Ok. I lied.
Yesterday, I devoted this space to 1000 or so angst-ridden words about why I was tired of having angst-ridden discussions about Tyler Perry, and my fatigue was completely sincere. So sincere, in fact, that I even scheduled a mock funeral for my angst-ridden Tyler Perry baggage, complete with stink bug pallbearers and a tiny coffin I carved out of some spare plywood in the trunk of my truck. (What? Stop acting like I’m the only one who carries a half dozen pieces of spare plywood in his truck. You never know when you’ll need an extra piece of wood)
But, right when I was about to hammer the final nail in the coffin, I watched this from my homegirl Lydia Cotton. Then, I came across this from Demetria Lucas at A Belle In Brooklyn, which led me to this from Natasha at The YBF, and this from Courtland Milloy at The Washington Post—all pieces using For Colored Girls as a means to offer their take on the fact that many black men (and a few black women) strongly feel that the majority of movies recently produced, written, and directed by black people for black people always seem to have the same latent theme: Ya’ll n*ggas aint shit!
Can anyone name a movie that came out recently starring a black man who wasn’t a sociopath? Someone who had a terrific screen presence, like a young Paul Robeson? And he portrayed a character who was complex and fully drawn? Did he respect black women, too?
Anybody saw that movie? I didn’t. But surely it’s out there somewhere, right? An alternative to those Tyler Perry films portraying black men as Satan’s gift to black women? But where is it?
I love challenges almost as much as I love excuses to eat bacon, so I tried to think of a somewhat recent (recent = made in the last 20 or so years) major motion picture featuring a desirable black male character who fit each of the following characteristics:
—was in a healthy, adult, monogamous, long-term (two years or longer) relationship (rules out each of the main characters in Love Jones, The Best Man, Menace To Society, Poetic Justice, Enemy of The State, Drumline, Devil in a Blue Dress, Jungle Fever, She’s Gotta Have It, Mo Better Blues, She Hate Me, I Think I Love My Wife, and Boomerang)
—was in a healthy, adult, monogamous, long-term relationship with a black woman (rules out Hitch, Training Day, Out Of Time, American Gangsta, I Robot, Our Family Wedding, and Hancock)
—wasn’t a 5’6” professional basketball player (rules out Just Wright and Love and Basketball)
—wasn’t actually a real person (rules out Malcolm X, Ray, Talk to Me, Why Do Fools Fall in Love, and Ali)
—didn’t shoot anyone (rules out each of the Bad Boys as well as each of the Lethal Weapons)
—didn’t accidentally kill seven people in a car accident (rules out Seven Pounds)
—didn’t have a criminal record (rules out every black movie ever set in New York City, Atlanta, or South Central)
—wasn’t a porn star (rules out Boogie Nights)
—wasn’t romantically involved with Kimberly Elise (rules out John Q and Diary of a Mad Black Woman)
From my estimation, this leaves us with Cuba Gooding Jr.’s “Rod Tidwell” (Jerry Macquire), Harold Perrineau’s “Link” (The Matrix Reloaded and The Matrix Revolutions), Jeffery Sams’ “Kenny” (Soul Food), and the black guy in Terminator 2: Judgment Day (you know, the one who’s responsible for the end of mankind)—not exactly the 1992 Dream Team.
Ok, so maybe this black movies kind of sh*t on black men thing has some legs. Who knew? (Don’t answer that)
Still, I needed possible reasons for this continued underrepresentation, and I managed to come up with four.
1. Movies dealing with black love are generally told from a black female point-of-view
This actually makes perfect (and practical) sense. Women are the target market for romantic comedies and relationship-centric dramas, so it stands to reason that movies focusing on black love are filled with optimistically realistic female characters and cardboard male caricatures. I mean, I don’t exactly see a group of sistas rushing out in groups to see It’s All My Fault, And It’s Probably Not Going To Get Any Better, a screwball romantic dramedy featuring Kerry Washington as “Monica Jenkins”, an Atlanta-area business woman who deals with the realization that, well, it’s all her fault, and it’s probably not going to get any better.
But, as much as I hate to say “white” movies follow the exact same formula, “white” movies follow the exact same formula. In this sense, Quincy McCall is really no different than Mr. Big.
2. There just aren’t that many black movies period
This is also true. There just aren’t going to be that many realistic depictions of black males in healthy black relationships if there aren’t that many black movies to begin with. I mean, if you look hard enough you have your independent fare like Love, Sex, and Eating The Bones and I’m Through with White Girls (The Inevitable Undoing of Jay Brooks), but you’re probably not going to see one of these playing at AMC Loews. Can’t complain about the Cajun wings if all the chickens are dead.
3. Well, you can’t really complain about it because these are realistic depictions. Just take a look around you. For the most part, ya’ll n*ggas aint sh*t. I’ve been trying to tell you! Duh! What the hell did you expect?
Umm, well, moving on…
4. It’s all about the balance
(Generally speaking) We (African-Americans) are relentless masochists, pain-seeking missiles defining ourselves by our struggles, our pain, our collective burdens, and our collective willingness to memorize each unnecessary stanza of “Lift Ev’ry Voice and Sing”. This obsession with personal and cultural agony comes out in our art, as we create music and movies designed to share as much as this pathos as possible with as many people as possible.
Considering the well-documented and unabashed misogyny present in hip-hop (and R&B), it makes sense that movies would carry a bit of an anti-male sentiment to even everything out; a delicate harmony of heartbreak creating the perfect balance of “gee, it really does suck to be black” blues.
Anyway, people of VSB.com: Do you think “black” movies—especially ones dealing with black love—have a tendency to paint black men in an unfairly and disproportionately negative light? If so, why do you think this is? Do you agree with any of the reasons I cited? Do you think there’s any truth behind the “balance” argument?
Also, (since I’m sure I forgot about a few movies) can anyone think of any other recent (don’t go citing some Sidney Poiter sh*t on me) movies featuring a black male character in a healthy and monogamous relationships with a black female? If an angst-ridden black blogger saw a Medea in the woods, would a screenplay make a sound?
The carpet is yours.
—The Champ
Well, I think black romance movies definitely do this, but black movies overall I think don’t because people who usually make black romance movies aint sh*t.
Just kidding…sorta
The only romantic films (both black and white) that I can think of that showed the women as slightly more off than the males are:
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Any movie with Vivica Fox
Any movie with Meg Ryan
Also, the only romantic comedy I loved was Clueless because it was based on a Jane Austen book and it was soo awesome. Also, because Paul Rudd is so hot and in the movie he was perfect!
hmm…so rom-com suck! Every romantic comedy I can think of definitely bashes men. Either the men are:
1. Players
2. Mama’s boys who don’t want to leave him
3. Afraid of commitment
4. Ugly
5. Liars
6. Snobs (Overly obsessed with status)
7. Afraid to show their true feelings
8. Batsh*t crazy
“The only romantic films (both black and white) that I can think of that showed the women as slightly more off than the males are:
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Any movie with Vivica Fox
Any movie with Meg Ryan”
you can probably add any movie with jennifer aniston in it as well (and katherine hegel too)
Well, do you know that you just described Matthew McConaughey, Vince Vaughn, and Owen Wilson romantic comedies?
The Brothers? I know I’m not the only one that watched it bored on a Saturday afternoon. It was….eh.
It’s sad for me to admit that there aren’t many films that portray black love in a positive light, let alone black love period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjK9JoHccBg
This movie was mad cute and honest.
Thank you for that! Searching for it NOW>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nah it had cheating black men so that’s out.
The Brothers? I know I’m not the only one that watched it bored on a Saturday afternoon. It was….eh.
i completely forgot about this movie. (which makes sense because it was completely forgettable)
I feel like Bill Belamy’s character cancels out the good black men in this movie.
I actually remember taking a mass media class and they showed some study with test audiences and how they winced at seeing two black people be intimate and they double hated black on white love. Have you noticed mainstream movies with black actors, they skip the love scene or fade to black? I remember my professor saying it was because directors know white americans are not comfortable seeing black love or naked black skin. Very sad but I’m sure there’s some truth to this.
I remember my professor saying it was because directors know white americans are not comfortable seeing black love or naked black skin. Very sad but I’m sure there’s some truth to this
this is true. you can also extend it to how “thicker”, curvier women are more likely to be seen as pornographic. a size zero model does a hanes commercial and nobody cares, but a chick with some junk in the truck does a lane bryant drawers commercial, and it’s a national incident
Speaking of that infamous Lane Bryant commercial, the first time I ever saw that commercial was in the presence of three ten-year-old boys (I was babysitting) and let’s just say that I think they gotten their first experience of being a man right then and there.
All I know is (according to my friend, one of the boys’ mother) that they wore the hell out of that DVR button, on that night.
It is more ‘p0rnographic’ because the curves are more noticable. This extends itself to real life. This is one reason (among many) women with big “girls” can’t wear the same tops, even though they are the right size. It just looks indecent.
Truestory! I have always had ample bossom and because it makes men and boyz salivate and I can have on a turtleneck and still get funny looks from women & sometimes men. A supervisor once told my supervisor that the tops I wear are too tight, I got right in his face and said I’m sorry that I’m distracting….BUT…There is no way to cover up a 38DD chest!!
“Truestory! I have always had ample bossom and because it makes men and boyz salivate and I can have on a turtleneck and still get funny looks from women & sometimes men.”
…….
LOL!! so true, i feel your pain. people can be so insensitive sometimes =P
that was supposed to be a reply to TiP…not the Champ, lol
Good Point! ie Erykah Badu’s video
If white americans do not like seeing black on black love scenes because of our skin color, its only because they can’t deal with how hot and sexy and colorful we are together rolling around on white sheets, along with the rhythmatic way we grind! Dang Haters! LOL!
I agree that #3 is probably correct. Except that it’s not only black men. If it makes you feel better…
There are nice men but male behaviour is sometimes best expressed in the words of a male friend “I don’t know why I do the things I do, is the jerkiness gene situated in the Y chromosome?”
“There are nice men but male behaviour is sometimes best expressed in the words of a male friend “I don’t know why I do the things I do, is the jerkiness gene situated in the Y chromosome?””
i think it comes from being attracted to women. if you look at it, everyone who’s attracted to women (men, lesbians, latifahs, etc) has some crazy in them
men, lesbians, latifahs, etc) .
Latifahs?!? *snickering* I love how you just have her in her own category. Bless your heart.
Yes, that definitely kilt me over and over again.
Hill Harper’s role wasn’t all that bad…
i honestly don’t remember. i was kind of overwhelmed, for lack of better words.
am i the only one who wants to see hill harper play a conniving, mean, and manipulative a**shole just once? i want to see if he can pull it off. you can even title the movie “fooled ya, didn’t i?”
@ The Champ
“am i the only one who wants to see hill harper play a conniving, mean, and manipulative a**shole just once? i want to see if he can pull it off. you can even title the movie “fooled ya, didn’t i?””
No you aren’t the only one. Something about that dude doesn’t sit right with me. I would to see him play the @sshole pretty boy.
Ta-Nehisi Coates called Hill “Captain Save-a-Nubian Princess” over at the Atlantic.com a few weeks back.
i gotta read that!
LOVE Ta-Nehisi.
Hill Harper has played a manipulative man. it was called “Romancing Jezebel”. He played a man who was obsessed with a black female porn to the point that he ddated a woman who looked like her. His obssession kept him from developing a good relationship.
there was also “Love, Sex and Eating the Bones” Same deal. Dating multitudes of women.
Hill Harper in Have Plenty. anyone remember that movie?
40 oz of love. So intoxicating.
he played that in hav plenty. oh wait. mean. nah. lol.
he was also in some movie with zoe saldana where he played a jerk. he’s always a smooth jerk though.
I was just about to mention Hav Plenty..
Yes, I have it on VHS..
#youcanjudgeme
He was a whore in the movie Loving Jezebel but I do see your point. I still love him though (and Kerry Washington and Taraji P. Henson, those are my 3 favorite black actors/actresses)
“It’s All My Fault, And It’s Probably Not Going To Get Any Better, a romantic dramedy featuring Kerry Washington as “Monica Jenkins”, an Atlanta-area business woman who deals with the realization that, well, it’s all her fault, and it’s probably not going to get any better.”
Show call : bitter black woman party of one…
This is the first thing today that made me laugh out loud!
Thank you.
you’re welcome and sh*t
It seems weird that film makers would keep making movies that perpetuate that negative, although sometimes true notion. It seems weirder to me because it hasn’t always been that way.
I.E Family Matters, The Cosby Show, The Fresh Prince of Bellaire. I mean, at some point we liked seeing happy successful black marriages/families, hell we were watching it for free, why would we then turn around and pay to hear, “JUST GIVE UP ALREADY. NIGGAS AIN’T SHIT, BITCHES AIN’T SHIT, AND YOU WILL ALL EITHER END UP A SAD BABY MAMA, IN AN EMOTIONALLY/PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP OR WITH A MAN WHO LOVES PENISES!”
Sometimes I feel like I just need to step away and look at the people around me. My parents celebrate 25 years of being married today, and I’d rather pattern my life after that, then subject my mind to a defeatist attitude about the black men I love soooo much. (Seriously, I <3 Black Men, can I get a T-shirt?)
Although I couldn't come up with any movies, I didn't come up with some shows, does that count? (Probably not, huh?)
lol I feel ya, Looking at films and reality shows, and the nightly news we can concor Ninjas aint Ish, the good ones don’t like sistas,etc. and etc…. but when I l go to VSB and look at my parents/grandparents and others I’e seen and grown up around positive black men/black love..it’snice to see…idk what the future holds for me, because I have always seen myself settling down with a black man, but sometimes it feels like a needle in a haystack..
Good analysis,
Guess it just works better with TV shows rather than movies. Even the Undercovers had a happy blk couple……Although the show got canceled.
Undercovers got canceled?!?! I really don’t know if the show was that good b/c I was always distracted by Ms. Gugu. I even considered asking my wife if she was fine enough where she would give me a *kanye shrug* if I told her that we slept together. Now I guess I don’t have to make that mistake. I guess this show getting canceled has saved my marriage. Who knew?
Even the Undercovers had a happy blk couple……Although the show got canceled.
in the past week or so, people have been using the undercover’s cancellation as proof that we don’t want to see happy black couples on screen. undercover’s wasn’t canceled because they featured a happy black couple, they were canceled because that was the single boringest show in the history of boredom. that show was so boring that even taylor swift probably even watched it once and said “damn…this is some boring-ass sh*t”
Yet Meet the Browns stays on television.
Lol, I can see I’ll be passing out touches like candy on halloween.
Lol I wish I could get that accent thingy. * I mean the word touche*
No matter how bored or disinterested you are, when a black movie featuring positive images of of black people comes out (or a TV show like Under Covers comes on. Just grit your dang teeth and bare it. Thats the only way things will change. We have to support positive images of black people or PRODUCERS will not want to produce positive black films and shows.
No not all of them will be great, but the more e support them any way the more our chances grow to get another show that might just be great. Its really a numbers issue, White shows fail all the time too, but because they have so many it doesn’t hurt them as much as it hurts us.
So what if the show is boring, Think of it as a social movement, or like voting which can also be boring but it means more than your boredom in the long run.
Plus, something being boring or “not good” has never stopped black people before, look at how (almost cursing) Negroes pile in front of their television to watch Meet the Browns or House of Payne. Neither of them are good and rarely are they entertaining but (almost cursing) negroes watch them any way because they want to support Tyler Perry.
So if you can do it for him do it for the future potential of better shows featuring black casts. No hero is coming to save us, and with the way we run up and throw our money at modern day minstrels I question whether or not many of us know that something is wrong. We have to save our selves.
So that a young black girl doesn’t grow up thinking that the majority black men are rapists, murderers, abusers, DL, drug dealers, buffoons, child molesters, prisoners and nut cases.
we have to change the messages we are sending out into the world about ourselves!
Its time for some LARGE SCALE POSITIVE AFFIRMATIONS.
“No matter how bored or disinterested you are, when a black movie featuring positive images of of black people comes out (or a TV show like Under Covers comes on. Just grit your dang teeth and bare it
i’m with you in theory, but i just can’t do that. there’s too much else i can be doing instead of wasting my time watching a boring ass show just because it features a couple mulattoes. i mean, if a new black restaurant opened in town, would you still support it after finding out the food and service were terrible?
That’s a major problem with many people right now. No one wants to sacrifice for anyone anymore, or anything.
If you want a new car; sacrifice and save the money for a down pymt, then you will not strapped with an exorbitant car pymt. You want your kids to be better equipted, sacrifice to place them in a better school.
Go to the darn show anyway and hold your girl’s hand and tell her how much you love her and how pretty she looks (I know you do that too much already, right) whisper it so the people in back of you don’t have to hear
As much as I would love to patronize every black establishment and watch every movie and tv show, #inthesetougheconomictimes that just isn’t smart.
Quality is VERY important now a days..even if you aren’t on a financial budget – time is everything. Why waste a minute if you don’t have too?
What needs to happen is a combination of 1. actors and businesses focusing and improving what they are selling, 2. marketing being top-notch, AND 3. folks supporting each other.
I wanted to like Gugu,(She talks pretty.) I mean Undercovers so much but the writing and such just wouldn’t let me do it. It would have been better suited for USA, FX, or TNT.
I did go on a rant over on my page about wanting this show to work just to see black people doing different ish on TV but for that to happen the show would have to be as as one of my high school teachers would’ve said. “Effin’ outstanding!”
It wasn’t. Boris, Gugu, and Major Dad failed me.
“I wanted to like Gugu,(She talks pretty.) I mean Undercovers so much but the writing and such just wouldn’t let me do it. It would have been better suited for USA, FX, or TNT.”
i agree. something about the show screamed USA network to me.
I tried to give Undercovers a chance and support a black couple on screen, especially Boris Kodjoe, but I just couldn’t. I think I pushed myself to see one full episode and was like dang I can’t wait til this is over. I got other more pressing stuff to do like cut my toenails.
This show didn’t even look like it would be good. The happy black couple- err? They were racially ambiguous in the commercial; there was Latin music playing in the background.
What made it more depressing for me is the fact that the show was produced by J.J. Abrams, whose supposed to be the ‘it’ television producer right now…
It seems like to me J.J. went ‘f*ck it, let me use this old script that I’ve written while I was still in college, high off of some w eed and was watching a “A Different World” marathon on TV’…
“I.E Family Matters, The Cosby Show, The Fresh Prince of Bellaire. I mean, at some point we liked seeing happy successful black marriages/families, hell we were watching it for free, why would we then turn around and pay to hear, “JUST GIVE UP ALREADY. NIGGAS AIN’T SHIT, BITCHES AIN’T SHIT, AND YOU WILL ALL EITHER END UP A SAD BABY MAMA, IN AN EMOTIONALLY/PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP OR WITH A MAN WHO LOVES PENISES!”
this makes so much sense. and these were all wildly successful shows, so it’s not like we were rejecting the notion of happy black families. hmm. i loved the parents in Everybody Hates Chris too. lol. so real.
see, that’s the problem i have with TP’s male characters. they’re all either way over the top domineering, or extremely weak. and i just don’t know that many black men who fit into those extremes.
i DO however, know plenty of men like Lee Plenty, or the characters in Love Jones, or The Best Man, etc.
the basis of ANY fictional story, no matter the genre, is for the main character(s) to have a conflict they face. no matter if it’s aliens, a positive HIV result, a cheating man, or their own psyche. you have no conflict, you have no story. now it can be argued that the conflicts presented in Cosby and Fresh Prince were more “positive” for the community, but i guess it’s hard to pull that off ‘Theo gets a D on his report card’ for an hour and a half.
i love Black Men… i do. but think about how many ‘video-girl’ type women you know in real life, and think about how they are portrayed in abundance in music videos. i suppose that’s what you mean by the balancing act, but i say… if you want to see something different… write a movie about the life and times of Champ ‘Nem. lol.
i don’t exactly know why this ended up here, but this was my individual response to the actual post. lol
if you want to see something different… write a movie about the life and times of Champ ‘Nem. lol.
Brilliant! I will second the idea of Champ and PJ writing a screenplay about a couple of well-adjusted VSBs. It’s gotta be better than the straight-to-Skinemax stuff coming out nowadays. N-Secure for the loss. Dallas Cowboys.
I hope it comes out after the VSB BBQ.
“Brilliant! I will second the idea of Champ and PJ writing a screenplay about a couple of well-adjusted VSBs.”
Then let’s put our money where our mouth is and support them at the ground level to “make it happen”. That’s what we need to perfect, so that we can tell the stories we want to see,
How can we use the internet as a social medium to our advantage? Often we struggle with supporting for example, black beauty supply shops, and grocery stores. To support two VSB’s that we’ve never seen (VSB BBQ could change that!) would be a phenomenal experiment at best.
You guys are educated, forward thinking, adequately funded individuals!
The Million Man March started out as a thought, now every time you turn around there’s a “Million _______ _______” every week.
Hell, we’re VSB family right?
“It seems weirder to me because it hasn’t always been that way.”
Because times are changing. My daddy and his generation are family men. They don’t believe in divorce and they believe in the traditional roles as males taking care of the family, etc. This generation is diff. It seems like it’s more about being a player or a thug and directors know this sells.
I’m 30 years old and growing up my granfather was a family man, my parents were married for 18 years and my dad was a “family man” only when he wanted to be. He was a great provider and believed in taking care of family first i just don’t think at the time he was not ready to be in a monogamous relationship. He has grown up since and seems to be a better husband to his second wife. I learned how to be a man because of both my father and grandfather but, I really think I learned how to treat a woman and respect family from my g/f, and my mother. Real talk growing up my mom challenged me to be the best I could be and to be a “better man” than my father was before he turned his life around.
Great point. Sometimes the man just isn’t ready. There are so many reasons why people do what they do. It’s nearly impossible to narrow it down to one reason alone. You must have had a really strong mother. I also like how you included your girlfriend too. Some people forget it’s okay to learn from your significant other.
I don’t think so. Some do some don’t. It’s not unbalanced if you remove the perry films (which I don’t watch)…but uhm, it can’t be worse than the daily misogyny that we deal with in hip hop music…
T.I said his oversexualized images in his videos are a reality from the street and what he experienced. So the same could be said for black films that don’t portray black men in a positive light. y’all real sensitive when it’s about you but when it’s about it’s negative things about us – it just real….there’s a contradiction in there somewhere no?
Why so personal?
Why attacking instead of consoling or encouraging?
Why not affirmatives instead criticism?
Sure, somewhere in there we should take credit for trying to overcome society’s role for us and falling short based on what we felt we had. But I suppose when everyone but us does it, its alright.
You kickin’ the men as they lay down on this topic. VSS? status in question.
“Why so personal?
Why attacking instead of consoling or encouraging?
Why not affirmatives instead criticism?”
I was going to ask brothas the same thing.
For Colored Girls is about the dumb, bad, life altering decisions that women make in the name of love… and the process that women have to go through to love self before finding love.
Ntozake Shange said “this is a woman’s trip”…
So I really don’t understand how a conversation about the mistakes we make/made in love are construed as bashing black men.
I don’t know why it makes brothas who aren’t these guys mad at us rather than the predators among you.
The truth is that women face consequences that men don’t personally have to deal with regarding things like rape, infertility, abortion… we won’t even get into the climbing HIV stats… and those aren’t all the result of brothas who have been in prison.
These are the outcomes of women making bad decisions of who tho love and trust… the wrong pen*s can ruin your life.
A lot of black women suffer bad outcomes encouraging and affirming the wrong men.
And that’s when it becomes personal.
The conversation is about why you wanna treat me so bad when you know I love you.
The conversation is about why so many of us are single without partners, unwed, raising children on our own.
That conversation is real for many of us… and when we tell a story we got to recognize that before we can get to place where we can love.
We live in a culture that tells us we ask for too much, where men tell us that they aren’t afraid of commitment they are just afraid of committing to the wrong woman at the wrong time, that they love us but they aren’t in love with us.
And can we be real… that honesty doesn’t inspire a positive conversation for women ~JS
that was so eloquent and poetic. *snaps*
Um THIS!
“I don’t know why it makes brothas who aren’t these guys mad at us rather than the predators among you.”
Because most men realize that we’re perceived as a monolith, which is what you just did with that statement there (and this tends to cut across race). Men Are Borg, so to speak. All men are accountable for the bad actions of individuals acting on their own.
It’s actually the gender version of what Black people as a whole go through alot regarding depictions of race – that thing that makes you say “I hope he wasn’t black” when they report on some murderer or thief on the news.
I don’t think women go through that as much as men do. If a woman commits a terrible crime like murder, most women probably don’t mumble “I hope it wasn’t a woman!” Women aren’t made to feel responsible for the actions of other women nearly as much, if at all.
In other words, “Men Are All The Same” (in a bad way, not a good way) is seared into everyone’s brain by the culture at large.
Monlithicization is bad, and when people are subjected to it, they come to resent it, even if subconsciously.
“Because most men realize that we’re perceived as a monolith”
^So are women. We are both in the same boat here. I think we need to stop finger pointing of who has it worse, remember that all this ‘ish sucks, and work together to do better. That also doesn’t mean we gotta lie or deny our truth and experiences. Both sexes can tell the truth about themselves, their experiences, and the people they dealt with without it being representative of every man or woman.
I hear what you are saying. But that fact is that Jhane Sez was very clear in not responding to you all as a monilith… She was clear about not speaking about ‘good black men’ but about predators. You, however, responded as though she didn’t make that distinction. I think black women (VSS) are very consistent about making this distinction. #thingsvssnevergetcreditfor
This is an important oversite because it is the only way that we women will be allowed to tell out truths, our experiences, without every black man silencing us for the good of the PR of perceived moniliths to the world, the community, and themselves. We must be able to tell these stories….
“So I really don’t understand how a conversation about the mistakes we make/made in love are construed as bashing black men.”
i actually don’t feel that this play (and movie) is male-bashing at all, but (although they might be a tad bit too sensitive) i do understand where cats who do feel this way are coming from. it’s like, can i just get one movie that features and focuses on the relationship trials and tribulations of a young black dude who’s not a player, pimp, reformed criminal, reformed addict, professional athlete, or with a non-black woman? it’s akin to the way many black women feel about hip-hop. yeah, i understand this is about your life and your struggles, but can i just get one popular rapper who’s consistent with his love and respect for black women?
in both cases, i think the frustration lies with a lack of a balance.
“i do understand where cats who do feel this way are coming from. it’s like, can i just get one movie that features and focuses on the relationship trials and tribulations of a young black dude who’s not a player, pimp, reformed criminal, reformed addict, professional athlete, or with a non-black woman?”
This I get…
The interesting thing about black romance in the movies is that it is 180 degrees from writing romance novels.
The rules that you have to follow are very strict, the list is about a page and a half long… for starters the main hero can’t have many of the characteristics that brothas had issues with.
The characters have to be monogamous, with no kids unless they are widowed, college education preferred, and condoms are always required. ~JS
“i think the frustration lies with a lack of a balance.”
Exactly!
First, I want to give props for your Prince reference.
Second, thanks for articulating that. I do think this movie/choreopoem is a woman’s journey (I’m not going to see it, nor am I interested in seeing it).
The issues that brothers have with this movie and art that depict the things you articulated, are some of the things you stated that a lot of brothas feel sistas could solve before it becomes a problem that changes your life for the worst (i.e. bad pen*s, HIV stats, etc.)
I understand that there are issues that they have no control over (rape, abuse).
I always ask and wonder: why are women dating or in relationships when they have pain they are dealing with? Take time to heal yourself before you move forward. However much time that takes. Truth is, a lot of women are jumping into dating/relationship after getting out of a bad situation.
This is not solving the issues many women have with men, it only exacerbates them. Heal sistas. Heal until you are 100% ready to deal with the possibility that you may be hurt again.
The ‘bash’ is the perpetual negative images associated with Black Men in the media. Most of us expect it from 2520′s, but when sistas are co-signing like they have been, embracing this counter-culture of Black Love, etc. it stirs dissent, and that’s what this is.
I hear women say that we need to talk about the problems before we can deal with them. Well, this play debuted in 1974, right?. When are you or we going to deal with it? Because we’ve been talking about it for over 30 years. If a person/group has been hurting for 30 years, the conversation needs to move into the solution phase at some point don’t you think? This isn’t happening. It’s just a cycle of hurt that Sistas keep embracing and it’s sad.
Men have asked and keep asking: what’s wrong? How can we make it right? to no avail or answer. THEN, when we suggest answers and solutions, we are attacked as insensitive, condescending, enablers, etc. THEN, if we leave you among yourselves to discuss/deal with you issues, you criticize that we are not trying to be apart of the dialogue or that we are not interested in a solution. All the while…we’ve got our own issues. It’s hard. For everybody.
I hear about the ‘pain’ on blogs, radio, movies, print, television, and in person; but I never hear any solutions. From the people who state they are hurting the most: Black Women.
Bond. BlkBond.
Um, touche.
I always ask and wonder: why are women dating or in relationships when they have pain they are dealing with? .
I don’t want to give away too much of the movie, but there was a situation in the movie, where Phylicia Rashad’s character told one of the women, that she had to take responsibilty of the part she played in the fiasco. And I seriously LOVED that they made a point to bring that up. Because to be honest, not dealing with pain and working on resolving it within yourself plays a significant role in many of the issues going on in the world.
I agree with some of your points but many seem unrealistic. Everyone dates before they heal or has problems facing their issues…everyone black, white, male, female, etc. I think women do a much better job of letting their emotions out than men do. Men are the torch bearers of hiding emotion that comes out in behavior. I do agree that women need to do a better job in mate selection however I have to acknowledge that not all wolves come in wolves clothing. Unless a woman is psychic, how will she always know that once she has s.ex with a man, he’s going to “change”? I do agree there needs to be more emphasis on a solution which is why I think MEN need to do a better job when it comes to their actions. A woman, cannot replace your father and teach you how to be a man (not you). She also shouldn’t wear the blame because Mike decided to cheat on her. Cheating or having multiple s.ex partners without protection is a HUGE problem amongst black men. Research after research shows that black women get cheated on, mistreated, abused, etc. Plain and simple. Like I said, I am one who accepts responsibility for all of my actions however I cannot ignore the over-whelming # of black males with no role models, fathers who continue to mistreat women who bear the blunt of the blame. We are not the agressors. And the truth is, many women are victims in some way or another. I agree women need to get it together and come up with solutions to their problems. I also agree that men need to get it together and find ways to deal with their repressed anger so they don’t take it out on the weaker: Women.
SFG,
I don’t think it’s unrealistic to take yourself away from dating to heal from pain, sort out personal issues, and come back a complete person.
**spoiler for my readers**
When I got sick, I had a year and a half of celibacy. I wasn’t in a position to sleep with anyone (physically, mentally, or emotionally). I had to heal (physically). During that time I learned a lot about myself and about women, moreover, my choices with women. Did I want to? No. But in hindsight, in a way I’m thankful, because the way I was prior, I may still have been one of the men out here perpetuating the things that harm that many of these women allude to.
Point is, just because everyone else is dating/seeing people with personal issues, doesn’t mean Black Women should also. Why? As most of you admit: YOU. ARE. HURTING! You are the self-proclaimed ‘mule of the world’ (Zora Neale Hurston–your prophetess literary goddess who eschews all crevices of your pain), so why would you (a) engage in a something (dating/relationships) when you are not complete? and (b) why would you respond with ‘they do it too’? Neither of which address your issue or how to solve it.
Men are trying to do better job; but their is dissent among your ranks that leaves alot of lines blurred. For example, I had a friend go on a date with a girl in college. After the date, he didn’t try anything, took her home. She stopped calling him because he wasn’t ‘aggressive’ enough. Two weeks later, same friend goes on a date with another woman, tries to kiss her & go inside, she stops calling him because he is too aggressive. Point is: Women are not monolithic, notably, Black Women. We, as men, are forever and eternally trying to figure out what the hell y’all want.
be back…(TBC)
No that’s not realistic. I was celibate for 20 years because I knew I wasn’t ready nor was the men I was seeing to handle what i wanted out of s.ex. I also was celibate for a year recently…very recently. Yes, I know the resident perv does NOT sleep around can be shocking. I absolutely agree that we need to heal before we continue in life. I was just saying that obviously majority people are not doing this. I also agree that there are double standards and hypocrisy as we will jump your bones harder than a line backer if you refuse us. No one is perfect. My point is, I think that I see an awful trend of blaming women for all that ails men and not enough emphasis on the man.
Oh I meant to say “no that’s not UNrealistic” typo changed the meaning of my first sentence.
@Bond. BlkBond…
“First, I want to give props for your Prince reference.”
Completely off topic… I have about 1800 original Prince tracks, covers, live performances, and unreleased tracks. When I stan I stan hard… so thanks for noticing.
“Second, thanks for articulating that. I do think this movie/choreopoem is a woman’s journey (I’m not going to see it, nor am I interested in seeing it).
The issues that brothers have with this movie and art that depict the things you articulated, are some of the things you stated that a lot of brothas feel sistas could solve before it becomes a problem that changes your life for the worst (i.e. bad pen*s, HIV stats, etc.)”
I understand why you have no interest in the film but part of me wishes that you would… perhaps it might give you some perspective on why these problems catch us.
Most times its a trust vs. lies equation and girls are frequently told that we don’t have the head for higher math.
Rare is the case that a woman had full disclosure and made a choice to get involved with bad pen*s… and they usually stay because they are lied to…
So who do you trust.
“I hear about the ‘pain’ on blogs, radio, movies, print, television, and in person; but I never hear any solutions. From the people who state they are hurting the most: Black Women.”
And the truth I think is most brothas don’t like the solution to the problem… waiting for sex, demanding monogamy, answering questions about their behavior/past, not being forgiven for ‘slipping up’…
In other words being vetted.
The human side of us wants to believe that we are the exception not the rule… we don’t want to be wrong in our judgements and brothas really don’t want to be judged.
True story…
I was in a parking lot and a man came running up behind me and I maced him… he was trying to give me a book I had dropped and I felt horrible… he told me no worries because that is what I was supposed to do when a strange man ran after me, that is what he would want his sisters to do in the same situation.
I have heard various versions of this story repeated by other women in other situations.
What we want is for you to understand that we need to be careful and that it isn’t you we are fighting, but ourselves we are protecting… that some of our behaviors are an attempt to avoid tragedy.
“The ‘bash’ is the perpetual negative images associated with Black Men in the media. Most of us expect it from 2520?s, but when sistas are co-signing like they have been, embracing this counter-culture of Black Love, etc. it stirs dissent, and that’s what this is.”
This is interesting… sincere question.. how do you want to be portrayed.
The significant other mirrored many of your thoughts above… and I had to point out to him that if I was using him as a main character when he was in his 20’s the portrayal might come off as bashing.
He had a no relationship policy, and a map of the world. His goal was to put a pin in every country on the map representing a woman that he had slept with…
This is real… even though this isn’t who he is today. At the time all his boys co-signed his behavior and some even started maps of their own.
Is this bashing.
How do you want to see yourself on the big screen… what does that guy look like. ~JS
Sorry I had to leave abruptly, duty called.
For curiosities sake, I am a little intrigued about the work; however, I think it’s only right for me to see the play before I see the picture. To be honest, it is unlikely that I will contribute money to Tyler Perry. I will allow someone else to and watch off their dime, but in no way will I support him financially as his views and ideals of us (Black People) do not line up with mine.
In reference to Trust: No one is guaranteed full disclosure about anything. Sistas…that’s life. I know that seems insensitive, but seriously? I’m not guaranteed to live another day because I am locked safely behind the door of my home among friends/family. Life itself is a gamble, but we don’t stop living. There are no ‘safe’ bets, especially when dealing with matters of the heart. Every I go on a date, after I spend my money to be a gentleman, the woman I take home could jump in bed with a man who spent all day beating her a$$; yet, I can’t let that affect me to the point where I stop taking women on dates, or use that possibility as an excuse to be disrespectful. How insane is that?! C’mon now…
In reference to brothers not liking the solutions (examples you provided above): Who CARES?!?! You are protecting YOURSELF!! Who gives a d*mn if Leroy is pissed because you won’t put out on the first date?!? Who cares if Jerome is upset you’re making him wait 3 months to even smell it?! Rule number #1 (per Bond Sr.): Self-Preservation.
So who gives a fk….
You do.
Because the truth is, a lot of women aren’t making guys wait. Alot of women aren’t holding men to higher standards, and thus, a lot of women have lowered the bar, which makes alot of other women lower their bars, just to compete. All the while, these women (all of them) are compromising their self-respect and integrity for a part of a man, rather than the entire man and the best he can offer.
Again, women are selling themselves short.
You don’t have to either, because the truth is, as a man, I’ll reassure you, I’m not. If the woman I want/with is not 100% what I want…I’m not going to be with her. Period. I don’t compromise with something as valuable as a relationship, knowing everything that you invest into a relationship, women shouldn’t either…but alas, many fear being alone. At this point you need to just ask yourself what means more: your principles and integrity or companionship, and at what cost?
Last, below are some of the characters I actually see around in real life:
1.Savonne (Love Jones)
2. Darius Lovehall (Love Jones)
3. Jason (Allen Payne in Jason’s Lyric)
4. Furious Styles (Boyz in the Hood)
5. Dwayne Wayne (Different World)
5. Ron Johnson (Different World)
6. Cliff Huxtable (Cosby Show)
7. Theo Huxtable (Cosby Show)
8. Martin Payne (Martin)
9. Tommy (Martin)
10. Col. Taylor (Different World)
11. Walter (Different World)
12. Vernon Gaines (Different World)
13. Easy Rollins ( Devil in a Blue Dress)
14. Shaft (Richard Roundtree..lol)
15. Dap & Crew & Big Brother Almighty (School Daze)
15. Grady (School Daze)
15. Henry Lowe (Great Debaters)
16. Black Male Cast of Tuskegee Airmen (4+ which includes Laurence Fishburne, Cuba Gooding Jr, Allen Paye, Mehki Phifer, and Courtney B. Vance)
That’s at least 20 off the top. I’m sure I could find more, so TP should be able to create 1. I know some of the characters are questionable, but at least they have enough depth to where you disdain lies with their ideology, a particular action, etc. rather, than because they are Black Men, or because they are being compared to Black Women, or because they are present.
Bond.
Very, very, very smart comment, brother.
If to generalize pejoratives is alright then there was never a problem with racism. Because it is the same logic. Minor variations.
Personally, loneliness sucks but its better to avoid charming idiots and feel emotionally imploded than to feel used and diminished.
Your response, though it has moments of truth, is far from absolute. And being any kind of a woman behind any kind of a man doesn’t put you at risk until you decide forgo what you know is safe.
I wish we could be friends, so you could understand that my words are of love but it is fine no matter how you see them, I respect how you see the World, though I may not agree.
I really like this site. It offers a tremendous community and endless humor. And this is to anybody reading this: Personal growth is only going to come through yourself. I have no idea where you are in your maturation but looking backwards will trip you up every time.
“T.I said his oversexualized images in his videos are a reality from the street and what he experienced. So the same could be said for black films that don’t portray black men in a positive light. y’all real sensitive when it’s about you but when it’s about it’s negative things about us – it just real….there’s a contradiction in there somewhere no?”
no.
I don’t think so. Dramatical characters often have issues, period. And dramatical characters are the ones that win attention and awards. It’s easy to play a happy person with no obvious issues. AND if a movie is centered around a relationship, its gotta have some issues! No one is going to watch a movie that is totally centered around a happy relationship. where is the climax (sp)?
But wait. there are way more black male filmmakers than there are black women. Black folk aint never happy when it comes to movies. its either too negative or too positive and unrealistic.
Pause.
How Courtland gonna mention Paul Robeson…would Othello be considered a positive representation of a Black man? and then the positive ones that were mentioned like Lance in My Family Wedding, he shot down?
“How Courtland gonna mention Paul Robeson…would Othello be considered a positive representation of a Black man?”
definitely! (well, definitely…if you take away the jealous rage and the murder)
“No one is going to watch a movie that is totally centered around a happy relationship. where is the climax (sp)?”
Yup, and furthermore, where is the conflict? If the movie is centered around the relationship, the conflict has to be within the relationship or it’s unwatchable. lol
The only time it would be cool to have a perfectly functioning couple is if they’re the antithesis of the dysfunctional couple (for comic relief, perhaps? lol) or if the movie is centered around another conflict outisde of their relationship.
I’ve been going through my collection of movies to find any that match the criteria above………
Coming To America (he does get married at the end)
Five Fingers (husband & wife really messed that white boy up)
Um…………I’m gonna need some more time…………
Love, Sex and Eating the Bones? Hav Plenty?
*scratches head*
Does Crooklyn count?
i never saw hav plenty. but, i guess crooklyn would count.
“I mean, I don’t exactly see a group of sistas rushing out in groups to see It’s All My Fault, And It’s Probably Not Going To Get Any Better, a romantic dramedy featuring Kerry Washington as “Monica Jenkins”, an Atlanta-area business woman who deals with the realization that, well, it’s all her fault, and it’s probably not going to get any better”.
LMAO!!
Every story told is geared towards women, that’s why there’s always a love interest. Plus I think majority of women’s stories don’t have successful, stable partners and cookie-cutter happy endings. Though I think its a huge shame that black people can’t find one thing redeeming about their men…myth or not.
Nigerian movies are the flipside btw, the women are usually portrayed as conniving, money-grabbing, backstabbing hoes trying to take down the mild-mannered, long suffering fantastically wealthy man.
Our people just like to hate on our people.
“Nigerian movies are the flipside”
YES!!! Nollywood shows NO types of sympathy on the women in the stories.
//Nigerian movies are the flipside btw, the women are usually portrayed as conniving, money-grabbing, backstabbing hoes trying to take down the mild-mannered, long suffering fantastically wealthy man.//
So, I’m slightly obsessed with Nigerian soap operas and movies and this is so right. I definitely noticed that most of the women were a little off, even the successful ones were seen as cold and conniving. The men do sometimes have their flaws, but its mostly ending up with the wrong woman!
Do any of y’all watch the show Tinsel? That is my ish!
If you enjoy Nigerian movies, you’ll love “Anacostia – the series”, a soap opera web series set in Washington, DC. All of the episodes are on vimeo and on their Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/ANACOSTIA-The-Series/121834845549
I think that is why people love Nigerian movies, like they love Black movies. There is a certain aspect of truth, (i.e. there are some crazy conniving women out there), but its more like a study in extremes. Just like all black men aren’t horrible oppressors, there are some, and people can relate with that. Besides, negative stuff almost always sells better than positive stuff, no matter what the color the cast it.
“Nigerian movies are the flipside btw, the women are usually portrayed as conniving, money-grabbing, backstabbing hoes trying to take down the mild-mannered, long suffering fantastically wealthy man.”
i had no idea there was a booming nigerian movie industry. who knew?
Champ, Nigeria has the third largest film industry in the world. The US and India are first and second respectively. In the Washington, DC area, Nigerian and Ghanaian DVDs can be purchased for $5 to $10 at African shops that sell food, calling cards, etc. The movies, which often have several parts, are like soap operas. I love watching Black movies that are not filmed in NY, CA or ATL.
To that end, I recently started watching Black web series. I recommend “Anacostia – the series” (http://anacostia-thewebseries.com/episodes.html and on FB), “Celeste Bright” (http://celestebright.com/), “Ahshe” (http://www.ahshe.com/ and on FB), and “Confessions 55″ (http://confessions55.com/).