The Difference Between Appreciation And Objectification

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If you happened to be in Harlem this past weekend and thought to yourself “Hmm. That big-headed guy who looks like he’s lost and keeps walking in circles looks just like the Champ,” chances are that it was probably me. I made the trip to NYC to take part in MANifest — a series created and organized by Ebony.com that gathered 20 or so Black men from all walks of life to discuss “…the challenges, but also the important nuances and undeniable triumphs of being Black and male in America.” in a roundtable format. (And yes, an extended “Champ’s thoughts on NYC” is coming later this week)

I’d been looking forward to this event for a while. I’ve been working for Ebony.com for six months now, and aside from Jamilah and Geneva, I’ve never met the rest of the team in person. Also, it’s not everyday that you get the opportunity to sit in a room with such a diverse group of Black men — straight and gay, liberal and conservative, old and young, “academic” and “street” — and share thoughts, feelings, and experiences. 

Anyway, midway through the conversation, one of the men brought up the concept of code-switching in regards to how we deal with women. Basically, he said that we were all fronting because the language we use to describe women and the way we act towards them is different in a setting such as the moderated roundtable discussion at MANifest than it would be if we were at a bar or on the block. When the cameras are on and women are in the room, it’s all respect and courtesy. But, when no women are within earshot and someone like this walks past, “nature” takes over. (And, in this sense, “nature” = “an uncontrollable urge to ogle, stare, salivate, and scream “Damn!!!” while biting our fists”)

While I agreed with the idea that we all code-switch, the more I think about it, the more I have to say that I disagree with the implication that code-switching is wrong. Yes, it’s definitely wrong to behave in an obnoxiously disrespectful way when seeing an attractive woman, but I just don’t think there’s a problem if, when with a group of guys, you acknowledge her looks in a way that you probably wouldn’t if you were speaking to a woman. My reaction to a Stacey Dash doppelganger when I’m sitting with my boys is going to be different than it would be if sitting with my homegirl. Or my girlfriend. Or my parents. Or a couple of male co-workers I’m not really all that close to. Different language will be used, but code-switching in a context-dependent way to verbally acknowledge and appreciate isn’t inherently disrespectful.

That being said, I still do wonder where acknowledgment/appreciation ends and objectification begins. For instance, the staff at Ebony.com is comprised of some very attractive women. Is it appreciation or objectification if, when meeting one of them for the first time, “She’s banging”  was the first thought to go through my head? And, if having that first initial thought doesn’t make it objectification, when does it cross that line? If “Damn, she’s banging” stays the primary thing going through your head during your conversation? If you glance at her hands mid-convo to see if she’s married? If you watch her walk away? If you subtly position yourself in a way so that you’ll be able to watch her walk away? (Also, I’m aware that women do stuff like this too — and can even be more “objectificational” than we are — but it just doesn’t have the same negative connotation)

None of the actions mentioned are overtly obnoxious — silently watching a woman walk past might rate a 1.6 on the 10 point creepy scale (and 7.6 if you lick your lips while doing it) — but the intent is really no different than what happens when a group of men whistle at a woman walking down the street or when a man “accidentally” allows his hand to brush up against (and linger on) an anonymously mini-skirted ass at a club. All ways of expressing a sexual/romantic interest that has nothing to do with the person and everything to do with the package the person is presented in.

Anyway, people of VSB.com, in your opinion(s), when does appreciation end and objectification begin? Since they’re so closely intertwined, is there even a way to really distinguish between the two? Also, does the answer have less to do with the intent than how the attention is received?

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

***Are we to blame for Gwyneth Paltrow feeling “familiar” enough to tweet “nigga?” Check out my latest at The Root — “Gwyneth, the N-Word and Why We’re to Blame” — for an answer***

617 thoughts on “The Difference Between Appreciation And Objectification”

  2. Appreciation ends when you don’t take the persons feelings into consideration when you vocalize or otherwise show said appreciation. Objectification is when you don’t give a damn what she thinks about what you say.

    And uh… as far as that pic is concerned. Great googly-moogly!!! I need to visit the ATL.

    That btw is appreciation.

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      • I could see this thing happening. Definitely, people are going to interpret comments differently. What someone may find kosher, another might deem it offensive. I’ve seen this happen with various women where a guy makes a comment that is complimentary/not offensive to one girl in the party, but it’s downright insulting to one of her girls.

        Guess you gotta be discerning.

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        • ” What someone may find kosher, another might deem it offensive.”

          This is the underlying dilemma that we face. There’s no one size fits all method. The theory that TOJ gave is a pretty solid rule of thumb, but even that leaves a lot of room for subjective interpretation/application.

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          • That’s why I said you gotta be discerning, especially if you want to stay out the red.

            Choose your battles wisely.

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      • But that Hypersensitivity is on her. Women (and men) aren’t perfect. This assumes, of course, the person giving the complement isnt some weird 40 year old virgin type who somehow missed the class on appropriate discourse and setting.

        For example. If i somehow met the woman from the above link at say, the Ebony.com office for the first time walked up to her and said “damn girl you’re killing the game!” that would be objectification.

        If i met that same woman at whatever club she’s posing at walked up to her and said the same phrase, then kept it pushin, that would be appreciation.

        Now she -could- get offended at the club complement, but if she did she likely has issues. But that’s not your problem. No sane woman would have a problem with that.

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          • Yes i can. It’s in my contract, so there :-)

            But seriously, the only thing i can control is myself. I can’t beat myself up about how others would perceive a well meaning complement that 99.9% of people would smile at. IF she doesn’t like the complement, that ok. Just as it’s ok for me to be like “woah, you’ve got a wall built around you, why are you even at this club?”

            Remember i’m not talking about “cat-calling”, i’m talking about giving a complement to someone who went out of their way to “jump sharp” (first time i’ve used that term in a year lol) in a social setting.

            “Girl, you’re Rihanna/Cassie hair style is whats up!” Who takes offense to that? Someone who is likely best avoided.

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        • @ The Other Jerome

          She could be hypersensitve. However, comments can always be kept to themselves. Just because you think it doesn’t mean you have to say it.

          If she is the baddest chick up in the club, or her dress is hugging every curve that her momma and grandmamma gave her…doesn’t mean you have to let her know, unless you’re thinking that’s going to boost your chances at hollering at her…lol.

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            • Very true i could keep my comments to myself. And i usually do unless she put together a really dope ensemble ….. or i’m trying to holla :-)

              However, we’re debating about objectification. My comments on her appearance at an appropriate setting are not objectification.

              Unless i yelled it across the room i suppose lol

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                  • Hey Rome… *looks at Rome like a piece of #flamingyoung while licking lips* What chu doing later? I could be a physic and tell you it would be me…”

                    Are you feeling objectified now? LOL

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                    • LOL… OMG boy, stop! lmao… see the difference when a woman does it to a man v. when a man does it to woman? Some men run wit it, some women get offended. Some men, however, not like Rome here, will run too or spit the ‘we’re just friends’ line. Guess dat shyt has to be in person to be effective.

              • I’m feeling you bruh. If a woman can’t take a respectfully delivered compliment IN A CLUB that they spent who know how long getting ready for then ,yes, they’re basically saying “I’m best avoided cause I’m not correctly adjusted right nah”.

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                • Why she gotta be crazy cause she didn’t like your compliment? Maybe she just doesn’t like you. Ijs. Don’t be so sensitive about how you approach is received. You’re not owed a positive response.

                  Just because I’m in a club looking good doesn’t mean I have to be open to every ninja who wants to holla. I could be high on my own sexy and not want to be hit on. Or maybe there’s nobody in the bar I like. But I’m still gonna get my drink and dance on. It’s my body, my space, my rules.

                  Some people will like you, some won’t. The ones who don’t aren’t crazy. They just don’t.

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                  • I don’t think he meant that literally. It’s just like how when women express their interest in a man and he declines so she tells herself something to make her feel better like “he must’ve been gay”. Nothing wrong with that. It’s his opinion that she’s crazy. Her opinion that he’s gay. Sticks and stones were not involved so no one was harmed

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          • ” She could be hypersensitve. However, comments can always be kept to themselves. Just because you think it doesn’t mean you have to say it.”

            Speaking like that you better not complain when men who are feeling you don’t approach. I don’t advocate leading off with a compliment but many men do roll like this. It’s their most comfortable way of starting conversation. If you can’t take a compliment, what the h#ll can you take? (Pause) lol, but seriously if a woman can’t take a compliment that’s something I’d wanna know pretty early in the interaction so I don’t waste any extra seconds of my time talking to her.

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            • Oh mi gosh, I do not for the life of me not understand how a woman would be offended by a compliment.

              Compliments, are great conversation starters. Women are reading too much into, your dress is pretty-say thanks, and keep it moving, Urrrrrgh!

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            • Thing is…how is ole boy complementing her? All compliments are not created equal. Is it respectful or damn offensive? If you have to think twice about saying it…it’s probably offensive.

              Yes, women revel in compliments. But what we don’t want is to hear “damn, your dress is mighty fitted” when a simple “you like amazing” will suffice. Men’s carnal desires can be kept to themselves for the most part, unless you just so happen to run up on the chick who’s ready to f*ck and you speaking her language.

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              • unless you just so happen to run up on the chick who’s ready to f*ck and you speaking her language.

                This is the fantasy for most guys when they step into a niteclub.

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                • +1 re:kid video- and you best believe on any given night it’s at least 1 or 2 of them in the club too…

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                    • lol @ demondog. There u go bein picky like a chick lol. But you’re right though, they’re normally the ones that’s wit it. And women of other races who would never date you seriously anyway lol

              • Yes, you have the right but that doesn’t stop you from looking emotionally challenged. Men think there’s something wrong with a woman who dresses provocatively, for the express purpose of gaining a man’s attention, who then complains that she got the attention she was seeking.

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                • That’s your opinion, but since you dont have boobs, or ovaries, it doesn’t count for much. Except maybe a projection of your anger that she didn’t react the way you like. But that’s not a whole lot.

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                  • See? That’s what I’m saying. Your boobs and ovaries are of no more value than my pen!s and sperm. The value you place on your assets is way more than what they are actually worth. Men get hit on. We get ogled. We get comeons and we don’t have a fit when it happens. We say thanks and move on.

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                    • Of course you say thanks and move on because for every 10, 20, 50 compliments I get you will get one. Let’s get real here. A man getting a compliment from a woman is a rare occurance. But your comments about “worth” say a lot. Nobody’s talking about comparative worth, but you felt the new to bring it up. Says a lot about you.

                    • WC-”A man getting a compliment from a woman is a rare occurrence.” Aha! Most women don’t want the job of coming up to and meeting a man and even more won’t pay one that they are feeling a compliment but they have a problem with us doing it. How the heck are we supposed to meet if you hate us for speaking and don’t want to speak yourself?

                    • No I don’t think a woman’s worth is more than a man’s. We need each other but many women think they’re the only species that has some kind of worth in this world. Sad,sad,sad.

        • ” If i somehow met the woman from the above link at say, the Ebony.com office for the first time walked up to her and said ‘damn girl you’re killing the game!’ that would be objectification.”

          This confuses me. I see nothing threatening about that statement. I would have said “thank you” and kept it moving at the Ebony office if someone told me I was killing the game.

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      • I believe that women need to stop being “sensitive” and start just putting in work. Men will look. Men will try to approach sexually. Some of them you’ll want, others you won’t. If you do not want him, do your task and reject him. It really is quite that simple. No need to morally attack the rejects.

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        • Agreed, though I do notice that the ladies who tend to get offended the most get approached by dudes who they think are beneath them. I think it’s their way of trying to up their stock. It’s the whole “I’m a bad a$$ b1tch, you betta come correct to holla” phenomenon. In my experience, women like that are best approached heading towards something else. :)

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          • “I’m a bad a$$ b1tch, you betta come correct to holla”

            *sigh* There is that. But some guys actually take that as an invitation for aggressively flirtatious banter. Other men and women prefer polite playful banter. When the two are mismatched, it ain’t pretty.

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        • Adding to this: If a woman isn’t feeling a man, she should have enough class to reject him politely, especially if she was approached politely. I’ve seen many men castigated by a woman who seemed like she gets off on rejecting guys, regardless of how well he approached her.

          And I’ve also BEEN that guy that got impolitely rejected as well.

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                • Then I must have been in a lot of lines of fire, then.

                  It’s cool. I have a good memory, though….that’s all I’ma say about those women.

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                  • You’ve been in few of those situations, and you don’t think maybe, perhaps you are doing something wrong, cause one I can understand but multiple times? Time to reflect instead of deflecting, Maybe?

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    • @ Jerome- Man I didn’t even finish the article after I opened that link in a new tab….I been objecti-preciating her for the past 20 minutes…dayum! That’s why I don’t get hype about celebrities. None of em look like the everyday women in this here Peach State. (and Miami and NYC as well)

      What were we talkin about again?

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  3. I think appreciation ends and objectification begins when you start viewing/treating the individual as nothing more than a mere object/piece of meat/prize instead of a human being deserving of respect. When your desires start to make another uncomfortable, I think that’s when the objectification starts to come into play, i.e. cat-calls, lingering stares, gropes, lustful comments.

    I think you can admire someone’s attractiveness without going overboard and being completely rude and obnoxious in your approach. Just because you can laud someone’s physical doesn’t entitle you the right to harass them or chip at their dignity.

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    • ” When your desires start to make another uncomfortable, I think that’s when the objectification starts to come into play, i.e. cat-calls, lingering stares, gropes, lustful comments.”

      But it’s not so cut and dry. Because if she’s also attracted to you, then either of these gestures could be welcomed and even seen as incredibly attractive as opposed to making her uncomfortable…but as a rule I do see what you mean. Don’t force her to throw a drink on you because you got too caught up in the moment lol. You gotta be able to read vibes correctly…

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      • @Justmetheguy

        But it is pretty cut and dry. If you approach a woman in a social situation and ask if you may talk with her then you don’t have to read any vibes. She’ll either say yea or nay.

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        • @ Val- I definitely agree that even if a woman seems to be feeling you it’s not okay to just roll up on her and grope her. So maybe it’s just semantics, but I disagree that a man should ask a woman’s permission to talk. That’s not how it works in the real world. He should approach her and start a conversation to gauge interest before making bolder moves, but asking for permission is a turnoff with most of the women I know.

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        • Also, Val, can I say in the lesbian community, those attraction triggers tend to segue easier into convo? Rolling with a lot of lesbians back in my college days, and maintaining a few friends up to the present, it seems that those things lesbians find hot will be put like “I like the way that tank top fits on you” or “That look you have is very intense.” We all know it’s about gettin’ to gettin, but it’s easier to start a convo with that then “God DAMN you have a big ol’ a$$!”

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          • ” …but it’s easier to start a convo with that then “God DAMN you have a big ol’ a$$!””

            Funny enough some guys still start with this.

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            • @ Kema- But yall said “say the first thing that comes to your mind” lmao!

              Seriously though, if you knew the first ideas we have about what to say and how many of them we have to cross out because we’ve been told it’s not ok to say that then you’d understand why dudes don’t approach nearly as much as we should lol

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              • Nah… I think most guys that start that way know a better way to approach. They choose not to for whatever reason.

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                • @ Kema- Not when alcohol’s involved lol, but I was half kidding. I can’t lie though “hi, how are you?” doesn’t always fit the situation, but it does work more often than most men would expect it to. Most things in life aren’t as complicated as we make em.

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          • Lol, I’m not totally sure, Todd. I think it depends on the individual women and what they’re saying. But a woman approaching another woman usually isn’t the same as when men do it because most women don’t feel intimidated by other women. Whereas I’ve often felt physically intimidated by men on the street or even in social settings.

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      • Exactly. I’m not highlighting mutual attraction per se, but more so random guy/girl interaction. If there’s a mutual attraction between both parties, then a little objectification might actually be wanted, but I think that depends of the individuals involved and the nature of their relationship.

        I think relationship might be key in determining what falls under appreciation and objectification.

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  4. This is a tough question, very. Appreciation and objectification are closely intertwined like Siamese twins. They co-exist sometimes in harmony, other times in war. I objectify Lance Gross, master piece of a body for I have no other choice, than to fantasize, for his acting chops are not appreciate worthy?! Errm, listen so long as you are respectful with your objectifirrizle, I’m game. Imma objectify you back, hopefully you are worthy of it all.

    Feminists will be working overtime on this post!

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  5. Do you really think only men do this? I would have to say, hells no. Women also code-switch when we’re sitting around in just a group of women. You think only men can show objectification? LOL Think again bruh!

    I have this convo it seems like every day with a male friend of mine, and he is quite surprised about my antics back in the day. I was just telling him about a group of us women when I was 20-21 sitting around a pool at night each telling their opinion of how different men were in the sack. Oh, yeah, we break it down like that too.

    Women do appreciate the way a man looks whether that’s well dressed, handsome, fly, etc. But, we also objectify some men just like men do women. Sure, we say or at least think, damn I’d like to bang that dude to see what he’s packing and can he do what he thinks he can.

    I had a female friend of mine say that one of my male friends was probably a good phuck. I was like, nah, girl, I doubt it. Why did I share that story with him? LOL He was all excited and ego inflated until I said, “I don’t think so.” BOL Then he kept trying to convince me he would be. lmao… got cha!

    BTW, he shares enough of how men objectify women with me, but HATES it when I turn the tables and do the exact same thing when I see a man that peaks my desire. In this department, men can’t handle the truth. Beleeeeve dat!

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    • Thank you for pointing this out.

      Women objectify the hell out of men at times and they feel no angst over it.

      sometimes I wonder if VSB is in bizarro world :)

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      • Too many times I’ve seen in this forum where men think they have the corner store on the market in every department. Not so. By the same token, not many women will admit that we can be just as doggish as men in certain circumstances. I just happen not to give a phuck. I will level with men and try not to hurt their feelings, but that doesn’t always happen. So, I get labeled. I know I have hoodrat traits, admittedly. To me, it just brings a lil spice to my life. lol

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    • I had a similar conversation with a female friend of mine. The hypothetical situation was, if a group of men were lounging around, and there was one female friend in the midst, the men will still probably act how they would act if she wasn’t there. The question was, would women still behave as brazen as possible if one male friend was in the room. So, in your example Nilla, would your female friend have said the same thing if the guy in question was in the room?

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      • The answer to this is yes, at least in my circle of friends. Particularly if there has been alcohol consumption in the room. The difference is, one or more of the women will apologize for being crass….just about every half hour or so. Men tend to say “she needs to hear it”, or “she is just like us anyway” and dismiss it.

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        • I can admit to the “she’s like one of the boys anyway” comment. But in that sense it’s semantics. That’s pretty much men’s way of acknowledging she is in the room and what we say may be crass, so as to not totally dismiss/ignore her presence.

          Eithet way, I’m glad you admit that women do this as well. This I knew already, but having another confirm what I’ve experienced is always nice.

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          • I have been “one of the boys” before. I dont really mind the crass talk. But I will not partake in the judging of heavy bottomed women. Humph!! *crosses arms*

            Nah I’m just kidding. I will add the stats! Just found out that Bria Myles is 34C-26-45. Thats pretty impressive!

            I am so comfortable talking about lewd subjects I recently put my foot in my mouth telling this minister about a strip club I went to in Jamaica. I didnt know he was a minister. *puts head down*

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            • My only problem with Bria is I don’t know what her true complexion is. Swear she is either a smooth caramel or dark chocolate depending on the photo shoot and subsequent editing.

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            • @ kema, that’s what gets me in ‘trouble.’ Men start shyt and think that I can’t hang. When I take it to a whole new level, they start back stroking real quick. I usually have to check myself to make sure they can hang. I don’t do it as often as I used to, but I think it’s a mistake for guys to think that women can’t or won’t go to that level.

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      • I think that would depend on the level of comfort she felt around dude. Now, if you changed the dynamics and had a group of women and one guy and he was that guy, there is a good chance she would say that. I know when we’ve been hanging out with another male friend ours and there were about 4 of us women around talking shyt, we’d say all kinds of BS. We were all comfortable with his presence, and since he was a dogg’s dog, he gladly joined in our foolery. There were, however, at times when something would be said that was completely unexpected from certain people (mostly me) he’d yell “DAMN, nilla!” LOL

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        • For the record, if I was around you and you said some foul ish, I might actually encourage you to prove it. On the spot. With me.

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  6. If you treat a woman in a professional setting a particular way because you are attracted to her, that’s objectification. If you treat a woman in a professional setting a particular way because you are not attracted to her that’s objectification.

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  7. Yo dat pic is hilarious. Theres a couple of guys i wouldnt mind doing that to. Also Tyrese. He can keep his face uncovered but he gotta wear a muzzle. Let his twitter tell it, hes not the sharpest tool (no pun intended) in the shed.

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    • @ Berbere- Really? Well….what constitutes a gaze? What if I glance every now and then (say every 10 seconds or so)? Is that still objectification?

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    • Well, when I’m a damn foot taller than you, and you’re holding a paper we both gotta read right in front of my chest, don’t say anything. Seriously, I’ve had that happen to me a few times, and it’s hard to keep the optics right.

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    • Unless you go so far as to tape them down like a cross-dresser, every unrelated man will attempt to get a good look when given opportunity.

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  9. Anything woman put on display, we want to be appreciated.
    I don’t mind being appreciated for my looks when that’s all men see. What do you expect? If I wore my SAT score, reading list, culinary skills or credit score the way I wear @ss hugging jeans or a shirt with the triple Ds on display, then I guess I would want to be appreciated for those too.
    Come on ladies, let the men off the hook you know what you’re doing when you’re looking good!!! Men can’t help themselves.

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    • Men can help themselves. It’s time for people to stop letting men ‘off of the hook’ simply because they are men. That’s BS.

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      • Of course they can. That was in jest.
        What I do believe in is shared accountability. There are nations that have built laws around taking away a woman’s right to express herself by not exposing any of her body. In addition to being incredibly oppressive, this wouldn’t be an issue if there wasn’t power in invoking a response in a man simply by the look.
        There’s power in our package. The hours we spend on the treadmill, eating salad with dressing on the side, waxing and relaxing, weaving, plucking, polishing, spanxing, wearing stilettos, etc means we know that power. And we put it on display.

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        • B sweet I couldn’t have said it better. I think the line should be drawn at physical contact or repeated advances after the woman declines. Other than that, why show it off if you don’t want people to admire and fantasize about it? I realize a lot of guys take it too far, but to say we can’t look and/or have a natural reaction of awe or amazement is pretty ridiculous.

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        • “this wouldn’t be an issue if there wasn’t power in invoking a response in a man simply by the look.”

          So based on that a woman is responsible for being raped if she’s dressed and looks good? Come on, I am not responsible for a man’s behavior. There’s jewelry on display in a jewelry store but if a person robs that store they can’t say it was partly the jewelry’s fault for being on display.

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      • To go on a tangent since you’re here Val, even if a woman is wearing clothes ‘for other people’ it doesn’t necessarily you. You as in the plural form specifically referring us to heterosexual males.

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      • ” Oh wow, everyone missed my point. Which was only that women are not responsible for the actions of men.”

        Oh no, we got that point. It was well taken. We just raised the counter point that men aren’t responsible for the feelings of women. As long as no illegal lines are crossed that is. If you’re not feeling the way he approached, just reject him and keep it moving. If he still continues to pursue then call security to toss his @ss out Jazzie Jeff style lol

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    • I kinda feel like women don’t like appreciatation, unless its being said from someone of the male gender that is attractive to that female. Or maybe that’s a general human thing?

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      • I would say that’s true. There are some guys at work who aren’t ugly per se, but I’m definitely not attracted to them. Having them comment on my clothes, especially if there is a hint they are looking at my body, creeps me out. It makes me uncomfortable and I want them to stop.

        For example this guy said my dress was pretty, it compleme

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      • I would say that’s true. There are some guys at work who aren’t ugly per se, but I’m definitely not attracted to them. Having them comment on my clothes, especially if there is a hint they are looking at my body, creeps me out. It makes me uncomfortable and I want them to stop.

        For example this guy said my dress was pretty, it complemented my hourglass figure. I was creeped out all day. But if he says, that’s a nice bright pink you have on, I’m less creeped out. If the cute guy at work says something about my figure, I’m all smiles and giggles.

        *shrugs*

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      • @ King Jordan

        Women do like appreciation. They just don’t like when disrespect is being veiled as appreciation.

        As long as men keep their compliments from being completely off-colored then they shouldn’t encounter many problems. Most women can relish a good compliment. Me being one of them. My line is drawn when it’s disrespectful.

        Don’t blatantly reduce us solely to our assets even if that’s what you’re focusing on…lol.

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