren’t feeding our kids the right foods, and inhibiting proper brain development at a younger age. Who knows, it could be anything. Sigh.
Liz….you might be on to something. With the increase in autism in kids in recent years. It might be the food.
I think its ignorance at its finest, when I hear the argument that it is an inherent flaw in black students (ie genetics) tfor their under performance compared to their peers from other races. Very few things in the world are based on genetics alone. Most of these so called studies are bad science (i.e. bias are not accounted for, the power is not sufficient etc.) that it is hard to gleam any kind of valid conclusions from them. In fact I challenge anyone to find a study based on this issue where valid conclusions (I stress valid) arguing for genetic basis and I will show a study with bad (or not reliable)science.
How bout we just shut the f$&^ up becuse there is no answer to this. All we will do is ask the same qustions over and over in drifferent ways. But to fix it we need to start with our selves( man in the mirrior)
sure. you lead the way.
1. In the history of the recorded world, there are many misogynistic songs made by men, and i think you can find this in any genre (Latino/Reggaeton, rock music). So i honestly think that a small aspect of this, exists in almost any genre of music, especially when dealing with genre where the producers of the music, are majority male.
however, whatever happened in the early 90s whether it was borne from the gangsta rap era, and folks were getting PAID from 1996-2001 off of music, i think now it’s kind of “whatever has a hot beat and gets folks dancing”…as one of the more popular rappers (who many women consider misogynistic) said:
If we gotta dumb down our style and ABC it
then so be it
cause nowadays these kids, jeez
don’t give a sh-t bout lyrics
all they wanna hear is a beat and thats it
long as they can go to the club and get blitz
pick up some chicks and get some digits
and the DJ’s playing them hits
oh this my jam, this my sh-t
we dont know a word to a verse,
all we know is the chorus
cause the chorus repeats the same four words for us
and the songs ginormous, the whole formula’s switched
cause we don’t know anymore, what are hits
is it the beat, is it the rap
is it a finger snap or the same 808 clap
and how do we adapt and get TRL votes
when 13 year olds control the remote
and Ashley’s got a brand new nose
we gotta put some new em-phasis on our syllables
2. in short, in my opinion…entitlement. Females want dudes to prefer a certain set of standards…that “that” particular female, fits. For example men are supposed to like women at a certain weight, with a certain hairstyle, that has done XYZ things in her life (has 3 degrees, successful single mother, etc.) when in actuality, dudes decide for themselves what they desire, and it shouldn’t be up to chicks to decide what a dude should be attracted to.
3. Some men feel they have to be at a certain level to be able to support a wife and a family in a traditional way. others (i’m not sure if this is a silent majority, or just pockets of certain males on the internet but) feel that the level of female out there in America, is not the type of woman that they wish to get with. or maybe they’re worth having protected sex, but not worth marrying. It might be too much baggage, it might be bad attitude, it might be any number of things.
4. I guess the reason to the answer “why”…is that in the pursuit of saying whatever we feel, and having the right to say whatever we want, whether it pisses people off (aka keeping it real), every other ethnic group has that exact same right to say what they feel as well. so maybe it’s an episode of cognitive dissonance.
I don’t have the time to tackle all of these thought-provoking questions, so I’ll only try my hand at two of them:
2) I have no clue what “personality traits” you’re referring to. Some clarification and/or examples are definitely in order.
3) Based upon the question and others comments, I took this question to mean that Black men choose to get married much later in life (for whatever reason) and as a result, Black women are forced to get married much later in life as well (i.e. waiting on them to come around). I couldn’t disagree with this more.
I think that both Black men and Black women choose to get married much later in life for a slew of personal reasons. I’m two months shy of 30 and I was raised with both biological parents in the household. My parents have been married over 25 years and my maternal grandparents have been married over 60 years. I know that black marriages can work.
But growing up, my father used to always tell me and my sister “I didn’t raise housewives” or “I’m sending you to college so you’ll always have the means to take care of yourself” and my mother often said “Don’t bank on potential” and “Make sure he’s bringing something to the table”. It was instilled in us early that personal success, our own and that of our future husbands, was important.
I had the option of getting married very young (a proposal at 22) but chose not to simply because I felt like there were so many things I wanted to accomplish before I decided to settle down. Since that relationship has ended, my education and my career have taken me to over 5 states all across the country; many of the opportunities I wouldn’t have been able to take advantage of if I would have had a husband and/or children in tow.
My point is that, like others have mentioned above, other ethnicities are taught to choose a mate and build together to create their empire. Black people are typically taught to build your own empire and choose a mate who also has an empire just as good as yours. And we all know that building empires take a lot of time.
Some answers (using the recently introduced R.E. method):
1. I don’t know about music genres historically. I think it happens because rap is mostly created by young, men. What’s on a young man’s mind? Women. What sells? $ex. So young men selling $exual fantasies (one of which I guess is having disposable women) has become popular with men. Surprise.
2. I think this is more of an American woman thing, and not really a black woman thing. I see guys of all races saying this same thing. As to why- I don’t know. I’m sure it has to do with income equality or some such-ness.
3. Most men wanna get married when their financially stable. Black men are taking longer to get there. Fewer of us have the financial help of family to get us started (i.e. parents giving son down payment for first home, son taking over family business, etc.) *I wouldn’t say this is necessarily the norm* but, fewer black men have financial support from family and have to make things happen for themselves.
4. Black people even racist against black people! We’re not lynching white folks in the streets. We aight.
Questions:
1. Why the hell so many of our men make up significant percentages of the jail system? Why aren’t brothas more upset about this? Why aren’t our more successful brothas speaking out more about this?
2. Is our birth control movement effective enough? Why are so many of our women and girls having to get ab0rtions because of unplanned pregnancies. Why aren’t we keeping our legs closed when we can see unplanned pregnancies lead to myriad social problems?
Hi WIP,
Answers to your questions as follows:
1. Why the hell so many of our men make up significant percentages of the jail system? Why aren’t brothas more upset about this? Why aren’t our more successful brothas speaking out more about this?
O: Why should they? Last time I checked, White American middle class Men didn’t seem all that moved about the plight of poor White Men in the joint. Don’t successful Black Men have as much a right to set their own priorities as everyone else?
As to the first part of your question, the reasons are varied and numerous depending on who you ask. But I’ll just toss one on the table: because for many Black Men, drugs dealing and the like is seen as one of the few attainable ways out of the ghetto. Not saying this is right or wrong, just ;pointing this out.
2. Is our birth control movement effective enough? Why are so many of our women and girls having to get ab0rtions because of unplanned pregnancies. Why aren’t we keeping our legs closed when we can see unplanned pregnancies lead to myriad social problems?
O: The presumption here is that the pregnancies are indeed unplanned, when we have quite a bit of evidence that in many cases, they are not. I would like to draw your attention to the recent developments obtaining at a highschool in the Memphis area where some 100 girls turned up preggers, as well as the Pregnancy Pact (White) Girls of Gloucester, MA; and then there is the excellent book, Promises I Can Keep, by Edin and Kafalas.
As to the first part of your question, the answer is because Black Men do not like to wear condoms as much as other races of Men do, and let it be known that they do not want their Women to use the Pill and the like either. As a rule, Black Men take great pride in their virility. Even married Black Women get abortions at a higher rate than all other groups of Women, and have been doing so for quite some time now.
Next question?
O.
1. White men don’t disproportionately fill up the prisons, that’s why they don’t care. Ya, I’ve heard the argument about drugs but I feel it’s irrelevant. Why are more of our sons involved in illegal sh*t? I want to hear more black men acknowledge the problem.
2. I don’t believe the pacts you mentioned represent the majority of pregnancies. I do understand where you’re coming from though- girls don’t try to get pregnant, but at the same time they don’t care if they do. So the majority are unplanned, or at least planned and immediately regretted. And the fact that black women have disproportionately more represents more incidents from us.
“Black Men do not like to wear cond0ms as much as other races of Men do”-
I’ll take your word for it, but it doesn’t really address my concern.
Women have the ultimate power here, so men not wearing protection is neither here nor there. Why aren’t we taking our pills? Why aren’t we getting a shot or a patch? So the fathers aren’t in the home- fine, we’re heard that story, that time has come and gone- so now what do we do about our girls getting pregnant?
WIP,
Replies below:
WIP: 1. White men don’t disproportionately fill up the prisons, that’s why they don’t care.
O: They didn’t care when they did, either. Check your penal institutional history in the USA. You were saying?
WIP: Ya, I’ve heard the argument about drugs but I feel it’s irrelevant.
O: Why? Please explain?
WIP: Why are more of our sons involved in illegal sh*t?
O: I’ve already explained why, but you told me it was irrelevant.
WIP: I want to hear more black men acknowledge the problem.
O: To what end? As if Black Men suddenly wagging their finger is going to solve anything, or what?
WIP: 2. I don’t believe the pacts you mentioned represent the majority of pregnancies.
O: Of course they don’t. The majority of Women of childbearing age aren’t teenagers.
WIP: I do understand where you’re coming from though- girls don’t try to get pregnant, but at the same time they don’t care if they do.
O: That’s NOT what Edin and Kafalas have said. Have you read their book?
WIP: So the majority are unplanned, or at least planned and immediately regretted.
O: Well WIP, which one is it? Seems like you can’t wuite make up your mind on that one, LOL…
WIP: And the fact that black women have disproportionately more represents more incidents from us.
O: What it means is that Black Women want more babies than do their White counterparts.
WIP: “Black Men do not like to wear cond0ms as much as other races of Men do”-
I’ll take your word for it, but it doesn’t really address my concern.
O: Yes, it does. You asked about birth control and the like, including why Black Women had so many abortions. My response above spoke directly to that.
WIP: Women have the ultimate power here, so men not wearing protection is neither here nor there.
O: Tru dat.
WIP: Why aren’t we taking our pills? Why aren’t we getting a shot or a patch?
O: Because many Sistas believe that having a baby for a Man is a way to keep him, not realizing that easy sex, or even hard fought for sex, is the least effective way of holding on to a Man. When it comes to those kinds of things, being pleasant, smiling, supportive, not being aggressive and being more submissive goes a much longer way. Oh, wait…
WIP: So the fathers aren’t in the home- fine, we’re heard that story, that time has come and gone- so now what do we do about our girls getting pregnant?
O: Short of rounding them up and clamping chastity belts on them, not a heck of a lot. Abortions and birth control are safe, legal and widely available, in some cases for free. *shrugs*
Holla back
O.
Just wanted to push back with some other real data:
This study, http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html shows the latest (2008 data) information on abortion trends in america:
Some notable trends:
1). Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.
2). Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.
At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45, and, at current rates, about one-third will have had an abortion.
3) 8% of women who have abortions have never used a method of birth control; non-use is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or less educated.
HOWEVER! NEW TREND!!!
4) 30% of abortions occur to non-Hispanic black women, 36% to non-Hispanic white women, 25% to Hispanic women and 9% to women of other races.
The trend has changed than what it historically has been.
Our birth control movement has been failing for a while, and it looks like all races seem to not use birth control well.
IP,
Thanks for the data!-and it would seem to support what I was saying to WIP about the Pregnancy Pact (White) Girls, huh?
Oh and btw, the book Promises I Can Keep?-it just wasn’t about Black Women. It was also about poor White and Hispanic Women, too. Really good read. Check it out.
O.
“Our birth control movement has been failing for a while, and it looks like all races seem to not use birth control well.”
Black people are like 12-15 % of the population right? but we have 30% of the ab0rtions. Sounds like a problem to me.
I’m not sure if what white men have done is relevant either. Yes, brothas wagging their finger might help! “More boys see drugs as a way out”- so brothas wag that finger and tell them otherwise.
“Because many Sistas believe that having a baby for a Man is a way to keep him”- Some women may believe that, but I doubt that accounts for the majority of cases. Again, I believe the bigger cause is apathy towards pregnancy.
“Abortions and birth control are safe”- Agreed. The instances of black women having ab0rtions (30% of them according to Interested Party) indicate there is a greater problem with “us” getting pregnant when we don’t want to be.
WIP:
Replies below:
WIP: I’m not sure if what white men have done is relevant either. Yes, brothas wagging their finger might help! “More boys see drugs as a way out”- so brothas wag that finger and tell them otherwise.
O: Pfft. Moral umbrage is outdated and overrated. Show em the money. Until then, you can save the finger wagging.
WIP: “Because many Sistas believe that having a baby for a Man is a way to keep him”- Some women may believe that, but I doubt that accounts for the majority of cases. Again, I believe the bigger cause is apathy towards pregnancy.
O: Promises I Can Keep. Read the book.
WIP: “Abortions and birth control are safe”- Agreed. The instances of black women having ab0rtions (30% of them according to Interested Party) indicate there is a greater problem with “us” getting pregnant when we don’t want to be.
O: Not necessarily. Often relationships go sour when the Man discovers hes going to be a daddy against his will. In some of those cases, perhaps more than we may realize or may be willing to admit, the Woman has an aboriton because the guy didn’t want to be a daddy. It’s definitely possible.
O.
I think it’s important to note that hiphop was started and nurtured by a marginalized young male community. I think the marginalized part is what pushes them over the edge in terms of creating fantasy and escapism. I think other genres started by Black people have always been experimental, and gone against the grain (blues, jazz, r&b), but manifested themselves in a different way (i.e. no badgering of women). hip hop is the way it is for several specific reasons, many of which have everything and nothing to do with our race.
??? WTF? What kind of commentary was that???
Liz, Jazz, Rock, Soul, Blues, ALL of them were founded by society’s marginalized sections. I mean, come on, Bird, Miles, Louie Armstrong, they were the hip hoppers of their day. In many ways, moreso. Hip Hop has its critiques of Black Women often for legit reasons. It’s just we don’t have enough balls to admit it.
O.
Being that I come from and stay in Detroit I think I may have a different view from everyone else. The majorities of Black folks really don’t understand or can’t see the problems we have. I see them everyday being here. The only other city that can come close to understanding Detroit is D.C. IMHO if you want to really understand the issue with Black folks look at Detroit . Detroit is a microcosm of the state of Black America and America period.
I actually have a few uncomfortable questions Black folks need to ask themselves
1.Why can’t we take care of ourselves?
Why is it that we are always asking for help or needing help from someone else?
2.Why do we always feel the need to be acknowledged, have a title, or be seen in the mainstream?
Is that more important than anything else. Blacks have been integrated into the mainstream more than any other minority. Where has that got us on a whole?
3.Is the American Dream for us?
Other ethnic groups come to America with their own agenda and their own standard of success. Black folks chase the standard of success set by White America. Why do we chase after something that was not meant for us in the first place? Why haven’t we set our own standard of success?
4.Why are the only financial viable institutions in poor Black neighborhoods churches and liquor stores?
4a. Why do we build mega churches in poor Black neighborhoods?
5.Why does the Black Middle Class seem to move away from Black neighborhoods?
How is it that in my city which is 85% Black and slightly larger than Philadelphia in land mass the Black Middle Class is almost non-existent and has no voice. When I see other minorities the classes are usually mixed in a neighborhood.
6.How come Black folks don’t own their own neighborhoods?
How is it that other minorities can come to Black neighborhoods and set up businesses? Why are we the customer of choice for immigrants?
“4.Why are the only financial viable institutions in poor Black neighborhoods churches and liquor stores?”
And I wouldn’t even be so annoyed with the liquor stores is they were black owned. I feel like there is a disconnect between black and entrepreneurship. I’m struggling to find it myself and I hope to be a solution.
1.Why can’t we take care of ourselves?
I hate to generalize but Americans both black and white have a bit of a “Superman is coming to save us complex.” It would seem that we [blacks] at times suffer from this more. Sure we hustle but we hustle in the wrong areas.
2. Why do we always feel the need to be acknowledged, have a title, or be seen in the mainstream?
Maybe we all have a little Kanye West in us?
3.Is the American Dream for us?
The American Nightmare can work out for us but state of our schools and a collective “meh” attitude by much of our communities until it’s too late, makes that dream go wrong more often than not.
4.Why are the only financial viable institutions in poor Black neighborhoods churches and liquor stores?
Because both institutions are giving the people what they want: Salvation and a buzz.
4a.Why do we build mega churches in poor Black neighborhoods?
Why do we build mega churches at all? I think this is a result of the part of the American Dream that deals with bigger being better.
5.Why does the Black Middle Class seem to move away from Black neighborhoods?
In Charleston the bulk of the black neighborhoods are kind of rough. Many of the mixed-middle class neighborhoods have black professionals. This also may have something to do with the school districts in many cities.
6.How come Black folks don’t own their own neighborhoods?
This has always puzzled me too. I’ve never seen a hair and beauty supply store go out of business in the hood.
@3. From the looks of it in SC its going to be a long 4 years of Sanfraud the sequel.
@4a. They would be better off taking the money and reinvesting it in their communities. Thus generating income for the collective. But we like big and shiny churches and our pastors wearing Steve Harvey suits and driving a Bentley Continental GT. While 75% of the parishioners struggle to keep food on their table and the lights on.
@5. In SC, the way the school funding is distributed poor (and rural) school district really do not have any chance for success (see Bamburg, Dillon Counties also “The Corridor of Shame”). Most major metro areas (Columbia, Greenville, Charleston, Rock Hill). Have the tax base to make up for any budget shortfall.
@6. From my experience (growing up in a black owned business). Black people doesn’t like to support their own. Whereas other races go out of their way to support their own.
I’m pretty sure Nikki is going to suck.
@4a. The people love a good personality cult to follow too.
@5. I grew in said in the Corridor of Shame. (Allendale) That area of the state is basically a third world country that seperates the coast and the upstate. The metro area schools are funded better but they still struggle.
Why are the only financial viable institutions in poor Black neighborhoods churches and liquor stores?
Because both institutions are giving the people what they want: Salvation and a buzz
LOL…I don’t know whether to laugh or cry over this statement…
Is the American Dream for us?
Other ethnic groups come to America with their own agenda and their own standard of success. Black folks chase the standard of success set by White America. Why do we chase after something that was not meant for us in the first place? Why haven’t we set our own standard of success?
Well we are American and this is the only country that we know. This is the only stanndard of success that we have been taught. Most black Americans don’t know where we came from and we don’t have sense of community. Other ethnic groups already have a solid foundation of who they are and don’t see themselves as American so it’s easier to define what is successful in their own culture.
5.Why does the Black Middle Class seem to move away from Black neighborhoods?
How is it that in my city which is 85% Black and slightly larger than Philadelphia in land mass the Black Middle Class is almost non-existent and has no voice. When I see other minorities the classes are usually mixed in a neighborhood.
The Black Middle Class moves away because they don’t want to deal with increased violence, poorer performing schools, and other social ills that are inherent to a poorer neighborhood.
Humble One,
Motown is an oft-discussed topic in the virtually all White Manosphere, and is regarded as Exhibit A in terms of congenital Black Pathology. In fact, when the problems with Black people come up in these venues, Motown is mentioned along with Zimbawe and Haiti. Here’s an example of what I mean: http://socialpathology.blogspot.com/2011/01/civilisation-doesnt-always-move-forward.html
So, you pose a number of important questions along these lines – why is Motown so f*cked up, H1? What is going on with Black folk there? What’s the deal? Please explain?
O.
@Obsidian
There are a lot of reasons why Detroit is in the situation it’s in. Here are a few. These are just from my observations or my opinion.
1) Decimation of the US Manufacturing base
Detroit is the headquarters for America’s industrial might. It’s the heart of the industrial region of the country.
2) lack of Unity among Upper Middle Class and Middle Class Blacks
2) lack of foresight from Black political leaders
Detroit has been majority Black and Black run city for almost 40 years. Black mayors, Black city council, Black folks all in city governement. It should have been a hotbed for Black entreprenuers. You had tons of middle class Black folks that were homeowners and had decent payings jobs. That source of wealth and control was never taken advantage of.
3) Racism
When white folks left THEY LEFT. And they took their money with them. The you have the stereotypes and image that comes with being the largest Black city in the country.
4) a glut of single family homes. Unlike other older Northern cities Detroit doesn’t have a lot of apartments. tenements, etc. Everyone had jobs, everyone had money to buy a house, and the city was redesigned for cars.
5) Not moving beyond the good paying manufacturing jobs.
The factory jobs were good for those that had limited opportunity and had to feed a family. But after a while it became a shortcut . At one time you could easily find folks with an education working in the plant. The plant became the end all and be all. All some folks wanted to do was work the assembly line. It changed from Black folks sending their kids to college by working the assembly line to going from HS to the assembly line. The problem was that things were changing and Black folks were behind. The end-all is not a nice car, nice clothes and a house. What Black folks didnt get and still don’t get is that you can have those things but if they are not built on something of substance than it can easily go.
I think Sistahs have a reason to be the way twe are: I saw King and Boycott last night. We had to be BEAST to go through all that and that is what has been passed down. That was in the 50′s and 60s. I don’t think after all that it was possible to be dainty lil women after having to hold our own agaisnt our oppressor. Remember for a while bw were the ones hired because they weren’t seen as threats, however, we had to build tough skin to deal with that. This will not disappear overnight. Look how long it is taking the slave mentality to go away (it’s still here)!
BB,
What happened more than a several centuries is of no consequence to a Brotha living at the dawn of the 21st century. Black Women have a facial pattern recognition problem that has grown to global proportions. Everyone on the planet knows of the snarling, scowling, aggressive Sista, and which helps to explain why she has such a reduced ranking out on the open mating market. Black Men, like all Men, want a mate who is pleasant and submissive – and when they don’t get it, they vote with their feet. In fact, if the stats and the like are any indication, Black Men excel in being able to vote with their feet, and who can blame them? I cannot speak for all the Brothas in this august forum, but for myself, if a Sista can’t even fake a smile and being pleasant, she can kick rocks as far as I am concerned. We’re not talking about being a Stepford Wife here – just not being loud, aggressive, and instead being a bit more quiet, reserved, ladylike, smiling and pleasant.
It’s not as hard as you think. Try it with your friends!
Holla back
O.
O,
“”What happened more than a several centuries is of no consequence to a Brotha living at the dawn of the 21st century.”"
That is not wise. Past should always be taken into account when dealing with people. You lose a great deal of information when you don’t. It’s like saying slavery did not matter because that was many year ago; that is not true. It does and you still see remnants of it today!
I am the woman that smiles. My mother told me that I would get frown lines if I don’t so unless my day is going hella bad. I wear a genuine smile, because I happen to enjoy my life and love living.
Yeah it is simple and EASY for brothers to vote with their feet. That sounds cowardly if you ask me! BW have not given up on yall, have we? NOPE! Yet, our brothers seem to take the easy route and run when a woman may just need some love. I am so glad that women are a little more graceful and unconditional when it comes to black men. We take you all however you come (although we may try to upgrade you later). Yet, it seems the brothers feel they don’t have to work with us, that’s sad. Let’s hope our sons and daughters learn that love is a choice that will not feel good all the time.
When my man comes home with the weight of the world on his back, I won’t run because he wears a frown for a few days. I will do my best to change that frown into a smile—this is my duty. Maybe more brothers should try that!
BB,
Replies below:
BB: That is not wise. Past should always be taken into account when dealing with people. You lose a great deal of information when you don’t. It’s like saying slavery did not matter because that was many year ago; that is not true. It does and you still see remnants of it today!
O: Ok, so please explain to me how slavery played a role in Black married couples circa 1911 vastly outnumbering Black married couples circa 2011? Shouldn’t that number be the reverse, given the former date’s proximity to slavery? Please explain?
BB: I am the woman that smiles. My mother told me that I would get frown lines if I don’t so unless my day is going hella bad. I wear a genuine smile, because I happen to enjoy my life and love living.
O: Good for you. Now if we can just get the rest of the Sistahood on board…
BB: Yeah it is simple and EASY for brothers to vote with their feet. That sounds cowardly if you ask me!
O: It’s “cowardly” not to want to subject oneself to the daily visage of Medusa, lay prostrate before a Sista with a perpetually bad attitude and get an earfull of crap? If that’s what “cowardice” looks like, Eric Holder was directing his comments to the wrong group of people, LOL! Sign me up!
BB: BW have not given up on yall, have we? NOPE!
O: I’ve already explained the reasons why this is in my first comment of the day. Please review it?
BB: Yet, our brothers seem to take the easy route and run when a woman may just need some love.
O: You get love by being…wait for it…LOVING. See how that works?
BB: I am so glad that women are a little more graceful and unconditional when it comes to black men. We take you all however you come (although we may try to upgrade you later). Yet, it seems the brothers feel they don’t have to work with us, that’s sad. Let’s hope our sons and daughters learn that love is a choice that will not feel good all the time.
O: I want my son to know that he does not have to sit there and gaze upon a perpetually pissed off Screwface, that he can, should and MUST, in the words of the Main Source, look at the front door.
BB: When my man comes home with the weight of the world on his back, I won’t run because he wears a frown for a few days. I will do my best to change that frown into a smile—this is my duty. Maybe more brothers should try that!
O: Sure – I guarantee you that the Sistas who actually smile and are pleasant and submissive for their Men, won’t have anything to worry about in this regard.
Holla back
O.
” I don’t think after all that it was possible to be dainty lil women after having to hold our own agaisnt our oppressor”
This sounds like a genetic fallacy here.
So, is this “genetic/ancestoral inheritance” is what stimulates some of BW’s behavior? Sounds valid, however, conditions change. The slave mentality is a choice. Some people can resist this, given that they have a strong sense of self in early development. This counters the claim that offspring are destined to become like their parents – it negates natural selection. Not saying this in a animalistic sense, but we are adaptive creatures. I am not my father. And my sister is not my mother. However, we are one and we stem from the same tree. But the fruit can fall from the tree, and by natural means (gravity, weather, wind, water, etc) migrate to suitable conditions and start over. Women have been notorious for emulating their mothers; but the objective is not to be a reflection of your parents, but an evolved version.
We shouldn’t use the pains of our ancestors as a justification for our behavior. If a sista has “civil rights syndrome” based on her inability to forgive what WAS NOT done to her directly, but indirectly….then she’s definitely going to have a difficult time mating. Grudges = stress which are counterproductive to spiritual enlightenment which also equals = unattractive.
Learn to let go, ESPECIALLY if your parents can’t. The slave mentality is a choice. Listen to intuition, but dont hate your elders.
Of course that is the ideal solution. Yet, this does not play out well in reality. I agree with you. My family always pushed us to be greater and better than the previous generation. Yet, for the masses, this does not work obviously.
This is my thinking: just as sistahs have to take into consideration the plight of the black man, why not the other way around. That is all I am saying. Don’t act like you all have evolved that rapidly. Although many brothers seems to disappoint, most sistahs still wait for you all to get your stuff together and some times this takes many years. Why not return the favor? Why must women be perfect while dealing with your imperfections?
I agree with here as well. God gave man free will, and in my conversations with Him, He truly doesn’t care which choices we make. It we are unhappy with the results of the choices – make a conscious decison to fix them, but do not complain about the uncontrollable variables in this experiment we call life. He’s not going to do it FOR us, but WITH us when we collectively state “this is not working” and “everyone agrees”. That takes a lot of submission for people who understand that they dont have to submit. Not saying we are complaining….but we are doing more explaining and analyzing, and not enough application.
The easiest resolution for me: be myself. This is a battle of the influences. If I don’t agree with the influence….I’ll simply BE the greater influence. And support others of the like, rather than bash the other influence while knowing they won’t change until they FEEL that who they are is not working for them.
So….
It’s all about who you support…artistically, emotionally, economically. financially, spiritually, socially….
I understand we are trying to identify the problem, but the greatest rule of thumb in progression is: when the student is ready…the teacher will teach.
Until then….support the students of life that prove to be a great influence so they can be the teachers who teach the students who are ready to be taught. That could be a trend if enough people followed the cycle instead of scapegoating (not saying you are)…but alot of these blogs are filled with them.
I have a lot of work to do today, but I couldn’t live with myself knowing that I have written tomes on this very site about why I believe Beyonce responsible for all of those birds dying in Arkansas but couldn’t find time to comment on a serious subject. Be the change you want to see in the world and what not.
2 and 3 have the same root cause, hyper-Americanization. I consider the phenomenon of having an inflated since of self importance to the point of delusion on a wide spread level to be a uniquely American occurrence. And we as a people are vanguards.
Every black man thinks that he is going to be the next 50 Gates-Wade and doesn’t want to settle. Our swagger should be evidence of this potential and women should act accordingly. I may not be a catch, but my potential is out of your league.
Black women are a bit of a mystery to me. I have personally seen a number of them shoot all manner of men down, say they want some kind of unattainable ideal and literally scowl at anyone not named Boris or Rick Ross that approaches, but always run back to their overweight ex with legal problems and questionable credit. Maybe it’s a defense mechanism.
I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to throw this question out there, especially since I am (obviously) white, but it’s a topical one for me. I just found out (i.e., in the last 24 hours) that a guy I was dating and sleeping with has (now had – past tense) a girlfriend (actually two at one point) – and that is the second time in the past year this has happened to me. Both of these guys were black. (I swear that I am an a nice, normal VSWG and have no idea how this keeps happening to me.)
I was telling a Venezuelan friend of mine about this situation, and asking the why does this always happen to me question, and she said to me, “WG, when are you going to learn to stop dating black men?? They just don’t value women and fidelity like other men do.”
Her question brought me up short because I really didn’t have an answer to it – I wanted to call bullshit and say that all men are prone to dickery, but of the diverse variety of men that I’ve dated (every racial/ethnic group, disparate backgrounds, American and foreigner, etc.), my worst experiences have been with black men. I have stopped dating men of other races for reasons like bad fit, differing life views/goals, etc., but a lot of my relationships with black men have ended for reasons like had an anger management problem, tried to date rape me, cheated on me with an ex, has a girlfriend, etc.
Of course, my personal experiences with black men don’t constitute a large enough sample to draw conclusions, and I am dealing with the skewed sample of black men who date 2520s (though most also dated black girls, and in the last two occasions were cheating on black girlfriends). Still, that doesn’t account for why my Venezuelan friend has this overall perception of the black community (unrelated to my personal experiences).
So I guess my question is: First, is this perception true? Do black men not value fidelity and relationships? If black men are more unfaithful, why? If that perception isn’t true, then why have I heard this more than once from black and non-black girlfriends (who started propagating this myth and why)? Is this linked to Champ’s question #3?
And whether or not one believes that fidelity is a good/important thing in a relationship, it definitely impacts family structures and public health, so I think it’s an important cultural issue for all races.
I hope that was thrown out there respectfully enough – I am genuinely curious.
Please see my earlier and first comment above upthread. It should contain the answers you seek.
O.
A few things:
1) I usually don’t generalize, but since your friend did it first, I won’t feel bad about it. Don’t listen to a Venezuelan about issues concerning race. Really, just don’t. In fact, include anyone from South America, the Caribbean, Eastern Europe, the orient, or Africa. You know what, if they aren’t from the U.S. or Canada, just don’t listen to them. I would go deeper into it, but just talk to her parents (or anyone in the don’t listen to group’s parents) about the issue and you will have a better understanding of where I’m coming from. We think the U.S. is bad, but the rest of the world doesn’t have the most enlightened view about black people.
2) “Of course, my personal experiences with black men don’t constitute a large enough sample to draw conclusions, and I am dealing with the skewed sample of black men who date 2520s (though most also dated black girls, and in the last two occasions were cheating on black girlfriends).” Some times we already know the logical answer to a questions, it’s just hard to get past the conclusions are brains are wired to come to. You took statistics, not your heart.
3) Yeah, we have issues, but race is a confounding variable and going by that general marker wont make you much less likely to end up in a bad relationship. Look at dating history, stability of their home and upbringing, education level, and what their friends are doing. This will help you avoid losers irregardless of race. And if they use the word irregardless just cross them off the list immediately.
4) Lastly, this is one of the things that bothers black people in general that you did unknowingly: we don’t get to be individuals. I can’t mess up without the entire race being at fault. White people get to be themselves and it’s taken for granted. It may be hard for you to understand, but it’s a lot of pressure representing the race. If a white guys is a douche, he is a douche, but if I get a C in calculus its a referendum on the (recently) unspoken perception in our country about the innate inferiority of the race as a whole.
1. Having lived and traveled outside the U.S., I’m aware that other nationalities have negative misperceptions about black Americans. However, I have also heard this from Americans of all races, including black men and women. Why this prevalent stereotype?
2. I don’t think my skewed sample accounts for this entire phenomenon. What I want to know is, is there a statistical truth to it?
3. Again, my sample isn’t large enough to control for factors like education and upbringing, though these are obvious factors. I guess my question is, controlling for these sorts of factors, would black men come out as more unfaithful? Has this study been done? (Of course, I could just google this instead of asking the blogosphere.) Duly noted for irregardless.
4. I’m aware of this dynamic, and didn’t mean to imply this from my post. I treat all of my exes, black, white, asian, etc., as their own individual, unique (douche) snowflakes, which is why I have never made decisions about dating based on race. So, I am not taking trying to generalize based on my own experiences with a few individuals (though I cannot deny the trend), but am rather asking the question due to the reaction of others about this stereotype. Or are you asserting that it is thus a stereotype because a relatively small minority of black men are as such and they have somehow come to culturally represent the presentation of black men in relationships?
And while I agree that blacks often don’t get to be individuals (especially in situations where you are a statistical minority and thus the only frame of reference for people of other races), I would say I’m often genuinely surprised by how often commenters on this blog treat 2520s as a monolith rather than a diverse group of individuals. Just an observation.
1. American’s may be better than our international counterparts at dealing with race relations, but by no means are we perfect. In fact, the people most likely to harbor (read internalize) those stereotypes and prejudices are black people themselves, which is probably the most unfortunate aspect of it.
2.-3. The answer to this questions is either “Yes” or “impossible to ascertain” depending on what question you are actually asking. I wasn’t denying a larger propensity for it among black men, but I was just pointing out that the root of the phenomenon lies in factors outside of race. Factors that are all more prevalent in the black community and thus explain the disproportionate representation. Actually, you have to commit to cheat so we may actually cheat less.
Your question seems to ask that if we controlled for every factor outside of “race” would black men still be more likely to cheat than other races. I seriously doubt it, but who is to say. But the fact that this would even be a question…
4. I hear what you’re saying, but the fact that you question the validity of the stereotype based on an extremely limited amount of data speaks to my point. And I wasn’t accusing you of being racist or insensitive, only human. It’s the way we think. We would be paralyzed by indecision if waited for a representative sample size of at least 30 to draw any conclusions. Thus stereotypes and generalizations. The fact that we understand our limitations and try to overcome them is unimportant. Denying this limitations is almost as counterproductive as castigating people for admitting that it exists.
As for blacks treating whites as a monolith, what can I say, we are all people and therefore subject to the same fallacies in thought and perception. Expecting any more of another race would would be nothing more than engaging in the same erroneous thought process that you issue with. Snowflakes, remember?
I have something for you to think about:
Are black men more prone to infidelity?
Here’s something most people seem to forget when discussing this issue in America. It might aid you if confronted by the question again. Trust that it is not just you as a white woman who needs to be reminded of this but others as well.
Simply put….We live in a nation full of black women and men whose varying skin tones should serve as a reminder that white men are indeed no more likely to be faithful than black men.
Two more cases in point for all the folks that insist on getting their carpe diem on:
Elizabeth Edwards
Sandra Bullock
I know a couple of dudes from my office too who have had pretty public blow ups….got a couple of buddies from college running around shook of divorce lawyers and snooped text messages….
As for hip hop: Participating in your own degradation is a hell of a drug
Hip Hop has its issues and patriarchy suck, indeed, but the problems are not all driven by male fantasies.
The conversation about the images of women in the music will lead to change when we not only discuss and talk to/about the rapper swiping the credit card down the sisters ass crack but also open the discussion so that it includes the sister (and the thinking that says it is ok) who, you know, lets the rapper slide the card down her ass crack.
Like most things that ail us we, black men and women, can not come together because we do not own it….together.
“So I guess my question is: First, is this perception true? Do black men not value fidelity and relationships?”
If you want an honest answer, I think most men value fidelity and relationships however it is least practiced by Black man. Statistics support this. Why? Well if you ask a Black man, particularly some on this blog, they’ll say it’s because Black women don’t know how to close our legs and act like ladies. Truthfully, it’s a cultural problem within the Black community. There are many reasons for this. One in particular is lack of good example. Unfortunately for us, we’re still dealing with the psychological effects of oppression. Along with segregation and degradation, came alot of anger that we never dealt with. Therefore, our anger is misplaced and we take it out on one another. Men abandon the women, women take it out on the children, and it all becomes one big mess. Now we’re still trying to fulfill our basic emotional needs like love and acceptance but we lack the social structure and example that other races may have. So some of us resort to primal ways to gain love and acceptance…like s.ex. Some of us lack the tools to be in tune with our emotional needs because we’ve been so busy dealing with effects of a bad childhood or bad life experiences. To put it frankly, some of us don’t know how to love because we lack love growing up. It’s more prone to Black people because of our origins in this world. I hope you understand.
Not be rude or anything (with all due respect), if every man you get with (regardless of skin) cheats on you, then its something in you that’s attracted to those type of men.
not today
almost had to choke an old saltine hag yesterday….talkin some “I’m Franco-American. We are Black in Maine too”
yall be good
peace
1. I think a very big factor in all the woman hatred in Hip Hop as I see it today is the fact that there are so so so many suspects.
2. “Attitude is very rude, Boo, crabby like seafood / It turns me on like Vassey and Lahrule / They call me Starky Love hun, check the strategy” Dennis Coles on Ice Cream.
Shrug, some men love and hate these things equally but are still very mcuh attracted to these traits.
3. The options thing as others have commented on. Mofos know they are commodities and carry it as such.
4. I got to think bout this one a bit more and get back.
These are my personal opinions and observations.
Your #2. It’s cool every once in a while, but you would be surprised how much men in general really hate the attitude. Like really hate it. We love in spite of it, not because of it.
The myth that we like it is kind of like the myth that woman want a man with sensitivity.
LLS, I hear you and already know, much like that discussion going on down thread, there are reasons for it tho, in no way defending having a nasty disposition all day erry day just because either.
By the same token I have had dudes tell me they like/love a lil sassafras(Lively, bold, and full of spirit, strength in a femme sense and much confidence)
Depends on the sass. There’s a difference between confident spunk and basketball wives.
A huge difference *nods yes*, one is an act!
I prefer unabridged pluck, but to each their own.
not sure if anyone threw this out there or not but, the Willie Lynch Speech could possibly give you the origins as to why WE are at each other so much. its all a mental conditioning that has since evolved into a toxic cultural condition amongst blacks.
Off topic but… Willie Lynch letter was a hoax:
Death of Willie Lynch Pt. 1: http://www.manuampim.com/lynch_hoax1.html
Death of Willie Lynch Pt. 2: http://manuampim.com/lynch_hoax2.html
Willie Lynch is Dead: http://jelanicobb.com/content/view/21/30/
These two books got me thinking differently about racial disparities and differences in marriages/relationships/sexuality:
The Sexual Organization of the City – based on chicago data
Social Organization of Sexuality
this might get at question #3 and much more.
You know, it’s about time for both WHITES AND BLACKS TO GROW UP. Only in America is this race card between whites and blacks so damn heated. There was slaves before slavery, and whether or not you want to see it today… we still have a form of slavery happening today… with the LOWER CLASS working for shit… you can make the best life possible for yourself here REGUARDLESS if your born into poverty or not… all it takes it a will and a desire to succeed. Stop ridding other’s coat tails and blaming your bullshit life on YOUR OWN LAZINESS. Be strong… be proud and bigger than the hardships dealt in life. If anyone takes this as a “back handed compliment”, please reread this… you MISSED THE MESSAGE!
I agree Eb, the theory of willie lynch is definitely a source of the lack of respect that is portrayed in rap music, as well as the behavior in a lot of black females. But with all the knowledge and resources available it is only a pitiful excuse for society to continue with this process of thinking.
See above… Willie Lynch = Hoax
ANSWER to questions 1-3. You won’t like it…
Most black men are Narcissists and rap music is the only platform to express a false love of self and disgust with women. The narcissist and the women who like them have no deep connection with their fathers. Most black men and women build walls and disguise themselves as characters, not real people. Most of what we say and do is a facade. We accept and expect very little so we garnish ourselves in jewels and designer clothes because we have no clue who we are. These are all generational curses handed down and all we do is repeat the cycle and refuse to face the trauma and disappointment that made us this way. Until then, party on
“These are all generational curses handed down and all we do is repeat the cycle and refuse to face the trauma and disappointment that made us this way”
Glad someone said it!
All great questions (especially number one!!) I have no answers but appreciate some of the thoughts offered above. Tough questions I ask related to these topics include (1) Can black people (or any other traditionally, historically oppressed people….but mostly black people) REALLY be racist? Prejudice is one thing, but that’s different than racism. (2) As it relates to your first question, why doesn’t the rap music of today bother me? I feel like it should because some (most) of it is AWFUL. Simply awful. I should be standing in front of the record companies with picket signs, driving bulldozers over their CDs. But I’m not. I know all the lyrics, the beat, the dances, and the remixes. And I’m a 30 year-old, black, well-educated, well-employed, Christian, “valued” woman originally from the south with no daddy issues and fairly good sense. Maybe because like Chris Rock said….in all those rap songs, “He ain’t talkin’ ’bout me….”
Wow where do I start…
In regards to the negative protrayal of Black women just about EVERYWHERE: I blame hip hop and most importantly, I blame Black men. To be honest, white men did start opression against women in general however I have never ever seen a race of women bashed on more than the black woman. Not ever. We do have more rights in this country in comparison to women in other parts of the world, particularly Muslim women but overall the “cheapening” of Black women is terrible. It’s like we have no value because our own doesn’t value us. Even if you wanted to take away the harsh words, look at the actions. We are not married, have the most kids and carry the most diseases out of any race of female in the U.S. Sure some say it’s are own fault but who is our silent partner in these statistics? Black men. It has been proven that Black men spread more disease than women and obviously they are getting us pregnant so why do we bare the bashing? It’s true we need to use more discretion but I can’t believe the notion of blaming the woman and not the agressor. And who spreads the most hate when it comes to words? I’m sorry but I can’t blame the white man or white society for this. this is a question for our own.
There are many reasons but if i were to pin a point in time, I would say the late 60s. Our leaders were killed off, then came the women’s liberation movement, then came drugs and the rest is history. We lost respect for one another. I believe Black men took alot of their own opressed anger out on the Black women. Also, one of the negative side effects of the women’s liberation movement is alot of us (not majority) started abandoning our womenly duties like raising children. Frankly, some of us got hooked on drugs and the party life of the 70s. Now these neglected children grew up without strong values and started repeating the cycle. Now that our common enemy is no longer in the flesh (subliminal racism) we can focus on the jones’. I could go on and on but I think we all get the point.
To wrap it up cause I know this is long…I blame all of us. I am upset at the fact that Black men fly under the radar for alot of their mis-treatment of Black women but I still blame both us. Women lost their value due to bad parenting, men grow up without fathers so they lost their ability to be men in every sense of the word, we hate on each other, we’re full of jealousy and we all point the finger at the other person. It’s a cycle that probably won’t end anytime soon because WE ARE UNWILLING TO DISCUSS THE PROBLEM, FIND SOLUTIONS, AND CHANGE OUR LIVES. To put it frankly, we’re ignorant.
What you said is as close to “spot on” as Ive read in a very long time. And tthat period of time that you mentioned (post civil rights until the inroduction of the drug epidemic) was supposed to be our time to establish ourselves Mentally, but it never happened. Instead we have fastracked progress professionally and never addressed the mental and emotional toll opression and familial disfunction has taken. We are fundamentally some fcked up folk- confused and lost.
And until we address our serious issues and disguise our issues with superficial gain our plight will get worse (which is hard to believe).
And yes, we (men) are the root of EVERY one of our issues.
Well said. The psychological toll was never treated or even addressed. We got our rights, then expected to bounce back. Our pride driven by low self-esteem limits our ability to see our real issues within ourselves.
Hyperbole and bull. Black women were never deemed innately inferior and ineffective by black men in the same way that white women were by white men. look up the idea of chivalry and try to find a parallel in the black community. You wont.
And hip hop degrades all women. Say what you will about hip hop, but it is the only medium in the world that perpetuates a somewhat Afro-centric beauty ideal. And I don’t find it any more demeaning or damaging than Playboy or Vogue or Cosmo. And hip hop is too big, too multifaceted, too changing for you to use the late 90s commercial apex of coonery version of hip hop as it’s sole representative. Hip hop is a mirror, not an imperative.
A painful mirror. It reflects just how fucked up we are. And to your point about HipHop’s beauty, it’s more of an abstract beauty and tales of surviving- not living.
Never said it was pretty, but blaming hip hop is like blaming a symptom for the illness.
“Black women were never deemed innately inferior and ineffective by black men in the same way that white women were by white men”
As a Black woman, I can give you hundreds of examples on how we’re deemed inferior by Black men in the exact same way or worse than the way White men do their women. Also, I disagree with your logic that hip hop degrades all women…no just black women. Listen to the lyrics and look at the videos. Anyone with common sense can see Black women are the subject matter. Hip hop is not a mirror as much as it is a trend setter. With our daily speech, clothing, style, etc affected by hip hop…this also spills over into perception.
I listen to a lot of rap. A lot of it is degrading to women, and black women in particular. I honestly can’t recall a scenario that suggests that women are less capable than men or that they should be oppressed or denied rights granted to men.
Come back from your defense of hip hop, it’s screwing your ability to understand my point. I love hip hop too. I did not say it’s the cause or origin of women’s oppresion Meech. I was referring to hip hop’s negative portrayal of Black women.
Point taken. You’re making me sound like Common. I guess my question to you should be for examples for: “As a Black woman, I can give you hundreds of examples on how we’re deemed inferior by Black men in the exact same way or worse than the way White men do their women.”
Maybe I just don’t see them because I’m a man, but that whole women are supposed to be barefoot, pregnant, and not voting thing wasn’t us.
Again, I didn’t say women’s opression was us. I said it was created by man period. (taken that pregnancy isn’t oppression
) Men in general tend to view women as inferior but that’s another topic for another day.
Uncomfortable question: Why do African-American men at least SEEM to be the worst perpetrators of exoticizing other races of women (or multiracial women) over women of their own race? Is it self-hatred?
KittyCat,
I don’t know where you’re getting said perception/information from; if anything, White Men do this more than anyone else. According to US Census figures, they outmarry to Asian Women at an extremely high rate, making their pairings the most common in the USA.
Now, having said all that, allow me to suggest the following…
Men like sexual variety, and it is possible that Black Men like more of it.
What do you think?
O.
Self-hatred on both sides sista (women too). And the two attract each other. Low self worth attacts Low self worth.
Who we are attracted to is generally a reflection of how we feel about ourselves.
“Who we are attracted to is generally a reflection of how we feel about ourselves.”
Very true. A Lot of times it speaks more to a person’s own insecurities than anything else.
Very true. A Lot of times it speaks more to a person’s own insecurities than anything else.
Agree with this.
I don’t think we exoticize other races more. Self-hate? Maybe. But I don’t think that black men have any self hate issues that black women have when it comes to aesthetics. I actually think that since society judges women by their looks more than men the opposite would be true. I think it’s more an issue of black being on the low end of the societal beauty scale in general and black men having more “upward mobility”.
You have to be a member of the main stream to exoticize. Asian Americans marry outside of their race more than any other ethnic group, but marrying a white woman wouldn’t be called that.
“You have to be a member of the main stream to exoticize.”
I wholeheartedly disagree. Many of the BM I know (and I ONLY associate with VSBs when it comes to BM) BRAG when they’re saying they bagged a chick that was half-Black, half-Puerto Rican, or a Dominican chick, or a half-Japanese, half-Cherokee chick, or WHATEVER! One dude I spoke to said he’d spent plenty of time with BW and was ready for “something new”. Gag me. Another said that, although ALL races of women have the same issues, he was tired of dealing with them from BW. He didn’t like a friend of mine when he thought she was Black because she had a lot of attitude, but when he found out he was Panamanian, he joked I could give her his number. WTF?!
And, I’d argue that, because of the stereotypes about BM and their virility, well-endowment and sexual prowess, they’re in the mainstream, at least sexually. That’s a fetishism too. The movie “I’m Through With White Girls” had some interesting commentary on this.
I have no problem with interracial dating/love. It is very common in my intermediate and extended family and, if other races were attracted to me, I would practice it myself. But I wouldn’t practice it because I don’t want BM. I would practice it because I want to find a MAN (period, race disregarded) that I fit with. I think there’s actually something wrong with, if everything else is equal, you’re practically deifying women of other/mixed races.
Here’s the irony with Interracial Dating… I’ve dated many.
Most women of other races that seek black men have HORRIBLE “Daddy Issues”. Aside from sexual curiosity, many of them (women of other races) are looking for the same level of protection and security that so many black women lack. So regardless of race, women tend to seek out men that appear strong and masculine. However, the strong exterior on most black men is not real at all in most cases.
Na, as a black man that hangs out with the other half I can tell you that we are not main stream. Some girls want to hook up, but the floodgate of white P is greatly exaggerated.
So basically your friends were going for anything that wasn’t JB, or just black as we called it in undergrad? That sounds more like discounting black women than being attracted to the exotic.
And yes, black men probably do like women that lie somewhere between the black and white beauty ideals. Makes since as those would be the competing major influences in the black community.
SFG,
Replies below:
SFG: Wow where do I start…
In regards to the negative protrayal of Black women just about EVERYWHERE: I blame hip hop and most importantly, I blame Black men. To be honest, white men did start opression against women in general however I have never ever seen a race of women bashed on more than the black woman. Not ever. We do have more rights in this country in comparison to women in other parts of the world, particularly Muslim women but overall the “cheapening” of Black women is terrible. It’s like we have no value because our own doesn’t value us. Even if you wanted to take away the harsh words, look at the actions. We are not married, have the most kids and carry the most diseases out of any race of female in the U.S. Sure some say it’s are own fault but who is our silent partner in these statistics? Black men. It has been proven that Black men spread more disease than women and obviously they are getting us pregnant so why do we bare the bashing? It’s true we need to use more discretion but I can’t believe the notion of blaming the woman and not the agressor. And who spreads the most hate when it comes to words? I’m sorry but I can’t blame the white man or white society for this. this is a question for our own.
O: What a crock. OK, so it’s Hip Hop’s fault that Black Women are virtually world reknowned for their bad attitudes, aggressive mannish behaviors, perpetual scowls, and the like? Rap music did that? Now that’s a new one! I’d heard of rap music being the blame for a lotta stuff, but this one takes the cake.
See what I mean, everyone? Black Women just simply flatout refuse to take personal responsibility for something that is 100% within their control to do something about, and instead wants to foist it onto a group that has been analyzed, “critqued”, “deconstructed”, pilloried, you name it, from the local preacher in church to the highest halls of power in DC and everything in between. Yet, when someone (me) even makes the suggestion that perhaps, just maybe, the reason why Black Women enmasse throughout the world are seen as having bad attitudes, screwfaces, mannish ways and so forth, is because of their own doing, we get the passing the buck thing above. SMH…
SFG: There are many reasons but if i were to pin a point in time, I would say the late 60s. Our leaders were killed off, then came the women’s liberation movement, then came drugs and the rest is history. We lost respect for one another. I believe Black men took alot of their own opressed anger out on the Black women. Also, one of the negative side effects of the women’s liberation movement is alot of us (not majority) started abandoning our womenly duties like raising children. Frankly, some of us got hooked on drugs and the party life of the 70s. Now these neglected children grew up without strong values and started repeating the cycle. Now that our common enemy is no longer in the flesh (subliminal racism) we can focus on the jones’. I could go on and on but I think we all get the point.
O: Please give me an example of this scourge “Subliminal Racism”? I need clarification. Thanks!
SFG: To wrap it up cause I know this is long…I blame all of us. I am upset at the fact that Black men fly under the radar for alot of their mis-treatment of Black women but I still blame both us. Women lost their value due to bad parenting, men grow up without fathers so they lost their ability to be men in every sense of the word, we hate on each other, we’re full of jealousy and we all point the finger at the other person. It’s a cycle that probably won’t end anytime soon because WE ARE UNWILLING TO DISCUSS THE PROBLEM, FIND SOLUTIONS, AND CHANGE OUR LIVES. To put it frankly, we’re ignorant.
O: Ignorance means to not know; we know the deal, we just don’t wanna “air dirty laundry”. What a crock. Black Men are constantly held accountable, the prisons give us stark proof of that. The reality here is, that Black Women aren’t held accountable for anything here, and the proof of that, as if we need some more, is when was the last time you recall a presidential candidate taking time out of his or her campaign schedule, to make his/her way to a church to excoriate Black Women on Mother’s Day?!?
I rest my case.
Man Up, Ladies. Man Up…
O.
I used to be where you are. But honestly pimpin, you have to see that this shit starts in the home. Most men and women are as emotionally developed as a twelve year olds, so you honestly can’t expect logic and reason to supplement psychological involvement.
Let me let you in on a secret that most mental clinicians know very well… If the father was not actively involved in a child’s rearing he or she is emotionally doomed and destined for relationship failure (notice I did not say profesional).
Now realize how many of us had no real connection to our fathers. This is traumatic alone. Now add abuse, neglect, heart-break, societal woes and sheer confusion to the pot and what you have is an entire race of people searching for answers but have no clue what the question is. The question is, when are going to stop pointing the finger at white people and do what our elders could not do and deal with the emotional scarring? Most men have no clue what being a father is because we never had it. Conversely, most women have no clue what a “good man” is because they never had it. This is a recipe for where we are now.
Bruh,
Please spare me the psycho-babble. This ain’t about some mamby-pamby, feelgood Kumbayah session here, we are talking about Black Women’s world famous bad attitudes, and this includes quite a few Sistas who had dads in the home, AND were solidly middle class, to boot. It don’t take umpteen appearances on Oprah to simply smile, be pleasant and dial down the hollerin a few decibels…better yet, silence is golden.
Just get tired of the excuses, Man. Hence the reason why, truth be told, Brothas be looking at the front door…
O.
Obsidian,
If what I’m talkin about is “mamby, pamby”, I suggest you take a deeper look at the women you date (or dated). The anger that your talkin about has a source. There is no possible way you can understand why the anger exists without facing the truth. Im sure you don’t wanna hear it (I get tired of talking about it). Women are not born bitter and angry.
I tell you what… Take the time and really get to know a woman. Ask her her life story. What I promise you is that you’ll find a serious issues- seriously. So disregard my comments if you want and continue your quest to find out “why” women are so angry. And once your done spinning in circles, revisit what I said.
*slow clap* He’s the last one to talk about babble. His comments are lengthy and all over the place. You have a very good point. There’s def a source to all anger. He doesn’t understand the anger because he’s not taking the time to know the truth or face it. No one is born bitter. There’s no such thing as a bitter gene. It’s a cycle of life that these women and men are born into. Obsidian should go beyond the surface and start talking to women. More times than none, you’ll find she has a past of heartache or bad childhood. Also, there’s a lot of angry men out there who take out their frustrations on women in the form of emotional abuse, physical abuse, rape, child-neglect etc. Maybe he should try to understand why that is.
I’m one of them…used to be.
<3 to you and SFG.
+1. You keeps it real. lmao. Reading and listening is fundamental. A lot of peeps should do more of it.
Pfft 3X. Sistas have been in one multi-decades long group therapy session, what with all the Oprah, Color Purple, Tyler Perry, Helena Andrews, this, that, etc, et al, and they still can’t get it together. Brothas are just tired of it, its just many of them don’t openly speak on it. Well, I am, and it is about time for Sistas as a group, to begin addressing some of the things that others around the world, can see about them. Like their attitude. No, no one is really all that interested in trying to divine what a Sista’s whys and wherefores are, one, because life is hard enough as it is for all of us, and two, because no one is paying us to deal with a client like that. How about Sistas simply change their attitude? How about that? Costs nothing, doesn’t require getting a law passed or the second coming of Jesus to do.
How about it?
O.
First off I’m upset that I wrote a reply that got 404′d. UGH!!
Secondly,
I didn’t blame hip hop for the rut Black women are in…I blamed hip hop for the negative PORTRAYAL (as in image) of Black women. Most white people do not live with or interact with blacks on a daily basis. Their view of us is based off of media depiction and history. Being that Hip Hop is the largest music genre reaching over a billion people, you can do the math on how hip hop is a contributing factor to the negative image of blacks. If it wasn’t for music or movies, whites would have no idea what goes on within the Black community. I do have a problem with all of the negative as positive hip hip is d@mn near dead.
Now if you are talking about accountability, you’re preaching to the choir. There goes your reading comprehension as I clearly stated that I blame both genders. I’m all about self-reflection and accountability so save the rant.
SFG,
Who cares what Whites think, and what does that have to do with the truly foul attitudes so many Sistas are universally known to have? And how did Hip Hop make Black Women act this way? This is about them making some basic humanity-level changes, that don’t require White folks to signoff on it, require a Congressional commission to sort through, a new law passed, or the next Ice Age to occur. It is all about Black Women themselves deciding to act like actual ladies for once.
The End.
O.
Maybe you haven’t noticed but White people are running this country. Their negative attitudes towards our race does affect us as they are making the laws that govern our nation. Please re-read my original comment upthread. I didn’t say Hip Hop makes Black women behave badly. What are you reading? Art does imitate life and vice versa but I clearly said that the late 60s factors contributed to our demise of morals. Contributed, not sole contributor. There are many reasons. Hip Hop is just one force that affects our culture. If a rap song makes it cool to drop it low and booty clap (which I love to do both), we’re going to drop it low and booty clap. That’s just one example. I think many of us under-estimate how much our culture affects the world. Again, I love hip hop, droppin it low and all that mess but I’m not naive.
In regards to us making basic humanity-level changes, this applies to both women AND MEN. I see most of your comments are directed towards women. It makes me think that you don’t see the 2 way street when it comes to the accountability you speak of. In order to put a stop to a certain behavior, you have to understand why someone does what they do. You have to understand why some Black women don’t act like ladies. Could it be family structure or lack there of? Bad parenting due to single parent households? If you’re not willing to dig deep to find a solution, you’re just a part of the finger pointing problem. My understanding is lack of good example or leadership. Don’t get it twisted, I may talk about d*cks and d*ldos on a blog because it’s a blog and I can do that however when it comes to how I carry myself in life, I’m a lady. Why? Because I had an excellent mother who is also a lady. Why? Because I had an excellent father who taught me about men. I was great in school because my parents were and put emphasis on academics in the household. I’m a good parent because my parents were good parents to me. I know how to carry myself in public because I watched people around me carry themselves well. However I know that not all women or people grow up in this fashion. Your surroundings do and will affect your behavior. It’s all about examles. Go beyond the surface, O.
@ obsidian:
You make some very interesting points… however, the general tone of disdain and the way to seem to tie your points back to your negative opinions on black women detracts from your ability to get your message across.
Today’s post was very poignant, but it is just a starting point… after we ask these difficult questions of ourselves as a community, we have to find ways to improve individually and as a whole. One thing I am sure of is that an attitude of ‘blamestorming’ will only worsen matters. There are 2 sides to every coin… your use of phrases like “we are talking about Black Women’s world famous bad attitudes…” and your continuous insinuation that black women are serving as only a detriment to the black community, the black man, etc is very dangerous and is another symptom of the malaise that we face as a community.
Both black men and women have an EQUAL burden of responsibility in getting us to where we are now. You say that black women aren’t held accountable for anything? Try again… who do you think stays back and takes care of family when the guy is in jail? Do you think that black women are exempt from going to jail for criminal acts? Have you heard the term ‘ride or die’ and do you know what that has meant for several women? You cannot continue to paint black women with this broad stroke of negativity. We are paying for our decisions, good and bad, just like everyone else out there.
Why are we so angry with each other? Why are we so ready to rain insults and tear each other down? The black community suffers from this to an extent I can’t even measure, and it shows in our marriages, our music, our online prescence, everything just reeks with divisiveness.
Once we get to the root of this divisive behaviour, I think we will be on the way to some serious progress as a community.
+1. I once heard Cornell West in person and he was talking about Bill Cosby (ranting about the plight of blacks). West said everything Bill said was right (and I agree) but it was how he said it that made folks upset with him.
I think Obsidian makes some good points (I don’t know him personally but I hope he doesn’t hate bw)…..but his polarizing tone is what turns off people.
Rap music (generally speaking) sh*ts on ALL women not just Black women. Not justifying it, just saying that the disrespect is spread across the board.
This would be true if I believed that most rappers actually KNOW any non-black women prior to them “making it”. 9 times out of 10 these men are talking about the women they interact with on the regular and those women are black.
Thank you Deviant.
Seriously! It’s as if people in one breath say something and say its opposite in the next. I thought hip hop was the expression of the rapper’s life? Lyrics were a way to express their realities… Are there that many rappers running around mingling with Becky, Ming Lee and Meghna? I think not.
Besides, this argument irritates me more than anything. So it’s okay to be an all-opportunity misogynistic a-hole? Ugh.
Champ you must have posted #5 late because for some reason I can’t find any comments addressing it…not even the most thoughtful ones. Guess I’ll just chalk it up to fatigue from addressing 1-4.
I think that much of the answers to #1 and #3 are wrapped up in the answer to #5. And it’s a shame we’re not talking about it. For one thing, this stereotype of virility extends to black women as well and even though it seems like a positive thing, it was one of the most sinister stereotypes originating from slavery times that extended from white persons view of us as sexual objects to be raped, experimented with and bred.
Fast forward a couple centuries and we’re embracing this like we forgot where it came from. As black men, it gives us a certain trump, per say, in the sexual market but I get (at least I think) where champ is going with this. What happens when you your identity is so wrapped up in existing as a sexual being? What happens to your *goals* for relationships, your view of women (or yourself for that matter) and what you deserve, hell, even the context and importance of sex in a healthy relationship. Black men aren’t getting married because we’re putting such a high commodity on sex — and not relationships…and this flows from viewing ourselves as predominately sexual beings. And we take pride when other races view us in the same light. Black men objectify women because, well, when you identify yourself in predominantly sexual roles, you need objects to fulfill that role. But it’s hard to sleep with a lot of women who want more than sex from with you if you actually care for them.
There’s nothing wrong with having a healthy, creative, and curious sex life. But I think our willing identification as a hypersexualized people DEFINITELY explains the disproportionately high prevalence of teenage pregnancy, STD rates, single parent households, and low marriage rate. Second, I also wonder what impact it has on black men subconsciously…what goals are they foregoing to fulfill their role as a sexual being? What other parts of themselves are they ignoring or not developing?
Last, I think Champ hinted at our homophobia, which may actually share some overlap with #4. I suspect a lot of it has to do with our religion, but let’s think for a minute about the consequences of stigma and sweeping homosexual behavior underground or denying them the same rights as heterosexuals. I think it explains much of the down-low phenomenon (AND scare btw)…if gay men could just be gay men, still be accepted by their families and communities they wouldn’t have to hide…and black women would have to second guess brothas all the time. I know other races are on the DL too but the homophobia in the African Diaspora is large.
Now I know this might stir up some heated comments (pass me a phonebook please…) but I’ve always been perplexed at how heated we get when the gay community wants to appropriate the civil rights movement in its quest for gay marriage and other rights. The argument goes that their oppression doesn’t even come close to what **our parents and ancestors** endured. And then, there’s the argument that they can pass for straight but we can’t pass for white. For one, doesn’t that fly in the face of everything the civil rights generation fought for? That if we could pass for white, deny who we are, that would be acceptable, or even okay? Is that what MLK and MX died for? Then how could we, as an oppressed people, ask that of someone else? In fact, MLK’s late speeches seem to move beyond racial equality to equality for all oppressed groups but sadly his life was ended shortly thereafter…
Thanks Champ for the post
1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?
Whether they admit it or not, most people view their status in the world from the perspective of old white men. That’s why there’s such a fascination with greed and elitism (having something that no one else or very few people have). Men > Women and White > Black therefore Everyone > Black Women (Sadly, this is the general societal perspective in the US. You can debate it if you want but you would be wrong.) Ironically though, black women have made major comeuppances in society (excluding athletes) because it’s been easier. (They’re viewed as less of a threat because women can only go so far.) So sh*tting on black women keeps black men from the bottom of the totem pole. Oh.. and black women allow that sh*t to be said and still give up the p*ssy.
2. Why are African-American women the only women on the planet where a good many of them (not all, of course. but enough to matter) expect men to be attracted to certain personality traits that are the complete antithesis of what most men are attracted to?
Because men act in contradiction to their attraction. A man may be attracted to intelligent, sane women but marry some chick who is dumb as a rock and crazy as batsh*t because he fell for the donk. Oh…and most women have friends who coddle their egos instead of calling them out on their crazy.
3. Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?
Peter Pan syndrome coupled with a perceived lack of marital advantages. Here I’d argue that men don’t really see marriage as something good and worthwhile, evident by the dreadful *ss [what's the opposite of a euphemism] by which the act of marriage referred. Marriage is depicted as a death sentence where all the fun is zapped out of life. I don’t know about you but I’d try to prolong that sh*t as long as possible too.
4. Our history in this country has given us a bit of a “they’ve been oppressed, so it’s ok for them to do and say openly racist sh*t” pass. And, we’re not particularly shy about using it, even in jest (myself included). Anyway, we especially know how hurtful racially-charged insults and comments can be, but we continue to do it. Why?
N*ggas is ignorant.
(Also, would you rather continue to have the “pass” or complete equality? Think about it a bit before you respond, though. When you think about the creative and communicative freedom the pass gives us, the answer isn’t so easy.)
The “pass” without question. Complete equality isn’t even a real option in our lifetime. Besides, the eradication the “pass” would kill the careers of most Black comedians. We need to think of them.
5. Through our words and actions, both black men and black women promote and take pride in the idea that black men are typically virile and extremely hyperheterosexual. Why haven’t we realized that the acceptance and promotion of this perception has many, many, many more negative effects than positive?
See #1. Life according to men is a d*ck measuring contest and black men are struggling to find their place. What better way to gain an advantage than to constantly propel “The Myth”? That’s just a very old, but reliable, marketing campaign. Kinda the same way Velveeta can lead people to believe it’s cheese.
(said in a non-stalker way) I love you.
I enjoyed reading this post
Way, way upthread Liz commented “we are an angry people”. We are. Just like we don’t like to look in the mirror we don’t like to admit we are angry. Angry about things that are completely out of our control(racism, sexism, and all the other isms); angry that those things are out of our control. Angry at each other for not loving each other or at least not loving each other in a respectful manner. Angry because she won’t give you a second look because you don’t make $100,000/year. Angry at him because he won’t give you a second look because you don’t happen to resemble Beyonce, Nia Long or any other female with a personal stylist/make-up artist/hair dresser.
This anger has been passed down for generations. It’s not addressed and it grows and festers and is passed to the next generation to grow and fester and be passed to the next generation.
And I know, no one on this site is angry.
I totally agree with you. We are angry and I believe the anger is amply justified… However, not acknowledging it and embracing and/or working on it is counterproductive, and like you said only makes it fester…
pretty much. I used to be super angry about all of this in college. Some semesters were really rough lol. But, I am less angry now, mostly because I know I can’t change the past, and I really only have control over myself and how I interact with people directly. If enough people felt this way, maybe we could pull ourselves out of this systematic anger. Plus, it sucks to be actively angry like that.
I’m convinced a lot of it has more to do with our lack of understanding about the depth of the collective, than some kind of pervasive failure in the “black community” in dealing with these “issues.” I think it’s more about the way we approach it than anything having to do with say, the myriad issues affecting black folks as a group.
Actually, let’s get real basic with it: The use of the term ‘Black’ is #1 on my list. It’s the essence of “Race-ism”…that is the concept of “race” as an ‘ism’. Until we get past the silly, essentialist notions surrounding race and it’s definitions…ie, the unspoken one-drop rule, et al… NONE of this will make a difference.
I don’t find the word black racist at all, that’s what I prefer as opposed to African American. I am American negroe and native, with some white blood mixed in for good measure, that is a truer descrip, fo real doe.
Ultimately, I think the answer is that WE lack a collective.
Reading this thread you can start to see the divide in the past problems that have plaugued us (i.e. light vs dark skinned) to the current problems (i.e. black women vs black men (SFG’s example)) We are a people against each other in so many ways.
The question that I add to the discussion is this:
How do we keep our culture, belief system, etc. and still try to fit into American society?
Start over. No more lies.
Easier said than done. Also, it’s unrealistic…look at it like a relationship, if we are to better understand the person we are going to spend the rest of our lives with, we definitely want to know their past. It helps to understand them better and know what you are getting into. Can a hoe be a housewife? Sure, we seen it happen. Can Mike Vick have another dog? Please God no.
We are on the same page. When I said start over I meant confronting our past (personal and cultural). Shht, I don’t think black families (as a whole) eever had it right. Black men have historically not been intimately involved with their families. And black women have watched black men father children out of wedlock and said nothing about it. All they knew was to keep it going no matter what. Well now men have to be accountable for their actions and it aint’ goin over too well for either side (men or women).
I’ve been married and made the same excuses many men have about how hard it is. We (black men) have been handed a raw deal, but it doesn no good to shift blame. I cheated because I didn’t care. I looked down on black women because of their desperation. The fact is n$ggas like me are the reason they are the way they are. Fact
right cause that other sh*t is very tired and very telling, when folk engage in pointless conservations filled with generalizations and finger pointing…that helps no one.
Instead of really trying to understand the plight and walk in the other’s shoes, you just get extreme bitterness and blissful ignorance under the guise of intellect.
Sounds like a woman to me. I blame hip-hop.
ahaha …… NO, that’s a descrip of some of these so called learned “men” on here, but I digress.
Lyndon
I see you, avatar style, (although that movie was jive corny and lacked depth LOL)
What happened to your show on BET?
“In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?”
Many who rap (and likely others) who feel disdain towards African-American women use rap as a platform to speak about it because this was the first authentic voice (along with a massive amount of listeners) they were afforded in mainstream America. Listeners are able to relate to the subject matter and simple minds have a catalyst for generalization. And, because the subject matter of rap music is so commanding, convicting and courageous, it is much easier to create a thought consensus.
“Why are African-American women the only women on the planet where a good many of them (not all, of course. but enough to matter) expect men to be attracted to certain personality traits that are the complete antithesis of what most men are attracted to?³”
I, for one, believe that I would likely be included in the “not all” category of women because experience has taught me to change some of my learned expectations of men. But in reference to my take on the subject, I believe it is a combination of women refusing to accept what doesn’t make sense to us and men not always saying exactly what they want. Many women have a tendency of trying to think “for” men (which is not always a negative thing). But in many cases, creates a cloud of fallacies when it comes to what makes sense in our minds and the truth. Men have a tendency to live within the comforts of their man-coded world where communication is minimal, thus leaving space for a woman to make assumptions because subconsciously she believes you need her to.
“Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?”
I think it is up to a black man to provide an answer this one. However, based on references from male family members, friends and acquaintances, my assumption includes a variety of feelings such as fear of commitment (avoiding heartbreak for ego’s sake), disbelief in commitment (belief that men and women are incapable of truly committing to one another) and/or lack of preparation (wanting to understand his own wants/needs, unsure of his ability to lead and support a family). As for non-black men, many of them include marriage in their definition of “success”, thus treating marriage as a priority. Not to say that black men don’t, but I believe that non-black men take into account that marrying earlier means building wealth sooner and creating offspring sooner to continue their family legacy.
I meant to say “lack of preparedness” in the last paragraph.
You forgot to add a subquestion (not a word) to your mix, Champ: For #3, you should’ve asked why 72% of our babies are being born out of wedlock. Do other folks have babies out of wedlock? Hells, yes! (See: Hollywood) Are they having babies out of wedlock at the rate WE are? Hell no! Why do black men think we’re worth getting pregnant but not worth marrying? Why don’t black women think more of themselves than to let a dude bone them without a rubber? Why can’t we form cohesive family units? I understand people make mistakes, but 72% is NEARLY ALL. That’s not a lot of mistakes-that’s a whole lot of on-purpose. (waits for inevitable blasting and neck-rolling from unmarried folks with kids)
LOL, I think your question deals with what I mentioned above- an apathy towards pregnancy. Women and some young girls don’t care if they get pregnant. They may not “want” to be pregnant but they don’t take consistent steps not to become pregnant. I would guess this group primarily consists of young girls that see pregnancy as something that’s the norm in their environments and older women that just want a baby and don’t want to wait on a man to commit (since we’ve found men are waiting longer to marry).
Why do negative stereotypes gain so much popularity? I’m gonna guess because contriversy sells, BIG. It always has and it always will. It’s actually more interesting to the average person because average people live average lives and sometimes I want an escape from that. This is where pop-culture comes into play.
Very true!
1) I don’t know why it is. As a kid I was banned from listening t Uncle Luke and 2 Live and things like that. In my household there was Al Green and The Isley Brothers, and things like that; things that promoted love of one another and love of a partner. Over time as I got older I found all these things about “b*tches ain’t sh*t” and yada yada and was just appalled and frightened. Could this be what all black men see all women as? Still haven’t found the answer. Or maybe I have, but it’s just a bleak one.
2) This one made me laugh. I know a few of those lemon-faced women who keep on with the “all men are dogs/if my showerhead could mow the grass I wouldn’t need a man,” and trust me, underneath all that they know that their personalities are what keep men from approaching them. I think it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy; scared of rejection, they put on this front of being “bad and mean” as they think that a lot of men are more attracted to women who treat them badly (is that even true? Fellas, help me out with that one) and the men see this woman acting this way straight off the bat and reject her. I think women need to stop being afraid of being vunerable and open with men, and then the lemon-faces would diminish.
3) I think it could be the abundance of variety of women in addition to a little bit of fear of failing. A lot of us I think come from broken or discordant homes and don’t want a repeat of that. A lot of our parents were together/married early and maybe the men see that as a deterrent.
4) Equality. I’ve said before that I’m a “humanist” of sorts, and I think if it’s given the okay for one set of people it should be for all groups of people, and if not, then no one should be allowed it.
5) I don’t know why that is. It could be a way to hold onto the traditional ideal of what a black man should be, but black men are much more than their sexuality, so I wouldn’t have the slightest guess.
Question: Why has it become glorified to be a man’s baby momma more so than to be a man’s wife?
Question: Why in any given music video is there an abundance of racially ambiguous women and next to no black women?
As a kid I was kept away from those things two. They slipped in every now and then in places my parents weren’t in control. As a kid, I didn’t know what half the stuff meant. The beat got me dancing; the curse words kinda lured me in like most kids are to things that seem taboo. For myself, I think I just became desensitized to it over time because it didn’t really affect me.
#2- I agree, I also think many women I’ve seen act like that really don’t know another way to be. They associate not being aggressive with being passive, and see being passive as getting ‘walked over’. I’m not sure where the ‘meanness’ I see with many black women came from- however- I think we get a bad rap for it. We’re not the only women with bad attitudes, and I don’t even think we have them majorily, I just think our tend to be implemented with more aggression.
I know this topic for most people feels overly visited but I believe slavery and the residual race relations has set up our socialization habits in ways that we still have not escaped because we don’t realize they run that deep. For instance, black women have historically been referred to as “b*tches”, whores, etc by slave masters, overseers and post slavery by others to demean and belittle them and somehow justify the abuse, rape, and mistreatment put on them. That has permeated the culture over time and has allowed us to not be as shocked or uncomfortable when someone calls a woman this because based on that culture “certain women” may be deserving of the name. Its almost as if its automatically assumed black women are btches and you have to qualify to be respected as a woman in general. I think the first step to tackling these tough questions are firstly asking them(kudos VSB) and secondly be willing to step away from this second hand culture we’ve pieced together and really define who and what we are for ourselves.
“1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?”
IMO, many reasons:
1. In terms of oppression you lash out at who is closest to you. Same reasons why if a parent is missing, the child blames the parent that is there. I also liken it to a “relationship Reaganomics(trickle down economics)”. Once the “crumbs” of any benefit trickles down, those that are without are arguing and fighting to get there’s and to be seen. Don’t believe me? Well why will a street pharmacist contribute to making his own neighborhood worse? The need for immediate survival or comfortability overrides loyalty to folks he/she isn’t responsible for or doesn’t know. The “I gotta get mine at all costs” phenomenon (also happens with rich and middle class kids who subscribe to crime or emulating powerful crime bosses to be like them) or just fighting for these few crumbs. Hip hop was born out of those harsh economic conditions. If you research the early beginnings of hip hop the Bronx was a wasteland and footage very often shows families and children walking and playing around rubble. The first parties were in projects and economics was a huge part of that. Hip hop is the underdog coming up and saying I am here! I’m alive, I’m loud, and I am irreverent. Your rules aren’t benefiting me or my people so “eff em!” and the eff you mentality is carried out for righteous and unrighteous reasons depending on the person. I am glossing over this, because I am typing a thesis as is…but there are many facets of this.
2. The Stagger Lee Legend is very prominent in black culture, personified in views of black masculinity and hip hop. Hip hop is a genre of male ego and I have often side-eyed Caucasian critics who hated it, but never stated a reason why. If some are threatened by black male ego, then they may hate hip hop (thus my side eye). If one has a valid argument of “I don’t like the music, or what he/she is saying, or etc. etc”. then I respect that. Hip Hop is multi-facetd and the music does not always have to be “Boom Bap”, and the lyrics and lyricist are so diverse and complex you can’t chalk up a genre of music to some artists or a few artists. I can see someone saying “I don’t like the product of this artist”, or “I don’t like most rap/hip hop music I have been exposed” to vs. I hate an entire genre of music. That just sounds crazy, because in most cases there is an exception. A long history of black men being property and having no control, no power, not even to protect himself or his woman (history of rape) leads to an exalting of the Stagger Lee legend and the man who didn’t take no shyt. You messed with him, you were gone and he got off scott free. This is reiterated in black exploitation films in which the appeal to many black movie goers was that the black hero champion (or anti-hero…drug peddler/pimp) got his/her payback and not only lived, but was in a better station in life and was not reprimanded. Real life for many was contrary to this dynamic and that few was not shown in many mainstream films. Just like the blaxploitation film genre started off empowering, it became polluted because it made money and the message was lost in some films and it became a parody of it’s self. I think the same cane be said of some hip hop. Positive, political, righteous, affirming, strengthening, sensitive, and unifying hip hop is available, but are most artists who subscribe to that style making money? Is it the huge money maker? Is it what is resonating in pop culture?
3. Part of the appeal of hip hop to many is it’s irreverence. People finding more and more ways to say ‘ef’f you to society will bring more money and fame. Plies went to college but sounds barely literate or lucid in his songs. I also heard a rumor that after seeing a person in his audience that he felt was too young for his show he allegedly paid the kid to leave. Whether that account is true or untrue, there are many who subscribe to a persona because many visualize and fantasize being the person who is not accountable and doesn’t give a fugg. There is some freedom in that, although many are too ignorant to recognize the repercussions for that. When keeping it real goes wrong in more ways than one.
4. The women who are the topics of those songs exist and neighborhoods of people know they exist. Those in the worst neighborhoods and living situations are in contact with these women, and the song is speaking to them. Truthfully, women like this are not only subject to the most dire and violent neighborhoods. That Phd lady, rich woman, lady of privileged may be a humdinger too! In some cases, these guys may have just a trickle more sense that the woman of ill repute, but are not on a level to get anyone of quality because they still living foul themselves. They want sex, so they mess with what might look good, but what may not be good for them. Or they, like women, might have all the potential in the world and choose the wrong one and become jaded or bitter. Now this is not the end all be all, and there are so many nuances and varieties to this element. Just offering one example.
6. There is a lack of intimacy in black popular culture. Having to be strong, having to endure, and not addressing the stress associated with racism and it’s effects results in everyone putting on a front like they hard when they really soft on the inside. Showing softness in the hood is a no-no and can result in death. That and other psychological effects leads to a lack of intimacy. No one wants to be vulnerable and admit when they are wrong, let along when they care about someone or that someone’s actions truly, and deeply effected them. I posted once before about folks can back it up, drop it, wobble it, stop it, wiggle it, pop it, grind it, dump it when dancing but no one wants to slow dance to a love song. There was a time when we did and I still do. Plus, we…all of us, men and women, do our part to subscribe what is masculine, what is acceptable, who needs to “man-up”, what is “b!tch-made”, “p8nk-azz” etc.
7. Counter-culture is popular. It is popular to women too. The worst misogynistic artists have a huge female fan base.
8. The music business doesn’t often allow for something new and different to get through. Most radio stations have a play lists of the same songs. There are way more rappers than Drake, Weezy, and Rick Ross, but many dj’s have little power to “break” a new artists anymore or play any real music beyond programming unless it’s during a small time frame late at night or on a Sunday. The rappers we grew up on have not stopped rapping or putting out product. They all still do shows and do grown folk music: Public Enemy, Special Ed, Chubb Rock, CL Smooth, etc. etc.
9. Some rappers reppin’ in a way we most agree with don’t get that love at a show. This may depend on an area, but I have lived on both coasts and have gone to a show and seen a performer in the crowd and stopped him/her to say “what’s up” so that he/she knows they have black fans, and that we were in the building too. Some shows and performers do not get a black audience and sometimes the black fans don’t show up because of a level of cross-over appeal. Right or wrong it’s true. Plus, some shows you don’t know about…it’s on a special e-mail list where you gotta walk in a circle three times, say a password, answer a riddle, and get eye-scanned. (I’m over -exaggerating, but I missed Mos Def hella times behind this)
Sorry folks, this is another lengthy one and this is only in response to one question and there are other reasons to this one question I just didn’t list. It’s a complex question with a large variety of answers.
Sorry for the typos…
*theirs
Plus, please know that there are all kinds of people of every socio-economic status. So I am not saying the sista or brotha from the hood is only one way, and the wealthier sista or brotha is another way. I meant not to say “all” of anyone and to be qualitative of what does exists. Just because it exists doesn’t mean that that is all there is. There is a good and bad at every economic status.
1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?
In most of these songs, they never mention the race of the woman, we just take for granted that the race of the artist is the race of the woman in which they speak. Regardless of the fact that African-American women are not the only female consumers of hip hop.
2. Pass.
3. Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?
I guess this is based on some statistics right..well, using the “infamous” statistic that usually starts off all articles about black women and marriage if a high percentage of all black males are in jail or gay this makes sense.
4 – Pass
5. Through our words and actions, both black men and black women promote and take pride in the idea that black men are typically virile and extremely hyperheterosexual. Why haven’t we realized that the acceptance and promotion of this perception has many, many, many more negative effects than positive?
The same reason we haven’t realized that alot of the statistics, articles, shows and media driven propaganda about African Americans is bulls*^t.
This was a very Panama post, btw.
My very first comment would be:
In taking account the whole of your five questions; if they were indeed irrelevant and based solely on stereo types…Would this site be called “Two dudes talking shit on the Internet”? Would there be any reason at all to state that you are “Brotha’s”? Would you three (Champ, Panama, etc.) or us the readers for that matter consider ourselves particularly smart? If not for these very poignant questions, what would Black Culture really be like? Would it exist? Is there a need for black culture?
Off the existential and to reality-
1. Rap Music, Hip Hop and Women- IMHO, rap degrades women et al. Hip Hop doesn’t seek to degrade women, specific races, creeds, cultures or sexual orientations. Hip Hop is a culture; graffiti art, break dancing and b-boying. Long before NWA or 2 live Crew, I heard Ice-T use the word Bitch on wax, I heard Schooly Dee on the east coast do the same. They were telling stories, narrating a scene. The difference is purely artistic in my opinion. Today, Bitch is a common adjective for all women and far too many accept that designation. In hip hop narratives are common, the authors and subjects do not exist outside of the art form. In rap, the participants are expected to represent a sense or form of reality and the participants are necessarily voluntary but can give the author (noticed I didn’t say artist as they represent reality) creedence. However, rap is not some giant in the hills. Stop buying crap and crap goes away, just like most consumers stop buying Hip Hop.
2. Black women and attitudes- You start off by being so honest and then temper the tone for some unknown reason. Let me be clear- The majority of sisters have clear and present attitude problems, anger issues and are prone to volatile explosions. Its the truth! Black men put up with it and rightfully so because 9 times out of 10 we are the source of such volatility and most of the angst. They expect us to put with it, because we mainly deserve it. For cripes sake we allow each other to call them bitches and hoes and a host of other terms that should never be uttered. Black men are lucky, black women even look to us for love (which they rarely get).
3. Black men and marriage- Black men don’t marry because unlike their counter-parts across the racial spectrum, they simply don’t have to! The market does not command of them matrimony. They will get sex irrespective of their marital status; companionship is a guarantee and they rarely have to make a monetary commitment to rear children. Human beings are driven by value, commerce, the exchange of basic items to provide needs. Men exchange security and provision to women in exchange for support and loyalty and sex. Black women have not made their collective goods (sex, child rearing and support/nurturing) a commodity, they give it away on the open market and it has been drastically undervalued do to a flooding of the market. So a better question is why would a Black man get married?
4. The oppressed excuse- The most debilitating excuse amongst a bevy of excuses that black people use, by far the most dangerous. Most black people suffer from an acute lack of world history. A lot of us believe that we were the only people ever to be enslaved, that the slavery we endured is insurmountable without some form of a handout and Messiah to demand and receive said handout; and have no idea that Africans enslaved just about every other race on earth at some point! You don’t hear Italians running around crying about Hannibal pillaging, plundering and raping everything he touched. There are more civilizations on earth that are currently or have been in some form of slavery then not. All to varying degrees, from complete annihilation (American Natives) to Millennial of servitude (Asians) to down right having your balls cut off (Eunuchs). I would much rather have a little dignity and pride than to have the ability to walk around calling everyone in ear shot a nigga!
5. Black Men and sexuality- I think this question was rhetorical? What else could be said. The idea of black men as sexual beasts of burden has so many negative effects that can’t all be counted here. But I tell you what, solve the above and this becomes a moot point.
Kudos on your first statement.
I disagree with your #3. Sex outside of marriage exists. It’s not like black men become abstinent all of a sudden when dating women of other races. Here’s my take. Many black men seem to get married later because they’ve bought into the stigmas supplied by the culture: hypersexuality, homophobia, sometimes Christian values and loyalty to race in terms of breeding. Hence, they may not date outside of race as much as one would assume since they are bound by various sources of close-mindedness. I’m NOT saying dating outside your race gives you enlightenment, I’m saying it takes a generally open mind. Kind of like how there are black people 30+ that never been outside of Interstate 285 and proud of it. They aren’t open to seeing the outside world, but in seeing the outside doesn’t make them Gandhi.
@ Meteor Man
Thank you for your response and I appreciate your thoughts.
re:I disagree with your #3. Sex outside of marriage exists. It’s not like black men become abstinent all of a sudden when dating women of other races.
My point wasn’t to put the overall value of currency on sex (funny you picked that one key indicator as a commodity). I also included support and loyalty. So, While sex my still be on the table for Black men dating other races, support and unconditional loyalty are not! For the most part black men that do date outside of their race find that there are prices to pay for companionship and support, mainly matrimony. matrimony has within it some inherent cost.
So while you are correct, black men may still find plenty of sex outside the races whether married or not; they will rarely find the kind of commitment to the betterment of himself without some serious and often prohibitive cost.
Thanks again brother for your insight.
I’m going to question the validity of this, considering that the “support” and “conditional loyalty”, is only inherent with other women, and thus the reason why BM are willing marry them more, and is incredibly difficult to prove aggregately, and you fail to recognize that IR marriages represent a substantial minority compared to BM/BW. Also, socially, there just aren’t as many (social and material) benefits that would command BM to get married.
@DueceBravado- My statements are not hard to prove at all-aggregated or otherwise. In stating and subsequently attempting to broach the subject, we are voluntarily agreeing that Black men marry with less frequency than other races of men. As you stated Blacks tend to marry blacks more often than Blacks marry other races (this is true for all races). Therefore, Black men must find something distasteful about the prospect of marriage, when their main dating pool remains largely unmarried (43% was the last number of unmarried black women I read). The only other real factor to consider would be the number of unmarried black women that prefer some race other than their own, we could bicker over this number if you choose, but I think most reasonable people would agree that the figure would be very low (probably less than 5%).
So with 38% of unmarried Black women preferring to marry Black men and considering that their counterparts in other cultures have figures of say 3% for Hispanic women, 3% for Asian woman and somewhere around 10% for white women. I would say that there is obviously something that these women know that Black women do not! If I wanted to exaggerate the point I would provide the numbers of children born to unmarried parents where the closes we come to any other race is almost two to one! I stated in my first post that other races of women had conditions, mainly security and provision. So in deed if Black women had the same conditions the marital numbers would reflect such, sorry but numbers don’t lie. Women of other races clearly are demanding something in return for their sex, support and loyalty, that is all the numbers can show. I am not saying that other races of women are superior in any way, except coercion of a life time commitment. Remeber these are broad generalizations, as would be expected when the thread was started with the same assumptions.
Very easy to prove!
I think you’re making some strong assertions relating to the social structures comparing BW, WW, AW, etc. I think the grave generalization you’ve made is that BW’s by enlarge consider all BM’s to marriage material. The majority of complaints have been made to the opposite, and this is reflected within the singles/married statistic you stated. The BW’s that have the most marriageable (similar socioeconomic status) prospects aren’t lamenting the lack of “willing” BM’s to get married throughout the media or internet. I think this relates to the marriage rates of other races considering aside from Asian Women(who have higher IR rates) men make a considerable amount more, and thus would make it more beneficial to marry, compared to many black ones.
I do think you’ve made an interesting point but I think that conclusion oversimplifies the different variables at work here. Considering my experiences doesn’t any significant differences in the matrimonial demands of WW and BW.
@DB- With all due respect, I m speaking from a purely scientific standpoint, conversely it seem as if you are speaking from personal experience and personal environmental impacts. Therefore, we can’t find any common ground on this subject.
Youy keep mentioning the generality of my comments, when i have overstated that this is a general discussion. Of course we could both find extremes on both sides of the arguement. So while you may encounter sisters that do not necceassarily prefer Black men, I can piont to the figures of unwed Black mothers, who overwhelmingly have children with unwed black fathers. If you’d like to introduce other factors, that’s fine, but I can assure you from a statistical standpoint, none will be able to overshadow the gaudy figures. Case in point, let’s take fior instance the fact that 43%-46% of black women are not and will not marry, while the average for other races of woman is about 4.5%. The variance is simply too large, to dismiss because the reason for its exisitence is too general! You’re obviously a bright person and know this fact does not escape you…Again this not about better or worst or hate of any group, this is simply fact.
In my life experience, humans attach the terms “not that simple”, “mysterious”, “Complicated” to very simple problems when the answer(s) are not socially fitting, uncomfortable or telling of a personal failure. This actually is a simple problem, with a simple solution-introspection. There is no way that the black unwed parent rate can continue to rise and the ratio of black women remaining unmarried will lower.
Simple= Defining an issue and finding the root cause. it’s the implementation that hurts and is difficult.
You take care and be well!
Kudos on your #1. In all that length that I typed, I neglected that very necessary distinction.
I’m not sure if this has already been said and I apologize if it has but as a suburban girl I was often taught to “fear the ghetto” and to turn my head from all of the negativity that it had (even though I myself hadn’t experienced anything too different in rural or suburban areas). It wasn’t until I did a Race & the Media project last year that I realized my parents (and others) were believing falsities that they then taught me. unfortunately we were blind to the fact that it was a racist stereotyping (equal to black people should be lucky we brought them here as slaves or else they wouldn’t know God. Even though there is physical and recent evidence that would prove otherwise- Ethiopian Jews in the ’90′s). I’m embarrassed to say that if I was in a neighborhood and a black man minding his own business walked by my car I would 9 times out of ten lock my door and I still do if I can’t catch myself(its a habit). But I would lock my door maybe 7 or 8 times out of ten if it was a white guy. I was taught to fear the person who looked like me but trust the guy who didn’t look like me and had a historical history of being against me. Not just a scruffy, thug looking black guy but the average black guy who resembled my own dad and my brother- why? Was I the house negro that Malcolm X talked about?
So my question is why or even how did black people start believing stereotypes of black people from people who don’t like or don’t have the best interests of black people? Do we realize it is dividing us a people?
1. In the history of the recorded world, there has never been a popular music genre that consistently, enthusiastically, and creatively sh*ts on a group of women like rap does with African-American women. Why is that?
Black men are raised by black women. They are attracted to black women. What man doesn’t at least once dream about money, fame, and ho3s? Now if all the ho3s were white or latino (which many are in the videos), people will still complain because black ho3s or a certain type of black ho3 wasn’t included in the videos. Look… we’re talking about ho3s (in terms of the imagery). These “models” choose their life. Music doesn’t destroy society. Music is a description of the attitudes of the individuals in a society. People cried when they considered heavy metal as devil worshipping and said it threatened Christian society. Womp, womp.
2. Why are African-American women the only women on the planet where a good many of them (not all, of course. but enough to matter) expect men to be attracted to certain personality traits that are the complete antithesis of what most men are attracted to?
Women are like this -> period. Women always will try to tell you what you like as if you have no clue on your own.
3. Even if you control income, education, and background, African-American men still get married much, much, much later than men of other ethnic and cultural backgrounds (if they even get married at all). What’s up with that?
Marriage isn’t important as people paint it out to be. This a non-issue. With the divorce rates of young spouses, why wouldn’t you wait until you’ve developed more as a person? I don’t know one married person that says “I should’ve gotten married sooner.” They all say, “I should’ve waited.”And that agnostic to race.
4. Our history in this country has given us a bit of a “they’ve been oppressed, so it’s ok for them to do and say openly racist sh*t” pass. And, we’re not particularly shy about using it, even in jest (myself included). Anyway, we especially know how hurtful racially-charged insults and comments can be, but we continue to do it. Why? (Also, would you rather continue to have the “pass” or complete equality? Think about it a bit before you respond, though. When you think about the creative and communicative freedom the pass gives us, the answer isn’t so easy.)
because in general, one race of people don’t care about another race of peoples. The survival of our own race is our own responsibility. Personally, I don’t care if people of other races feelings are hurt. So what…
5. Through our words and actions, both black men and black women promote and take pride in the idea that black men are typically virile and extremely hyperheterosexual. Why haven’t we realized that the acceptance and promotion of this perception has many, many, many more negative effects than positive?
Understand the origin. This American culture is influence by Christian culture. The Bible is descriptive of certain mentalities that today SHOULD seem barbaric and sexist. The words of the Bible are quasi-static, so people take what it says word for word. Christian beliefs play a large part in the development of our people. It was forced upon us and used as justification to oppress us. We then initially used it as a source of strength. Now the culture surrounding it has evolved to fester sexist ideals and patriarchal structures. Given the state of black christian culture, there should be a movement to fully dissect this belief system imposed upon us. However, people are afraid of “being wrong.” A close-minded view of the world causes this. We are no longer loyal to our ancestors. We much rather follow the desires of the ancestors of other races apparently.
I was just going to lurk today because this topic is extremely heavy for the amount of work I have to do, I just couldn’t contribute. However, I’m going to humble myself a bit and ask for some clarification.
“Bible are quasi-static” – What does this mean? Not even in the dictionary.
“We are no longer loyal to our ancestors. We much rather follow the desires of the ancestors of other races apparently” – How are we not loyal to our ancestors? I’m a little baffled.
quasi-static is a term from physics. Kinda means something changes infinitesimally slowly. so slow that it never seems to change. So in terms of the words in the Bible, firstly, it’s translated, then re-translated. Things get lost in translation with ever translation. Also, the meanings to what is read changes slowly over time.
The thing about loyal… In my opinion, to not question an institution imposed upon us when it clearly has at least some play in the corrosive ideals within our culture is disloyal to our ancestors. I’m sure they never wanted us to use any belief system as a blindfold, but as a tool to open eyes and hearts. I’m not saying people should shun Christianity but dissection is an order. In order to fully teach the truth to future generations, one must first know the truth. And then one can consciously make the decision to accept certain features of it and past it on. Likewise, blindly accepting any belief system is basically a death sentence. Not saying everyone should learn Sanskrit and look for dead sea scrolls, but we control our reality. So let’s control how it affects us.
Thanks for the clarification. I completely agree with you, I think more often than not, folks take what they hear and run with it, as a result, people are walking around here absolutely confused and deceived. I think it takes extensive studying to understand why our people are in the position they are in. The reality is, folks enjoy hearing things that make them feel good, not necessarily things that will give them knowledge and understanding. Thanks for the clarification again.
http://www.theisraelofgod.com/
Man I hate when I can’t really participate (rhyme intended)… real quick tho (that’s what she said)…
To answer all those questions and more in one swoop…
Basically, (IMO- duh!) it all boils down to this… we are an abused race. And anyone that knows anything about abuse knows that when the abused aren’t vindicated/allowed to heal they take their abuse out on others and it becomes a cycle. Therefore, until we are vindicated the cycle will continue… Reparations anyone?
@ Yeah…So,
“Reparations anyone?”
Count me in…but I think we should get more than 40 acres and a mule- considering interest and all!
You know we’re going to have to split that with some Chinese people right?
Why? …not that I mind sharing, especially if it’s due to them. The Japanese got theirs.
Count me in too!
I’m white and Jewish. I found this website through my friend’s facebook page. I’m sure this will stir the pot, but it needs to be said. My people were oppressed for millennia. MILLENNIA. We were second-class citizens in the Greek Empire, the Roman Empire, Medieval Europe, and discriminated against in the States. That only changed about 20-30 years ago. You know what our prize was for enduring all that suffering? Ending up in a country that believes in meritocracy. It ain’t perfect, but it is the closest thing this world has ever seen. The sooner that black people accept that, the sooner that they will start to flourish. Now, get over your G*ddamn selves, stand up, hold your head high, and start working for what you want… We Jews have been waiting for reparations for a long time. They ain’t coming for us or anyone else.
Amen.
JEWLong,
I can definitely appreciate that other groups have suffered horrifically, albeit in different ways than African Americans have. One thing I admire about Jewish people and is probably essential to their success is their tradition of remembrance. African Americans were systematically stripped of their history, their language, their family lines…where do you think Jewish people would be today if they lost those things? Second, I would call the nation of Israel a form of Reparations…and the US has been giving it billions of dollars in aid and military support for decades while other nations and ethnic groups facing oppression don’t receive anywhere near the same level of aid and protection. Personally, I don’t think any ethnic group can claim they’ve suffered more than others; the human race has a short memory and the historical record isn’t anywhere near complete.
I get what you’re saying about reparations…and I actually don’t think they’re the answer. The damage in our communities is so deep that money alone won’t fix it. The healing has to come from within – and I think that’s the point of this post.
I come late to the topic, been unable to get to VSB until late today. Regarding #5 I offer the following on-line resources. This brother, Terry Porter, his message resonates with me. There is a sincerity and authenticity about him and his message.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html
http://acalltomen.com/
Damn, I meant Tony Porter.
why do black people collectively feel the need to take away anything that historically pained them in the past?… I know I’m not wording this right but Huckleberry and the agricultural history of Georgia paintings aren’t being taken down by embarrassed whites but rather embarrassed blacks. why are we so embarrassed at things that are not our fault? Don’t we realize that by whitewashing history we are forgetting our history?A history that no one else is going to stand up and remind the country about. A history that is already not taught in every home and is surely not in the history books that are written by California but mostly Texas. what would happen if we forgot about the holocaust or the other injustices done to Jew?. like how we’ve already forgotten about america’s own concentration camps for Japanese Americans
“A history that is already not taught in every home…”
True story: I have a new co-worker that has just returned to the workplace after being a stay-at-home/homeschooling mom. Her children are now in the public schools (grades 9 &7) of a rising middle/middle class suburb of a southern city that played prominently in the Civil Rights movement of the 1950-60s. There is even a world renowned Civil Rights Institute in this city memorializing the events/people, etc. Well, she has
Huckleberry Finn is being changed by embarrassed whites.
Really? I got the feeling White ppl were behind Finn & the slave paintings. I’ve noticed White news reporters love to claim something is “racist” without interviewing a single Black person.
Some questions I have in 2011 for us (African-Americans):
1. Why do we continue to create “black pathologies” around very basic human issues that every other group of people on the planet struggles with? Like we were not the only group of people enslaved on this planet. We were not the only group of people on this planet to have our culture or society erased from the annals of history. So what gives?
2. Why do we willing rush into destructive life situations, yet blame white people and society-at-large for our resulting consequences, pain, poverty, and suffering?
3. Why do we readily dehumanize ourselves and reduce our existence to nothing more that the color of our skin?
4. Why do we promote and celebrate harmful monolithic stereotypes of our community, turning them into urban legend?
5. Why do we worship our athletes, entertainers, pseudo intellectuals, and pulpit pimps? Yet the true activist and stewards go unnnoticed.
Black Woman’s Love Song by Elean Thomas
I sang you love songs as they dumped us together amongst the cockroaches and rats in the hole of the slave ship
I sang you love songs when in that stinking hole I helped you keep alive for the new world fight to come
I sang you love songs when they had us on the auction block and took you east dragging me north
I sang you love songs through my cries of pain begging you please don’t ever forget me
I sang you love songs when they took me for their concubine and took you for their stud
I sang you love songs even when I ceased to be their concubine but you couldn’t stop being their stud
I sang you love songs when you said “if we can’t beat them join them” and took up with the backra-missis
I sang you love songs when we got our heads busted together demonstrating for the right to speak to strike to politicize to organize
I sang you love songs when you cried upon my breast and I rubbed healing herbs into your wounds us both forgetting that my own insides were torn and shredded with wounds
I sang you love songs when we took up arms against the enemy to reclaim our dignity
I sang you love songs even as you disclaimed our child conceived from your hasty seed shot into my womb on a one-day furlough
I sang you love songs after the war when we worked together to rebuild a whole people and a free country
I sang you love songs when you said I was no longer bright enough or good enough to attend the State dinners you were now being invited to
I keep sing you love songs as hate-songs threaten to smother my very soul
I sing you love songs Black-man so you can understand that I want you strong beside me Singing me love songs too.
@H1
To your question of ownership: We don’t own because the importance of ownership is not stressed in our communities. In addition, the inequities of lending practices make it more difficult for our people to properly finance a business endeavor. Combining this with some of the tax breaks and, in all honesty, shady practices of and incentives for other groups, we are at a decided disadvantage. Some people just don’t want to work that hard bruh.
As to the questions about education, that’s more about envirionment and home life than anything else. If the only time you speak to your children is to yell, curse at them and tell them to shut up then you shouldn’t be surprised when THAT is the behavior that they emulate going forward. There is no one group that is at a disadvantage when it comes to an ABILITY to learn. Those in higher social classes feel a combination of pressures from those beneath them that bully them for actually caring and their families that encourage them to do more. It’s not an enviable position.
I’d like to add that we try to do in one generation what others have done over several and when resources like land were more abundant.
I think this may be my first comment on VSB. Love the topic. Here are my thoughts on a few issues
#1. One can argue that the black man is and has been the most oppressed man in the human race. He has been stripped of his manhood by white men, white women and it pains me to say this, but sometimes black women too. And when oppressed, a man feels powerless. One way to regain that power, sadly, is to oppress someone else. Successful rappers, most, but not all of whom are black, know they can degrade black women and…..sadly we will still listen to AND BUY their music and LOVE them anyway. White men aren’t going to let a rapper make it to platinum over and over again by consistently degrading white women.
#2. I’m not sassy. I’m single. My linesisters and other women I know who are “sassy?” They are in relationships or married. *kanye shrug.* #nicegirlsneedluvtoo
#3. Black men have trust issues. Everyone has trust issues to a certain degree but if you compound racism and oppression ON TOP of just being cautious with your heart, its a nightmare! Rather than give their all to one woman, SOME black men would rather give pieces of their manhood to different women over an extended period of time. In their minds, it allows them to maintain “control” so that they don’t get taken advantage of, much to the chagrin of the women they are taking advantage of.
As of late, there’s become this ‘conscious’ awakening that’s making many of us sit up and take notice at the state of our union. Meaning we’re starting to acknowledge the decline in successful black marriages; black women are ranked high amongst the in ranks of newly reported HIV/AIDS cases; and we’re seeing more and more of our black men becoming incarcerated and institutionalized . Don’t even get me started talking about our youth; that’s an entire blog within itself.
With all the negativity that has engulfed our community through the years (i.e. drug addictions, abortions and teen pregnancy, ‘down low’ homosexuality, gang and domestic violence, and HIV/AIDS); black people are finding it ever more so ‘comfortable’ to blame everyone else but ourselves.
We’ll blame welfare(a device created by ‘the man’ to perpetuate a diluted form of slavery) for women having children out of wedlock vs. just admitting that some black women think its cool to have multiple children from multiple men to ensure they don’t have to work.
We’ll blame ‘the man’ for building more prisons than schools to ensure the cycle of felony convictions leads to a father/son reunion behind bars vs. just admitting that some of our black men willingly put themselves into predicaments that leads to jail time.
We’ll blame our music and the media for the slow decay that’s rotting the minds of our youth vs. just admitting that our parents are not raising their children the same as “big ma’am and nim” did when we were kids.
Black people will blame everyone else but ourselves. We will point the finger quick and ignore the three pointing back at us.
When will WE as a people say enough is enough, and stop finding reasons to blame ‘them’ for everything that’s wrong within our families, our schools, our homes, our communities and most importantly within ourselves?
1. Because after partying, rap had been about “powerless” brothers having a voice. Then the music biz got behind it and the people making the most money were the thugs, pimps, and drug dealers. These narratives fit right in to the preconceived notions that the largerst consumers of rap – white people – already have about black people, so it is a self-sustaining process of putting out the same old racist tropes. And, who do these stereotypes have power over? Not “The Man”, not society as a whole, not really anything except the women in their communities. Most of the faces of rap are black,so “their” women are going to be first in line to get sheitted on. Especially given the racial and social history in this country where black women were victimized by any and everybody. This won’t change because too much would have to happen: a. brothers would have to acknolwedge that they play a PART in the oppression of black women; b. non-black women would have to acknowledge that they play a PART in upholding a system that denigrates black women because, hey, that system benefits them; c. US culture as a whole would have to work to stop perpetrating certains beliefs and stereotypes of black culture and people (notice how a positive black movie will NEVER ever be considered REAL, no matter how much it reflects the lives of black Americans. Everything is the exception unless it’s about downtrodden, violent, depraved, and/or poor black people in the inner city). You see that happening anytime? No.
2. They are raised that way. Most women I know were told to go to school, get a job, be successful, and then they would get a good man. Even the ones with fathers in the home had this teaching shoved down their throats. I have very good friends that are telling this to their young daughters. Not to say that we need to stop pushing women to fulfill all their dreams and potential. However, black women are not culturally encouraged to be soft, to be feminine, to be dependent, not even by men. Unless, of course, they are telling us that the success we were pushed to have, by any and everybody, is there very thing keeping us from getting a man. Who, let’s face it, probably won’t have the same level of success, is statistically more likely to bounce at any time, and is statistically more likely not to pay child support or alimony after your relationship is over. Oh, and nevermind the women who embody the traits that black men, as a group, say they are looking for, and these women get BURNED. And no, all these dudes weren’t ray-rays and pookies. Most of the women I know who fall into this category were dating college-educated (or in college), relatively nice dudes who took these women for granted (see #3 for why).
3. In addition to not being encouraged to get married (most dudes are encouraged to sow their wild oats for years and years and years, and then when they get to be the old man in the club to find a pure virginal woman to settle down with), black men also suffer from an inflated sense of their own worth. I know too many brothers, with obvious red flag relationship flaws (angry, hostile, bitter, mama-issues, racist, colorist, insecure) who are saying that they never met a woman who was worhty of them settling down. Um, no bruh. The woman who was worth it either stayed away or had standards you didn’t want to meet because you felt there was something bigger and better around the corner. I’ve seen this personally, and every time said brother refuses to examine himself and instead blames it on the sisters who are loudangrybitterhostilegolddiggingarroganttoouppitywontletamanbeaman…..
4. I’d rather have full and complete equality between the races/ethnicities and between the sexes. If you aren’t skillful enough to be funny without being a bigot, then maybe the creative industries aren’t for you.
5. Black women like believing their men are the best thing since sliced bread. Most black women are MOST attracted to a “black” phenotype and way of being (whatever that means). And, black women have (often against their own best interests) continued to try to find any and every way to uphold them positively. So, yeah, your average black man might not have as much money/influence/power as a white man, but darn it if he isn’t more sexy/wellhung/etc. Black men, historically stripped of all power except their ability to woo and bed women, latched on to this stereotype. I think sisters feel a stronger sense of betrayal – and certainly suffer a stronger backlash – when speaking against black men, even if speaking against “them” is the right thing to do, so they aren’t really going to try to change it. Black men don’t want to let go of a “positive” stereotype that gives them power and agency, even if the stereotype hurts them.
@BeOnIt, I MUST congratulate you on this posting (the realest I’ve seen here thus far). And ask if you would be so kind as to allow me to use your words of wisdom in my blog? Absolutely phenomenal!! I couldn’t have said it any better myself.
1. Call it a bunch of gentlemen oppressed for generations finally having something of their own, and unfortunately the power of the voice that comes with it is used to oppress the very women that we should uphold, cherish and protect.
2. You got me there. I’m a guy constantly confounded by
A. Women who seem to hate themselves and each other
B. Women who don’t have role models except for the video girl that is shaking her thang thang while a credit card slides through the split (Tip Drill)
C. Women who are heralded continually for superficial qualities
D. Women who have been abused and mistreated emotionally, physically, etc
E. Women who have just not seen enough in the BM to constitute giving a BM a fair shake.
Walls go up. She may have a child someday… Rinse and repeat.
3. Speaking for myself as a SBM turning 32 with a few things to be proud of, I can say I’m not married because I refuse to settle for a woman with issues or a woman who will drag me down or a woman who simply doesn’t know how to be a woman or love me. When I find her, I’ll marry her. I have done enough sewing of the oats and I gotta say I like the stability of a relationship much better. That said, I will not stay in a relationship where one or more of us are unhappy. Life is too short to be in a situation where you rather work late or go to a bar or seek another’s company than go home to your own woman. I want to go home to my woman ideally. Other guys I can’t speak on really.
4. While I feel this isn’t completely exclusive to our race, I think that it is an issue and the problem is that its so deeply entrenched in our cultural make up that while some may strive to overcome referring to ourselves and others negatively… to others they will always be perceived as that which the aforementioned try to stay away from. Some people just will never change. Its all about how you were raised. I tend to see this less with Caribbean black people. Unless the youth are trying to “assimilate” which really, all youth do. The idea should be, as you mature and learn better, you do better.
5. Another holdover from slavery and the slave mindset in that the strongest and most virile men were prized possessions and were more likely to have strong healthy children. Also not exclusive to our race. I think many cultures perceive a more manly guy to be the guy to father children with. Where it becomes a potentially negative thing is when Hollywood and the rest of the media continually push only one image and the image is either a thug/drug dealer/pimp/or womanizer (standard demonizing). That coupled with the idea of marriage not being the primary objective on a BMs mind spells trouble.
It’s simply not true that black women are “world reknowned” for being loud and obnoxious. How do I know? I travel. A lot.
The loud and obnoxious black woman meme is an American thang, specifically, the United States of.
If you say that African AMERICAN women have that reputation in the United States, then yeah.
But world-wide? No. They do not have that reputation.
There is however a reputation that follows American tourists around the globe.
It is simply not true that black women are world famous for being loud and obnoxious.
How do I know? I travel. A LOT.
That is a very USA specific meme.
Okay, time to get shot down.
I think it’s fairly well-established that people from Africa – not necessarily all West-Africans – are about 1 standard deviation lower in IQ than people from Europe or NE Asia. Cue the charges of “Racism”!
Biology is a harsh mistress. It makes absolute sense that there would be differences in personality and intellectual traits across population groups; biology absolutely demands that this be true. If average height can vary, then average IQ can vary. Genetic variation doesn’t stop when you get to the brain. Everyone who studies biology knows this. We’re just not allowed to talk about it.
However, even if this is true – and I’ve read enough to suspect that it is, despite the bleatings of the Blank-Slatist left– it’s also irrelevant.
I make this point to racists all the time. Here it is:
- Averages are not absolutes. Just because there are fewer black Einsteins (or non-Jewish Einsteins, I might point out), doesn’t mean there aren’t ANY black Einsteins.
- Even retarded or dumb individuals are accorded all rights given to smart ones in this society. Hence: makes no difference, you always get to sit wherever you want on the bus.
- If some groups are more violent, then those particular individuals who are more violent or acting-out get punished. Some members of those groups won’t be acting out. They shouldn’t be punished. Note that some of these groups may be genetically-influenced, some culturally influenced, but most will be both.
- Smart blacks have more in common with smart whites. My sister married a black man. They’re both extremely smart (or, at least, very well-educated). They have two very smart kids. Half-black (which here means all-black). I suspect they *both* have “SMART” genes. Being black didn’t make my brother-in-law stupid.
Andean people are stocky, large-chested for breathing rarefied air and apparently very cautious. Eskimos have a second layer of skin and fat. Natives can’t digest alcohol as well as others. Southern Chinese tend to be short and thin. Northern Chinese tend to be tall and tough. Northern Asians are demonstrably more intelligent on average than South-East Asians – the same curve you see from Congo to Germany. Does this make a Thai man less human?
This is the point. If science is increasingly producing reliable statistical data that can’t be denied, and it’s doing this at a shocking rate, we can ADMIT this – and suffer no harm to ourselves or our communities.
If stupid white people use this as a method to oppress black Americans, then they need to be reminded of something:
We’re individuals, first. A smart black man deserves the same respect that a smart white man does. If there are fewer of them, on average, it’s utterly irrelevant.
We count as individuals. Not groups.
That said, honest discussions of this – and of human biology, for example when it comes to the profound differences between men and women – don’t have to lead to a New Holocaust or Segregation.
Our ancestors were all products of different environments. All groups had slightly different social/environmental/cultural/economic factors that affected the reproductive success of its members. To expect us to all be the same is silly.
Rights accrue to us via our collective humanity.
I think it’s fairly well-established that people from Africa – not necessarily all West-Africans – are about 1 standard deviation lower in IQ than people from Europe or NE Asia. Cue the charges of “Racism”!
This is not true…
http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wicherts2009.pdf
Why do Afro-Caribbeans and Afro Americans have higher IQs on avg than Black Africans if studies have shown Euro admixture does not enhance IQ?
All Brains Are the Same Color
By RICHARD E. NISBETT
Published: December 9, 2007
JAMES WATSON, the 1962 Nobel laureate, recently asserted that he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa”… “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — whereas all the testing says not really.”
…The first notable public airing of the scientific question came in a 1969 article in The Harvard Educational Review by Arthur Jensen, a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley. Dr. Jensen maintained that a 15-point difference in I.Q. between blacks and whites was mostly due to a genetic difference between the races that could never be erased. But his argument gave a misleading account of the evidence. And others who later made the same argument — Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray in “The Bell Curve,” in 1994, for example, and just recently, William Saletan in a series of articles on Slate — have made the same mistake.
In fact, the evidence heavily favors the view that race differences in I.Q. are environmental in origin, not genetic.
The hereditarians begin with the assertion that 60 percent to 80 percent of variation in I.Q. is genetically determined. However, most estimates of heritability have been based almost exclusively on studies of middle-class groups. For the poor, a group that includes a substantial proportion of minorities, heritability of I.Q. is very low, in the range of 10 percent to 20 percent, according to recent research by Eric Turkheimer at the University of Virginia. This means that for the poor, improvements in environment have great potential to bring about increases in I.Q.
In any case, the degree of heritability of a characteristic tells us nothing about how much the environment can affect it. Even when a trait is highly heritable (think of the height of corn plants), modifiability can also be great (think of the difference growing conditions can make).
Nearly all the evidence suggesting a genetic basis for the I.Q. differential is indirect. There is, for example, the evidence that brain size is correlated with intelligence, and that blacks have smaller brains than whites. But the brain size difference between men and women is substantially greater than that between blacks and whites, yet men and women score the same, on average, on I.Q. tests. Likewise, a group of people in a community in Ecuador have a genetic anomaly that produces extremely small head sizes — and hence brain sizes. Yet their intelligence is as high as that of their unaffected relatives.
Why rely on such misleading and indirect findings when we have much more direct evidence about the basis for the I.Q. gap? About 25 percent of the genes in the American black population are European, meaning that the genes of any individual can range from 100 percent African to mostly European. If European intelligence genes are superior, then blacks who have relatively more European genes ought to have higher I.Q.’s than those who have more African genes. But it turns out that skin color and “negroidness” of features — both measures of the degree of a black person’s European ancestry — are only weakly associated with I.Q. (even though we might well expect a moderately high association due to the social advantages of such features).
During World War II, both black and white American soldiers fathered children with German women. Thus some of these children had 100 percent European heritage and some had substantial African heritage. Tested in later childhood, the German children of the white fathers were found to have an average I.Q. of 97, and those of the black fathers had an average of 96.5, a trivial difference.
If European genes conferred an advantage, we would expect that the smartest blacks would have substantial European heritage. But when a group of investigators sought out the very brightest black children in the Chicago school system and asked them about the race of their parents and grandparents, these children were found to have no greater degree of European ancestry than blacks in the population at large.
Most tellingly, blood-typing tests have been used to assess the degree to which black individuals have European genes. The blood group assays show no association between degree of European heritage and I.Q. Similarly, the blood groups most closely associated with high intellectual performance among blacks are no more European in origin than other blood groups.
The closest thing to direct evidence that the hereditarians have is a study from the 1970s showing that black children who had been adopted by white parents had lower I.Q.’s than those of mixed-race children adopted by white parents. But, as the researchers acknowledged, the study had many flaws; for instance, the black children had been adopted at a substantially later age than the mixed-race children, and later age at adoption is associated with lower I.Q.
A superior adoption study — and one not discussed by the hereditarians — was carried out at Arizona State University by the psychologist Elsie Moore, who looked at black and mixed-race children adopted by middle-class families, either black or white, and found no difference in I.Q. between the black and mixed-race children. Most telling is Dr. Moore’s finding that children adopted by white families had I.Q.’s 13 points higher than those of children adopted by black families. The environments that even middle-class black children grow up in are not as favorable for the development of I.Q. as those of middle-class whites.
Important recent psychological research helps to pinpoint just what factors shape differences in I.Q. scores. Joseph Fagan of Case Western Reserve University and Cynthia Holland of Cuyahoga Community College tested blacks and whites on their knowledge of, and their ability to learn and reason with, words and concepts…
What do we know about the effects of environment?
That environment can markedly influence I.Q. is demonstrated by the so-called Flynn Effect. James Flynn, a philosopher and I.Q. researcher in New Zealand, has established that in the Western world as a whole, I.Q. increased markedly from 1947 to 2002. In the United States alone, it went up by 18 points. Our genes could not have changed enough over such a brief period to account for the shift; it must have been the result of powerful social factors. And if such factors could produce changes over time for the population as a whole, they could also produce big differences between subpopulations at any given time.
In fact, we know that the I.Q. difference between black and white 12-year-olds has dropped to 9.5 points from 15 points in the last 30 years — a period that was more favorable for blacks in many ways than the preceding era. Black progress on the National Assessment of Educational Progress shows equivalent gains. Reading and math improvement has been modest for whites but substantial for blacks.
Most important, we know that interventions at every age from infancy to college can reduce racial gaps in both I.Q. and academic achievement, sometimes by substantial amounts in surprisingly little time. This mutability is further evidence that the I.Q. difference has environmental, not genetic, causes. And it should encourage us, as a society, to see that all children receive ample opportunity to develop their minds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/opinion/16kristof.html?_r=1
http://people.virginia.edu/~ent3c/papers2/Articles%20for%20Online%20CV/(38)%20Turkheimer%20et%20al%20(2003).pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/opinion/09nisbett.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
If your gonna come on here with a statement like that you need proof.
First of all I’ll say right off the back that I am hispanic. For the most part I am a lurker on this site. I think that this site is great, and does address many of the topics I find myself worrying about from day to day. Obviously, there is a high amount of intelligence, but sometimes I think the amount of generalizations is just as high… well anyways here’s my thoughts on the matter.
1. Although I think that the Champ is right, rap definitely is the most successful genre to rag on women, black women especially, there are plenty of artists out there who are from other races and other genres of music who create and instigate just as much aggression towards and objectification of women as well. A few hispanic reggaeton artists are coming to mind and well… and although most of the insults and objectification of women are in spanish, it doesn’t make it any less offensive. I have also read quite a few articles on a few white metal singers that go off on crazy sexist rants too: Backalley Abortion and InsaneClownPosse(?)… or something to that effect.
Anyways point being: I think that as consumers, we(of every race and gender) need to just stop providing the demand for all of these negativities in general. Its not something that need to be pondered on, these are just some of the cruel realities of today that need to be acted upon through opposition and simply not buying the damn product.
2. Well, I have to say that black women are definitely not the only women in the world who do this. Champ, if you take a ride through the barrio your definitely going to find a little of this as well. Any woman who has ever had to be on guard walking through the streets to get home, has definitely put up a mean mug. Its a defense mechanism. Doesn’t mean that there should be a 24/7 mean mug, but, as I am currently attending college and not living in the safest neck of the woods, you better believe I sport it pretty often. Obviously, I can only speak for myself on this matter, and perhaps its a justification, but where I’m residing a chica can’t get by looking all cute and charming. Girl gots to get some cojones and be tough!
3. Well maybe I’m ignorant on this one, but it seems like more and more people are choosing to marry later and later simply because of opportunity. Even in hispanic culture, the idea of family is being saved for later… well unless a surprise happens to come up. (Trust me we got, baby-daddy’s and momma-of-my-childs too, but usually their just called baby-papas, and mama-de-mis-hijos)
4. I’ll take a jab here, and I know it probably isn’t in my part to say anything, seeing as I’m not black. Yes, I agree, that black people have been oppressed more than any other in the history of the world. Yet, I think that it should be said that there are times when the generalizations seem to go too far, and essentially only create isolation. When seeing postings like: “Black women do it all” I’m sure that there are plenty of amazing black women out there, but coming from a border-running, 8-child-bearing, constant-two-job-carrying mother, I want to say hold on a second…. hard is hard. At the end of the day, the “who had it worse game”, is just ridiculous. Anyone who wants to hold onto their sob story that bad can take the gold.
5. I think that you (the champ) are right, it is extremely negative to hold anyone to such standards. Even though, these stereotypes are deemed positive by all races, I think the reality remains that it can create serious and extreme cases of inadequacy, and incompetency for those who can’t measure up.
I am not an expert on Black people, although I have been black for almost 27 years.
1. Rap music gives people the freedom to say and do whatever they want. There is probably more freedom in hip-hop than any other genre of music. This allows fools to be fools and black people that hate themselves to shine over an 808. All kinds of ugly ish comes out in rap music more than any other simply because people use it to be free. Hence, the B word comes out…a lot. But, there is more death, destruction, bad ish in rap than in any other genre, so it isn’t exclusively or intentionally misogynist.
I feel like the better questions are: why do educated black folks still get down to slob on my knob in the club? Why can you expect our college educated folks to be entertained by the exact same stuff that entertains the folks that never see the world and never make it off the block?
2. I think a lot of Black women feel like they have gone through so much historically that they have the right to be whatever they want and the world should take it. I don’t know what traits you are talking about specifically, but I think that the type of woman who acts a fool could have been taught that this behavior was acceptable and probably rewarded for it at some point. It seems silly to think that irresponsible, trife, black men wouldn’t have their equals in equally repulsive women. They were made for each other and that is why they exist.
3. Black men know that every race of woman finds them desirable so they play the field…I think. If this is the case, it makes sense.
4. We should have equality and people that use inflamatory language should be slapped with defamation charges. If some Jewish singer started using Hitler’s language to describe his folks, the Jews would shut them down. Black folks should follow suit and stop making excuses.
5. People think its really cool to be good in the sack. Why won’t rich white people with slave money pay reparations when they don’t have to? If you are winning, you don’t concede. Black folks hold on to this stereotype because our collective self esteem is so low. The girl in special ed classes with the big booty will wear tight jeans everyday because she knows that is her ticket to public acceptance. Similarly, blk folks will hold onto this until we realize we have something more to offer.
Excuse my sweeping generalizations. Thanks for the post.
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Hm. This was definitely food for thought.
****VSBglitter**
I followed all the comments in this talk. Good discussion.
First: I’m not black – I’m white. I’ve got little contact with lower-class black America, but lots with upper-class black Americans. So I’m going to throw in a different perspective. I’m an outsider.
Personally, my small-town conservative white Catholic family saw some radical changes in the last generation. My sister married a high-achieving black man: They have a happy marriage (for her, anyway – I have a different perspective on my sister) , and two beautiful daughters. The older one had problems at first but is now a star in school.
- My BIL and I are closer now than my sister and I; I know lots about his background. His family eschews connections or relations to poorer black America. His sister is now dating a white guy. She’s dated black guys in the past and hates them, a point over which she and her brother argue relentlessly at family functions.
- His extended family is basically uninterested in the fate of poor black America.
Now, before this sounds like criticism, I want to point out a few things:
- Rich white America is uninterested in the fate of poor white America. There’s no solidarity there, either.
- There’s no sense of entitlement like the entitlement complexes of rich White people.
- Rich black people have similar levels of Entitlement Complex
- From what I can see, AA and preferential treatment largely benefit a tiny, largely female Black Upper Middle Class. They leave most poor urban blacks poor.
- The black upper-classes talk more about racism and the barriers they face, while in fact they face fewer and fewer barriers of any kind. There seems to be more resentment among them than among the poor, and this has been pointed out to me by other black Americans.
Essentially, the more privileged you are, the more hard-done-by you feel.
- Black culture is largely ghetto culture, publicly. And it’s incredibly toxic and dysfunctional. And yet, of course, in the way criminal and subversive behavior is always attractive, it’s also hypnotically attractive to young people of all races: It’s Cool to be an Asshole, basically, and the women love it, too. So white kids mimic it, Asian kids mimic it, and Indian kids mimic it.
I have to second Obsidian: I noticed how some of the commenters tried to block talk right away. I understand it and I think I know the source:
- We’re all taught that we’re all Born Equal. We have equal chances.
This is absurd. We have a mix of environmental and genetic disadvantages and advantages. They play together. We either lose out or win or both. Actual equality of outcomes is never in the cards. Life is like that. Many species of animal are extinct: Oh well.
- The Blank Slate: For us to be deserving of Equal Treatment, we must be all basically equal at birth. Some can’t be smarter or faster or stronger than others. The commenter objecting to Obsidian was coming form this, as a sub-text. I used to, too.
Basic false premise, and I’m with Obsidian here: A dumb white kid deserves the same chance to prove himself as a smart white kid; they both need to eat, they need shelter, they need affirmation, they need a chance at life.
We’re allowed to vary in characters by culture, genetics or group and *STILL* be accorded equal treatment. That’s the mistake the Liberals in the fold make: they equate equality of birth with deserving equality of treatment. It’s absurd and dangerous.
My personal experience:
- Black men tend to be fine. Actually, I love dealing with them; don’t call them “Nigger” and be an asshole, and they’re Men like anyone else. Whether I’m working wuth them – I work in media, so I work with them a lot – or being served in restaurants or getting a guy to fix my car or working FOR one (which has happened frequently enough) – they tend to be the same as white Americans. IN FACT, they may be easier to deal with: If you’re not an asshole, and don’t try to pretend to be a brother, and don’t try to be to PC, actually, they respect you more and you get more accomplished. The men tend to be great.
- Women: Black women in any position of authority tend to be incredibly hard to deal with. Actually, this is universally true of women. They tend to be HARDEST on other women: There’s no female solidarity. I’ve seen women tear each other apart. The myth of female gentility is a myth.
But black women in officialdom scowl, are more or less always grouchy, complain about minor things, are often wholly absorbed in minor power scuffles, and are more or less unpleasant to everyone – not just white guys like me. I have no idea why this is. It’s an observation.
There might be something to what Obsidian says about black women being described a certain way in the media. They’re more masculine: More aggressive: Less tolerant: And pushier.
I suspect this is all cultural.
And before everyone calls me a racist: I’m just providing some observations and background. This is what outsiders see, by and large. My observations gel with what others “of my kind” see. Even racists often admit that black guys they interact with are largely stand-up, normal guys with few issues and are easy to deal with and interact with and are generally okay.
Of course, the troublemakers are often in prison.
Therefore, next comment.
- I don’t find the notion that there are general group differences in IQ very controversial. I have a background in molecular genetics and evolutionary theory. If height, hair color, disease resistance and tensile muscle strength vary by hereditary factors, then it’s a no-brainer that something as crucial as human intelligences or psychological tendencies can be heavily influenced by genes.
I come to this not from a racist background; I was the height of “blank – slate” -ist liberal aficionados until I went to school. Start separating breeding populations of any animal and you get variance in inherited traits, including things like psychological outlook and behaviors. Mingle the populations and these differences start to disappear. Humans are animals exactly like cockroaches or dogs: we respond the same way to drift, genetic selection and sexual selection.
Denying this possibility is perverse and it denies the fundamental biological nature of human existence.
The actual *fact* of these variances have to be established. Humans are remarkably similar to each other- so we need good evidence. Also , we have culture, which profoundly changes the game. Separating what’s culture from what’s genes – or what’s both – is really, really hard.
- I Argue that evidence suggests that there are many kinds of intelligence; the human brain is “modular” to a degree. The ability for some autistic people to do bizarre arithmetic and others to perform musical feats at astonishingly young ages points to this sort of thing. Same goes for language- learning abilities, etc.
This is what white people see:
- A small segment of the black population more or less identical to whites.
- A huge section that seems criminal, more or less incapable of looking after itself, bent on murdering each other and fighting for scraps and bits of fluff that seem irrelevant.
- General failures at school, beyond a hyper-educated elite who can often be profoundly successful and are super-smart
- A strong sense of entitlement, such that they’re the only American population that feels as if they’re owed. They may in fact be owed: but this translates badly for internal culture and allows people to excuse bad behavior. Actually being owed is irrelevant for the effect.
- Black women benefit most from AA and education; black men are left out. In fact as a class, black women seem to utterly dominate the public sector, and like most women, are not well-represented in proportional numbers in the private sector.
My argument: This isn’t a black thing. It’s a female thing. As a rule, women tend to gravitate towards people-interaction jobs, in every culture and every economy and in every school and throughout time. It’s absolutely gendered. Probably a result of the differing needs of males and females in the mating market: It’s genetic. It’s not a rule, but a trend.
With AA, black women were catapulted to the top of the preferential heap. This meant government jobs, or service-related jobs. Why? You can’t be promoted as an engineer without being a devoted, geeky nerd. Virtually no women, black or otherwise, feel the impulse to devote themselves to abstract things, even if they have the skills. It’s just hard to get women to do math, even when they’re naturally talented.
But gov jobs and the public sector are the perfect ground for AA: You can create endless jobs by raising taxes or borrowing money (until the well runs dry); the ideology that women are more oppressed than men, and blacks more than anyone else, means that black women move to the front of the line; and this breeds a profound sense of entitlement.
So: Lots of black women in jobs that basically anyone could do. Really high-level jobs that require technical skills aren’t open to AA; it means that few women ever make it there. Virtually no black women work in any technical field.
In essence, AA has screwed the black lower classes, by serving middle-class aspirations almost wholly, and has more or less favored black women over black men, to the disadvantage of both.
In a real sense, modern social policies appear to have driven many wedges between black male and female culture. Reading this blog, I can see it even in the different tones that black women and men use. As an outsider, it’s fascinating.
Also sad.
I’ve worked in Africa. I’ve stayed in SA for months; I’ve worked in East Africa and I’ve traveled in central Africa.
Despite wars, civil unrest, the near-total lack of infrastructure and history of colonization, I can say with unabashed certainty that there’s something relatively wrong with mainstream black American culture.
Outside of SA (where rape – actual stranger rape – is off the charts), there’s more community, more sense of social responsibility, and more focus on things like success and education tan there is in black America. And there’s a correlation:
- The less a population, through media or other comments, focuses on what they’re owed by colonization or outsiders, the more successful they are. I’m not saying one causes the other – just that there’s a correlation. It’s obvious to anyone who travels there.
- I’ve rarely seen children more eager to learn, more eager to study, and more concentrated on the future than I have in Africa. Damn, the attitudes in some places make African village schools look like poorer versions of schools in Japan or Finland.
Contrast that with black America. I think there’s a real and powerful anti-intellectual trend in black America. I don’t think it’s necessarily racial. I think it’s cultural.
But like white Americans, for Black Americans the rest of the world doesn’t exist or is irrelevant. All of the debate centers around White America – Black America.
A comparison with, say, Trinidad, Cuba, Barbados, Jamaica, Haiti, the Dominican, DRC or SA or Kenya is irrelevant unless you can get beyond the “America defines racial relations” thing.
Whites are as guilty of this as blacks. It’s an American cultural phenomenon.