the great debates

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nas

**flashback to 2001**

the champ was returning from the mall with a few of his teammates, listening to wblk and ranking the ass-to-waist ratios of hispanic sophomores on campus discussing scouting reports when they all heard a faint “f*ck jay-z” on the radio.

stunned, they killed their convo and turned the radio up, each of them literally awestruck as they listened to nas’s “ether” for the first time.

for the next few months, the nas vs jay-z discussion would dominate hip-hop america, its debate the main topic of discussion at every corner, cafeteria, dormroom and utility closet. everyone had an opinion, and everyone had a laundry list of reasons on command to strengthen their argument

thing is, for most people with a vested interest in the battle, this debate had nothing to do with which artist was “nicer” or whose catalog was greater and everything to do with public validation of their own personal worldview.

you see, in the heart of most nas supporters hearts (myself included), they really didnt care if the blueprint was a better album than stillmatic (it was) or if ether was a better track than “the takeover” (it wasn’t).

they just didn’t want to be seen as a jay-z person, because being the type of person who rooted for jay meant that you also stood for unadulterated capitalism, anti-intellectualism, pretentiousness, nafta, power windows, brothels, and the cheescake factory. also, more importantly, they didn’t want the “jay-z people” to win

never mind the fact that the real life nas is, by most accounts, an arrogant pseudo-intellectual assh*le, or that being dogmatically anti-pretentious is the epitome of pretentiousness, the debate was bigger than both of them.

it was a clash of classes, a crunch of competing cultures where symbols and principals take precedence over facts. where why you’re fighting matters infinitely more than who and what you’re fighting for. where carmen bryan is still a slut became hip-hop’s pattie boyd.

as i reflected on this, i began to think of other popular debates where the principal matters more than the actual facts, where where you stand depends more on your worldview and what each side represents than how you actually feel about each side, and a few came to mind.

mac vs pc

***despite the fact that my comp has more viruses than luvvies feet (and i live two blocks away from an apple store), i’ve stuck with my dell pc out of exaggerated cheapness principal***

nba vs college basketball

***seriously, if a person claims to be a basketball fan, this is the single most important question you can ask them. their answer (and reasoning behind it) will tell you everything you need to know regarding their feelings about race, politics, patriarchy, mimimum wage, p*ssy, womanism, the aclu, their parents, and free chicken***

natural vs perm

“destination cities” (nyc, l.a., atl, mia, d.c., etc) vs everywhere else

alicia keys vs beyonce

***even before the thundergoat and the camel got hitched, people who sided with beyonce in this debate also usually sided with jay-z. point being, we’re all frauds***

whole foods (and trader joes) vs local supermarket chains

kobe bryant vs all thats good with humanity

ok, thats enough from me right now. people of vsb.com, did i miss any?

—the champ

594 thoughts on “the great debates”

  1. Like being the first to post. Beyond the actual facts of who posts, first, apparently it is against some principles to openly flaunt it.

    I can think of several arguments, tax policy, gay marriage, what to wear tomorrow, all of these ignore facts as people pursue ideological arguments.

    10% of your income when you’re making less than $15k/yr means you go without food for a month. 10% when you’re making $100k/yr means you go without that new deck to your house. What stimulates the economy more? People buying food or people buying a new deck? What SHOULD we prioritize as economic stimulus, spending that enables people to buy what they NEED or what they WANT? That is the real discussion.

    Gay marriage will destroy the fabric of society. . . umm, if the fabric of society was whole, how do you explain them? Nature + nurture deez. More gay children come from straight God fearing families than any other.

    Why do I need to even think about what to wear tomorrow? The fact is, there is only one set of clean clothes.

    By the way, this post looks incomplete and sh*t.

    Reply ↓

      • @PrincesMo,

        Yeah, the general public typically can’t relate to anyone who’s educated in ANY mathematics field, and takes up a career in said field because the “math geeks” make it a point to not relate.

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    • @kamakula, I totally agree on the tax and gay marriage thing….and secretly…the what to wear tomorrow thing.. LOL I am more concerned about what shoes to wear than what Im actually wearing…last week I wore a pair of peep toe sling backs with these capri/walking shorts and a button down..apparently I misjudged the shoe in my rush to get out the door..the 5 inch stiletto heel is fine with long pants but a whole other spin on the outfit at the office….LOL lets just say I didnt buy lunch that day!

      Reply ↓

    • @kamakula,

      “By the way, this post looks incomplete and sh*t.”

      It sure does…I wasn’t sure if I should add topics to the great debate list or expound on the Nas v. Jay-Z battle, so I refrained from commenting.*

      *I thoroughly enjoyed The Blueprint (after I allowed myself to fully enjoy it). I still contend that Nasir won that battle.

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    • @ kamakula, I agree about the debate over the stimulus thing. My greater debate is gay marriage vs gay marriage ban. Currently there 5 states that allow and 17 states that have a constitutional ban. I’ve always felt my gay friends are great to have and they are alos human. Who am I to pass judgement and not let them just as happy and/or miserable as couples who are married? What bothers me more is that many black people are against it. Now everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however this is also the same oppression we have dealt with for centuries and still is present. Blacks say hey don’t leave us out but we can help out gays? Most women have a gay friend or maybe a couple of them who are a big part of lives in addition to many industries, most notably fashion, hair, accessories, shoes, food, and I’m sure people remember the whole metrosexual fad. People say I’m black and I’m proud not people respect that and their skin. What about gays and lesbians?

      Reply ↓

      • @Alynrochelle,

        “What bothers me more is that many black people are against it.”

        I think alot of it has to do with the church. Even the heathens in our community get some of their foundation from their more religious grandparents/great grandparents. It’s slow-going getting folks to come around and I think more inroads need to be made in the church (interestingly enough, the church is surprisingly open to gays when it comes to their choir directors. *sniggles*)

        I had a hard time with gay marriages and abortion (I was raised Catholic) but I made my decisions in favor of choice and legally recognized gay unions b/c I do not think the government should be legislating/regulating what is/is not moral. I’m no religious zealot but I don’t think it’s man’s or the government’s place to place themselves above God and make these decisions.

        I hope more people can do the same in time.

        Reply ↓

        • @iloVEGrits, Michael Eric Dyson wrote a great essay about major societal institutions allowing people who they are vehemently against take part in those institutions as long as they play a particular prescribed role. His major example was gays in the black church

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    • @kamakula,

      Like being the first to post. Beyond the actual facts of who posts, first, apparently it is against some principles to openly flaunt it.

      touche and sh*t.

      btw, you’re right. at 12:34am the entry was still (laughably) incomplete.

      Reply ↓

    • @kamakula,
      i heard this stupid debate yesterday for first time (gay marriage destroy fabric of society) and it made me sick to stomach

      Reply ↓

    • @kamakula,

      The capital/stimulus question is a great one… However where do you stand on it? And what does the side one picks says about them?

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      • @Sula,

        I advocate stimulus that helps people get the necessities in life. Tax policy that asks more of the well off than the poor.

        Many people claim that they are nice, good, and moral. That if the government was not already taxing them to fund social relief programs, then they would give more to the poor. That’s the big thing now with the fax tea parties and protests and Republicans, that government is asserting what should be the individual prerogative of a citizen. That our country started with the notion that the local governments should be strongest and as we move further away, the state and in turn federal governments should be weaker.

        However, and this is similar to arguments I’ve had with people who advocate a complete government hands-off approach to free-market capitalism, in the real world, people are not actually nice. People do not make decisions that necessarily benefit even themselves, let alone their community. When people and companies seize power for themselves, our governments and economies no longer work they way they are supposed to.

        I know I’m going off on a tangent here, but let’s examine the current Republican argument, that state governments should have more power than the federal. That the states are better able to decide what is best for their citizens than the federal government. I want them to tell me, which state passed civil rights legislation before the federal government passed the civil right’s act? Which state passed women’s rights legislation before the federal government? I think the answer is none. Even in states that were considered progressive at the time. None.

        So, history, barely going back 50 years shows me that I cannot trust state governments alone to ensure my life, liberty, and property.

        Now, going back to the economic stimulus question, a lot of those against welfare programs and stimulus that helps with basic necessities of life are claiming that if the government stepped out, THEN they will step in, but because the government is there, their form of protest is by NOT helping their neighbors. That is bullshit. Like when people who claim to be Christians say they will stop giving to a children’s charity because it removed the word “Christian” from it’s name. The hypocrisy is so thick, my head almost explodes from even contemplating it.

        When it comes to stimulus, I ask this question, in the current economic times, if I had $5000 to give to two people, one that makes $10k/yr and one that makes $100k/yr, who should I give it to? Republicans (and perhaps Conservatives) say I should give it to the rich person. And let it trickle down to the poor.

        Again, that ignores the realities of life. The rich person would likely put that money in savings. Or if they spend it, it might be to buy something they want, a new TV, go on vacation, etc. That money just further goes to large companies or hotels who already are in a good position to survive and do well, and barely trickles down to their lower paid workers. On the other hand, if I give that money to the guy making $10k/yr, that money is more likely to be spent. Spent on food, clothing, perhaps a car (used), a dentist visit, doctor checkup, credit card bills.

        Now, assuming that both people actually spent the money instead of saving it, we can assume that the net stimulus to the economy would be the same. However, if I gave the money to the poorer person, I’d have effectively improved his life, while the rich person sees hardly any change in quality of life. Giving the money to the poorer person has the effect of improving things in general for our society. . . a lot. The economic impact may be similar or identical, but the socio-economic impact is much different. Nearly nil when you give huge breaks to the rich, but astounding when you give the same exact breaks to the poor.

        What I like about Barack’s plan, which the Republicans complained overreached being a stimulus and advanced a social agenda is that he recognizes those things. That:

        1. Regardless of who you give stimulus money to, the net effect to the economy is almost the same.
        2. If you spend money in such a way that you help people who need it the most, you wind up with a future that is much better for everyone.

        When it comes to addressing what does the side one picks say about them, my answer is this. Those who have never truely experienced hardship and had to work their way through it, they are ignorant of how things really work in the world. And as such, their advice would always reflect that of a person who lived in the ideal world. So, I think it’s mostly ignorance and a lack of experience. There are definitely those who have a malignant purpose, but mostly ignorance abounds.

        This kind of thing occurs everywhere in life. Take a kid to school, you can teach him all day long. If he never attempts to actually work through problems where he exercises what he thinks he knows, he will typically have problems at test time.

        Same thing with engineering. There is a big difference between 6 years of school, and 4 years of school with 2 years of work experience. Experience, learning by doing, always exposes you to the big difference between what you think, what you’ve been taught is the world, and what the world actually is.

        The same applies to racism right now. So many people say stupid things, not because they are bad people per se, but that they don’t know.

        It is my belief, something that goes to the core of my being, that education has to be a combination of teaching and doing. If I could affect the political process in some way, it would be to require that our politicians spend a year working in various communities, dealing personally with their problems, not just hearing their stories, but seeing how a single mom struggles with one or two jobs and how that affects her ability to interact with her kids. To see how an otherwise smart person can destroy their lives financially because a lender offers them a mortgage that can’t really be afforded.

        Anyway, if you check out my blog, from time to time I have posts on these very issues.

        Reply ↓

  3. We had a Canibus vs. Nas debate based solely on lyrics. I was a Cani advocate.

    NFL vs. college football

    NCAA tourney vs. NBA playoffs

    NBA vs NCAA basketball

    Reply ↓

  4. I agree wit what ur saying Champ. It’s not exactly the actual content of the debate, but the principle behind the matter. You were also spot on with the Alicia Keys/Beyonce comparison; now i like alot of beyonce’s music (however devoid of depth and value it actually is) but I stan for Alicia Keys and pretty much detest everything Beyonce stands for (although I am strangely gaining respect for her alter ego Ms. Fierce lol). I would also add to this debate macs vs pc, i’m def a mac, practically allergic to pcs, and i do make judgements based on what kind of computer a person has. If I don’t know you vey well and I know you have a mac, then i pretty much figure ur prob a cool person (although at the same time u may have a heightened propensity of pompous douchy behavior). I tend to think that people who not only own pcs but stan for them are conventional and afraid of change. Now I don’t base my opinion of people solely on these factors, or even mainly these things, but I do store them in the back of my brain and they may subconsciously or not so subconsciously come into play later.

    Reply ↓

    • @PrincesMo,

      you know, i’d argue that with many of the debates, the sides are consistent and streamlined.

      like, i’d bet that many of the same people who’d choose nas over jay-z and alicia keys over beyonce would also choose whole foods over giant eagle or even walmart.

      btw, i have absolutely no idea what any of this means

      Reply ↓

      • @The Champ,
        i in fact do shop at whole foods/trader joes rather than the reg supermarket (trader joes more so now in these TET bc its so cheap) not particularly bc i’m into organic food or anything, but the produce is so much better and I am admittedly a food snob, besides there are so many nifty things in whole foods and tj, way more fun than the reg market any day!

        Reply ↓

      • @The Champ, in your post you lumped whole foods and trader joes together. i’d argue that it should be whole foods vs. trader joes. i’d choose trader joes ANY day (and still have money in my pocket at the end of it). i’m not a pretentious a-hole. i just like to eat healthy, and trader joes has a lot of healthy foods for the low. i have nothing against local grocery stores, and there are actually some things i prefer to get from them (coffee, milk, sugar, yogurt, pancake mix, etc.)

        i’m not sure why i took the time to write this, but now all of you know my grocery shopping preferences. good day

        Reply ↓

        • @A Plus,

          i’d argue that it should be whole foods vs. trader joes.

          honestly, i dont know enough about trader joes to really make a good argument either way. i just listed it cause there’s one 5 minutes from where i live

          Reply ↓

    • @PrincesMo,

      While I like the idea of Alicia Keys (talented MUSICIAN who writes and produces) and the content of most of her songs, she really bores me. I can barely listen to one song completely, so getting through one of her albums is impossible.

      Beyonce’s music is shallow as he!!, but she is entertaining…

      Reply ↓

      • @I was wondering….,

        Full co-sign. And other than the ability to play piano, I don’t think she’s super talented.

        Reply ↓

        • @Me fail english?,

          I think that’s where The Champ’s post makes sense. I don’t own any Alicia Keys CD, I don’t even like her music that much… but in a debate, instinctively I’ll pick Alicia Keys because I’m against what I think Beyonce “represents”…

          Interesting topic, Champie!

          Reply ↓

  5. Pop vs. Soda. That’s my contribution.

    @thechamp: This was one of my fav posts because you put both Shawn and Nasir on blast while pointing the complexities of their beef … And you’re right, they validated themselves with those records, and made a crapton of money.

    Anyway, because of the mac vs. pc thing, I’m going to introduce you to TMCY’s second writer:

    http://thismayconcernyou.com/2009/05/17/freddie-facebooker/

    And by the way, it’s POP. Not soda.

    Reply ↓

    • @thismayconcernyou, to you and everyone else on the blog… Its neither pop nor soda? WTF I never even heard these terms before..its coke coke for everything even things not coke….maybe if you bougie its a drink but never eva pop or soda

      but the coke vs pepsi debate is a hot one… no matter how hard I try I have to side eye a hard core pepsi drinker…I mean it is in NO way better than coca cola.. even their commercials kick pepsi a$$

      Reply ↓

      • @shay_d_lady,

        give me the side eye, then. lol. I prefer Diet Pepsi over Diet Coke. Reg. Coke, however, does taste better than reg. Pepsi. But I only drink reg. sodas in extreme emergencies.

        But to your point, in a lot of the south a coke is the name for any soda or cold drink. :)

        Reply ↓

      • @shay_d_lady,

        If it’s Coke, then why do 90-plus percent of Americans say soda or pop?

        Trust me, I did a geography paper on Pop vs. Soda in college. I’m well versed in this subject, and have at least one debate on it every six months still.

        lol.

        Reply ↓

        • @thismayconcernyou, Trust me, I did a geography paper on Pop vs. Soda in college. I’m well versed in this subject, and have at least one debate on it every six months still.

          so you polled all America? paper or not thats a made up unproveable statistic… LOL and its COKE ninja!

          Reply ↓

        • @thismayconcernyou,

          smh. I thought you were saying you wrote a college paper on this as a joke. I can’t believe of all the debates people raised today, soda vs. pop is the most intensely battled. This ish is like religion!

          Reply ↓

      • @Cheekie,
        Soda’s not bougie nor 2520 its simply correct, it’s not our (and by our i mean northeasterners and generally sane people) faults that you refuse to do things correctly/accept reality. And since when is it 2520, to speak properly, I’m sorry but is not our homie Barack (as well as any other educated/ well spoken/ intelligent minority) the antithesis to that statement. So go in the way of the light and accept soda as the truth, if Jesus was here I’d put it on everythang that he’d say soda too :) lol!

        Reply ↓

        • @PrincesMo,

          “And since when is it 2520, to speak properly”

          Never implied that which is why I separated the two with the article ‘and’. Two separate descriptions.

          And even Barack speaks slang. And he’s from the Chi so he says “POP”. And he’s the king of the world. So let it be written.

          Pop sounds cooler. It’s not everyday you get to use onomonopeia for a beverage. lol

          Reply ↓

            • @Kindred Smile,

              Thank you. Fellow Chi-heads understand.

              Also, to the above, it’s gym shoes. Sneakers? You’ll get tossed in a locker. Sound it out, it sounds like you wear bifocals and love cheese. Gym shoes sits at the cool kids table. lol

              Reply ↓

          • @Cheekie,
            Correction (said like dwight from the office): Barack spent his formative years in Hawaii and didnt move to chicago until he was 26 and therefore would have mostly likely formed his soda v. pop preference beforehand and they don’t say pop in Hawaii (see link below) . and also pop does not sound cooler it sounds incomplete, the original term was soda pop, you can’t just drop the first name and call it the second, that doesn’t make sense, like who would know what ur talking about if u just reffered to beyonce as Fierce, they would most likely get who u were talking about if you said sasha. And if the correct term is pop then why all of the “soda” related terminology, i.e. soda fountain, ice cream soda, soda jerk, etc etc…
            Link that shows soda vs pop usage: (note that in hawaii most people say soda, and also i realize that much of the map suggests that pop in more poular, but do take into account population density not just area, and many of the the places that are blue have the population density of -2) http://tastyresearch.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/popvssodamap.png

            Reply ↓

            • @PrincesMo,

              This long response is proof that pop is better. lmao

              He was born in Hawaii I know, but he’s more KNOWN here. I’m sure he says pop.

              “the original term was soda pop, you can’t just drop the first name and call it the second, that doesn’t make sense, like who would know what ur talking about if u just reffered to beyonce as Fierce, they would most likely get who u were talking about if you said sasha.”

              And yeah you can drop one of the names because the point of slang is to make it shorter than the original. And back to Barack, you can call him by his last name only and everyone knows what you’re talking ’bout right? So, your argument is null and void. Dirty pop.

              Reply ↓

            • @PrincesMo,

              Da fcuk?! I’m mad this map exists.

              I’d be interested to see a list of the “Other” terms tho

              Reply ↓

    • @thismayconcernyou,

      No “soda water” people in here. My college buddy’s Native American fam used to call it that. That is why they can’t rise as a people

      (I keed, I keed!)

      Reply ↓

    • @Miss Patterson,

      Facebook vs. MySpace is long over. Facebook dumped on MySpace like Buster Douglas did Tyson.

      Now, Facebook has some new competition: Twitter … and IDK. This one won’t end for quite some time …

      Twitter is shaking Facebook’s foundation right now. BTW, Follow me: @thismaycy

      Reply ↓

      • @thismayconcernyou,

        “Buster Douglas did Tyson”

        This fight recently aired on the classic sports channel. Watching it was like watching it for the first time.

        Reply ↓

      • @thismayconcernyou, there are a lot of folks still on myspace, which surprises me. it still caters to musicians, “models” and budding comedians. speaking of which, i should probably cancel my account (i haven’t logged on in months), so that i can stop getting friend requests from this weirdo who wants the password to my favorite pub.

        Reply ↓

        • @Miss Patterson, Patty Cakes, I am with you on canceling my account. I logged in the other day and had messages from weirdos with foot fetishes. SMH

          Reply ↓

    • @Miss Patterson,
      @thismayconcernyou,

      First it was blackplanet (don’t act like y’all don’t know)/ migente.com/ asianave.com (go ahead and type that in your browser), then myspace took over the game, then facebook came and (as thismayconcernyou said) dumped on myspace, and now twitter is monopolizing folks’ free time.

      So, it’s safe to say Twitter v. practically every other social networking site in existence.

      Reply ↓

    • @Miss Patterson,
      I feel like myspace is the seedy underworld of the internet, kinda like the red light district…it frightens me lol

      Reply ↓

  8. hbcu vs. predom white universities

    weave vs. the weaveless

    desperate housewives vs. the real housewives

    umm……i don’t know.

    Reply ↓

  10. So what the f*ck this topic got to do with male/female relationships? (My ghetto side talkin’) And WHY are you talking Music when you’re the Movie guy, Champ? Stick to the script please – and don’t give me that “multi-cultured” crap either, lol.

    Both of them (Nas AND Jay) can eat a fat one, cause NEITHER of them will EVER amount to Pac – bottom line – end of story, no ifs ands or buts. (You can try to dispute this, but you’d be wrong – period)

    Reply ↓

    • @RedBeanzNRice,

      Like the Tiger i remain crouched and silent in the corner…sh!t i gotta see this one play out…

      Reply ↓

    • @RedBeanzNRice,

      Well, if you think about the fundamental beliefs behind these debates and what you personally feel about them, then its kind of a quick heuristic for potential partner evaluation. For instance, if someone told me that he was a Dallas Cowboys fan when I met him, I’d automatically know he was a fan of b*tchassness, and possibly a pompous azzhole. Not to mention an idiot… who couldn’t lay pipe if his life depended on it.

      Reply ↓

      • @blackberry molasses,

        “For instance, if someone told me that he was a Dallas Cowboys fan when I met him, I’d automatically know he was a fan of b*tchassness, and possibly a pompous azzhole.”

        E-high five for you!

        Reply ↓

    • @RedBeanzNRice,

      “So what the f*ck this topic got to do with male/female relationships?”

      **quoting blackbemo**

      “Well, if you think about the fundamental beliefs behind these debates and what you personally feel about them, then its kind of a quick heuristic for potential partner evaluation”

      oh, and ummm, multi-culture deez

      Reply ↓

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