Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Pop Culture, Race & Politics

On Mourning An Adult Entertainer

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The deaths of Hank Gathers and Reggie Lewis were probably the celebrity deaths that hit me the hardest. Part of this had to do with age. (I was 11 when Gathers passed and 14 when Lewis did.) But, even more than that, I felt connected to them. I didn’t know either of these men. But they were basketball players, like me. And they both died on what was supposed to be the safest, friendliest, and happiest place a basketball player can be: the basketball court. Both deaths saddened and scared the fuck out of me. (Sadly, my friend and former teammate Richard Jones died in a similar manner 10 years ago.)

I mourned them through memory. I (obviously) didn’t have the benefit of going to YouTube and watching old highlight clips, so instead of remembering them as they were in their last moments, I’d think of how they were on the court. And I’m sure many of the hundreds of thousands who also mourned their deaths did so in a similar manner.

This process wasn’t too dissimilar from how most of us mourn entertainers. Instead of thinking of them as dead, we tend to recall and reflect on the reasons why we were fans. We listen to their albums again, read their books again, watch their movies again, laugh at their stand-up routines again, read and watch all the features and interviews about them again; sometimes we’ll even scour the earth to possess all the things they produced that we don’t already possess. And sometimes, their deaths will make us consume even more of their work. 

We do this for two reasons: One, because it helps us feel better. We want to remember and embrace why we were fans because it makes us smile. The smiles are bittersweet, but they help. Also, this consumption is how we, as fans, honor their memories. We didn’t know them personally, so we can’t reflect on personal memories. Shit, in most instances we don’t even know what type of person they were. But we do know how their work resonated, and a posthumous recognition of their work is our way of eulogizing them.

With one exception.

Angela Rabotte was a 26-year-old mother who was found murdered last week. She disappeared two Fridays ago, and her body was found Thursday. She had been shot.

This by itself is a tragic story. Rabotte was a mother, a daughter, a friend, and much more. A person people loved and will miss.

But, as tragic as Rabotte’s death was, I’m writing about her today because of her (former) occupation.

Those familiar with the thousands of WorldStar/YouTube/Vimeo, etc twerking and/or stripping videos out there might recognize Rabotte as “Sexy Climax”, a popular Atlanta stripper. I’m not sure which club(s) she worked at, but I do know she was popular enough to be featured in a few WorldStar videos.

Perhaps you never heard of Climax. But you might be familiar with the Twerk Team, Cubana Lust, Lanipop, and the dozens more strippers, twerkers, video vixens, and porn stars who’ve been able to use the internet to garner some national name recognition.

Regardless of what you think of their particular type of entertainment, you can’t deny that they’re entertainers. They work to create and cultivate a sexual fantasy, and the people who consume their form of entertainment might spend as much time watching their videos as they do watching their favorite actors or listening to their favorite rappers.

But, when an adult entertainer dies, the process we use to mourn other entertainers just doesn’t seem to fit. I’ve seen Sexy Climax at work. But now that she’s dead, it just doesn’t feel right to watch her videos anymore. Same with all the other adult entertainers I’m familiar with who have passed. I don’t re-watch the videos I’m familiar with, I don’t scour the internet to find work I haven’t seen yet, and I definitely don’t fantasize about them anymore.

And I think that’s it. The fantasy part is what makes things…different. For instance, Whitney Houston existed as a singer, but we also recognized that she was a real person while appreciating her voice. Angela Rabotte was just as real of a person as Whitney Houston was. But, the people whose work revolves around sexual fantasy tend to be processed in a different way by the people who knew of them because of their work. Basically, they’re objectified. Appreciating her work posthumously the same way you appreciated it while she was alive doesn’t just feel wrong. It feels rude.

This idea transcends entertainment. Think of the cute barista in your work building or the co-worker you have a crush on. If they died tomorrow, would you still have the same sexual thoughts about them you did before? I doubt it. The nature of sex-based thoughts makes it rather, for lack of a better term, “creepy” to have them about someone no longer alive.

I’m sure there is someone out there who’s compiling an archive of Sexy Climax’s work. To honor her memory the way he (or she) remembered her. Which is their right, of course. But, I can’t do that. Because every time I think of Sexy Climax now, I think of Angela Rabotte instead.

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

Filed Under:
Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a contributing editor for EBONY.com. He resides in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes.

  • Dm

    Typo at the word Founded

    • The Champ

      thanks

      • Dm

        Angela Rabotte was a 26-year-old mother who was========> founded <======

        the typo is here
        founded

        • The Champ

          I found and fixed it. thanks again

  • ratchet d-Ibaka

    I’m not understanding your process of thinking as it applies to adult entertainers. She is just as human as Whitney ever was (not that you mentioned she was half human), so why is the mourning any different? Reading this really rubbed me the wrong way. It even pissed me off.

    • The Champ

      it’s different because of how we (generally) consume their work.

      if a popular singer/rapper/actor dies, we tend to mourn by watching their movies and/or listening to their albums non-stop.

      if a popular adult entertainer dies, mourning them the same way — by compiling and watching their sex-themed movies/videos/clips — just doesn’t feel right.

      what exactly pisses you off about that?

      • ratchet d-Ibaka

        Thanks for that explanation, now I get it. To be honest, to me the piece read like a joke because of her line of work.

  • nillalatte

    26? smdh… Nope, can’t say I could have a chexual fantasy with a known dead person. Isn’t there a scientific name/disease/disorder for people who enjoy humping the dead, literally? Maybe too many episodes of Criminal Minds. *shrugs

    • kidvideo

      Does that also go for dead celebrities that were sex symbols?

      • nillalatte

        Never fantasized about a celebrities. Never fantasized about anyone dead. That’s a lil cray cray.

    • The Renaissance Man

      Necrophilia

      • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com/ Ricky

        That’s wanting to have chex with dead people.

        • http://brown-c6h12o6.tumblr.com/ AfroPetite

          He got it right, Wanting to fugg dead people is necrophilia.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

    Does anyone remember the death of Lori Alexia from a couple of years ago? Yeah…that one was pretty sad and it could have been prevented. Before you ask me to tell the story, google her and then read about what happened to her

    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

      Thanks for the headsup. I didn’t know she had passed. I had wondered what happened to her. :( Though reading a story, it sounds like a case of when keeping it real goes wrong, or literally don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. She will be missed.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

        You know what it really sounds like? Something you hear about everyday, but the only difference is the person is famous this time around.

    • John Shannon

      I really didn’t know that………… this post now makes the idea and/or action of remembering someone you don’t know personally through their work definitely has a Force to it. Nobody goes out their way to “find” the real identities of exotic dancers and adult films stars (as that would be creepy and stalker-like in itself) but in finding out they have passed by any means does bring out awkwardness and other fskw feelings

      • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

        fskw = few or does it mean an internet acronym i’m not up on yet? :) (i’m thinking, like nsfw)

        • John Shannon

          It means Feel Some Kind of Way

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

        I stumbled across it a couple of years ago when I was looking for something in reference to Brooklyn’s legacy in hip hop- that’s when I ran into that. That’s the internet rabbit hole for you…

        • John Shannon

          True; I mean I don’t go around checking for the biographies of strippers, video vixens and adult stars but Damn……

    • Michelle

      I am afraid to type her name up, on my work computer.

    • The Champ

      Yeah, I remember hearing about her. There’s also another popular black adult actress who recently passed (i cant remember her name, though). and in both cases, when I see people still sharing their scenes and talking about how much they want to f**k them, it feels weird to me.

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/pervertedalchemist1 Perverted Alchemist

        I think her name was Alicia Tyler, if I’m not mistaken. Her death came as a surprise to a lot of people because she just dropped dead and no one knew what was wrong with her- not even Alicia herself.

  • kidvideo

    Interesting topic…a few of her clips may go viral, but most folks will watch to see the girl who was murdered and not the chick twerkin wit the phat a$$.

    But i wouldnt feel weird about watching her perform(and enjoying it) while acknowledging that is/was a human that had hopes,dreams, and ambitions who was comfortable with her body…and its people out there that will miss her.

    She could have came up with a better stage name tho…but…whatever.

  • Obsidian Files

    “Everything all exposed you’re, playin yaself
    With those skin tight jeans baby you’re, playin yaself
    With those hooker type wears hon you’re, playin yaself
    You’re, playin yaself, you’re, playin yaself”
    -Jeru Tha Damaja

    Good Morning Champ, everyone,
    Interesting topic, and in many ways, goes right to the heart of something I took up last week during Panama’s turn at bat.

    So, let’s dive right in, shall we?

    For me, the best thing I can do when someone I’ve known or in this case, has heard of in passing actually passes, is consider what I can learn from the live they lived. I mean, in a very real sense, that is the whole point of funerals, obituaries, memorials and the like; they are often referred to as “celebrations of life”. And as one who has seen far and away more than his fair share of such things, I really do wonder if we, Black folk that is, have learned anything much at all. I mean, for example, we have what I would consider a deeply troubling and unhealthy fascination with “fame”, celebrity, entertainment. It is a well documented fact that we watch more television and consume more “entertainment”-oriented products than anyone else, again, taken together as a group of people. And the old shopworn excuses, er, explanations…well, they simply don’t work for me. You know, the idea that, because, Racism, Black folk are drawn more to entertainment because its one of the few niches where we can supposedly “make it”.

    Rubbish.

    I think it’s time – and I also think that Black folk are grown enough – to recognize, and accept, the following simple truth:

    That we choose to indulge to the point of gluttony, our Thirst To Be Entertained…and that many of us will do anything to be Wh*res.

    Simple as.

    The passing of Ms. “S*xy Cl*max”, as she was known, puts yet another nail in the coffin, pardon the pun, into the notion or idea that Black Women, somehow are being prevented from expressing the full range of their s*xuality – so sayeth the socalled “Black Power Feminists”. We’ve been examining many of their “arguments” and have, upon closer inspection and a bit of Socratic questioning, found them quite wanting. Atlanta, perhaps second only to Harlem as the most storied Black space in all of America, is a literal hotbed (whew, the double entendres!) of “Skrippers” – so much so that “reality shows” have been made about it. Odes to them are made by not just the local rappers, but those from across the nation; and as your post points to today (and the aforementioned “series”), Black Women can and often do, make quite a bit of coin for themselves, shaking their moneymakers. All of these facts, completely undermine the socalled Black Power Feminists arguments about how supposedly “kept down” Black Women writ large are when it comes to such things. As I have argued last week – and to which I have found no one to seriously, let alone directly challenge, I might add – it’s hard to think up another group of Women in America who is MORE s*xually liberated, than Black Women.

    Ms. Rabotte, was the proof.

    Ahhh, but you see, therein layeth the rub: what many socalled Black Power Feminists, and to be frank their enablers among the socalled “Urban Thinking Classes”, ahem, will attempt the following retort – that, somehow, Ms. Rabotte’s untimely passing says something about how her life isn’t seen as valuable as Hank the Bank, or Len Bias – you know, the whole “Black Male Privilege” canard.

    Here’s the problem, though:

    Choices, have consequences. While Women, in this case Black ones, were clamoring for “the right to choose” what they weren’t doing was digging on the fact that one must consider the consequences of actions taken. What Black Power Feminists really want is to be able to (seemingly; it really doesn’t work for them either – think about it) twerk it up something fierce, ride the pole, and still be Respectable and to still be Respected. Sorry ladies, but Life simply doesn’t work that way. If you choose these things, you must then accept the consequences that come with them – just as if I choose the life of a drugs trafficker, I must then accept the very real and likely consequences of such a occupation. Which more often than not, will mean lengthy incarceration, if not death.

    Or both.

    No, all “skrippers” don’t wind up dead – the vast majority don’t. But they also don’t wind up being deemed paragons of virtue either – or at least, anywhere outside of “Hotlanta” they aren’t.

    As I said last week, and it is interesting that my interlocutors yet again have NOT actually addressed my point: Black Women, taken together as a group, are THEE most “empowered” Women in the entire nation, proofed on a range of measures. In the s*xual realm, they have no equal, as WorldStar Hip Hop and YouTube easily attests to, day after day.

    The Big Question at this juncture, is whether Black Women are prepared to deal with the consequences of their choices…because Freedom ain’t Free.

    Somebody’s gotta pay.

    And in some cases, gals like the late Ms. Rabotte, pay the ultimate price.

    Now adjourn your arses…

    O.

    Now adjourn your arses…

    • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com/ Ricky

      *squints and re-reads*

      A post by Obsidian that is on topic O_o

      • Obsidian Files

        @Ricky:
        LOL, my commentaries are often “on topic” – you just have to have the patience to pay attention to what is actually being said, my boy.

        ;)

        O.

    • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

      ~ twerk it up something fierce, ride the pole, and still be Respectable and to still be Respected. Sorry ladies, but Life simply doesn’t work that way.

      may i ask, why not ? why do some people deny respect to women who enjoy expressing their love of chex in public forums ? this is something we were talking about last week at All The Right Questions, but i ended up with more questions than answers ..

      • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

        This is probably a good start.

        The problem is that a lot of women (and a non-trivial number of heterosexual men) look at the $ex worker as competition. There are some people (though thankfully the number is shrinking) that believe that the only way that a person should be able to $exually gratify themselves is by the mandate of exchanged intimacies. If how you want to express that intimacy isn’t what your partner wants, well, sucks to be you! And if that person decides to up the price of that intimacy to get their partner to do what they want, well, either pay up or give up the dream.

        Their fear of losing their power to use someone else’s desires to get their needs met leads to the hatred of $ex work. Of course, they can’t admit that, so they use all sorts of big words about morality and community. The truth is that they want a cartel over someone’s desires, and know that the second they lose that, they lose their social power and will have to actually give of themselves to avail themselves of intimacy.

        • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

          ~ The problem is that a lot of women (and a non-trivial number of heterosexual men) look at the $ex worker as competition.

          just want to ask if i have this correct, are you saying people failing to show respect is an indication of feeling threatened by another person’s existence ? basically to look down on a chex worker is to acknowledge you are insecure about your own comparative chexual worth ?

          • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

            You nailed it!

          • IcePrincess

            Yup!!

        • Obsidian Files

          @Mr. Todd:
          Correct you are – and, as I am sure it will not come as any shock to you, I’ve addressed the matter more in detail here: http://www.justfourguys.com/a-discussion-about-nice-guystm-and-an-object-lesson-in-female-mating-psychology%e2%80%8f/

          It repays close reading…

          O.

      • Obsidian Files

        @Ms. Esa,
        The film, “To Sir, with Love”, answers your query beautifully – I suspect you have seen it. In it, there is a scene where the female students under Mr. Thackery’s charge have been burning a Woman’s personal item in the classroom; an enraged Mr. Thackery (portrayed by Sidney Poitier) tells them that there are certain things a Lady keeps private. He then goes on to warn them that “No Man wants a sl*t for long; only the worst kind will marry one. And competition for Good Men on the outside is rough.”

        For all the talk about “boundaries” Feminists have been yammering about in as many years, it occurs to this Brotha at the least, that the ones most in need of instruction along these lines, are the putative “ladies” themselves…

        Next question?

        O.

        P.S.: Thank you for the Marvin Gaye “American Experience” documentary! It was nice to see PBS give him honor and praise – and interestingly enough, it haas a tie-in into today’s discussion…

    • Epsilonicus

      To sum up Obsidian, the right to choose does not mean you are free from judgment or consequences.

      • Freebird

        and he is right on that one.

      • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

        look at Eps doing the Lawd’s work! lol

        • Epsilonicus

          Lol. I am sure I could use some heavenly pardons lol

  • http://wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

    Objectifying a person isnt just rude and creepy when they’re dead. It’s rude and creepy when they are alive. It’s a shame they need to die for you to see them as human

    • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com/ Ricky

      This really speaks to the dangers of consuming pr0n. You could extend it to all s*x workers actually.

      • The Champ

        This is true. However you try to spin it, p*rn consumption does objectify. There’s no getting around that.

        • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

          $ex objectifies, there pr0n HAS to objectify by definition. Erections and natural vaginal moisture don’t come from intellect.

          • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

            I can’t help it. Hilarious comment! lol

            • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

              It’s simple truth. As much as you respect your husband, you don’t think about how good a father he is or how impressive his work is when it’s time to get that WORK. :)

              • Jay

                Real. Talk.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

            if i treat a person like an object, in any context, i lose a part of my soul.

            • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

              Maybe it’s just me, but when someone I respect offers to objectify themselves to me, it’s something to respect. Putting oneself out to be vulnerable like that is not easy, and I have to give them that props.

              • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                being that people are never objects, in the literal sense, i see objectification is a mind game played by people who are emotionally distancing themselves from what can be a very ambiguous, complex, and profound space.

                • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                  Emotional numbing and certainty FTW! :) But it’s sometimes the only way to travel with some, and if done properly can lead to that ambiguous, complex and profound space anyway.

                  • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                    i hear you. many paths to the same place ~*~

                    • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

                      Don’t I know, don’t I know, DON’T I KNOW! :)

                    • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                      (smile) most things are unknown ~*~

        • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

          Her job was to provide a fantasy…that was her job, but shes not JUST a skin flick actress….her being a p*rn star doesnt strip her right to be respected, and damb sure doesnt make her ineligible to be mourned, missed, memorialized, consumed….I think maybe its uncomfortable for YOU to finally see her as human now that she’s gone, but thats your prollem, not hers…

          • John Shannon

            I really don’t think that’s what Champ is getting at by any means. I’m in the exact same fskw position as he is and I actually had a former Howard classmate that stripped- of course she is human and outside of Class the only other way I saw her was going to Stadium a few times and seeing her dance in my face. People are People in the same way a Drug Dealer, Pedophile, Rapist, Racist, Homophobic is a person, however if their Only Impact in life is of What they WERE remembering them is just strange.

            The Patriarch of Westboro Church died a few weeks ago, that guy and his church are/were the most Vile, Disgusting, Disrespectful and Hateful church full of Christians on the planet, and when he died there were some who were Delighted- I personally was; some were genuinely saddened and IMHO I fskw about that, and others at least “saw” the Human in him despite his Hate and Vile nature…..

            • Rachmo

              What does fskw mean?

              • John Shannon

                Feel Some Kind of Way

                • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                  ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

                • Rachmo

                  Ah got it!

        • Tentpole

          It is only objectifying if you don’t have direct consensual access. Beside, they put it out there knowing that they will be objectified. I think the negative would be if they put it out there and nobody noticed.

      • IcePrincess

        Well said Malik. And that’s exactly what her killer did. My freinds & I were just talking about this the other day. Let me clear it up for those who don’t know- she wasn’t just randomly attacked or snatched up or whatever. It’s looking like she was killed by a john. She had went to dance at private party. She left with one of the partygoers. Most likely lured by the opportunity to make some extra money, if you know what I mean. That was the last person she was seen with alive. The whole thing is just messed up any way you slice it. She had a 3 yr old that she never made it home to :(

  • Aly

    I mean, of course you should mourn Angela however you’d like. Mourning is for the living, after all. But I think she would like to be remembered for her work just as much as the other celebrities you mentioned.

    • The Champ

      “But I think she would like to be remembered for her work just as much as the other celebrities you mentioned.”

      Perhaps that’s how she would like to be remembered. But, assuming you’ve had sexual thoughts about someone before, if this person died, would you still have those thoughts about them?

      • Jay

        She was a desirable woman. She willingly made herself the object of fantasy for millions of men… and women if we’re being honest. She was comfortable with this. That was a part of who she was, why pretend as if it wasn’t. She wasn’t ashamed of her body, why should we be? Its to be appreciated. **Rick James voice** Its a celebration b*tches…Enjoy yourselves.

      • Aly

        I… don’t know for sure. Possibly.

    • b sweet

      Hey Aly!
      How was Saturday? Did you all welcome Jay properly?

      • Aly

        Morning, b! Saturday got off to a rocky start but ended on a high note lol. Met some new folks *waves to @Ice Princess and @Lea Thrace*. But, um, Jay didn’t come… :-(

        • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

          Is the Ice Princess really dripping in ice at all times? LOL I’m just imagining lots of diamonds…

          • Aly

            Haha, no. But she is funny as hayle – had us cracking up all night. Sooo cute, too!

            • Sigma_Since 93

              The word on the street is she had you in tears with her stories.

              • Aly

                Yup, sure did lol

                • Sigma_Since 93

                  You were looking pretty fly too…..:D

                  • Aly

                    Aww, thanks hon!

              • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                I was the main one crying, really. lol. Like actual tears.

          • Lea Thrace

            Ice is heeelarious. And I second Aly’s designation of cute. I’ll even upgrade it to beautiful. As is Aly and dtafakari. The gentlemen weren’t hard on the eyes either. Surrounded by pretty people is a great way to spend a Saturday eve.

            • IcePrincess

              Omg thanks girl! Got me over here blushing :)

            • SuperStrings

              Just glad you all let me sit with you all at the grown ups table.

        • b sweet

          I’m glad it ended on a festive note!
          If you ever have a reason to come to DC, you have a host.

        • Sandpaper

          I had to travel for work otherwise I would have been there.

          • Aly

            Next time.

          • IcePrincess

            Lies! ;)

            • Sandpaper

              Schedule the next one for the 3d or 4th weekend of the month. I’m usually home then. Where can I see pics from the gathering?

        • Lea Thrace

          I had a grand ole time. It was great meeting everyone. Thanks for organizing. And sorry for leading yall on that driving “adventure.” :-D

          • Aly

            LOL, no problem! It was great meeting you, too! We’ll def have to do it again.

          • http://tripsixes.com/about/ Trip

            Hey, adventures are rarely boring though! We finished up strong ;)

        • Jay

          Next time, if only because I’m intrigued by this “proper welcome” I’m supposed to receive.

  • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

    I think its eerie and creepy for anyone twerker or otherwise, even as I keep seeing a trailer for this Paul Walker movie, its….odd. I think its creepy when artists use a Biggie or Aaliyah verse and credit them as featured artists. Maybe that’s just me.

    I cant necessarily agree with the fantasy notion, sounds like sugarcoated way of you saw her as less of a person and now with her tragic death you realize that was an actual woman. Maybe that’s just me also, because if not, i expect this comment thread to go waaaaay left *hides in bomb shelter*

    • The Champ

      I don’t think it’s eerie or creepy for people to still appreciate (and incorporate) a dead artist’s work. But, in the case of someone like Aaliyah, I do think it’s creepy for people to still talk about how sexy she was.

      As far as the second part of your comment, I don’t think it’s sugarcoated at all. Sexual fantasies objectify. At least for me they do. When thinking of someone in that manner, I don’t think of them as a fully-realized person. The thoughts revolve around the things that make them sexually attractive.

      Perhaps I’m alone here — or perhaps I’m just alone in admitting it.

      • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

        ~ When thinking of someone in that manner, I don’t think of them as a fully-realized person.

        may i ask, why not ?

        • The Champ

          Because, when it comes to people I might have those types of thoughts about, I don’t know them that way. When the sexy chick you saw on the train pops up in a fantasy, you’re not thinking about her dreams and hopes and family and personality. You’re thinking about the physical/sexual characteristics that made you pop into your head.

          Again, though. Perhaps we just fantasize differently.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

            ~ When the sexy chick you saw on the train pops up in a fantasy, you’re not thinking about her dreams and hopes and family and personality.

            may i ask, would it be a turn on or a turn off if you did ?

            • The Champ

              I don’t know.

        • Jay

          Sounds like overthinking. The whole hopes and dreams thing is weird to me. I’m not attracted to objects or animals… Only female humans, so ANYONE that I’m attracted to has hopes and dreams. Its so basic that it doesn’t have to be at the forefront of my mind to enjoy a woman’s company, even if its just conversation. You enjoy what you enjoy in the moment, especially if we’re talking sexually.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

            ~ You enjoy what you enjoy in the moment, especially if we’re talking sexually.

            do you see women as fully-realized people ? or is it more of a solipsist approach ?

            • Jay

              First of all I’m not even gonna act like I didn’t have to google solipsism. But I wonder why you would assume or feel the need to ask whether or not I see women as fully realized people.

              • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                ~ But I wonder why you would assume or feel the need to ask whether or not I see women as fully realized people.

                i’m following the thread where Champ stated, “When thinking of someone in that manner, I don’t think of them as a fully-realized person” and you replied to me. my question was about his statement, and i read your reply as a means to answer that question, albeit i couldnt discern if you were answering it, so i repeated myself.

                it’s not an assumption about you in any way, just thought we were still talking about Champ’s observation that he does not think of them as a fully-realized person.

                • Jay

                  I was really asking to further the convo. I didn’t take offense.

                  • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                    cool, thanks. so i was asking Todd elsewhere on this thread if objectification is a natural response for men to chex, and he said it can be. i’m curious if this is a shared mentality among men, or if it is case specific (to the men in certain situations).

                    i guess what i am really curious about is, if objectification of women for chex is a natural state, what is the greater good that it serves (as most biological imperatives are designed to serve the survival of the species). and also, as women who might be ill at ease with the idea of being objectified by men for chex, is there a way to turn what feels dehumanizing (to me) into an empowering approach to relating to men ?

              • ratchet d-Ibaka

                Crying !! That made me genuinely lol @ googling sospeter. I needs to do the same.

      • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

        I think things changed, we know way more about these vixens than 10 years ago. Storn pars have social media, reality shows, etc. Its harder to just objectify people who let you in their daily lives regualrly

      • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

        “When thinking of someone in that manner, I don’t think of them as a fully-realized person.”

        …but why cant someone be wholly human AND chexy? Strippers and adult stars are no different than you, I, our sisters and closest friends. They earn a living the way they saw fit. That doesnt mean its inappropriate to mourn and memorialize them…

        • http://www.twitter.com/IluminatiNYC Todd

          *stands in applause* THANK YOU!

        • Rachmo

          Well you summed up my thoughts for the day. Have a happy Monday all!

  • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

    I….um….I….have no idea what to say. I will agree and say that consuming inordinate amounts of pr0n in mourning feels kinda, off….but I think that death humanizes EVERYONE. I was the biggest Paul Walker stan that I knew. When he passed, it reminded me that he wasnt just my future husband in my mind—he was a regular man, and being reminded about our mortality is what makes mourning so complicated and painful. Paul’s death didnt make him any less of a chex symbol to me (I’m sure the same can be said about Marilyn and James et al). Angela’s legacy, no matter how salacious it might have been, deserves to be remembered/respected…and I’m sure after the initial mourning period has passed, it will be safe to go back to loving what she did.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com/ Tristan

      Marilyn is interesting as i think it works in reverse, when she passed she became this symbol and people don’t even think about who she was as a person

      • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

        Yew have a point there….but all this to say, death is not the killer of chex appeal, so that doesnt justify not mourning this woman or “hoarding” her work

        • The Champ

          “death is not the killer of chex appeal”

          it is to me. when someone dies, i can’t think of them in that way anymore.

          • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

            i made a comment somewhat to this effect, and it got ate up. Is it somewhat that lust and grief/mourning are too disparate emotions to exist at the same time?

            • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

              i just read an essay by a photographer where he was talking about having a threesome after someone close to him died. chex has healing powers, but perhaps it can only be used to heal those of us who are still alive.

              • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                I should probably specify; rereading my comment, I see your point. I think chex can be very life affirming. But I specifically meant lust for the same person for whom you are grieving.

                I just don’t know if excising all the ‘good times’ from my memory of a person will happen.

                • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                  ~ But I specifically meant lust for the same person for whom you are grieving.

                  i knoww. i went left. i think the challenge for a lot of people is the distance between life and death. chex is the ultimate symbol of life, and it appears to my the challenge of feeling chexual vibrations about the dead is about how disconnected many people become when someone dies.

                  that said, i think the process of grief is very profound. a couple of women my age are now widows, and i have seen how many years it takes to process the loss of their beloved. i dont know how the natural cycle of rebirth begins, or if at any point they are willing to open themselves chexually to a man that no longer physically exists. it’s very poignant, and curious, and worthy of contemplation in and of itself ..

                  • http://trulytafakari.com/ dtafakari

                    “it’s very poignant, and curious, and worthy of contemplation in and of itself ..”

                    And I think, outside the discussion of Angela Rabotte’s humanity, that’s the meat of Champ’s post. How do you reconcile the pleasure of chex with the hollow feeling of grief?

                    • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

                      ~ How do you reconcile the pleasure of chex with the hollow feeling of grief?

                      this is powerful. i dont know. i see my girl April Flores struggling to deal with the loss of her husband and partner, which is all the more profound because so much of their connection was based in the public expression of chexuality.

            • John Shannon

              I believe so

            • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

              i think it varies for the person…..I just watched Fast and the Furious and I got all sad and teary eyed cuz fyne azz Paul Walker was posed to give me lil mulatto babies!!! He was the ish then and he will forever be the ish to me *wall slides*

          • Rachmo

            This is asked in a curious voice. Even for older stars like Dorothy Dandridge?

            • The Champ

              Yes.

              • Rachmo

                Oh. I’d watch “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof” in slow mo for hours just for Paul Newman. But to each his own.

          • http://TheNewEve.com/ Bunni

            and once again, thats a personal problem. Some thoughts are meant to stay on the inside, because they can be offensive and trivializing so soon. They havent even buried her yet…even the media waited a bit to openly discuss Whitney’s drug problem in conjunction with her death…lets give respect to the mourning period and intellectualize it maybe AFTER the dust settles??

          • Kema

            I agree… I think everytime I saw the person their death would come to the forefront of my mind. I’d get a case of the sads. I can remember how $exy they were but it would be mixed with the grief of their being gone.

      • http://missrosen.wordpress.com/ esa

        i disagree about Marilyn. there’s so much literature about who she was as a person, celebrated to this very day. Capote wrote Breakfast at Tiffany’s for her. there are all the books about her murder, and of course, tons of photography books that are way less objectifying than what passes for “nudes” these days ..