1. I made the decision to write full-time a little over a year ago. While the transition hasn’t always been smooth, I maintain that it’s the best choice I ever made. The successes we’ve had at VSB collectively and I’ve had personally have been documented, and 2012 is shaping up to be even better.
I’m bringing this up because all of this success has undoubtedly made my already large head even bigger. I’ve become more secure in my voice and my ability to articulate, amuse, and entertain, but with that came an arrogance that leads to days like yesterday.
I think I can (and should be able to) tackle any topic, so when I was browsing through different websites Monday afternoon, looking for something to write for Tuesday, I came across Zerlina’s article about rape, read the comments, and naturally thought “I think I’ll offer a (slightly) dissenting viewpoint. I might upset a couple people, but it’ll be no big deal. They (our readership) know and love me already, so the people who do happen to get upset will forget all about it by 3pm Tuesday afternoon.”
I was wrong.
While I think this conversation needs to be had, I’m not well-versed enough with this topic to even take the chance to articulate the types of thoughts I did yesterday. And, even if I was a rape issues maven, this isn’t the type of topic that someone like me — a snarky, sarcastic, (somewhat) insensitive, and (too) pragmatic asshole — should attempt to tackle by myself.
Perhaps I may get there eventually, but I’m not there yet, and it took a day like yesterday to drive that point home.
Also, it was a poorly crafted post. The title was unnecessarily incendiary and sensationalistic, the premise was drawn from a flawed inference (more on that later), the examples I used to make my point were lazy, insulting, and (very) hurtful, the conclusion was completely tone deaf, and the post-post 11 am edit was an abject fail.
Plus, as Panama stated in a conversation we had yesterday, because of the nature of VSB — we occasionally get “serious,” but most of our topics are meant to be light-hearted and entertaining. also, we usually touch on one topic one day and keep it moving. — this isn’t really the place for the type of discussion this conversation warranted. Honestly, if yesterday’s post didn’t blow up the way it did, today’s topic would have either been a (super-late) NBA preview or something about first date etiquette.
For instance, a glance at the screen while writing this tells me it’s 2:54 pm. In three hours, I’m meeting a couple people to create another “Sh*t___Says” YouTube video. And, lets just say that people who plan to spend entire evenings filming videos titled “Shit Diva Dudes Say To Bougie Black Girls” probably shouldn’t post potentially explosive pieces about rape two days before this silly-ass video debuts.
As much as I spoke about common sense Tuesday, the decision to post a controversial opinion about women and rape didn’t exhibit very much of it.
I do not apologize for possessing the feeling I was attempting to convey. But, I do apologize for being too arrogant to realize how wrong it was for me to attempt to convey it here yesterday. It’s an issue too touchy, too sensitive, too nuanced, and too volatile for a person without a master understanding of the topic to address on a platform as big as VSB’s.
2. Judging from what Google Analytics currently says (it’s 3:08 pm now, btw), yesterday’s post will probably generate 10 to 12,000 unique visitors. A year ago, this would have been one of our highest traffic days ever. Today, it’s maybe the 6th or 7th highest day in the last two weeks.
Both Panama and I (and Liz for that matter) have had some difficulties dealing with this increase in readership and reach; some relatively easy to handle (increased server costs, needing to hire interns, etc), and some that’ll take a bit more brainpower to solve.
One of these “difficult” problems is the fact that increased readership means that there’s a greater chance that someone not at all familiar with you will find your link on Facebook or Twitter, and it’s been a struggle trying to straddle the line between “opinionated and editor-less blogger who can say whatever the hell he wants with no repercussions” and “person who may need to be more cognizant of his words because he’s not just speaking around friends anymore”
With this growth comes an increase in responsibility, and I know I seriously let some people down yesterday. I can’t promise that it won’t happen again. You can’t be successful at this without taking some chances and (occasionally) upsetting people. But, going forward, I do promise to be more conscious of the effect my words can have on people.
With all that being said, although I was genuinely surprised with (and hurt by) the reaction in the comments (and on Twitter), I really don’t want anyone to think that today’s piece and yesterday’s mid-morning edit are me back-tracking or trying to elicit any sympathy. Yes, I feel bad that there are some people who’ve never heard of VSB before and are going to use yesterday as their first (and, likely, only) impression of us, but this is what I signed up for when we decided to build this blog, and if I accept the praise, I have to handle the criticism too. I said it, signed my (real) name to it, and whoever doesn’t like it has a right to call me on it.
3. After re-reading Zerlina’s post for the umpteenth time yesterday, I realized that I definitely reached for the inferences I made. Because I followed the discussion about it on Twitter before actually reading it, I read it with an agenda, looking for a few things that weren’t actually there. I know how shitty it feels to have people make conclusions about something you’ve written before actually reading it, and I apologize to Zerlina for doing that to her.
4. You’ve probably noticed that I haven’t actually said anything about yesterday’s content yet, and I don’t plan to. That ship has sailed. I will say though, that as hard as this may be to believe, I actually did appreciate yesterday’s discussion. Perhaps the best part of VSB is the Very Smart readers, followers, and fans we tend to have, and yesterday was one of those days where I could sit back, read, and learn from them.
Among these things I learned was that there is a major disconnect among some very smart people about issues such as consent and rape/crime prevention and the definitions and proper applications of terms like accountability and responsibility. I don’t know if anything was “solved” yesterday (or if they ever will be), but I don’t think I was the only one surprised by how far apart many of us are when these topics are brought up.
I’m sure yesterday cost us some fans and dissuaded people who would have been fans in the future. That’s unfortunate. For those who did come back today, thank you, and lets continue to entertain (and educate) each other. My eyes and ears feel a little more open today, and I hope yours do too.
—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)
I didn’t think you could do it but you did. An unapologetic apology. Well played sir. Well played.
Only Champ…
an asshole move, if you will. smh.
Liz! WTF? Please explain?
I have none. It is what it is.
I’m really liking this side of you, Miss Burr.
Very much so.
idk bout yall but i respect that. I rather somebody have some balls and lay on the line, then act like a politician and throw rocks and then hide their hands afterwards.
I know I would have felt some kind of way if Champ had completely backtracked from yesterday.
+2 I’m a bigger fan now that he didn’t apologize. This post was awesome. It would’ve been an *sshole move if he just moved on to the next topic like it didn’t happen and left sh*t all awkward lol, but he didn’t. He stood his ground like a man while still addressing the issue(s) and providing intelligent commentary. Well played indeed sir. And no I don’t think we came any closer to bridging that gap/disconnect. You’re right though, this just isn’t the platform. I think a movie with multiple realistic scenarios that draw attention to all the nuances and understandable grey areas could make ALL of our points a lot better than we could by typing on some keyboard. All of the points made were relevant imo, even if they ruffled a lot of people’s feathers and opened up some traumatic wounds
+3
Apologize…..no.
“He stood his ground like a man.”
Hm. I think this is exactly the type of phrase more rape education could address. Men don’t back down or admit when they’re wrong, huh?
God forbid
Definitely.
I don’t understand how this is an unapologetic apology.
“As much as I spoke about common sense Tuesday, the decision to post a controversial opinion about women and rape didn’t exhibit very much of it.”
An apology isn’t about changing your views, it’s about admitting one’s role in a fight/ confrontation. To me, Champ’s apology for basically doing his job (blogging) is very generous. On top of that he admitted to being a hypocrite and to being arrogant.
I dunno, maybe I’m just missing something.
@ Royale Cheese- I agree for the most part, but an apology doesn’t make the statement that “I’m flawed, I don’t always use the best judgement.” It flat out states “I was wrong, I’m asking for your forgiveness.” I’m very relieved that Champ did the former and not the latter. That would’ve been terrible imo. Again I applaud him for not running from the discomfort while also not apologizing for having an opinion
As do I.
Thanks for clearing that up. Wow. I’m thinking, then, that I’ve never apologized a day in my life…
But…wouldn’t changing an opinion due to backlash constitute “regret,” not apology?
that’s what i thought as well, i like this apology… i’m good… apology and regret are too different animals
I can agree that what Champ did was very generous. I PERSONALLY (YES I am a female, YES I have been raped… NO it was not “brutal”, but rape all the same) do not find ANYTHING wrong with what Champ said! I know that things get emotional when you are a victim. I also acknowledge that in being a victim certain things are hard to hear; HOWEVER, I am not a person who believes in being a victim. I do not walk around feeling sorry for myself, nor do I expect others to do the same. Can ALL rapes be prevented?? HELL NO, but what kind of person believes that there is NOTHING a woman can do to prevent a rape?!?!? In my eyes that is either stupidity or emotion talking, and I’ll chose to believe that it’s the latter. I think a lot of the females posting yesterday should seek counseling, and I say that with sincerity. They are still hurt, and it seems as they look at all men and see the monster who hurt them. And THAT IS NOT FAIR! One gentleman said this before (and I totally agree) it’s as if [some of] the women weren’t even listening! It was “I was raped… so I know everything about rape… I had to experience this, you didn’t, so you either agree with what I say (because NOT doing so means that you are not allowing me to play the victim that I want to be) or you shut up because your mind is sick, demented, and dirty. Seriously??? Why do I say that it is playing the victim? I’m glad you asked. It’s playing the victim because you are failing to realize the role A WOMAN (not necessarily YOU) could play in making herself a target. NO that does not make it her FAULT, but I we can all agree that there are VERY FEW situations (by comparison) in which a HUMAN BEING (man or woman) can find themselves in danger, and there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they could HAVE done to decrease the chances (NOT PREVENT FROM HAPPENING… DECREASE THE LIKELIHOOD) of them getting hurt. And I know what I say will be contorted, and people will forget the fact that I say “very few situations” and bring up their situation that they could not prevent and so on and so forth. smdh This is ridiculous! I was up until 1 this morning reading EVERY. LAST. COMMENT. that was posted, and it just baffles me how such INTELLIGENT and ARTICULATE women can just talk and talk and talk….and then literally close their ears (eyes) and hear (read) only what it is they want to hear (read) then pull that ONE PART out… and over analyze it. I thought this was a place for intelligent dialogue… and that cannot happen if one will not GOD DAMN LISTEN!
Forgive my typo’s, I am at work and I have ish to do… I just wanted to get this off my chest and I just couldn’t last night. B/c I wanted to say some things I probably shouldn’t have. But the things that went on on this post yesterday… NOT COOL. And the majority (NOT ALL… watch how this gets taken out of context) of the not- coolness (yeah I said it) was NOT on the part of the men. This situation really helped me to open my eyes to what men say about women and how we operate. And I’m not just talking about the subject matter…. just the fact that it was SUPPOSED TO BE A(N EDUCATED) DISCUSSION!!! *slams laptop closed*
Sounds like you are the one who could benefit from counseling. As a survivor, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Really though? I read both yesterday and today’s post and while I’m not gonna go into how I feel about it, I will say I was REALLY disheartened by some of the comments. Telling someone they should be ashamed of their self because their opinion differs from yours? I guess…..
Thank you, Bey. You were good to read through all of the comments from the previous post. I had to stop reading halfway through because I couldn’t take it anymore. I just was not comprehending where all of the anger was coming from. And not just anger, but absolute VENOM toward anyone who offered a different outlook or a new example to the discussion.
And the commentor who replied to comments by cutting and pasting a comment but changing up a few words to use racial rofiling as the example…?! o_0 That person needs to learn how to converse! He/She seemed like a smart-a$$ who had no real response other than to be a butt.
I completely got/agreed with Champ’s post…wasn’t angry about anything in it.
I agree 1000% with everything your comment read…EH-VER-E-THANG!
” I was up until 1 this morning reading EVERY. LAST. COMMENT. that was posted, and it just baffles me how such INTELLIGENT and ARTICULATE women can just talk and talk and talk….and then literally close their ears (eyes) and hear (read) only what it is they want to hear (read) then pull that ONE PART out… and over analyze it. I thought this was a place for intelligent dialogue… and that cannot happen if one will not GOD DAMN LISTEN!”
(starts sllow clap)
I know that for the purposes of the post the blogger is referring to men and women in terms of rape, but let’s not forget that rape is universal. The act of rape is not one that discriminates. The idea is that women should also be taught how to prevent rape by way of precautions is understood by me but what advice do you have for children? The mentally and physically disadvantaged? Boys? Men? The elderly? Exactly. When trying to act like you have women’s best interest in mind, please do not forget the real issue at hand. Rape is a psychological cripple, crime and major issue that people in our world are unfortunately experiencing; if a rapist can’t get to the woman or man drinking way too much in the club, the rapist will get to the young woman or man that the rapist has known throughout school. Rapists are rapists regardless of what you wear, drink, or look like. For that reason and that reason alone we should invest all the time and energy in the world nurturing and teaching how NOT to rape. Sit the fuck down if you think otherwise.
You’re making this worse by stating something that doesn’t need to be said. He offended enough people yesterday that even Liz and Panama seemed to be iritated. Let’s move on.
He effectively used the same technique as Awkward Black Girl in their unapologetic apology…good job!
I purposely avoided VSB yesterday because I agree that this is not the forum in which to discuss that topic with the seriousness that it deserves. Also, even without having read it, I fully expected the author (I didn’t know who it was at the time) to deliver an Issa Rae style apology because I remember Champ e-fellating her when she did it. It would be a waste of emotion to be disappointed in Champ for his arrogance/irresponsibility, but I am not surprised in the least as a great many very smart people have undertaken similar conversations to similar backlash. I recognize that I am more sensitive about the subject than the average reader and so I protected my sanity by choosing not to consume the article. I’m not judging anyone else for failing to do the same, but IJS.
VSB has not lost me as a fan, but this whole situation did remind me that this is only a blog. The articles are only thoughts and opinions. The writers are only some guys with server space and something to say. And that’s ok. Henceforth, I will do better to look at VSB for what it is, and nothing more.
e-cunnilling-ing perhaps?
(point taken)
lol. I considered it. I really did.
@ ThisIshRightHereNinja- That was very mature and intelligent of you to just stay away for your own sanity. Most of us don’t have that type of discipline and/or discernment. I agree with you totally about seeing this site for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. I’ve read ish that has been written here (especially by Champ) and been offended, felt unfairly ridiculed, and even flat out disrespected by someone who was ignorant about what he was referencing all in the name of clever humor and it sux. I’m sure I’m not the only one. A topic like rape though…yeah, whole nother level of pissivity is in order. So again, I get it. We all do have a tendency to put the site and the authors on a moral and intellectual pedastal because we see so many good qualities in them and see how far reaching this site is. It has soooo much more power than Champ, Liz, and P probably realize, which can lead to a lot of letdowns from those of us who wanna see it reach its full potential and actually educate (taking EVERYTHING into account) while entertaining us. But we all gotta remember that not only are they humans who won’t feel the same way as us on every issue, but that this site is just a blog where ppl tell you their initial thoughts and issues with certain topics. That’s all. So yeah, great points you made
Feeling bad about a major… not the same thing as feeling bad about rape. Not even close, dude.
@SweetSass- Right cause that’s exactly what I said/implied. Ok. Good job Sherlock. And way to address EVERYTHING I said too. You sure know how to have a productive conversation.
Aww Uncle Champ… *e-hug*
I appreciate days like yesterday here. Yes, we (I say WE as if I’m a piece of the movement…) can do diva dude days and fun but I enjoy deeper conversations. Yesterday may have hurt some readers, but just like friends, we all have differing opinions and we all still come back.
Can we have deep conversations like that more often? Maybe some not so inflammatory, but still…?
+1
are we going to come back?
or are some of us going to walk on eggshells?
@King Jordan- I’m gonna walk on eggshells about sensitive topics, because I don’t appreciate being accused of being a rapist while simultaneously having my perfectly valid (albeit uncomfortable) points be ignored or ridiculed because they aren’t in accordance with other people’s preset theories and experiences. I’ve also vowed that I’m not gonna really speak (besides playful jokes that don’t contribute much to the conversation) about any issue that involves men and women interacting together unless it’s all positive and makes women look more or less flawless. I’m not joking either, what’s the point of trying to offer a different perspective in an environment like this? Clearly I don’t know sh*t, don’t know why I ever thought otherwise smh
Well now that you know better we expect you to do better. Don’t disappoint us. Or else.
lol
well i was taking notes yesterday, so i’m almost ready to understand that i’m a potential monster…i’ve practiced running to the other side of the street when i see a BW coming…just gotta figure out what to do in the subways…
oh wait, am i allowed to be tounge-in-cheek?
Did you ask if you could put your tongue there first? No you did not. You just did it and then asked. For shame.
TAC, you slay me. Every. Time. <3
Running away from BW might constitute self hatred and b*tch-made ninja behavior. Can’t do that either.
*Removing tongue from cheek* But on the real. Please don’t fall prey to reactionism. Most of the responses yesterday came directly from hurt. Not to dismiss the hurt, but when someone starts venting instead of directly addressing a statement, they are just not ready to discuss it. That’s all that means. It shoudn’t lead you to become cynical.
@ TAC- I will do better from now on, don’t know what came over me lol
@King Jordan- Did you not learn ANY D*MN thing?! Watch where you put that d*mn tongue without permission! lol, and btw didn’t you use to go by another name? You remind me of a certain super hero I use to know on these e-streets
@My new crush Royale Cheese- I was cynical before yesterday’s post, people’s failure to genuinely try to see where I was coming from just added to that. I understand they were responding out of hurt, and I really only wanted to show them that the term rape gets overused almost as much as the term “racism”. I thought I did a good job of showing that I understand exactly what they were saying about victim blaming and the fact that rape is virtually impossible to prevent in most cases. I still maintain that there are a few situations where it can be prevented, but I didn’t want that to take away from the fact that the majority of the time it can’t.
It’s also pretty funny how one of the commenters kept referencing racism and white privilege because having discussions with women about these types of things and having my perfectly valid points get ignored or discredited on the REGULAR by several women has completely changed the way I feel about racism, prejudice, and white privilege. I side with white folks waaaaay more than I used to. It’s like they can’t win if they make a non “yes man” comment. I definitely have a newfound respect for the ones willing to take it there and be made out a villain. I’ve become a better person after being forced into the villain role for simply being honest, so I totally get it now. I feel you Billy lol
gadzooks, just me has figured me out!
*shoots webbing and swings away*
your friendly neighboorhood….nice guy?
^___^ IT IS YOU! *e-squeeze* hiiiii! lol
(fat albert voice) hey hey heyy (/fat albert voice)
yeah, i had to change names, when i saw there was another Peter Parker…didn’t want to get folks too confuzzled
@King Jordan- haha, yeah I just knew it had to be you. We have a lot of similar views and your style of humor is always right on time. It just sounded too much like you to be a new commenter lol, but yeah I did peep that there was another Peter Parker and it had me hella confused lol. Congrats on the name change Your Majesty lol. I think Imma come back as Metta World Peace lol
“I side with white folks waaaaay more than I used to. It’s like they can’t win if they make a non “yes man” comment.”
*Daps* Exactly. In the victim/ oppressor dynamic, ironically it’s the “oppressor” we need to get engaged to completely solve the problem. Convincing any person who might be identified as the “oppressor” that they are inherently evil and useless is not how we win.
So when are you going to the KKK rally to ‘dialogue’?
” So when are you going to the KKK rally to ‘dialogue’?”
Soon as I get that invite! Especially if I have any more “conversations” with negroes who only intend to talk at me and tell me how wrong I am when they didn’t actually even hear nothing I said except the part that they could dissect and infer something that would support their argument. Can’t wait to get started cross burning wit Jethro and nem!
Royale, did you not see the part where he says ‘rape’ gets ‘overused’…. he is literally deny that there is a problem. PLEASE tell me how you are at all educating him about the issue. You are high fiving him for deny YOUR experience as ‘rape-rape’… Stockholm syndrome?
Oh, and what’s this about Royale being your “new” crush? Hm?
…I guess she cute or whatever.
*sideeye*
Don’t worry, we didn’t ALL forget about you ma’am.
@ The Anti-Cool- You never made a move….lol, nah but I’m one of the evolved VSBs (like Yoles) I’m poly-amorous. There’s enough of me to go around (no Newt G.) lol
I missed the explosion yesterday. But I read comments today, and yours in particular because you seemed like the only man giving honest answers. I’d like to help you understand why you got such a crazy response. The comment you made on a girl being drunk ( not passed out) and flirty with someone also drunk and going to someone’s room and giving mixed signals was the slippery slope of victim blaming. That came too close to saying she asked for it. You proved what someone said about levels of rape victims and those who get sympathy and who don’t. Most women feel this is a man’s mindset, because it’s true you can’t know whats really happened. This may seem unfair but in my opinion in their every day lives women do ALL these things to not be asking for it or be vulnerable to rape. This is the ONE moment where a man has to be more responsible, because in the end if he’s also drunk that’s not an excuse it’s evidence he was out of control. It’s a phrase women hear all the time, “don’t put yourself in that situation” because int eh end HE won’t be seen as the victim. I don’t think you’re a potential monster or a rapist on the verge, that was obviously an emotional response from other people. I truly respect your honesty.
@Manny- Thanks for actually responding to me in a way that actually addressed what I said while still disagreeing. I knew it was possible, and you aren’t the first one on this board to do so, but you are one of the few. I definitely get that that’s a slippery slope, but do you get how it’s a slippery slope for people to say “not only is it never a woman’s fault for getting sexually assaulted, but nothing she says, wears, does, implies, touches etc; effects an intoxicated man who has no history of sexual assault when in a compromising situation.” No one in their right mind would argue that a woman in a turtleneck and baggy clothing will get the same amount of lascivious attention from men as a woman of the same stature in booty shorts showing half of her cleavage. This fact alone should prove that you can’t completely dismiss the effect of how you present yourself. And this isn’t a fair argument because no statistics could be kept about how many women flat out didn’t get noticed because they weren’t dressed provocatively. We as men get told all the time that if we wanna be perceived a certain way we should/shouldn’t dress certain ways. And you know what else? Let me switch gears and show you how this same concept gets applied to many different scenarios.
1) My friend and I went to the D.R. a few years ago. On the flight we checked our bags because we had to due to the size. When we got to the island we discovered that cameras, Kangol hats, clothes, and cologne has been stolen. We reported it to the airport (pointless because their employees did it and weren’t gonna snitch or even admit that it could’ve been them). They told us that we should’ve kept items like that in our possession so that wouldn’t happen…Well thanks for telling me now Sherlock, that doesn’t compensate me for my losses. We reported it but had to take that loss as well as a pointless tip for how to avoid it in the future. Only pointless because now that it already happened it’s obvious. However it was still good advice and if they were to tell it to someone who hadn’t traveled internationally it might actually prevent them from being the victim of theft.
I won’t tell a million more stories involving so called victim blaming because all of you get the point, it’s human nature whether it’s someone who cares about you or not, to give advice even if you don’t want the advice or don’t think the advice is helpful (even if you think it’s insulting), but it usually does NOT equate to victim blaming. This post is getting long so I’ll finish it on another post….cont.
I’m gonna give you two scenarios involving alcohol to prove a point.
1) Around Halloween we were throwing a party at my college campus (sophomore year) and some locals came through to join in the festivities. I went to school with a looot of 2520s who lived most of their lives in a bubble of naiveté. This fact combined with the alcohol in their systems and the occasion of Halloween led them to make a regrettable decision. They decided that they were gonna jump out of the bushes (in their gorilla constumes) and scare ppl as they walked by. They had scared some lil white girls so I guess they got more and more bold and decided to scare a group of African-American gents walking by (the locals I mentioned earlier)…well, that led to them promptly getting beaten to a pulp (“This n*gga tried to run up on us cuz”). After they were beaten unconscious the gents felt it was appropriate to “get his pockets cuz” and be out with no trace.
Now the victims in this situation were under the influence of alcohol (not so good for decision making) and made a bad judgement call. Is it their fault that they picked the wrong individuals to scare? Did they deserve to be beaten (talk about not owning your body) senseless because the other individuals were not in a good mood? Absolutely not, but did we all laugh and feel as though they had it coming? Yep, women included. No one would laugh at a rape, but the immediate focus when something effed up happens is to ALWAYS look for a way for others that DID NOT get harmed to avoid it in the future. It’s human nature, but I guess we should stop saying it aloud when it comes to something like this, because as we’ve discussed ad nauseum MOST rapes CANNOT be avoided and don’t even get committed by strangers lurking in the bushes.
I won’t even tell the other story, I think you get what I’m saying. The other one also involves a guy getting beat to a pulp after making some bad decisions while intoxicated and becoming the laughingstock of the club. I’m not saying this is right, but when you over-indulge in alcohol you ALWAYS put yourself at some kind of risk, and when you have no one around to take you out of certain situations you WILL BE VULNERABLE no matter what sex you are. We ALL know multiple stories about guys getting their *sses whipped behind liquid courage, and none of us feel that much sympathy for them. However when it comes to women and rape, obvious facts get misinterpreted for victim blaming, and that’s not gonna allow this conversation to progress the way it should. Someone said something to the effect of “I should be able to drink until I pass out or black out” and in an ideal world you should. However in this world you better be prepared to deal with the consequences of what not remembering what you did or where you were entails. Some drunk bamma might not have even realized how drunk you were (especially when he was also drunk) and might have mistaken a yes that you didn’t mean for a yes that you did mean…You don’t give a prosecutor too much of a fighting chance when you get wrecklessly drunk. It’s effed up, but it’s true. Go ahead and keep firing shots at the messenger though, I don’t even mind anymore.
It’s possible to for people to see where you’re coming from…and still disagree.
Right.
@Kiesh- I agree. It definitely is, but most (certainly not all) of the commenters who were in disagreement with me yesterday didn’t demonstrate that they saw where I was coming from. They began ranting about sh*t I didn’t say, nor did I imply. They inferred most of it, and began their rebuttals with a 2+2=22 premise. No intelligent conversation can progress when people do that. I don’t want them to agree, I don’t expect them to agree, but I do expect them to respond to what I actually said and stop assuming so much based on what other men they know have said…ya know?
Based on what facts do you think rape gets overused?
I’m going to go ahead and be the devil (I can deal with that) and say it. But SweetSaas, honey you need help! I say that with as much love as I can possibly convey over the internet. It is painfully obvious that you are hurt and damaged by what happened to you. And I can only hope and pray that your defensiveness and lack of listening to comprehend (NOT TO RESPOND) only take precedence when rape is the topic. If not, the issue is far bigger than anything we could ever address on this website. And that’s all I have. You’re in my prayers. No pun, no sarcasm, no shade.
What-the-hell-are-you-talking-about?
He said in the post I was responding to… ‘rape gets overused’.
I’m asking him.. where does he get that idea.
This has nothing to do with me being ‘emotional’ or ‘hurt’… I’m asking him a straight question based on what he said. Factual. Ok.
Stop trying to gaslight or armchair psychoanalyze.
I won’t get into the long answer… so the short answer to the question what-the-hell am I talking about… is: YOU. In looking at the post I see that my comment was inadvertently placed under THE ONE comment you made that wasn’t off the deep end. So forgive me for my placement. But my comment still stands. PLEASE don’t act like you don’t see what you’ve been saying for the past few days. I COULD sit here and go tit for tat with you, like you seem SO ANXIOUS to do with EVERYONE who doesn’t co-sign on your bs… but why?
-girl bye.
“Not to dismiss the hurt, but when someone starts venting instea of directly addressing the statement, they are just not ready to discuss it.”
+10
This basically sums it all up to me. VSB was just not the platform for opinions from Champ OR venting, on this topic. Not enough context on Champs end to address it with the level of sensitivity needed and too much context on the other end to attempt to respond to the topic at hand without disgust toward said insensitivity taking over.
Exactly.
I completely disagree Royale, just because many women spoke from a place of sincere hurt, and vented, doesn’t disqualify them from the conversation and being “ready” to talk about it. There is no such thing as a completely objective and neutral participant in a conversation. We all bring our experiences, hurts, feelings, and thoughts into the discussion. A victim of rape who is emotional talking about the subject of rape, should not be barred from the discussion because she can’t be “objective”. I was just reading the posts casually, but coming across this comment made me marvel at the level of ignorance and quite honestly, absolute stupidity folks are displaying. Yes I called your opinion absolutely stupid. No I haven’t been raped, nor thankfully has anyone close to me, so I guess by your qualifications I am stable enough to converse with you. And 15 seconds later, I still think your opinion is absolutely stupid. Just your opinion though, not you, try to respond objectively.
@Justmetheguy,
Someone has to do it. Why not you?
*plays violin*
now you know how we feel when you post, o psuedo cougarish one
#ViolinConcertoNo.3inB****minor
lol
It’s not a matter of “flawless ness” btw–men are not the only ones who rape, your brilliant blogger whom you are championing for should have elaborated some more on that. And yes, I understand that he was responding to an article, but if that was he rebuttal then someone needs to go back to the old drawing board. Defending the actions of rapists (which in essence is what he’s doing and please do not say he’s not because he very clearly is; if you didn’t drink so much, then you’d have your wits about you. . . Because rapists MOSTLY go after sloppy drunks. Right.) is never an easy task.
I for one have not gone anywhere to have to come back. And I’d appreciate it if my VSBs didn’t walk on eggshells as that’s not been what we are about nor what we represent. What’s the point of having an open discussion if you aren’t going to be open?
I know it sucks to get painted with the broad brush of “man = monster” but understand it wasn’t directed at you, moreso the men in the past who may or may not share your opinions, and coming from a place of hurt. Don’t discredit the hurt, but don’t take any of it as a personal affront to you guys.
“What’s the point of having an open discussion if you aren’t going to be open?”
So other people can ‘talk’, and ‘discuss’.
dialogue isn’t always going to be agreeable. but dialogue requires multiple opinions/people talking. certain topics should not be dialogues, and to be somewhat honest, yesterday’s topic show’d that. and i get that.
*nods head in agreement*
Thank you.
Hmm…I think I’ve offended enough people with my comments on yesterday’s post so…Just hmm.
Don’t stop now, double down!!
j/k
LOL, you scared now?
Who? Me? I ain’t neva scurred.
Just trying to be sensitive toward those still reeling from yesterday. No worries. I’ll be over it shortly.
I had another response, but I’ll go with this one. The offensive thing was this: There is a difference in “rape prevention” and “risk reduction.” EVERYONE can participate in risk reduction in regard to preventing any type of crime being committed against them. However, rape is the ONLY crime I know of where we ask the victims of it to shoulder the burden of prevention and risk reduction. Victims of robbery aren’t told to “stop dressing rich or stop living in nice homes;” victims of identity theft aren’t told “stop being who you are or stop having good credit.”
But somehow, we as a society have come to think that we can tell women, “follow this list of rules and you’ll be okay,” and then feel completely justified in not educating men in any way about rape culture and rape, what constitutes rape and what they can do to help stop it.
And when someone addresses educating boys/young me about how to help reduce the environment that fosters rape, we get that sort of tongue-n-cheeck response that Champ posted yesterday. We get someone had no intention of taking it seriously, but asking that we take him seriously.
I’m not exaggerating when I say that I was offended at best and it made me honestly think that the only time I’ll read the blog or comment is when PJ is writing. That might seem extreme, but those were definitely my thoughts.
***slow claps and stands up in admiration***
co-sign on this 100%
“I’m not exaggerating when I say that I was offended at best and it made me honestly think that the only time I’ll read the blog or comment is when PJ is writing. That might seem extreme, but those were definitely my thoughts.”
Not extreme at all. I honestly was contemplating not returning to this website.
Typically I only read when Panama is posting (I think he’s a better writer for plenty of reasons.) Tried something new this week I won’t be trying again.
Who is going to educate these young men?
grown people who can talk about sensitive topics without getting all offended and accusing folks of being potential rapists…….*ducks back into shadows*
But here u are, commenting. Lmao ijs….
” And when someone addresses educating boys/young me about how to help reduce the environment that fosters rape, we get that sort of tongue-n-cheeck response that Champ posted yesterday. We get someone had no intention of taking it seriously, but asking that we take him seriously.”
This is understandable, but I’m pretty sure Champ and every other male commenter prefaced their SLIGHTLY dissenting views by saying that we should DEFINITELY educate boys about how horrible and pathetic of an act it is and how to avoid being in a situation where anyone could even think you raped anyone. The issue was when that part of our comments got COMPLETELY IGNORED because it didn’t allow people free rein to go ALL THE WAY IN on us since they can’t take their anger out on actual rapists. That’s the type of ish that makes ninjas say “well f*ck it, yall don’t want my contribution then handle that ish on your own then.” I still have issues with some of what yall were suggesting about consent and changing minds etc; but I didn’t lose any respect for any of the regulars that I see commenting on this site, not sure everyone here can say that…not that I really give that much of a sh*t how a bunch of random strangers feel about me, but it really is discouraging to see how hard a conversation can be to have, especially when the evidence of what I ACTUALLY SAID is sitting right there in people’s faces but they still choose to twist my words and infer some bs that isn’t actually there. Again, didn’t lose no respect for anybody that I respected beforehand, but I re-learned a valuable lesson, certain topics should be avoided unless you’re ready to just nod your head and pretend to agree with everything the other party is asserting. Sux that it is that way, but it is…
I don’t, because nobody has told me who is going to educate these boys?
The same folks who educate girls on what to do to lessen her risk of becoming a victim. Parents, concerned/enlightened family member, clergy, schools, non profits, etc.
You can help educate them along with the people Mo-vss mentioned. Along with coaches and anyone else young men come in contact with.
I think you and I agree that telling people to teach kids, no mean no, and stop means stop, kind of shows you how dumb and hopeless we think these kids are. The issue of rape has been handled by people too caught up in the horror of the act to come up with anything solid to fight it: why else would come up with the simple idea that education is the key? Aren’t these the same people who tell us education or therapy is the key to everything. You’re fat – you need education. You’re violent – you need education. You like having sex outside of marriage – You need therapy. You like white women – you need therapy and a history lesson smh.
Education is a simple answer that won’t lead to significant results because people aren’t raping because they’re ignorant. And the whole idea/ concept (a feminist concept) of rape culture is based on the false premise that men collectively are programmed to either rape, or act in a certain when they hear about rape that makes them unsympathetic to victims. So if that’s the case, what’s the point of telling men to educate boys, when they’re already plugged in and are veterans in the system otherwise known as Rape Culture? You can’t lead someone out of the matrix if you haven’t been unplugged.
So your solution is don’t do anything and ignore the problem?
“So your solution is don’t do anything about the problem?” Can’t speak for him, but it sounds like his solution is at least be honest about the ENTIRE nature of rape and sexual assault and don’t waste money and resources on pointless endeavors. Also be consistent with your assertions. You can’t assert that men are PROGRAMMED to be either rapists, potential rapists, rape apologists, participants in rape culture, insensitive to rape victims, and pretty much just useless human beings as it pertains to stopping rape, then ask men to pass on this dangerous mindframe to boys. What kind of sense does that make? And what solution have you come up with besides berate any man that speaks on the issue and suggest that we “educate” future rapists that it’s wrong? And that’s a serious question.
“That’s the type of ish that makes ninjas say “well f*ck it, yall don’t want my contribution then handle that ish on your own then.” ”
This. When hurt people come into the convo with guns blazing, this is the consequence. And you know what? They don’t even care. Their response is “Well f*** you, then. You probably a rapin @$$ rapist anyway!”
“You probably a rapin @$$ rapist anyway!””
#hideyawife #hideyakids #rapineverybody
Too soon, right?
*imports himself to the doghouse*
This made me laugh when I didn’t want to…I loathe thee
bout #hideyokids lmao
When I say that made me chuckle and now I’m shamed…
You definitely nailed it Royale. I understand the education part, but when you know you’re way too traumatized to discuss something rationally, the smart thing to do is fall back and get your head together.
I’m not going to suggest that anyone fall back, per se. Venting is part of the healing process. It’s just that people are confusing “talking at” and tit-for-tat with “discussion” and “problem solving.”
my question to you is why wouldn’t people come into this convo with guns blazing? its contentious from the title on down. you’re almost belittling anybody for having the gumption to be personally connected. sure we should all be able to discuss using focused rational thought, but since when has that ever been the case?
if i wrote a post titled, “you are a b*tch and here’s why…” and i write the ABSOLUTE most logically sound argument known to mankind, you’re telling me that you wouldn’t still take umbrage and feel personally attacked? my point is…as writers we’re all trying to connect…you can’t get mad when you hit a homerun. lol.
THANK YOU
Amen, finally some sense. Thanks P. I was literally ready to punch a hole through the wall will frustration.
THIS!!!
i dont understand why people believe that emotions can be shut on and off.
we all react differently to different things.
when champ posted 5 reasons NBA > NFL – my reaction was long and lengthy (as per usual) because well.. i vehemently disagreed. and that was on something very trivial.
a topic about something that is very personal – the violation of one’s body is supposed to just have us (who may have been there before) react with just a yawn? GTEFOH. it’s a personal topic, it’s bound to get personal. people are going to take it personally. it’s human nature.
im guessing based on today’s post that many of the comments yesterday were emotional and therefore are automatically being discounted as having any sort of validity. to which i also disagree with. you may not agree or understand, but every person’s feelings are valid and real. it’s insulting to dismiss them if they come from a place that you’ve never been.
Right on, P.
~~~”my question to you is why wouldn’t people come into this convo with guns blazing?”
Well, of course they do. But then they try to pass venting off as a “discussion” and accuse everyone who does not emote like they do of being “insensitive.” Miss me with that.
~~~”you’re almost belittling anybody for having the gumption to be personally connected.”
Yes, it looks like that’s how they are taking it.
” Well, of course they do. But then they try to pass venting off as a “discussion” and accuse everyone who does not emote like they do of being “insensitive.” Miss me with that.”
Yup, and if you’re a guy that also accuse you of BEING a rapist and being a potential KKK recruit (wish I was makin this up, it would be very creative of me) smh
The KKK analogy actually presents a nice opportunity for extended analogy. Going to a KKK rally and trying to fix racism by telling them how wrong and stupid they are will not work. Telling potential white allies how their thought processes actually mirror the KKK certainly doesn’t work either. I’d rather help white allies figure out how their actions can be modified for the benefit of everyone.
Cheese, you claim to be saying that you’re advancing some dialogue or taking some different method of teaching men about rape or changing minds of ‘oppressors’ but….
I didn’t see you do annnnny of the that in the posts yesterday. You didn’t gently challenge some assertions from men that it’s ok to have sex with someone or coerce them if they give off mixed messages. You just nodded in assent. You did no edumacation.. you just agreed and defended no matter what toxic things they were spewing. Take Jevioso’s whole crazy argument that feminism breeds rape. You didn’t say shit about that… you didn’t point out how that is not true and a harmful statement. You did nothing.
What you did do is challenge those of us who responded to the initial post with our rape stories and suggested we were being ‘overly senstive’ or ‘lashing out’ or not being logical.
Her entire attitude has been of utter disdain for other people’s feelings. It offended me more by the way she was reacting to others comments than by what Champ wrote. It was sort of a “i am higher and better than this” mentality. Let it go.
I accept that emoting is part of the healing process. I think the writers are actually above a lot of the vindictive posts they had written. I don’t think I’m better than anybody.
Just for the record, I’m ignoring all of your needling, bullying, and nagging responses from here on out. I am not convinced that you are an ally, that you want to solve any problems, nor that you care about my past trauma or anyone else’s for that matter. I think you are more hell-bent on exploiting sexual abuse as a platform to make yourself look holy.
I don’t care how you feel about that. You probably can’t say much worse about me now than the petty vitriol you were vomiting in the previous thread.
Just f*** off, for real.
You know what. That assessment of you that I wrote is dead wrong. I’m sorry. Not only is it false, I should not have written it. When you dismissed my concern and my approach to the issue as, essentially, selling out, you intended to hurt me, and it did. Hurt people hurt people. Honestly, I agree with what the Anticool has pointed out before. You are hurt. You are motivated to prove that rape prevention does not exist, never works, and never will work. No matter how much I support the fact that no victim deserves being assaulted, as long as I also say “preventative measures are worth taking” you will attack that notion. For what it’s worth, please believe that regardless of what happened to you, you are not powerless, Sass. I’m not trying to one-up you or show off. I’m going to keep saying this every time you inadvertently start to spread your hurt to me.
” You are hurt. You are motivated to prove that rape prevention does not exist, never works, and never will work. No matter how much I support the fact that no victim deserves being assaulted, as long as I also say “preventative measures are worth taking” you will attack that notion.”
Perfect summary. That’s why I haven’t been responding to her. It’s futile at this point. I’m ready for the next post…
Sell out. Hmm. Your words not mine.
But if the shoe fits. You must wear it.
I’ll address you because I read what you wrote yesterday. My dissent was not and has not been with what you and other male posters think. It’s with the blogger. His callous attempt at broaching a subject that calls for care is infuriating.
I’m a writer. I know good and damn well when I write a piece what the tone is or very well may be construed as. If I thought Champ was a subpar writer, I’d not have this sentiment. He formerly had my respect because I admired his style of writing. However, as a writer you broach subjects of different tone with a one that is appropriate. His tone on this subject was not appropriate. The discourse that followed after was a DIRECT result of the way he CHOSE to approach the subject.
To be clear. I’m not a hysteric or raged filled victim. I’m very level headed and clear on a great many things. This being one of them. I agree that risk reduction is something we all can benefit from. I do NOT agree that rape prevention is something that is majority pinned on the common sense (or lack thereof) of the victim. I have no problem arguing that. Nor do I have a problem with someone who feels/thinks differently. The problem I had and still have is the insensitive, inflammatory tone Champ put forth.
There’s a way to inspire conversation and discussion and there’s a way to light in on fire. Champ chose the latter.
@Mo-Vss- Well damn. I didn’t know that’s what your point was. If that’s what you were saying I’d be an idiot to argue with you, because I 100% agree with all that. He should’ve known better than that. He could’ve even approached the subject by asking some real questions about what constitutes consent. He could’ve and should’ve challenged our perceptions while asking us for our opinions, but he took the same tone he normally takes with all topics (I was borderline annoyed when he took that topic about uninformed teenagers picking majors for what he considered to be the wrong reasons, but I let it slide for a number of reasons, so I TOTALLY get why his tone would constitute such an explosive reaction.) Very well said though, I get it (your point of view at least) now and I actually agree 100% instead of 95 this time
No worries. I have no problem with commenters who may not “get it.” I’ve been around long enough to know sometime people agree and sometimes they don’t. Such is life. We’re here to have discourse…no matter now belabored that discourse may be.
I have a problem with what I stated before. Thanks for taking the time to read and comment about what I said.
I continue to enjoy your thoughtful responses gurl
yeah, i lub you too boo.
Thanks y’all
i love thee mo for so many reasons. *hugs*
Thanks lady
Regardless of my opinion about Champs post, I’d like to thank you for what you said. I agree %100 with what you said and not only that but I’m appreciate of how you chose to say it. I can’t believe that there are so many people on this thread that seem to not be able to disagree without being respectful.
I’m not saying be emotionless, aloof or whatever. I’m simply saying I don’t think the name calling and complete disrespect is at all necessary. Not only is it ridiculous but your chances of having someone legitimately hear you out for what you’re saying greatly decrease because all they see is the disrespect and then people’s feelings get hurt (more) and they get angry(er).
THIS! I understand how emotionally-charged this topic is (as a woman), but I can only imagine how difficult this jagged pill would be to swallow if I were actually a survivor of such brutality. Clearly if employing a few elementary preventative techniques were a workable solution, these assaults would not be so prevalent.
That being said, it was also disheartening to see so many (seemingly well-intentioned) male commenters attacked for expressing their views. IMO, at the root of the problem is the adversarial nature of male-female relations: men are taught to behave as predators and women are taught to behave as prey. In this sense, there is probably a lot of un-learning and re-education that needs to be done for men, but how can this be accomplished if we cannot discuss these issues and ferret out the sticky areas? Say a guy truly is confused about issues of consent–rather than label him a rapist, we need to be able to initiate a dialogue in a collaborative construct (rather than propagating the adversarial issues that fuel the problem). I have to believe that there are more men out there who are truly willing and eager to work on these issues than there are incorrigible lowlifes.
Due to the divisive nature of this issue (attacker v. victim), it is natural to view the male opinion with skepticism and anger. But we need men to be a part of the discussion and thereby a part of the solution because, after all, the key to the only true preventative measure lies in the programming of the male consciousness.
Yes.
Agreed
Thank you.
Want some cheese with your whine?
“…I’m pretty sure Champ and every other male commenter prefaced their SLIGHTLY dissenting views by saying that we should DEFINITELY educate boys about how horrible and pathetic of an act it is and how to avoid being in a situation where anyone could even think you raped anyone.”
Except they didn’t. You and a few others may have. But “every”? Nah.
“I still have issues with some of what yall were suggesting about consent and changing minds etc”
I’m really curious about what your issues are; the discussions about that are part of comprehensive rape education. The trollish person that suggested that “no means no” is the extent of rape education was wrong, that type of “education” is just as much bull as telling someone “just say no” or “don’t see color.” Just because someone did it wrong in the past doesn’t mean it can’t be done correctly now. We are VSP and we can do better.
Exactly.
This dude plugged his web project, apologized for the timing (not the sentiment) of his post, and then talked about how hurt he was. Ok then.
“However, rape is the ONLY crime I know of where we ask the victims of it to shoulder the burden of prevention and risk reduction. Victims of robbery aren’t told to “stop dressing rich or stop living in nice homes;” victims of identity theft aren’t told “stop being who you are or stop having good credit.”
EVERY crime we ask the victimes to shoulder the burden of prevention and risk reduction. We tell victims of robbery to do things like take self defense classes, be aware of their surroundings, get an alarm system, buy a gun, etc. We tell victims of identity theft to be more aware of where they use their credit cards and who they share their PII with…not only that, but we tell them to pull their credit reports annually to make sure no accounts have been opened without their knowledge.
What makes rape so different??? I tell my little sister all sorts of helpful tips and put safe guards in place to reduce the risk of anything happening to her while she is out and about. My grandma used to tell me to always check the back seat of my car before I get in…I still do that to this day. One of the first things kids are taught, right after learning to look before crossing the street, is how to act if ever approached by a stranger.
Anytime time you address a topic like that, you’re going to reactions that run the gamut and that’s okay. One reason I keep coming back is the discussion that the posts generate. The topics get people talking…sharing…learning.
Glad you decided to come back..
Well said.
Excellent. Thank you.
” EVERY crime we ask the victimes to shoulder the burden of prevention and risk reduction. We tell victims of robbery to do things like take self defense classes, be aware of their surroundings, get an alarm system, buy a gun, etc. We tell victims of identity theft to be more aware of where they use their credit cards and who they share their PII with…not only that, but we tell them to pull their credit reports annually to make sure no accounts have been opened without their knowledge.”
Thank you so much for this! This is another point I made yesterday that got ignored/lost in the shuffle. It’s a natural reaction to try to problem solve instead of just sitting their silent and offering nothing but condolences. Doesn’t make it right, but we do it ANYTIME something bad happens. It goes all the way back to getting mad at my parents after I would fall and bump my head and they’d spend 5 minutes talking about how to be careful and how I shouldn’t have been horsing around in the first place and blah blah blah. We all hate to hear a bunch of logic AFTER WE GET HURT especially, so I get why ppl got offended, but it’s certainly not just rape that gets that type of response. Although I get why something that traumatic would truly piss someone off to no end. You live and you learn.
Sounds like you are continually defending an illogical emotional reaction that makes the situation worse.
Dude logic?
Your comments are entirely non-productive and consistently show the contempt you have for men. We get it, men are evil, have dude logic, etcetera etcetera. This song of yours has gotten old; please drop a new track already.
” Your comments are entirely non-productive and consistently show the contempt you have for men. We get it, men are evil, have dude logic, etcetera etcetera. This song of yours has gotten old; please drop a new track already.”
LMFAO!!! Perfectly worded man. Couldn’t have said it better myself, and wouldn’t have tried. I gave up on responding to that individual. Seems like a very sad life she lives. I won’t add insult to her injuries lol
I agree that it’s the amount of trauma one is feeling at the time that influences the response to pragmatic critique. It’s like if I got my car stolen after I left the doors unlocked and someone pointed out that I left the doors unlocked. If I was still feeling violated and pissed I’d take their comment as a suggestion that I “deserved” what I got (rage-induced non sequitur, which doubles as a straw man if I go on to argue down that suggestion). I might fire back that locking doors wouldn’t keep a determined thief from smashing the windows so just f*** that.
the difference here is that if your car can get taken without you in it. that’s not happeneing with rape.
and the other piece is that you’re right, you can justify why your car got taken. but justifying doesnt make it right does it?
what you all are basically saying, if i’m hearing you right is this:
rape happens. try not to get raped. that is a slippery slope if i ever heard one.
Thank you PJ.
Can I say that the discussion yesterday, and some of what I’m reading today frighten me? I’ve never been raped, and I’ve always tried to be careful in my daily life in order to minimize whatever factors I can. Some of the sentiments expressed by both men and women are downright scary. “Rape happens, try not to get raped” is scary. And the further thought of “and if you do, maybe you should’ve done more to prevent it/protect yourself” is implied, IMHO.
No, PJ. What I am saying is “it’s the amount of trauma one is feeling at the time that influences the response to pragmatic critique.” It is what it is.
“rape happens. try not to get raped. that is a slippery slope if i ever heard one.”
Straw man. This is an example of the type of non-sequitir I’m talking about. Are you suggesting that I’m saying that this is the ultimate solution? No matter how careful I am to emphasize in my posts that this is only *part* of the equation, this gets singled out, dissected, placed out of context, and highlighted as a proposed end-all-be-all statement.
” rape happens. try not to get raped. that is a slippery slope if i ever heard one.”
Whenever a tragedy like rape happens and people ask you to have a discussion about it (including possible prevention strategies) simply offer condolences, agree with everything the victim says and keep it moving…also a slippery slope if I ever heard one…
thank you for stating this more eloquently. we are always advised to way to make ourselves less of a target for a predator. if 99 times out of one hundred our attack is unavoidable, so be it. but for the 1 time we do have opportunity to affect the outcome, we try to prepare ourselves. that’s the idea i got from yesterday’s post.
after reading yesterday’s post i thought about the times i made myself so vulnerable and thank god, nothing happened.
That’s the same idea I got but every time I type that I’m told that I’m contradicting myself.
Oh, and apparently I’m a dude now so excuse me while I scratch my balls and go get a little more cultured in rape.
+1
And this has drastically reduced all those crimes from happening! No? Darn! Let’s just keep telling them, sooner or later the crime rate will drop if we continue to chastise people!
People are also taught that taking things that don’t belong to you is wrong and punishable by law. So there’s that. Does it prevent all theft? Not even close but enough of us are scared of being anally raped that it makes us think twice about our actions.
As you said, “What makes rape so different?”
” People are also taught that taking things that don’t belong to you is wrong and punishable by law. So there’s that. Does it prevent all theft? Not even close but enough of us are scared of being anally raped that it makes us think twice about our actions.”
Exactly. He won’t acknowledge that the concept is the same. Telling men not to rape women will have a greater effect than telling women how to keep out of harm’s way when possible…right, let me know how that one goes sir.
I’m sorry, but I have a serious problem with a woman telling me what I am REQUIRED to do to protect her from a crime. I have no problem helping and stepping up when it’s clear someone needs help, and I definitely have in the past. However, being told that by so many of the women yesterday triggered the bejesus out of me. Why? Well, you know how I’ve mentioned on this blog a whole bunch of times that I grew up from emotional abuse from my mom.
I wasn’t joking.
I really had to fall back because mentally, I wasn’t in 2012, I was in 1990 getting yelled at for some random reason because my mom “had a stressful job” and “had so much trouble trying to take care of us”. I know that a lot of the women are coming from a point of pain, but when you vent like that, you can hurt a lot of people. Yes, I understand that the trauma is real and real deep. There are healthy ways to deal with this trauma, and unhealthy ways. Sadly, a lot of people crossed over to the unhealthy side, and thus unloaded a lot of pain onto other that didn’t deserve it.
+1. So you weren’t the only one feeling like your mom was “discussing” *at* you?
Man, I even witnessed Anticool being accused of “trying to be one if the boys” because of her differing viewpoint.
I’m still worried that my BW Card is going to be put up for review.
If it goes under review, I’ll vouch for you.
Thanks. I knew I could count on you.
*raises hand* Me too.
You admittedly got emotionally charged because the things folks were saying brought you back to instances with your mother. Yet, it appeared as if you didn’t get why some women would read what Champ wrote and get taken back to the instances of them telling their friends/family/significant other/detectives about their ordeal and hearing something akin to “did you use common sense?”
I feel for you because I know begin taken back to painful places isn’t the greatest feeling in the world. I don’t know about any other poster, but all I wanted was some understanding on why employing common sense as if that was the key to solving the “rape issue” was so offensive to women who’ve lived this.
I will be very limited and specific in what I said because someone (not you for the record) commenting just about had me in full tears here. Let me say this. It hurts to feel like you are responsible for someone else’s pain when you had nothing to do with it. I do feel where women are coming from when they are in pain. What I have an issue with is being held responsible for actions I didn’t do, I didn’t control and I couldn’t control even if I wanted to.
A lot of post veered right into “all ninjas ain’t sh!t” territory, especially when I tried to discuss objective facts. Note that I said facts, because there’s no such thing as an objective feeling. When you start stating info and things that are at least falsifiable, and you hear back “you don’t care! It’s all your fault!” I mean…yeesh. I wouldn’t be able to pick out 99% of the people on this site from a police line-up, yet I’m responsible for your rape? Yeah…
” What I have an issue with is being held responsible for actions I didn’t do, I didn’t control and I couldn’t control even if I wanted to.
A lot of post veered right into “all ninjas ain’t sh!t” territory, especially when I tried to discuss objective facts. ”
Yup. Alladat is true. And you’re right feelings aren’t objective or falsifiable, but facts are. I get that people wanted to talk about feelings yesterday, but they should’ve just left it at that. Them discussing their feelings. Don’t come at those of us who have a different focus (discussing and understanding where lines of consent lay in different scenarios and working towards solutions to the cases that can be prevented, even though most cases can’t be prevented) and berate us, calling us names simply because our discussion doesn’t place your feelings above ALL ELSE including possible solutions for the ppl who haven’t actually been victimized but could be in the future.
“Victims of robbery aren’t told to “stop dressing rich or stop living in nice homes;’ victims of identity theft aren’t told “stop being who you are or stop having good credit.’ ”
I disagree with this. People are given advice on preventing identify theft all the time when much of it is useless. People who fall victim to loan scams are often ridiculed. People are told to not be flashy. As I mentioned yesterday, I’ve seen many examples of robbery victims being asked (or in private discussion) “why were you down there? You shouldn’t have had all those rings on.” Domestic violence victims always get the question “why the hell you stayed?” The questioning of victims is not limited to r.ape. That isn’t arguing whether it’s right or wrong, just pointing out r.ape is not the only situation where this happens.
Looking at it from that point, I agree.
Yeah and all of those dumb questions are bogus and do NOTHING to stop the crimes from actually happening…
That is what I was saying and got attacked for it. I even laid out exactly how and why but people still wanted to mansplain’ to me about this or that irrelevant issue… SMH.
I agree; after the fact these questions don’t stop crime. But you really don’t know if they have prevented a crime and probably never will. How do I know that because I left those rings at home, the thief chose the person next to me and not me? (I think that’s just the easiest illustration of what I’m saying. And in that case it didn’t actually prevent the crime, it just prevented it from happening to me, but I’m rambling…)
The predators (of many kinds) are going to attack no matter what. All we can do is try to move ourselves from the line of fire. Many times there’s no way to do that. There are so many victims of violence that had absolutely no way out.
I don’t believe it’s unreasonable to suggest there may be ways to make oneself a less desirable target in some cases; in the case of r.ape, probably very very few cases. Now is that the way to live- constantly stifling our inclinations and interactions because of fear? I think that’s a difference discussion. I do acknowledge that women are constantly given advice about being aware of our surroundings (and the like); that’s not new information.
Can you honestly say you’ve never seen an article about “How NOT to look like a tourist”? When you go out of town, leave the lights on, leave the TV on, get a recording that barks like a dog. For Christmas time don’t leave out boxes, because then people know what new things you have in your home. I’ve heard all these things, and I’ve never thought that it was being implied that the people were ASKING to be robbed. But I don’t know…. maybe this is an argument I shouldn’t make. I honestly understand what BOTH sides are saying. It just pains me that one side is not listening to the other. But it is what it is. This is mentally exhausting… I can’t…
Lurker here. I won’t touch yesterday’s topic bc my life makes it painful to do so. However I realize that ur piece yesterday didn’t come from a place of malice. It simply highlights the bigger conversation that needs to be had to change the way rape is viewed country. I still love u both, will still visit the blog and still aspire to attend “Reminisce” one of these Saturdays:)
As someone who wasn’t offended by yesterday’s post but understands the sentiment of those who were offended by the content AND also agrees that it’s a topic that most with such a large, diverse audience should either stay away from or stick to the facts at most, I can appreciate this follow up post.
I’m sure a few regular readers and potential readers were lost, but I also think those that are still here will find it comforting to know that a blogger like yourself with such a large platform is not too large to take a step back and re-assess your approach in the best interest of your readers/supporters.
Thanks for admitting to being biased before you read Zerlina’s post.
Diva Dudes! Yeaaaaahhhh!
Though he still has nothing on Kanye, my favorite diva dude.
LOL. I wasn’t calling Champ a Diva Dude. I was cheering about the Diva Dudes video.
OMG, I can’t wait to see it.
Oh.
(quietly goes back to the corner)
first i’m happy i actually get to post a reply when there isnt already 300+ responses when i wake up in the morning, and getting lost in the mix.
Second Im disappointed that subject erupted like it did. I know this is light hearted most of the time, but it truly is refreshing, to be able to “go there” and talk about any and all subjects, that sadly get swept under the rug.
Its sad yet understandable how some people reacted, but its truly opened my eyes.
I still continue to support you guys, and I wish nothing but success.
although Im sad cause I know this will probably lead to you all censoring yall selves in the future. similar to a underground artist going mainstream C’est la vive , but anyway you still have a (die-hard almost) fan in me.
I feel bad. I was honestly going to tell you yesterday (CA time only 9pm) when I read this and it only had 5 comments to take it down before it got that bad. I just wasn’t sure if that would’ve been noted, or if it was needed bc sometimes things need to be said out loud so it can be addressed. I love ya’ man but smh. What’s tomorrow’s post going to be about?
I read and responded to your last post literally minutes before this one was released, it seems. On the eve of another one of you “shit says” videos, you may want to look at the clip “Shit Everybody Says To Rape Victims” on youtube to see how a lot of the sentiments are perpetuated in real life while making little difference and, according to the comments, causing real hurt.
This little twat boy attitude you have is just simply ridiculous. My bad…I’m old…this is how you surf when you swag.
I weep for future black men if this is where we’re headed…matter of fact…here’s my black man card…call me a maroon man. Is it ok if I stick around and watch the train wreck? Dude said fck all y’all feelings…and what?
@me- dude what are you talking about? (serious question)
lmao just asked the same damn thing
Let’s see here…he stood his ground like a man.
He did not think his post out before making asshole claims…he was too selfish to realize he was doing wrong because to him…his actions were right. And what is not apologizing while apologizing? A settlement. Eddie Long…
The man straight disrespected people without REGARD times 2. As in…he then took back to his post for an update on the fact that he was going to continue doing him.
That is not manhood…grow up…take some real responsibility and get some damm integrity back…as humans. And then maybe you can become gentle men. Women don’t call me beautiful for superficial reasons…you might wanna listen.
For you guys playing devil’s advocate…fine…but do not minimize this guy’s lack of respect…
Signed,
A former diva dude
(during one semester during freshman year)
I don’t get this post either.
@ The Other Jerome- lmao! right! That’s what I was thinkin. Like did this dude really just compare Champ to Eddie Long?! Well dayum! lol, aite dude, we get it, you’re still pissed even though most of the women who this directly effects are over it for the most part….ok. And congrats on being called beautiful for non-superficial reasons…I’m not sure I would take that as a compliment, but I’m glad you wear it with pride
That was almost as bad as a 2012 SNL skit.
Nice try though.
Thank you, sir.
Church!
Homie what are you talking about though????
Whaaa….?
I didnt comment yesterday cause I didnt have anything to add but the topic is something that is discussed in private company…Thanks to Champ for bringing it out into the light.
+1. There are some things I know not to touch with a 50ft pole and yesterday’s topic is one of them.
Personally, as a “victim” i wasn’t offended by the post yesterday (even though i chose not to comment on it)…probably because i’m desensitized to the conversation at this point. The only true beef i have with the “rape/responsibility” discussion is the extreme level of hypocrisy that it is almost always presented with. In one sentence you say “no means no, always” and that a man should never force a woman to do anything she doesn’t wanna do. But then in the next breath we tell women “well, you led him on, let him stick it in and THEN you changed up and said no…what did you expect to happen?” Um, i expected no to mean no…just like you said. You can’t tell me no means no and then renege because you’re supposedly caught up in your hormones at the time.
Triggering women to remembering their rape is totally the equivalent to “bothering” them.
Wow. Okay.
Yes, Anti-Cool, myself and others were triggered. WAY THE HELL TRIGGERED.
That people’s traumatic memories were triggered was obvious. That Champ callously set out to do that? Not so much.
Nobody said he set out to do it. He was callous in disregarding the possibility that would happen.
And he was callous in saying… after reading our reactions… basically eff us and so what if we were deeply hurt by his insinuations… he ain’t apologizing.
You can choose to regard it as an “eff you” if you want to, and have a chip on your shoulder. Or you can be the bigger person and admit to yourself that you know Champ’s intention wasn’t to disrespect or hurt anybody. Either way, it’s not a good idea to lose sleep over someone’s else opinion of you.
What would you do if the roles were reversed?
@MictheMessenger- PLEASE don’t waste your time bruh. Pleeeeease don’t do it. You strike me as a sane person, but you won’t be for much longer if you waste too much time with logical statements like that in THIS discussion smh
Yup, just call me crazy so you can dismiss what I am saying.
So the answer is to walk on eggshells?
Seriously, man, I get trying not to trigger folk. Respect is a given. However, forcing someone to avoid triggering people is just as abusive as triggering them on purpose. The opposite of stupid behavior isn’t necessarily smart.
You’re better than this man. Think deeper.
I was listening to Rush on day, and he said one of his first bosses told him to just be honest about what he thinks. As long was being honest, putting his thoughts out there, not being sensationalist for the sake of it, they would support him.
I don’t say that to argue whether he’s done that, but I think that’s what opinion writers have to do to be successful. They have to put their thoughts out there to be bashed and ridiculed or supported. I think that’s a hard thing to do.
It’s “just as abusive” in the same way getting death threats is just as abusive is getting killed.
i get your point but i dont agree with the implied conclusion. some sh*t does need to be talked about. now, there’s a way to try to talk about it all. and if you decide you want to go down that road, then you have to be careful.
but real talk, the only way to truly exact change is for folks to put their real feelings out there. even if they do it subconsciously. that’s how you spark debate. if we here at VSB specifically tried not to ruffle feathers more than half the people wouldn’t knwo who we are and nobody would care to come here and check us when we do have missteps. well aside from Liz who definitely loves to tell me when i’m jacked up. publicly.
point is, i aint made he wrote the post. i do think it could have been done in a more delicate and constructive way.
I take no issue that a rape post was made. There could be one every month and I’d be fine. The actual content of said post bothered me. It was far too simplistic and didn’t address the humanity of the issue outside of casual asides that wouldn’t be necessary if it was written better. You can write about rape and still be snarky and glib. You’d have to actually try harder to back it up with worthwhile material that shows you know something about rape and the history of discussions that have surrounded rape.
Panama, point is… nothing that Champ wrote promoted change.
He said women need to get educated so we won’t get raped. We told him, we women, have been educated our whole lives and it didn’t save us.
He said, women should use common sense not to get raped. We told him, we use common sense everyday and we still got raped.
He said if you are a 5’1 and 110 lbs woman, and you drink too much, you can be raped. No kidding… ANYONE can be raped even a 6’3 200 lb man. It doesn’t matter and it’s toxic and hateful to mention or single out being 5’1 and 110…
For readers of yours who are rapists. And statistically… there must be some… they hear that… what Champ said and say, “Well, look… here is a guy who agrees with me… I COULDN’T have raped that chick last week at the bar… because she was petite and thought she could keep up with us. How can anyone hold me responsible? If she didn’t want me to have sex with her… she shouldn’t have been drinking. Ahhh… whatever… it falls into a grey area… ”
By telling women don’t do this… don’t do that… you are giving built in excuses for rapists. You are telling them to go find these type of victims so that no one else will point the finger back at them, they will be too consumed with second guessing the actions of the victim.
Like I said yesterday, responsibility is key. As much as people may want to think they can say and do anything bc they are popular, the more popular you become, the more your work is looked at and crutinized. I dont think that this will censor you guys as someone said but i do believe that you will look more closely at your writing and chose your words and thoughts more carefully.
I don’t believe that anyone feels that you were being malicious on purpose with the piece you wrote but what probably didnt help was your half a$$ attempt at an apology at 11:07. Now honestly, that was where i saw an arrogance from you that i have never seen before in the 8 mths i have been visiting this site. You could have kept that to yourself and waited until you could gather your thoughts much better as you did today.
Mistakes happen and you learn from them. People may still be upset but keep it moving. Today is a new day.
I always respect your opinion and I didn’t see a problem with yesterday’s post. Even if I would have it would not have stopped me from coming back to your website to read more.
Okay, maybe that “Rape is bad. The end.” blog post isn’t such a bad idea after all.
” Okay, maybe that “Rape is bad. The end.” blog post isn’t such a bad idea after all”
Yep. That was my conclusion also. We all win that way. I dare a ninja to argue that lol
Please don’t. You know someone would take that dare just because.
*smacks you with gauntlet* Chal-LUNGE
I bet you that post will garner a discussion on what “if X, Y, and Z happened – is that really rape?” type comments…much like what happened yesterday.
Ugh. Flame war nightmare. Okay, maybe it’s not such a good idea.
I didn’t see you say anything regard how men can actually help stop rape. Your focus was entirely on women somehow preventing rape even through we all know if a rapist wants to rape he will rape…
That is absolutely incorrect.
Really, prove otherwise…
I didn’t see you say anything regard how men can actually help stop rape. Your focus was entirely on women somehow preventing rape even through we all know if a rapist wants to rape he will rape…
“you have enemies, good, that means you stood up for something” -winston churchill
you stood by your view/opinion of the subject and atricle, thats the nature of the beast, you can always please everyone. altho the subject might have been sensitive, as you state, its so complex there is no simple way to approach it.
Well champ i can honestly say thay im over it & i forgive u for that boneheaded mess u wrote yesterday. Im the type that when i get angry, i say what i need 2 say, then i move past it. No grudges here boo. Im still rockin wit u & vsb legoooooo!
No grudges…? What kind of “Ice Princess” are you?? =P
Lmmfao! Dat wuz a good 1. Thanx 4 makin me laugh this mornin
I appreciate this post. I also appreciate that you didn’t apologize coz I would have completely lost respect for you.
Yesterday’s post was a little hurtful but I wasn’t offended. There is a huge difference between logical and emotional reasoning. As a woman I read yesterday’s post emotionally and then came back later to read it logically. I saw good points, bad points and wtf points but mostly I saw good intentions with bad delivery. So I didn’t comment. More than enough people did that for me. Funny but it probably took a hundred people to articulate my thoughts for me yesterday.
I think sitting on that article for a day or three and then proofreading would have made it a little better. But c’est la vie
The past is the past. Move on. I remain a fan albeit a slightly less worshipping one.
Yesterday’s post should have been handled with far more diligence to language – if such care was paid, a lot of the victim blaming and frankly the lack of understanding of rape culture may have been avoided. ‘ll just add this link here: It’s Sh*t Everybody Says to Rape Victims. I’ll stick a trigger warning just in case:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1ocXCYUjQ
It takes a bigger person to admit when they’ve offended another. We’re human and all put our feet in our mouths at one time or another, whether intentionally or not.
Yesterday’s topic was upsetting but, the “backlash” was necessary. Reality check! Part (if not, most) of VSB’s success is attributable to the commenters, including some regulars like Mo-VSS, Liz and others, who keep the conversation going after that final question mark encourages us to respond.
Controversial, highly sensitive and personal topics can be discussed but at the expense of offending some of the people who’ve helped you reach this status, is it worth it?
You just hit the nail on the head. Both PJ and Champ must realize that when one screws up, it affects the other. This is the problem that I had yesterday, not so much what was written (it was insensitive but you learn from your mistakes) it was the simple fact that when he “apologized” it came off so arrogant and was a bad look for the authors of the site. Like come on Champ, I get that you are having success and that your name is getting out there but please climb down from whatever pedestal you have placed yourself on and give a sincere apology or not one at all. You haven’t arrived to the point where you don’t have to apologize when you offend a nice size portion of your readers. If he would have said, “I am sincerely sorry for offending anyone with this piece. I didn’t research it well and if I would have known that it would have affected so many, which wasn’t my intent, I would have been more careful about my choice of words. How would y’all, our readers, have approached this topic differently so that I can do better in the future? THE END” I really think that that would have turned around the conversation some. But he had to say, “I’m not sorry, a female friend has justified my carelessness and my feeling that yall are crazy, deal with it” that was just overboard.
We don’t always want to apologize when we feel that we have done nothing wrong but when it can affect your reputation, and that of your partner(s), just say sorry (or shut your mouth) and sit down.
Yes, he couldn’t even take responsibility for not vetting the post… smh.
appreciate the apology.. its good to look outside of your self..shows insight
Contradictory sentence that somehow makes perfect sense. Awesome!
I’m glad you do occasionally tackle serious topics, but unfortunately, this was me yesterday:
1 )goofing off on twitter
2) someone posts link to a video of a man giving a dolphin a BJ (didn’t watch the video, but knowing that happened was bad enough)
3) goes to VSB for some levity/a brain cleanse
4) sees the topic is rape
5) sees my twitter timeline is STILL talking about the dolphin BJ
6) throws laptop out window
So yeah, I’m waiting for the next post based on The Champ’s next YouTube video “Sh*t Black pr0n connoisseurs say in church”
How about a post on Jay choosing White Jay….??
OMG. There was a thread on that? Where?
Whoops, never mind. This was a proposed blog post.
Good idea. I was happy with her decision in the end, myself.
Yeah. TOTALLY saw it coming though.
The Childish Gambino part was hilarity.
Yesss, i was hoping that might pop up because i think she made the right choice.
Ugh, so mad I just read that. I still haven’t watched that episode yet.
-_-
Ughh…… Um….. Late Spoiler Alert?? =/
Sorry about the spoiler. Still worth watching. So many well-filmed genuinely awkward moments. Still some gotchas and surprises throughout.
lmao! Your twitter is all hilarity. I just read the title ‘For those of you who stay awake at night wondering “where is Pastor Troy?” and I hear about the dolphin BJ too
*heard*
If seriously the only thing you took away from yesterday was that people where “whining” and “getting emotional” because they were raped before, you were never honestly interested in any type of dialogue. And even if the rare chance that you were, you are too thick headed to understand. Just as you are thick headed if you thick that it’s an unpopular opinion that women deserved to punished for drinking, walking around late alone, it’s their fault, or any such variation. It’s certainly uneducated, but it isn’t be any means unpopular. It’s pretty big part of the reason that people use to support that “rape culture” is a real thing.
Who is saying this? Really?
You, Royale, and justmetheguy are doing it RIGHT NOW opining that “productive” conversations can’t occur because people took the conversation to heart. Any conversation about human nature that is divorced from humanity and the experiences of people involved is not a conversation that is worthwhile in any sort of way.
Rape is wrong. The end.
Pretty much sums up all your thoughtful commentary to a tee.
Wat, I’ve got more.
Rape is bad. The end.
Your insensitivity knows no bounds. Like, I get it. People were “emotional” but now you are just adding salt to wounds by being callous. Can you seriously just stop? You are behaving like a jerk. It really isn’t funny.
“Jerk”? Well bless your heart*, too.
*Southern lingo.
I strongly disagree, and here is why. I understand being considerate and respectful of someone’s pain. However, there’s a point where “considering someone’s pain” becomes “controlling your own emotions by controlling someone’s thoughts and behavior.” Which, if you break it down, was what the rapist was doing in the first damn place. So two wrongs don’t make a right, but it damn sure makes it even? Alrighty then…
That is not what I took from yesterday’s comments and if that is all some are taking from my comments I’m afraid I can’t help that.
I understand that was a rough post for many. Was the only acceptable response to just say “I hear you, I’m sorry for your pain” and that’s it? That’s not how this blog works and I wouldn’t be here if it was.
If that’s all you got, you weren’t interested in having a discussion. There are thousands of different ways to discuss rape outside of blaming people. Someone could of simply asked something extremely basic like “What is consent?” Could of debated the FBI’s new definition of rape. Could of brought up male rape and tried to actually talk about that. Could of talked about the normalization of alcoholism in society. Could of talked about entitlement. And thousands of different things outside of the Mills Lane “protect yourself at all times”.
If I wasn’t interested in the discussion I wouldn’t have been there or stayed there as long as I did.
And I didn’t see you asking any of those questions among the shouting sooo…Yeah.
Can’t grow a garden without first exterminating the pests.
Uh huh.
” Could’ve asked what is consent?” Uhhh hello! I did that, but you were too busy assuming and formulating a rebuttal that had nothing to do with the questions I was asking or the points I was making. Thick-headed was a good adjective to use, but you used it in reference to the wrong person.
” Could of talked about the normalization of alcoholism in society.”
Guess what sir? Yep, did that too.
“Could’ve talked about entitlement”
Wait for it…..yup, did that too (albeit in response to someone else mentioning it first).
So yeah, you basically just confirmed what I thought. You weren’t actually reading my post (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you skimmed them for phrases that you could rebut or concepts that you could attack, whether or not they involved my actual words or not). You can’t say that you were trying to have a discourse (and we weren’t) when clearly you weren’t even paying attention to what was said….smh
Except the part where I (and several others) brought up or addressed all those points the past two days that no one cared to respond to.
I cut and pasted all of your questions and statements and answered them ONE BY ONE…
You responded to that post by saying I was 1.) Crazy. 2.) Stupid. 3.) Too emotional to be rational.
Big up. reading comprehension and crtical thinking are skills not many possess. glad to see you hold that power
Soooo , from what I understand ,the only thing you took away from yesterday’s discussion was that you pulled your misinterpretation of the article out of your a$$ and VSB is really fckin popular. Prolific.
The more I think about it, the more I shouldn’t have been too surprised at the callous nature of the post or the comments. If memory serves me correct when the Eddie Long scandal was discussed, the post and plenty of the commentors (especially the men) were callous, and either dismissed or scoffed at the notion of labeling Long’s misconduct with his young male parishioners as “rape” or even “molestation” because “they could have said no, and they were 16″. So here we are again, and hark the sentiment is strikingly similar. However I am also similar in the way that my sympathy will always lie with victims. Maybe that’s just me, but when I hear someone detail how they’ve been violated I cannot fathom replying “uh-huh I see, shyt sounds awful, now what could YOU have done differently?” And my stance does not depend on the victims genitalia as I was just as fervent in my defense of the aforementioned young male victims.
In fact I have had a male friend who was raped while intoxicated. He passed out at his boy’s house (drunk) and woke up to find his friends sister performing oral sex on him. He was horrified but just pretended to be asleep till she finished, and he didn’t want to do anything to “rock the boat” since he lived there and couldn’t afford to be kicked out. But it bothered him, and despite him feigning ambivalence I could tell it did, and repeatedly informed him he was raped. It angers me just remembering this discussion because he didn’t deserve that. No one does. I hate I had to convince him that it was rape, and just because he was erect it did not indicate consent. That is no more a “gray area” than it is with a woman who flirts..but I digress.
My point is I will never understand how easy it is for you and your cronies to gloss over the trauma of others in an effort to lament on your ill-informed pious, and presumptuous rants. I will never understand a willingness to hurt a victim for the sake of a “provocative discussion” that involves me taking no pains to choose my words carefully or employ forethought. I would actually care about upsetting sexual assault victims, or sending them the wrong message. I guess I’m a simp like that, maybe because as a victim of various sexual abuses and have so many close fam and friends who have experienced the same, I’m automatically sensitive to a victims perspective.
Whatever the case may be, that’s where the differences lie. I can’t pretend to be ok with this shyt, or feign diplomacy about it on an online forum no less then I can do in a tangible reality. You can keep this haphazard a$$ quasi introspective mock-apology. Admittedly a lot of your posts are pious, pretentious, pompous, insensitive , curmudgeonly and ill-informed, or I’m sorry “raw and unapologetic” the absurdity occurs while actually viewing it in motion with a subject that deserves better, as opposed to a comical subject. I think it speaks volumes when you can concede to how little effort it took for you to write about rape. For some people it seems for anything to matter it has to effect them personally. I find that sad.
I’m not one for dramatic exits, but I can’t support any website that purports this mentality. Good Luck to Panama and Liz though.
I’m definitely still gonna support. Just after today (because I was so involved in yesterday’s debate and I do want to follow up on my sentiments and POV) I won’t read VSB during the weeks that Champ posts. May sound over-the-top to some, but his post was just that offensive to me. PJ def still gets my support though (and Liz does too with the various projects she has going on).
Really? That’s how you choose to live? Well, then. I wish you peace with your decision.
Hey Mo, I get what ur saying. Different strokes for different strokes. Good luck, & respect.
@ Sagey- Um…ok as difficult a decision as it may be to cut my deeply rooted ties with a website…..Yeah. I kind of have a choice on where I choose to click, especially if I find its content offensive. I’m not lobbying for anyone to join me, this ain’t no movement.Shockingly I will survive and so will VSB.
Imma need you to stop acting like I’m cutting ties w/ my Mama. I don’t really fck w/ anybody on here like that so it’s not that serious. But don’t pretend to have any inkling about “how I live” .like…ever.But yeah…stay Breezy and take it easy or ..yeah.
How you got ‘all of what you said’, from the little bit I said, I will never know. Your mind is only yours and I could only ever guess what is in it. Your responses are fierce. My statement was far from that. I wish you well.
You guys are (were) regulars here, and I’m just a regular lurker, but from reading the thread in question, it seemed to me that the responses to his post did more to bring about understanding than not talking about it at all.
I’m a west coaster so i saw it just after he posted. I knew his conclusions were incorrect, but my instincts were to tell him to delete the damn thing before he got mauled over it. Why? Because there is no point talking about. Lets just talk about tv shows again
But i was wrong. It WAS good to talk about it. Because you all fleshed this ish out! There were some hard heads, but for the most part posters got to the heart of why he was wrong.
A lot of our issues stem not from the outside pressure from our enemy’s, but from the lack of diligence and support from our would be allies. It happens in politics. It happens in our schools and it happens on this issue. There has to be room for those “in the know” to engage with those who -would- support but just don’t know the real deal on the issue. Especially if they are open to listen.
I can’t mind read, but it seems to me most here are willing to engage and listen. This moment seems pretty teachable to me.
Yes, but the majority of posters got to why he was wrong… and he still didn’t acknowledge he was wrong. He refuses to learn anything from his commenters. That is going to be the death of this blog.
I hope you reconsider. Here is the thing, give the man a second chance. I think that everybody learned something from this and hopefully, PJ and Liz talked him down a few notches on the pedestal he put himself on.
Thank you for acknowledging that MEN GET RAPED TOO! By other men…AND by women!
I can’t stand all the Feminists yesterday who were dismissing men from the conversation by saying: “You’re a man! You wouldn’t understand! You can’t talk about this!”
BULL$HIT!
Preach! Some women were jumping out the window yesterday because of their trauma, talking about men don’t get raped.
Wow…
Dude. DUDE. Since the vast majority of people here don’t seem to know what feminism is: It is the support of/belief in equal rights for women. I, for example, am a feminist who knows that men can be rape victims. Perceived hostility against men IS NOT FEMINISM. CHILL. If you want to be pissed call it gender-based descrimination or sexism (which, imo, is a goddamned stretch in most of the cases mentioned). Just stop attributing things to the very necessary concept/movement of feminism that have NOTHING to do with it due to ignorance. Because right now your post looks to me like a misaimed conspiracy theory.
+1
this.
Rights are protected by laws and guaranteed by courts. Feminism isn’t a rights organization – It’s a philosophy and an ideology aimed at challenging patriarchy and it’s supporters, it’s not simply interested in equal protection under the law for men and women, which is what most rights organizations are primarily concerned about. Feminism was founded on the idea of equal rights for men and women, but anyone who visits a feminist site knows you’re more likely to read an article talking about “Rape Culture” than to run into an article talking about women getting cheated by the court system, which would be an equal rights issue.
I think that Champ’s response was dead on. Your mention of “provocative discussion” and “taking pains to choose words carefully or employ forethought” further solidify my opinion. Honest and open discussion is at least hampered by mincing words and having to tiptoe around peoples feelings. Now when dealing with victims I agree that the assurance that their comfort isn’t compromised is PRIORITY #1. But from my experience, if the slider goes from “open and brutally honest forum” on one end and “safe haven for victims and support group for the violated” on the other, VSB leans heavily towards the former. We all know that VSB is snarky, sarcastic, and assholish; this is one I of the things that I, personally, love most about it and I certainly don’t think that I’m alone on that. Champ was saying that this was not the place for such a touchy subject. Champ handled the subject matter in a manner similar to the way he handles every other subject that he chooses to tackle. That consistency is what makes me, personally favor him to P. VSB is a like a gladiatorial arena where Champ, Panama, and subsequently other VSB’s and VSS’s, tear subjects to shreds all in good fun of course. This subject however had NO BUSINESS in Thunderdome.
Thank you.
+1 Well said, sister.
I enjoy your posts very much. Hopefully you’ll reconsider.
MK I understand your point and it is valid based on YOUR example. At the same I understand Champs point and it too is valid. Too many times society tries to do the one situation fits all when there are clearly some siginificant differences.
i’ll for one miss ya, but understand.
we’re told @ em or dap and if we dont like it, dont click it, etc etc…
you are taking a stance on what you want to engage in and there is nothing wrong with that.
Sad to see you go. I wish you could stick around, cause nobody can put things as succinctly as you. You’re the ish and my personal chick hero on the internets. I understand, though.
Sorry to see you go. I think you educated a lot of people yesterday, whether they commented or not. Voices of reason and dissent are needed in every forum, and I think your leaving means we lose one more VSS to debate important points.
“Admittedly a lot of your posts are pious, pretentious, pompous, insensitive , curmudgeonly and ill-informed, or I’m sorry “raw and unapologetic” the absurdity occurs while actually viewing it in motion with a subject that deserves better, as opposed to a comical subject.”
Bravo! I’m glad somebody finally proved my point. The appeal of the Champ is the fact that he is pious, pretentious, pompous, insensitive, curmudgeonly, uninformed, raw and apologetic and all of that is magnified in his writing and his appeal. However, the fact that he had the gall/audacity to be who he is, and discuss rape, is what got so many women, including yourself, upset and willing to leave VSB.
That’s why I’m glad he didn’t give the apology most of his critiques would like him to make: they want him to apologize for being insensitive, which really means they want him to apologize for being himself. They want him to apologize for the same thing that has made him successful. They want him to apologize for all of the bad, and still want all of the good as well. Unfortunately, if the Champ did what you requested and truly did it from the heart, he would be unable to be the Champ no more, which is why it’s better for you to leave upset, than he change himself to appease you.
I have to say, I was shocked when I read yesterday’s post, but not offended. Mainly because as an *sshole myself (Crowning Achievement: being called Dr. House on steroids), I understood what you were trying to say. And I’m glad you didn’t take back what you said. Could it have been worded better? Maybe. But the point was there.
Personally, I’m a guy who believes no subject is too Taboo to talk about. As an Atheist I find myself getting in constant squabbles about religion with the In-Your-Face Christinas, much to my despair. When a subject becomes Taboo, nothing ever gets fixed, nothing ever gets changed because people don’t want to talk about it. However, rape is not a subject I talk about a lot. Not because I deem it Taboo, but I just don’t think about it. I’m usually arguing about Race, Religion, or Gender Roles…..
Christians*
And also, as someone said earlier. At point, in discussions like those you have to just call it quits because the other side just doesn’t care to hear your opinions as they feel you aren’t qualified to have an opinion on the subject. I feel as if this is false on most levels. When you’re trying to understand someone, everyone’s opinions count, even an outsider’s. It let’s people know how you view things from your perspective. In this case, (a lot of) men and our views on rape. You may hate his opinion, but don’t disregard it. When we learn where each other is coming from, that’s when we begin to bridge gaps and learn to educate/understand one another.
“While I think this conversation needs to be had,”
Still.
But, admire your valour to even go there, Champ.
I think the events of yesterday and today provide a perfect example of when women and men think they are talking about the same thing but they sooo aren’t.
Yes.
Yesterday’s comments just showed me that people regardless of gender seem to have a very hard time understanding what consent actually means and how they choose to practice it in their actual lives.
+1
Some people also showed their true colors and that the could give precisely two f*cks about consent.
I read the article from yesterday followed by the comment section…and I was in tears realizing that men like Champ don’t realize how heavy a burden a victim already deals with (a survivor myself, by someone I trusted) and then to add the arrogance and ignorance of the post made me even more upset
…i have literally lost hope in men…your “apology” means nothing…IT IS NEVER THE VICTIMS FAULT EVER. Doesn’t matter if she is 5’1 110 pounds or a porn star or prostitute. IF they say no its no. You have lost a fan…
Am I the only person who actually didn’t find anything wrong with Yesterday’s post? Yes I know rape is a very serious topic and shouldn’t be taken lightly. But I feel as if alot of people were really overreacting.
But you know, that’s just my opinion.
-Ducks and covers before y’all kill me-
Let me correct myself, but reading more of the comments. I no longer feel that everyone was overreacting, I know they were overreacting.
But the “overreacting” was understandable for the most part. There was some real raw emotion in there yesterday. On both sides.
It’s the fact that there even had to be sides that was bothering me. Almost everyone was saying the same thing in a different way but it was hard to hear over the other stuff.
What I heard a lot of yesterday was “so you’re saying I/she could have prevented it?” I didn’t find that to be the tone of the blog post. Perceptions always differ though.
i believe that many of yesterday’s comments were geared more towards others commenters than the actual post.
A lot of them were directly accusing Champ’s post of blaming the victim.
Because this statement, “…but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date?” implies that if she gets raped in said scenario it was her fault. Drunk or not if she has not given consent or withdraws it at anytime, that is still rape.
I think the more prudent question for this example would have been, what is consent when you are drunk and so is the other party?
“I think the more prudent question for this example would have been, what is consent when you are drunk and so is the other party?”
This. Now this would have been an excellent jump off point and much less inflammatory.
Yesterday’s topic was an emotional one. There is absolutely no reason or rationale to be used in that conversation beyond emotional buffering.
If there is an opinion or a thought that is desired to be shared, then one may as well air it out. If only to learn a lesson. Which is what Champ did. I’m proud he could do that.
To tell people that they are wrong for feeling the way they do is no different than them telling you that you are wrong for feeling the way you do. Sure, there may be times when you need to be told but somethings you just cannot be told about. And scene.
The name calling, that’s a real weakness. Grow don’t just age.
I love my Black people. I love people. My people.
“No man is smarter than the dumbest of us. No man is dumber than the smartest of us.”
No need for exculpatory evidence. Move forward with acceptance & love. Or be chained to emotions from yesteryear. Just live.
indeed……….
Okay? Am I saying something crazy or irrational? Or am I blithely ignorant of a nuanced theme or something? My statements were not trolling. I’m down with awkward honesty all day long.
wrong place….vsb. grrr. That was for “miss tlee”
sorry for the mix up.
High fiving myself for having the common sense to stay completely the eff away from yesterday’s post. Good job self. I just went back and scrolled through and um…. HOLY SH*T people!!
I am with you on this one. Yesterday was the first time that I only looked at VSB twice and could see the poo poo cloud storm brewing.
*EXITSTAGELEFT
I feel real sorrow when I read some of these open wound bruised, battered & sore bitter black woman rants.
Do they know? Do they care? Do they think this is a good thing? Are they okay with giving control of their behavior to somebody that truly couldn’t care less how they live?
I mean, I have so many questions. Hotline numbers. Geez…Acceptance, forgiveness & positivity will get you through most anything. It ain’t what happens to you that matters. It is how you handle what happens to you. Your attitude determines your latitude(whether you are up or down). Just get it together. Okay? I would much rather you were happy. It is a better life.
im going to keep on walking…
Me too.
o____0
*catches up to Keisha*
SANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*big squeeze*
I …just… no… I can’t… this is too cray.
Are y’all saying y’all don’t think the emotional responses aren’t indicative of bitter black woman syndrome? That mess ain’t kosher. It is unresolved emotional conflict. No matter how it is sliced, that baggage will be around until it is unpacked and recycled for good.
Man, I don’t need to tell y’all nothing because y’all ain’t going to hear me no way.
But I ain’t been divorced. I ain’t been scarred by women cheating on me. I ain’t got exes hanging around. No stds…ever. No emotional baggage. I ain’t going to spend my time making somebody else sad. Some of y’all have talked with me in real life. We had issues. You blamed me. I parted ways. It is my experience that the women that frequent this website think it is okay to ask for more than they are willing to give. All I ever asked for was enjoyable conversation. I couldn’t get that from y’all. I say all of that to say: for the women I’ve talked to and the ones I avoid, believe what you want. Swear up and down that you don’t have any issues to deal with. However, you don’t get this upset about SOMEBODY else’s opinion unless you’ve got unresolved issues.
I honestly couldn’t give a sh*t less about what y’all think about me. Y’all ain’t feeding me. Y’all ain’t supporting me. And you ain’t even really pleasant half the time. Now, if I enjoy you…I really do. but the others…think what the f*ck you want.
The Champ is an OPINION BLOGGER. if you have that much of an issue with the other 150 ish other posts he’ll make because of these two posts he gave….then again….go deal with your issues. Make time. A sincere and honest appeal for you to accept yourself and that fact that you have a future but no past. Once you realize that, you should be happier. If you cannot be then you’ll not understand the most precious thing about life is time. And truly, the time you could possibly live. Stop wasting your moments being so effing bitter.
The more things change the more they stay the same…
…one day, i am going to just sit. alongside something edible. and read. every single comment.
What I learned yesterday: If there are 7 or more vertical lines going down a comment thread…**Kevin Hart voice**….”Its about to go DOOOWWWN.”
I need to adhere to a four vertical line limit and then dip.
Yes, this new layout is clean until the conversation gets too deep. One word per line is not wassup.
Ticker-tape comments.
I so tried not to laugh at this. I agree though (and I bet my Optometrist does too).
VSB needs an expand/collapse feature for the comments section. STAT
Yep. Lesson learned. Guess we did get something out of yesterday’s post after all.
Didn’t think it was possible, but today’s post is twice as disturbing as yesterday’s. To read all that and STILL feel the same way? And people are STILL up here co-signing and making light of it?
I just keep thinking about friends of mine who have experienced this. One was raped by a mutual friend of ours, a guy who we all thought the world of. I can’t even look at him now without wanting to seriously hurt him, but most people don’t know because she never said anything. Another friend was sexually assaulted by her grandfather as a child. Never told anyone in her family. As I read these posts, I can’t get the tears on these young women’s faces or the anguish in their eyes out of my head. “Common sense” didn’t do sh!t for them, and I don’t even want to imagine how they would feel if they read these last couple posts.
Mentalities like yours are what keep people from reporting sexual assault, getting perpetrators locked up, and getting the help they need. The guilt and shame associated with sexual assault is not a game. You don’t realize the damage you’re doing to people.
He may not have articulated himself well, but Champ was not advocating for blaming the victim. As someone who has ACTUALLY been a “victim” (hate that word) as both a child and an adult, I was even able to see his real intention behind yesterday’s post.
Really because he singled out women who where 5’1 and 110 lbs and were partying with Patron… implying their actions are stupid (inherently) and would lead to rape… that is pretty much was he was insinuating and that women who got raped… ‘thumbed their nose at common sense.’ Those were his EXACT words.
“Of course men shouldn’t attempt to have sex with a woman who’s too drunk to say no, but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date? Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.”
Actually, those were his exact words and it still sounds like he’s more or less trying to say “be careful” and that these situations COULD lead to rape. Now, I’m not 5’1 or close to 110 pounds, but I know better than to take 8 shots of anything in an environment that I don’t feel 100% safe in.
Thank. you.
This is what he said: “…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.”
He is saying that Focusing on Educating Boys and Men = Giving Women ‘carte blanche’ to act STUPIDLY… and RECKLESSLY… and must have ACCOUNTABILITY for if they get raped.
I’m a little late to the party and have just read last night’s post, about half of the comments, and tonight’s post as well. I am…umm, overwhelmed, to say the least.
I will freely admit that I do not possess the distance that you displayed when it comes to the subject of rape. I don’t have that luxury, I suppose, as a woman, and a Black woman at that. I will look over the heads of the *many* women I know who have been molested, raped, brutalized; of all of the things I have seen and known since I was a very small child. I will only say this:
Dude, know your audience.
I love the written word. I always have and always will. I enjoy many of the things you post, even the awkward things, or the Woody-Allen-esque stuff, even though I don’t agree with much of it (ie the Red Tails post) or your particular point of view. But I do enjoy and am amused by your perspective, and the manner in which you display it.
Last night’s post was a clear exception. And I don’t think it was as simple as “you were out of your depth” on the subject. What saddens me most of all, I think, is a missed opportunity here…for a frank, ground-breaking conversation rather than an old, worn-out polarization slingfest.
Maybe this isn’t the platform for “very special episodes.”
“A single choice in one moment in time to use your voice, actions or choices to make one small corner of the world safer.” -http://www.livethegreendot.com
Check out the website for those who want to learn more or do more on violence prevention and awareness.
As for yesterday and today’s posts as well as the comments, make this a teachable moment. I read Champ’s post and immediately thought our resident loveable a$$ has just gone too far. I’m used to the writing, but knew it wouldn’t end well. I appreciate the post today because he really could have left it at the edit and called it a day. I think it takes a lot to own your opinions and interpretations even if they are unpopular. VSB is changing, the reach is different, and the nature of this as a place to talk amongst friends who understand nuances will likely change. Diversity of thought on a delicate topic and in a forum where there is a lot of room for misunderstanding is a challenge in itself.
I hope that everyone recognizes that VSB has been a safe place where a variety of thoughts have been expressed. Much of the method has been satirical. I’m not apologizing for the approach and don’t even really care to revisit the explosion of yesterday. If the style and content offended and hurt some to the point that they have completely lost confidence, it would make sense to stop reading. I just don’t think it’s productive at this point to continue in a combative vein because nothing is learned.
Yesterday’s post makes an implicit assumption that there are people who’ve been falsely accused of rape because the alleged victim had poor judgement or post-coital regret.
While it’s certainly possible this happens, the shame of being a rape victim is so overwhelming that false rape accusations are rare. In truth, most victims have to be convinced to press charges.
Writing a post in defense of the very rare falsely accused “raper” was callous.
I think some walked away with a bit more understanding. It’s a start in making things better, IMO. Not the most sensitive or smart way to start a needed discussion but it’ll have folks talking within their social groups for awhile about sexual violence, assault & its effects on a community as a whole.
I’m just mad my best late-night rejoinders got caught in moderation last night.
I sat on the sidelines yesterday in hopes to avoid the schrapnel.
Yesterday’s post reminds me of the landmine some of our political represenatives find themselves in; the feel that since they are “at home / around family”, they can do and or discuss topics that cause you to bristle but the audience knows the heart of the speaker and still loves them afterwards.
I think yesterday reminded us all of the balance we strive for when we discuss topics in mixed company. Champ, I applaud you for falling back to realize the impact or your words and the expansion of your audience while reminding the readership that we all may have thoughts and ideas that may be viewed as non-PC or insensitive and that’s never gonna stop as long as we have air to breathe.
well.. i still phucks with vsb.
while i understood the sentiment behind the piece, when i read it i said out loud “oh no he didn’t just say that….with vsb being largely female readers, this is about to be a sh** storm.”
As dudes there are some topics to which we need to leave well enough alone.
My friend you just stumbled into one of them. I could mention some others, but this is neither the time nor place.
But as with all things ya live and learn, ya move on……..
tis’ the circle of life…………..
Seemed like a good time for a large bran muffin. A purge was in order anyway.
New avenues and better vistas lie ahead. Godspeed Champ.
This is a blog and Champ is entitled to express his opinion. The BLOG is called Very Smart Brothas. Because of the title, there should be a level of intelligence that strives keep the bar high. This case should be no difference. This subject required intellect to understand the point being made beyond the choice of words being used to make it. I know Champ is no expert on the subject and so should you. He should be allowed to make an observation based on his life experiences. I would hope that topics like this would allow everyone involved to help raise our level by replacing hearsay with fact, because we all bring a different knowledge base based on our own experiences. For the record, I do not think Champ owes anyone an apology for his opinion.
Nor do I.
Nor do I. Yesterday’s discussions are the reason I read this blog. The “fluff” gets more than a bit tiresome. Why not discuss things that are difficult to discuss? This is the perfect forum for it. You don’t have to be a rape expert, or delve into all complexities of an issue to have an opinion. And all voices should be heard. I think they were. That is a success.
Riiiiiiiiggghhhhht, no. The democracy of ideas is BS. Not everyone’s opinion is equal and valid. Not all questions are good questions. Not all solutions are viable. Yes, you actual have to delve into the complexities of issues if you actually want to get anywhere with the discussion.
So you’ll keep us notified of whose opinions are equal, valid, and viable?
I didn’t know the goal was to “get somewhere” with the conversation. Sometimes the journey is good enough. We certainly don’t discuss the democratization of ideas when referencing lighter topics like Common’s use of “the b-word”, etc… Must one be a “Common-expert” to have and voice an opinion on Common? It was what it was–a thought provoking conversation that a lot of people felt passionately enough about to comment. There is power in that; and therefore no apology necesary in my opinion.
If the discussion is about someone’s music, it would help to actually be familiar with their music. Someone who’s listened to Common’s entire discography opinion is worth more than someone who has heard a couple songs.
If the average man, upon hearing the statistic that 8%-12% of men commit sexually violent acts, immediately feels defensive out of a desire to not be lumped in with that group, imagine how women feel when they hear the statistic that one third of us will experience sexual violence. I believe that our culture does such a poor job of approaching sexuality and sexual violence that the lines between the two get blurred, and many men worry that inept sexuality will someday be termed sexual violence and predators hide behind our culture’s squeamishness to cast their violence as sexuality.
I think we need to start with drawing a clear and solid line between sexuality and crime that is sexual. Everyone needs to know the difference. And, from there, we can start educating our young people.
I think what you were advocating for was good, solid, multi-phase/level, comprehensive sex education. We need parents, grandparents, schools, churches, and youth organizations to be modeling and reinforcing the notion of sexual responsibility for everyone. We need children to grow up understanding not just HOW their bodies work, but have the words to be able to honestly articulate their feelings, interests, and desires with their mates.
And, we need a culture, armed with a clear understanding between sexuality and crime, that will respond appropriately to the offenders and victims, regardless of their power, wealth, gender, age, or influence.
I log into this blog daily knowing the topic may be offensive to me, irrelevant to me (NBA preview -_-), angering to me, intriguing or fun. I think that’s what makes a site like this good. I don’t think being offended is a reason to never come back, but obviously it’s every person’s choice.
We don’t have to agree. You tackle a heavy topic and you’re going to get heavy responses. I thought we would be talking about the SOTU address today…
“Send me a bill…”
ya know….. as i read more of yesterdays and today’s comments i grow more irritated.
I’m instantly reminded of conversations with my white co-workers when we discuss race. they’ll have some legitimate concerns and questions that I could very well enlighten them on, but I can’t get to the red meat of it because they’re so worried about offending me or sounding racist, that they tip toe and won’t speak their minds.
so much of what ails mankind could be addressed if we could lose this PC uber- sensitive vibe, grow a pair and just say what the hell we mean.
damnit! how do you understand the soul of a person if you can’t talk about religion, race, sex and all things touchy.
I take back what i said in my previous post…..I COMMEND YOU CHAMP!
we are so called very smart people, do we not have the intellectual and testicular fortitude to go into this?
“they’re so worried about offending me or sounding racist, that they tip toe and won’t speak their minds.”
So feeling you on this point. This is what happens when your emotions incite you to discuss *at* the “opposition.” Nobody “wins,” unless the real battle is to simply maintain moral high ground, or to just force the opposition to feel sh*tty and never want to talk to you again.
Except that you know…
The civil rights movement was won by:
1.) Shaming tactics like marches, sit ins, and other demonstrations that forced white people to deal with them.
2.) Economic tactics. Boycotts, etc. (It was suggested earlier that boycotting this website was a ‘dumb’ idea and wouldn’t change anything. I disagree and support those who do not want to read from Champ anymore… when his readership and hence pocketboot drops he will know what he said had consequences.)
First, I give props to all of those that sat out yesterday. You people are smarter than me. Second, I wanna call out all of those White Knight co-dependent Captain Save-a-H0e ninjas from yesterday. Really dog, getting your self-worth from fixing someone else’s pain makes you just as controlling as some of these abusive dudes out there. At least the abusers are open with their plan. You guys are so busy trying to look good that all you are is evil and manipulative.
Champ, as someone who wrote a weekly newspaper column for a particularly controversial newspaper in college, I feel your pain. As someone whose other online haunt is a support group for the loved ones of people with Borderline Personality Disorder, I feel the pain of the many triggered yesterday. The key when writing about something with the potential to be controversial is to make sure your writing is tight. Get your facts straight, and polish as much ambiguity out of your writing as possible. You won’t not trigger people. Walking on Eggshells while writing isn’t going to hack it. However, you have the potential to educate and inform people once they get off the ledge.
Good luck, and keep at it playa. Besides, to paraphrase Marshall McLuhan, the new masters of media will be intelligent and light-hearted. Media easily masters the grim and the dumb.
” First, I give props to all of those that sat out yesterday. You people are smarter than me. Second, I wanna call out all of those White Knight co-dependent Captain Save-a-H0e ninjas from yesterday. Really dog, getting your self-worth from fixing someone else’s pain makes you just as controlling as some of these abusive dudes out there. At least the abusers are open with their plan. You guys are so busy trying to look good that all you are is evil and manipulative.”
OMG! Dude they were KILLIN ME! But to be honest, I’ve seen patterns over the year or so I’ve been comin to this site, and I expected it from certain ones…it’s really sickening, like do you have ANY opinion that isn’t a regurgitated female opinion? Reminds me of the good negroes tryna please massa and I’m just as repulsed by it. It won’t help you or the rest of us so what’s your point dude? “At least the abusers are open with their plan. You guys are so busy trying to look good that all you are is evil and manipulative.” Exactly. So d*mn transparent it’s a shame. Glad you called em out cause I thought I was the only one that noticed it and almost vomited.
Some men arent mentally ill. Amazing, but true. Just because you two are blinded by anger at women due to your past doesnt make mature healthy men panderers. They are men with their own opinions that differ from the female point of view often. But they are healthy and mature enough to see women as full human beings who deserve respect. Instead of being mad at them, talk to them, listen and try to learn.
Did you read where yesterday was triggering for me due to specific incidents in my past?
Mmm…yeah, you’re bringing it back.
I’m doing the dip. See ya Thursday. Click on my link if you really wanna holla.
Co-opting language. #nooneisfooled
we call those dudes pu$$y panderers
and their motives are just as nefarious as them dudes who just physically takes what they want……….
I think most of the men in agreement with the women yesterday were being sincere in their support. As for those that were not…p*ssy panderers are people too.
I see where you are coming from, but that’s a very dangerous and presumptuous accusation. These guys could have a loved one who had been raped. These guys could have experienced the sense of powerlessness that comes from wishing they could have been there to stop it. In addition to that, they could have been sexually assaulted themselves.
That’s what I was thinking as I was reading yesterday.
Excellent point, and I will definitely take it under advisement. What is interesting though is that some people did come out and say it, while others didn’t. Good addition though.
this. i once had a stranger tell me about how she and her friend were forced into having sex with a bunch of dudes in one of the big BGLOs, how she got to the party and realized it was just she and her girl there, and the Alphas or the Omegas or whomever blocked the door. And how she could never tell anyone.
There were lots of cats in that room when it happened. so why didn’t any of the dudes step in and stop it? or report it later? This is, i think, why and how dudes voices matter in these convos. This is what people say when dudes should be educated about rape.
I mean, look. I grew up in a sh*tty neighborhood, in which people got jumped all the time. whether you were with your boys. whether you were by yourself. I’ve joked that no one in my high school got detention because they were trying to be on their best behavior…they were trying to avoid having to walk the five Northy Philly blocks to the subway by their lonesome, without the protection of the mass of kids making the same trip. And I’ve seen cops eff with dudes for nothing, literally just because they could. And then go on about their day while some dude is fuming and violated and without recourse. (you gon’ call the cops on the cops?)
there was a dude here in Brooklyn two weeks ago who was killed by police in his own home. They said he had a gun. his wife said he got up and thought someone was breaking into their crib. The story in the paper the next day was about how he was an armed thug. we know how it goes.
It’s not a big intellectual jump, then, to see that my safety as a black man (my very cautious interactions with police officers, etc.) is similar to (but very different) from the way so many women feel about their own physical safety.
That control doesn’t really exist if someone wants to do you harm.
If you want to engage in a respectful conversation, then you should recognize that some voices in that conversation should be privileged over others. Every conversation, in every case, isn’t for everyone, and contrary to what lots of the dudes in that convo were saying yesterday, every opinion isn’t a valid one. Or at the very least, you don’t reserve the right to offer an opinion in a public space without someone pushing back on it.
good luck to y’all.
“why didn’t any of the dudes step in and stop it? or report it later? This is, i think, why and how dudes voices matter in these convos. This is what people say when dudes should be educated about r.ape. ”
IMO, that’s the ultimate benefit of educating men. The large majority of men who are not r.apists will hopefully be willing to speak out against the violence. I doubt the average guy ever contemplates the idea of one of his friends or associates being a r.apist. I, personally, don’t believe that a guy who has the desire to r.ape (probably caused by his own personal trauma or abuse) will be affected by education. No more than education on effects of ped0phil!a would help a child m0lestor.
This. Let’s try and reach the ones that can be reached and put an end to the ones that can’t.
But educating dudes about rape isn’t just about the act of rape itself — it’s about changing the conversations around rapes and culpability, and helping to create an environment where more people who are survivors feel like they can come forward without being demonized. Lots of women in the thread yesterday knew that if they came forward, every decision they made — not just the nights of their attacks but in their entire lives — would come under scrutiny, would be up for dissection. People do this thing in which they dismissed rape survivors’ testimonies because it comes to light that she cheated on a boyfriend or an exam, and you know, how can her word be trusted?? For a lot of people, male and female, rape survivors are only worthy of our empathy if they’re perfect victims.
There were cats in that thread yesterday who were basically saying that there were some cases in which women were too far down the road to withdraw consent. Seriously, one cat said that if you were butt naked and you were getting head from a dude, that you can’t really expect some people to stop there. B
Are these cats rapists themselves? Probably not. Are they part of a larger problem around how we discuss rape? That seems to be pretty clear. Their position seems to be that men are just a bunch of highly organized responses to stimuli — like sharks that dart toward blood in the water — that men have no capacity to be human beings once a woman is naked. It puts all the responsibility for boundary setting and policing on women. (This is the problem with the “men are going to be men” idea, but that’s prolly another convo.)
“This is, i think, why and how dudes voices matter in these convos. This is what people say when dudes should be educated about rape.”
I am with you 100% here. I think where we may differ is how and how not to accomplish this. I would add that in addition to educating them about it, start encouraging correct action. I think the most potentially effective male target audience is getting tired of being told they don’t understand enough about rape, just as diligent women are getting tired of being told to be more diligent.
hmmm. where we differ is that i don’t think it’s crazy to say 1) as a dude, your role in stemming this/changing the culture is vital and 2) other voices/emotions should take primacy over yours in these conversations. Those things can be true at the same time.
I’ve had tons of conversations with dudes — dudes I respect and consider friends — who would get defensive when they’re told they’re wrong about the way rape happens. One of my boys said that if his girlfriend was drunk, wearing a short skirt and high heels in East New York at 3 in the morning, that anything that happened to her was her fault. And we got into it (in a totally inappropriate setting) because he didn’t want to be told that that’s essentially blaming her.
i don’t think it’s asking for much that people come to the conversation with some humility, that their half-considered hypotheticals on power and control are real life for some folks.
I am happy that you had that conversation with your friend. He is at least aware now that a credible male peer understands that a victim doesn’t deserve to be assaulted.
I assumed that most guys understand that part. Unfortunately, that may not be the case. That’s not good.
I’d interpret that as him being upset and vengeful about her going out at night dressed in a sexy way. Then the real issue (linked to common attitudes about sexual assault) is how much his disdain of her overrides his caring about her. I mean if my child sticks his hand on a hot stove after I told him not to, I’m not going to tell him “mm, hm, see what you get”. I’m kissing him, wrapping his hand and telling him, when it’s time, “please no more touching the stove, or the iron, etc.”
~~~”where we differ is that i don’t think it’s crazy to say 1) as a dude, your role in stemming this/changing the culture is vital and 2) other voices/emotions should take primacy over yours in these conversations. ”
Have always agreed with #1, but assert that emotional lashing out discourages #1 from happening, thus, I differ with you on #2. #2 is part of a healing process, but isn’t enough to bring everyone on board, IMO.
I find your framing — “lashing out” — pretty interesting. I don’t think any of the survivors who took umbrage at the post were being all that histrionic or unreasonable. And you know, it’s hard to separate the way the survivors’ comments were responded to (or not responded to) from a larger context in which male voices are privileged over others.
What I mean is, there’s a reason why the dudes who were siding with the Champ — even with their CAPS LOCK flourishes,, exclamation points, whiney-ness and sarcasm — held that they were the ones who were “dispassionate” and “logical.” and the survivors were seen as “too close to the issue to discuss it rationally” and “lashing out.” None of this is new or novel. This is how it goes.
but rationality is a myth. Most people think that people whose emotional calculus and responses differs from theirs, whose experiences don’t truck with their own, simply don’t subscribe to /employ any logic.
We’d all do better to recognize our biases and myopia.
Be easy.
“I find your framing — “lashing out” — pretty interesting. I don’t think any of the survivors who took umbrage at the post were being all that histrionic or unreasonable. …What I mean is, there’s a reason why the dudes who were siding with the Champ — even with their CAPS LOCK flourishes,, exclamation points, whiney-ness and sarcasm — held that they were the ones who were “dispassionate” and “logical.” …”
When I used the term “lashing out” I was speaking from the vantage point of a woman at the receiving end of misdirected anger. I agree that not every man participating in the posts yesterday was logical or unbiased. Of the very few who posted at all, some said some downright ridiculous stuff. Pointing that out wasn’t going to solve any problems or help anybody heal for that matter, IMO.
I just re-read my response. “Alienation of the opposite gender via direct emotional attacks” would have expressed what I meant better than “lashing out.”
This comment I really felt and feel.
Some times as an individual, you just gotta know when your opinion is absolutely and utterly worthless. You gotta know that, though you have opinions on everything, not every one of your opinions is of value to everybody and sometimes, on some issues, other people’s opinions hold more weight than your own.
I had an opinion after I read yesterday’s post. I was secure in my opinion. But I also knew that I don’t really know much about the subject and probably shouldn’t just throw my opinion in for the sake of it. Then I read through the comments and realized just how misinformed I actually was. I left yesterday’s post educated, with a new more evolved opinion. I’m glad I didn’t dive right in, throwing my opinion around just because I could, but I’m also glad some people did because it lead to enlightened responses from which I learned even more.
I appreciate the folks who were strong enough to detail their sexual abuse. It changed my perspective and I’m sure it did for many others who are lurking behind the scenes as well.
This is one of those posts that you write thinking it’ll be important for one reason, and then it becomes important for an entirely different reason. So in that sense, it’s valuable. I hope the wounds it opened for some are at least a little soothed by the fact that those wounds and the insight that comes with them helped speed up the evolution of some of our perspectives.
This comment is what I mean about education. If there are only even a few more like you, then the post was worth it imo.
Thanks for posting that. I don’t think you know how much I and perhaps some others needed to hear that.
seriously.
I haven’t commented or been around in a looooooooong time, but I must say that the conversation happening here (particularly with Mo-VSS, Misty Knight, Royale, Most Interesting, and G.D.) have been really, really enlightening and encouraging. Thank you all.
” It’s not a big intellectual jump, then, to see that my safety as a black man (my very cautious interactions with police officers, etc.) is similar to (but very different) from the way so many women feel about their own physical safety.”
I appreciate that you shared this awareness here.
W-O-W insensitive much?!?!? Know your audience much?!?!?
Yesterday’s post and today’s follow-up post makes me think of a statement my Grandmother would say “People always are insensitive and callous towards the plight of others until that same s@*!y circumstance hits their own backyard”.
SMH!!
I appreciate your decision to openly express what you’ve assessed from yesterday’s posts. I wouldn’t be surprised if many commenters also did a quick reassessment of their views and how they handled dissenting views.
If your goal was to gain new, more diverse, readers, I really don’t believe all is lost. If there ever is a place for grown people, who consider themselves smart, or at least of average intelligence, to openly discuss a controversial topic that might too easily offend folks with limited discernment or emotional intelligence, this here is the place.
There is no reason to assume that grown people couldn’t handle yesterday’s topic, at least not a legitimate one…despite the readers having to aggressively parse out valid points through layers of condescension, crude labeling and name calling.
We can all stand to be less arrogant and more willing to consider how our words affect others…while still making it a goal to gain a better sense of challenging topics and solutions to those topics.
“We can all stand to be less arrogant and more willing to consider how our words affect others…”
agreed.
I appreciate you admiting that you were biased reading the article.
However, you know you didn’t apologize, you just “responded” to the masses.
I guess that’s beneath you? I would have never have thought so.
Still a brilliant writer you are, just with an ego/pride that may be “checked” in the future, so watch for it luv
Agreed
I read the post yesterday and some of the comments and knew I couldn’t sit through it. That’s when I dipped. Rape post would’ve just raised my blood pressure and got me in a tizzy, shoot I had a doctor’s appt later that day. I did however read lots of the comments in the evening and they weren’t as horrible as other comments about rape that I have read before. (For Example: What’s the big deal about rape anyway, I’ve been kicked in the nuts before and I got over it.) However, I did feel that folks def weren’t sensitive enough, esp the post. So, what’s the takeaway, Idk, but if I wanna preserve my sanity I need to stay outta discussions about rape that doesn’t dismiss or isn’t sensitive to the trauma of victims.
hey vsb,
im kinda glad i was unplugged from social media and recuperating yesterday.
there are topics that politicians won’t touch because it’s too incendiary. and there are topics that i just can’t read about and wrestle with writing about myself because it is an emotional issue and goes to the heart of what is it to be a woman in a man’s world.
i think you hit the nail on the head that with more readers, comes more power and therefore more responsibility. the way you wrote (and reasons for it) have changed from the days of the original VSB OG’s.
hopefully there was good & positive information in either the post or the comments that people can actually learn from. based on this follow up post – the writers themselves learned a valuable lesson as well.
ok why do we have the same first and last name? lmao.
i was here 1st! get your own name! LOL
(although, yours are probably real. mine is just an e-alias)
well my full first name isn’t kiesha but close enough lol.
I notice that whenever there is discussion of violent crime committed against another, a lot of people’s defense mechanisms come in to play. “It could never happen to me/my loved ones.” Read any story about murder, rape, robbery, etc on your local news websites and then read the comments. You’ll find a lot of comments from people discussing what the victim did wrong, how they’d NEVER do those things, therefore said crime would never happen to them. Nobody wants to believe that something bad could ever happen to them or their loved ones…that’s where all these so-called preventative measures come from…we want to think that we have some control when sometimes we just don’t.
We still love you champ *waves lighter in the air*
“I really don’t want anyone to think that today’s piece and yesterday’s mid-morning edit are me back-tracking or trying to elicit any sympathy.”
The ability to listen to and understand a new perspective, internalize it, and either adopt or reject it is an indication of intelligence and maturity. When we know better, we should do better. It both amazes and disturbs me that so many people have labelled this capacity for growth as “back-tracking”. To continue with a course of action simply because it was your initial course of action inspite of learning that it is ill advised is simply unwise and immature. Keep doing what you do, be true to yourself, and continue to be open to growth. Everything else will simply be what it is.
big up caballeroso. a lack of reading conprehension and logic, muffled by emotional projection is the reason people “got offended” . i understood what he was trying to say. frankly champ shouldnt have to apologize. this is supposed to be vss/vsb land. lets stay up on the “s”, and leave personal biases out of the equation
“To continue with a course of action simply because it was your initial course of action inspite of learning that it is ill advised is simply unwise and immature.”
Love that and agreed. All of this.
I didn’t read the entire post yesterday because of the subject matter. The title looked like it might be offensive to me, so instead of continuing to read and get pissed off, I closed my window. This subject is extremely sensitive for me, being a survivor. I am absolutely, 100% biased when it comes to this. If what you have to say sounds anything like victim-blaming or insensitivity, you will get cursed out. Of course people have the right to voice their opinions, but unless you have been through something like this, you will NEVER understand the emotion that goes along with it.
@ Shay
I’m very sorry for your pain and happy you survived it.
“This subject is extremely sensitive for me, being a survivor. I am absolutely, 100% biased when it comes to this. If what you have to say sounds anything like victim-blaming or insensitivity, you will get cursed out.”
I think this was the mentality of a lot of people yesterday. And I think that stifled what he was trying to say.
Now although I don’t know him, I’m gonna go out on the limb and say that Champ is not a rapist. And he was not advocating rape. But because people are so emotionally stirred up by this subject, they didn’t even listen to what he was trying to say. Because to them, if it even sounded like victim blaming or insensitivity, rage and the urge to fight and protect came out in full force.
I don’t think anyone said he was advocating rape. People listened to what he was trying to say…and didn’t agree. What is it with men where you don’t think you can EVER be wrong? EVERYBODY else just “misconstrued” what you said. Sometimes you’re just wrong. Get over it.
Actually, I’m a girl.
“I don’t think anyone said he was advocating rape.”
If that’s the case, then why were so many people who shared Champ’s point of view called ‘rapists’? They were saying the same thing he was.
My point is that the raw emotion that people had (rightly so) took away from the discussion. Because some people were so 100% biased on the side of rape victims, they didn’t even listen to what Champ said.
I didn’t know “so many” were called rapists but one of the ones who was expressed confusion about what constitutes rape, and an apologetic sentiment toward men who rape.
Champ’s points weren’t lost, people just don’t agree with the sentiment of Rape Responsibility. Why can’t people be okay with that?
If my memory serves me correctly, at least 3 people were called rapists yesterday.
“Champ’s points weren’t lost, people just don’t agree with the sentiment of Rape Responsibility. Why can’t people be okay with that?”
Because people who veered on the side perceived as “100% biased towards rape victims” didn’t say that Champ’s points weren’t lost. They didn’t even acknowledge that his post had any validity at all. They just became VERY angry.
Also, its not as if people simply disagreed. Some were called names, like the aforementioned ‘rapists’ moniker, one guy was told something about his ‘Simple Azz’, another was told to ‘shut the he(ck) up’, and Champ was told outright, ‘F%$^ you’.
This wasn’t a case of people simply disagreeing. This was a case of people disagreeing and then attempting to shame people who didn’t share their point of view.
That’s why I said that the raw emotion took away from what could have been an otherwise productive conversation.
This operates under the presumption that the sentiment is valid because it is sincere. It is not. It’s an old lazy technique to actually avoid talking about rape and rapists. And was called out on it using the exact same language. You ARE NOT going to have a productive conversation regarding it because people already do that. You don’t argue that to reduce crime people should more readily look up their living space so intruders don’t get it. People already lock their windows, doors, etc. Just as women are ALREADY cognizant of their surroundings. Guess what, homes still get burgled and women still get raped. It’s an asinine non-position that is extremely problematic should be treated as such.
You’re contradicting yourself. Either Champ’s points were valid or they weren’t. If they were, at the very least they should have been acknowledged.
If they weren’t, then how do you claim that “women are ALREADY cognizant of their surroundings”? Which is exactly what Champ was trying to say…
And in all sincerity, I don’t think he was referring to women who were in “low-risk” environments when they were assaulted. I believe he was referring to some women who placed themselves in “high-risk” environments. I work closely with a rape victim’s advocacy group, and when speaking with a co-worker, she told me that rape is never the victim’s fault. But in some scenarios, the victim didn’t use good judgment. I believe Champ’s post was directed to women who WEREN’T victims of rape, but to those who could use good judgment to reduce the likelihood of placing themselves in “high-risk” situations.
Look at the Natalee Holloway case. Was her probable rape and murder (I say probable because they haven’t found her body to confirm)
her own fault? Absolutely NOT!!! But did she employ good judgment by consuming alcohol and getting into a car with 3 strange men? I’m sorry to say she didn’t. If she had practiced better judgment, could she still be alive today? Its possible.
Its NEVER the rape victim’s fault, and I don’t sympathize with rape apologists. I’m not that callous of a person that my heart doesn’t break when I hear stories of survivors. And I’m not that depraved of a person to think that its the victim’s fault or that he/she deserved it.
Alladis.
There is no contradiction. The point was not valid. Discussing outliers is not productive. Most women are raped by people they know. Using the extreme example of getting sh!tfaced and in the car of three random men is not conducive to a productive or valuable discussion on rape. I’ve explained this 18 different times between today and yesterday. I do not understand what people continue to not understand.
As women, by simply existing, we run the risk of being a victim of sexual assault. Whether the stats are 1 out of 5, or 1 out of 4 or 3, the fact remains that we roll the dice by simply being alive. By going to work, staying at home, hanging out with friends, going to a party, traveling abroad, reading a book…etc, there are countless scenarios in which we could be victimized. Its by chance that we are or aren’t raped. A lot of us who haven’t been raped can only attribute that to luck. We aren’t smarter, wiser or better than rape victims, just luckier.
And I don’t mean to suggest that there’s a 100% way of preventing a rape. As I’ve already stated, its a roll of the dice.
I doubt he was speaking to actual victims of rape, because they don’t really need anyone telling them what they coulda, shoulda, woulda done. They’re going to play that event over in their minds for as long as they live. They’re going to keep blaming themselves. They’re already suffering and grieving because someone thought they could do what they wanted with them, no matter how much pain and heartache it would cause.
Its been established that a lot of rapes are committed by people that the victim knew. But what if some rapes were committed because the victim exercised poor judgment? Even if its only 1 or 2% of all rapes cases ever.
In my opinion, Champ’s post yesterday was targeted towards women who AREN’T rape victims, and the little they can do to reduce the likelihood of placing themselves in “high-risk” situations.
I don’t believe it was directed towards victims and how careless they were in allowing themselves to be raped.
And I think I finally get why people are so upset. Champ didn’t explicitly address who his audience was, and he didn’t choose his words carefully. He used a broad brush to illustrate a small percentage of rape cases…
…I kind of get it now…
” He used a broad brush to illustrate a small percentage of rape cases…”
You got it.
*ADDENDUM*
For me, the yesterday’s post was an “I like you. I don’t want to NOT like you. I don’t know what this post is going to read, I don’t want to be offended so I won’t read it because I like you” kind of thing.
“Systems of oppression cannot thrive without the active participation of those who are oppressed. Nothing illustrates that better than the women who are coming to VSB’s defense.” (c) a very, very smart woman i know.
100% accurate.
the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.
Yes. Eww- I’m so disgusted by women always jumping on effed up bandwagons to get high fives from socially retarded weirdos. I just weep for these women. That’s a terribly sad little existence to live.
Why Brokey McP is one of my innanets crushes.
Champ,
You had nothing to apologize for. the message was clear and concise. Men and Women need to be taught how to be men and women. If there was backlash, Im guessin it was due to projection. Men shouldnt get pissy drunk cause we all know what testoserone does for them. Women shouldnt expect said men not to oggle at them if they’re rocking pants that are adorned with “juicy” in old english print while downing multiple shots. Any sane person can tell you that pheromones and alcohol are a quick recipe for carnal ignance
With that being said, educating both sexes about biology solves a lot of these issues that have been plaguing us for 200 thousand some years.
Peace
loud & wrong.
sigh.
i could take 1 road and walk away. or take the other and attempt to dispel the ignorance of this comment. you know i can get raped no matter what im wearing because 90% of the time, sexual assualt is about power and not sex right?
i’m walking away now
*whistles craig david
in no way dis i advocate that rapers will be rapers. i was simpy implying that more education on the topic is necessary for both sexes to act in a responsible fashion. do men rape yes. are women victims yes. lets not make assumptions about being loud when i was simply stationgy opinion. if i offended, i dont apologize.
rapers will be rapers. please dont be so quick to dismiss my original message. the message is that, the actions that lead to rape are brought on by males who have a chemical inbalance and a uncontrollable sexual urge. all i was trying to communicate is that Both men and women should be better educated on the subtle nuances of perceived sexual messages conveyed through apperarance. if i am still deemed as igorant then so be it.
Rape is not brought on by an irresistible sexual urge. You would benefit from readin about rape. You are horribly uninformed.
i give up cause reading comprehension seems to escape. never did i say it was the sole purpose . it is one of msny reasons. if i dont list all the symptoms it makes me ignorant? again critical thinking is key
you can have opinion about a topic.
but your opinion does NOT equal facts.
me? i have a degree in crim, volunteered for a rape crisis centre and have been a victim despite said degrees and knowledge. so miss me with chemical imbalance.
im not offended by your opinion. i dont care enough about you or it to be offended.
i just recognize that you and the way you think is the reason why criminal justice systems in north america took so long to recognize that husbands can indeed rape their wives. and why 90%+ cases of assault go unreported.
but thanks for playing.
projection
projection?
ok.
there are days when engaging deliberately incendiary comments can be fun.
today is not one of those days and you are not one of those people.
come back with some real information.
“Women shouldnt expect said men not to oggle at them if they’re rocking pants that are adorned with “juicy” in old english print while downing multiple shots. Any sane person can tell you that pheromones and alcohol are a quick recipe for carnal ignance”
Now this is just complete nonsense. How the fck does what a woman is wearing have anything to do with exciting some drunken rapist’s pheromone response? Women in full burkas get raped too you know. Just for walking down the street.
(signs you up for a class ASAP)
what a woman wears shouldnt have affect a mans actions. unfortunately it does. im not saying women should change their wardrobe. im simply stating that a womans appearance affects a mans actions. i thought this was common knowledge.
If you’re not telling women they should change their wardrobe then what are you telling them with that common knowledge you just dropped?
This is what many of the women yesterday were talking about as part of placing blame on the victims of rape (even though they also included alcohol consumption which I don’t think falls under that).
While you can control both how you dress and how much you drink, one doesn’t impair your judgment and should have no relevance on how safe you are in certain situation. And neither excuses a man taking something that he has no right to.
apparently i havent made myself clear. alcohol affects judgement. if you dont “believe” that. i cant help you. vile individuals will be vile whether drunk or sober. the original post was meant to point that alcohol affects judgement male AND female. there seems to be a reocurring theme suggesting that i am saying whatever you think i am saying. please read again and understand that projection, like alcohol affects reading comprehension. if anyone was a victim of the horrible crime called rape, no one on this blog is saying they deserved it, nor that they brought it onto themselves. as i stated earlier, education to both sexes about the effects of alcohol was what was being alluded to
I said ONE of those things doesn’t impair your judgment. Why would you think I meant alcohol? Does that even make sense?
So yeah, that theme you think you see is right there in your own comment.
My two (I missed the post yesterday):
For one, NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED, but ignoring the fact that reckless action (in Champ’s example skimpy clothes and lots of alcohol) increases the likelihood of it happening is just irresponsible. Yes, I’m aware that some men will attempt to rape a woman even if she’s wearing a space suit. But let’s not pretend that exposed flesh and complete loss of inhibition can’t be a motivating factor.
For the record, you’re grown. No one can tell you what to wear, but at least be aware that what you wear can bring the wrong kind of attention from a certain kind of person. That’s certainly not your fault. And it’s unfortunate that we even have to have this discussion.
But it’s reality.
Damn. Replied when I meant to post a new comment.
ok. that scantily-clad random assaults are not the rule, but the exception means nothing right?
oh ok.
we need to get out of rape stereotypes. it’s dangerous.
i can be as careful as i want to be, but yet its easier to place the onus and responsibility on how i should dress as opposed to teaching right and wrong to men? am i saying that i have NO responsibility? absolutely not. but in many war-torn countries, you think the rape of women is about how she is dressed? no. it’s about shaming the women and their men. it’s about power and control of a group of people.
i really think people need to google and research before they speak sometimes. your opinion is your opinion. but if you were to ever be in a room full of victims/survivors – they aren’t just hot chicks who dressed provocatively. nothing can be further from the truth.
“ok. that scantily-clad random assaults are not the rule, but the exception means nothing right? oh ok.”
^Doing too much. At no point did I say that running around in skimpy clothes is the ONLY way to get raped. Of course it isn’t. I only said that it can be a motivating factor. Please do not put words in my mouth.
But, let’s try this another way:
Say for instance I’m walking down some street in (insert whatever city) with a giant gold chain on my neck. Do you think I’d face an increased chance of being robbed versus someone that’s not wearing jewelry? I’d say so. Does that mean that I *deserved* to get robbed? Of course it doesn’t. Does not wearing jewelry at all guarantee that I will never be robbed? No.
But how I presented myself in that situation directly affected the chances that someone of unsavory character would notice, and attempt to take advantage of me. And it can work that same way for assault, rape, murder, or whatever else you want to throw in there.
What I took from Champ’s post was not him saying or implying he’d figure out how to prevent rape entirely, as that would totally absurd. In my view, he looked at ONE singular way that women in particular can decrease their chances of being raped and I think that’s valid.
Additionally, it’s painfully obvious that rape is wrong. No sane individual would argue otherwise. But like any other crime, people are going to do it anyway. With that thought in mind, looking at ways to minimize your chances of being victim is not the same thing as blaming you.
Prez said “Additionally, it’s painfully obvious that rape is wrong. No sane individual would argue otherwise. But like any other crime, people are going to do it anyway. With that thought in mind, looking at ways to minimize your chances of being victim is not the same thing as blaming you.”
Bullsh*t, that’s victim blaming! Or at least that’s what I learned yesterday…smh
@prez,
can we just agree to disagree?
you are a dude (i presume), who will never know the existence that at any day, night, by any person (stranger or otherwise), you might be assaulted just by sheer default of being a woman. (i do acknowledge that assaults on men do occur). my sex/body can be used as tool of violence against me.
the subway system here has poster that says to keep your ipods and electronic products out of view to avoid making yourself a target. cool. except by sheer default of having white cords run from your ears, you become a target of someone who wants what you have. so either you dont listen to it at all, you take self-defense classes or you dont take public transportation.
telling a woman that adjusting her life (her dress, her actions, her words) is not what is insulting. it’s the assumption that if she does all of these things, she is reducing her chances of being assaulted. which is false. as long as she dates men, she has a chance of being assaulted. as long as men are excused with ‘chemical imbalance’ and ‘hormonal drive based on her outfit’ or ‘he was drunk and mistook her cues’ – that is the bigger problem. for ALL of us.
prostitutes sell their bodies for a living. they do this by wearing skimpy outfits. they can still be legally assaulted whether we agree with their life choice or not.
people who never smoke a day in their lives, can still get lung cancer. people who have healthy lifestyles still contract deadly diseases. virgins still contract STD’s.
all i ask/wish is that we’d stop looking at the 1 side of rape/sexual assault. when a man is raped, he isn’t asked what he was wearing. because it’s not deemed valid. and it shouldn’t be here either.
@Keisha
I suppose we’ll have to. For one, my mother and sister were sexually assaulted so I while I may not know it all (and don’t claim to), I certainly know enough. Me being a man has little to do with it. The problem that I think you and many other like-minded people around here have is that your method of logic operates in extremes.
Where that fails is that you already take many common-sense security measures in your daily life and — call me skeptical — I highly doubt you wake up everyday and take to the streets bemoaning that “the man” is telling you what to do.
You don’t leave your purse around strangers. You keep your cash in a wallet and out of public view. You lock your house at night. Why? Because you being an intelligent individual know that simply relying on someone to not do something because it’s immoral (or illegal) is hardly an effective defense.
In fact, it’s downright naive.
The subway example you gave fits my point perfectly. An obvious point you missed is that you could just buy different headphones. That way robbers won’t immediately recognize that you’re carrying an iPod. It’s called risk mitigation.
Now, it’s certainly your right to use whatever headphones you want, but in using the white ones, you are accepting the the risk that comes along with that.
Again, because I don’t think this was clear the first time, no one is saying or implying that you should not dress a certain way. Live your life however you see fit. But whether **you choose to acknowledge it or not**, dressing provocatively can very well be a motivating factor for the wrong type of character. That said, I firmly believe that woman should be able to dress however she wants and not attract negative or worse, violent attention. But I recognize that it doesn’t always work that way
Being mindful of that doesn’t mean I’m victim blaming.
@prez,
im not sure where my logic is based on extremes.
all my comments today, have tried to convey that prevention is not the only part of the equation.
the government doesn’t want to teach sex education in schools, it wants to preach abstinence. you can tell kids until they are blue in the face, but that will not/does not prevent them from having sex. it’s only 1 part of the sexual education toolbox.
out of 100 SA cases, those that were caused by “women’s clothing” is low. this not extreme, simply fact. it’s a stereotype that has been beat over our heads since we were old enough to understand that our bodies hold a lot of power.
there was a situation that happened here recently. a girl was taken from a major intersection, driven to an apt in my neighbourhood and gang-raped by 6 men. (i should preface this allegedly as nothing has been proven in a court of law). what that told me, a person who takes the subway from downtown and lives here, that there are people hidden everywhere who will do bad and evil things. i have a job that has me out until 2-3am. i would normally just do my usual thing to get home, but after than came about, i decided that if it’s late enough, i’ll take a cab or call a friend. funny how 6 alleged criminals is going to cost me more money. do i resent it? a little. im smart and want to live my life. but should i tempt fate and be out late at night by myself? absolutely not.
that being said, break&enters, creepy peeping toms happen. friends, lover, husbands happen. fathers, uncles, brothers, cousins happen. where is the ‘prevent’ for those? where is the ‘responsibility’ then?
i personally think it’s irresponsible to take a very emotional, difficult topic, and ignore so many components and focus on just the 1.
@Keisha
“all my comments today, have tried to convey that prevention is not the only part of the equation.”
Which is great, because that’s exactly what I’ve been saying all day. How a woman dresses isn’t a cure-all for rape but I reject the notion that it in no way can be a contributing factor. That is simply not true.
“the government doesn’t want to teach sex education in school.s”
Where do you live? Because they certainly do where I’m from (PG County, MD). And the class is pretty thorough. From what I remember, we went over contraceptives, STD’s, consent vs. rape, reproduction….the whole nine.
“out of 100 SA cases, those that were caused by “women’s clothing” is low. this not extreme, simply fact”
This is the part where you supply a link that proves this statement to be fact and not something just pulled out of the air. Even if it is true, the fact that how a woman was dressed contributed to even one rape validates my entire argument. That is (again, for maybe the sixth time) that a woman’s clothing >CAN and SOMETIMES< is a motivating factor behind sexual assault. I maintain that there is nothing wrong with recognizing that, and that does not equate to victim blaming.
Last word is yours, I'm out.
@ Keisha,
I get what you were saying now! Thanks for the clarification.
Peace
“But how I presented myself in that situation directly affected the chances that someone of unsavory character would notice, and attempt to take advantage of me.”
i think what is being lost in translation is that apparently rape is different from other violent crimes because it really doesn’t matter in terms of how one presents themself, in any situation.
sort of the same way with catcalls, etc…but that’s another topic for another day #closingPandorasBox
@Jordan
No it doesn’t matter in every situation but it does matter in some.
thank you
“…but ignoring the fact…”
This is one of the major disconnects with this entire discussion. NO ONE is ignoring this fact.
Yes, teaching prevention is an important part. Teaching correct and effective prevention is even better. Dressing less provocatively might get you less attention than the woman standing next to you, but this does not sufficiently cover enough cases.
It’s as important to emphasize that a man is not entitled to your body, just as it’s important to dissuade ladies from dressing too provocatively, entering shady situations, etc. The two types of advice are complementary, not mutually exclusive. I think it would do the discussion some good to always make sure the two points are presented together.
See, I don’t think a woman (or man) can dress too provocatively. Clothes are clothes. And what one finds sexy the next one won’t. Some men would prefer you in a freakum dress and fck me pumps while another is drooling over some nice jeans a t-shirt. So I think appearance is too subjective of a thing to add to a discussion like this.
I agree, and at the same time, I’ve gone to bars with friends who wore the shorter skirts and the more cleavage bearing tops. Sometimes it’s me who dresses the most provocatively. Whoever wore those things invariably drew the most attention.
Just explaining why I use dressing less provocatively as part of my sexual assault prevention regime. I know it’s not enough, but I do believe it helps. All of the sociological discussions around causality and justification don’t do me much good when I’m in the field.
That doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate a good discussion, though. No, the way a woman dresses does not justify sexual assault. The issue of causality can be discussed at length and I’d probably end up agreeing to everything because lots of seemingly contradictory arguments are simultaneously true in real life.
” Whoever wore those things invariably drew the most attention” Yep. You know how often we (men) kick ourselves about being NATURALLY drawn to cleavage. I hate it, because marketers ALWAYS win with me when they use that, I hate the fact that I love it, but…I love it. I’m not that evolved to where I can ignore such awesomeness and I’m certainly not alone, that cleavage with a nice smile tends to trigger the halo effect for me. Good thing I’m not a rapist…oh wait, apparently I am, so King Jordan was right HIDE YOU KIDS!
” Just explaining why I use dressing less provocatively as part of my sexual assault prevention regime. I know it’s not enough, but I do believe it helps. All of the sociological discussions around causality and justification don’t do me much good when I’m in the field.”
Zactly, theory versus reality. Reality ftw. And I agree, even if it doesn’t help but a tiny bit, the fact that it helps makes it sound advice, just not enough. And none of us contended that it was enough….
Here’s what happens,
The sexual assault prevention co-facts: “A man is not entitled to your body” and “avoiding shady situations is effective” get ripped apart and modified…
“A man is not entitled to your body”…you mean no matter what? I mean come on, that then excuses all kinds of risky behavior on the victim’s part, encourages false rape allegations, etc.
“Avoid shady situations”…or else it’s the victim’s fault? I mean come on. That does not work 100% of the time. Let me tell you about the time it didn’t work, you insensitive @$$hole.
That is quite possibly the best recap of yesterday’s most inflammatory comments.
“Women shouldnt expect said men not to oggle at them if they’re rocking pants that are adorned with “juicy” in old english print while downing multiple shots. Any sane person can tell you that pheromones and alcohol are a quick recipe for carnal ignance”
Except when I’m ogled by drunk men (or sober ones, for that matter), I’m usually not wearing tight sweatpants or downing Jager shots. I’m either pushing a stroller, or holding hands with a friend, or walking down the street with my headphones blasting.
I was assaulted at ages 5, 14, and 17. No alcohol was involved in any of these incidents.
Most survivors, I suspect, will tell you the same, so anyone with sense should see why people would be offended by yesterday’s post.
exactly.
people need to stop focusing on the very low percentage of sexual assault cases and think about the vast majority. which like i’ll repeat until im blue in the face, have NOTHING to do with what the girl was wearing or drinking.
I wasn’t offended by Champ’s post but I do understand why some were.
I think people, like me for instance, focus on things we think we can control because rape is such an uncontrollable thing to happen to a person.
I truly feel that any little bit helps and I guess it also makes me feel that while I’m always vulnerable, I’m not completely helpless. I admit I have serious control issues and the thought of having no control no matter what I do scares the hell out of me. Maybe this fear leads me to believe in things that provide a false sense of protection. Me no know. Most of the comments from actual victims says that this is indeed the case.
But then what’s my alternative? I can’t think of one and it’s why I stand so hard by my position. That’s the place that all my comments have come from. Right or wrong.
It appears that you and I are drawing the same conclusions.
Better watch that. They say I’m crazy, you know.
I’ll take my chances
The alternative is help foster discussion that breaks down the stereotypes (many of which have been shown throughout this discussion) with not only women, but men as well. The alternative is to hear what victims have to say about their experience. Read about what perps had to say about their motivations, both internal and external motivating factors. Pass that knowledge along to others in any way you can.
Personally, I had no problem with the things you wrote (the comments of yours I had the opportunity to read) yesterday. The major issue across the board is putting out an opinion as fact (something Champ did) and then being upset when actual real life facts (in the form of experiences) entered the equation. Then it was…leave emotion out of it and focus on the small example of rape instances that Champ put forth. If I may take the liberty to say, that is what many of us found offensive.
You can only do what you can to protect yourself the best way you know how. You have boys…teach them how NOT to fall into the trap society sets for them by allowing men to believe women are the keepers of all things sexual in nature (included sex crimes). We aren’t.
Thank you Mo. I will take your suggestions to heart especially when it comes to doing more to make sure my boys will not fall into that trap.
No worries. Thanks for your response.
Dang… I missed all the fireworks! Going back to read yesterday’s post. Next time Champ, next time.
Okay Champ, Panama, et al… I read it and a lot of the comments. I’m glad you all had that discussion actually. It is better to actually have a discussion and express yourself than to avoid it and never have it. It was somewhat hurtful (hey, I was tearing up on some comments), but that doesn’t mean it should be avoided.
For a lot of ladies, as Panama reminded once, when something hits home maybe it is a good thing to be able to share and release. It helps many deal with painful memories and move on. I don’t think anyone should shy away from topics because they are controversial or difficult to deal with. Absolutely not. It helps a lot of us grow as conscientious human beings.
Just came back from yesterday’s post…If y’all hear that I died in a fire don’t believe them when they say I started it.
i appreciate the conversation and the attempt however, as a victim yesterdays post and comments just further cemented what i already knew about being a woman in today’s society and while thats sad, its not entirely your fault.
that being said i do believe that this is forum for these types of topics from time to time. I just hope the next time you do so with a little more caution, more research and preparation.
I appreciate your apology. (Maybe I was the only one who saw the lonely “I was wrong” right after your third paragraph.)
I appreciate your honesty and I think the important part of your response to yesterday’s reaction was that you felt you learned something regardless of what anyone said you need to learn. And some VSB/Ss also learned something from yesterday’s post, even if it was that there are more people in disagreement with their views on what rape and rape culture are. Hopefully we were all listening to those survivors who were brave enough to share their stories, those VSSs who felt that the VSBs weren’t empathetic enough to the subject matter and those VSBs who felt vilified by sweeping generalizations and MOVE FORWARD with that knowledge.
You know we’re not going to stop reading VSB until the font falls off this mutha. How else will we be able to let you know when you’re wrong?
In thinking about it some more, I realize that that post was an exercise in practicing the art of walking away. Clearly I failed to do that on the order of 30 times, but it taught me that it’s often better to walk away, in the face of ridiculouness on the internet.
Or at least, knowing when to walk away and when to negage. I’m kind of greatful for the post, in that regard.
My flame war kryptonite is when someone accuses me of saying or doing something I didn’t say or do, then triumphantly waxes grandiloquent about how terrible those words and actions are. I gotta learn how to walk away from straw man battles.
Yesterday’s was the first I had read on the site that actually upset me. I usually love the work here… I wont get into the debate of whether this was an apology or not. I respect this post. Thanks for sharing your self-reflections.
Lurker here. One sentence, given enough thought, would have led to this topic never being discussed in this way here: Know your audience. The thoughts articulated by Champ could have been introduced in a way more acceptable to the readers and would have probably elicited a totally different conversation. Truth be told though, I have been lurking on this site long enough to appreciate the writers’ styles, and this is classic Champ. I hope he doesn’t change too much after this.
Are the big kids aware that there is vast amount of nuances that can be had in a discussion rather than lumping everything either as “walking on eggshells” or saying objectively dumb things that have proven will result in very little progress? Anyone? Anywhere? Nope? We’re just going to pretend like those are the only two ways this conversation could have gone?
I don’t know about the big kids, but the adults are aware that calling something dumb because you don’t agree is childish. When you respond with namecalling, mis-interpreting and lashing out at someone for something they didn’t actually say….yeah you don’t even sound like a big kid any more, you sound like a toddler with an impressive vocabulary…
If a person is in their emotions over somebody else’s opinion(especially over the internet), then that opinion and reaction is the least of their problems.
Do whatever you got to do in order to get over yourselves.
why do people believe that words live in a vacuum? it’s just the internet, so why so serious?
books, music, movies can invoke emotion. e-words (and the e-people behind them) can do the same. and especially if you are in a small community and actually interact with people. last i checked, im not just a random avi. there is a real person with human emotions behind it. and the words that i type.
so how about instead of arrogantly telling people to get over themselves, you think about that?
People are always willing to laugh and commiserate with contentious posts as long as they don’t hit too close to home.
“I do not apologize for possessing the feeling I was attempting to convey.” I got sad again at this line. thanks for this post. it shows real heart that you responded but to be unapologetic within an apology is kinda heartless.
Still feel like most commenters who felt they were “attacked” yesterday still don’t get it… and that’s frightening. It’s pretty simple. Original article acknowledged the advice we give women on “common sense” in protecting themselves and said that IN ADDITION to educating women, men must be educated because clearly women employing all these common sense tactics are still being raped (do y’all get that educating men IN ADDITION to women does not equal a blank check for women to do as they please? it’s about adding MORE to the arsenal against rapists, adding men as PARTNERS in stopping rapes… it’s sick that you see a call to step up and stand beside women as an attack).
You all were responding to something that the original article did not state, an attack that simply didn’t happen, a total wiping out of individual responsibility for women that simply was not advocated. You responded to call to action for men AND women with, “Well women just don’t want to do shit. They’re always victims.” THAT says more about how you feel about women than anything else. I don’t understand how you all still don’t get that? The original article didn’t have anything in there that you all should have objected to (based on your comments), but you see every single instance of calls for accountability as attacks. That’s a problem… with you. It’s like talking to a white person about racism and their response is, “Well, black people are racist, too!” How does that further the conversation? It doesn’t. If you’re not looking to add to the discussion and just want high-fives, go for it, but STAND ON THAT. Stop trying to act like you were looking for understanding and common ground. You were looking to defend yourself against an attack that did not exist in the original article and were patting yourselves on the back for being brave enough to be… illiterate and assholes. On the internet, those things don’t take much bravery. Good job… I guess.
Thanks Sassy for that refreshing clarification. I think with all issues that are deemed “controversial”, the perceived narrative is up to the reader. I didn’t see at the moment why what Champ said was deemed controversial. I was trying to explain upthread that reader comprehension can lead to very different views on said topic.
I’m a woman, (with male tendencies, no lesbo) a blogger, a survivor, an unapologetic heaux, an arrogant loud mouth bitch that loves an argument. So I have mixed feelings about today’s um “apology”. We fcuk up sometimes. When you have a big audience, your fcuk up is big and seen be many. I’ve done it with my tiny audience and I had to check myself, so I get how that feels.
That post opened a wound. The comments poured salt in it. I’m not so hurt that I’m going away. I’m a tough b!tch. I fight.
I wasn’t surprised Champ wrote the post. There’s been a theme in his advice to women on the Madam Noire site. Basically “dumb b!tch, you shoulda known better”. There is often little nuance or attention payed to the details of the question.
A lot of people in the black community subscribe to the “dumb b!tch, you shoulda known better” line of reasoning. It gets applauded as logical, pragmatic, obvious. It’s simplistic, intellectually lazy and often wrong.
It feels good to blame the victim. It’s satisfying. It makes us feel smart. And safe because we can trick ourselves into believing it would never happen to us or anyone we care about, because we can clearly see where those “dumb b!tches” went wrong. We would never fall victim to that. We are smart and safe.
If you need that for your world to rest securely on its imaginary axis, do you. We all gotta have something. We all need a crutch to keep seeing the matrix, cause erasing it ain’t an option were willing to face. I get it. Just be careful not to hurt the ones who found out about the lie the hard way. The lie that you can be smart enough not to be a victim.
How do I retweet this?
Amen.
I need this comment to be plastered far and wide.
@WC: It has become easy to write most of your comments off as “here’s bitter b!tch male bashing again”. It is refreshing to read this post of yours because it actually provides some insight. Through this, I am finally offered an idea of where you are coming from and a perspective that I can actually and truly appreciate. I look forward to reading more of your posts that fall along the lines of this one.
“It feels good to blame the victim. It’s satisfying. It makes us feel smart. And safe because we can trick ourselves into believing it would never happen to us or anyone we care about, because we can clearly see where those “dumb b!tches” went wrong. We would never fall victim to that. We are smart and safe.”
Word to the motha. THIS is exactly it. It is what I was trying to say in a previous post above.
WC….I may lurk in the shadows but I always read your posts. You speak what I never have the words to write. Woman to woman this is truth right here.
My e-peen just got rock hard. Holy shit.
I kind of feel like I need to step into the ring on this one. I wast mostly silent yesterday save for the various convos i had off of VSB about the post and talking to Champ about it since this is VSB and we are a team.
Two things that immediately come to mind both yesterday and today.
1) nobody is above being human; and
2) one basic tenets of politics is that no politician feels that they have the wrong policy, they just haven’t communicated it properly.
Look, yesterday’s topic strikes a nerve with me because I have 4 sisters, 2 mommas, and a daughter. I look at my daughter and her potential for harm scares the living sh*t out of me. so to hear somebody say (debateably) that women need to exact more common sense in certain situations to me implies that there is actually something that you can do to prevent yourself from being a victim. and while there is truth there (sure you can reduce your chances), it directly (and unjustifiably) links one action with another. that i fervently disagree with. there’s never any justification for rape. and it should end there. thing is, everybody knows this. that’s just preaching to the choir.
where blog posts like yesterday’s go wrong is that you can’t try to rationally and logically discuss something so personal to so many people without fully acknowleding that for a great many people, it is completely personal. if you tell a woman that she shouldn’t get drunk b/c she may get taken advantage of and she never drinks a day in her life and still gets raped, well your entire premise gets shot to sh*t. then what? how do you tell her that maybe you could have done something different? especially for women who get marginalized in so many ways. hell, perfect example. i know women who have been sexually assaulted and i assholishly did question what they may have done to welcome such unwelcome attention and harm. and my god is that f*cked up. and i’m largely lauded as a “good” guy. i have a daughter now. i don’t feel that way anymore and it is a shame that it takes me really thinking about my daughter to come to grips with that, i’m aware. but rape and sexual assault gets placed in such a gray area that men get to dissociate ourselves from it. i’m not sure if i’m making any sense with that last part, but the point is, you’ve got to be really careful how you state things when it comes to topics like this. as the one who’s usually pissing people off and getting the “i will never return to VSB again” messages i’m aware. but it is largely the cost of doing business.
which brings me to another point. while many people didn’t like how Champ approached the topic, it is a topic that can and does need to be addressed. and while i did say to Champ that VSB might not be the venue for it, that’s not completely true. it could be if we decided to give it the full attention it deserves. we talk about race and relationsihps all the time so we’re effectively doing our due dillgence there. but something like rape would take a week series or something with varying levels of nuance and discussion. thing is, if we did that, we’d get complaints too. people would be ready to move on. its interesting, folks want more deep topics, but if i we write about the same thing two days in a row (and i dont mean piss folks off post and response) to presumably give something its due dilligence, folks would tune out and be very vocal about tuning out, even if it was something that the community really could benefit from. maybe its because people mostly just come here to get their jollies off and detach from reality. me no know. what i’ve often learned about writing is that you need to know your audience, but similarly you need to realize that you cant please everybody all of the time.
what i find most interesting is the psychology at play that takes place in the comments. and it really is very closely aligned with how we discuss things in the real world. you get a statement put out there and then a bunch of reactions to it which, in this case, were justified. then you get a bunch of people responding to those reactions as if they need to stop takign things personal or projecting and deal with the facts as they are. and when in the hell does that ever really happen? so we’ve got a bunch of people either saying he’s f*cked up or saying “right on!” and i honestly think both groups kind of miss the mark.
we get a lot of people, here and in the real world, who think that if somebody doesnt agree with them, that that person is wrong. there was definitely some good discussion taking place but the extremities turn me off all the time, which is difficult for me b/c i tend to live in the extremes. i feel like people tend to comment based on others comments and the reaction as much as anything. which is understandable but it also skews the convo. i wasn’t surprised at the reactions from anybody to tell the truth and figured it would go this way. but i also understand where folks were coming from who were deeply offended. a lot of times i wonder if we realize how what we say actually sounds like if said outloud.
to the two points i made up above, coming at Champ’s neck for the post might have been a bit over the top. he admitted it wasn’t the best move. maybe he did it a bit arrogantly. if you know champ that’s his thing anyway. no shots, champ. but as writers there’s a certain amount of arrogance in what we’re doing anyway. we assume that because we write stuff, people should show up. not that its write or makes any sense but we do end up takign some chances with things. lord knows i’ve paid for many a thing i’ve written from friends, in my own home, on this site. it happens. but you do have to give us a chance to learn from things. we say something jacked up and get called on it. give us a chance to grow from it. at the end of the day, just because we start the discussion doesnt mean we can’t have our opinions changed from it or that we can’t gain anything from it. i think we learn as much as anybody else does. we just facilitate most of it.
to the 2nd point, a lot of times we write things the way we would say them or think them and it doesnt always turn out the way we thought. in many writers heads, the way we write is the way we think and it isn’t until others get ahold to it that we learn that maybe we didnt articulate things in the right way or whatever. its not that the thought was wrong, its just that the way we think about some things could use some tweaking and if we communicated things in a less matter of fact way, then perhaps the convos would go differently. we’re all learning here.
this was long. i know. all that to say, i get the reactions from it all. and truly i didn’t love the post either and understood the reactions. from both sides. a lot of good points were made. dont think VSB is just fun and games all the time, real discussion and dialogue is happening and its important that we have days like yesterday to teach us. now, if we just let it ride and keep it moving then yes i can see the problem. and i can see why some folks would take his statement today as such. like…my feelings got hurt, but it is what it is. but if it helps us to think about things more thoroughly, or differently in the future, then it wasn’t a loss.
for those that we lost, im really sorry to hear that. but know this, you can’t help facilitate change unless you’re in the convo. if we’re wrong, we need to hear that just as much as we need to hear when we hit the nail on the head. education doesnt stop b/c you graduate.
thank you and good night.
This guy with all the great commentary and personal reflection and sh!t.
dont tell nobody but i can be mad emo and reflective on occasion. shhhh.
No, thank you Panama. I love everything about this comment.
thanks.
Yes, this was long as hellAppreciated.lol. i tried to shorten it but i figured i’d just leave it alone, grammar and spelling errors included.
yes, i know its “right” and not “write” lol
lmao….i loved the comment tho
All I can say is that I appreciate you guys – this blog, your advice, opinions, thoughts, sarcasm, etc. I wasn’t offended yesterday, but I may have felt differently if I’d been a victim of sexual assault, as so many of my fellow VSS’s have been. I can be pretty insensitive myself, even unknowingly. We’re only human. I’m sure Champ didn’t set out to piss off and alienate the thousands of readers of this site. He didn’t backtrack today, but acknowledged that maybe this wasn’t the best topic/his wasn’t the best approach to the topic. I’m happy about that and hope that things will settle.
This is a great blog. It’s not perfect, and while I may not agree with every sentiment I read from Champ and Panama, or even the regular commenters, I’m not going anywhere.
thanks for sticking around.
@panama Wow. it really does come back full circle… im just sad this post didnt inspire another great nickname like the “gurrrrlllllll he a 3″ joint.
great comment.
it does feel weird not being on the receiving end of this type of backlash. i almost dont know what to do. lol.
Just enjoy, PJ. Just enjoy.
Key points:
a lot of times i wonder if we realize how what we say actually sounds like if said outloud.
a lot of times we write things the way we would say them or think them and it doesnt always turn out the way we thought.
in many writers heads, the way we write is the way we think and it isn’t until others get ahold to it that we learn that maybe we didnt articulate things in the right way or whatever.
Thank you!!! We are all still learning!
true indeed.
Seeing that of the two of you, you’re the ONLY one willing to come and directly engage with the readers CHAMP offended, I’m completely fine with my decision to read just on the weeks you post.
thanks for taking one for the team and addressing the fallout.
it’s still early. give the man a chance. i mean let’s be real, this is somewhat foreign territory for him (kind of old hat for me…damn shame) and its difficult to be on the receiving end of some of the sh*t i’m reading here AND on Twitter. especially on Twitter. folks are going in on us.
but technically he responded to everybody twice…yesterday and today..so maybe he feels he’s said what he needs. i dont know. i’m not in his head and haven’t talked to him but i do think he has engaged the folks that were offended. now how you feel about his engagement, well, that’s up to you and i dont begrudge you how you feel. but this whole post was directed at everybody. personally so to speak.
“Seeing that of the two of you, you’re the ONLY one willing to come and directly engage with the readers CHAMP offended…”
Right? Plus, there was another moment yesterday when Champ basically went, “There are way too many comments in moderation than I have time for, so yall are just gonna stay there. Deal.” And Panama came behind him and said “Nah, these comments are important and worth getting out there, so I’m going to take the time to free each and every one of them.” That’s when I realized just how dope of a person Panama is. The respect I gained for Panama has made up for the respect I lost for Champ. Thanks to PJ (Liz too, actually) I still have faith in VSB.
Not that I think Champ is a monster or anything…I’m just turned off by the lack of empathy and humility he continues to show.
Thank you, Panama. Your thoughtful and emotionally honest response was what I was hoping to receive from The Champ. I think his post today is a bit too concerned with asserting that he doesn’t think he was wrong, won’t be backing down, etc. But that’s just one girl’s opinion.
Yesterday’s post from The Champ and the affirmations of his opinion from many men made me, like another poster today, just sad to be a woman. I read VSB in large part to hear a male opinion on things. Women often say that they just don’t understand men. Yesterday told me that I do actually understand…and am so very sad. IIWII.
while my personal opinion is that as opposed to being sad to be a woman, i’d hope that you could be hopeful in realizing that at least men are willing to engage in the discussion that is necessary to have, i do understand where you’re coming from.
And this is how you apologize. Panama, seriously, your writing on this blog always feels like it comes from the heart. You never front or trip and you always seem genuine. I promise if you lose that in your writing, you will lose me as a true fan. So proud of you and your success. Keep doing your thing.
thank you.
Sighing in happiness. I agree
PJ, have you seen the huffington post?
I did see the HuffPo article. it just read like another comment over here. i honestly think that via our comments section, literally everything that can be said about this HAS been said.
every article that gets written (as i’m expecting more) about Champ’s article will rehash the same things that are being said in the comments section. We know…we need to change our name.
We know…the post was misguided.
We know at this point.
I saw it too. I also saw this other article on there.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mariska-hargitay/personal-fouls_b_1228974.html
It appears that 1 in 6 (16.7 %) of adult men were raped as a child. I wonder how many of that 16.7% make up the estimated 8% of men who rape women?
Pain begets pain.
From the article: “64 percent of the women considered themselves to have been s.e.xually abused. Only 16 percent of the men did.” Reminds me of the discussion we had a while ago where some suggested that a young teen boy engaging in s.e.x with an older woman was not a victim.
*two thumbs up*
As someone who has an unfortunately extensive history with sexual violence/assault, I’d like to take the time to say that I wasn’t offended, Champ. While I completely understand and even agree with the majority of the sentiments posted by the VSSs yesterday, I also understand the what you were TRYING to convey. I was going to sit in the comments section yesterday after posting an emotional response to the post, but thought better of it. It would have all boiled down to “This is a sensitive topic for me and the very thought of victim blaming makes me sick, but I don’t think that’s what you were trying to get at”.
Well, I didn’t read yesterday’s post. I saw the title and that was enough for me to pass, I still have no intentions of reading it. I do not come here because VSB tackles hard-hitting subject matter with aplomb. It’s quite the contrary, I come here because it’s light. I expect pure unadulterated f#ckery and random dumb sh!t. Like, seriously.
that was like a backhanded compliment.
@Panama- It may have been a backhanded compliment, but you gotta admit, she does have a point. There are certain topics yall hit and I used to get excited like yeah we get to show others who can’t relate how complex and conflicting this is, and then….you guys take it lightly and make a lot of jokes to keep it light. It used to disappoint me at times, but now I expect it. I like when ppl keep ish consistent. Not an insult, just an observation. We’re not telling you to stay in your lane, we’re just saying that since you normally do, we expect it lol
Reminds me of a commenter that loooooooves responding to my posts and trying to get me riled up but it doesn’t work, because I just laugh at her then find an intelligent comment that I either like or respect and I contribute to that conversation. My time, thoughts, and emotional energy are ALL precious
thing is…we actually do stretch out a lot on here. i know i’ve personally hit on various deeper topics. thing is, they’re usually the least commented on debates. but such is life i guess.
anyway i feel you. i just dont like being thought of as pure non-sense ninjas when that’s so not the case at all.
I haven’t read through all the comments, but I have a question for those that are unsatisfied with today’s post/”unapologetic apology”/admission of wrongdoing. (See paragraph 4) –
I’m just curious to know what the Champ could have said today that you WOULD have been satisfied with.
@Carter- He could’ve said “Im a man and I don’t know sh*t. Whatever a woman decides is rape is in fact rape. Man up. And Love and Hip Hop is the greatest show on television right now” But he failed to do that so he got what was coming to him! (oh the irony of that unintended pun) lol
A real apology. That is it.
There is a difference between making waves and taking a steak knife to your SUPPORTER’S hearts.
I read this statement no less than sixteen times and each time I saw unadultered contempt and hatred in it:
***…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.” and I just can’t agree anymore.”***
It’s not true. It’s hateful. It’s arrogrant. It’s a lie.
And he won’t apologize because as he says, “I do not apologize for possessing the feeling I was attempting to convey.” Which is some VAGUE BULLS*HT.
I’ve been reading since way back. I’ve put some people on and honestly I would have never linked to that article because well, I know how sensitive subjects and sensitive people can cause quarts of internet blood to spill. Particularly in regards to women and responsibility and accountability in an article. Those things will never go over well. I am sad for people who had emotional experiences or flashbacks. I am sad for those who will not return, but dammit I’m proud that it got written and forever lives in internet history as a testament to speaking up in a world that is rapidly losing it’s balls. The apology made it even better because you aren’t apologizing for your feelings and you actually made it a point to cater to both side. Well played sir, well played. A win for the brave unwavering spirit of real journalism. The collateral damage is always unfortunate.
Champ… lemme give you a summary of the people who support your position:
Justmetheguy says, “The sad thing is that we can’t talk about the grey area of consent”…
-Lemme clue you in… There is no grey area to consent. You either consent to something or you don’t.
Just me the guy also wanted to “address the mixed messages” women supposedly give…
- Here is a clue, if a woman is giving you mixed messages–Leave her confused, dizzy azz alone. She is not a woman but a playing games little girl who you shouldn’t mess with. Easy peasy. Grown azz women know what they want. You don’t *need* to have sex with her. You don’t. In fact, it will cause more problems than it solves.
Justmetheguy also played, “devil’s advocate” and said ,” the whole theory of “you should never have sex with a girl that’s under the influence of alcohol” (I’ve heard that in some places its illegal and I’ve heard ppl say they agree with this ridiculous rule). That my friends is bullsh*t.”
- No, it’s bullshit that he thinks his priority to have sex with someone is more important than their priority not to have sex. If you think a woman is too drunk to make good decisions, be a friend and put her ass in a cab and send her home. Why is that so hard? Why do you look at her, licking your lips… saying to yourself… yeah, I’mma get me that sloppy drunk. You got issues. If you need a woman to be three sheets to the wind to have sex with you… ya’ll ain’t meant to be together.
Justmetheguy also said, “I see where the lines get blurred sometimes, and in situations where the girl likes the guy but may not be ready to take it there yet…”
- If she is not ready yet… you aren’t the judge that she is. She ain’t ready. Who are hell are you to force her to change her mind? Move it along and find someone who is ready and willing. Or wait. No risk of raping someone that way. If you can’t get a woman to sleep with you enthusiatically or willfully, you shouldn’t be having sex.
The Anti-Cool said, “Women play these games all of the time.” Yes, they do. But someone deciding he will have sex with her despite getting a green light is not the answer. Rape is not the appropriate consequence to a woman playing games. GOOD MEN would call her bluff and walk away. That would incentivize her, if she truly wants to smash, to speak up. That is a lesson for women, they should not be coy or play mindgames when it comes to what they want.
Justmetheguy again says, “However, when you talk about women getting raped by their husbands and boyfriends that kind of points to a bigger problem (or at least a problem that’s as big as victim blaming). ”
-Yes, and that problem is sexual assault in relationships. Nothing that the women are doing.
He then goes on to make a bold ass statement. “How the hell do we stop it or even know who’s telling the truth when it comes to those situations?”
-Right, women are the best judges as to if they consented or not.
Justmetheguy goes on to say more bold statements, “Because what happens when a chick wants to do it then changes her mind after it begins?”
- YOU STOP. You stop. You stop. Why is this hard to understand? Is your ability to ‘finish off’ more important than her will or her sanctity of body?
More from him, “What happens when he’s had a history of showing more honesty and integrity than her?”
-And??? That is irrelevant. Just because someone pays taxes doesn’t mean they didn’t beat someone up one time. Victims shouldn’t have to be perfect angels their whole lives to be believed. Women who are sex workers or promiscuous can be raped just as much as virgins… and it hurts them and scars them just as bad.
Also, Justmetheguy said, “We really would like to discuss how much/what type of consent is necessary”
- This one is easy. Um, 100%? If there is anything less than 100% consent… guess what? It ain’t consent… it’s coercion.
Justmetheguy again, “What happens when she feels betrayed that he told someone she didn’t want to know so she claims it was rape?”
-The vast majority of women are so ridiculously maligned when they report their rape and most women who are actually raped don’t report because of the consequences of everyone in their lives turning on them, victim blaming, asking what they did to bring this on themselves. No one in their right mind falsely accuses just for attention or regrets. Studies have shown false reports of rape are no more common than false reports for any other crime… extremely rare… like less than 1%. It takes Herculean mental and emotional strength to report a rape… it’s NOT SOMETHING WOMEN TAKE LIGHTLY. It can ruin your life as a victim to report.
Justmetheguy again, “What happens when there’s no camera present?”
Since when does a camera *have to be there*? So you’re saying a woman cannot be believe unless she present video evidence? WTF. Do you hear yourself?
Justmetheguy again, “But not everything that is labeled rape is created equal and every accusation isn’t genuine.”
-All rape is traumatic. All rape is hurtful. All victims are equal before the law. Almost no false accusations happen… and very few rapists ever get behind bars… only about 6% ever get convicted. Most of them are out free as a lark. It’s a malicious and hateful rhetoric to spread lies and rumors that even a significant portion of rape reports are false. It’s just not true.
If you are so worried about a woman ‘regretting’ sex with you… why don’t you figure out why that might be… Ie. Don’t have sex with someone who is on fence about you. Don’t have sex with someone you don’t know well. Don’t have sex with someone in an altered state who doesn’t have their wits about them. And work to make sex an unregrettable experience with a willing partner.
RG said, “Can we agree the water gets murkier when this same woman consents or “goes along” with sex, but later states she did not consent? ”
-Women are not going around making false accusations. This is just not the truth. Trying to spread this malicious agenda is used by the very people who perpetrate rapes. They intentionally murky the waters so what they did doesn’t look as bad. The vast majority of women who are raped are made to feel so much shame it and it is so hard to report rape it’s so completely insulting to suggest that women take something like this lightly. Oh and the percentages are the same as for any other crime… less than 1%. Your welcome. That means 99% are genuine and that is what matters. Don’t try to change the topic or shift the conversation to a situation that is rare and unlikely because the prevalence of something that makes you uncomfortable.
Jevioso says, “If they’ve never raped, why should they feel guilty for some man who decided to do that to their mother, daughter, sister, neice etc”
- No one is saying feel guilty. They are saying… DO SOMETHING. Teach the next generation of young men to make sure their partner is fully consenting before sex… teach them not to make rape jokes or make light of the situation.
Jevioso also says, “I mean think of the alternative: imagine every man you know, is told he’s a possible rapist from the age of 12 yrs old. That every rape that comes about he’s responsible for.”
-Yeah no, this is just not true. Using hyperbole is not a valid argument I’ve never seen a momma in a grocery childing her son for being a rapist. #Getouttatown
Jevioso goes on again and makes a long rant about ‘nice guys’ vs. ‘bad boys’ and how wimmin don’t know what they should want.
-Yeah, big difference between confidence and assertiveness and a rapist, ok.
Jevioso, “So what happens, the guy gets repressed…”
-He goes to see a counselor and work out his issues with women.
Jevioso ,”He builds even more resentment.”
-So what? His resentment isn’t anyone’s business or responsibility.
And this is the more frightening post of all… Jevioso …“The girl gets uncomfortable, she tells the guy to stop, but he doesn’t want to stop, he can’t hear her…all his pent up resentment flourishes, he has a chance to finally penetrate a woman, he loses him mind. 10 minutes later the girl is crying on the floor, the man is corrupted, possessed, spiritually dead…and we’re right there having this same exact conversation”
-This is a rape. HE IS SPRITUALLY DEAD? What about her? ARE YOU KIDDING? Are you really sympathizing with the rapist in this situation? WOW. Just wow. The only thing he is corrupted by is his own evil selfish thought he ‘deserves’ sex. No one ‘deserves’ sex from someone else. Sex is something mutually agreed upon.
Jevioso goes on to lose his damn mind and goes on to rant again for a long while about how feminism makes men rape? What the what? Excluding reality and facts that rape happens even in patriarchal societies. Sounds like Ike, “Tina, why do you make me hit you” craziness… Full rape apologist mode achieved.
See Champ what sick can of worms you unleashed? These are the wackos that wholeheartedly support your position. You seem to be in good company.
Opinions are like assholes… everyone has one. But not all opinions are based in fact or experience. Some opinions are downright wrong as hell… like Newt Gingrich saying black people are poor because they are lazy and don’t understand the value of getting a job. Some opinions are JUST PLAIN WRONG.
When you are JUST PLAIN WRONG. You need to sincerely apologize.
By not apologizing you are saying you are incapable of growth and exalt your ignorant stubbornness.
I know you think you are on the same level as Isse Rae… the difference being… Issa Rae was portraying a fictional character who said something mildly offensive in jest… You are a REAL PERSON who is trying to advance a harmful rhetoric of victim blaming. Issa > You. Not even close to the same level.
You are still 100% arrogant in thinking that you know better than us women who are apparently “silly empty headed hoes sippin’ on Patron” thinking we shouldn’t get raped… don’t we just know betta’? Common sense… UP TOP BROS… Hoes be getting’ raped, amiright? High give!
Is that the real sentiment that you want to hold onto? That women should feel unsafe because if she gets drunk it’s open season on her pussy? That is your dearly held belief?????
The point of this post seems to be you acknowledge blasting and emotional wound open of a huge chunk of your readership in exchange for a day’s worth of page views.
Do you think this makes you a hero or a real man?
It takes MUCH MORE STRENGTH to admit you were wrong then it does to retrench and double down on a shitty throwaway idea you recognize as wrong.
…?
@TheAntiCool- lol, my thoughts exactly. Just pray for her. I don’t take it personal, I know it’s not really me she’s mad at, despite all the bs she interpreted from my actual posts. Hopefully going in like that with such a long and erroneous post made her feel better
Yeah, and I don’t take it personal either. I don’t pray but I really do hope that this post at least ends up being emotionally cathartic for her and others on and off this blog. It would be a shame if no good whatsoever came from all of this.
Your attempt to gaslight me won’t work. I’m way ahead in cognitive ability.
Paranoid much? I have not personally attacked you despite being called a few not nice names and being labeled evil and having death wished upon me. We don’t agree at all and that’s fine. The world will keep spinning.
Maybe I crossed a line offering an unprofessional analysis of your emotional state. Especially based on comments in a post that was running hot with raw emotion. For that I will apologize. Accept it or ignore it or tell me to shove it up my arrogant ass. Whatever you feel is appropriate. I don’t do subliminals and I don’t do beef cause ultimately I don’t take this internet sht that seriously.
If you really still feel that strongly about my thoughts and opinions or whatever we can agree to scroll on by each other. Like I said, this is not that serious.
I think you’re so desperate for male attention you’ll agree with any crazy or offensive statement made by a dude just go you can be accepted.
See… I can be an armchair psychologist too…
I didn’t interpret sh*it. I quoted you VERBATIM… you asked questions… I gave you answers… isn’t that the ‘dialogue’ you wanted? You just don’t like the sound of those answers… you disagree about consent… what?
Uh, this was a well thought-out, thorough rebuttal to several comments. Why y’all insinuating that OP has brought nothing valuable to the convo? And, again, implying that “emotional” responses from personal experience are somehow invalid– yeah, no. Insinuating someone is just crazy to dismiss their claims is the oldest trick in the book. You said f*cked up ish and got called on it. Deal.
What can’t you understand? You wanted to do a ‘dialogue.’ Here I am responding to points that were brought up.
“…?” <—Typical dismissive response.
Got nothing to say about the particulars… feign you don't understand.
Wow. This was very…comprehensive.
I got two things out of this.
1) “Don’t have sex with someone who is on fence about you. Don’t have sex with someone you don’t know well. Don’t have sex with someone in an altered state who doesn’t have their wits about them. And work to make sex an unregrettable experience with a willing partner.”
This makes sense. People are crazy. Know who you’re dealing with before you enter into a closed room with them.
2) “See Champ what sick can of worms you unleashed? These are the wackos that wholeheartedly support your position. You seem to be in good company.”
Those people may support The Champ’s views (or what they thought to be The Champ’s views) but that doesn’t mean he necessarily supports theirs. Associating the two is wrong.
I don’t see him disavowing this mode of thinking… that consent is blurry… that victims are TRULY never at fault… no ‘buts’ about it.
Champ didn’t respond to any individual comments yesterday in support of/opposition to anyone’s perspective. Because that’s not his job. He’s a writer. He wrote.
This is an open internet forum where people are free to share their opinions no matter how idiotic and inflammatory just like you are free to call it bullsh*t and refute it.
Perhaps no one is ever going to say enough to heal you. But for what it’s worth, what happened to you is not your fault and you did not deserve it, you’ve got some power that shoudn’t be taken for granted, and protecting yourself is worth it. Don’t give up on that.
You know I am really sick of you saying you know all about my ‘healing process’ or making assumptions because I call out bullshit when I see it. Oldest trick in the book to counteract arguments by a woman to say she isn’t thinking rationally.
We can take turns being armchair psychologists… I think you’re a panderer and desperate to be liked.
All very good points. I’m glad you quoted text to miss all the “that’s not what i said” BS. Also think it’s a good thing to think about the kind of people agreeing with your position. I do think blogs’ commenters reflect on the quality of the blog. If you attract pretty stupid commenters/readers… well, that says SOMETHING. Not saying I think the crazy commenters your quoted represent the original author’s viewpoints, but it does say something that people like them with thoughts like those believe they’re brave and championing truth around these parts on some “we got your back” type ish. Clearly, his back is all types vulnerable because… that was some sick ish.
Smh. The purpose of that post wasn’t to be apologetic to a rapist, the purpose of that post was to show how education isn’t the answer, that in fact some of these rapist are in fact well educated on rape and lived internalized all the guilt being thrown at them by women like yourself (which is ok, you’ll never admit that you’re guilting men in the first place, but it’s quite clear you are) since it didn’t work out for them in reality, they end up raping out of resentment and repression – which would give a good foundation as to why most rapes are performed by men who women trust aka the nice guys, as I would expect women aren’t trusting bad guys (but hey, no need to take to see the connection – it is rather simplistic)
You keep saying the reason why rape happens is because men feel they deserve to have sex with women and that thought should be eliminated completely from the minds of men – this goes back to one of my earlier points, if thinking you deserve sex leads to rape, and most men feel they deserve sex, why aren’t more men rapist? Why aren’t 50% or more men rapist? They all listen to the same music, they all watch the same porn, so why aren’t more men reacting to these aspects of rape culture and doing what rape culture programs them to do?
The simple fact is that feminists like yourself never want to accept men as they are (rather they conveniently paint men as products who are molded by “society” and thus can be molded into whatever feminist would like them to be the more power they achieve in “society”) and thus never consider how to properly address issues that deal with men. They want to make imprudent demands on men, and never consider the vile consequences that might come about as side effects. That’s why I always sigh when women complain to me about how soft and unambitious men are today, I often say to them, well when they were hard and ambitious you complained that they were too macho and then the women respond and say: “You don’t need to be macho to be ambitious or tough and I look at them and say: “Moderation is the hardest and rarest thing to accomplish in reality.”
Amen. That is all I can say.
A regular lurker here…
And errr…umm…
This —> http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/2012/01/25/no-matter-what-anyone-says-never-apologize-for-anything-you-believe-in/ pretty much sums up my take on the subject.
Live. Learn. Forgive. Move on (though it may be hard to…still is a must).
Fin.
The title of your link states: “No Matter What ANYONE Says – NEVER Apologize For ANYTHING You Believe In”
I completely disagree with this. This is for folks who have no room in their minds for discussion, humility and owning up to the inevitable mistakes that people make. How can you make amends when you don’t apologize?
BTW my comment has nothing to do with today’s post, I’m just responding to some of the responses I’ve read today that suggest some would have lost respect for Champ if he’d apologized, even though he conceded the fact that he reached for conclusions when writing yesterday’s post.
Why is the simple act of making an apology so difficult and distasteful to us? The mind is boggled.
You Clearly Didn’t Read Or Understand The Link…
Welp, I did read and understand the article. But I’ll reword my comment in case you didn’t understand me: When you hold and make known an opinion, and and due to some process you realize that your opinion was based on false info and thereby caused hurt to others, to simply state that you have grown/learned, and that you recognize that your opinion was based on shaky premises is not enough. An apology should follow.
No one is perfect, sometimes our strongly held beliefs are based on prejudice, false information, etc. To know this and still stand against making apologies is wrong. That’s what I was trying to say. Also, aside from maybe a little bit of hurt pride, it’s hard for me to find the bad side of an apology.
Now if you state your opinion and are able to back it up to the fullest, I agree with you that no apology is ever needed.
First, Allow Me To Share My Initial Premise On Opinions: If You Believe You Are Sufficiently Informed, Then Feel Free To State It In An Open Forum – If Not, Leave It Alone.
I Don’t Pretend To Know The Intricate Nuances Of Rape – So I Keep My Opinion To Myself As Should A Lot Of Other People. Hopefully We Can Agree On That.
But Stating An Opinion Is NEVER Grounds For Apology IF Said Opinion Was Crafted Without Malicious Intent – To Apologize For Other’s REACTIONS To Your Opinion Is A Slippery Slope That Usually Ends In Being Mitt Romney.
“Now if you state your opinion and are able to back it up to the fullest, I agree with you that no apology is ever needed.”
Whether or not an opinion is backed up to the fullest is subjective. You should be able to agree to disagree with the understanding that the offender did not intend to harm you. Do folks have the right to be offended? Of course. Should it matter that it wasn’t Champ’s intention. Absolutely.
Let’s not get self-righteous just because this is a touchy subject. We’ve all…ALL done this same thing in some way or another (unintentionally hurt someone with our opinion…and not automatically or fully changed our opinion). Regardless of the subject, we all have a right to take that stance…ultimately dealing with whatever the consequences (positive or negative) are.
OK, I’ll just say it again because it seems like my comments are being misconstrued for some reason:
When you voice an opinion and afterwards come to a personal realization that not only were your opinions based on shaky premises, and were a source of hurt to others an apology is appropriate.
Champ seemed to have come to some sort of personal realization. Here’s what he said up top:
“After re-reading Zerlina’s post for the umpteenth time yesterday, I realized that I definitely reached for the inferences I made. Because I followed the discussion about it on Twitter before actually reading it, I read it with an agenda, looking for a few things that weren’t actually there. I know how shitty it feels to have people make conclusions about something you’ve written before actually reading it, and I apologize to Zerlina for doing that to her.”
The article you linked stated that one should NEVER apologize for opinions and all I said is that I disagree with this ‘NEVER’ statement.
Hope I finally got my point across. If not, then I guess that’s fate or something.
And here is were we exercise the lost art of agreeing to disagree.
I understand what you are saying. And, for a lot of reasons (upbringing, experiences, etc.), I simply disagree with you.
And, in the land of the free, I THOUGHT that was ok…
Forget that…it IS ok. Though some folks aren’t acting like it.
Not everyone believes that discussing everything (which is what everyone knows full well Champ was saying) equates to blaming women for their own rape. And the folks who believe that way simply believe differently from you. They are not the devil. They are not the reason why rapes occur. And to treat them as such is…IMO…wrong. You may think they’re short-sighted…but that doesn’t make them bad people…though you can’t tell that by some of the responses. All sad to me.
Again, I simply disagree with you.
Guess I left out a major point…my bad…
Champ didn’t apologize for his opinion…he apologized for the way he approached/viewed/read into her article…with an opinion already formed.
Not the same.
This….. brilliant. That’s all.
i havent read that many comments from today’s or yesterday’s post. but i think i read enough to see that there is nothing more incendiary about the “rape” post than others written in the past that actually warranted an “apology post”. i just dont think its not that serious.
now, i recognize VSB has a HUGE audience and you want to keep the support of long time readers while gaining the interest of new readers. but i dont think it’s necessary for writers/bloggers to shy away from serious controversial or sensitive topics for fear of offending some one. ppl get offended at any and everything. what’s the point of being a big-time writer if you always play it safe, never take risks? you win some, you lose some. the goal of VSB should not be to make everyone feel comfortable and not ever push the limits on topics of discussion. the goal should be to write thought provoking posts, while creating a welcoming environment for any and all opinions.
truth be told, yesterday’s post was NOT thought provoking. it wasnt offensive either (because it wasnt degrading, destructive or deleterious in nature). hell, im more offended by what it DIDNT say than what it did. i agree with Champ’s overall assessment that A) rape is never deserved (apparently a lot of ppl missed this key point, hmmm) and B) we should advocate that both men AND women exercise good judgment and act responsibly. but this sheer opinion on its own lacks depth or perspective into any issues surrounding rape. the piece didnt speak to how we as a society view rape and how this view effects how we handle rape, be it judicially and inter-personally. the piece didnt even come close to relating “rape responsibility” to pop-cultural references to rape or how rape/victim blaming is portrayed in the media. basically, the post wasnt very smart because it wasnt very interesting or insightful.
at the end of the day, i dont agree with all the sentiments or opinions expressed on this blog by either writer**. but i also dont write for this blog, so theres bound to be a point of contention at times. hell, i wouldnt read ANY blog or news article if i backed away from any and everything that offended me on occasion.
and if the time ever comes that i decide to stop reading this blog, i wont announce my grand exit (which says a lot considering im overly dramatic about almost everything). leaving comments like “im never reading this blog again!!!!! …but im going to keep responding to express my dislike of all this bullsh*t” is soooooo lame.
**any reader who claims theyll only read on weeks when Panama is writing is a damn fool, because hes the one more likely to say some inflammatory nonsense and have women, in particular, up in arms lol
ugh! “i just dont think its not that serious” should read “i just dont think its that serious”
What are we “talking” about tomorrow is all I want to know at this point. Obviously eveyone doesn’t have the same emotional maturity or life would be boring. Either you deal with certain people at a certain time in your life or you don’t. “Seasons change, people come and go.” I love VSB.
um…why did you have to take shots at me dammit. i thought we were all playing nice today
i didnt mean to take a shot at you, PeeJ. just making a point. namely, you dont really give a damn what anybody thinks about what you think. thats why i love you. dearly.
@GEM
**any reader who claims theyll only read on weeks when Panama is writing is a damn fool, because hes the one more likely to say some inflammatory nonsense and have women, in particular, up in arms lol
LMAO the whole time i was reading the comments about Champ v Panama etc etc.. I had that high pitced questioning voice in my head with the following words “PANAMA? P3? REALLY” echoing over and over….
Overall i agree that Champ did need to address the issues from yesterday as I agree any writer in an interactive forum would need to in the same situation and Im glad he did.
Other than that… well…
y’all gon’ stop pretending like i’m not the nicest motherf*cker any of y’all know.
lmbo. put it this way PeeJ, now each of you have one “post that shall not be named”. you’re even!
one day, when we’re celebrating “3 + 3 Deez” in DC, we’ll all look back on this and laugh. well… those of us who are insensitive a$sholes will laugh. the rest will be scowling in the corner saying, “i dont really DO VSB when ____ writes anymore”.
*shrug*
People here are still blissfully unaware about why the framing of the discussion yesterday/today is problematic.
When the only way that you contextualize for the point of discussion is to put the woman (in this case, because everyone gets raped) in the most elaborate and “sinful” positions you remove the reality of how most rapes occur. The reason you’re citing a nationally known case as a real world example is because well it’s an outlier (or a REALLY REALLY pretty blonde hair blue eyed white woman). Outliers should always be addressed, but they should take up the bulk of the discussion nor should we pretend that they are representative of the entire “set”.
Additionally, the advice of being more aware of your surroundings is pretty useless outside of those outliers because women ARE aware of their surroundings and even the most vigilant and straight-edged and nun apparel and virgin women still get raped. And those women are far more a part of the majority than the SVU scenarios you point to bolster your stance. So the advice is given is pretty much a smack in the face, to put it in the lightest terms possible, for survivors of rape because they did everything right and yet it still happened.
Furthermore, the fixation with women being more cognizant of their surroundings reduces the act of rape. No matter how many asides you throw out about how you feel bad or that no one deserves it, you are dismissing the rapist by fixating on what women do to put themselves in certain positions. This line of thinking is carried over to conviction for rape where the defense fixates on what the woman did to deserve it. In turn the jury also fixates on that. And finally 1 out of 12 (correct me if I’m wrong) people that convicted for rape actually go to jail and serve any time. And those that do, do not get any particularly long sentences.
So we end up with advice that is already put into use and doesn’t actually address anything regarding rapists. Instead we stay on discussing, to various degrees, on how much of a woman’s autonomy is owed by society and the appropriate amount of punishment she gets for not being a lady. Funny enough, when a man gets drunk out of his mind his punishment is a really bad hangover and when a women gets drunk out of her mind her punishment is to be raped and murdered. Do you not see any problems with this line of discussion now?
Interesting chain of thoughts u got homie. While am occasional commenter, but daily reader, I am interested in seeing if others share your analysis. For the record, I agree with your point.
Came back to see if anyone was gonna challenge this, or concede to any of your points. Guess not. Thanks for trying, though. Some of us truly appreciate it.
This is 100% how I felt about yesterdays post.
You’ve pretty much said it all.
Thank you for your posts Malik, men listen to other men… and smart and precise men like you speaking up is a blessing.
amen.
From one VSB to another:
Thank you Malik for this comment
And let the church say: AMEN!
Malik gets it. Great comment, and so true.
Malik…thank you for all of this.
This is akin to pissing in someone’s cheerios, telling them “oh my bad, I thought it was milk” and expecting them to eat it anyway.
Posts like yesterday, and even this barely sincere non-apology is replete with the same brash undercurrent that suggests you’re implying the whole “yeen gonna stop me from doing what I wanna do anyway PLUS YOU CLICKED ON IT SO YOU MUST LIKE IT” angle.
Reach is good, readership is dope. I’m a writer, I get it…I want to be in the mix. But there are times you have to just admit to yourself that you have to sit some topics out and stop to remember your vast support base (which you continue to remind us of) have varying experiences that don’t always jive with your need to “entertain.”
I pray that the whole VSB team grows up and gets with the times as a result of the fallout. Or not. It seems a typical brushoff will be in order to this comment, but I’ll be around to address it in D.C. or anywhere else you may see me.
Peace,
Wise
Amen, don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining…
After skimming yesterday’s post, I decided to practice “Reducing the Risk” of me possibly becoming offended from insensitive rhetoric, by not reading at all. I have had family members who have been raped and a cousin who was murdered by her rapist because she finally told someone what he had done to her for many years. So, I will be honest in saying that I probably would not have given some comments a fair listen based on what I’ve experienced.
Too sensitive of a subject for me to have in this forum.
” After skimming yesterday’s post, I decided to practice “Reducing the Risk” of me possibly becoming offended from insensitive rhetoric, by not reading at all.”
Wise move (not being sarcastic at all) and I’m really sorry you had to go through that. I’ll pray for you and all the rest of the victims as you heal.
” I can see that my departure following my post yesterday was the wise decision. I knew even my 1 lone comment would generate strawmen; and I had neither the time nor inclination to knock down arguments that I wasn’t making or to refute positions that I never took. But I knew it was exactly what would happen. Because it’s what ALWAYS happens.
Yeah man, you’re a wiser man than me, because I actually knew it too. This has happened over and over and over to me, especially on blogs, but I just felt bad leaving Champ out there like that by himself when I knew what he was trying to say and felt like certain grey areas needed to be addressed as opposed to just saying “rape is bad. the end”. But yeah, as I’ve said multiple times on today’s post, that’s my go to response from now on.
” This is one topic, that if it even needs to be debated, should be done by professionals in the field (health care, law enforcement, etc) and with numbers and studies; no one and nothing else.”
Unfortunately for us that love to discuss, you may be absolutely right about that.
”
I do not apologize for anything I said yesterday, nor do I take responsibility for the ideas that were imputed to me that I neither said, nor implied, nor endorsed. I will continue to advocate any and everything that might help prevent crime of any sort, because to my mind’s eye – trying to prevent someone from becoming a victim is not now, nor ever will be equivalent to saying that “the victim had it coming” or “the victim didn’t do enough to stop it” (even if they failed to take the precautions I advocated). I cannot be anymore clear than that. If people still have a problem with it, so be it.”
YES! You could repeat this 1000 times and it still wouldn’t be enough. I’d pay to have this on multiple billboards and it still wouldn’t stop ppl from putting words in your mouth or telling you what you implied as if they know your thoughts better than you do smh, that’s why silence is a much better policy than honesty
“I’ll pray for you and all the rest of the victims as you heal.”
Thank You
i know this is hard to believe, but maybe we’re (women) are extra sensitive to the ‘common sense’ advice about ‘preventing’ sexual assaults because we’ve been hearing the same thing over and over again, for our entire lives, and it still makes no difference. we’re screaming at you because we want to be heard. it’s not the best way to get a message across, but some it’s the only way they know.
the same way, that many Black men are tired of hearing how they aint sh*t from blogs, media etc.., this is a small snippet of how we feel.
it’s a man’s world. every woman has resigned herself to this. that doesn’t mean that it makes it any easier to deal with when it comes to certain topics. double sexual standards will ALWAYS suck. we’re unfairly labelled and cast as the weaker sex, but then admonished for being a victim. it gets exhausting and frustrating to say the least.
+27
T-Lee!
I have missed your throat punches in my life.
Wow. Y’all brought BBMo out from the shadows!
Sad that it took this for me to come out, but it made its way into my area of the blogosphere. As a 13 year survivor I had to speak. I spoke yesterday. Now I’m just sitting and watching. With my mouth agape.
But y’all know me… I don’t speak until I feel like my head is going to explode.
hey chica!!!! holla @ me on tweeter!!!:) @miss_tlee missed you too!!!
“it’s a man’s world. every woman has resigned herself to this.”
I think my main problem is I haven’t resigned myself to this nor do I plan to. So I’m always looking for ways to get around it. Definitely does my my life harder though.
Yup totally agree
@Keisha Browne- Point taken. I certainly get it, even if I can’t relate or truly know how it actually feels. Wish I could do something about it. I really do. I do think God has a path/plan for us all though…even the atheists (Shoutout to The Anti-Cool)
What are you talking about a grey area….
Consent does not have a gray area.
Either you want someone to do something to you… or you do not.
This is not hard to understand.
Apparently it is pretty hard to understand, for those of us who haven’t been educated about this matter. THIS is the “common sense” we need to be teaching and talking about…what consent is.
You did that very well upthread, by the way. Some people dismissed it because you were emotional (and emotional women are NEVER worth being taken seriously…gag me) but that was some good sh!t.
I can see that my departure following my post yesterday was the wise decision. I knew even my 1 lone comment would generate strawmen; and I had neither the time nor inclination to knock down arguments that I wasn’t making or to refute positions that I never took. But I knew it was exactly what would happen. Because it’s what ALWAYS happens.
Simply put, you cannot have an internet rape debate. If you attempt to, nothing, absolutely NOTHING, good will come of it. Without blaming anyone or casting any asperions on anyone, I am confident in declaring it is effectively impossible to have a casual, dispassionate, and logical discussion on the topic amongst layman. This is one topic, that if it even needs to be debated, should be done by professionals in the field (health care, law enforcement, etc) and with numbers and studies; no one and nothing else.
I do not apologize for anything I said yesterday, nor do I take responsibility for the ideas that were imputed to me that I neither said, nor implied, nor endorsed. I will continue to advocate any and everything that might help prevent crime of any sort, because to my mind’s eye – trying to prevent someone from becoming a victim is not now, nor ever will be equivalent to saying that “the victim had it coming” or “the victim didn’t do enough to stop it” (even if they failed to take the precautions I advocated). I cannot be anymore clear than that. If people still have a problem with it, so be it.
http://helpandhealing.org/PreventionAcquaintanceRape.htm
http://www.aaets.org/arts/art13.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/rpe/index.html
This. I shoulda left with you yesterday.
I still stand by my thoughts and opinions. Still, if I had paused and recognized this sooner I wouldn’t be considered an evil, insensitive @sshole deserving of dying in a fire. Oh well.
***I shoulda left with you yesterday.***
If you had known what I had known, I’m guessing you would have. I read the topic, and knew how it would end before it even started. It’s just not a topic that lends itself to casual conversation.
So true…
funny thing is, the reason why most crimes go unreported is because the professionals are still people who harbour the same dangerous stereotypes than ‘laymen’ people do.
there is a reason why, here a woman police officer is automatically on SA calls (if the victim is a woman). it is why so many women dont want to go to court to face questions from the Crown (aka DA) on what she was wearing, doing, drinking, saying, how was she dancing etc…
i get taking personal responsibility to protect this house (aka my body), but this dialogue is tired and not getting us anywhere. we need to talk more about the perpetrators and not just the victims. the responsibility cannot just be one-sided.
You know what? I think you bring up an interesting point (that got lost in the maelstrom). How does the legal system play into all this? Do rape shield laws now bar Defense Attorneys from using the “provocative dress” defense? If so, why? Are there constitutional implications associated with banning certain defenses? (Any legal heads on here?)
The responsibility is one-sided. Men who rapre are responsible, nobody else, period.
I’m not now or before advocating “responsibility” for women I’m advocating “preventitive measures” however effective they might be. The measures I am suggesting are those already communicated by many rape prevention focused organizations, so it doesn’t logically follow that they should be “offensive” when I advocate them. I understand why it happens, but that’s another topic for another day…
All that said, what can be done? Let’s talk about it strictly from the men’s side. What can be done by individual men to fix this problem? Can there be any doubt that some men have been presented with Rape Awareness information, have been taught that “no means no” and yet still commit rape? I realize that rape is not on the DSM (nor is it ever going to be if past is prologue) but it seems to me that this is not a one-time abberrant decision made by an otherwise normal individual. It is an angry and frustrated person looking to assert power who uses violence to resolve that anger and frustration. To me that is a damaged person with some level of disorder (I consider people who abuse children sick for the exact same reason.)
How do you prevent that? How do you screen for it (to perhaps get that person professional medical help)? Would psychotherapy help? If not, then what will? This isn’t intended as a logic device either, I’m not asking rhetorical questions here I really am at a loss to think of what can be done other than simply incarcerating a person (which of course is retroactive, and not preventitive)?
Happy to listen to any reasonable suggestions.
A commenter yesterday presented some facts that r.apists usually r.ape over and over again. To me that indicates “education and awareness” is not the issue. From my POV, I agree with your comparison r.apists to pe0philes.
Most men are completely turned off by a woman who doesn’t want it. Those who are not turned off then have to make that extra step to knowingly physical violate another person. (I’m not sure it’s inherently wrong to be ar0used. Acting on it is another issue. I think that’s another discussion all together though.)
I believe men that do this have a mental illness. I believe mental illness can be treated and managed. I also believe offenders should be prosecuted and separated, when possible, from the potential to reoffend. I also believe in evil. I’m not sure what else there is.
” A commenter yesterday presented some facts that r.apists usually r.ape over and over again. To me that indicates “education and awareness” is not the issue. From my POV, I agree with your comparison r.apists to pe0philes.”
THANK YOU WIP! I didn’t see this comment before I made that last one (which ended up being very verbose unfortunately). Great summary of my thoughts on the futility of educating rapists
lol, well your verbose comment touched many more points. Just like we acknowledge basic personal safety measures will probably make a very difference in one’s vulnerability (for any violent attack), it’s fair to suggest that education will probably deter very few attacks. To me “very few” is worth acknowledging though.
I didn’t read the article so I can’t comment on whether Champ took the author’s words out of context. I think were pointing that out as well.
very difference = very small difference.
DQ- You just made the points that I made yesterday and asked the same questions I asked (which didn’t get answered then and most likely won’t get answered today). Ironically it’s just as ridiculous, lazy, and I would imagine just as insulting to an actual rapist to think that d*mn education will make a sick tormented soul with all kinds of psychological issues change his mind and say “wow, rape can really f*ck a girl/woman’s life up. maybe I’ll refrain from that rape I was planning on committing in a few years. it’s not cool after all.” I would imagine that a rapist has A) Been raped himself and felt that no one gave a sh*t B) Intended to inflict the most pain possible C) Wanted to exert control on his victim IN ORDER to make her feel terrible, not in spite of this fact. So what exactly are we educating THAT guy about?
A person who is compelled to rape for whatever reason WILL RAPE if he can get away with it, no matter how much d*mn education you give him and what the quality is. That ish will just be preaching to the choir, cause I’m sure he ain’t tryna hear it. If anything he’s listening to your strategies about how to stop rape so he can circumvent them. (Meanwhile you’re berating the individuals who actually want to stop the problem but are just as clueless as you, but I digress) How do you people not realize that that’s more or less what you’re suggesting. It’s actually LESS LIKELY to prevent rape than the risk reduction strategies you claim we beat women over the head with. So now what? Just keep blowing up on ppl who try to use logic for the sole purpose of prevention and call those individuals rapists while make obnoxious and unmerited claims that they hate women?
” How do you prevent that? How do you screen for it (to perhaps get that person professional medical help)? Would psychotherapy help? If not, then what will? This isn’t intended as a logic device either, I’m not asking rhetorical questions here I really am at a loss to think of what can be done other than simply incarcerating a person (which of course is retroactive, and not preventitive)?”
I can hear the birds chirping…
“A rapist” can be your homeboy. It can be an otherwise normal (even upstanding and high functioning) guy who made a horrible decision because he does not understand the concept of consent, or his judgment was impaired at the moment, or he lives in a society that reinforces the belief that he is entitled to a woman’s body. Like the former friend of mine who raped my homegirl. He could be in a room with you and you would never once come even close to suspecting that he was “sick” or “evil” or anything less than perfectly cool. There are tons of men walking around who have sexually assaulted women, and no one knows. In fact, THEY might not even know, because they thought it was okay to take it because she was drunk and incoherent and had flirted earlier.
This is why educating men about rape, sexual assault, and consent is the key, not constantly preaching “common sense” to women. As many people have said, we already do this and it is not effective.
” he lives in a society that reinforces the belief that he is entitled to a woman’s body”
I really respect your opinion. I really do. I also respect your intelligence and the experiences that you have had living in this society as a woman, but I just don’t see this. I really don’t. We DEFINITELY live in an oversexualized society (we’re obsessed with it, especially our music). We live in a society that’s very sexist and patriarchical, but I really don’t get the message that a guy is entitled to a woman’s body. I get the message that the guys who women find attractive or desirable get showered with so much vag that they have to turn down offers, or they get bored with it. I get the message that women are just as horny as us but much more picky. I get the message that we have to dress, speak, act a certain way and that if we aren’t a certain height we can forget about it. I get the message that both genders are gonna stay deadlocked because women are relationship-oriented and men are sex-oriented. I get all these messages but I just don’t get the message that men are entitled to a woman’s body just because. I get the message that men can make themselves more attractive by changing behavior patterns. I get the message that money will make you infinitely more attractive, but I just NEVER EVER get the message that a guy is entitled to a woman’s body just because he’s a guy. I get the message that his life sucks if women don’t find him attractive. I get the message that being a good guy and having good intentions is just simply not enough (or even relevant) when it comes to being sexually attractive to women, but I just don’t get the message that men are entitled to a woman’s body, I’m sorry I’m’ trying to but I just don’t see it. Perhaps you could provide some examples to support this so I can at least see where you got that conclusion.. (I’m being serious btw)
Um, all the guys on the street who catcall and take to the next level by grabbing ass. There are a stunning number of these guys. My past trip to NYC resulted in no less than 8 incidences of my ass/body being grabbed or touched.
When/if you hear your boys talk about “taking the p*ssy” don’t laugh that off…even if he says he was “just playing.” It’s not funny.
When/if you hear locker room talk from your boys that alludes to rape (man, she was soooo drunk, she probably don’t know half the sh*t we did), don’t condone that behavior. It’s not admirable.
When/if you hear a man talking about how sometimes you just have to know how to coax your woman into it…”she might say no, but I know she means yes,” don’t co-sign that. It’s not right.
Basically, if men could just find some way to think about a man saying any of those things in regard to their wife, sister, mother or daughter, and act accordingly (within reason) the men with those beliefs would realize that it’s not women who are “tripping.” It may spark them to reconsider some things after some deliberation and it may not. But, it’s worth a try so that this notion of “boys will be boys” doesn’t continuously get passed down from this generation to the next.
I know I get a lot more when folks who are close to me check me than I do if they just let me causally ride it out and be ignorant at best and potentially dangerous at worst.
@Mo- Vss- I hear you. I never hear men joking like that. Most of the guys I know joke about the constant contradictions of chick logic. They joke about how delusional so many women are (particularly with regard to their ego and perception of value). But I NEVER hear them joke like that. The only time I heard anybody make a “take the p*ssy” joke was when Dave Chappelle was talking about Pepe Le Pue the cartoon and he did it in the context of pointing out how subtly that cartoon was promoting rape, so he actually joked about it for a good cause (awareness). I will be on the lookout for suspicious talk though now that you taught me what type of buzz words to look for.
But you know, after hearing everyone talk about how ANY guy could be a potential rapist (Barack Obama included) it’s really depressing for two different reasons. One, I feel as though my cousins, sisters, and aunts will NEVER be safe in this world, and two I feel that no matter what good I do in this world many women will always have their rapist spidey sense on just waiting on ANY damn thing I say or do to interpret it to mean that I’m a potential rapist. It was annoying but not nearly as damaging when this hyper-awareness had to do with sexuality. The down low brother being the boogeyman I can shrug off and just say “Well if she’s dumb enough to assume I’m gay just because she’s paranoid, I don’t want her dumb *ss” but this is a whole new animal. It’s really a lot more hurtful and divisive than racial profiling or stereotypes could ever be imo, and it’s a very tough pill for the entire community to swallow…so sad and frustrating (this whole topic is)…
‘But you know, after hearing everyone talk about how ANY guy could be a potential rapist (Barack Obama included) it’s really depressing for two different reasons. One, I feel as though my cousins, sisters, and aunts will NEVER be safe in this world, and two I feel that no matter what good I do in this world many women will always have their rapist spidey sense on just waiting on ANY damn thing I say or do to interpret it to mean that I’m a potential rapist.’
OK, so do you want women to take responsibility for their bodies and be vigilant and careful (as champ suggested) to prevent r.ape or not? or do you only want us to do that until it starts making YOUR life more difficult?
i’m sure that if i went out tonight wearing hotpants and a small top and got drunk off my a$$ and flirted with some guy, and then he r.aped me, that it would be my fault for not being careful enough- but if we ARE ‘careful and vigilant’ then you find it upsetting because you are a ‘nice guy’ and we shouldn’t be suspicious of you?
This. I think this is how you get work done.
Uhh all of that was addressed multiple times by several people. You were obviously absent though. The “no means no” campaign has largely been ineffective because it never addressed the root of the problem regarding consent and rape. Similar to the “Just Say No” campaign was ineffective because it didn’t address the reality of drug use. The way “No Means No” is presented is problematic because it is taught from a stance of avoiding a rape conviction. The books Yes Means Yes goes into the problem in greater detail. (http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Means-Visions-Female-Without/dp/1580052576)
Secondly, you present a false view of rapists, that was also addressed yesterday. In that they represent some ninja lurker status. No. A rapist could and has been anyone. If you read one of the many stories yesterday one of them pointed to the fact that one woman here was raped by neighborhood boy that her mother wanted her to get to know at a party with people there in front of them. There have been many instances when this has happened. Pam Grier comes to mind as a celebrity who had pretty much the exact same thing happen to her. No one cared that he did because he had a reputation as good guy and possibly never committed any other crimes including something like J-Walking.
Rape manifests itself, in the majority of cases, because it is believed and reinforced by society that women do not have any autonomy. They do not own their own being. So if that manner is not addressed, the fact that women ARE people, we’re not going to have any productive conversations regarding reducing rape. Not-so-funny enough one of the male commenters yesterday gave a real life example of this unbeknownst to him. He asserted the notion that if he gave a woman head then she should EXPECT that she owes him sex because she had the gaw to turn him on. That’s pretty much the most succinct example I can give about the belief that woman do not own their bodies.
As long as a since of ownership is there and as long as women aren’t seen as “people” then we can’t get anywhere. We need to humanize the discussion. Which includes listening to the stories of rape survivors. It includes shutting up when they express genuine fear that it may happen again. It means being able to empathize. It means that survivors experiences take privilege over yours. It means actually engaging with the people regardless of how uncomfortable the stories make you. And most importantly it means not acting like a petulant child because you are getting called out on offensive and triggering statements regarding things you do not know everything about.
“Not-so-funny enough one of the male commenters yesterday gave a real life example of this unbeknownst to him. He asserted the notion that if he gave a woman head then she should EXPECT that she owes him sex because she had the gaw to turn him on.”
I’m pretty sure the commenter said that if afterwards the guy still had sex with her, he’s a rapist and should be prosecuted.
He wasn’t saying that she owed him sex. He, the commenter, obviously didn’t believe that because he went on to condemn the man’s actions as rape. He said, “Is the man to blame for taking the sex? YES!” and “Listen here…I didn’t say he wasn’t a rapist. He is.” He clearly said that the man was a rapist.
His reason for using that example was to show that the woman in that instance used very poor judgment. Because even though she owns her body and no one else is entitled to it and she has an absolute right to say no, “some men are not wired to accept your answer.”
That was not an example of how women don’t own their bodies. The woman in this case was aware enough and had ownership of her body when she put herself in a dangerous position in which a guy could simply ignore her desire to stop and just keep going. That was his point.
Uh yeah it was an example because he felt entitled to it because he gave her head.
I wouldn’t call this a dangerous position or one of the “high risk situations” I referred to yesterday. I don’t think it is at all unreasonable for a woman to expect a man to stop when she says stop, no matter what she may or may not have let him do. She could have any number of reasons for wanting him to stop and he is supposed to respect her enough to comply. Seems to me he would have taken it no matter what she said or did. Meaning he felt he owned her body at that moment.
“All that said, what can be done? Let’s talk about it strictly from the men’s side. What can be done by individual men to fix this problem?”
Make rape a different level of crime? where no evidence is needed outside of an accusation**?
Female accuses, prosecutors prove male was in the area, jury convicts, boom-boom-boom?
**”reasonable” accusation – for example, some chick in LA can’t accuse me of rape at 4:30 EST, because i’m in NY at that particular time**
I never considered rape as a form of mental illness. I don’t understand violent crime and my lack of comprehension puts me at a deficit. but thinking about the issues you raise it makes me wonder if rape isn’t the act of a sociopath, the person born without a conscience, the person who feels entitled to everything and takes it at will, regardless of all consequence, or in some cases, enjoying the pleasure that pain and degradation bring.
perhaps that is what makes this such a miserable situation. there is no prevention or treatment for sociopaths. they are natural predators designed to harm at will.
and maybe that’s where all of this awful blaming the victim comes in. maybe we are so at a loss to deal with the criminals that end up protecting them, with blame, with apologies, with ignorance, with misinformation.
cause the thing about sociopaths is, their greatest skill is making everyone else responsible for their crimes. and we’ve seen it right here, with horror that rapes creates. i love the idea of focusing on the perpetrator, of discussing the rapist, of what kind of person — male or female — does this ? why ? how ?
the more we know about the criminal, the better we can work as a society to protect the vulnerable.
i also want to give my love and respect to everyone who has written. this conversation is deep and divisive — which means it is very much worth having.
thank you
@esa- You’re right about sociopaths, they really f*ck it up for ALL of us. The victim primarily, but also the rest of society that means well when trying to prevent it. 2nd after the victim has to be other men who may have their issues, who may harbor a degree of resentment for women but ARE NOT and NEVER WILL BE rapists and take pride in NEVER taking anything from any woman that doesn’t make it clear that she wants it. I agree with focusing on predators and trying to establish patterns in their behavior in order to be more prepared to stop them and prosecute them easier if they do act. However, I do worry about the potential of this approach to start another Salem Witch hunt type of mentality among (understandably) paranoid women of all races. I can’t imagine how effed up it is to A) Be raped or B) Be falsely accused/convicted of rape. Sigh, your ideas are good. A very good start, but there’s still a lot more to be sorted out before we could implement a plan like that imo
I agree
“I will continue to advocate any and everything that might help prevent crime of any sort, because to my mind’s eye – trying to prevent someone from becoming a victim is not now, nor ever will be equivalent to saying that “the victim had it coming” or “the victim didn’t do enough to stop it” (even if they failed to take the precautions I advocated). I cannot be anymore clear than that. If people still have a problem with it, so be it.”
This.
Cheers for this…
I was admittedly out of the loop yesterday (work…who knew?), but when I went to catch up on the post I missed yesterday, I read the title…then looked at the # of comments, and thought, “he had to have royally effed this up.”
And you did. If you permit me to state the obvious and already over-stated, your language was poor, tone was insensitive, inferences dubious and your context incorrect.
BUT, I have to co-sign what has also been said: Had the post been “Properly Displaying the Goodies 101: A Guide to Proper Sexual Etiquette,” or something much awesomer, you would have been totally right in saying that women need to be conscious of what we’re putting out there and how much we’re drinking when we do put it out there. So, no need to backtrack on your sentiments–I think they’re right and women need to hear a man saying that. But not then. Not that way.
But you already know that.
Just adding in my cheers to you for owning up to it (twice now), and letting you know that despite my official doneness with the sh*t people say, I am actually looking forward to your video.
Women do not control what men do.
People make me angry all the time… Doesn’t mean I have license to beat or kill them or even do anything about it except walk away.
STOP perpetuating this idea that women can incite men to do something. Men are supposedly make with FREE WILL and have CHOICES.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for allll the times on blog and in real life, women are told we can’t change a man, we can’t control a man… but then when it comes to defending indefensible behaviour, what we wear determines what a man does and how he acts? as if he’s not in control of his actions all of a sudden? and to NOT see the problem with that???
Yes! Damn near every post on VSB tells us womenfolk that we need to fall back and let that man do him, don’t control him, don’t change him, we need to fall back (rinse and repeat) BUUUUT soon as I put on this freakum dress all bets are off he looses his mind. All it takes is me wearing my leggings and his sense of control is gone. Wow just wow.
THANK YOU!!! I’m sickened to my core every time I hear a woman repeat this tired worn out excuse/rhetoric they’ve been brainwashed into believing!!
I really, really don’t think anyone read what I actually wrote.
To be unequivocal about it:rapists cause rape, and our rape culture perpetuates it. End of story. You’ll never hear me say otherwise, nor did I say otherwise here.
I’m guessing you came here angry (possibly understandably) and decided to pile on in addressing what you thought I was saying because other women did. I didn’t say that, so, respectfully, chill.
When I referred to sexual etiquette ie watching what you drink, etc, I was speaking ONLY to the ways in which men and women can relate better in consenting sexual attractions and meetings-nothing more and nothing less.
I’d be just as angry as the rest of you at someone who said what you accused them of-thing is, I didn’t.
Let’s all calm down and actually read these things…not just infer based on the frustration that may have bee building due to other factors of comments.
I have read every comment and a frightening number of them, mostly from men, do have this sentiment that what a women wears ‘incite’ or affects what a man will do. Which is bogus. He has choice. He has free will.
Maybe you need to read more carefully.
You’re right, they do.
But the commenters were commenting on my post specifically. I was accused of saying that which I did not and, subsequently, don’t think they read very carefully–not my post, anyway. And sadly, it looks like you didn’t either…
Here’s the deal, Champ…can I call you Champ?
I lurk around these parts pretty often so I think have a pretty good sense of your (social) politics but, my friend (are we friends now?), with yesterday’s post and re-post you demonstrated that its time that you head on over to the nearest Women’s Studies department and register for Feminist Theory 101 or another similar introductory course.
To some extent, I bet yesterday’s pseudo end-of-days implosion is not entirely your fault. You probably grew up hearing, like the rest of us millennials that our opinions, despite their riculousness, always matter. This. Is. A. Lie.
Shall we delve deeper? We shall. Let’s take this from a standpoint of blackness. As a black person, nothing riles me up more than progressive white folks/friends trying to school me on racism. Between the two parties–myself and random granola white person–I am the expert. Not only because I have taken time to study the systems of racism but because I have experience as a victim of racism. The way I see it, as a person who has never experienced racism (because, as a white person, you are on the side of the system even if you are down with my cause…kudos!) your opinion is just simply not as valid as mine. White people have the privilege of not really, on a visceral level, understanding racism. An even better maybe more relatable scenario, given your love of basketball (see..i told you, I lurk) would be if someone (let’s say this someone has watched a total of 2 bball games in life) tried to share their opinion that ‘college basketball is sooooo much more competitive/better/awesomer than NBA.’ I mean sure, its their opinion, and it matters…just not to you.
That basically sums up my opinion about your post yesterday. Rape is the consequence of a system of patriarchy embedded in our culture, and homie you failed to recognize your privilege in this specific context before you went off spouting an ‘opinion’ about women and rape and (gasp!) accountability. You would have been better off writing a post about how men can stop rape…using your expertise, as a man, as the basis for your arguments.
Anyways, look, I agree that you should be able to express your opinion about whatever the subject matter. But you should also just know that sometimes your opinion might, at best, not really matter and at worst (as seen yesterday) offend. Sometimes it’s best to keep it to yourself.
I should say that it’s very clear that you were upset to have caused hurt among your readership and that is truly admirable. Caring>not caring. Looking forward to your next (less inflammatory maybe?) post. I’ll be lurking.
@ Thatgalmalpal- I’m calling you back out of lurkdom to answer this VITAL question. Since you said this
” You would have been better off writing a post about how men can stop rape…”
How can men stop rape? I got my notepad ready, but no one is giving me any answers….
I gave you a whole list and you feigned illiteracy… I went point by point and answered your questions from previous points. You aren’t interested in actually knowing.
Remember SweetSass you’re to “emotionally close” and “sensitive” to this subject matter so your opinion on rape doesn’t matter. You put it all out there for them and folks keep playing deaf. Sickening.
ba da ba ba ba I’m lovin’ it. Well stated.
As a long time reader (2008), I am kind of disappointed in the reaction of the many readers to a topic that is deemed controversial. Please keep in mind that you are reading a person’s opinion. As a writer, if the material written offends, there should righfully be an observance of such offense. To apologize for what you have written on a topic, no matter how incendiary or contrary to fact, research etc, isn’t honest. In that I mean that if the material is contrary to one’s opinion, shouldn’t there be an educated discussion about the topic? I say this because this is similar to celebrities being attacked by the public for what they say. If you don’t like what the champ and panama have to say, don’t read the material. If the comments in the thread aren’t to your liking, explain why you disagree. To attack someone you know nothing about based on assumption of sex, education level and such on a public blog comment section is ignorant. I say this because my statement upthread caused some malaise:
Champ,
You had nothing to apologize for. the message was clear and concise. Men and Women need to be taught how to be men and women. If there was backlash, Im guessin it was due to projection. Men shouldnt get pissy drunk cause we all know what testoserone does for them. Women shouldnt expect said men not to oggle at them if they’re rocking pants that are adorned with “juicy” in old english print while downing multiple shots. Any sane person can tell you that pheromones and alcohol are a quick recipe for carnal ignance
With that being said, educating both sexes about biology solves a lot of these issues that have been plaguing us for 200 thousand some years.
Peace
Taking a quote from what I posted and disagreeing with it is fine. I encourage disagreement because it encourages education. Again, it was upsetting to hear the replies assuming that I was a man, wasn’t “educated” and somehow a woman hater. Spinning the statement to say that I encourage rape is incredibly disingenuous, and was downright evil. I remember when VSB was a place for people to voice their opinion and should disagreements arise, the topic would be debated. If what I wrote above was taken out of context, I have no control over that. If what the champ wrote struck some nerves, he is an adult and will handle it in the way he sees fit. Look, I’m already guessing that I’m gonna be attacked based on this post, and I am fine with that. To disagree about the nuances of what rape is, what it doesn’t mean and how it happens is part of the learning process
What I wrote above was directly aimed at what the author wrote, not what someone’s else comment may or may not have said, because frankly, I usually don’t read what other people write in the comment section. I read what the author writes, and comment on said topic. I hope this is clear enough.
To VSB, keep writing, and I’ll keep reading. Loyal reader since 08
Peace
Ogling is not the rape as raping someone. Booty pants are made for ogling… not for rape.
*same
well since you’ve decided to say it twice, clearly you really want people to get your message.
all i’ll say is that you can believe what you want to believe. and repeat it as often as you like. it’s nothing most woman haven’t heard before. and clearly will continue to hear until the end of time.
and for those who didn’t get pissy drunk, didn’t wear juicy pants and still got assaulted – i guess we’ll just ignore that all together right? oh and for those who did get drunk and wore a short skirt and got assaulted… now she knows what to do to avoid it next right right?
you are entitled to feel as you do. when you put a comment up in a public forum, you also put your opinion out there to be commented upon. i disagree wholeheartedly with your stance on this subject. that is my right.
“Men shouldnt get pissy drunk cause we all know what testoserone does for them.”
What does it do? I honestly don’t know what you think it is we all know about alcohol and testosterone levels in men. Because, honestly, I thought the more alcohol a man had in his system the LESS testosterone he secreted. If you know something different please expound. Don’t post up psuedo-science and expect people to take it as fact though.
I understand what The Champ was trying to say and I appreciate his apology, though I think that VSB is an inappropriate forum to engage in this type of discussion. While I think his post and its approach was, at best, misguided, I get that he is trying to say that women need to be smart. The onus is on men to not rape, of course, and it is NO woman’s fault if she is assaulted, but women need to use common sense. If a man drives his convertible Porsche into South Central at night and leaves the door unlocked, is it his fault that his car gets stolen? Of course not! It’s the thief’s fault (or thieves’ fault). They are the ones who acted unethically and unlawfully. But could the man have done some things to protect his vehicle? Perhaps, and that’s all that The Champ was trying to say. The vast majority of rapes are committed when alcohol is involved, so it would behoove people to not become inebriated, and to also keep an eye on their drink in case someone tries to slip a date rape drug in it. The bottom line is, we (women) cannot control what a rapist does, unfortunately. All we can do is try to reduce our risk. There needs to be more campaigns/marketing strategies/school assemblies/etc. geared towards teaching men what consent means and that sexual activity cannot and should not take place in the absence of that consent. But until that day comes, women need to protect themselves. Even some women–even some feminists–agree. The woman who wrote this article got a lot of flak for it http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-06-01/girl-talk-why-drunk-is-a-feminist-issue/
It is unfortunate that there is this idea of a ‘perfect victim.’ She is chaste, sober, fully clothed, walking around in the daytime, and not flirtatious. Anything outside of these criteria and society casts blame on her. The perfect, blameless victim is also (usually) white (though not always, as you will see in a couple of the examples below) because black women are hypersexualized and rarely seen as anything but wanton. Look at the Duke rape case. Look at the recent NYC police officer case. Look at the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case. Look at the Kobe Bryant case (because she was a groupie, people automatically assumed, before any evidence even came out, that there was NO WAY she was raped). The world we live in is effed up. It doesn’t teach men to not rape, it teaches women to not get raped, and then blames them for what happens. Because of this, we need to try to reduce our risk as best we can. It’s never any woman’s fault though, let’s make that clear. At least we can all agree with The Champ on that one. Sincerely, A Loyal VSB Reader.
The issue with saying women need to use common sense is that it didn’t need to be said, and what did need to be said–what men can do to educate themselves on rape and sexual assault–went mostly unsaid.
I read yesterday’s post. I’m not offended.
I agree that “No always mean no,” and that both genders should be educated on how to act around each other, especially when alcohol prevents people from being able to legally consent to sex.
I would like to hear more opinions on who shoulders the full legal responsibility if both man and woman drink more than they should, have sex although neither one of them can legally consent since the consumption of alcohol prevent them from being able to? Both should.
If one party is sober and s/he rapes another whose consumption of alcohol prevents him/her from being able to to legally consent and/or say no, s/he should take full responsibility for raping the person.
I’m also for teaching men and women how not to put themselves in certain situations because being unaware does increase the likelihood of being hurt. I disagree that this suggestion is insensitive, enabling rapists, or contradictory. I admit one can still get hurt horribly with all the preparation and knowledge in the world.
I recognize that minor surface differences of rape survivors, whether they’re avid alcohol & illicit drug user/abusers, non-drinkers & non-drug users, have explicit past-sexual conduct in the public & private space, virgins, prefer wearing their birthday suits in the public space, or like covering your entire body with layers of clothes do not prevent rapists from assaulting any survivors.
I would definitely like to be aware of various techniques to employ while resiting an ongoing rape.
“I would like to hear more opinions on who shoulders the full legal responsibility if both man and woman drink more than they should, have sex although neither one of them can legally consent since the consumption of alcohol prevent them from being able to? Both should.”
I asked this same thing yesterday and never got a direct answer. Just answers that hand nothing to do with the content of my question.
That is because it was a confusing question WIM. I thought you were asking what was wrong with two drunk people having consensual sex with each other.
I see nothing wrong with two people having consensual sex whether they are sober or drunk. To me, rape is when one person does not want to have sex, tries to get away and cannot. When two drunk people wake up and realize they had sex with each other, that’s different than two drunk people waking up and one feels they were raped.
While people can be drunk and have sex with each other, both being drunk doesn’t make rape an impossibility.
That is neither here or there since many rapes do not involve alcohol.
Re: The blog and the comments. The thing about commenting on a blog is people will hold you to what you said and to how they interpreted it to mean. None of us are exempt from receiving a response to what we said. We can either a.) explain how our comment was interpreted differently than what we ment or b.) own up to what we said, including the responses to what we said.
I agree with the person upthread who said that we cannot be responsible for what we did not say.
” I see nothing wrong with two people having consensual sex whether they are sober or drunk.”
But many people do though. Also many people think no woman would ever allow more than one man to have sex with her at one time. That’s always rape in their opinion. Also some think that sex is NOT CONSENTUAL if the man didn’t ask out loud “Hey is it cool if I slide my penis in there now?” and wait for her to say “Why yes, I thought you’d never ask.” Or maybe that’s not even enough, I think someone said she’s gotta actually put it in with her hand or it’s rape. But God forbid a male point out this grey area of communication. He’s enabling rapists, participating in rape culture…scratch all that HE IS A D*MN RAPIST HIMSELF!
Justmetheguy,
I don’t believe any of that, personally, and don’t think of those things. Not to say that no one has ever defined rape the way you did. At least, I can see why the grey area examples you illustrated didn’t show up in my thinking for what I have observed people to do and say. I will always view rape as sex imposed on a person without their consent and while preventing them from getting to safety. I think that grey areas should scare a dude from having sex with anyone who wasn’t sure if she wanted to sleep with him, and from having sex with a drunk girl.
@ A Woman’s Eyes, yeah I don’t even think most women believe these things, but enough do to make it alarming. I personally don’t enjoy having sex with drunk girls (tipsy is ok at times), they tend to act like 5 year olds and not remember what the h*ll u just said. Feels like sexing a dummy or a stranger. They also have a VORACIOUS sexual appetite that I do not enjoy trying to fulfill (over and over and over) so I’m not even speaking about myself with these grey areas (which so many commenters yesterday assumed). I think you’re right that that should scare men from having sex with drunk girls, but I would agree with you that that shouldn’t be called rape unless she specifically asked him to stop, said no, or screamed while putting up a fight (we ALL know the difference between pleasurable moans and actual screams of agony). The reason I say that is because ACTUAL rape, the kind that comes to most of our minds (or even the types that many commenters highlighted yesterday such as with the police officer) is much more egregious and I don’t think the previous cases should be put anywhere near the same category as the last. (not to say those guys shouldn’t be punished at all, but it should NOT be a felony imo). Also I think the whole “express written consent” business is just flat out bullsh*t. I can count on my hands the number of times I asked a chick if we were going to have sex, or if she minded if I inserted. ZERO, and I KNOW I’m not the only one who’s yet to be THAT d*mn careful. So to say there isn’t a grey area is to sound pretty ignorant and biased because clearly there is. (not saying you said that) It doesn’t excuse men from responsibility it just demonstrates the nuances of communication, sex, and the concept of “rape” that a lot of ppl have. Actual rape is the bigger issue though and sadly after all this discussion we have no actual solutions (as usual) sigh…
“but I would agree with you that that shouldn’t be called rape unless she specifically asked him to stop, said no, or screamed while putting up a fight (we ALL know the difference between pleasurable moans and actual screams of agony)”
Some people leave their bodies while they are being violated, especially if it’s not the first time. They do not scream no or try to fight because their self-preservation defense mechanism is disassociation. They freeze up and mentally check out. That doesn’t mean they weren’t ACTUALLY RAPED.
I didn’t write this for you, because so many responded directly to you and you act like no one attempted to answer your questions or explain that which you seem to willfully refuse to understand. I wrote it for anyone who comes across this and think that this “actual rape” bull sounds valid.
I guess I’ve just been scrolling past this (perhaps my subconscious just put this on automatic nignore) but seeing niksmit’s comment made me stop to read…There is no such thing as “ACTUAL rape”. There is just rape. Period. It doesn’t always happen like in the movies or on SVU.
There are no levels or other distinctions because then it becomes about the victim and it shouldn’t. Ever.
You are mischaracterizing what women consider to be rape in order to rip it apart, this is called the Straw Man Fallacy.
You don’t have any data to support what you are saying and just want to make something exaggerated up and then tear it down to make yourself look good.
I’ve read every comment and yet to see someone propose that polyamory is always rape or two tipsy people having consensual sex is rape.
I don’t believe that all rapes can be legally prosecuted.
In the scenario of two equally inebriated people having sex, my opinion is that they both messed up, but we cannot prosecute that. If one or both of them say that they feel they were violated by the other, then we just have to accept that. The fact that the legal system cannot deal with their situation does not change the fact that one or both of them is now dealing with the same post-assault fallout that a prosecutable assault survivor confronts.
Niksmit, you sound like an attorney. And I do think attorneys have to think about how they can win a rape case against someone charged with it.
Having said that, I don’t think men realize what happens when you report it. You cannot bathe, take a shower, comb your hair, wash out the guy’s semen and saliva from your body. You cannot change clothes or shoes. Everything you are wearing, all your clothes, underwear is collected so it can be tested for DNA evidence. You have to go in a room to have your body swabbed for DNA evidence. Every part of your body that was violated has to be scrapped and swabbed and bagged for forensic to make a rape kit that is essentially your DNA and his DNA in a package for a laboratory to check for his DNA. Your naked body is photographed, including visible injuries and bruising. You are cold, afraid, embarassed, traumatized. I will never forget a woman old enough to be my mother walking into the building in the dead of winter after a rape kit had been done on her. She was wearing a hospital gown and paper slippers with a blanket over her. She looked up and me and said, “I was raped”. Some women have to have surgery to repair the damage done to them. Some go into immediate sex assault counseling to deal with the PTSD, not being able to sleep, the hypervigiliance, nearly jumping out of their skin if someone taps their shoulder.
This is why some women don’t report it to the cops. I don’t know that this woman would have reported it if it wasn’t for the 911 call made on her behalf, and the police being involved. What if there was no 911 call and no police? It takes massive courage to walk into a police station or call 911 post-rape.
@ A Woman’s Eyes- Wow, that description of what it’s like to report a rape was bone chilling and eye-opening. I understand EVEN MORE now why these incidents aren’t reported. There’s gotta be a better way to do it…I mean I understand the reasoning behind doing it that way, but d*mn…
Unfortunately, brotha that is the way it is. And truth be told, we couldn’t change the process without corrupting the legal process to begin with. I’ve seen many people address the issue from an emotional standpoint (men and women), some have addressed it from a logical standpoint, but few if any, have addressed it from a philosophical standpoint.
The entire court system stands on the idea, that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, that is the premise. So, the only way a court could find a man guilty of rape is by evidence; the only way to acquire evidence is by the process the woman talked about earlier. DNA must be collected, injuries must be shown and documented, and DNA must be matched in order for a rapist to be charged.
We could easily say eff that, and if a woman accused a man of rape, we could easily state that that man is guilty and put him in jail or say that he is supposed to prove that he didn’t rape the woman; however, we would need to corrupt the entire court system to do that. It would set the precedence that not all crimes deserve objective interpretation or judgement and in a few years, we would see levels of corruption in our legal system completely unrelated to the rape issue.
As for education: if education had been successful in fighting crime, we would have already tried it; we would’ve educated our kids that stealing is wrong, that violence is wrong, that driving under the influence of drugs and alcohol is wrong, that lying is wrong – but we already do, and it doesn’t work, that’s why we’re prison has and will always exist.
Could we probaly come up with a more humane way of helping the victims of rape to come out? Definitely! However, that would require a lot less midslugging, and a lot more objective thinking. The fact is, as with any crime, if people do not report; if people don’t “snitch”, then justice can never take place. The only way we’re going to be able to help prevent rape is by identifying the people who are guilty of it, and anyone else who looks at it from a different angle, isn’t aiming towards a solution, but is simply wishing to assess blame.
This. I can’t even imagine.
And that’s why being raped seems like the worst thing that can happen to me. I play at being hard a lot but ultimately I don’t know if I could survive it like many here have. And why I cling to anything that may help reduce the chance of it. So even if it does happen I can feel like I did everything I could to prevent it. Maybe I’m setting myself up for an even harder fall by doing that though.
“I would like to hear more opinions on who shoulders the full legal responsibility if both man and woman drink more than they should, have sex although neither one of them can legally consent since the consumption of alcohol prevent them from being able to?”
I thought about this more yesterday. I stated that a man always has the responsibility to, at least, protect himself and remove himself from the situation. But how is a man, who has judgment is also impaired by substance, supposed to magically “sober up” and make a more rationale decision? I’m not sure that makes sense. If his judgement is too impaired to recognize her is also impaired, is he ultimately and solely at fault assuming they are both adults? I wonder, from a legal perspective, what the answer is.
The answer is he goes to jail for rape. This is another one of those touch/grey areas when it comes to rape. Honestly, it seems to me (and is reinforced by some of the comments today), that the popular idea is the man is supposed to be the sole figure of responsibility/authority in these kinds of situations. Except when a woman says it’s not ok for him to be. Or doesn’t say that it’s not ok for him to be.
Or whatever.
I said as much in my comment yesterday. If you are a man, you should move forward as if you are responsible (whether you think you should be or not) for everything as it pertains to contact with women. Ev-ry-thing. Yes, 40 years of progress tells us that we are equal, and we are. But one thing social progress has not affected is that in the world of good intentions as a man you are always more responsible and you should approach it as if you have greater responsibility. Like your relationship with cops (if you are a black man), you should approach every date, liquor consumption, walk down the street, sexual encounter, move on the dance floor as if the greater responsibility is yours. And you will meet women who will try to tell you otherwise – that the responsibility is not yours – and that is what they are supposed to do. Some, feeling that your refusal to get drunk with them or your removing yourself from certain situations is a slight, may even call you soft, not heterosexual, a bitch-ass-nigga, or some other name in an attempt to attack your manhood. But it is your job as a man – with good intentions – not to listen….if for no other reason but your own freedom and survival. Live your life accordingly and teach young men the same for their freedom and survival.
All I can say is this, as the law currently stands, men have to be vigilant about not becoming rapists. You have to know your limits. I don’t mean to sound callous about this. There was a very long post yesterday by a man who listed all the ways he basically avoided touching any woman with a ten foot pole unless she made it extremely clear there was consent. And judging by the tone, it came from a place of mistrusting any woman as a potential rape-whistle-blower (which kind of mirrors mistrusting any man as a potential rapist…). But that’s how it is. I most certainly appreciate men preventing themselves from taking advantage of a vulnerable woman…but taking on a mistrustful attitude toward women as a result…is inevitable?
I wrote the post you refer to and I replied to the one above your comment. I trust women in most ways. I strongly believe in women and tis stubborn mule will listen to the ideas of a woman I know before a member of my gender. But that is independent of my own personal safety and survival because I have no guarantee that the women I meet are actually concerned about my personal safety or survival. I was raised by a crew of women and it is that crew of women that informed me early that regardless of what is said I as a man am responsible. I know a guy who is now a sex offender because at 18 he was not carful enough to find out if the girl he slept with was over 18 when she said she was. It might seem unfair, but he is responsible. Everything that I have learned about drinking with women, co-parenting with women , working with women, courting women, dating women, marrying women, sexual and other physical contact with women suggests I am always responsible, so I take care that I am on the right side of responsibility. And I do believe that more men with good intentions (i.e. not rape or assault) should do the same.
WIP you are absolutely correct. There is responsiblity on both sides of the gender the needs to held accountable. I know that the occurance of date rape is now more prevelant than assault rape. Yesterdays responses shows that the group wanted to lump them all together when convient and vise versa. This in its self prevents a learning experience and keeps the divide wide. We will never get anywhere if we don’t talk about it so we can better understands what divides us.
I know I said I was doing my last comment for this blog entry but I noticed this:
“I know that the occurance of date rape is now more prevelant than assault rape. Yesterdays responses shows that the group wanted to lump them all together when convient and vise versa. This in its self prevents a learning experience and keeps the divide wide. We will never get anywhere if we don’t talk about it so we can better understands what divides us.”
Which led to my thinking this:
Date rape means the person took their time to get to know you, your habits, what your weaknesses are while dating you and then raped you. Stranger rape (I think that’s what you meant by “assault rape”) is just a person whom you do not know, who may or may have been watching your daily habits in order to figure out how to rape you.
People who rob houses and kill people in it, often watch the people in their daily lives and plan how they will do it. Rape takes planning in a similar way. If it didn’t require planning then why do rapists have the foresight to get you to a second location away from risk of being caught and immediately apprehended, and away from the risk of your being able to get the hell out the room before he rapes you?
You are confusing a date with dating which again confirms my point of how society likes to jumble thing into one thing because it is easier to digest.
Dating creates familiarity with the person. A man can tell when he’s physically and emotionally hurting a woman he’s in a relationship with. I don’t believe that a man can rape his girlfriend/wife without knowing he’s hurting her, scaring her. Wouldn’t he notice her acting like she’s scared of him afterwards?
What specifically am I not understanding from your example? What situation in a relationship, sex and consent are you speaking of that is a grey area?
I seriously thought I was being slow in thinking that didn’t make much sense.
I’m thinking back. I’ve been very, very drunk. I’ve blacked out. (The worst look ever). That sh*t is scary. And if someone accused me of doing anything while I was drunk I would have had nary a clue or defense to say I didn’t. (Why is alcohol legal? LOL)
” I’m thinking back. I’ve been very, very drunk. I’ve blacked out. (The worst look ever). That sh*t is scary. And if someone accused me of doing anything while I was drunk I would have had nary a clue or defense to say I didn’t. (Why is alcohol legal? LOL)”
I heard a story about a dude that woke up from being blacked out drunk and saw “wanted for rape” flyers up with his face on them :O I’ll go ask my sister about it for the specifics (I wanna say it was in North Carolina), she’s the one that told me the story. Hopefully I can find a link. But to answer your question because it makes a looooooot ppl rich and has been legal for so long it’s part of our culture, meanwhile the thinking man’s drug is illegal and shunned by otherwise intelligent people of all races…go figure
If you murdered someone while drunk and then passed out you’d still be guilty of murder. Being drunk is not a defense. It can lower from 1st degree to 2nd degree murder but its not a complete defense that will get you off.
What this says is men shouldn’t go and get stinking drunk either. Just cause he doesn’t remember doing it doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. And it doesn’t mean he’s not responsible for it. Even if she was drunk too. If there are signs of rape he needs to go down for it. Period.
@- Anti-Cool- Yep, that’s exactly what I was suggesting. NOBODY should be getting blacked out drunk because it doesn’t excuse sh*t.
@SweetSass- You’re absolutely right. He’d still get prosecuted for murder. You’re both proving my point that getting drunk is not an excuse for reckless behavior. Which is all I was saying. Although I’m sure you wanted to stretch my statements into a theory that I think if the guy doesn’t remember then it’s not rape. Just do it, you know you want to
You can only be found GUILTY of a crime… you cannot be found GUILTY of being a victim. That is the difference…
If two people are drunk… killer and dead person… it still doesn’t matter that the dead person was drunk before they died.
STOP PUTTING VICTIMS ON TRIAL. Jeebus.
I really believe that alcohol doesn’t make men rapists. I think that some men just want to hurt women, and the alcohol they’re drinking is part of the fun for them. Sort of like having a drink before you watch football, only it is having a drink before he goes and rapes a woman. Most men when they are drunk are not rapists, are not intent to hurt women. But some are, whether they’re drinking, drunk or stone cold sober.
The reason why I say this is because most men are not rapists. It is no different than a man who beats women. He will beat his woman if he’s sober or drunk because it is already in him to want to hurt a woman. Ditto on rape. No different than those who have it in them to take someone’s life on the regular, or someone who has it in them to kill and eat someone’s remains.
I think this way because men who rape don’t do it anywhere. They do it where they won’t be caught. They won’t show up drunk at Target and try to rape someone in the middle of the room. They plan on how they will do it without getting caught so they can complete the act.
I reject the notion that rapists are most men. Most men do not rape.
” how is a man, who has judgment is also impaired by substance, supposed to magically “sober up” and make a more rationale decision? I’m not sure that makes sense. If his judgement is too impaired to recognize her is also impaired, is he ultimately and solely at fault assuming they are both adults? I wonder, from a legal perspective, what the answer is.”
If he raped her, he’s at fault and should be charged. (Earlier, I said that being drunk doesn’t make it impossible to rape)
Let’s remove “rape” and replace it with “assault and battery”. If he assaults and batters someone while drunk he is still legally responsible for his actions. The police can charge him with assault and battery. The person he assaulted can press charges. Of course he can argue in court that he was drunk and didn’t know what he was doing, but it doesn’t remove the charges and the trial coming up under those charges.
That idea makes sense. What if it wasn’t violent? What if the woman says she was drunk and she couldn’t consent (and many have stated they consider that r.ape)?
” That idea makes sense. What if it wasn’t violent? What if the woman says she was drunk and she couldn’t consent (and many have stated they consider that r.ape)? ”
It was difficult for her to get away and difficult for her to give consent. Maybe there was a threat of violence (Example: “Be quiet and I won’t hurt you” whispered in her ear). Maybe she was slurring so badly she couldn’t talk. Maybe she was passed out unconscious.
“She couldn’t give consent” sounds like he didn’t care whether he had her consent. Shit was going down no matter what she thought about it or was trying to say about it. That’s rape.
What I was taught, that is rape.
The deafult belief is that when hetero sex happens, the man initiated it unless it can be proven that the man did not initiate it. Women own sex, men receive sex from women (either consentually or by rape.)
Men are held to be responsible for their actions at all times while drunk (with regards to sex/rape). Not so much for women. So if they were both drunk, but neither can remember what happened, then by definition he raped her, but she didn’t rape him. Fin.
The analogy in the last paragraph is spot-on.
“I’m also for teaching men and women how not to put themselves in certain situations because being unaware does increase the likelihood of being hurt. I disagree that this suggestion is insensitive, enabling rapists, or contradictory. I admit one can still get hurt horribly with all the preparation and knowledge in the world.”
Best comment I’ve read this entire thread.
I am all for concealed weapons permits, and all manners of self defense classes and weapons training for women. I am all for harsh penalties for rape convictions. I am all for heads of families speaking up and saying “In this family we do not support rape, molestation, none of that. We respect the people in our family and do not have the right to their body. We do not hurt each other and threaten family into keeping it a secret.” I am all for men going to the police if a buddy brags about having raped someone. I am all for rape kits being processed immediately instead of sitting on shelves for years and years without being matched via their computer database of sex offenders and without prosecution. I am all for Take Back the Night being about how our family and friends and community had our back rather than how alone we were if we kept it a secret or ostracized we were when the secret came out. I am all an end to the venom aimed at rape survivors for being too fas’ and thinking she is grown because she is Black, female and under the age of 18 and the least valued and protected by her own community. I am all for family members banning certain members from the homes of their families for rape or molestation. I am all for parenting believing their daughters and sons words that her boyfriend or new husband won’t stop touching the kids. I am for strict screening of employers who are in positions to care for the vulnerable–children, elderly, people with illnesses who need care, people who are in a medical crisis.
I think that is the kind of community accountability that would make a difference reducing incidents of rape.
Hey everyone,
These are some healthy dialogues against rape and various techniques to apply while resisting ongoing rapes.
In addition to the others, I appreciate reading the self-preservation mechanism [disassociation], the equally inebriated messed up scenario where both survivor are dealing with the same post-assault fallout that a prosecutable assault survivor might confront, the details of what actually happen when a survivor reports rape, that getting drunk is not an excuse for rape and the various consequenses, concealed weapon permit, self defense classes, arsh penalities for rape convictions, ceasing the practice of silence within the immediate and extended family structure of rape survivors, supporting rape survivors instead of ostracizing them, and the venom being directed at the offenders not the survivors.
As a woman I agreed with his post from the previous day, so I’m really glad he didn’t just back track & wimp out on his viewpoint. I think addressing it in the way he did today was a very classy move **hats off to champ**
Men don’t have a voice in women’s conversations about rape. Men need to talk to other men about rape — about being raped, about being accused of rape, about what rape means.
All that in, it’s hard for me to give you kudos for not backing off an opinion you had no place to register in the first place. I know–women do that all the time, especially on the Internets. Do Better. Man-up.
And don’t be on here riffing. You don’t like what I said, call me nigga.
Let the takeaway be to not let the medium set the mode. Women get on the Internets reckless — all bets are off. Fussing, cussing, butting in, specious theories, baseless accusations, rock-dumb opinions — “look at my pussy!” “Stop looking at my pussy!” No decorum, no class –lady-like? “Fuck you, nigga.”
Well, fuck that. Leave dem shits be.
I been in the game a minute. One thing the Internets has taught me is We always have to be men. And don’t let anyone that isn’t you tell you what that means. Me included.
Take it, toke it or chuck it. I’m all out of fucks on that one, baby.
fini
“Women get on the Internets reckless — all bets are off. Fussing, cussing, butting in, specious theories, baseless accusations, rock-dumb opinions ”
This is not a trait solely exhibited by women.
Exactly.
Amanda Marcotte yestereday, Jimi Izrael today? LIke I said, y’all major.
lol. I was thinking the same thing.
I think the word is ‘infamous.’
Hey Jimi, don’t you have some kidie-porn to watch?
http://jezebel.com/5853116/
Just another FYI, I’ve personally moderated over 1000 comments today, mostly spam to make sure that everybody’s comment gets thru. I’m not sure why some folks comments keep going to spam. I know that’s frustrating. But I’m trying to keep up with it. Trust me when I say that going through 500 Ciailis ads is not the business. Just an FYI.
Preciate the due dilligence.
well done. I saw the post when it went up early so didnt see all the backlash that came after…..but I did think the post was tasteless and not your usual well done stuff. good apology
“I do not apologize for possessing the feeling I was attempting to convey. But, I do apologize for being too arrogant to realize how wrong it was for me to attempt to convey it here yesterday. It’s an issue too touchy, too sensitive, too nuanced, and too volatile for a person without a master understanding of the topic to address on a platform as big as VSB’s.”
What is this ‘feeling you were attempting to convey’?
You admit you were wrong to tackle this.
You admit you were out of your element.
You admit you need more education.
You admit it’s never a victim’s fault.
You admit your tone sucked and you were arrogant.
You admit your inferences were faulty.
If you admit you were wrong on all fronts, why not apologize?
+1
Last comment of this blog: Thank you for letting in the posts that were stuck in moderation just so people could say their piece. I appreciate that, PJack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1ocXCYUjQ
I’m a first time reader, directed here through another blogger, and I tell you, this will be the last time I come here. As a survivor of not only child hood abuse, but rape AND sexual assault from the ages of 8 to 13, I can tell you that you are a menace. I hope to never meet you because I can only imagine you’re worse than a closet racist. You say you were just “weren’t thinking” well that’s the same thing my kid says right before I whoop her over some nutso thing she’s done. Perhaps your mother should read your “I’m not sorry for the message I was trying to convey” When a MAN is wrong, and apologetic, he SHOULD BE SORRY!
It has it all over movies and the black community has it the worst, I haven’t met too many black women in my life that something of this nature hasn’t happened to, you should get into a place of trust with women and actually ask. It would screw you up, just make an anonymous poll on your site for people that comment all the time, you’d be shocked and hopefully \_____
take that seat.
Last night I prayed for the VSC (Very Smart Community). Today, I thank God for the beginning of the healing stage.
In her 2008 commencement address to Stanford, Oprah Winfrey said, “Nobody’s journey is seamless or smooth. We all stumble. We all have setbacks. It’s just life’s way of saying, “Time to change course.” She, perhaps more than any other person in modern history, ought to know. She goes on to counsel them to, “Check your ego at the door and check your gut instead. Every right decision I have ever made has come from my gut. Every wrong decision I’ve made was the result of me not listening to the greater voice of myself.”
VSC, we have a great voice, collective and individually. We must recognize the power and responsibility that comes with this and govern ourselves accordingly. Yesterday’s post and some comments reminded me of the hubris in Greek tragedies. I assert my belief that the post’s intent was not malicious, yet a blind man could see that the fallout was grave. Again, we all know the saying: with great power comes great responsibility. At best, yesterday’s post was irresponsible.
So, yes, I prayed for healing and forgiveness. And, I prayed that there would self-reflection and self-assessment. I prayed that God would find a way to comfort those who needed it and grant peace where torment was raging.
As the lyrics of “We Fall Down” remind us, “We fall down. But we get up. For a saint is just a sinner who fell down and got up.”
Champ, get back up again.
My final thoughts (don’t know why I’m so quote happy, but it’s just what I do) from Oprah: “Challenges are gifts that force us to search for a new center of gravity. Don’t fight them. You can take from every experience what it has to offer you. And you cannot be defeated if you just keep taking one breath followed by another. Every one of us gets through the tough times because somebody is there, standing in the gap to close it for us.”
Stand tall, VSC.
Please forgive any typos.
What is happening in today’s post is what Champ should have tried for in yesterday’s post.
There is still pain and powerful emotions here but there is less finger pointing and more listening which I think is leading to better understanding on all sides. It gives me hope that there is a way for VSB to tackle heavy issues like this in a way that makes everyone that wants to participate feel safe to do so and not like they have to come in guns blazing or like they won’t be heard fairly because of bias and bs.
May these bloggers truly learn better so they can do better and allow their readers to maybe be great too.
Co-sign
WIP has been posting really good stuff in here, too.
…I’m sure I’m the umpteenth person to show you this today, but:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tracy-clayton/in-memory-of-common-sense_b_1230988.html
As a sexual assault survivor (I was raped a year ago this month) I was actually shockingly surprised at the champ’s attempt to tackle such a “touchy” subject. Being that I understand what a “victim” goes through, the trauma, the guilt, the self blame and the breakdown of one’s spirit it would be easy for me to jump on the “champ’s an asshole for writing about this” bandwagon….only he ISN’T. I know, I too was shocked as I continued to read that I not only understand his point but I AGREED with his point. Do I think I deserved to be raped…hell no!…. however if we are going to have a discussion regarding gender politics then we must have an open and honest discussion. For starters we as women have unfortunately accepted that our only power is what lies between our legs (this is not true contrary to popular belief) and we use that “power” as a means of self worth and sometimes we forgo common sense and place ourselves in harms way. We have been socially conditioned to place the needs of men above our own and this sometimes can have disastrous results. That does not relinquish a sexual perpetrator’s responsibility it simply means that we as women understand that we live in a world that systemically and continually objectifies us, sexualizes us and places us behind our male counter-parts. This is nothing new and since most women know this then we have to be responsible for our own happiness and safety. Do not make it easy for a person to hurt you, emotionally, physically, or sexually and I think that was Champ’s point…maybe he was not eloquent enough for some of the readers in his approach
but then RAPE isn’t an eloquent subject….I take responsibility for placing myself around someone who was not a good person, not for being raped, there is a difference….maybe if people did not shy away from accountability they would realize that being accountable allows a person to heal and grow. It did for me….I hope this makes sense….:)
It makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
Thank you for reading my post….I find it is difficult for people to critique or even learn when they are extremely emotional, not that this subject should not warrant an emotional response (I completely understand) but many of the posts I’ve read where so “emotional” that I think the point of the article was lost….it’s strange to have people talk about something like it’s a topic when for people like me it’s our lives at stake…I wish some of the people on the post who were so callous in their response to the article would stop and think about what rape is and what it does to the people who experience it and most importantly its impact on our community….. again, thanks for reading my post
You’re quite welcome.
Rape has little or nothing to do with sexuality… all the time people who are not conventionally attractive are getting assaulted. Coma patients, elderly, corpses, children. It’s about the deviant mindset of the rapist.
If I had hateful rhetoric out there on the internets… and as a result, some psychopath took it to heart and went out and killed someone… (Gabby Giffords, comes to mind.) I would apologize. I would. You aren’t me, Champ. But I don’t understand how you sleep at night.
You think that example is extreme, well, you don’t know how the rapist mind works… Rapists think they are no different than other men. They think other dudes do the same things. They don’t notice the uncomfortable laughter of their fellow mates when they make rapey jokes or stay ish that is OTC. They look for excuses and justifications wherever they can find them… and by pointing out you think women lack common sense and that women can’t or shouldn’t be able to safely drink… you are building up a defense for these lowlifes.
Take this for example. In many countries, women cannot show ankles or wrists or go out of the house unaccompanied. The community agrees this is done so as to not incite men’s arousal and protect the women, ostensibly. It’s considered immodest. Now, these women… might need to leave the house one day. One of them leaves her house and gets assaulted by a man just waiting to find a woman by herself. When hauled before the community in the town square… It should only be HIM. But no, since the community decided that the rules for her are not to go out alone.. they drag her in there too. The man points to her and says, “Look, had she not been outside, this would’ve never happened.”
We’d call that society backwards and sexist wouldn’t we? Well… we do this all the time. “She was a groupie.” “She was a golddigger.” “She was a prostitute, it’s just like shoplifting.”
Look at the rape cop case in NYC where two offices entered and reentered an unconscious woman’s apartment 6-7 times. Both of them got off scot free with a slap on the wrist. WE ARE THAT BACKWARDS SOCIETY and YOU are contributing to the madness.
I intentionally stayed away from yesterday’s discussion and it soon regressed into pretty much what I saw coming. To the women who shared their stories, I want to say thank you and I hope you will continue to share in the hopes that your strength and courage might help another who is suffering. In reading through all of the comments yesterday one thing did stick out. There were a few commenters (I’m not going to name names) who seemed to still be completely immersed in the grief and pain associated with a heinous crime committed against them. To those people, my heart goes out to you and I sincerely hope that you are able to reconcile all of the feelings you have inside you. May the peace of God be unto you.
I hope many men will really examine their views of women, consent, sex and rape after this shyt storm… I really do. And I’m sooooo proud of the many men on this site who at first didn’t get it, but sought out understanding, read our stories, gave it some intelligent thought and now GET IT, but even if they don’t, agree to never ever ever repeat the words, “Rape is wrong, BUT…”. There is no “Rape is wrong BUT…” ever, ever, ever. Tell a women to be careful and ‘don’t be stupid or you’ll get hurt’ all day, we do appreciate it… but never mention rape in that same sentence. C’mon man. I’m so saddened, as a survivor, that this is so hard to utter, understand and admit. Let your ego go for a second, read all of our stories, and please pass the message on to your sons, your boys, your homies, whomever. We all know a man who jokes about “taking it” or “she got what she deserved” or “women are teases…” or “she said yes… at first” DONT CHUCKLE at that man – CHECK HIM. We as women need you to CHECK men like that!! If you are so concerned about protecting us, actually protect us dammit! Not just when it’s convenient or makes perfect sense! …meanwhile I remember both times I was assaulted as if it were yesterday…
Why is it so hard for some to simply agree that, YES, me can talk about rape, but do your homework first and give the subject as much respect as you would if your daughter was raped? In order to save a life? In order to stop reinforcing the dangerous idea that women can prevent rape? Why is it so hard to admonish a way of thinking that straddles both sides of the fence and thoroughly confuses our youth? Teen girls and boys are being raped in school bathrooms for God’s sake!! Yet you wanna hold onto your ego so bad on a frikkin website! Please, someone explain this to me, I want to understand.
I posted yesterday (quite late) and I want to add my two cents. I don’t think you had good intentions Champ. I don’t think you had any intentions at all which is probably why you were shocked when you received the response you did. Gauging from your post, it appears you get that. I won’t harp on it. I don’t think I need to preach to you about where the “blame” of rape will lie. I think you know that and knew it yesterday, as well.
RAINN (rape, abuse, incest, national network) has a few things to say about diminishing risk:
be aware, avoid isolated places, trust instincts, and the list goes on. They state that sexual assault is a crime of “motive and opportunity” which I interpret as–rapists look for who they perceive as vulnerable. And yes, drinking does make you vulnerable.
Admitting that we can work to diminish risk does equate to administering blame. Neither does being responsible for yourself mean that when something does happen, you were responsible. In my opinion we are responsible for no one’s actions but our own. I can accept that I am responsible for me when I go out or when I interact with others. I will not assume someone else’s actions towards me. Maybe im obtuse…but I don’t think Champ was trying to tell me that. However, you recognize your tone was arrogant and authoritative–you spoke with authority on a topic where you have none. Not because you’re a man…but because you recognize yourself you just don’t know enough about it to have spoken as you had. I accept that. And I am sure you learned from that. We all have to learn those lessons sometimes.
I just wanna hit on this idea of opening dialogue. Dialogue does not happen when you ask someone what they think, and when their response is not your ideal, then their opinion is dismissed. If dialogue isn’t what you’re looking for, then that’s cool. But if you want to open convo for dialogue, then you gotta be open for the ish that comes out. Also, when you dialogue you gotta ask questions–not only make accusations. When you dialogue, you gotta clarify–constantly. When you dialogue the goal is ultimately mutual understanding…not always agreement. I repeat, for some people though, dialogue is tiresome and some topics aren’t for dialoguing. I get that. However, as a strong ally of victims and staunch supporter of victim’s rights, I don’t wanna right Champ off or anyone else off from yesterday who may have offered a disenting view. There were many different view points (on either side of the convo…whatever that means) that got lumped together. It seemed to become a “rape is never the victims fault” and all other dissenters became “rape apologists.” I dunno, I just don’t think all voices of dissent or misunderstanding represent are the same.
Anywho, I am straying (which is why I don’t normally post). Essentially, i am just saying that I won’t write you off Champ because I do think you can become an ally as well. None of this happens overnight. And because you offered a startling (and in my opinion naive viewpoint) does not mean that I will take my ball and go home. I hope you find yesterday’s conversation as a moment for you to “educate” yourself and the next time you run up on a convo like the one yesterday, you are able to offer a more substantial and more rounded view point.
I am sad to see some of your long time posters go because I always looked forward to their responses. I hope I don’t get hit for what I said.
Thank you for this post. I’m pretty mentally exhausted at this point. This post is refreshing. You made a lot of excellent points.
~~~” It seemed to become a “rape is never the victims fault” and all other dissenters became “rape apologists.” I dunno, I just don’t think all voices of dissent or misunderstanding represent are the same.”
Especially feeling this.
Thank you for this…awesome clarity and honesty…
Thank you for this post. I’m pretty mentally exhausted at this point. This post is refreshing. You made a lot of excellent points.
~~~” It seemed to become a “rape is never the victims fault” and all other dissenters became “rape apologists.” I dunno, I just don’t think all voices of dissent or misunderstanding represent are the same.”
Especially feeling this.
You fought the good fight.
So I know I’m really late but…
the example, “but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date?” is what inflamed the conversation. And while no there is no reason why women should not still use good sense, her lack of wisdom in any situation is never a license for a man to have sex with her if she does not want to have sex with him.
I am pleased to see that you did reread Zerlina Maxwell’s article. I am glad you realize your mistake of, “… definitely reach[ing] for the inferences [you] made.”
I had hoped to see a little more understanding though but this “I do not apologize for possessing the feeling I was attempting to convey” seems to be causing some continued confusion.
I do hope you see that if that 5’1 and 110 pounds woman was raped after eight shots of Patron regardless of the date number, and she said no or attempted to flee, she would still not be to blame.
But I get that your “whole point is that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex” and that is fine.
I have to change this statement “But I get that your “whole point is that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex” and that is fine.”
to
But I am choosing to believe that your only point was “that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex” and that is okay. Unfortunately that isn’t what you actually said.
So, what did I miss? A conversation about about female accountability and agency in the face of growing equality? Yeah, that is a controversial subject. Oh wait there’s more… so the medium you chose to present this argument in is rape victim responsibility? Fantastic. Sorry Panama, I’m pretty sure Champ has officially taken the arsonist title with this one. It was a long time coming.
I’m legitimately upset that I didn’t get to participate. Looks like some real talk took place, albeit uncomfortable.
Figures the “colored” guy would show up late.
OK is there a particular reason why my earlier (and only) comment no longer appears here?
In the fashion of ABG’s non-apology to Trans-people for their useage of the words “tranny” in a negative-context, VSB joins the ranks of unapologetic social commentary — whether that commentary is (mis)informed, well intentioned, or got their feelings hurt.
I can respect standing by what you say. I don’t respect apologizing when you’re really not. Further clarification only exacerbates the disagreement.
Someone else above made the excellent point that there is a difference between Risk Reduction & Rape Prevention. The former is common sense, and the latter is an onus only to rapists. Only rapists, whether they be men OR women, can stop rape. No amount of conservative clothing, sobriety, or general paranoia will completely protect you from being raped. It doesn’t stop female teachers from raping their younger male students. It doesn’t stop 14 year-olds here in Oakland from serial-raping random women. It doesn’t stop all the men who suffer from prison rape, nor does it stop Jerry Sandusky, Tara Porter (or, apparently, Hugo Schwyzer) from committing these terrible crimes against other people.
More to the point, if you really truly believe rape victims need to be more careful/cautious/paranoid/whatever, then don’t punk out when people call you on it. Yes, you said. Yes, you still believe it.
And no, you’re not really sorry.
Which isn’t to say, “Bad on you VSB!” I’m just trying to remove the ish from bull****.
I remember one of my ex-girlfriends, and the time she told me when she was date-raped. A friend of hers. Someone she trusted, someone she knew personally. They got drunk, and when she said “no”, she was too intoxicated to physically stop him even after her voice gave out from crying for help. I remember that story chilled me to the bone when I heard it.
Conversely, I remember the day I was falsely accused of rape. I was 18. She was 16. I had dumped her after some petty fight and she started stalking me in an effort to get back together. When it failed, miserably, threats of violence and rape claims got thrown into the mix and my kosher butt got scared. Real quick. Thankfully I was saved by legal counsel, alibis, and immediate action.
I come to this conversation from both sides, with both genders in my mind. My current girlfriend and I often debate the issue’s finer points, the differences, the legalities, the realities, the innocent, the guilty.
But I never felt more upset than when someone blamed the victim. You leave your wallet on the washing machine in the dorms and it ain’t there when you run back to find it? That sucks, and you shouldn’t leave your wallet behind. You go for a jog late at night and some gang-banger shoots you near a taco-truck? That sucks, and you shouldn’t go running at night. You go out for a drink and some friend of yours takes that opportunity to rape you? That sucks, and you shouldn’t… what?
See how easy it is to take that slippery slope dude? See how easily we judge people, and fault them for the criminality of a few. That’s rape culture, as much as I personally dislike the term. That’s the stuff that allows Mike McQueary to ignore blatant rape of a child, or Richard Connelly to write a Top 10 Hottest Women on the Texas Sex Offenders List.
And it only gets worse from here on out. You can write humorously about tragedy, but you need to know what the tragedy is before you can find a way to laugh at it to keep from crying.
As for me, I think VSB should takedown this non-apology, and the other post, rewrite an entirely new piece consisting of one line:
“I will not write about what I do not know.”
Period. End of story. Fin. Aaaaaaaaaand scene!
Brilliant.
^^^^^^^^^what he said.
Lurker here.
This comment is EVERYTHING.
Champ, your key mistake was using the outlier rape cases (the drunk, 5 feet woman wearing booty shorts and clear heels) to represent the much, much, much wider range of rape cases in which most women are raped in perfectly ordinary circumstances by seemingly ordinary people (people they were close to or thought they should otherwise be safe with).
Most stories most survivors have to tell (even some of those courageously shared yesterday) don’t begin with “I was drunk and…” and “I shouldn’t have worn that micro skirt…”
Instead, they begin in a frighteningly mundane way like “I was on my way back from work/church when…” or “I was thirteen when my uncle/cousin…” or “I was on a third date when…”
When you look at it from that angle, I think it becomes easy to see how anyone (and not just survivors, really) would be outraged by your patronizing and irrelevant advice to practice some more common sense and exercise some more responsibility. If anything, it would require quite the uncommon sense to predict a rape happening, especially when the perpetrator is someone you trust or have no reason to believe you shouldn’t.
As for the “apology”, you’d have been better off not bothering. If you can’t even understand why you were wrong for having such a feeling in the first place, talk less of conveying said feeling, then you clearly haven’t learned anything and that’s sad.
Agreed Zek!
I have to admit I winced all through yesterday’s post, but don’t we all express “opinions” on topics we are less than totally informed about in the company of close friends and people who we know will still love us regardless? Champ unfortunately did this on a blog with a large (and growing) audience. He then recognized publicly that is was the wrong venue. He recognized that it was inflammatory and badly handled and not thought out. (I’m gonna infer that he means the posting the article, not his opinions in and of themselves). He recognized publicly that he was ill informed. He recognized that he drew assumptions after scanning the article. He recognized that his ego had gotten too big. He apologized for all of this. The only things he didn’t apologize for were feelings. It would be dishonest and insulting to us for him to do that, wouldn’t it? To expect that from him is unreasonable. If he had said, “You know what? Now that I know how much my opinions upset you I no longer hold them, I am sorry and suggestions for conveying remorse are welcome” he would get the side eye of all side eyes. I really don’t understand why people are saying this apology isn’t enough. Champ has to deal with his mistakes being right up there with his successes, and I think he handled it. He apologized for everything we can really ask him to apologize for.
He went out the way every character old enough to be considered a man went out; fully accepting of their fate and the inevitability that the drug game would eventually get you killed or life in jail.
oops, wrong post
The post yesterday didn’t bother me one bit. I knew what you were implying. Often times people make their reactions to topics such as your post inflammatory and over the top simply because they can, and because their silly. It’s sort of like the guy that wants to start a fight when you do a “Yo Mama” joke. Obviously what you’re saying isn’t meant to be taken as gospel or literally, but people just like being silly and abandoning rational thinking skills and reasoning.
” I was up until 1 this morning reading EVERY. LAST. COMMENT. that was posted, and it just baffles me how such INTELLIGENT and ARTICULATE women can just talk and talk and talk….
TRANSLATION: Yeah, betches be yappin’… don’t know, don’t care what they sayin’…
and then literally close their ears (eyes) and hear (read) only what it is they want to hear (read) then pull that ONE PART out… and over analyze it.
TRANSLATION: Except it’s a verbatim quote and not that hard to understand.
I thought this was a place for intelligent dialogue… and that cannot happen if one will not GOD DAMN LISTEN!”
TRANSLATION: If you don’t agree with me, you’re dumb. I am a MAN… you stupit women’s shut up and listen to me because I KNOW… I know more about rape (even though I’ve never been a victim of it)… I know more about how women are educated or should be (even though I’m not a woman.)
{Insert last word and make insensitive joke}
Well, I enjoyed the blog while I had respect for you. Thanks for the good posts. It’s been real.
I realize that the loss of one reader is insignificant, but I do think I have the choice to read what I like. Yes, we all have free speech which allows you to voice even your unpopular opinions, but I have the right not to read insensitive and purposeless entries in my free time.
N
I had read the Ebony article last weekend and I understand where you’re coming from Champ. Just like you, I agreed with her to a point and then everything suddenly seemed skewed (and I’m a woman). I don’t think education for both sexes equates blaming women for rape.
I had to delurk for this…
I read this post and the one that started it all. A few people mentioned it, but it bears repeating: rape is all about one person dominating another. End of story. Sex is the vehicle they use, but it is all about using power to control somebody.
What is so egregious about rape is that it involves using the most sacred currency we as human beings have-our bodies, which is a physical representation of our very essence, something we are taught from the beginning is ours and ours alone. Couple that with the fact that sex is taboo in this country-yeah, we see it in all forms of media and we have all these clever euphemisms, but we do a piss poor job in talking about sex-and you can quickly see why this is arguably the worst thing one person can do to another.
What does this mean? It means clothing, sexual preferences, behavior, and all the other things folks brought up have nothing to do with preventing rape. The rapist is the only one responsible. Period. All rapists have issues with power and control, which is why we have to educate everybody. It is not okay to take someone else’s power because you feel you don’t have any or because you think you can. That will never ever ever be okay. I don’t care who you are or what situation you find yourself in. It will also never be okay for anyone to blame the victim, not even a little bit. The rapist needs help to figure out why he or she feels the need to violate someone else.
Final point, and the one that is hardest for some people on here to grasp-there is no demographic on who a rapist is. It can be any of us. Consequently, anyone of us can be victims. Therefore, teaching girls and especially boys to respect themselves and each other is the only way we will defeat the prevailing culture. No one gets a pass on this. Nobody.
A very special thank you to the women who shared their stories. To the males-and females-who in anyway tried to discredit or downplay their horrors, I only pray you correct yourselves before it’s too late. As for the idiots that brought up feminism and tried to link it in any sort of way to this discussion, shame on you.
Free my comment!
I know that for the purposes of the post the blogger is referring to men and women in terms of rape, but let’s not forget that rape is universal. The act of rape is not one that discriminates. The idea is that women should also be taught how to prevent rape by way of precautions is understood by me but what advice do you have for children? The mentally and physically disadvantaged? Boys? Men? The elderly? Exactly. When trying to act like you have women’s best interest in mind, please do not forget the real issue at hand. Rape is a psychological cripple, crime and major issue that people in our world are unfortunately experiencing; if a rapist can’t get to the woman or man drinking way too much in the club, the rapist will get to the young woman or man that the rapist has known throughout school. Rapists are rapists regardless of what you wear, drink, or look like. For that reason and that reason alone we should invest all the time and energy in the world nurturing and teaching how NOT to rape. Sit the fuck down if you think otherwise.