Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Race & Politics, Theory & Essay

So, She’s Down With The Swirl…And So Is She…And So Is She…And So Is She…And So Is She

Bradley Cooper and Zoe Saldana Have a Night Out at the Theater

I’m going to assume that the 25 to 40 year old Black people in my sphere of influence probably aren’t that much different than than the type of Black person a typical reader of VSB interacts with regularly. (Basically, the n*ggas I know are exactly like the n*ggas the rest of y’all n*ggas know.)

Why does this matter? Well, the statement I’m about to make is completely unscientific, completely unresearched, and completely dependent on anecdote and observation. You could even argue that I’m pulling it completely out of my ass. But, I doubt you’ll make that argument because, since the n*ggas I know are likely to be pretty much exactly like the n*ggas the rest of y’all n*ggas know, you’ll probably agree. You may not want to agree, but if you’re smart—and, if you’re reading this, you probably are—you will.

While the vast majority of the Black people I know date/marry other Black people, I personally know more Black women my age with White boyfriends/husbands than Black men my age with White girlfriends/wives…and I bet most of you do too. Actually, for me, using “more” is somewhat misleading because, well, I don’t know any. I mean, I know they exist. I occasionally hear about them on NPR, and sometimes I’ll see one or two waiting for jitneys outside of Giant Eagle, but I do not personally know any urban, educated, and employed Black guys—basically, Black guys like me—who date White women. Not one. But, I know at least 10 Black women with those traits who are currently dating or married to White men.

I’m not pointing this out because I think this is a bad thing. Or a good thing. Or an inbetween thing. It’s just a thing I’ve noticed…a thing that basically goes against everything we’ve read, heard, learned, and think we’ve seen, but just a thing nonetheless.

I’m going to leave you all with two questions, one I think I already know the answer to and another that still escapes me somewhat.

1. If you took a quick survey of the Black people you happen to know, could you have made this same observation? 

2. Why do you think this is? (I have my theories, but since I spent all weekend moving, I’ll let you all do the heavy lifting today.)

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a contributing editor for EBONY.com. He resides in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes.

  • Salaam

    I think i kow more black men with white women, but when I do see the opposite, it doesn’t shock me at all. I think the simple answer is that black women are expanding their horizons and widening their circles instead of waiting indefinitely for a negrow Prince Charming to come along.

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      Actually I think the whole IR dating thing is way overblown. Most African Americans date and marry other African Americans. Black men marry IR statistically more than Black women but only by about 10% or so

      A lot of what we notice has to do with heightened awareness. So, many times we notice IR couples whereas we don’t really notice Black couples in the same way. And Black women may notice Black men in IR relationships moreso than Black women and vice versa. So, in some of our minds the numbers are inflated.

      Add to that celebrity IR relationships and it seems to some that there are tons of these relationships when in actuality the numbers aren’t really that high.

      Anyway, I think overall the numbers of Black men dating IR are probably a little higher than Black women.

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        Oh snap. I didn’t mean for this to go here, Camille, Sorry. :-)

      • Todd

        A lot of what we notice has to do with heightened awareness. So, many times we notice IR couples whereas we don’t really notice Black couples in the same way. And Black women may notice Black men in IR relationships moreso than Black women and vice versa. So, in some of our minds the numbers are inflated.

        Add to that celebrity IR relationships and it seems to some that there are tons of these relationships when in actuality the numbers aren’t really that high.

        And that pretty much nails it from my perspective.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “Anyway, I think overall the numbers of Black men dating IR are probably a little higher than Black women.”

        I agree. But, I think among the type of demographic I mentioned in the post, the numbers may skew the other way

      • Jennifer

        Technically speaking, Zoe Saldana is Puerto Rican and Dominican – not African American…but yes, it is still indeed an interacial relationship.

        • Rewind

          She’s got dark skin. That’s all people care to see.

          • Dignan

            I care to see more of it, personally. When is she going to do a scene like Rosario Dawson did in Trance?

        • Joél

          Technically speaking you’re confusing nationalities with race. Zoe is BLACK…like BLACK African….BLACK American….BLACK Dominican. See the difference?

          • jack sprat

            I assure you, a great many, perhaps most, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans make that very same “mistake”, choosing to identify themselves as “NOT black”, thank you very much.

    • Brother Mouzone

      “I think the simple answer is that black women are expanding their horizons and widening their circles instead of waiting indefinitely for a negrow Prince Charming to come along.”

      So, are Black Men doing the same when THEY are with a white woman? Me don’t know?

      • salaam

        listen…outside of some very specific situations, i don’t have a problem with it…i feel like you need to date/marry that person who makes you happy – regardless of race. so, if you come up on a white woman that interests you, i say go for it – closed mouths don’t get fed.

        • Dignan

          Greetings from the Mother Continent.

          I’m curious as to what the specific situations are that you have a problem with, and why. I’m also curious as to why you changed your name.

          I hope this goes through. I’ve forgotten my login info for this site.

          • salaam

            lol…hey dig!! this is what i have seen personally. a black man – or woman that has always dated black – always. they reach a certain status (typically economic) and suddenly they want nothing to do with anything black. and if you look at their life, their dating/mating values did not change until that economic status changed. so, when you are just an average joe, you are not checking for white men or women, but when you “make it” then suddenly you are inherently suspicious of your own black people, and they are no longer good enough. i have seen it happen 1st hand in my own family and i cannot stand it. and i understand that often, a better economic status will open you up to new opportunities, but when you disregard your own race specifically because of money, that is a problem. and i changed my name b/c i was feeling sentimetal about my dog that i had to put to sleep. his name was salaam.

            • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

              Sorry about your dog, Cammile.

              • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

                *Camille*

              • salaam

                thanks val…it was actually a while ago, but was looking at pics and made me :(

                i guess it’s about that time for a new set of paws :)

            • Rewind

              Awww, poor doggy. You shoulda told me!

              I disagree on the idea that when people “come up”, they stop checking for their group. They just tend to meet people who now happen to be in this new area that they’ve finally been introduced to. Their old friends are not there, and to bring them there would mean to foot the entire bill at all times. No one is interested in that.

              If you enjoy rock, and then go to a hip-hop show, do you think your friends who enjoy rock will appreciate hip-hop too? Perhaps not. So now you make new friends who like hip-hop. That’s how love works. How can I go back to the hood for the type of women I grew up around when I get to a place filled people who make 100K+? The thwo don’t work together.

              • salaam

                “I disagree on the idea that when people “come up”, they stop checking for their group.”

                right – i’m not saying that this happens automatically by any stretch of the imagination – but i am saying that it does happen and i have seen it happen 1st hand and i don’t like it.

            • Dignan

              RIP Salaam. Aleikum Salaam. Allahu Akbar. (Ummm…sorry. I’ve been hearing the Call to Prayer five times a day, and it’s sinking in….)

              And that family member of yours needs either therapy or a good slapping. Or both.

              • Dignan

                And also, lest I forget….

                F*ck the police.

                • salaam

                  *SOOOODEAD*
                  lol..you are a nut…smh…

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “So, are Black Men doing the same when THEY are with a white woman? Me don’t know?”

        Not in the same way. I do see her point here.

      • yanni

        I guess some may believe so, but I don’t think so, because most black men have the choice. If they decide they want black women only, there is always a black women who is into brothers only, so there is no problem for these brothers, but if they choose a white women(etc.) whether exclusive or not there is always a white women waiting in the wings for a brother also. The difference is she doesn’t seem to have as long of a wait. Black women mostly want brother’s and people there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, but unless she has money or is famous or look a certain way (like Halle Berry etc.) somehow the brothers just aren’t very interested in her. Black and White men are interested in black women for the same reasons to me, but some of them have decided that black women should also have extras an a college degree and/or her very own everything (house, job, money etc.) when it seems to most black women that white women just doesn’t have to possess or prove much of anything to be considered marriage material. At one time black men seemed to have such high hopes for themselves with their black women. They used to be so very excited, happy and proud to be with a black women and that black women couldn’t have been more proud to call a black brother her man but today if either of them choose to relate to any other race of people, they can’t vocally express enough disgust, demeaning and disrespectful comments about one another. As a black women I can tell you this is what gets my goat more than seeing any interracial couple and whether black men knows this or not IT IS A VERY HURTFUL THING that is why they get the kind of feedback that they do. There really isn’t much of a difference which type of man decides they want a black women, because sometimes if she doesn’t go for the white boy etc. she might ends up with nobody.

    • Guest

      Brothers have spent literally years joking on black women for being single or undesirable in some way( or you keep quiet in silent agreement), and now some of you seem surprised that attractive and educated sisters are dating out? Criticizing people almost never works, it just pushes them away. FACT. Tell that to TJ sotimayor or whatever his name is. I don’t understand how anyone can think that constantly putting another person or group of people down will help anything.

  • Salaam

    *know*

    And 1st??

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      *gives Camille a snickerdoodle cookie for being first* :-)

      • Salaam

        thanks val! *looks around* no mocha frappucino to go with???

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

          Camille, I used to be hooked on those things. I almost went broke drinking two or three a day. Lol. How about a nice glass of ice cold chocolate milk! :-)

          • salaam

            what?? naw!! *slaps milk out of val’s hand* I WANT A FRAPP!!!!

            • Rewind

              crack fiend

              • salaam

                *sigh* guess imma hafta snatch another gold star off your shirt…

        • IcePrincess3

          *Hands camblue a venti frapp* Cheers, girl :-)

          • salaam

            *snatches frapp from ice, takes 4 big gulps, feels calmness begin to set in* ahhh….thanks ice…sorry val…we still cool, right??? :)

            • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

              *sad look*

              Yeah, we’re okay.

              *walks back to corner*

              • Kema

                *snickers*

  • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

    All I want, Champ, is for you to cross post this on Clutch or Essence or Madame Noir, etc., so I can sit back and watch you get an internet beat-down. Lmao!

    • malvagio tempesta

      Tu lo devi odiare poi. I wouldn’t wish that on my worst of enemies.

    • Todd

      Let me know the day that happens. I’ll make sure to get the popcorn. :)

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      he’d be better off trying to defend a Deandre Jordan dunk

    • Sandpaper

      @Val,

      Not so. I would turn the comments section over there into Fukushima.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      LOL. I have friends who work/write for each of those sites, and I think they (Clutch especially) gets a bad rap in terms of being the place thought of for “angry Black women” to congregate. The comment section here and the one there isn’t really all that different, and contains many of the same people. The only difference is that we have more men.

      (Oh, and since it’s VSB, we’re better)

      • http://www.twitter.com/black_yoda black yoda

        Stop lying, Champ. The rap they[Clutch,Ebony,Essence, etc.] get is fine, generous even. I think anyone going to those sites and this one on a regular basis should get some sort of brand…a mark of the beast if you will…so the rest of us know what kind of evil we’re dealing with.

        Anyways, I’ve seen the same thing when talking about the specific demographic you mentioned. In urban areas, I tend to see more bw/wm relationships. Now that gets more than counterbalanced when you include some of the rural/upstate/impoverished areas where white people also stay. I have a theory as to why, but I don’t have the energy to go into it or deal with the backlash. Suffice it to say that when everyone’s broke (meaning the white people are broke too), fewer f#$%s are given (except when it comes to each other). That explains part of it. It’s very easy to identify the places where few f#S%s are given. These are the places where it’s not uncommon to see a skinny black guy with some white whale tail. These are also the places that typically smell of abject poverty… which smells like too many stray cats in the neighborhood.

        • h.h.h.

          i thought i was the only one that peeped how ebony is…kudos.

          • http://www.twitter.com/black_yoda black yoda

            I just received my punishment for name dropping websites. Some unscrupulous individual just emailed me a story taking from one of the aforementioned websites called “I Didn’t Give Up On Black Men, They Gave Up On Me!” I’m pretty sure I threw up twice while reading. Speaking of which, she might want to consider that to help her…..nevermind. She could be any one of at least a dozen commenters on this very site…lol

            • H.H.H.

              oh, i read that article too…too bad its making the rounds now.

              • Jeanette’s Daughter

                i read it, too. she has my sympathies. i’m just going to say it: there are many plain, often (not always) dark skinned sisters who would say this if they could. problem is – there are no white men checking for them either! the personal choices people make don’t bother me at all, but the ongoing ‘war’ of words between black men and women bothers me a lot. not personally, i’ve had the best and the worst of relationships with black men, and i know our history so i understand the dificulties, the challenges. i just think every culture and ethnicity has it’s favorites, its standards and that scope can be so narrow sometimes that there isn’t someone for everyone. so the wisest thing to do may be == cast your net wider. put another way – who is buying what you are selling? black on black coupls will continue to be the standard. we’ll see a lot more variations on that theme, too, as men from other countries come to the usa. the takeaway may be that black women who had been overlooked or dismissed before will get more attention. and what’s wrong with that…

  • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

    1. I would make the same. Statistically speaking.

    2. I would say that reason is because a lot of the time the progressiveness that these same women want in men (existentially speaking) runs at odds with the type of Black men they’re attracted (realistically speaking). A lot of Black women want these traditionally masculine Black men in both attitude and body merged with these Mark Anthony Neal “New Black Men”. I’m not saying it’s an impossible match, because I personally have a couple friends like that, but it’s a pretty rare match.

    White men aren’t really burdened with the same expectations as far as masculinity and are far more easily allowed to be progressive culturally and individually.

    • Thomas

      I agree with Malik

    • No Clever Name

      “White men aren’t really burdened with the same expectations as far as masculinity and are far more easily allowed to be progressive culturally and individually.”

      I usually lurk but I had to co-sgin this. I hate to say it but I only noticed it once I was involved in interracial relationships. That’s definitely a discussion I’d like to see in the future.

      • minxbrie

        “White men aren’t really burdened with the same expectations as far as masculinity and are far more easily allowed to be progressive culturally and individually.”

        I find this interesting. I do agree with your point because “white man” is at the centre of every social, cultural and historical expectation and it is easier for them to do what they want because they set the tone for acceptable actions and behaviours… but I find masculinity to be problematic all around because it places unrealistic expectations on all males. I would actually love to see this discussed further.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. MinxBrie:
          So would I!-because I think if there’s going to be a truly enlightening and lasting effect, Black Women must be willing to examine their own deeply rooted gender biases.

          So, let’s begin here – how many Black Women do you personally know, who is OK with a Brotha NOT being uber-cool, just ooozing with swag, etc? Be completely honest with me.

          O.

          • SweetSass

            Me.

            I tend to date geeky guys.

            • Marshal

              *taking mental note on Sass dating “geeky guys” while taking shots at Black Men specifically and Men overall that are Nerds and not Geeks*

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Mashal:

                Thank you – Boom!

                #TheOldJediMindtrickDoesntWorkOnMe

                O.

            • minxbrie

              “How many Black Women do you personally know, who is OK with a Brotha NOT being uber-cool, just ooozing with swag, etc? ”

              Out of the 6-8 girls I’m with on a regular basis? 4. Not including me, though I do love the geeks.

              It’s not about being “cool” or having “swag”, it’s about having confidence in yourself. I don’t care if you’re awkward, geeky, nerdy or just straight up weird, as long as you own it.

              My fling-turned-friend T LOOKS like he’d be all swaggy and hyper-masculine, but he’s hella awkward and deeply insecure. He’s a sweet kid but the problem ISN’T that he’s not cool (because the boy can dance, he does spoken word AND speaks French) , the problem is that he has such low confidence in himself that he allows himself to be treated like sh*t by some idiot girl.

              I find males who “ooze swag” irritating because on my end, it feels like a facade.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Ms. MinxBrie:
                Your response was quite illuminating. Thanks for your cooperation!

                O.

      • Todd

        I definitely agree with this. Living with White people made me see this in HD. This isn’t to say that White men aren’t expected to be men. It’s just that they have a LOT more leeway than the average brother in terms of masculinity.

        • Sigma_Since 93

          + 1

          I saw this play out when I was the only fly in the buttermilk in High School. Being manly has different meanings on the other side. And since there are no n!gg@ moments to speak of, there’s a lack of hyper-masculine males.

          The only place you may see any parallels in black hyper-masculine and white hyper-masculine behavior is grades and corporate climbing.

          • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

            I agree with you and Todd. I do think white men can be/are hyper masculine but their freedom/privy gives them room to be more for their own reasons.

            • Dignan

              For what it’s worth, when I see white guys who are hypermasculine, they are more likely to be lower class white guys.

      • LMNOP

        This is really interesting. I don’t think I personally know enough men to compare black men vs. white men, but it definitely makes sense.

        The pressure for men to act in stereotypically masculine ways is so damaging. It hurts men, it hurts women, it hurts kids. It’s sad.

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      @Malik:
      From my commentary below:

      “And third, Malik hits on a major, huge point about the very real Myth of the Black Male Mystique, and the way he juxtaposed it to how White Men can just BE, without having to worry about taking a hit in the desirability dept from Black Women. I know Sistas don’t like to hear this, but the facts don’t lie – Sistas, taken as a group, simply aren’t all that into Nerdy, Quirky Brothas like that, or even Really Smart Brothas like that. I know, I know, there’s a number of you reading this who will vehemently deny it, but please understand something: YOU, are in the distinct minority, and every Brotha reading this knows it. As I often say, name me all the Sistas who swoon at these two words: John McWhorter. I’ll wait…yea, that’s what I thought. For so many Black Women – and let’s be clear here, we’re talking about Bougie Girls, not the Ratchet Contingent – if you’re a Brotha, in order for you to work the smarts, it’s gotta come in a kind of Tony Stark/Stringer Bell hybrid wrapping, for the most part. For whatever reason, Sistas desire more swag/style/flair that many Nerdy Brothas and the like either just don’t have, or don’t wish to cultivate, which is their right. And that’s perfectly OK for both parties, to desire what they do and to exist in this world. It’s OK.”

      O.

      • Amethyst

        Maybe if you didn’t speak in such a condescending, douchebag-y tone, EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME you make one of your thesis-length comments, it would be easier for ppl to be willing to hear you out, and read ‘some’ (not all, cos ain’t nobody got time for that) of your ‘opinions.’

        #done.been.needing to.say.that.for.a.minute.now

        Now, adjourn YOUR a*s.

        A.

        • Wild Cougar

          *whispers* (its a cover for insecurity)

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. Wild Cougar:
            “Insecure” about what? Please explain?

            Look, I’ll tell you what – let’s us both put ourselves out there on the table, right here, right now, on VSB; and let’s see who’s “insecure”.

            You game?

            O.

            • Wild Cougar

              #aintnobodygottimeforthat

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Dignan:
                “Why does she have to give you specifics?”

                O: Because I asked for them. Politely.

                “If you get many people criticizing your tone and saying that it detracts from your arguments (which you do, and it does), then maybe it’s time that you consider the possibility that all of those folks may be right, and perhaps change your behavior.”

                O: What would you suggest? Hmm? Maybe it’s possible that all these “many people” (when in truth, it’s literally a handful) simply don’t like WHAT I’m saying, regardless as to HOW I say it – Hmm? How about that hypothesis?

                “You don’t appear to be open to changing your behavior, so expect the (likely valid) criticism to continue.”

                O: Have you heard me complain about it? No? Alrighty then…

                “Just because no one is willing to take the time to write ten paragraphs explaining why you come across as condescending doesn’t mean that this criticism is invalid.”

                O: And just because some makes the claim, with no attending evidence of same, doesn’t make said claim valid either…

                “If enough people are coming to this conclusion about your writing, you just may have a problem. I suspect that you don’t care, but I’m open to the possibility that you might prove me wrong.”

                O: Thus far, I’ve been published and will continue to be so. My blog hums along nicely. I have not been banned here. So far, so good…

                O.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Ms. WildCougar:

                #WildCougarGotAGlassJaw

                O.

                • Wild Cougar

                  LMAO, for real. You want evidence that you are insecure? Now you’ve really gone off the deep end.

                  I tired of your “show some random studies that agree with your opinion or else your opinion is invalid” song and dance many months ago.
                  Now you want a study that shows you’re insecure?!

                  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

                  *inhales sharply*

                  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    @Ms. WildCougar:
                    “LMAO,”

                    O: From what I hear, that shouldn’t be too hard for you to do…

                    “for real. You want evidence that you are insecure?”

                    O: No: I asked you to explain why you said that. Reading truly is fundamental, donthca know.

                    “Now you’ve really gone off the deep end.”

                    O: Says the chica who’s gone on record as having to take psychiatric meds and has to see therapists…

                    “I tired of your “show some random studies that agree with your opinion or else your opinion is invalid” song and dance many months ago.”

                    O: Yup – right after I booted you flat butt from my blog for trolling it…

                    “Now you want a study that shows you’re insecure?!”

                    O: No; see above…

                    O.

                    • Wild Cougar

                      YOU booted ME from your sad excuse for a blog?! You can’t afford to boot anyone from your blog. That’s why you spend all your bandwidth harassing every blog you can find to get people to click your links. You’ve been reduced to making things up.

                      Thanks for the laugh. you should try stand up

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      @Ms. WildCougar:
                      “YOU booted ME from your sad excuse for a blog?!”

                      O: Yes.

                      “You can’t afford to boot anyone from your blog.”

                      O: I could afford to boot YOU. And from what I tell by your own hand, I’m not the only guy who’s given you the boot in your life. When’s the last time hyou saw your therapist?

                      “That’s why you spend all your bandwidth harassing every blog you can find to get people to click your links. You’ve been reduced to making things up.”

                      O: Prove. It. Everything I say about you I can back up. Come and get some.

                      Thanks for the laugh. you should try stand up”

                      O: I know, I know, Walk it off, WC. Walk it off…

                      O.

        • Man Down

          El…Oh…El!

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. Amethyst:
          “Maybe if you didn’t speak in such a condescending, douchebag-y tone, EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME you make one of your thesis-length comments, it would be easier for ppl to be willing to hear you out, and read ‘some’ (not all, cos ain’t nobody got time for that) of your ‘opinions.’”

          O: Wow, you just got a taste of today’s commentary – just the tip – and already I see I done went and struck a raw nerve.

          Good! Now, let’s talk. :)

          “#done.been.needing to.say.that.for.a.minute.now”

          O: Yes…I see! Whooosah….whoooosaaaaah… ;)

          “Now, adjourn YOUR a*s.”

          O: That old saw truly is amazing; imitation is indeed, the highest form of flattery.

          See, I think it’s beginning to catch on!

          :)

          O.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. Amethyst:
          Now that we’ve got the preliminaries out of the way, let’s actually address your diatribe of non-sequiturs.

          Please explain to me what, in my actual comment above, was “douchebagey” and/or “condescending”? What, in my actual comment above, had such a bad or negative “tone” about it? Let’s agree that my previous comments were the way you characterized them; could you please tell me how my current comment above, fits the bill?

          You were saying?

          Think real hard now before you touch that keyboard…

          O.

          • SweetSass

            Put in your PUA speak….

            You ooze AFC-ness.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. SweetSass:
              Really? How so? Since you seem to be familiar with some of the lingo of the seduction community, by all means, explain how I’m an “AFC”?

              Because I am most definitely NOT a PUA, nor have I ever claimed that I was.

              The floor is yours…

              O.

              • SweetSass

                Ok, “Game practitioners”.

                Your anger over women and their choices is what makes you an AFC. Your desire to punish, downgrade, insult, etc. are all classic AFC tendancy. You hate what you want and want what you hate.

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  @Ms. SweetSass:
                  “Ok, “Game practitioners”.”

                  O: I prefer the term “Gamesman” myself. :)

                  “Your anger over women and their choices is what makes you an AFC.”

                  O: Wrong. This is NOT the definition of an AFC; read along and learn:

                  “An Average Frustrated Chump (AFC) is shorthand for the typical modern male. AFCs are just your average guy—someone who’s usually had some success with “getting lucky” with women, and may even have had a few girlfriends throughout his life. But as a whole, he is pretty clueless when it comes to attracting women.

                  AFCs usually have very socially conditioned ideas about how the attraction process works, and thus end up doing the opposite of what usually creates attraction in a woman. AFCs often feel like they have very little control over their dating lives, and that they have to settle for the few women who choose him, as opposed to being the one with the options.”

                  http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/average-frustrated-chump-afc/

                  I think any objective reading of my many postings here at VSB, would prove conclusively, that the last thing I am, is an AFC. LOL.

                  “Your desire to punish, downgrade, insult, etc. are all classic AFC tendancy.”

                  O: Again, wrong. None of the behaviors/actions/desires/etc. you attribute to me, constitutes AFC behaviors in the least. Proof again, that you don’t know what the heck you are talking about.

                  “You hate what you want and want what you hate.”

                  O: I don’t hate anyone; and as for what I want and getting it, well, I’m not the type to kiss and tell, so you’ll just have to take my word for it.

                  SMH…

                  O.

            • ReggieH

              Hilarious!

          • Amethyst

            See my comment above ^^^. I’ve said all I have to say to you. I don’t speak douche.

            \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Have a good day ma’am

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. Amethyst:
              “See my comment above ^^^.”

              O: I have, hence my query.

              “I’ve said all I have to say to you.”

              O: Well, that’s a comfort.

              “I don’t speak douche.”

              O: Coulda fooled me…

              “Have a good day ma’am”

              O: Good night, Mrs. Callabash…

              O.

          • Dignan

            Why does she have to give you specifics? If you get many people criticizing your tone and saying that it detracts from your arguments (which you do, and it does), then maybe it’s time that you consider the possibility that all of those folks may be right, and perhaps change your behavior.

            You don’t appear to be open to changing your behavior, so expect the (likely valid) criticism to continue.

            Just because no one is willing to take the time to write ten paragraphs explaining why you come across as condescending doesn’t mean that this criticism is invalid. If enough people are coming to this conclusion about your writing, you just may have a problem. I suspect that you don’t care, but I’m open to the possibility that you might prove me wrong.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              Oooops, posted this in WC’s thread by mistake:

              @Dignan:
              “Why does she have to give you specifics?”

              O: Because I asked for them. Politely.

              “If you get many people criticizing your tone and saying that it detracts from your arguments (which you do, and it does), then maybe it’s time that you consider the possibility that all of those folks may be right, and perhaps change your behavior.”

              O: What would you suggest? Hmm? Maybe it’s possible that all these “many people” (when in truth, it’s literally a handful) simply don’t like WHAT I’m saying, regardless as to HOW I say it – Hmm? How about that hypothesis?

              “You don’t appear to be open to changing your behavior, so expect the (likely valid) criticism to continue.”

              O: Have you heard me complain about it? No? Alrighty then…

              “Just because no one is willing to take the time to write ten paragraphs explaining why you come across as condescending doesn’t mean that this criticism is invalid.”

              O: And just because some makes the claim, with no attending evidence of same, doesn’t make said claim valid either…

              “If enough people are coming to this conclusion about your writing, you just may have a problem. I suspect that you don’t care, but I’m open to the possibility that you might prove me wrong.”

              O: Thus far, I’ve been published and will continue to be so. My blog hums along nicely. I have not been banned here. So far, so good…

              O.

        • gemgirl

          +500. He sometimes (not often) has a fairly reasonable point.Unfortunately it often gets lost in “knowitallness” and pomposity of tone.

      • Joanna

        “Swag” is great but, mostly, I hope for a distinct personality from my nerdy black brothas. Some nerdy people are just…dry. But otherwise, I love nerdy black guys! …granted, I do realize that I am in the vast minority. And I am completely okay with that.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. Joanna:
          Yes, what you say is true; but that’s the thing with Nerdy Guys in general – they tend to be, well, “dry”. But a lot of Sistas simply aren’t attracted to that, and I’m saying, hey, it’s perfectly OK. The simple truth is, and you know this is true even while you’re the exception, is that for whatever reason (because if I start mentioning specifics I’ll make people upset), there’s more cultural space, to be a Nerdy Guy; to be “dry”. That’s just the plain truth of it, Ms. Joanna, and that matters, because of all the reasons Malik laidout in his excellent comment.

          O.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. Joanna:
            Oooops, correction:
            “there’s more cultural space, to be a Nerdy Guy, IN WHITE AMERICA, than it is in Black America; to be “dry”.”

            Fixed!

            O.

        • http://missrosen.worpress.com esa

          i dont find nerdly and sexy to be mutually exclusive categories. i love people with as many facets as a diamond ~*~

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. Esa:
            To be sure, that is to be commended – and yet, it does not and cannot, diminish in the least the point I and others, like Malik, are making. There’s a there, there, and I get why it may be difficult for you and other ladies in this forum to grok that. But again, please list out for me all the Sistas who swoon over John McWhorter?

            I’ll wait…

            O.

            • SweetSass

              I dislike McWhorter because he is a Black Republican.

              Is that the best you can do?

              I mean seriously…

              • Marshal

                Mena swears he’s Independent or a Moderate Democrat, but I’m glad I’m not the only one who knows the Truth about McWhorter

                • SweetSass

                  I’d prolly hit that tho.

                  He is actually physically attractive…

                  I just couldn’t settle down with a guy with his politics.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    @Ms. SweetSass:
                    That’s because you have no idea what his politics actually are.

                    Hmm…

                    O.

                • mena

                  He is a dem. People don’t like him b/c he is conservative on race issues.

                  • SweetSass

                    LOL. He worked at the Manhattan Institute.

                    He is most certainly a DEM in name only.

                • mena

                  In fact, he’s quite socially liberal. I really like him and his politics.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Ms. SweetSass:
                I dislike McWhorter because he is a Black Republican.”

                O: Oh, how so very “progressive/tolerant” of you.

                And, for the record, McWhorter was never a Republican, and voted for Obama, TWICE.

                Keep studying; one day you just might get that black belt…

                Is that the best you can do?

                I mean seriously…

                O.

                • SweetSass

                  Am I obligated to like Black Republicans?

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    @Ms. SweetSass:

                    Do you seriously make your determinations of friendship and more based on whether YOU THINK said person(s) vote “D” or “R”?

                    Really?

                    O.

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            Yeah, Eas, VSB had a post a while ago about Blerd love.

            • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

              *Esa*

          • Joanna

            Yes, Mena! I agree. Nerdy can be very sexy.

            • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

              Serious question here. Trying to lean.

              When is it sexy?

              If nerdy CAN be sexy (the can suggest that it is not alway sexy) What is sexy all of the time/most of the time.

              Not trying to bait you into anything, just trying to understand. For instance smart is sexy to me all the time while flirtatiousness is sometimes sexy.

              • salaam

                “For instance smart is sexy to me all the time”

                sorry – jumping in – i think that a lot of people assume nerdy=smart…

                • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

                  hope not. she said it can be attractive.

              • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                intelligence is a turn onnn. i just spent two hours with an older man, not physically handsome by wow oh wow his mind. and i actually had a moment where i was like, “maybe i could go for an old cat.” not like he was hitting me up so it matters not.

                but ! when i wrote this post i meant to say, i dont think these are mutually exclusive categories. one can be hot as hell AND have a passion for learning, ideas, and express that in their life.

                i really dig people who combine seeming opposites and always have a touch of the unexpected in their approach to life ~*~

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  @Ms. Esa:
                  Of course you do; as a Woman, you’d be fairly odd if you didn’t. Women have something like 16 major catergories that they find Men attractive in; whereas Men have, if that, about 4 or 5 when it comes to Women, LOL.

                  I think you’ll really like Buss’ work.

                  O.

              • Joanna

                Smart is always sexy. I equate nerdy with someone who is ridiculously passionate about something that most people wouldn’t care about. My best friend is OBSESSED with computers and it’s so adorable to hear him talk about it. So Mark Zuckerberg nerdy (money not necessary) is sexy. History nerds? Sexy. Does that make sense?

                • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

                  Interesting. I think i get it! If you saw a man with a similar affect to Mark Zuckerberg – minus the money of course – walking down the street you would find him sexy.

                  If you are black your answer says a lot. I don’t know many black women that find him attractive….minus the money, even with the nerd factor. Thanks.

                  • Joanna

                    LOL! I am black. I am an anomaly.

                  • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                    i find Dve Choe sexy. does that count (giggle)

      • ABlackWoman

        I wasn’t familiar with John McWhorter so I googled. Uh…he’s handsome and smart so…he could get it. But he’s old enough to be my daddy so never mind.

      • JuiceCrewAllStar

        John McWhorter? F— that clown!

        • dtafakari

          I have a crush on McWhorter’s bio. Linguists do it with multiple tongues…I kinda dig that.

        • mena

          Why is he a clown?

    • Ani-Q

      Though I feel Malik is right about the different expectations in masculinity, I truly don’t understand and can appreciate why BM entire focus of getting his sh*t together (every detail of success and prosperity)always seem to be at the expense of a relationship.

      • Todd

        Of the top, I would say the biggest reason is that Black women don’t feel safe or valued in this society, and they need someone to be that Avenging Angel for them before they can do anything else.

        Simply put, sisters be insecure #nsh1t.

      • Sigma_Since 93

        There are expectations placed upon us that get magnified when you are in a relationship. It’s one thing to manage and supply your own wants and needs then you add another individual(s) that you are now responsible for supplying all of their needs and some of their wants. If you are not ready this can break you down very quickly.

        • KENYADIGIT

          Oh man. That hit too close to home.

          • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

            Sure did.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          “There are expectations placed upon us that get magnified when you are in a relationship. It’s one thing to manage and supply your own wants and needs then you add another individual(s) that you are now responsible for supplying all of their needs and some of their wants. If you are not ready this can break you down very quickly.”

          good point

        • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

          ~ you are now responsible for supplying all of their needs

          really ? i didn’t get the memo. i would not expect a man to supply my needs. that’s on me.

          but ! i believe in mutuality, and in a relationship i can see how there are shared needs to maintain and enhance the quality of the connection. but i still would see that as a separate from what i, as an individual, need.

          • Sigma_Since 93

            “i believe in mutuality, and in a relationship i can see how there are shared needs to maintain and enhance the quality of the connection.”

            You did get the memo. One of the reasons you enter into a relationship is because that person fulfils a need that you have. If the two of you are pouring into one another, you need to identify and address your partner’s needs. It can become daunting especially if
            a)how you address those wants / needs when compared with how she thinks you should b) how to agree to disagree about said wants / needs

            • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

              mokayy .. ima think on this some more. i’ve never been a relationship type. that might be changing so i gotta put in tha work ..

            • Ani-Q

              “It can become daunting especially if
              a)how you address those wants / needs when compared with how she thinks you should b) how to agree to disagree about said wants / needs”

              Hmmm…I think I have insight into how I approach relationships.

              • Sigma_Since 93

                please share

                • Ani-Q

                  I might not know how to compromise without feeling like I am losing a part of myself, to maintain my individuality but have that ultimate intimacy with a guy (chex is always the easy part)and why I always feel like I dont quite understand him. So maybe its not him pushing me away, I am the one pushing myself away.

                  Oui papa…Today has been a good therapy session for me.LOL

                  • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                    great observation. i relate ~*~

      • h.h.h.

        “I truly don’t understand and can appreciate why BM entire focus of getting his sh*t together (every detail of success and prosperity)always seem to be at the expense of a relationship.”

        maybe some guys are on that traditional “provide and protect” kinda thing. or they see the role their fathers filled, and wish to do the same (or the role their fathers didn’t fill, and wish to do better than their fathers). je ne sais pais (sorry i didn’t take french, pardon the errors)

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        I truly don’t understand and can appreciate why BM entire focus of getting his sh*t together (every detail of success and prosperity)always seem to be at the expense of a relationship.

        often, this is code for “i want to get my sh*t together so that by the time my sh*t is together and i’m ready to settle down/get married, I’ll have more available/attractive options to choose from”

        • Kema

          I agree!

        • Keith

          I agree. Besides someone has to be stable in a relationship. I need to quit seeing two shaky people together when you know that shit aint going to last. Whats wrong with sucess before a soul sapping relationship. Plus nothing wrong with the sistas getting that paper(legally) before coming into the union.

    • Amethyst

      Alladis right hurr

    • Rachmo

      Totally agree as most Black guys I date are missing in the “quirk” factor at first. However I feel like when Black guys start to trust you that’s when they let their weirdness out and quirks out. It’s like you have to earn it but in the end Black guys will still watch and actively comment on Dancing with the Stars with you. Color me perpetually optimistic.

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        ” It’s like you have to earn it but in the end Black guys will still watch and actively comment on Dancing with the Stars with you.”

        Lol.

        I think a lot of Black men let society place them in a box they don’t want to be in. So, I agree with you that given the opportunity they will break free.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          “I think a lot of Black men let society place them in a box they don’t want to be in.”

          do you think we let society do this to us, or do you think it’s done because we’ve learned (rightly or wrongly) that this is the way you need to be to be attractive to black women?

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            “…or do you think it’s done because we’ve learned (rightly or wrongly) that this is the way you need to be to be attractive to black women?”

            Good question. I think it might be a self-fulfilling prophecy type situation. You think it will work, so you make it work for you.

            It’s only if you step outside the box will you know if it was really working for the reasons you thought or you just weren’t giving Black women enough credit as far as being open to something else.

          • h.h.h.

            to piggyback, if the BW you’re attracted to has shown they are attracted to (X), you ain’t got (X), do you go out and get (X) or just say forget her i’ll find another?

            and when it happens over
            and over
            and over

            then what? blame self?

            • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

              ~ and when it happens over
              and over
              and over

              i recommend a paradigm shift ~*~

              • KENYADIGIT

                aka whie women

                • KENYADIGIT

                  *white

                • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                  i wouldnt suggest people shift paradigms by focusing on externals. or at least, that would not work for me.

                  for me, for a shift to take hold, i have to evaluate my intention, action, response, and results independent of anything other than my own failure and success.

            • Marshal

              I think if people (men and women) go around getting “traits and qualities) for their S/O, and Some are not compatible to Individuality, then is that Person truly Themselves, or “being Somebody” for Another? If that’s the case then the “Be Yourself” lesson is a Lie.

              There has to be SOMEBODY for Somebody, ya know????

        • Rachmo

          Yeah there’s something about a super masculine Black dude saying “I mean her dress was hot but they fell off with that Argentinian tango” that makes my heart smile.

    • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

      “A lot of Black women want these traditionally masculine Black men in both attitude and body merged with these Mark Anthony Neal ‘New Black Men’.”

      Do they? I do not understand this concept of “black women having different expectation of masculinity.” I’ve yet to hear a friend complain of a man not being masculine enough and/or not being brand new enough. The number one issue is the lack of commitment which has been echoed throughout the comments today. I don’t think this is a problem with black men specifically though; I can think of multiple sources for this observed conflict.

      • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

        I was referring to the type of men Neal believes Black men should work towards to being in order to foster healthier relationships within the Black community and with Black women.

        To be a little hyperbolic, I’m saying educated career orientated Black women desire Black men to physically be in line with someone like Jody from Baby Boy while also being a well-read and enthusiastic reader/ally for Womanism (bell hooks, Audre Lorde, Alice Walker, etc). They exist. They’re just in extreme limited quality because they sort of run at odds with each other. These extreme/hyperbolic standards aren’t put on prospective white partners.

        • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

          “I’m saying educated career orientated Black women desire Black men to physically be in line with someone like Jody from Baby Boy while also being a well-read and enthusiastic reader/ally for Womanism (bell hooks, Audre Lorde, Alice Walker, etc).”

          Black women are as susceptible to physical attraction as any other group of women. I have not found most women to be this idealistic. Average everyday women are looking for average every guys. It’s very possible that simply isn’t my circle. And I understand a man’s POV will always be different in this regard. My brow stays furled at these descriptions of what women want.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

            ~ My brow stays furled at these descriptions of what women want.

            Freud posed the question 100 years ago. purrhaps men are still struggling to answer it because they don’t speak quite the same language women do ?

            • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

              Yes, believe it or not we still do.

              • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                i believe it.

                i recently became very aware that what i wanted and needed were diametrically opposing ideas because i was so fukt that all i was doing was recreating trauma in my life.

                now that i am over that, i’m at a bit of a loss. forget what i want, i’ll take, “What do i need for a thousand, Alex.”

                • Keith

                  +1

      • blackphilo

        Indeed, what would any Black man know–despite spending much of his life experiencing, observing, and thinking about Black masculinity and what actually attracts women?

        So, yes, let’s agree that the “number one issue”–somehow prior to the issue of masculinity/attraction itself–is “lack of commitment.” In fact, unless they’re willing to co-sign, Black men needn’t be party to any of these discussions.

        • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

          There was a VSB post I think about this by Panama and how Black men like to have 1511 steps before marriage. Instead of just dating/couple -> marriage.

        • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

          No sarcasm needed; I’m merely pointing that I have rarely (read: never) heard a black woman state anything relative to this concern and that I don’t really understand where that idea is coming from. What I have heard is exactly what I stated- no desire to have committed relationships. I have never observed this demand for unnatural levels masculinity that is being described; feel free to enlighten me.

          • My Girl is Only Half White

            Well I would have to say that YOU are a UNICORN! Everyday I’m hearing black women scream about how black Men aren’t men anymore and are so emotional and the ever present “actin like bitches” Everyday I’m seeing black women clowning black men who lack the proper “swag”.

            • Kema

              Yet you ignore the screams of those wanting the C-word.

              • KENYADIGIT

                sorry. is the C word Cunt? I think your statement will be clearer if I knew what the C word was.

                • Kema

                  *whispers* commitment

                  • KENYADIGIT

                    oh. Had to look it up. Why would anyone do something as silly as commit.

                    Sounds like a surefire way to end up chexless, unhappy and broke.

      • SweetSass

        PREACH IT GIRL!

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “Do they? I do not understand this concept of “black women having different expectation of masculinity.” I’ve yet to hear a friend complain of a man not being masculine enough and/or not being brand new enough.”

        i think this comes more from observation than anything else. guys see the type of guys women talk about/fawn over/f*ck and most often, it doesn’t seem to be the quirky/nerdy/awkward types.

        • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

          exactly sir.

        • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

          That just sounds like a catch 22- all the way around. Are the quirky/awkward/nerdy guys hollering at women on a regular basis? I say no (and that conversation has been beat to death.) If we agree that, socially, women typically do not do the approaching (and many men have posited that women should not approach) then doesn’t it make sense that the men who are simply boldest will end up with the most women? How do men get bold?

          • Kema

            “How do men get bold?”

            Game? *snickers*

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. Kema:
              Indeed!-but-all Gamesman don’t approach.

              Far, far from it…

              O.

    • Brother Mouzone

      “White men aren’t really burdened with the same expectations as far as masculinity and are far more easily allowed to be progressive culturally and individually.”

      I said something similar to this several posts ago and got clowned by a couple of VSS’. The expectations are also different when it comes to awkwardness, lack of swag/coolness, fashion sense, height, hygeine, general physical attractiveness. That supa-fine sista(especially if she’s dark-I don’t know why but something I noticed)would never choose a Black guy who had ANY of the shortcomings I mentioned above but would accept any and sometimes ALL of these in a white guy.

      • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

        I’d like to say that I don’t think it’s really a dichotomy people nerd and alpha male. It manifests in other communities as well. A sensitive artistic white dude will be swooned over and admired far more readily than a Black counterpart for example. Michael Pitt, Joseph Gordon Levitt, and Ryan Gosling for example get this a lot. There isn’t a comparable Black actor that gets that same type or level of swooning.

        • SweetSass

          Maxwell.

          Basquiat.

          Lenny Kravitz.

          • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

            Aint no Black women ever talk about bumping uglies with Basquiat. Lenny definitely does not fit archetype. He’s the same mold of chex God that has been circulating in Black music for generations. I don’t listen to Maxwell so I can’t say him. Should of at least thrown out D’Angelo.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “White men aren’t really burdened with the same expectations as far as masculinity and are far more easily allowed to be progressive culturally and individually.”

      Interesting point. This mindset extends past dating as well. For instance, Louie CK is my favorite comedian. And, he regularly makes jokes about being gay—he once even told a guy in the audience that he’d suck his d*ck—but no one doubts that Louie CK is straight and that he’s just trying to tell a joke/make a point.

      But, let Kevin Hart or Chris Rock tell a joke like that. I think that would end the internet. Like, you’d click on Firefox or Chrome and there’d be a message saying “Sorry, the internet is dead. The two trillion articles, posts, and tweets about Kevin Hart’s gay joke killed it.”

      • Cali

        ROFLMAO!! THAT is true, the interwebs would just DIE instantly.

      • Keith

        there are still rumors going on about Will Smith, Jamie Fox and Kordell Stewart. I think these started a decaded ago and you go any barbershop and its almost gospel. So no black men dont get the same pass as CK. He is current favorite comedian as well lol.

    • http://ponderingsofablackman.blogspot.com Miles Garvey

      Malik, you deserve an award for that articulation. I’m in total agreement and far too many Black folks in the U.S. aren’t aware of what you’ve articulated in your second point.

    • au napptural

      I agree with Malik to a certain extent. Yes, there is a greater spectrum of masculinity on the white side, however, after a certain point perception IS reality. That means, yes there is a limited notion of what it means to be a man in the black community and that’s bad. But after you get through with the whys and wherefores and blaming absent dads, if a black man falls outside the notion of acceptable manhood in our community, he’s not someone you want to date. I’m not saying he’s gay, but he’s ill-adjusted. Something is wrong. I’m not taking about those sugernigga stereotypes.

      You can be Barack Obama or Jay-Z in the black community and get play. But you have to have some kind of edge, a little something. If you lack that, you’re like William on Girlfriends, you may date black women but it won’t be very successful. You know the kind of black man I’m talking about. To be non-PC, soft. And to quote April Sinclair, “the world is no place for someone soft and colored.” Those two things do not go together, stone me if you want, be it’s true. You can be sensitive, artistic, thoughtful, w/e without being soft. I’m sensitive. But I’m not emo and I surely do not want an emo dude, black or otherwise.

      • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

        There’s nothing edgy about Obama though. He is white middle class in values. All-American. Not too long ago he was not edgy enough for Chicago’s black community.

        • Brother Mouzone

          “There’s nothing edgy about Obama though. He is white middle class in values. All-American. Not too long ago he was not edgy enough for Chicago’s black community.”

          His SUCCESS is his edge. Women will apply all kinds of favorable traits to a man who is successful even if those traits don’t really exist in him. Like Chris Rock said “when he rich, his bald spot becomes a “part”

        • au napptural

          Obama married a black woman. He must have some kinda edge. :) Seriously, look who tired Clarence Thomas married. And tired Thomas Sowell. The list goes on and on. The fact he could even pull a black woman def. says something. But even more so, Obama’s edge is in his choices. With his pedigree, he could’ve married Cathy Creamcheese and been pulling down 6 figures far away from Negronia. Niggas who ain’t even mixed have been trying to run that game for decades. Instead he choose to work and marry within the community. Impressive.

          As for success being his “edge” you could say the same for gorgeous women. Men would marry a really pretty blow-up doll if it could cook and reproduce.

    • Rewind

      Agreed. Every race has their own tribulations to deal with when it comes to love/relationships, but what is unique about Black love is how skewed the assumptions are of women vs. the assumptions of men, when both genders have a HUGE gap in equality.

    • Jeanette’s Daughter

      that is remarkable insight and i’m so glad you brought it up. there is also the ‘boho’ chick who simply does not fit the ebony ideal, the essence ideal, the new clutch black panther, or any ideal woman: black, white or indifferent. it can be hard to find a match in your own group. hell, it can be hard to find friends in your own group so being counter-cultural, you are most likely going to cross the border.

  • Lou

    I have to disagree bro. Out here in the west… I admit it’s getting more common to see sisters with other races. But the black men with white/latina/asian movement is trill in these streets!

    • Lou

      Oops… it’s a two parter! Second, I think that sisters are simply giving up on black men. We’ve always been number one in a black woman’s heart. But, they’ve watched us dibble and dabble with other races over the years. Perhaps this is a “what’s good for the goose…” moment in our history.

      • Salaam

        Hmmmm….I don’t think we’re giving up on you…I think that we’re just not going to continue to limit ourselves in terms of our happiness. If we can be happy with a brotha – fantastic! But if not. – well let me see what John Pilgrim is talking about over here…..

        • Moe

          This is accurate from my circle of friends.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. CamilleBlue:
          One of the problems I find in the line of reasoning you’re presenting, is that it robs Black Women themselves of any agency in the mate selection process. Let’s be frank: there are scores of Brothas out thee who are willing to be with lots of eventual Swirling Sistas – but, many of those Brothas are “lacking” in some way. And I for one think that’s OK. But they’re not “lacking” to the extremes lots of Sistas make out, and again thats OK. It’s just for lots of these Sistas they have a vision of what they want their lives to be and for whatever reason, the Brothas around her don’t cut it (we’ll deal with the metaphysics later). There’s an interplay at work that many Sistas aren’t willing to admit because it robs them of Perpetual Victim Status – and there’s mucho power AND PRIVILEGE in being a victim. This is why I’m so glad Champ did this post today – because if nothing it, it utterly shatters a lot of longstanding myths about Black Women themselves.

          O.

          • AfroPetite

            I’m trying to figure out why women can’t just pass over seemingly “Good Black Men” and it be perfectly fine. Black men pass over nerdy, arse challenged, fashion challenged good women daily. No one is out here demanding that black men give a second look to nerdy women. They need d!ck in their lives too :-)

            • Marshal

              Not All Black Men, >>>>>>> talked to and dated all across the BWI spectrum personally. Big and Skinny Girls/Ladies need Love too

            • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

              Black men hold internalized views against Black women as well. That deserves a space of discussion.

              • dtafakari

                Yeah, that’s a rabbit hole right there; who we (women/men) find attractive, and whether or not that preference is formed in a vacuum or is the result of (black) social conditioning. And to AfroPetite’s point, I’ve dated and broken up with plenty of ‘Good Black Men’ and one ‘Good White Man,’ and none of them were the right for me. There are enough ‘Good People’ on the planet to where you don’t have to lock down the very first one you meet. It ain’t that kind of drought. :::happily married:::

                • AfroPetite

                  My point exactly. What’s “Good” is subjective at best. Obsidian loves to play up this visual of a good black man equating to a man who’s only quality need be his “superior intellect”.

                  His views on what a good man is don’t derail from this monolithic theme of “I’m A Learned Doctor” = I’m A Great Catch For Women Across The Board

                  • Oshun

                    Glory!

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    @Ms. AfroPetite:
                    “My point exactly. What’s “Good” is subjective at best. Obsidian loves to play up this visual of a good black man equating to a man who’s only quality need be his “superior intellect”.”

                    O: Absolutely not true, and I defy you to find me the specific quote where I have, ever, in all the time I’ve spent here at VSB, made such an argument? I will patiently wait, because I really want to see that quote…

                    “His views on what a good man is don’t derail from this monolithic theme of “I’m A Learned Doctor” = I’m A Great Catch For Women Across The Board”

                    O:??? Again – when have I EVER made such an argument? Quotes, please?

                    Thanks

                    O.

                • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

                  I’ve long been of the thought that A LOT of our preferences are socialized rather than there by birth.

            • SweetSass

              Thank you!

            • Medium Meech

              I agree with Malik on this one. But I think the major disconnect here isn’t necessarily a racial one but it does exist. All we hear about is black women complaining on end about there not being enough good black men, but those are the dudes that get passed over. The tendency towards hyper masculinity in the black community does not exist in a vacuum .

              But again, I think that’s a racial subset of a genaral female tendency.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. AfroPetite:
              “I’m trying to figure out why women can’t just pass over seemingly “Good Black Men” and it be perfectly fine.”

              O: They do – all the time. Please point out to me where this isn’t the case?

              “Black men pass over nerdy, arse challenged, fashion challenged good women daily. No one is out here demanding that black men give a second look to nerdy women. They need d!ck in their lives too”

              O: Actually, they are – ever heard of Jezebel?

              Anyway, here’s the reason why the unconventionally unattractive Women get passed over, even by the more nerdier guys:

              Because they are not s8xually attracted to them. It really is that simple. And there’s nothing in the least wrong with that. It just means, they’re not attracted to them like that.

              O.

        • Jeanette’s Daughter

          exactly but the bigger issue for me is this: do we allow our primary relationship (you know, the one with love/sex and possibly marraige) to determine how we view an entire people? i have always been perplexed by the scared looks i have gotten from white women with black men couples, and the shame sometimes on the faces of the brothers who made that choice. i mean, seriously – get over yourselves. you don’t know me. i mean my mom did not think any less of sidney poitier as an actor and a decent black man when he broke up with diann carroll and later married a white actress. i do not consider a black man who marries out a loss. depends on whether he (or she) was worthy in the first place. what i do not appreciate is the loudmouth hateful ones who seem to think it is okay for them to talk ugly about me as the reason or excuse for their choices, and vice versa. anyone read any kola boof!?

      • No Clever Name

        Eh, I’m not so sure. Although I’ve only been on the west coast for 3 years, I have seen what you’ve seen but the “type” of black men that are dating out like that are . . . pretty hood. The guys I think he’s referring to in this post that I usually see are, for the most part, with sistas. I think there is some merit to what he’s saying which is why I take all that, “black people never date each other” propaganda with a grain of salt.

      • LA Red

        Yes, I agree on both counts. Out here in L.A., IR dating is everywhere. I also agree with black women giving up on black men. When you do find one, he doesn’t want to settle down. If black women want a long term relationship they will have to look else where. Black women have been loyal to black men for far too long.

        • IcePrincess3

          *sits back not knowing where this is going….

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            Lol. Some of these comments seem to indicate it’s going nowhere fast.

        • SP08

          I concur. Thank you for speaking the un-PC truth many don’t like hearing. I have dated my share of Black men, this particular set of men seem to be on the SAME mess. They wanna have multiple women and give em all babies they don’t wanna support. Don’t be mad at me, fix your ish. I get on Black women too for their attitudes and their f’ed up ways too.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. SP08:
            Oh, really now? OK, so you can please direct me to the many comments you’ve made here at VSB to that effect? I for one would surely like to read how, for example, you’ve taken all the many Black Women out there with utterly attrocious, jerky attitudes; or all the many times you’ve challenged your fellow Sistas on how they cling to outmoded notions and ideas of gender, and urge them to approach guys and pay for the first date, and so forth.

            Please, by all means, enlighten me and the rest of the crew by providing links!

            *Sits back and patiently waits…*

            O.

            • SP08

              #1 You think VSB is the only place I do my “work” with Black women? You have got to be kidding me. You will continue to wait because my reach is father than your pretentious comments.

              For the record I am not making generalizations. If it doesn’t apply LET IT FLY. It is only those folks who are trying for the sake of keeping up appearances that deny the truth of what is going on with MANY (not all) Black men. Mention marriage and they squirm, mention monogamy they are repelled like mosquitoes to citronella. Just tired.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Ms. SP08:
                “#1 You think VSB is the only place I do my “work” with Black women?”

                O: No, I do not; but you made your proclaimation at VSB – therefore, it was wholly accurate for me to ask for you to please povide some degree of evidence that you have indeed, taken to task, Sistas in this venue. By all means, please feel free to include the links to anywhere else online you’ve done same. :)

                “You have got to be kidding me. You will continue to wait because my reach is father than your pretentious comments.”

                O: Show me; I’m a very patient Man.

                “For the record I am not making generalizations.”

                O: I don’t recall saying that you were; perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

                “If it doesn’t apply LET IT FLY. It is only those folks who are trying for the sake of keeping up appearances that deny the truth of what is going on with MANY (not all) Black men. Mention marriage and they squirm, mention monogamy they are repelled like mosquitoes to citronella. Just tired.”

                O: Obviously, you have not read my commentary on the matter downthread; I highly urge you to do so.

                Looking forward to that evidence…

                O.

          • Salaam

            @sp08

            Nah…can’t roll with the blanket generalization that you’re trying to give of black men. Not all black men just want multiple children by multiple mothers and that is a bad stereotype to propagate. If that is the only type of black man that you have dated then it seems like you need more people to help you find a new dating pool. And exactly how do you get on black women for our attitudes and f’d up ways?

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. CamilleBlue:
              This is exactly what I was talking about from above. Ms. SP08 doesn’t want to admit the possibility that maybe she had a hand in all of the Black Men she’s dealt with being a certain type. Because if she did, the onus would then refocus on herself. The dirty little secret a lot of Swirlin’ Sistas don’t want to admit is that some of go to Plan B as a way of not having to deal with their own very real deficiencies and problems. This is truly sad because it them introduces all of that to unsuspecting White Guys – who are quite aware of the problems quite a few Black Women have…

              O.

              • Sigma_Since 93

                “The dirty little secret a lot of Swirlin’ Sistas don’t want to admit is that some of go to Plan B as a way of not having to deal with their own very real deficiencies and problems.”

                To be transparent O, there are some brothas that fall into this same category too. My brother and one of my cousins fall into this category. They’ve had sistas challenge them to be and do better; instead they’ve chosen to date women who coddle them and let them stay in their current place (mess).

                • salaam

                  To be transparent O, there are some brothas that fall into this same category too. My brother and one of my cousins fall into this category. They’ve had sistas challenge them to be and do better; instead they’ve chosen to date women who coddle them and let them stay in their current place (mess).

                  sigma – you know…this is real. it’s not all black men or women by any means, but it’s a real part of the equation. i’ve experienced dating “that” black man and found the resistance to “do better” to be incredible.

                  • Sweet GA Brown

                    I believe this was one of the first arguments among the black community in regards to IR dating between black men and white females. Black men “running” to white women who take care of them because they dont want to stand up and be a king to the black queen.

                    I suppose black women decided to stop complaining and learned that they should not limit themselves in love.

                    To me its all about options. The more you have the better chance you have at finding happiness with your mate.

                    • blackphilo

                      “I suppose black women decided to stop complaining and learned that they should not limit themselves in love.”

                      If only.

                • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

                  Sh*t, you can find Black women who do that too. Coddling knows no race…

                  • Sweet GA Brown

                    True but thats the excuse that was initially used when everyone was playing the name game.

              • Joanna

                I think it’s unfair to blame BW for the stereotypical plight of the BM when it comes to dating. Sure some black women have caused black men to feel some type of ways about all black women but sometimes, people need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions. You can’t always blame someone else for what went “wrong” in your life. Someone hurt you? Listen to some Drake then keep it moving. But don’t act like x, y and z just because someone did a, b or c to you. That’s just ridiculous.

                • blackphilo

                  Are these observations immune to irony–and thus don’t apply in the other direction?

              • SP08

                Oh nice deflection, but it isn’t going to work. I am a highly educated Black woman who has dated her share of Black men who are also in the same lane. Many of them play the same games… stringing you along until they find the next chick they think they can have. They do this well into their 40’s and 50’s. Stop denying the obvious. Not a perfect woman and I have grown in my years, but I am not blind nor am I ignorant to what I am seeing here. Black folks have got to get their shit together. The women are mostly about getting money and being as ratchet as possible, the men are all about sex and being baby making factories. Just look at our community and the rise of single mothers. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

                I am a Black woman who is looking for something better, and YES it started with me not taking shit off ANY COLOR DUDE who doesn’t have good intentions toward me. END OF STORY.

                *takes bow*

                • salaam

                  hmmmm…lol…i really thought you were white based off of your previous comments…

                  • Dignan

                    Racist.

                    /Just kiddin’, Blu.

                    • salaam

                      lol…shiiit…did you read what she said??

                    • Dignan

                      I’ve been trying to ignore her comments, because it’s clear to me that she’s a bit dramatic, and she reminds me quite a bit of someone who got banned from this site a while back.

          • LMNOP

            You need to expand your circle.

          • blackphilo

            “I have dated my share of Black men, this particular set of men seem to be on the SAME mess. They wanna have multiple women and give em all babies they don’t wanna support.”

            Maybe those are the particular type of Black men that turn you on. After all, we can be fairly confident most of the Black men here at VSB, for example, don’t fit that profile. But we can well imagine that most brothas here aren’t into women, Black included, who think in terms like “give em all babies.”

            • salaam

              thank you

            • SweetSass

              Really, because there are more than a few on here who are on baby mama 1 and looking for BM #2…

              • Marshal

                Please have a _/ at the Childish Stereotype Table with that lame ass comment

                • SweetSass

                  It’s not a stereotype I’ve counted four regulars on here who have children out of wedlock.

                  • Sigma_Since 93

                    Unless you have full knowledge of the circumstances behind these men’s relationships you are making biased generalizations

                    • au napptural

                      I call BS on this. When you meet women with children out of wedlock do you stop to evaluate the circumstances? Probably not.It’s not necessary. I may get stoned again but right is right. Sorry to all those who are in their feelings but most people have kids OOW due to irresponsibility. Don’t try to romanticize it. What circumstances would make that situation ok?

                      If you planned it? Irresponsible. Why would you bring a child into that unstable situation. If it was an accident? Worse! You are a grown arse person- you ought to be using something. They make a million and one forms of birth co ntrol. Now the men are going to say they only have condoms. Yes, the cheapest and one of the most effective methods-use them! And to all you people who got a baby with some one-night stand or person you weren’t even with- shame. Shame.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      au napptural

                      I think you jumpped into the thread a litte too fast and didn’t read everything that was posted.

                      An assumption was made that the men that post on this site who have children out of wedlock are looking to plant their seeds in more fertile soil and not be responsible. Only a person with intimate knowledge of said men and their relationships should make such a claim

                    • au napptural

                      That’s not what I got from Sweet Sass’s comment. Yes, someone upthread made that allusion, but when someone else said that person needed to evealuate their circle, only then did Sass point out the men around here have OOW children too. To me, that spoke to the fact some ppl were trying to make it a class/neighborhood thing a la “stop dating Jody from Baby Boy.” She was saying it’s not just hood niggas educated niggas are having random kids too. And suppose they pay every check on time- how does that negate what I said? Having random children is not responsible or desirable even if you take care of them after the fact. I’m going need someone who is smart enough not to get that situation to start with.

                  • AmaniKwenu

                    And how many women here have you counted with out of wedlock children? If you insist on that line of reasoning, just understand that it cuts both ways.

                    • SweetSass

                      I don’t date women. I date men.

                    • AmaniKwenu

                      If you’re suggesting that some of the black men who frequent this site are less marriageable because of their out of wedlock children, then couldn’t the very same argument be made for the black women who visit this site and have had kids outside of marriage–that they’re less marriageable. And if that’s the case, then wouldn’t that lend credence to the complaints that some black men have about some black women? I only ask because I’ve read all manner of assertions made by a few women on here about black men that sound a lot like stereotypes. But if there’s some truth to these stereotypes, then they CUT BOTH WAYS. You don’t need to date women in order to understand that, you just have to be honest.

                    • au napptural

                      It seems to me AK, you are the one trying to prevent the argument from cutting both ways. Sweet Sass made a valid comment about what she observed on VBS and you said “what about the women”. Derail. Deal with the men first, then you can get to the women. If the men on here truly do have kids OOW, first, it’s a great discussion topic. A lot of BM use that as the date IR excuse du jour “these black women all have kids.” Do these guys feel kids makke them less dateable or marriage-able? How about women with kids. Do they feel just as open to them?

                    • SweetSass

                      Its been long established that men consider single moms less marriagible.

                    • AmaniKwenu

                      @ au napptural

                      Yeah, but this convo isn’t about “black men and their OOW children”. It’s about IR dating. And there are some women on here who are parroting a bunch of tired stereotypes about black men. A guy up-thread argued that the men who visit VSB don’t really fit some of the stereotypes that are being perpetuated here today–mainly the ones about baby mamas and OOW children. SweetSass noted that a few guys on here, do in fact, have OOW kids. *My point* was that if it can be argued that men having OOW children makes them less desirable as marriage prospects, and that’s why black women wanna date other races of men, then the very same argument can be made by black men–that black women with OOW children aren’t desirable marriage prospects, and that’s why they date other races of women. Me making that point is not “derailing” the conversation, which is about IR dating in the first place. So I’m not really understanding what your comment has to do with mine.

            • SP08

              How many Black men on this board are actually married or plan to be married to their partners?

              Don’t worry I’ll wait.

              • au napptural

                I’m waiting too SP08. Silence.

                • Marshal

                  Are you all really trying to have a “Chicken or Egg” angle on FEAMALE AND MALE Single Parenthood???? GTFOHWTBS

                  Whether or not a Man OR Woman s a Single Parent for Whatever Reason is Subjective, not “just” because of Irresponsibility of a Man, or Infidelity by a Man, or any other “factor” that you all want to place at the feet of Men……

                  THIS Shyte right here is why Feminism gets a bad rep- Little to NO Accountability from Women who are Just as Unfaithful, Foul, Conniving, and Every Other Negative Adjective, Verb, and/or Noun as Men. Or did Eve NOT get created out of Adam’s Rib…..

                  • Marshal

                    *Female

                  • au napptural

                    What the hell? Marshall you did a complete 180. Wasn’t nobody talking about Feminism…or chickens…..or eggs. And if you READ my comment I said any human, man or WOMAN (not female) who has a child OOW is irresponsible. I guess you saw what you wanted to see.

                  • SP08

                    *Sips tea while shots are deflected* LOL

              • Sigma_Since 93

                I’m married and Todd’s married. Estimated wait time for a response 34 min.

                • SP08

                  We have two out of many. Good to hear though. You need to talk to some of the younger generation and teach them that marriage is valuable.

                  • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

                    Not all of the VSB population is even in a relationship. Even a casual one. Soooo yeah.

                    • SP08

                      Yep… screwing randomly is part of the game with many today. Not me not ever.

              • Todd

                That would be me. Also, my last relationship before marriage was with a White woman…and I married a Black woman. My particular choice may not have been wise, but it is an issue specific to her, not Black women. I love Black women. Hourglass shapes, big boobs and big butts FTW.

          • Brother Mouzone

            “I have dated my share of Black men, this particular set of men seem to be on the SAME mess. They wanna have multiple women and give em all babies they don’t wanna support. Don’t be mad at me, fix your ish. I get on Black women too for their attitudes and their f’ed up ways too.”

            Looks like SOMEBODY needs to evaluate her choices in men. It’s really simple…STOP DATING “JODY” from “baby boy”!

            • SP08

              I have little time for simplistic comments, especially from someone who has NO CLUE who I have dated. “Jody” gets NO PLAY from me… he would be lucky if he would have time to speak as I am passing him by.

              Here is the ugly reality… there are MANY BABY BOYS running around the Black community who think they are men.

        • The Other Jerome

          “If black women want a long term relationship they will have to look else where.”

          LOL good luck with that

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

          - I also agree with black women giving up on black men.

          – When you do find one, he doesn’t want to settle down.

          – If black women want a long term relationship they will have to look else where

          – Black women have been loyal to black men for far too long.

          Do you always make sweeping generalizations based on race and gender?

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            Opps, forgot the quotation marks. The top 4 sentences are quotes from LA Red.

        • Rewind

          The problem was never that Black men wanted to settle down. It was that the Black men YOU CHOSE were not ready to settle down. Had it been Asian, Hispanic or any other race, depending on the men you chose, you would have had the outcome.

          It is not about race. It is about maturity, and unfortuately, you did not find men you were ready for that life.

          • Marshal

            THANK YOU!!!! Some of the New VSS are showing the Greenhorn Trait with these comments

    • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com Aly

      Yeah, where you live definitely impacts the number/type of interracial couples you see. In the South, interracial couples are rare, but the two interracial couples I know are BW/WM… interesting. I do know another couple in my home state (Neb.) that’s also BW/WM. Champ may be onto something.

      As far as why? Just exploring our options I suppose.

      • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com Aly

        Moderation?? Well I never!

    • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

      Cosign. When I first moved to LA, I was like “Is every Black man here dating a Blasian or Colombian???” Hahaha.

      There are certainly a lot of interracial relationships of every kind of gender match, but it seems like more Black men dating non Black women than Black women dating non Black men.

    • Todd

      In my few experiences traveling out West, you do see more interracial couples, especially Black Men/Asian Women couples. You very rare see that in NY, while out West, it’s apparently what’s popping.

      • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

        Far bigger Asian community out west.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      I agree that the west coast is a completely different dynamic. everyone i know who lives out there has told me that.

  • Aclectic

    Personally…

    I have yet to see educated black women with an equally educated white man…
    And vice versa
    What i DO see tho is “wiggers” from the hood with an equally male or female.

    • IcePrincess3

      Educated?! That word is relative, honey. Focus on intellect, not “education.”

      • Sigma_Since 93

        Man down! Man down!

        IcePrincess3 you are training in the medical field; come help revive our fellow VSS.

    • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

      Every Black woman I know dating a White man is dating her educational match who is very culturally “White.” I don;t know any Black women dating any Slim Thuggas or Bubba Sparxx.

      • IcePrincess3

        I just meant in general. I be around some very educated idiots all the time.

      • Todd

        +1 Tends to be my experience as well.

      • Sigma_Since 93

        Maybe it’s a function of the need to validate his date (future mate) when it comes time to sell his parents on why he shouldn’t be shunned from the family.

        Malik made a good point that white guys can just be when it comes to dating. Now when it comes to marriage, there’s a yoke that dude must now acknowledge exists and be willing to put on. For eva eva

        • salaam

          yeah…the feedback that i have gotten is that white parents look at it like “oh, this is a faze that he’s going through, so i’ll entertain it for now”. but when they start talking about marrying a black girl, ish gets real…also, i’ve heard that white parents like to put “concern for the (potential) grandchildren” as the main reason for not wanting their child to marry black – basically – it’s just going to be soooo hard for a little mixed child to make it in this world, so why would you want to do that to yourself and your child?

          • IcePrincess3

            Well, that excuse doesn’t really hold up anymore in a post-Obama world. Guess they will have to come up wit something else lmao :-)

            • Sigma_Since 93

              IcePrincess3 it’s alive and well; especially if his family is high on the socio-econimic ladder. The President’s story sadly is a satistical outlier which will have many white’s quoting Jay Z..We don’t beleive you; you need more people.

              • IcePrincess3

                Oh, I kno it’s still alive & well, honey. I’m jus calling BS on those white ppl that would still try that excuse lol

        • Jeanette’s Daughter

          yoke?

      • Scipio Africanus

        Paul Wall, not Slim Thug – we knew what you meant, though.

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

          I’m thinking of Paul Wall too. Lol.

          • IcePrincess3

            Yes Paul wall has a black wife.

        • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

          Oh my bad… Gotta get my hip hop game up. Yeah I meant Paul Wall. #Fail. #facepalm

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        But, isn’t Bubba Sparxx married to a Black woman?

    • LMNOP

      In general, women are more educated than men. So in a heterosexual relationship there is a pretty good chance the woman will have more formal education.

      There are also more traditionally male paths to career success that aren’t dependent on extensive schooling, so in a couple where the woman has more schooling, they might both still be successful professionals.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “I have yet to see educated black women with an equally educated white man…”

      where do you live?

  • http://sexandthesanctuary.wordpress.com Nicole

    I do know more black women who are married to and/or dating or have dated white men than I know black men who are dating/married to white women. However, I’ve had some conversations with black men who have had an interest in white women from time to time, but they are concerned with what it will mean to enter her “white world.” The black men are concerned about meeting her white parents, walking around in her white town, and possibly being the only black person there. He doesn’t want to feel like he’ll have to validate himself to everyone. Furthermore, there is some concern that said black men have with disappointing their parents. In one particular instance, a young man’s parents told him that he better not bring a white girl home. So, despite his liking a white women, he couldn’t take it any further than that because he wasn’t willing to deal with the pressures. I think this brings up the question of how important approval and affirmation is between men and women in terms of these types of relationships. Is a man willing to sacrifice the approval of his family less than a woman is? Are parents a little more gracious with their daughters who bring white men home than their sons? In the “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner Scenario?” is the white man more welcome than the white woman? So many questions…

    • IcePrincess3

      Omg! That’s so true! That’s how my man’s parents are. Like, his dad is hella racist. (So was mine, to be fair). But it still sux tho. His mom knows I’m white, but not his dad! I’m like, “wtf you too grown for you to be letting your parents’ old azz views matter to you like that.” Smh

      • salaam

        @ice….that’s interesting…how do you think it will affect your relationship once his dad finds out that you are white?? do you think it will put stress on it, or do you think you two will be able to just keep it moving?

        • IcePrincess3

          Girl, ain’t no tellin. Can only hope. *sigh*

      • Brother Mouzone

        Understand that with older Black men it’s not as simple as “he hella racist”. His dad still remembers when dealing with a white woman was waaay more trouble than it’s worth and probobly worries about his son’s safety, even though it’s not AS BAD as back in his father’s day.

        • IcePrincess3

          True. My dude’s uncle (his dad’s brother) saw me. My dude told me later that his uncle told him “be careful.” Lol smh

          • My Girl is Only Half White

            My little brother goes to the “smart” kids highschool and whenever he tells me of a white girl taking interest in him I ALWAYS tell him to be careful and I’m only 28.

    • Todd

      However, I’ve had some conversations with black men who have had an interest in white women from time to time, but they are concerned with what it will mean to enter her “white world.” The black men are concerned about meeting her white parents, walking around in her white town, and possibly being the only black person there. He doesn’t want to feel like he’ll have to validate himself to everyone.

      Word. Generally, IDGAF, so I’ll put up with the questions, the odd stares and whatnot. Plus going to HS and college with White people takes the edge off of figuring out how to function in their world, though it’ll never not be goofy to me. Still, that fear is real. Also, there are the very real fears that if it doesn’t work, they’ll have this Scarlet Swirl on their chest that’ll scare off the sisters. Once a sister hears that I’ve dated White women, all of a sudden, the memories of every doll, fashion cover and style TV show come flashing through their heads, and I’m now part of the chorus saying “If you’re White, you’re ALRIGHT!”

      Yeah…miss me with that.

      • http://www.strikeamatch.us Melissa M

        LOL @ Scarlet Swirl!

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      I think that, aside from a few exceptions, Black women who date out do tend to be more Black community-minded than Black men who do. it may not seem like they’re shunning their community or their families because they may not distance themselves the same way a Black man dating out might.

      • Brother Mouzone

        Ni@@a what??? Are you just playin Peter Panderer or are you serious? I think the complete OPPOSITE is true. Most brothas can still be Black with their 2520, but sistas are REQUIRED to lose all allegiance with their own..from what I observed.

        • Charlie

          “Most brothas can still be Black with their 2520″

          True

          “sistas are REQUIRED to lose all allegiance with their own..from what I observed”

          Why?

          • Brother Mouzone

            “Most brothas can still be Black with their 2520″

            True

            “sistas are REQUIRED to lose all allegiance with their own..from what I observed”

            Why?

            Why??? Ask someone in that type of relationship, it’s what I have observed.

            • Charlie

              Im asking what have you observed, and why do you think it is required.

        • SweetSass

          Nah, IMO its dudes who go full Tiger Woods.

          And my dad is Black. Married to a White woman, my mom.

          And they live in 2520ville.

          • Brother Mouzone

            There are exceptions to everything, but Brothas like Tiger are not usually the ones sistas are checking for…nerdy, speaks “white”, no swag(Black swag), plays golf, not sista-standard handsome, etc…If your dad is Tigerish, I can see why they’re in 2520ville.

        • Rogman

          Your response amused me.

          If only for the fact that on this blog women are presumed to be better humans than men based on well…………….nothing

  • Moe

    I personally know more sistas dating/marrying white dudes than brothas marrying white women. All of my boys are married to black women then latinas. The sistas that are married to white dudes were proposed to within a year. What I’m hearing from my sista friends are that white dudes know automatically if they want to wife you within that 6 month period and act on it.

    Whereas, we brothas rightly or wrongly will take longer if not years to wife sistas and that’s really our fault. I’m not saying white dudes are prince charmings because all of them are not and some of them are straight idiots/racist family i.e. my ex-brother in law. Also with the show Scandal, more sistas that I know are talking about possibly dating white dudes due to the so-called “lack” of black men, which I’m not buying. Personally, I prefer black women and latinas.

    • Ray

      Man listen…. White men move fast. I’m one of three Black men in my office and when I started there were about 8 of us (5 white guys and us 3 Black guys) that had a little bachelor crew). Three and a half years later, 4 of the White guys are married or engaged, 1 is in moving in that direction, and one of the Black guys is “thinking about it” with the rest of us are still dating. The white guys seem happy… maybe we move too slow? I don’t know. It is what it is.

    • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

      A Black friend of mine just got engaged to her White boyfriend of 8 months. The fast track is real.

      • Sweet GA Brown

        I guess when ya know, ya know.

      • AfroPetite

        All aboard the Engagement Train! Lol

        I’m extremely young as far as most VSB posters are concerned. I’m less than 5 years removed from high school and I know of at least 10 of my white peers who have gotten married by the age of 24. I think that culture plays a huge role in their dating, courting, and selection process in general. The white people I know, see the value in relationships from different standpoints and encourage their children to date early, date smart, and date for longevity. That’s not to say that black parents don’t want the same for their kids though. Just my observation.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          “I think that culture plays a huge role in their dating, courting, and selection process in general. The white people I know, see the value in relationships from different standpoints and encourage their children to date early, date smart, and date for longevity. That’s not to say that black parents don’t want the same for their kids though. Just my observation.”

          good point

        • SP08

          Just the truth. Culturally MOST Black men are allergic to marriage. Y’all can get mad at me all you want, but I know of maybe TWO WHITE MEN out of the scores I deal with at work or otherwise who are single, and they are ALL in the 25-35 age range. These men for the most part have careers and wanna settle down and not play games. They realize the importance of finding a good wife and keeping a good thing for the most part. Guess what, about HALF of em are married to Black Women…. go figure.

          Now we know there are terrible men of all races, but CULTURE is the GAME CHANGER here.

          • salaam

            sooooo…do you NOT date black men anymore?? b/c from your previous post, it sounds like you do…and if you are still dating black men and you “know” that black men are “allergic to marriage”, then i guess i’m wondering exactly what you expect…most times, you attract what you project.

            • SP08

              I am open to dating Black men. My last three dates were Black men. I have not given up on Black men in general, I am just tired of the game they spit and expect women to play along. I’m all willing to see what happens, but it seems like men today want to randomly have sex without commitment. When I tell them that ain’t happening they BOUNCE. That is OK I have my standards and they aren’t budging for the brothers or for the “other brothers” either.

            • SP08

              Really doesn’t matter cause I’m bout to be off the market.

        • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

          ~ I know of at least 10 of my white peers who have gotten married by the age of 24. I think that culture plays a huge role in their dating, courting, and selection process in general.

          lest we forget it is white folk who coined the term, “Starter Wife.”

          • Rogman

            hehe

            I so want to hug esa for saying this.

            • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

              (giggle)

              okay, i am so not into marriage so it’s easy for me to see through the veils before the kiss.

              i mean, if it works for folks, that’s great but part of the reason i am not into marriage (besides that whole legal contract/government involvement bit) is that i am not into divorce.

              okay, i’m not really into domesticity either. ha ha. well, that’s easy enough.

      • au napptural

        Yep. I be like, what chu waiting on? I wish black people would emulate the white attitude to marriage. You meet someone who has what it takes, marry them! My God. IDK what these men are waiting on. If you want a sign from above ask. My dad said he asked God to show him his wife, wham, bam, he meets her the next week (this is high school), they date and marry at 20. 27 years later still going strong.

        But these people today have to test EVERYTHING. First, they have to date for 3 years, then live together for 2 more- just so they can break up b/c “it wasn’t right!” Ugh. Just commit people. Commit and work it out.

        • SP08

          This is why the Black community is in shambles. Marriage is the cornerstone of society, for it produces the most stable family structure. When we started as women buying into the feminist foolishness about us not needing men, it created a ripple effect in the Black family. When men started not to appreciate the women they are with that too caused issues.

          Now Black women are going around just having babies with some of the lowest class of men, not demanding any respect, then the Black men are more than content to randomly screw women till they think they have had their fill. We have become selfish in every way, and it is destroying any semblance of the family.

          Men think they are missing something because somehow in their deluded brains they think they can get a better woman than the one they have. I mean everything could be going GREAT but because of this covetous attitude of always wanting more the men always find a way to cheat and screw it up. The women need to also let these men BE MEN and stop babying them. This is a result of single motherhood and not enough engaged fathers in the Black community willing to train up men to find mates and be good providers. On the contrary, they are trained up to be predatory when it comes to women, and the women today are even following suit.

          I WANT NO PARTS OF THIS DYSFUNCTION. I am marrying a Hispanic man, and he even displayed this dysfunction too, but I had to get him together, and let him know I wasn’t with being his next plaything, and he STEPPED TO THE PLATE. That is all any woman wants… now the women have to be trained up to actually handle and respect a man who is willing to do that for her.

          • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

            This reads like someone who completely ignorant to the history of community with Black people in American and across the Diaspora. Marriage isn’t going to better the Black community.

            • au napptural

              I agree to a certain extent. “Marriage” isn’t a band-aid to cover all the wounds of the black community. But I think changing the attitudes behind why the black community is marrying later could def. solve many problems. We, as a people, major in the minors. This post is going to get so many hits, but how many black people “educated or not” can name four justices on the Supreme Court. I was talking to a car full of people about the gay marriage vote and all they could talk about was God this and Jesus that, then they were shocked when I talked about Kagan’s position. One said, “I didn’t know there was another woman on the Court besides Sonia.” Someone else thought Sonia was the first woman. EVER. And these are “educated people.”
              Go down a socio-economic rung or two and people expend more energy on their sneakers or weaves than their relationships. It’s the same problem at both levels. As a whole, black people care more about appearances than substance. When you go to a black event, even if you aren’t on stage, you have to be dressed to the nines. Some people spent as much on their outfit as Rhianna did when they went to her concert. And it’s in every area of life. For the bourgie people, you have resume builders. They dance on every set, president of every org., pledged, and can’t speak English. God alone knows the last time they read a book.

              I’m not downing black people, but I think every problem we have, from low graduation rates to low marriage rates is indicative of the same issues. It’s like a healthy relationship? A thriving marriage? What is that going to get me? Who can I show that off to? Thus we remain in the same straits.

              • Cali

                there’s some valid points in here…

          • Brother Mouzone

            I WANT NO PARTS OF THIS DYSFUNCTION. I am marrying a Hispanic man, and he even displayed this dysfunction too, but I had to get him together, and let him know I wasn’t with being his next plaything, and he STEPPED TO THE PLATE. That is all any woman wants… now the women have to be trained up to actually handle and respect a man who is willing to do that for her.

            So basically, you felt like the hispanic guy was worth working on and “getting him together” but ALLLLLL the brothas that you’ve come across in your life needed to come at you correct from the start with NO ISSUES whatsoever…hmmmm, I see.

        • Sigma_Since 93

          “Yep. I be like, what chu waiting on? I wish black people would emulate the white attitude to marriage”

          We are but this thread is only focused on one reason given for waiting.

          Fact:
          Men and Women are waiting longer to get married due to advancement in careers and offestting debt incurred during college.

          If you, and I, claim to be VSS and VSB’s and you know this infomation, wouldn’t it make sense when you hear someone say I’m trying to get my stuff together??? Wouldn’t having his stuff together allow him to take you out, buy THE ring, have a portion for the house downpayment without you feeling used because you may have the ability to more readily do these things?

          I was one of those men who felt I needed to have my house in order. My wife said “If you have your house in order, what are we building towards if everything is done?” Long and short, we’ve almost been married for 10 years. There are times that come up where things go left that we could have avoided if I had the time prior to marriage to handle them properly. Women say that you accept us flaws and all no Beyonce but when those same flaws come back to hinder your progress, ish gets real. A real man doesn’t want to have that happen.

          Now you can go back to talking about the scrub men and women who do the latter.

          *Steps off soapbox to finish afternoon coffee

          • au napptural

            I’m not saying marry the first person who smiles at you when you don’t have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of, but you completely ignore the fact people who aren’t “established” date, mate, and have kids every day, but need magical unicorns to come down from the sky before they get married. Run on sentence- just like these people who are together upteen years before marrying, if they every do.

            I’m fresh out of college at 24, and I’ve seen people together since high school who still aren’t married. What’s the wait? Either you know them or you don’t, it’s been 7 years. Damn. All these people talking about struggling and getting established. What’s the difference between living with someone and sharing the bills and being married? What’s the astronomical change? If you’re single, all that money you spend going to the club, out on dates, on trips where you hope to get some, could be helping to get you established. And if you have kids OOW…really, what you waiting on? I’m not saying we aren’t in a recession but somehow our grandparents managed to marry and have families during a Depression. It’s possible.

            But the truth is this generation is selfish. And that’s fine. I’m selfish myself. But let’s not act like, oh it’s just too hard to be married now. We have (proportionally and even controlling for inflation) a hell of a lot more than earlier generations of black folk. It’s just nobody wants to give up their good thing, their own life, unless they get alll the guarantees. A fine spouse with the cash. A gorgeous freak who is going to cook every day. Whatever. No one wants to just take the person who is 70-80% of what they NEED and say “hey, we’re going to have good times and bad times but let’s just work at it and build something that will last.”
            *chilling w/ Chick-fil-a lemonade

            • au napptural

              And I meant to add, I have a cousin who is a doctor, in her residency who got married to a Nigerian doctor in his residency about a year ago. They don’t even live in the same STATE. But they fly to see each other on weekends. At the wedding some people, my side, the black Americans, asked him why not wait a few years. When they are settled in the same place and have more stability. His answer: they are always going to be obstacles but either you want to be with the person or you don’t. If you do, nothing can keep you apart.

              • KENYADIGIT

                Some people just want to philander. I think its that or they havent found someone they want to jump the broom with.

                I dont agree with stringing someone along but I also dont agree that you should get wed when you dont want to.

    • Cali

      “Whereas, we brothas rightly or wrongly will take longer if not years to wife sistas and that’s really our fault.”

      mmm hmm… it’s as if our wait time for these dudes to come around is indefinite :( Bring it on, Stuart.

    • Ani-Q

      “What I’m hearing from my sista friends are that white dudes know automatically if they want to wife you within that 6 month period and act on it.”

      It would seem that this statement is fast becoming a fact, especially now that so many of us are starting to enter into interracial relationships.
      For my girls and I, we hate the “let’s just kick it or lets see where it goes” attitude that we seem to always come across with BM; always making us feel like we when were trying to understand where we fit in ‘the plan’ that we were pushy, needy and/or scheming.

      • Ani-Q

        correction>>>>>

        always making us feel like we were pushy, needy and/or scheming, when we were trying to understand where we fit into ‘the plan’.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        @Ms. Ani-Q:
        From my comment downthread:
        “I say this in response to notions/rationalizations/reasons quite a few Sistas Swirlers give as to why they, well, swirl – because White Men seem more amenable to settling down and/or putting a ring on it than are Brothas. Now I won’t deign to speak for our White brothers, but what I will unequivicably say on behalf of my Brothas is, one, the statement is at best incomplete and at worst downight intellectually dishonest: there are plenty of Brothas out there who are more than willing to settle down with you. Ahh, but you see, they aren’t the desirable Brothas so many Sistas want and often complain about (read: tall, handsome/good looking, well built/athletic, well/highly educated from highly reputable universities, gainfully employed in the professions with attendant high-earning salaries, etc., et al, AND, is ready/willing to marry), all the while revealing their equal parts ignorance of basic Econ 101 and as well, their Black Female Entitlement issues. What they’ve failed to grok is that while the Civil Rights and Women’s Movements have freed them from many of the downsides of living life in the Black community, it has also freed many Brothas – especially those in a position to best maximize it – from the very same limitations – among them, marriage. Black Women, like their sisters White Women, frame the shortcomings of marriage back in the day as an issue and concern that only Women themselves had to deal with and were indeed limited by; they couldn’t fathom the possibility that marriage often sucked for quite a few Men, including, perhaps especially, Black Men, too. Let’s face it, all Women aren’t Wifey Material, nor was marriage a crystal stair for arguably millions of Black Men, many of whom worked jobs they hated, did things they didn’t want to do, and gave up on their own dreams and aspirations in the name of doing the right thing and supposedly being a Man. Simply put, in our time, quite a few Brothas – including and perhaps especially those Brothas most able to do so – simply have other ideas of what they want their lives to be, and that may not include marriage. And that’s perfectly OK – they should be free to find their destiny, just as much as any Sista. We’re Black, but we ain’t the Borg Hive Mind, here. There are plenty of Women, of all races, who are perfectly good with a live-in, non-marital arrangement, based on trust, love and mutual respect. Black Men should be free to pursue them, without being subject to the moralistic preenings of others, Black Women or otherwise.”

        Would love to get your response…

        O.

        • BriA

          Funny you keep saying that BW only want BM with all those qualities you mentioned, but are you going to ignore that there are some “average” (which is subjective) Black men that aren’t trying to date “average” BW. Even the average BM I know (key words: I KNOW) are walking around thinking they are entitled to some light-skinned, long hair, perfect body, “dime piece” and if you don’t have those qualities, you are considered “basic.” Not that it’s a reliable source of information, but #Blacktwitter is a testament to this. I’ve never seen the most average of men proclaim that they are too good for average women.

          I guess I’m confused as to why it seems to be ok for BM to date women based on superficial reasons, but if BW do it, we are shallow with too high standards.

          • AfroPetite

            Agreed. I think Obsidian glosses over this fact because it would be in glaring opposition of everything he’s said thus far.

            Apparently the women we speak of are the proverbial “exception and not the rule”. Don’t fight him on it. Just know that with O, intelligent, well rounded, soup kitchen serving, above average having IQ, cooking, cleaning, and any other positive quality women are always the minority while Great black men have always been and forever will be in excess :-)

            In summation, Obsidian really wants you to know that Black women ain’t sh!t, won’t ever be sh!t, and their problem is that they get in their own way and deserve to be miserable for not picking nerdy black men with the personality of a piece of cardboard, who don’t work out and have 3 inch pen!ses with equally dismal stroke prowess.

            • IcePrincess3

              Ohhhhhh sh*ttttttttt! And that, my friends, is a READ. :-)

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              @Ms. AfroPetite:
              “Agreed. I think Obsidian glosses over this fact because it would be in glaring opposition of everything he’s said thus far.”

              O: Quite the contrary; I pride myself on being an honest debater in good faith.

              “Apparently the women we speak of are the proverbial “exception and not the rule”. Don’t fight him on it. Just know that with O, intelligent, well rounded, soup kitchen serving, above average having IQ, cooking, cleaning, and any other positive quality women are always the minority while Great black men have always been and forever will be in excess :-)”

              O: No, I wouldn’t argue that at all; by now I thought you of all people would know that I’m rather pointed in my writings, and rarely lump any one group into one big pot. For example, I have often made numerous distinctions when discussing Black Women, because clearly there are differing types, i.e., lower class Ratchet type, middle and upper middle class Bougie types, and so forth. Here in the current discussion, it is clear that we are discussing a group of Black Women who have been able to successfully Swirl, something I readily acknowledged and conceded – so what’s the debate, again? I forgot… ;)

              “In summation, Obsidian really wants you to know that Black women ain’t sh!t, won’t ever be sh!t, and their problem is that they get in their own way and deserve to be miserable for not picking nerdy black men with the personality of a piece of cardboard, who don’t work out and have 3 inch pen!ses with equally dismal stroke prowess.”

              O: Again, quite the contrary – I think one of the great leaps forward we’ve made as a people, and by that I mean, as an American People, is that we’ve chucked certain oldhat notions onto the trash heap of history – and rightly so. No longer are Women, Black or otherwise, rich or poor, beautiful or homely, utterly dependent on any Man in order to live, have a roof over her head, indeed to raise a family – all of this is in my view a good thing(!). But I think that’s only a part of the story that isn’t being told, and that is my mission to do here, at my blog and elsewhere on the Internet. Let me say something else: I think it is a vey good thing that no Man has to be settled for, either – and let’s be frank, that has happened a lot more than we’re willing to admit in the past. Today, Women can be with who they truly tingle for – and that’s all for the better. Sure, there will be fewer happy couples than from the past, and to be sure, all guys won’t find a seat when the music stops – but the tradeoff, I think, will have been worth it.

              Any other questions? ;)

              O.

              • AfroPetite

                Actually, yes.

                What is your definition of a good man? Skin color and college education aside. What makes for a stellar male mate for an upwardly mobile woman of today in Obsidian’s opinion?

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  @Ms. AfroPetite:

                  Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I do not think I am in a position to tell you or anyone else what such a Man would be; that is best decided by Women themselves. Men then then determine if they have the traits, qualities and resources said Women have made clear they desire. If they do and are willing to engage, great! If not, they must decide if they are willing to do what it takes to acquire them, or, not to engage at all.

                  Hope that answers your question.

                  O.

                  • AfroPetite

                    You just like to filibuster the heck out of everything.

                    But ok. You got it.

            • SweetSass

              I am trying not to bust out laughing at work.

            • Todd

              Excellent point. Sadly, I also know their female counterparts.

              Somply put, ninjas act like d and nani are entitlements like Medicaid.

            • au napptural

              Damn, AfroPetite. Say it with your chest,girl!

          • Brother Mouzone

            One thing you fail to realize is that it’s the WOMAN who CHOOSES in a relationship. A guy can WANT all th light-skinned, dime pieces he wants, but one of those has to CHOOSE him or nothing happens. Even a “basic” woman can just say “yes I accept” because she’s gonna get attention from a variety of different men. In the end, the guy she decides to be with is the one SHE CHOSE, he was just one of many to holla, but the one who ended up with her because that’s who she WANTED.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. Bria:
            “Funny you keep saying that BW only want BM with all those qualities you mentioned, but are you going to ignore that there are some “average” (which is subjective) Black men that aren’t trying to date “average” BW.”

            O: Absolutely not – I freely and fully acknowledge the fact that a failure to properly calibrate one’s mate value is not something that is the sole preserve of Women, Black or otherwise; I quote Prof. David Buss:

            “The competition to attract the most desirable mates is ferocious. Consequently, those most valuable are perpetually in short supply compared to the many who desire them. People who are themselves high in mate value succeed in attracting the most desirable partners. In the crude informal American metric, the 9s and 10s pair off with other 9s and 10s. And with decreasing value from the 8s to the 1s, people must lower their mating sights commensurately. Failure to do so produces a higher probability of rejection and psychological anguish. As one woman advised her male friend who bemoaned his frustration about his lack of interest in the women attracted to him and the unreciprocated interest by women to whom he was attracted, “you’re an 8 looking for 9s and being sought after by 7s.”

            The Mating Wars http://edge.org/response-detail/23862

            “Even the average BM I know (key words: I KNOW) are walking around thinking they are entitled to some light-skinned, long hair, perfect body, “dime piece” and if you don’t have those qualities, you are considered “basic.” Not that it’s a reliable source of information, but #Blacktwitter is a testament to this. I’ve never seen the most average of men proclaim that they are too good for average women.”

            O: I perfectly understand. If it’s any consolation, consider this: we, as a people, Black people now, well, we have higher expectations than we did in the past. Black Women of the sort the Brothas you’re talking about, were back in the day accessible only to the topmost Brothas, most of whom were not in Black peoples’ faces all the time. Today, we all get to see what’s possible and achieveable, even if it isn’t for us in actual fact. Im reluctant to blame everything that comes down the pike on the media, but I do think it has a role to play here.

            In any event, and here I would seriously urge you to pickup a book called A Billion Wicked Thoughts, the bottomline is this: s*xual attraction, simply isn’t a choice. Men, even those very average Brothas you know and mention, have every rght to be s*xually attracted to whomever they please. Whether they have what it takes to effectively barter in the SMP however, is another matter – as is how they deal/cope with it should things not work out to their liking.

            “I guess I’m confused as to why it seems to be ok for BM to date women based on superficial reasons, but if BW do it, we are shallow with too high standards.”

            O: Because no one wants to be rejected. It hurts – not physically, but as Buss has made clear in the quote (and I truly do hope you, and everyone reading this, reads his thoughts in full by clicking the provided link), psychologically – which is just as real. Of course, people have the right to select or reject, potential suitors for whatever reason they wish; but it’s easy to say that when you’re not on the receiving end of such rejections – and this is especially true if you’ve rarely been there yourself, compared to those who’ve been there in some cases, hundreds, even thousands of times.

            Let me end by making this crystal clear: Black Women have every right to be attracted to whomever, for whatever reason they wish. They are under no obligation to explain, rationalize or justify their preferences and choices to anyone. And for anyone – Black or White, male or female – the laws of the s*xual economy come into play: you get what you can afford and negotiate.

            Hope that makes my position clear.

            O.

          • SP08

            Black women are expected to aim low because somehow we are on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to attractiveness. YET the men can aim for the ideal and not be persecuted for it.

            I am so not in that lane anymore. I know my worth and it intimidates a lot of jokers who aren’t up for the challenge. Come correct or stay home….

            • BriA

              SP08:

              I don’t agree with some stuff you have posted but I have to #cosign this one!

              This is the root of the problem. It’s like “Who are you as a Black woman to expect anything better. You better take what you can get because yall aren’t being chosen.”

              That’s why some men are butthurt when you reject them (for whatever reason) because they think some of us are so desperate that we should put up with anything/body.

              • Brother Mouzone

                That’s why some men are butthurt when you reject them (for whatever reason) because they think some of us are so desperate that we should put up with anything/body.

                First of all, when we see you with a 2520, there’s not a feeling of rejection(that’s what Black WOMEN feel when they see BM/WW)it’s the attitude of “I’m with him BECAUSE he’s better than ya’ll ninjas” that exudes from a lot of sistas. And we don’t think you should put up with anything or anybody.

                • BriA

                  I don’t mean reject in the sense of rejecting BM for WM, I meant just in general for a reason like him not approaching me properly or not having a job, etc.

        • a boy and his demondog 06

          “We’re Black, but we ain’t the Borg Hive Mind, here. There are plenty of Women, of all races, who are perfectly good with a live-in, non-marital arrangement, based on trust, love and mutual respect.”

          i like this comment here.
          i think of a woman in my family, she’s in her mid 40’s, been struggling to find a man for almost a decade….the problem is, back in the early 2000’s she had a real good dude. handy around the house, good blue collar job, took her kids in as if they were his own..in my view they seem to be a good couple….she ended up giving dude the boot because he wouldn’t marry her…wasn’t cheating on her, paid the bills…but that wasn’t good enough…

          so my question is, what would you rather have, the illusion and idea that society force feeds us about marriage? or the actual dude that you’re dealing with?
          do you want the idea or the actual dude?

          this perplexes me that a chick will pass me over even when our chemistry is a beast, simply because i don’t want the burden of marriage, for some theoretical dude that she may or may not ever find?

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            “i think of a woman in my family, she’s in her mid 40′s, been struggling to find a man for almost a decade….the problem is, back in the early 2000′s she had a real good dude. handy around the house, good blue collar job, took her kids in as if they were his own..in my view they seem to be a good couple….she ended up giving dude the boot because he wouldn’t marry her…wasn’t cheating on her, paid the bills…but that wasn’t good enough…”

            Isn’t that a Tyler Perry movie?

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              every black family has multiple women like this at some point

          • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com/ Aly

            There it is again… the idea that people should compromise what they want in a relationship. You haven’t, so why should your relative?

            You obviously don’t want to get married. Awesome. A lot of people don’t. But your relative DOES, and it appears that she believes so strongly in marriage that she’s willing to sacrifice an otherwise “good dude” for it. There’s nothing wrong with that.

            I don’t like the idea of trying to scare or shame people into relationships that aren’t for them.

            • AfroPetite

              DING! DING! DING!

              Why would I keep eating shellfish if I soon discover that I’m allergic to them?

            • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

              We all compromise. I am engaged and I compromised.

              No person is perfect at all. They all have faults. And in the dating/relationship realm, we compromise. We weigh the good vs the bad and make a choice. The faults my fiancee has are easy enough to deal with. Her good points are very high and very much outweigh the bad. We hate to say it but well make this calculation

              • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com/ Aly

                Absolutely. I agree that we all have to compromise, but not about something so important as whether or not to get married. That’s a big deal for a lot of people.

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              but she gave up a good relationship that made her happy…all over a title! now her looks are gone, she has teenage kids. a no one still has married her…or ever even proposed

              • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com/ Aly

                It wasn’t a good relationship if she wanted to get married and he didn’t. That makes them incompatible.

                It seems like you’re trying to project your beliefs about marriage onto other people. For some, it’s more than just a title or piece of paper.

                • a boy and his demondog 06

                  well regardless she’s lonely, he’s not…and he was the last dude that liked her…

              • salaam

                @DD…
                and i think that if you want her to consider his view on marriage – then he has to consider hers as well. and if they are on opposite ends of the spectrum on something that they both felt strongly enough about to not sacrifice each of their positions, then they ultimately were not as good a match as it may have seemed.

          • salaam

            “this perplexes me that a chick will pass me over even when our chemistry is a beast, simply because i don’t want the burden of marriage, for some theoretical dude that she may or may not ever find?”

            you know what??? the women that i know that have been in long term relationships with men that very honestly told them up front that they were not interested in marriage (but were great guys otherwise) went forward with those relationships b/c women tend to believe that they can “change” men…like “oh, he feels that way now, but after we’ve been together for X amount of time, he’ll feel differently b/c i’m that one to change his mind”…then when it doesn’t happen – they’re genuinely hurt/upset….but i’m thinking well d@mn…didn’t he tell you that from the get-go??? this is one issue that i personally feel is a big @ss #FAIL on the part of black women… i think it happens for a myriad of reasons, and when we(women) really step back and look at the situation, most of the time the writing was on the wall from day one.

            • SweetSass

              So women who want marriage are right to avoid these type of men… Why this flys over Demondogs head, idk.

              • a boy and his demondog 06

                and yet they don’t….or we wouldn’t be having this conversation now would we?

                • Brother Mouzone

                  BOOOM!!!!

            • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

              “you know what??? the women that i know that have been in long term relationships with men that very honestly told them up front that they were not interested in marriage (but were great guys otherwise) went forward with those relationships b/c women tend to believe that they can “change” men…”

              And that’s it really. Men do this too but I notice men often will broadcast their intentions. It is 2013 and for many men and women marriage is not the choice for a stable union. These men and women tend to be honest and up front about this.

              It’s the folks that want to marry lying to themselves.

              • SP08

                I agree with this. There are a lot of women who think they can change a man who isn’t marriage minded. This is why women need to STOP wasting time with men who don’t have the same intentions as they do. I ask about marriage very quickly, and if a guy isn’t at least open to the possibility of getting married, that will be our LAST DATE. I won’t change his mind, no matter how wonderful I am. Women need to realize this, their lives will be better for it.

                • a boy and his demondog 06

                  so you will not mess with a potentially good dude because he’s not talkin about marriage from day 1…you don’t even no each other yet

                  • KENYADIGIT

                    I agree with SPO8. If dude dont want the same things you do, move on.

                    Look at it this way. If a chick you went on a first date on said she dont have sex before marriage what would you do?

                    • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

                      Marriage on the first date is a bit much though. Granted, I am engaged but I would have been scared away if someone brings up marriage on the first date.

          • IcePrincess3

            I totes agree witchu, demondog. Life happens while ppl are busy making their plans. It’s crazy. Just live in the moment if everything is going good! Some folks are jus so brainwashed to need that piece of paper.

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              thank you ice…at least someone knows what i’m getting at

          • Kema

            “this perplexes me that a chick will pass me over even when our chemistry is a beast, simply because i don’t want the burden of marriage, for some theoretical dude that she may or may not ever find?”

            It perplexes the chick that you would pass her over even when you have great chemistry just because you let marriage scare you all over this theoretical burden that marriage will bring.

            • http://saysmeblog.wordpress.com/ Aly

              I see what you did there Kema.

            • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

              yup. aint nothing like a willful mismatch to create confusion, misunderstanding, and bad vibes ..

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              WRONG! saying that i don’t want to be forced by the state to be with you..is not saying that i don’t want to be with you.

              i know plenty of dudes that are still with their wives because it would mean financial castration to leave the loveless union.

              if i choose to stay with a chick, it’s because i want to be with her…not because she has “papers” on me

              • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

                And the church says amen!

              • au napptural

                And that’s fine. But from the woman’s point of view you want to be with her today. But like your friends got tired of being married, maybe you will get tired of your relationship, and then what? Nothing to show for it but some memories. Marriage gives a level of security, legal and social.

                But I’m curious about two things Demondog: first, since you don’t want to marry, what does your relationship ideal include? Do you want children? When you have a long-term relationship what would that entail? And second if your old flame has a teenager and her looks are “gone”, how old are you?

                • a boy and his demondog 06

                  ” Nothing to show for it but some memories. Marriage gives a level of security, legal and social.”

                  and now we get to what this is really about..it comes down to resources. if a man wants a clean break, it’s gonna cost him…heavily, especially if kids are involved.

                  “And second if your old flame has a teenager and her looks are “gone”, how old are you?”

                  not me this is a female cousin of mine…

                  “what does your relationship ideal include? Do you want children? When you have a long-term relationship what would that entail?”

                  i can’t answer any of those questions because i’ve yet to meet a woman to whom my gut tells me “this is the one”

                  at the very least, there can’t be a question in my mind of “who’s really down with the d-dog”

          • blackphilo

            “so my question is, what would you rather have, the illusion and idea that society force feeds us about marriage? or the actual dude that you’re dealing with?
            do you want the idea or the actual dude?”

            “this perplexes me that a chick will pass me over even when our chemistry is a beast, simply because i don’t want the burden of marriage, for some theoretical dude that she may or may not ever find?”

            Thank you for raising these honest and real questions.

            Nowhere are you claiming what people “should” want. Nor are you “trying to scare or shame” anyone into anything.

            You are asking questions that make sense and are worth considering. Apparently, some readers would rather impose their own issues and straw men.

          • SP08

            MOST WOMEN WANT TO BE MARRIED. This non-committed mess is stuff men make up, ESPECIALLY BLACK MEN, so women can’t have any real expectations of them. Y’all run this game: “Oh we have a great relationship why RUIN it with marriage?”

            WHAT! You mean you want all the BENEFITS of marriage without the COMMITMENT of marriage. I kick Negros like that to the curb on a regular basis. You will not get the best of what I have to offer without making a commitment to me. This attitude about marriage is prevalent amongst men today. Y’all can have it your penis ain’t that good for me to be played for multiple years.

            • Charlie

              Chile who hurt you? Damn.

            • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

              “WHAT! You mean you want all the BENEFITS of marriage without the COMMITMENT of marriage. ”

              Yes. Don’t sleep. Your home girl’s husband did too.

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              so then you’re in love with the idea?

              so you can just insert any marriage minded dude into your cookie cutter life?

              i don’t want to be married because no woman has ever made a case for me on why i should.

              i don’t put the carriage before the horse.

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              so i gotta marry you in order to see if you’re wifey material then?

          • au napptural

            Let’s see. The woman should get with you why? She knows her mind and she wants to be on a path somewhere to a happy marriage and some kids, rather than “kicking it” into oblivion. Why should see compromise her standards? That’s like some mud-duck woman coming onto you and saying “I’m right here, forget your hopes and dreams of the Beyonce knock-off. I’m the best you can get.” Sexy, huh?

            I have to say, if you choose not to marry, be prepared for some women to choose to pass you over. That’s life.

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              you completely missed my point

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

            ~ i don’t want the burden of marriage

            word. you gotta find women who feel the same, not question why women who do want marriage compromise their dreams.

            • Cali

              THIIIIIIIS!

        • Ani-Q

          I really dont know how to respond to you but I am going to speak only for myself.

          I am aware how unfair my statement is but it has been my truth. I am also not overly concern with if I am wifey material(I dont make that determination) and the guys I have dated have expressed desire to get married someday.
          My major battle with BM (that I have came across) has always been this “I have to get my sh*t together” slogan. As I said in the above thread, I have never truly understand this and when I try to get a better understand where the relationship fit into this plan, I am met with I am not understanding/supportive, I am pushy/needy. So in my attempts to just be happy, I stopped pushing away the non-BM who showed interest in me; and when I did that I was just in shock. It was so quick and I didnt feel like a bully when I talk about where the relationship is going. Then my girls who were also starting to have IR began to experience the same thing; the seduction of not having to fight for a commitment is a high. It was confusing and exhilarating and a relief to not have to worry that I am going to be the woman in a 10+ year relationship with 3 kids but not as a wife. I have no illusion that relationship and love needs work but I dont know how to convey that without appearing to be insensitive to BM own’s struggles. All I know is I really dont want to be the women in my family. I really dont want to keep making this almost pathological mistake. I fear it is in my DNA to give all that I am to man that knew from the d*mn beginning that I cant be part of the ‘the plan’ But despite this restoration of my confidence that I am not so bad and I can have a relationship with the intention of it being long term, it still does not answer why it seems to work with this WM and not with the BM. What was I doing wrong??? Herein lies the possible reason for my own jealousy of BM and non-BW in relationship. How is it that she can get you but I couldnt?
          *shrugs*

          • SP08

            @Ani-Q I REFUSE to be the “ride or die” chick. I REFUSE. Ladies keep your standards high. Let the men bitch. They will only have to raise their standards to get with us. End of story.

            • Ani-Q

              Well,I dont think standards are the problem and I doubt men need to raise anything. I am just saying that there is some miscommunication between me and those who meets the standards.

              Plus I have no problem being supportive, I just dont want to be taken advantage of.

      • SP08

        “For my girls and I, we hate the ‘let’s just kick it or lets see where it goes’ attitude that we seem to always come across with BM; always making us feel like we when were trying to understand where we fit in ‘the plan’ that we were pushy, needy and/or scheming.”

        *applause*

        THANK YOU.

    • http://inanimatethoughts.blogspot.com/ Animate

      I have a theory as to why that exists possibly.

      • Sweet GA Brown

        Do share.

        • http://inanimatethoughts.blogspot.com/ Animate

          Depending on one’s upbringing, parental involvement will vary of course. One thing that I have noticed is that white people in particular have a system of generational wealth that gets passed down. I’ve seen it with my own eyes people buying their kids a house when they are engaged. I’m not saying that black families don’t do it but the majority of us don’t have that benefit right now. We may be building it but its not current.

          I don’t know if such things are discussed within the family before hand but I’d be more likely to propose “sooner” if I would have some of the financial burden of starting a family removed.

          I see white families having no problem with kids moving back in to get on their feet. What do I see from black families enough of the time? Once you turn 18 and leave the house you are on your own. Keys taken, plate broken, and don’t call us asking for help. It’s very much “I got mine, you get yours” like we see some benefit to unnecessary struggle.

          • Marshal

            See, Rewind was on to something last week when he said BM for whatever reason or another, are Damned if We Do, Damned if We Don’t and for the most part damn near everybody was trying to clown his perspective…

            His .02 would be perfect to set all this “BM are Shyte” nonsense going on. Weren’t there TONS of VSS that were all against the whole “Lean In” POV of the Facebook COO, & the lady who wrote the “Princeton and College Women SHOULD find a Husband n Undergrad” because there is More to Women than Marriage and Kids?????

            Selective Memory is in full display today……

          • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

            solid theory

    • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

      I’ve heard all omen are having these marriage issues, not just black women. I think it’s fair to argue that perhaps black America has not come value marriage in the same way other communities have. Perhaps that’s where this perception comes from…

      i can say this may be a regional thing. depending in where you are in the world, men are very much in to committed relationships (read: the country) and “dating” to a certain extent is looked down upon.

  • marissa

    Nah. I’m from Seattle, Home of the biracial baby ( with a blk dad) but the numbers are getting more equal.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      yeah, the west coast is a different animal. y’all don’t count

  • SP08

    Well I haven’t seen all these Black men marrying and dating Black women, and when I say Black I mean “all the way” Black, both parents Black, no “Indian in my family” type girls, just to be honest.

    I concur with the poster Lou. Many women in my age range 27-35 who have degrees have simply given up on finding a BW with similar credentials. It is their preference to be with a BW for the most part, but have quit thinking they have to be loyal to a BW when they have all but abandoned BW for other races. Of COURSE I am speaking in general and this doesn’t apply to ALL BM. BW are dating White, Hispanic, Asian etc. men in droves today as it is more socially acceptable. If they like it I love it.

    Personally, I want to get married, and Black men are allergic to marriage, and want a chick to put up with their mess for 10 years or more before they have to be forced to give their sorry hands in marriage. They seem to want to play around and ain’t nobody got time for that. So while I would love to marry a Black man, they sure don’t wanna marry ANYONE at this point, and when they do half those women are of other race. My desires at this point are more in line with men who have been culturally prone to getting married and STAYING that way.

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      But, you do know that most Black men who get married marry Black women, right? I think it’s somewhere around 86% of Black men marry Black women. So, how is it that Black men aren’t marrying Black women? And why do you figure Black men don’t get married? I know tons of Black men who are married. In fact most of the Black men I know are married and married to Black women.

      I think the media, over the last 10 years, has really brainwashed a lot of Black women into thinking that Black men are all dating IR or don’t want to get married.

      • SP08

        I can only go off what I have seen. I cannot tell you the last time I went to a wedding and a Black man married a Black woman. There was one in 2011 and the man was in his 60’s.

        Most of the weddings I see and hear of are of either Blacks marrying someone of another race, or other races marrying each other.

        • Honeytrap26

          This reminds me of a friend. She would say that black men don’t want to marry her, yet most of her ex-bfs have gotten married. I had to sit her down one day and tell her, “It’s not that they didn’t want to get married. They just didn’t want to marry YOU.”

          • a boy and his demondog 06

            and there’s that elephant in the room…..

          • Brother Mouzone

            “This reminds me of a friend. She would say that black men don’t want to marry her, yet most of her ex-bfs have gotten married. I had to sit her down one day and tell her, “It’s not that they didn’t want to get married. They just didn’t want to marry YOU.”

            I didn’t wanna say it, but I’m sure this story applies to several of todays comment posters…

          • SP08

            Well it is easy to make that assumption based on a few posts on a board. Since the one I’m with NOW just proposed and all, I really don’t see your point LOL. I’m just telling the truth many don’t wanna hear.

            • Brother Mouzone

              Well it is easy to make that assumption based on a few posts on a board. Since the one I’m with NOW just proposed and all, I really don’t see your point LOL. I’m just telling the truth many don’t wanna hear.

              See my comment about your “proposer”

              • Brother Mouzone

                Why would someone who was proposed to have so much ANGER toward the hundreds that wouldn’t???

                • a boy and his demondog 06

                  one who is in such a good relationship, seldom seems such need to have such vitriol…this chick is mad that no one chose her…so she’s pissed.

          • Todd

            *ron simmons voice*. damn!

      • SP08

        You know “tons” of Black men who are married? In MY age range? I would love to find one of these marrying Black men because honey they don’t approach me. Most of em just want casual sex without commitment. Just telling my truth.

        • Charlie

          “they don’t approach me. Most of em just want casual sex without commitment.”

          I wonder why…

          • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

            I wonder too. Cant be that she is so closed minded.

          • SP08

            So it has to be my fault eh? Typical response from those who don’t want to examine themselves.

            • Charlie

              Sweetheart, the main person who needs some examining (preferably self examination) is you.

              • SP08

                I have examined myself just fine. Tired of people deflecting blame when a serious issue with men is brought up. If you aren’t willing to fix you don’t complain when someone calls you out on your mess.

                IF IT DOESN’T APPLY, LET IT FLY.

                • salaam

                  sounding very cochran-esque..

                • Marshal

                  Sorry, you need more than Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew, and Iyanla: Fix My Life for your Problems….

                  Real Talk

                  • SP08

                    Real talk… you have not one f’ing clue as to what my problems are or the solutions. Keep it moving.

                    • Marshal

                      Well then, Quit refrecening YOURSELF and the arseholes YOU DEALT WITH to speak for ALL Women and ALL MEN.

                      See, problem solved

            • a boy and his demondog 06

              you know what i’ll say it no need to sugar coat

              YES IT”S YOUR FAULT!

              and you might take your own advice because YOU are the only common denominator in why dudes aren’t choosing you

        • Salaam

          @sp08…..if you haven’t been to a wedding that involved two black people getting married then you just need more people. Black men still by far marry black women. But maybe you don’t get invited to those weddings because you’re concerned with telling us black women about our attitudes and f’d up ways…*shrug*

          • http://inanimatethoughts.blogspot.com/ Animate

            2 internets for you!

          • SP08

            You folks are in denial. Its OK though let the Black community continue to slip because of the ways of its people. You don’t like my “tone” cause it shatters your perfect little “Oh all Black men are awesome” world you like to think exists. I’m in reality… good luck with that.

            • salaam

              lol….sounds good my dear but #NOT!! no one here has said that all black men are awesome – but no one here is saying that all black men suck either. you need even more people than i previously thought.

              • SP08

                I’ve never said they ALL suck either. I don’t have that attitude in general.

          • Todd

            +1

        • Rachmo

          Hmmm yeah judging from your mean comments attacking Black men I’d say that you give off one of the most unapproachable vibes ever. So that’s cool you can just save the nice marrying Black guys for us regular ladies. Thanks

        • h.h.h.

          “You know “tons” of Black men who are married? In MY age range?”

          dunno your age, but i went to 4 weddings last year…all the guys were between 30-33, all the gals were between 30-33

          live your life tho *shrugs*

      • Todd

        Amen Val!

      • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

        ~ I think the media, over the last 10 years, has really brainwashed a lot of Black women into thinking that Black men are all dating IR or don’t want to get married.

        Miss Val, i quite agree. the media ~always~ has an agenda. the “reporting” has a very real effect, which is the distortion of public perception through repetition of fear-based storylines. the easiest tactic to achieve this effect is divide and conquer, the gold standard of social control.

        #dontbelievethehype

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          @Ms. Esa:
          I know we’ve sparred over this point before, that of the supposed power of the media, but Imma have to respectfully disagree here.

          The problem isn’t Black Women being “brainwashed” by the media; the problem is a lot of Black Women shooting too far out of their league SMPwise. Look, let’s face it, “Barack Obama Brothas” ae in precious short supply – and like any good or service or commodity that is highly valued, it/they can and will demand their price…and many Sistas simply cannot afford it. That doesn’t make anyone bad or wrong. It’s simply the s*xual marketplace at work. That’s all it is.

          O.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

            Mr. O,

            i will grant you this. it is not a one-dimensional position with a simple answer of “media is bad.” perceptions are multi-determined, and perhaps most influenced by life experience itself.

            i was thinking bout what you said about personal agency and i agree, everything cuts two ways and it is incumbent upon every individual to be responsible for what they consume, both in food, in conversation, in communion, in entertainment, etc.

            as to comments on marketplace value, well, ima steer real clear of that. this is your forte, not mine.

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

          Yep, Esa, once the media realized that some Black women were paying attention to all of the nonsense it was propagating (about Black women and relationships) it ran with it.

          Newspapers, TV, books, you name it have weighed in on the supposed plight of Black women. But, I really don’t think most Black women who ingest this stuff stop to consider the source.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

            yes, and i am quite curious about who is propagating this meme and to what end. having worked with countless editors, producers, and the like, i’m very suspicious about what runs (and what does not). and how it is used to gain ad dollars (and where those dollars are coming from)

            #verticalintegration

        • Brother Mouzone

          Miss Val, i quite agree. the media ~always~ has an agenda. the “reporting” has a very real effect, which is the distortion of public perception through repetition of fear-based storylines. the easiest tactic to achieve this effect is divide and conquer, the gold standard of social control.

          #dontbelievethehype

          Esa, you are my SHE-ROE for the day!!! Very well put.

          • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

            xoxo

      • SweetSass

        But a lot of women don’t want to wait until they are late thirties to get married. And all the time and delay and whatnot.

        If I was white, I am sure I’d be married by now. I went to an all white HS and every single one of my friends are hitched now. Often with people from high school.

        I moved to DC away from the lily white burb I grew up in because I was interested in meeting Black men. What a disappointment.

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

          Maybe things would have been different if you had gone to an all Black high school? I mean from what you’re saying it’s a numbers game, right.

          • SweetSass

            I am part of a cadre of other high achieving sistas who moved from the Midwest here. I met them at conferences, or we went to school together, etc. And all of us agree that moving to DC was good professionally but HORRID to our dating lives.

            • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

              Yeah, from what I hear D.C. has a ratio of 10 or 15 (Black) women for every (Black) man.

              • ReggieH

                I feel like this ratio can’t be accurate. Of course I’m basing this on my very non-scientific observations….

                And co-sign Rachmo, DC is rough. I’ve found the world away from my other side of the tracks NE home very interesting. Very transient.

            • Rachmo

              Hon, my white friends are just starting to get married. I don’t mean to be rude but DC is tough for everyone. Move to Bmore.

              • KENYADIGIT

                Why would you do that?
                DC is great for black men. Its like a buffet in these streets

                • Rachmo

                  Hahaha bc I’m a HETEROSEXUAL WOMAN @KENYADIGIT and need to cuddle too!

        • The Guy Formerly Know As Hmmmm

          You moved to DC to meet a black man FOR marriage or to just meet black men?

          I ask because I don’t know one black man that moved to DC to find a wife, even if they found a wife.

          • SweetSass

            No kidding. Because many BM’s attitude towards marriage that is hardly surprising.

            • http://vagabondaesthetics.tumblr.com Malik

              Black professionals move to DC or Atlanta because they don’t want to marry. It’s an accident when they do.

        • Todd

          From my perspective, jt is about what and what. while s.ight.y more brothers are single in my HS circle, everyone is marrying and having kids at the same rate. Additional humans requested.

          Oh, and about the rest of your remarks today? *sips tea*

      • Brother Mouzone

        think the media, over the last 10 years, has really brainwashed a lot of Black women into thinking that Black men are all dating IR or don’t want to get married.

        THANK YOU VAL!!! There is a beneficial(for the majority) reason for this thought to be thought. It may be a little too deep to explain however.

    • Charlie

      Generalizing much?

      • SP08

        Why you mad? LOL

        • Charlie

          “Black men are allergic to marriage, and want a chick to put up with their mess for 10 years or more before they have to be forced to give their sorry hands in marriage. They seem to want to play around and ain’t nobody got time for that.”

          That question should be directed to the person asking.

    • Negro Libre

      “They seem to want to play around and ain’t nobody got time for that. So while I would love to marry a Black man, they sure don’t wanna marry ANYONE at this point, and when they do half those women are of other race.”

      I come from a culture that embraces marriage, people here can attest to that. However, I can honestly tell you that American culture does not provide any incentive for men to get married, outside of tax incentives. No-fault divorces, 50% divorce rate, government-ownership of your children, unfair child support biases in the court of law, not to mention a system and professions (Family Law, Divorce Law, Social Services etc) whose survival and income is based on unstable family households and communal dysfunction.

      Many of these biases and tendencies in America, were developed to protect women and children from abusive or irresponsible men, and the reason why they were put into place, was because women in those times were percieved to be more virtuos than men: not as ambitious, not as abusive, not as vulgar; not as corruptible etc. Yet, in the 21st century, we all know that this simply isn’t true and women are just as capable and likely to abuse power when it’s given to them. Do we know what percentage or number of women do this – no; but how many people or institutions are willing to go out of their way to make that a reality?

      Now, truth is such realities evade most women, because such institutions are designed to protect them; who’s going to challenge something that exist for their own security? The only men who are aware of such aspects of American culture are rational men. Certainly, men who are irresponsible as well know about these things, even though they don’t understand them.

      So then, if you’re a rational man, what kind of woman are you going to be willing to marry and commit the rest of your life to: A queen perhaps: a woman who has baggage and wants you to make repeatedly convince her that you won’t betray her; a woman who thinks men ain’t sh*t and needs to need to be restrained and kept in check; a woman who thinks she’s a goddess and you should be blessed for having her; or perhaps a woman who has unresolved psychological, gender, racial issues and who views society as anti-her? This of course, might matter to the man who is rational while experiencing the irrationality that often comes when one feels lust, or much more so when one is in love with someone.

      Or maybe, the rational man is going to be more willing to choose the simple woman: the woman who can cook and clean and wants to; or maybe the woman who views a man’s trust in her loyalty as an essential and the foundation of his commitment: that his trust that she will endure, when he has to spend 80 hours at work for months at his job, or that when he pisses her off, that she won’t use her rage to perform acts that will have long term consequences far beyond the initial act that made her enraged in the first place, or that in time when her looks have faded and she’s put on a bunch of weight, that she won’t let her insecurity and paranoia, poison the relationship that they’ve built over the years.

      I wonder what will he choose: the Queen or what black women for the most part call a doormat? In a society, where it is risky to marry an unpredictable woman, who can bounce anytimes she wants, and have government officials and lawyers descend on you and your family and divide up your assets and your income, why would he not choose the “doormat?” (who could do the same thing anytime she wants, but is probably less likely to do so) The fact is, that black men do a lot of irrational things, many are careless sexually with protecting their futures, many do not hesitate to kill their own race; however, one thing black men will always be rational about is the government’s ability to take their freedom away (more so than other men of other races, because they have 400 yrs of histroy to back such an idea up), and when given the choice between love and the possibility of freedom being lost if love fails, I don’t think it’s that farfetched that they will choose rationality, unless the woman in question makes them change their mind by how she presents herself.

      Kanye Shrug.

      • E in CT

        Yeah, except those long-suffering ‘cooking and cleaning’ letthebrothabetheheadofhtehousehold chicks ain’t getting chose by black dudes either.

        Ebony Shrug.