Pop Culture, Theory & Essay

The Difference Between Being a Role Model and An Example of Success

Jay is apparently doing the skirt thing now. Clearly, he is not a role model.

Jay is apparently doing the skirt thing now. Clearly, he is not a role model.

Last week I ended up in a back-and-forth debate about Beyonce and whether or not she was a role model. Somehow, Beysus manages to be everything to everybody and nothing to everybody at the same damn time. It’s amazing how polarizing she is and it’s mostly her own fault. She wants to be all things to all people. She wants to be able to make albums that are personal and talk about gettin’ nutted on in a car via her husband and still be able to be apart of campaigns to not be bossy. Which TO BE CLEAR, I’m not saying that one negates the other people. RE-READ THAT LAST SENTENCE. Just pointing out the extremes here.

I had to have a convo with a womanfriend about this “Ban Bossy” campaign. I honestly didn’t realize that women were outchea being called “bossy” in such negative fashion. But rock rock on. Take back the words. I guess. What it really sounds like is “Ban B*tch” but as was pointed out, it’s hard to make that work on a commercial and universal level. Somewhere, Kelis is kickin’ tires and lightin’ fires, big daddy #bawse

Anyway, the convo stemmed from an article written by LZ Granderson for CNN that specifically talks about the “Partition” video and lyrics and makes mention of the fact that Beyonce – the role model – was on shaky ground.

Beyonce the artist is above reproach. With 17 wins, she has only one less Grammy than Aretha Franklin. She has more than 13 million Twitter followers despite only tweeting eight times. And she famously crashed iTunes by releasing a full CD without any promotion.

However, Beyonce the role model is questionable as hell.

I’m all for handcuffs, hot wax, stripper poles, whips — whatever it is two consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their bedroom to keep the relationship fresh. But increasingly, Beyonce has chosen not to keep such things private.

Those lines spawned a convo that wove its way into Dr. Dre (not a role model) and Jay-Z (also not a role model) to Michelle Obama (role model), etc. But it ultimately comes down to what makes somebody a role model. To be clear, I do think that looking for people to be role models is a bit of a tired art, but nevertheless, this is our society (and every society). People become reluctant role models, outrightly deny being one, or seek the title (as I think Beyonce does).  Truly, your parents (or parent-like people) should be your role models seeing as they are the people with the most interaction and guidance in your life. But we all look up to people we don’t know and will never meet. It’s human nature.

So here’s my take: Jay, while a very clear example of success despite the odds is not really a role model. I tend to view role models as people who strive to show you the way to achieve and succeed in as positive a light as possible. Sure, Jay success is positive. And I’m a huge Jay fan. But you can’t divorce the person from the art that got him there. You just can’t. Same with somebody like Dr. Dre who is remarkably successful and rich who  has made the majority of his fortune weaving tales of rape and murder. I’m an NWA fan but I can’t defend nearly any of the music they ever released on wax. I appreciate from an artistic rebellion rapper standpoint.

But again, they’re great examples of starting from the bottom and now there there. Beyonce is on that line. While she’s clearly the greatest entertainer on the planet right now (FIGHT ME!) she really does want to be a role model as well. She wants to stand for something and show somebody some light. Which I’m all for. Especially after so many years of folks thinking she was a vapid soul just put here to look into the camera with a blank smile and say “I like good things because good things are great!” Personality was great. And she took it to a whole new level with this last album. It felt like her most personal outing yet. Which is also where I think she starts to tow that line too closely.

Granted, all of the sexual agency she’s exhibiting and sharing blah blah blah is coming from a space of a married woman who did everything “right”. She got married, had her kid, and her and her husband are sharing their lives with us…explicitly. And I’m not sure if that’ s role modelesque. Granted, she can make any music she wants (and does). And I get the argument of owning your sexuality as a woman. It’s just that the folks usually looking for role models are younger and I’m not sure I need 12-year-olds listening. Which they shouldn’t be.

I’m also not going to run the lines about the fact that lawyers and doctors, etc are all our role models. They are but they’re not perfect. But role models don’t have to be perfect. They just need to know what to keep to themselves and what to share, pretty much only bringing something to the table worth noticing. Which is why you get so many entertainers not wanting to be role models because they want to speak freely and shoot up strip clubs and be ignorant without worrying about destroying the minds of some impressionable youth. Though, saying you’re not a role model doesn’t stop people from placing you in that role. That’s the gotcha gotcha. I feel like most folks who are actual role models leave little in the way of having to actually debate it. There’s usually no question about it.

For that reason I think most of these folks (entertainers and athletes) are fine examples of making it. But role models? I don’t know. But what do I know, I’m lightskinneded.

What do you y’all think? What makes somebody a role model? Who gets to be one?

Talk to me.

Oh and who would be a role model? Yo mama. No…seriously.

-VSB P aka MR. I’M NOT A ROLE MODEL aka GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRL HE A 3

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Damon Young

Panama Jackson is pretty fly for a light guy. When he's not saving humanity with his words or making music with his mouth, you can find him at your mama's mama's house drinking her fine liquors. He believes the children are our future and is waiting to find out if he is the 2nd most interesting man in the world.

  • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com/ Ricky

    A role model can be flawed. I think that needs to be stated first. Not all flaws are equal though. Like a crusader for social justice being a bigot (shout out to Gandhi) completely disqualifies them as a role model for me. To me, a role model is someone with a degree of power or influence that uses it for the betterment of their community or the greater world. Someone who stands up to injustice qualifies as well. Rich people donating some amount to charity doesn’t count to me. Paul Robeson was a role model.

    • Val

      “To me, a role model is someone with a degree of power or influence that uses it for the betterment of their community…”

      I agree but it can also be the neighbor next door who graduates from college while working full-time. People who live simple lives are often the best role models.

      • Geneva Girl

        “People who live simple lives are often the best role models.” Love that!

      • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

        Exactly, any level of success can be admired whether the person ain’t sh t or not

      • panamajackson

        I agree with this. I think we try to place these titles upon people we view in lofty capacities. When really, that dude next door who puts his back into it every single day for his family can easily be a role model.

        • http://brown-c6h12o6.tumblr.com/ AfroPetite

          All of you guys are making me happy today

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

      “Someone who stands up to injustice qualifies as well. Rich people donating some amount to charity doesn’t count to me. Paul Robeson was a role model.”

      Nothing is more admirable than a person willing to put their career on the line in order to stand up for what is right.

      • Sigma_Since 93

        “Nothing is more admirable than a person willing to put their career on the line in order to stand up for what is right.”

        This is why Jim Brown and Harry Belefonte blast today’s athletes and A list celebs for not doing more. I applaud them for what they gave up financially to advance issues that were important to the race.

        • afronica

          Not too long ago, I saw a clip of Jim Brown on ESPN from back in the day. I was stunned by the depth of what he had to say and how well he said it. I had this really loud thought of “What happened to our current day athletes? Why don’t they seem to think like this? Why don’t they sound like this?”

          I’m probably guilty of some respectability politics here, but I don’t care. I was so proud of Jim Brown at that moment. I would love to see a feature length documentary on him. Anyone know if one’s been done? I didn’t see anything in a cursory Google search. Oh, and he was so fine in that old clip that he made my teeth sweat. Whoo!

          • Val

            I think more athletes were speaking out about different things until Michael Jordan came along. He refused to speak about any controversial subject. He famously refused to support Harvey Gant when he ran for the U.S. Senate in NC. Jordan said some of his fans were Republicans and he didn’t want to offend them. (paraphrasing).

            I think that Jordan set the tone for most athletes on speaking out for causes for most of the 90s and new century. But, recently a few athletes have been bucking that trend and bravely speaking out.

            • Sigma_Since 93

              It took some significant arm twisting just to get him to support Bill Bradley’s run for President.

            • afronica

              Hmm. That’s an interesting point. I remember the Jordan-Gant situation (gotta sell them J’s!). It made me think less of Jordan as a person. Great competitor, yes. Smart businessman, I’ll give you that. But he really seemed to have caught rich man’s disease.

    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

      Paul Robeson, eh? *Throws the R up*

  • BlueWave1

    People become role models when someone (usually a child) decides to look up to them. It’s really that simply. We can argue if its right or not all day. But that is a futile arguement. It happens whether we like it or not. Parents, presidents, teachers, pastors, etc. are role models. So are pimps, gangbangers, mob figures, and drug dealers.

    No matter what we decide to do with our lives, if we excel at it someone younger will look up to us. (Note: One can excel at the negative. For example, Frank Lucas was an excellent drug dealer). It is easy to do our own thing when we think it only affects us. But it is when we see others mimic our behavior that we have the epiphany.

    And lets end the whole “parents should be role models” narrative before it starts. Kids will always look up to people other than their parents no matter what kind of parents they have.

    • BlueWave1

      Just to clarify. A child can look up to his or her parents while still idolizing someone of dubious character. It is not an either/or situation.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

      In some sense they should, kids aren’t dumb and will grow hip to a parents bullish t. As a parent there’s a responsibility to lead a respectable life

    • panamajackson

      I agree that’s its not an either or, but I do think that your parents SHOULD be role models. Many times they aren’t and are more likely the blueprint for what not to do…

      As a parent, I feel like it is my duty to be somebody that my child looks up to. Of course she will look towards the stars, I did it, we all do. But I should also be in that convo just by virtue of my actions so that eventually, when thinking about who had such an impact worthy of patterning one’s life after, her mother and I should definitely be in that convo. I honestly don’t have a problem with kids looking up to celebrities so long as its not a stripper. <—-loaded statement

  • nillalatte

    Must every single aspect of one’s life be a ‘role model’ or can people have certain attributes that could represent role model material?

    • panamajackson

      Naw…I don’t think you have to even aim to be a role model to be real. I kind of view it as my same obligation to the Black community…I should try to live my life the best way I can without taking anything off of the table. Simple as that. So yeah, I think you can be role-modelesque without being perfect in every way.

      • nillalatte

        I like this. I think I’m going to start answering your questions with questions. :P

  • kidvideo

    Levar Burton taught me how to read…he was my role model.

    • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

      And now…the “Reading Rainbow” theme- as performed by DMX…yes, DMX.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0sU1aG7kBM

    • http://uphereoncloud9.com/ Wu Young

      He taught me how to fix a warp drive on a star ship.

  • ratchet d-Ibaka

    I have nothing intelligent to add to this conversation and duley apologize but my role model at the moment is Ibaka. He stays modelling for me, albeit unintentionally. What more can I ask, other than thank God our Fada who art in heaven for his gracious mercies upon my life, and that of Breezy eh?

  • NomadaNare

    I think the crucial question here (and the one that PJ indirectly asks) is role model of what? Who do we want our kids to be and who do they themselves want to be? I can’t begin to talk about role models before defining what people “ought” and “should” do, and that’s a much deeper question. Is Michelle O. really a role model? Why? I can think of arguments for and against, but both depend on select perspectives. Maybe we should talk about role models within the context of expectations and interrogate those as well.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

      That’s why the role model debate is so silly, its like for who for what? You like Flotus Flower Bomb, cool, doesn’t mean your daughter must wanna be like her. You can’t stand Drake, cool, saying you don’t want the kids emulating him is just disguised hate.

      • NomadaNare

        Re: Disguised Hate

        Is it really, though?

    • panamajackson

      Agreed…and Tristan points out how silly it is to really even have discussion…but it exists b/c well, people are role models for various reasons whether they want that shine or not.

      At the end of the day, most folks should just be examples of xyz as opposed of speaking for a lifestyle or what have you. Basically, the same argument against stereotypes. Role models and stereotypes = same sh*t.

      • NomadaNare

        I don’t know if I’d agree that role models and stereotypes are the same thing. You show me a person’s role models and I’ll show you what they value. You show me a person’s preferred stereotypes and I’ll show you their experiences. I think there’s some discussion concerning if a person’s values relate to their experiences or not but I don’t know if this is *decided* or not (sort of a nature vs. nurture thing). This is a longer way of saying, if they are similar, role models define a culture from within and stereotypes are definitions of other cultures from the outside. How often do those two idea legitimately match?

        • panamajackson

          I could have explained that more clearly, but I meant the principle. Role models are basically used to represent something we think to be true, as are stereotypes. With role models, we pattern ourselves after what we think of them to be true, whether its legit or not.

  • Val

    Beyonce is a role model for profit. So, her people have trained her in the art of role modelling for profit. (Btw, she’s also a Feminist for profit.) If there were no money in it she wouldn’t aspire to it. And, if people are okay with an empty vessel as role model, then Bey is their choice. But, if they’re looking for substance, Bey is not the one.

    • ratchet d-Ibaka

      Lol. I was waiting on your reply. #venom.

      • Val

        It only seems like venom because this truth happens to be a harsh truth.

        • ratchet d-Ibaka

          girl, I know you and Beyonce ain’t the best of friends. Ya’ll should kiss and make up over drunk in love!

          • Val

            What would we talk about? Lol

            • ratchet d-Ibaka

              feminism, business, dancing, nails, men….everythang!

              • Val

                I don’t think she knows anything about Feminism. She has people who handle her business. I’m not versed on men. So, that leaves dancing and nails. :-)

            • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

              Uh…surfborts?

        • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

          Beyonce could literally run 3 miles to save a bunch of girls from a burning orphanage, buy the girls a new orphanage and set up a trust fund for the girls to go to college, and you’d still hate her. She could give your girlfriend a kidney AND a liver, and you’d still hate her. She could literally start world peace, and you’d still hate her. C’mon Val. Stop. LOL

          • panamajackson

            I think I agree with Todd here. LOL.

            • Val

              You know, PJ, I really don’t hate her. What really bothers me about her is how cynical her stardom is. Like how she decided to suddenly include Feminism in act by quoting a popular Black Feminist on last album. She (her people) knew this would be met with open arms and more importantly no questions being asked. So now she’s some sort of Feminist icon without ever lifting a finger?

              • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                So in other words, because she didn’t appeal to high falutin’ tastes from jump, and probably will never do so, Beyonce is a Bad Thing. Whatevs.

                • Sigma_Since 93

                  Similar to how the Old Black regime hated that the President didn’t seek their blessing prior to making his run for the Presidency. Caught poor Jessee talking bout castrating O’bama on a hot mic.

                  • 321mena123

                    Was i the only one who smiled when he didn’t do that?

                  • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                    *applause* THANK YOU! YOU GET IT!!!

                    That’s exactly what I mean. I ain’t time for anyone asking to kiss anyone’s ring. We live in a republican democracy. No one is supposed to be any sort of aristocracy or nobility, full stop.

                  • Val

                    Actually Reverend Jackson was right about Obama. He does condescend to Black folks. Otherwise I don’t really get your point.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      The point is Mrs. Carter didn’t seek the approval of the “high falutin’” Black Feminists before she did her thing; this is similar to what the President did. You share the same sentiment that the Old Black regime holds / held about the President when you state she / he hasn’t put in sufficient work in the field to covet a bigger platform.

                    • Val

                      Sometimes in a conversation one party has a particular point they are trying to make. And, even if that point really isn’t relevant to the conversation they will keep trying to make that point.

                      You seem to be making the point that Bey didn’t receive approval from the old guard Feminists and are likening that to how Reverend Jackson and others may feel about Obama.

                      The problem with your point is that no where did I say that Bey needed anyone’s approval. I said that I thought her use of Feminist language in her songs was a cynical attempt to place herself in a Feminist light. This has nothing to do with approval from the old guard, this has to do with actions backing up or not backing up words.

                      Anyone can claim anything but is that enough just to claim it? Or are actual actions required? That’s my point.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      And how else would she back them up without a cosign from some feminist groups somehow? You’re being obtuse.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      “I thought her use of Feminist language in her songs was a cynical attempt to place herself in a Feminist light”

                      Wasn’t their displeasure amongst notable Feminist when this occurred??? Don’t those who are notable always looking for like minds to check in, coordinate, vet their initiatives?

                    • Val

                      You are completely proving my point that you have something to say and even if it’s not relevant to what I said you are going to say it.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      And you seem to be avoiding mine. You and other Feminists found the Feminist language in her songs to be cynical. To lift a few lines from @Todd’s threads:

                      “Beyonce could literally run 3 miles to save a bunch of girls from a
                      burning orphanage, buy the girls a new orphanage and set up a trust fund
                      for the girls to go to college, and you’d still hate her.” – There are others that feel the same way

                      “she didn’t appeal to high falutin’ tastes from jump,” – Had Beyonce sought the approval of noted Feminists before she put out the music, would this be an issue? If someone you respected in the Feminist community applauded her effort, would it change your view?

                      Besides, I was commenting on Todd’s comment.

                    • Val

                      I never said I was a Feminist.

                    • 321mena123

                      This is another discussion for another day but i feel that Jackson and Sharpton do nothing but treat blacks like children. If they both went away, i would be quite happy.

                      Obama, to me, tells it like it is. He’s not afraid to do so. I admire him for it.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      Fraternity aside, I tend to like Al more than Jessee. I love how he uses his platform to bring things to the public. I am saddened to see that folks want to see both men vanish but there isn’t evidence of folks ready to take the mantle.

                    • 321mena123

                      No one needs to take the mantle. We don’t need 1 leader to lead us to the promise land. We aren’t children. When they go, i hope no one takes their place. We as a community got us to where we are today.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I agree there doesn’t need to be “one leader”. However, there need to be people willing to stand up and utilize / leverage their influence to shed light on systemic inequalities that exist.

                    • 321mena123

                      I think we have those people but they are in the background. Also, social media would help us tremendously with this.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      Are they in the background because they lean on Al and Jessee being on the front lines? The question still remains, if both heeded to the calls of those who want them off the front lines, who in the back is willing to step up and replace them? Succession plans always seem to be one of the key elements missing in maintaining Black political / economic clout.

                    • http://brown-c6h12o6.tumblr.com/ AfroPetite

                      I find Jesse and Al to be those proverbial “Get off my lawn! You better listen when I speak because I’m XY years old and I done seen some ish!!” It’s very off-putting and I don’t need to be yelled at and talked down to just because I wasn’t born in the 40′s. Their message becomes lost on me 90% of the time.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I get it but you still haven’t answered the question.

                      If both heeded to the calls of those who want them off the front lines, who in the back is willing to step up and replace them?

                      Who outlines a series of injustices in a manner that will spur you to action?

                      If you had an issue that was being swept under the rug, who / whom do you feel would garner the most attention to your issue(s) so that a suitable remedy would be put in place?

                    • 321mena123

                      People will step up. I feel that we don’t need one person. I don’t like Al and Jesse. They use race as a way to make money and give themselves the spotlight. They go to battle for things that are questionable but then won’t go to battle for serious problems we have in our community without blaming another entity. I prefer Obama’s approach “we know that $h!t is messed up but that doesn’t give you the right to go around acting a fool.”

                    • NomadaNare

                      Examples?

                    • 321mena123

                      Duke Lacrosse, Rainbow Coalition, Duck Dynasty, Critics of Obama (calling him half breed n!gg@)

                      It just seems that any time something racial happens, they always jump in to be the voice of blacks. They do not, in any way, represent my views on race and nor do i want people thinking that i follow their logic. They are outdated opportunists who have made money and a name for themselves by making blacks feel that they are at and will always be on the bottom of the barrel.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      For every Duke Lacrosse and Twanna Brawley, there’s a stand your ground, voter suppression, stop and frisk, Jordan Davis, Abner Luima, Jena Six, Central Park 5, discssions about how the drug laws are skewed when it comes to crack vs powder coke, etc. brought to light.

                    • 321mena123

                      I only named a few. They seem to pop up only when they can get press.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      They pop up when these things pop up. They pop up when the grassroots groups make them aware. The desired outcome would be no issues to report = no Al and Jessee.

                      We haven’t gotten there yet so there will be Al and Jessee.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I’ve already stated that I don’t feel that there should be one person. In terms of the race pandering, I don’t see it as such since the issues identified effect black folks and black communities. Why would he talk about white issues in the burbs to black folks or the media if that’s not his base?? I love the President’s plan of attach too and we need more people with different opinions on how to address the issues at hand to leverage their platforms and create a balance that we lost when Malcolm and Martin died.

                      Would it be fair to call Rush, Sean Hammity, Glen Beck, and the others race panders too under your definition since they do the exact same thing? The only difference I see is that the platform is shared with a clear succession plan of how to keep the platform.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      For me, the issue is that people don’t step up.

                      For example. In my neighborhood, there is a club nearby. It is about half a block down from my house.l my neighborhood hates having this club so close by. It is pretty noisy and there are sometimes fights that happen in the middle of the street. And my neighbors complain ALL THE TIME at community meetings. However, they never call the police. At all. I call them all the time. You not waking me up at 3am and think there will be no consequence.

                      All my neighbors have to do is stand up. And they choose not to.

                      PS: It is why I hate when people say they are too pure to do politics. That is exactly the type of person who needs to be involved.

                    • 321mena123

                      But you have and i am sure you aren’t the only one who has called the police. The fact that you go to community meetings with other people there says that you all care.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Here is the thing. Leadership is an action many must take. That means I cannot be the only one trying to make it happen. I need my neighbors to step up.

                    • 321mena123

                      I see your point but i feel like there are so many of you in every community that we don’t need ONE to take the lead on ALL of our communities issues. That was my entire point. We don’t need anyone to step into the shoes of Jesse or Al when they leave. We’ll be fine.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      I think we still need people like them. The reason is because until mainstream media represents our issues appropriately, you need someone like Al to dog them. So we leaders with large media presence. That probably would not be me lol I am popular on these e-streets, but not that popular.

                    • 321mena123

                      You never know. I see with social media us having more than one person speaking. There are so many different black voices. I prefer McWhorter, Kennedy, and Harris-Perry. Excluding HP, M and K aren’t all out in the open all the time (meaning not having a show) but they have a following. There are a lot of people like those three.

                    • Val

                      No offense but you sound like FOX News. But I’m not going to debate Sharpton and Jackson except to say that they have been targets of White run media for quite some time and I’m not so willing to jump on that bandwagon.

                      Regarding Obama; every single time he speaks in front of Black folks he speaks to us like we are lost children. He, as President, doesn’t tell us what he’s going to do as President for us, as he does with other constituencies, he tells us what he thinks we should be doing . That’s not his job. He’s not Daddy in Chief, he’s President.

                      So, if we’re talking about speaking to Black folks like children then please include Obama in that group.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      You’re going beyond parody now. Just stop.

                    • 321mena123

                      None taken.

                      I have no problems with what Obama has said regarding race in this country and our place in it. He doesn’t speak to blacks like children. He speaks to us like the adults who can take the good with the ugly truth. I’m here for it.

                    • Val

                      Well, let me ask you this; why doesn’t he speak the same way to other groups? Why is it only us who get preached to?

                    • 321mena123

                      Because he has a connection to us which is mainly being black. The conversations that i’ve seen him have is usually with the younger generation which would be our group. This man is 52 so even though i don’t believe he speaks to us like children, i do believe that he speaks to us like a man that has been here for 52 years, has climbed to the highest office in the land, and has a family to protect and worry about. Do you get upset when your uncle or aunt talk to you about certain aspects, knowledge that they have gained, so that it may help you do better or be better?

                      I think black people have more of a problem that Obama says the things he says in mixed company more so than what he is saying or how he is saying it.

                    • Val

                      But Obama is not my uncle, Mena. I don’t want him to be. I want him to be for us what he is to other groups, President. That’s it and that’s all. We are not some dysfunctional group that needs remedial attention from the President. And for the life of me I can’t see how you can’t see how condescending this is.

                      As Eps mentioned above, Obama went to Morehouse a gave a speech to Black college grads that was totally out of place and insulting. And that’s the norm for him when he stands in front of us. Also, I could care less about what others outside of us think. It’s what we think on this that matters.

                      But, lots of Black folks think we are a dysfunctional people and need to be preached to because we don’t have the collective common sense to know what to do. Maybe you agree with that sentiment?

                    • 321mena123

                      I think there is “dysfunction” within our group that stems from slavery.

                      We can agree to disagree. If Obama spoke on race in the terms that others liked, i don’t believe that people would have a problem. If he didn’t speak on race and was just the president, blacks would have a problem. He can’t win because no matter what he does, he will be polarizing to some and great to others.

                    • Val

                      I think we’ve reached our usual impasse. Lol

                      *gives Mena a big hug and changes subject*

                    • 321mena123

                      LOL. Always!

                    • Epsilonicus

                      “But, lots of Black folks think we are a dysfunctional people and need to be preached to because we don’t have the collective common sense to know what to do”

                      Example: Black on black crime. People talk about it as if it is an epidemic. What folks don’t realize is that 92% of all crime in the USA intra-racial…

                    • ForeverCC

                      and 88.3% of statistics are made up *snicker* i couldn’t help it. carry on…

                    • Epsilonicus

                      I knew someone would say this…

                    • ForeverCC

                      lol you can count on me like 1,2, 3

                    • Epsilonicus

                      This made me think of a Bruno Mars song.

                    • ForeverCC

                      yep. :) i’ve been listening to his songs hard in the rotation in preparation for his concert lol

                      sidenote: i believe it’s similar to a song on sesame street, too. my kid was singing something that sounded like it

                    • afronica

                      “But I’m not going to debate Sharpton and Jackson except to say that they have been targets of White run media for quite some time and I’m not so willing to jump on that bandwagon.”

                      This is always a point of distress for me. Take Marion Barry for instance since I’m in DC. Yes, he had a problem with crack (at the very least). But I don’t doubt that national media were following him closely for years, watching for the slightest problem to publicize. And I think Democrats and Republicans at the national level were looking for reasons to stop him from becoming a viable political figure. So what do I make of that mess? Was he getting kickbacks from city contracts? Did he mismanage DC finances so badly that a fed up capital city eventually elected an accountant as mayor? I don’t know.

                      If Barry were an isolated example of a black politician infused with scandal, that would be one thing. But he (like a number of politicians of every race) is not alone. I want a better way to separate black politicians from the set up that is (white) ‘Murica and them just being prone to illegal actions.

                    • Val

                      I feel the same, Afronica. It’s like Stop and Frisk in NYC. Those who support it say that it’s needed because Black people commit most of the crimes. But, I always think that if you are only looking at Black people then naturally you are going to catch more Black criminals. And, if you aren’t looking at what White folks are doing then how many are getting away with the same stuff Black folks are being caught for.

                      Same with politicians. Congress just finished ‘investigating’ Charles Rangel of NY and Maxine Waters of California. They spent a bunch of money and time and in the end they found nothing. But, in the process they smeared both of them.

                      All of that are the reasons that keep me from bashing Sharpton, Jackson et al.

                    • ratchet d-Ibaka

                      Giiiiirl, Rick Ross said the devil is a lie, and so are you. Obama skats around issues! He is too diplomatic and I understand why! And get this, I approve of it.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      In a just world, there wouldn’t be an Old Guard. There would be leaders, full stop, who can be endorsed or deposed by the masses as need be.

                      But then again, how else would the Aristocracy of Pull work unless an Old Guard establishes itself as The One True Hope and crushes and all pretenders to The Throne? It’s worked so well since the end of the Civil Rights Movement after all, and your deep abiding “love” of Beyonce is but one exemplar.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      I can understand this a bit. It is like when he talked at Morehouse. He spoke in a tone similar to respectability politics. I am like dude, you preaching to the choir. These dudes are obviously not trying to be rappers or ball players, let it go.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      I get it to but do these guys have the ability to turn to the darkside and leverage the fact that they are in “demand” by women and pimp the game? I often hear from my Bougie friends in the A that the Morehouse and corporate types are the biggest jerks out there.

                      Whether or not a Presidential reminder of what’s at stake in necessary / warranted remains to be seen.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, and Stanford White dudes do the same exact thing. That is what happens when you are a part of an elite group. I see frat guys do it. Exclusivity of any sort breeds that attitude. I used being an archaeology major at my university as a way to get into some draws.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      Yup.

                      The only difference is when we do it it’s labeled as a determent to the race; they do it and it’s a part of the exclusivity.

                    • Val

                      Exactly, that Morehouse speech was completely tone deaf. It’s like he doesn’t even matter to him who the Black folks are in front of him he just gives the same knee-jerk speech no matter what.

                    • Freebird

                      why did so many people miss that point?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      I think folks were just so excited he was speaking at Morehouse that no matter what he said, it was just time to celebrate him speaking there.

              • panamajackson

                I’m sorry, but you really do hate her. Lol. It’s okay. But it sounds like your beef is more me with everybody else’s open arms welcome of her. It’s like you feel like one of those folks who sees thru it all and is pissed others don’t, so you’re mad at her for fooling the people.

                • ratchet d-Ibaka

                  Lmao!

                • Val

                  Lol. Maybe except I’m not the only one who can see she’s a phony. Thankfully.

              • Epsilonicus

                ” Like how she decided to suddenly include Feminism in her act by quoting a popular Black Feminist on last album”

                People went on hard on that as an argument for her being a feminist.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

      They can admire the brand. Look at Mariah, Britney, Whitney and how they all fell off and if there’s one thing you can’t take from Beyonce is that the brand is pretty infallible

    • panamajackson

      I’m just glad you didn’t say Alicia Keys was a role model.

  • TheOtherJerome

    The role model thing is so over rated. Part of growing up is realizing your role models are actual people with flaws…. and it makes YOU a better person when you realize it.

    That being said i don’t want to be designated someones role model. Because to me thats a form of control. Once you get branded a role model you can’t be yourself. F-that.

  • Geneva Girl

    Bey is so NOT a role model. Whenever Drunk in Love comes on the radio, I have to turn to another station. I’m usually in my car driving the munchkin to school listening to French radio that doesn’t edit anything English. I don’t need my kid hearing all of that cussin’. (Unless it’s from me.)

    As for that “Ban Bossy” nonsense, check out this article:
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/17/banning-bossy-isn-t-the-answer.html

    • IcePrincess

      Oh lawd you make me feel bad this mornin. I listen to all the ratchet hip hop uncensored wit my son right there. *hangs head* His fave group at the moment is k-camp. Lol. He’s 5. But in my defense, their beats ARE bubblegum soooo…….

      • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

        Me too IcePrincess. I have my daughter saying Surfboart! all the damn time. Now to get the lesson started on how prophylactics are a good thing. First, let’s work on pronunciation of the word. My daughter tends to stumble over objectification as is. LOL

      • PhlyyPhree

        Sooooo…my daughter loves the beginning of **Flawless. Just the beginning with “Bow Down”. She makes me start it over as soon as the speech comes on. My daughter is also in the habit of randomly running through the house and telling us to “TURN UP SHE GOT A NEW BUGATTI”

        HOWEVER….
        My daughter also explicitly asks to read her “Bible books”(her weekly bible study pamphlets) as bedtime stories each night and they call her “Little Mother” at church because she knows ALL of the old hymns and plenty of the newer standards.

        I say all that to say it’s balance. Will my daughter eventually grow up and consider Beyonce a role model? Maybe. And I won’t be disappointed with that because there are so many worse people she could choose to emulate. I agree with Bunni up thread when she said that there’s nothing wrong with a powerful woman who chooses to embrace her chexulaity. And at the end of the day, however WE feel about her expressing her Chexual prowess, she is STILL a smart business woman (or follows the directions of her business people VERY WELL). But at the end of the day, whomever my daughter chooses to look up to, I know that while she may not consider me her role model specifically, it was ME who took her to church and fed her and clothed her and gave her all the tools and resources she needed to go chase her dreams and live out her emulations, so as long as she grows up to be a happy, successful, responsible and respectful person? I’m ok with that.

        • panamajackson

          Here’s my only question…and no judgement, I swear….what do you do the first time yoru daughter yells out “bow down b*tches” in public? I feel like my daughter would do it. She is the queen of the awkwardly inappropriate statement that’s hilarious but “WHY NOW!!!”

          • PhlyyPhree

            LMAOOO
            I REALLY don’t know. I said she loves the song, I didn’t say I let her listen to it all the time. When we DO listen to it, I try to sing really loudly over the chorus so some days it’s “Bow down Misses” or “Bow down kittens”.
            My daughter is actually pretty good with not saying words she shouldn’t in public (at least for right now, anyways)
            Usually, if I let her say it at home and don’t make a huge deal out of it, it loses it’s fun and shock value and we move on to other things.

            Short answer: IOENO. I only pray she doesn’t do it at her country day school and saves it for when we’re visiting her snooty grandmother.

            • http://brown-c6h12o6.tumblr.com/ AfroPetite

              “Bow down kittens!!!” LOL So cute!

              • PhlyyPhree

                Lol. When you have a very intelligent and inquisitive 3 year old, you come up with things you never thought you would.

            • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

              Yayy we’re not the only ones making our own KidzBop remixes!!! When me and my sister realized my niece was picking up on songs in the car, it was “Round of applause, Brookie make your hands clap” lol…those are the lyrics SHE knows, and we’re ok with that

        • IcePrincess

          Rite. My son loves singing along to “whatcha sayin ho, u kno I’m da man ho!” But I let it slide because I KNOW my child. I know he has the intellect to understand not to ever cuss in public. He knows there’s a time & place for everything. It’s about having that relationship with your child & knowing their limitations. What may work for me & mine may not work for you & yours, & vice versa

        • IcePrincess

          Rite. My son loves singing along to “whatcha sayin ho, u kno I’m da man ho!” But I let it slide because I KNOW my child. I know he has the intellect to understand not to ever cuss in public. He knows there’s a time & place for everything. It’s about having that relationship with your child & knowing their limitations. What may work for me & mine may not work for you & yours, & vice versa

          • panamajackson

            I mean I see what y’all are saying. But its still a risk. You raise your child to now what words are inappropriate, but it is conflicting to say, “don’t say this: but here listen to this where those words fly free, right? I don’t curse in front of my child or any of that for that reason. I don’t want to confuse her with my words of what is right and what she gets on the daily from me. again, to each his own, and no judgement, I’m just not gon’ let me my daughter listen to anything that causes her to question if she can say it somewhere. Plus, most of those lyrics are terrible in terms of sh*t i’d hate to have to explain to a little girl.

            • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

              Yeah, that’s where I’m at. Me and my husband have had the discussion about full out singing songs that have the word “ho” in them. And it’s not like we can be an umbrella for her forever. But she’s barely two; we can’t teach her “funk” because it sounds like “f**k” in her toddler language. I don’t want those words in her lexicon, period, until she’s able to discern how to use them appropriately in appropriate situations.

            • WIP

              This is one of the many conundrums of being a parent, right? Having a child makes you kinda look in the mirror. I think most kid experts say that kids watch what you do much more than what you say. You can explain all day that a word isn’t appropriate, but if you sing it chances are they will sing it too. (Kids be mad inappropriate.)

              • panamajackson

                Yeah it really is. And as they get older, what you say gets repeated a lot. My child is definitely super inquisitive and wants to know what everything means.

            • IcePrincess

              Yea, it’s prolly a lil trickier with girls….

          • WIP

            “My son loves singing along to ‘whatcha sayin ho, u kno I’m da man ho!’”
            BOL!!
            IP, I’d side-eye the he11 out of a parent if I heard a child saying that, lol.

            • IcePrincess

              Lol! See….but he would never say it around you. My son is a church mouse in the public eye. Then all h*ll breaks loose behind closed doors. Like I said, he’s aware if that duplicity.

        • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

          Im totally with you on this….my niece is the exact same way…that girl is barely 3 and she picks up on lyrics to the most ratchet songs ever….but shes articulate and she knows what “bad words” are, and she sings gospel songs to us and spells her name to anyone willing to listen…she’s well rounded thus far….my mom kept us from the outright inappropriate explicit sutff as kids, but i dont recall being stuck in a “you can only listen to mother goose rhymes” kinda world. That world prob stinks lol. I learned very early on that art is art and not my reality, just cuz its on tv or in a song doesnt mean I should emulate or repeat it. I’m an 80′s baby, I NEEDED someone to explain NWA to me, Tupac, Biggie, Lil Kim, etc to me and I’m glad my parents didnt sugarcoat the world for me. Pretending the bad things dont exist doesnt make em go away, cuz children have friends and playgrounds where they will learn and absorb everything you “keep” them away from. Expose them, educate them, and they’ll learn….

          • Epsilonicus

            But exposure has to be age appropriate too. Its not like you let a 3 year old listen to NWA and try to explain.

            • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

              of course not, everything is within reason….but a lot of the appeal kids have to things like this is because its “off limits” and “bad for you” ….once you get to talkin openly about it, you explain all the appeal away

              • panamajackson

                Pretty sure that isn’t the case with little kids. That “explain the appeal away” is older kid wisdom. And even then I feel like its pure non-sense. Didn’t work for me at all. I was the n*gga who heard, ‘I mean sneaking out the window ain’t all its cracked up to be..” so you knwo what I did? I snuck out the window to find out. While nobody suggests only exposing kids to “mother goose” you almost can’t fault people for thinking along those lines. let’s be real…if you, or any of you who have kids who let your kids listen to any and erything, heard a little kid say “buss it open for a real N*gga” anywhere, you’d judge the SH*T out of those parents and wonder what else was happening with the kid. No matter if the parents are allegedly teaching them that “hey, you’re 3, this isn’t appropriate but as long as i explain it to you its okay to listen anyway”. I’m sorry…its not realistic and I’d bet good money that MOST of you when you have kids will not be doing that. I aint judging the folks who are, unless your child runs up to me and says “don’t stop pop that p*ssy let me see you doodoobrown”…but my kid? Hellus nous.

                While eventually I hope to both expose my child and explain to her some of the music daddy grew up with and listened to, it DEFINITELY ain’t gonna happen at no 3 years old. Or 7. Like, can a lil ninja have a childhood for a little while? like, does a 7 year old need to know what a molly is? Y’all sound like you believe in telling kids Santa ain’t real at 2.

                • ForeverCC

                  i’m with ya. i listen to a very filtered radio station in the car with the kids if we’re not listening to pandora.

                  but we did tell our son that santa is just a nice man who dresses up. just like he dressed up like spiderman for halloween lol but he was 4 when we told him so that’s okay, right?

          • ForeverCC

            man…i wish i had a dollar for every time i heard my mother say “tv/songs/[insert media venue] is not real life”

      • panamajackson

        Yeah, my daughter hears none of that. All Iisten to in the car with her is gospel, kids song (with flavor, my man Justin Roberts kills the game), Disney soundtracks (I’m ready to burn Frozen tho), and stuff I’ve vetted for appropriateness. Plus, my daughter seems to be taking a liking to vocalists so I”m trying to get her into folks like Amel Larrieux who she’s been trying to emulate recently. I’m raising a supestar dammit.

    • Val

      I’m curious to know if your child is picking up french from hearing it on the radio?

      • Geneva Girl

        No, she learned French in school. She’s a bilingual brat! I’m the one who learns French on the radio. ;-)

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

    Long time no see, people. I have my two cents to add to this discussion before I go back into seclusion.

    The problem with being a role model and having parents as a role model is a double edged sword, if you ask me. You see, everyone wants entertainers and athletes to be a role model for children…until they don’t- especially after some kind of altercation. Sure there are a few people in those fields worthy of being a role model, but even they have shunned the title and everything else that goes along with it.

    Then there’s the issue of parents being role models. This one is kind of tricky because there are a lot of parents out there that don’t deserve to be parents- let alone role models. The reason why I say that is there a lot of children being raised by questionable parents in questionable environments with a rather unstable upbringing. Also, if that parent is a single one who has brought a child into the world under dubious circumstances, do they really need to be considered a role model- especially if they are not even making a concerted effort to lead by example?

    These are things that need to be thought about before we bestow a title or a moral and ethical code of conduct on certain people.

    (Lately, I’ve been way too serious in my posting. I need to get back to being the resident court jester around here…)

    • PhlyyPhree

      “Also, if that parent is a single one who has brought a child into the world under dubious circumstances, do they really need to be considered a role model- especially if they are not even making a concerted effort to lead by example?”

      I think I have a reply…but before I jump to a conclusion, can you please explain to make sure you’re saying what I think you’re saying here?

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

        I’ll put it this way:

        Have you ever seen a person that became a parent without trying? Instead of turning their lives around to become a better person (and parental figure), they continued doing the same irresponsible things they did before they became a parent? That’s where I’m going with this, because it’s very prevalent in the South.

        • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

          Exactly! I’ve seen some parents make an attempt to get their act together, while others are on straight Toys R Us kid status.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

            I personally know several people that are immersed in the club life- even after becoming a parent. It’s like they refuse to let the party life go- knowing full well they have responsibilities at home.

            However, if you happen to point that fact out to them, you will get an aggressive pushback of the worst kind. Case in point: This cat I knew named Rashad did exactly that to one girl and she two pieced him over it. Despite that revelation, she’s still doing the same thing that she hit him over for pointing it out, SMH.

        • PhlyyPhree

          Ah.
          The circumstance you JUST listed, yes I’ve seen and I agree with you.
          The initial part of the comment that raised a red flag was the “If that parent is a single one” being that I don’t think single-ness should have anything to do with the determination of whether or not someone is a good parent. Two parent families don’t necessarily mean that both or even one parent will be a role model or person of good moral character.

          and again, as to dubious circumstances, well…

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

            Dubious circumstances? Here’s what I mean by that:

            Let’s say, for example, you know those girls on Maury Povich who slept around and got pregnant and have no idea who the father is? Yeah that…and this is something I see in person- especially with the younger generation.

            • PhlyyPhree

              No, I understand that. I just think that you made two separate factors into one hypothetical bad person. Dubious circumstances without changing behaviour? Horrible role model. Single person who brought a child in under dubious circumstances without changing behavior? Straw man

              • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

                Sure, it sounds like a straw man argument, but as I said before you’d have to come to the South to see this with your own eyes.

                • PhlyyPhree

                  Nahhhhhh. I’ve got a friend who I loved dearly when she lived on the East Coast with me. She has since moved back to North Little Rock and is on her 3rd with 3 men. I just say a prayer and send diaper giftcards. I really do get what you’re saying, but I just think it’s unfair to start off by summarizing every single person who is a parent that way.

                  • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

                    I’m not putting all single parents in a box- believe me I’m not. In fact, I’m close friends with a few single parents who are doing the right thing. Even they agree with what I’m saying on this matter- mostly because they work and live around the people I’m referring to.

    • panamajackson

      Yeah, I’m with PhlyyPhree here. That satement on its face sounds a bit f*cked. If you’re trying and doing your best, you’re saying that how your child got here negates your ability to be considered a role model?

      • Epsilonicus

        It possibly could. Like if you have 3 possibilities bc you had unprotected chex with some random dudes, that person might not be a role model

        Or if you a dude that got a someone preggers by sneakily sneaking off condoms in the middle chex, you might not be a role model.

        • panamajackson

          What if you learn your less, repent, and vow never to make that same mistake again.

          • ForeverCC

            if that’s the case, i would say they could be a role model on how to bounce back from a difficult situation. but they should not be a role model on how to prepare for having kids

            • PhlyyPhree

              I honestly don’t know very many couples who are role models on how to prepare for having kids…unless of course you speak of Beyonce which brings us right back around to the beginning of this argument. Not many people “prepare” for children. Some do, but I believe that more often than not, pregnancies occur and people try to make the best of the situation.

              • Epsilonicus

                I am in the middle of it right now actually. We are paying off our debt and looking to buy a house. Meanwhile timing it so that my wife is not on maternity leave in the middle of administration change (she works for the governor office for children).

                I know quite a few folks who actually lay out and have a plan for kids. They just don’t get a lot of shine for doing it. I am in an office full of them.

                • PhlyyPhree

                  Congratulations!!! (Early, lol)

                  My comment was more so about having a role model who demonstrated that preparedness. Like you said, you’re in an office full of people who do so and I know a FEW, but they don’t get any shine for taking proper family planning methods.

                  • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                    I think, in return for no shine, they get no shaming. That’s the biggest difference for me. There are no side eyes, no asking who the father is and whether or not they’re still together, no “what’s the baby’s last name gonna be.” You are simply treated as if your baby is a celebration, with no shade in the background.

                    • PhlyyPhree

                      Ah yes. The single mother’s walk of shame. I lived that through my entire pregnancy and still deal with it daily. It sucks..(no Beyonce, ha!)
                      And I say single mothers, because it seems to be exclusive to the mothers. If a single man is viewed out and about with his child, while many may assume that he’s not “with” the child’s mother, they’re usually too busy lauding him for doing what he is supposed to do to give that thought any real examination.

                    • 321mena123

                      Oh yes.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      You’re right, but it’s not necessarily a free lunch. For all the props, I get a lot of patronage.

                    • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                      I have to check myself on this too, with my husband. A good parent is a capable one, and we all need to stop framing capable parenthood in terms of women. It’s unfair.

                    • PhlyyPhree

                      and I’m not trying to gloss over that patronage or minimize it. I’m sure there are some very real struggles that single dads go through that are absolutely infuriating. I just don’t know if it’s necessarily on the scale that single mothers endure because if I’m seen out and about with a pregnant belly or newborn, I automatically have to start rebutting the questions and assumptions. No one will know a man is a parent if he doesn’t open his mouth and say so.
                      Also, when your out and about with your child I bet no one ever walked up to you and asked you “who the mother was” or “if you and the mother were still together”. I didn’t even get to my 6th month before I had to answer those questions…REPEATEDLY

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      This is very true. I will admit that. I get more drama when trying to do more formal stuff. People generally leave me alone in the park, but lemme take my daughter to the doctor or school. LOL

                    • PhlyyPhree

                      Yea I can understand that though. Dad’s doing formal things like taking a child to the doctor or school is somewhat like seeing a unicorn! Lol. Even in two parent households or GOOD coparenting situations, it always seems like you see more mothers doing those things, so I’m sure you get a whole lot of poking and prodding when you do it.

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      Yeah. There were a couple of situations where it was less annoying and more concerning. One time was dealing with a doctor, and another was a child care situation when my daughter was sick and, thanks to telephone tag, I didn’t find out for 6 hours that something was wrong. I will say mothers get more just active disgust, if that makes sense, while fathers get confusion.

                    • PhlyyPhree

                      Oh yes. I can definitely agree with that statement.

                    • ForeverCC

                      i also think people don’t talk about the preparation because then they would have to field the “you’re not pregnant yet?” questions. it didn’t take me long to get preggo, and i was still stressed during the process. i can only imagine what couples who have a difficult time conceiving go through.

                    • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                      When people think it’s ‘appropriate’ for you to be pregnant, they get real nosy with their questioning. Not a week goes by I don’t get asked about kid #2.

                • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                  I “planned” my kid. Doesn’t make me better or worse…just neurotic. lol

                  • Epsilonicus

                    Planning makes life a bit easier.

                    • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                      Shoooot, I was just surprised it worked. LOL. To Phlyy Phree’s point, most people in my age bracket, even the married ones, were like, WOOOOPS! I’m pregnant! I’m used to hearing about unplanned ones more.

                • ForeverCC

                  planning can be anything from what you’re doing to intentionally stop taking preventive actions to medical assistance. and you’re right – it doesn’t get a lot of shine.

                  have fun baby making :)

              • ForeverCC

                i read that and couldn’t decide how to word it so i just left it at “prepare” lol but you may be surprised how many people do prepare and plan pregnancies

                • PhlyyPhree

                  Maybe.
                  Well, maybe I’d be surprised. I’m not saying i’ve never seen it happen. I think I see it more now that I’m moving into a different age bracket and my friends are pairing off and marrying up, but I still know just as many married couples who say “Oh. Would you look at that? Time to trade in for a four door”

                  • ForeverCC

                    i have two kids – one created each way lol

          • Epsilonicus

            I would say yes.

      • ratchet d-Ibaka

        If they got here because a condom broke, or plainly put, they were a mistake, who gives a DAMN! So long as YOU, the parent are handling his/her business, the child does not need to know the circumstances that led to them being conceived! All they need to know is that they are loved, have their existence validated and taken care of! So therefore, if you are a single parent doing the damn thing, you are a phakking role model!!!!! Gawd. What is with these exaggerated senses of role models. You have to be damn near perfect or have x,y,z, together! Mschewwww! That particular last bit angered me.

    • SuperStrings

      “These are things that need to be thought about before we bestow a title or a moral and ethical code of conduct on certain people.”
      The problem is that people are bestowing moral and ethical codes on a phrase (role model) that, by itself, doesn’t necessarily imply anything moral or ethical. The moral and ethical part is just an example of people forcing an aspect of the whole to be the whole.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

        And that’s where the lines get blurred, in my opinion.