Zerlina Maxwell is a friend of mine, and I understand where “Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped” — her latest piece at Ebony.com — is coming from.
I definitely agree that “Telling women that they can behave in a certain way to avoid rape creates a false sense of security and it isn’t the most effective way to lower the horrible statistics which show that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime.”
I also agree that “We need anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys. Campaigns that teach them from a young age how to respect women, and ultimately themselves, and to never ever be rapists. In addition, we should implore our men and boys to call out their friends, relatives, and classmates for inappropriate behavior and create systems of accountability amongst them.”
I even agree that “Our community, much like society-at-large, needs a paradigm shift as it relates to our sexual assault prevention efforts. For so long all of our energy has been directed at women, teaching them to be more “ladylike” and to not be “promiscuous” to not drink too much or to not wear a skirt. Newsflash: men don’t decide to become rapists because they spot a woman dressed like a video vixen or because a girl has been sexually assertive.”
But — and I’m trying to say this as delicately as possible — as the article continues, and lines such as “Consent can be withdrawn by the words “no “or “stop” and in many states, a woman doesn’t have to say no at all. Consumption of alcohol can prevent a woman from being able to legally offer consent” begin to seep in, the tone seems to shift from “men need to take full responsibility for their actions” to “men need to take full responsibility for their actions…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.” and I just can’t agree anymore.
I know that rapists are going to rape regardless of how women decide to dress, what (and how much) women decide to drink, where women decide to frequent, and what women decide to do. For rapists, all a woman needs to do to “ask for it” is be born.
But, why can’t both genders be educated on how to act responsibility around each other? What’s stopping us from steadfastly instilling “No always means no!” in the minds of all men and boys and educating women how not to put themselves in certain situations? Of course men shouldn’t attempt to have sex with a woman who’s too drunk to say no, but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date? Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.
It seems as if the considerable push back again victim-blaming has pushed all the way past prudence and levelheadedness, making anyone who suggests that “women can actually be taught how to behave too” insensitive or a “rape enabler.” And, while the sentiment in Maxwell’s article suggests that victim-blaming is dangerous, I think it’s even more dangerous to neglect to remind young women that, while it’s never their fault if they happen to get sexually assaulted, they shouldn’t thumb their noses to common sense either.
—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)
***11:07 edit***
(I left this as a comment below, but I wanted to attach it to the end of the entry as well.)
So, although I realized while writing this that it may be a touchy subject, I admittedly underestimated exactly how potentially explosive it was going to be. I read some of these responses late last night and early this morning, and I’m genuinely shocked at the level of anger and hurt this entry has caused. I really did not expect this to happen. And while I don’t apologize for expressing my viewpoint, but I do apologize about being so flippant and not being more careful to articulate exactly what I meant to convey. Considering the subject matter, leaving lighthearted footnotes and links to my appearance in Essence at the end of the entry was a very bad idea.
Anyway, as far as the actual article and responses, my intent wasn’t to imply that any victim of rape should be held “accountable” for what happened to them. I also realize that the majority of rapes are done by people who know their victims — boyfriends, co-workers, friends, dates, etc — making it almost impossible to defend against, and in no way did I want to spread the message that staying sober and out of shady situations is all a woman has to do to avoid being raped.
All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.
I’m aware that all the education and conversation in the world about learning how to protect yourself and stay out of harms way and properly vetting men isn’t going to prevent men from raping women. A woman can do all of that and still get sexually assaulted. I’m also aware that the onus of responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of the rapist, and no where else.
But, my whole point is that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex, and I don’t see how saying that suggests that I think women should be held responsible for their own rapes. Perhaps I’m being too obtuse, tone deaf, or insensitive, but I just don’t see the connection between “everyone should be educated and learn how to take responsibility for their actions” and “rape is the woman’s fault”
You know, before logging on and leaving this comment, I called up a friend to ask her to read the post and let me know if people were being way too sensitive or if I was crazy in thinking “what the hell is everyone so upset about?”
Her (paraphrased) reply:
“Yeah, I think you should have left this topic alone. Any time a man writes about rape and even puts women and accountability in the same sentence, you’re going to anger people and come off as either completely tone deaf or dangerously insensitive, even if you don’t actually say or feel that women need to be held accountable for what happens to them. Maybe you could have worded your feelings better, but there’s really nothing you could have said besides “rape is wrong. the end” that would have made much of a difference.”
I think she’s right.
WOW. Lifting heavy today are we?
Right? Lol.
For the men who don’t quite ‘get’ the ire, I present:
http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-10-18/10-top-tips-to-end-rape/
It’s simple, really. Don’t rape. Just don’t do it. Quit pointing the finger, passive aggressively pointing out that women get to ‘get away with everything’, and don’t. effin. do it.
The vast majority of men don’t rape, never have, never will, and would stop it if they knew it was happening at any given moment and was within their power to stop it.
The vast majority of men are not involved with rape, don’t benefit from rape in any way and are in fact very much harmed – both directly and indirectly – by the rapes that do occur.
The vast majority of white cops don’t racially profile, never have, never will, and would stop it if they knew it was happening at any given moment and was within their power to stop it.
The vast majority of police are not involved with racial profiling, don’t benefit from racial profiling in any way and are in fact very much harmed – both directly and indirectly – by the racial incidents that do occur.
Do you believe this? I feel the same way about men and rape. Extremely skeptical.
Why are your opinions of each the same? Are the police and racial profiling a 1:1 analogy with men and rape to you?
It’s not 1:1. Rape is much worse. But if I had to put it in terms you’d understand because you and others doggedly refuse to see the harm that rape causes it’s victims and how talking down and suggesting you know more about rape than a rape victim… is a insult.
Oh, ok. Just checking.
It is true. Rape is the worst thing a woman can go through. It takes away everything. It takes away your ability to trust others. It makes you terrified of men. It makes having a normal relationship absolutely impossible.
This is why it touches nerves to talk about things like that. Once you are raped, you are never the same and sometimes life as you know it is pretty much over.
Do rapists ever think about that? Or do they get off on destroying one’s very soul?
We know that the vast majority of rapes are:
- Committed by the same relatively narrow sliver of the population
- That they have multiple victims,
- That they avoid overt force, which is more likely to get them prosecuted,
- Ghat they choose victims who can be bullied and isolated and that alcohol is their tool of choice. ”
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/
What women want to know is
You never stated that it’s equally important for men to understand that they should not get so drunk that THEY’RE unable to control THEIR own behavior. You never admonished the men for getting so sloppy drunk that they cannot remember whether or not they did, in fact, rape someone.
Women can say over and over and over again that “Yes. Common sense is to not drink too much… and that will help you see that a situation is, in fact, becoming more dangerous than you would have been able to realize if they had “taken eight shots of Patron.” That is a true statement.
However.
We ALSO know that the vast majority of rapes are:
-Committed by the same relatively narrow sliver of the population who:
-Have multiple victims
-Avoid overt force, (which is more likely to get them prosecuted)
-Choose victims who can be bullied and isolated and
-Use alcohol as their tool of choice.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/
What women want to know is the answer to a very specific question:
Why don’t we, as a society, scrutinize why this “relatively narrow sliver of the population” CHOOSES to behave in this manner?
To women this seems, whenever we try to ask that specific question, the men who aren’t rapists instead ONLY want to discuss the rare (less than 2% of [reported] rapes) instances that are proven to be false reports. Because these men (who ARE NOT rapists) are scared to death of being accused/mistaken as one. Problem is… that the men who ARE rapists know this, and use it to camouflage themselves as that.
Why CAN’T we finally discus that!?
Wow, that is a dope link…
I completely agree that everyone needs to be educated on this subject. People will say how a woman should dress or act but that is not educating anyone how what rape is, how it effectives the victim or what happens to the rapists emotionally and if caught legally. I think more people should educate themselves as well as others on this very subject. Talking is always the first step but it should not end there. Young boys and men need to fully understand that their actions have consequences and it does not make them a man.
I think the issue is the context where your . . . followups to her article is being made.
In a discussion about rape and victims. . . not really good.
As a separate, stand alone, primer on appropriate behavior between men and women, yes.
Here’s an example of what I mean. 5 seconds after your gf is involved in a fender bender is the WRONG time to talk about always checking your blind spot. While important and perhaps something she needs to do more often and perhaps if she was more aware she could have taken some steps to attempt to avoid the accident, still not the best time.
This.
Yes, exactly! To use yet another analogy (At the risk of sounding like an annoying piggybacker), it’s like when a woman say “Why do you always leave the toilet seat up?” and he replies, “Well, why do you always leave cookie crumbs in the bed?!”
Everyone’s blaming and defensive and neither the toilet or the crumbs are addressed; just a list of grievances.
You both make valid points but when you make yours as a reply to what she said, it hurts both arguments. Well written post though.
Agreed. This is another example of “I’m not trying to blame the victim but [insert victim blaming statement here].”
Exactly! It’s all about timing. I mean, how can you talk about preventative measures after something already happened? Kinda cancels ish out don’t it?
There is information on how to protect yourself all over the place, in various venues. What DOES need to get better though, is men and women coming together during these particular information sessions. I think it would be much more effective than having separate ones…
There was just a clusterfork post that touched on nearly identical themes on
OKP yesterday.
Like I said there, this is a nearly impossible topic to discuss.
It’s hard to say what you’re saying without getting branded as a rape apologist.
The only people who can make the argument you’re making and live to tell the tale, reputation intact, are women with lots of credibility. That excludes ALL men, and most non-credible women (overtly conservative women, women hostile to feminism, Chrissy Jones, etc.)
This has become one of those topics I’ve just decided to keep my opinion to myself on and let the feminists now it if they want it.
Agreed. Not sure this convo can be had, unless men do not offer their opinions, and simply listen.
That can hardly be called a convo then, can it?
“Agreed. Not sure this convo can be had, unless men do not offer their opinions, and simply listen.”
Eh, I’ll certainly add “ask questions” to listening as well. Obviously, there are a lot of things men don’t know. So asking DETAILED questions and offering different scenarios would help a lot, IMO. We’ve already tried the “this is wrong, period.” method in society. With EVERY crime. Doesn’t quite work much…we need more nuanced education. That’s the way I feel…
Ok so I’m a girl, I’ve had an experience with rape and so have many of my friends. I believe we live in a rape culture. I believe that slut shaming and victim blaming are terrible, harmful, unnecessary things that perpetuate the rape culture and damage rape victims.
I just want to remind everyone here that men get raped too, I have a close friend that was and often I think people tend to forget that occurs because it is so much more common for the victim to be female.
I would also like to put in a good word for the author here. I don’t think he’s attempting to make a victim blaming statement or put the responsibility on the shoulders of the women. Yes the rapist is ALWAYS to blame in instances of rape. Yes most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows (a significant other, spouse, friend, family member). But that’s not to say there aren’t things that EVERYONE can do to decrease the likelihood of a rape situation. Arguing that a rapist will rape a women regardless of whether she is intoxicated or not is fine, but that’s not to say that she won’t be better aware of her surroundings and better able to defend herself if she IS preyed on if she skipped that last shot. There’s a difference between blaming the victim and putting full responsibility on them, and recommending that we take certain precautions to protect ourselves if we need to. Everyone has the responsibility to themselves to exercise some modicum of control. That doesn’t just apply to a potential rape situation either. If you are in an unfamiliar setting, male or female, it is always wise to exercise a little extra caution in whatever you may be doing. That’s common sense. I think what the author is trying to say is that not blaming the victim doesn’t mean that women can do whatever they want and expect to be safe. There are bad people in the world and there are things we can do to protect ourselves from them, be they minor or inaccurate. He has a point.
Finally, in the words of Emily Maguire
“Am I arguing that girls and women shouldn’t be held responsible for their behaviour? Not at all. If a woman drinks to excess, then falls over in the street, loses her wallet and vomits all over her shirt, she has only herself to blame. But rape is not a consequence of getting drunk. It’s a consequence of a man deciding to rape someone.”
We need to apply common sense. It may not stop anyone from getting raped or assaulted or violated, however it is the logical thing to do. Perhaps the author is incorrect to apply this to a rape situation in response to the previous article, however, he is NOT wrong in thinking that women and men alike need to be careful, exercise caution, and think before they act. It can never hurt.
I want to comment but I just can’t. Way too close to home.
This post is just wrong and really doesnt deserve a response. It lacks information such as the majority of sexual assaults and rapes occur in which the rapist is known (ie not a stranger) and also males can be victims of rape.
I reconsidered and posted down-thread. I get what Champ is trying to say, I just think as a man it doesn’t register with him. Honestly, I think that a man, even if his mother, sister, gf or wife was/has been raped ever gets it. Prevention is key, but when do we stop turning a blind eye to rape culture and start telling men how they can help stop this sick act of control and rage against women?
smh. i agree with both of you.
i agree.. and also to blame is PORN.. boys, men see this and all woman girl are fair game… Porn is the Devil.. !!!
Porn is NOT the devil. Please do not perpetuate that ignorance.
I don’t think it’s ignorant at all. Most porn depicts situations where a woman’s consent to sexual activity is ignored or called into question. Men and boys have greater access to porn than ever before in history, and often watch it to ‘learn’ about sex. If a male uses porn to instruct himself about sex with women, he is basically teaching himself to rape women. This is an important issue that needs to be confronted when discussing why men and boys rape and how to prevent it.
I think that is his point, Mo-VSS, and at the same time, considering how most rape is conducted by men the victim knows well, we should also educate our women that nobody is 100% safe for a woman to let her guard down. Like you, this is too close to home for me.
Ok, i have one question. If men are not allowed to speak on the subject, how do they set an example and direct their children on how to behave around the opposite sex. I don’t understand why men can’t speak their mind, especially when the guy is on our side. He is saying that we need to protect ourselves as well at men need to be more respectful. No one is getting off in this article. No i have not been rape however i was abused as a child. I get it.
Obviously this article is talkn bout date rape only, because i promise u the man dragging u into the bushes @ knifepoint or climbing thru your bedroom window cud care less what u drank, wore, or when u said “no”. Rape isnt about sex. Its about power. The rapist inflicts control over the victim thru a violent act. U’d have 2 b a pretty big pathetic loser 2 rape 4 sex. It comes from a waaay more sinister place than that. Thats y rapists are so dangerous & need 2 b put UNDER the jail. Ok im done.
Pretty much says it all..
Rape isnt about sex. Its about power.
Right to all of this.
Date rape can certainly feel like you did not know this person would turn into a demon and brutalize you.
i see what you’re saying Champ.
i’d add my 2 cents, but i think this is a touchy subject, and i probably should just chill.
i peep’d your article in that mag, keep doing your thing sir *salute*
I work in this industry – the long and the short is we teach folks how NOT to take advantage of each other. I don’t COMPLETELY disagree with you – HOWEVER, you’re talking about RISK REDUCTION (not getting too drunk, walking on lit streets, etc) vs. RAPE PREVENTION…the only person who can PREVENT a rape – is the rapist. THE END. The “don’t be vulnerable” lesson is shoved at most women since day one, but VERY RARELY do we hear “don’t fukk someone over just cause you can”….THAT is why there’s more article’s like your friends out there – and GOOD FOR HER
@Sharyon Culberson- You bring up some great points. You and The Anti-Cool have been the only two women to comment thus far that I think seem to actually understand what the Champ was trying to say and understand the difference between what he is focusing in on and what the others are saying. Risk reduction is a much more accurate description of what he and many of the men are referring to. I understand the points all the ladies are making and agree with 95% of them. There’s no way to stop a rapist from raping until he has been identified, just like a pedophile. The sad thing is that we can’t talk about the grey area of consent (that which the men in attendance can ACTUALLY control) that people perceive differently depending on gender, perception of life, closeness or distance from the situation and other case by case detail variations. I don’t know that anything productive can come from such a discussion since it seems like so many people are too furious about the subject and a society that can’t prevent it for any productive talks about where to draw lines to occur. We really would like to discuss how much/what type of consent is necessary, but we keep getting called insensitive manipulative heathens when we try. You and The-Anti-Cool have given me hope, but too many of the ladies posting have shown that they can’t put themselves in the shoes of a man (who makes a conscious effort to have a healthy sex life without taking advantage of any woman). So it doesn’t seem reasonable for me to comment on this anymore…still can’t get over the fact that some frustrated ignoramous upthread accused me of being a rapist just for pointing out the moving target that is first time sexual consent for a young man (think teens and early 20s) who’s just figuring out how courting, dating, and sexuality work in our society. I clearly stated that I don’t have this problem, but I can see how it could be confusing, and this jackass still insinuated that I may have raped someone before. To that I say f*ck you very much and good day ma’am.
And another thing, I didn’t even bring up rape fantasies (it didn’t even cross my mind), a female commenter did, but since she did that should force everyone to address the mixed messages men often get from women who are encouraged to play coy all the while encouraging us to be aggressive, read body language, and take control…but don’t have sex with us unless we practically snatch it out your pants and shove it in there….I can see how a teenage kid would make a mistake, and I DON’T consider him a rapist. But yeah, I’m done with this convo. Blessings to you all
“You bring up some great points. You and The Anti-Cool have been the only two Blacks to comment thus far that I think seem to actually understand what the Captain Obvious was trying to say and understand the difference between what he is focusing in on and what the others are saying. Risk reduction is a much more accurate description of what he and many of the Cop-sympathizers are referring to. I understand the points all the Blacks are making and agree with 95% of them. There’s no way to stop a racist cop from racial profiling until he has been identified, just like a pedophile. The sad thing is that we can’t talk about the grey area of police conduct in stopping Black men dis-proportionally just to scare ‘em a little or put them in their place (which cops can actually control) that people perceive differently depending on race, occupation, closeness or distance from the situation and other case by case detail variations. I don’t know that anything productive can come from such a discussion since it seems like so many people are too furious about the subject and a society that can’t prevent it for any productive talks about where to draw lines to occur. We really would like to discuss how much/what type of law enforcement is necessary, but we keep getting called insensitive manipulative heathens when we try. You and The-Anti-Cool have given me hope, but too many of the Blacks posting have shown that they can’t put themselves in the shoes of a cop (who makes a conscious effort to do their job without taking advantage of any blacks walking around town by themselves). So it doesn’t seem reasonable for me to comment on this anymore…still can’t get over the fact that some frustrated ignoramous upthread accused me of being a COP just for pointing out that rookie cops can make mistakes (think: new to the force, eager to please and has quotas) who’s just figuring out how policing and walking the beat works. I clearly stated that I don’t have this problem, but I can see how it could be confusing, and this jackass still insinuated that I may have turned snitched before. To that I say f*ck you very much and good day NINJA.
And another thing, I didn’t even bring up entrapment (it didn’t even cross my mind), a Black commenter did, but since he did that should force everyone to address the mixed messages police often get from Blacks who are encouraged to be thugs and tough guys the while expecting we won’t just sit there and not take control…but don’t have mess with us and not expect to get knocked down a peg….I can see how a rookie cop would make a mistake, and I DON’T consider him a racist. But yeah, I’m done with this convo. Blessings to you all.”
This.
Thank you, SweetSass, for putting that statement in perspective!
reading late, but thanks for the language clarity and education…risk reduction (which women should know and live by) v. rape prevention (which women have no control over) is an important distinction.
+1 to all of what you said, and thanks for setting the record straight.
YOOOO!!!
I can’t even get pass the picture! Lmao!
I know. I’m sure y’all are like, “What in thee phuck is she talking about?” but there’s a story behind that image for me and as I was typing the URL in to come over here, I was thinking about the someone that has something to do with the story behind that pic and…. yeah. My bad.
I’ll return to comment after I read the post now.
You’re point is well taken. However, most women are raped by people they know. Most women are raped in the daylight. Almost all rapes are at least partially planned. I say all of this to reinforce what rape is really about: control. And the victim, has absolutely no control. To preach to future victims (ie- women) about what they can do to prevent getting raped is ineffective, not to mention offensive. Men (the usual offenders) usurp the power women have. THAT is why there needs to be a anti-rape campaign targeting women, they are the ones with the control.
It can’t be said enough.
“To preach to future victims (ie- women) about what they can do to prevent getting raped is ineffective”
I agree. Also its the type of teaching women receive that I find ineffective. They continue to tell women not to drink too much, not to wear slutty clothes, not to be promiscuous and so on and this teaching is ineffective. What they should be saying is to not leave windows open while sleeping at home, possibly wear an attack alarm when out or jogging, have pepper spray on on hand, never leave your drink unattended or something along those lines. None of these tips matter at all if the person who rapes you is someone you know (which is usually the case). Also why is it the men are never held accountable in these situations. I’ve heard people ask what the female was doing to get raped….and that is outrageous. Why are men not solely held accountable in these type of situations. If you raped somebody it is 100% your fault, I don’t care what a woman wore, how much she drunk, how late it was etc.
Another thing I took from Champs post is “rapist are going to be rapist” (at least until they are caught that is) so do what you can to protect yourself. Although I understand that, the problem is in many rape cases there is nothing preventative women can do…..common sense or being cautious won’t keep most rapes from happening.
I agree that a lot of times there isn’t anything women can do, not even use common sense, but again, reminding us of that is keeping us alert. There are a lot of women who get raped by men they have known for some time and when you speak to them they say “I had no idea he would be capable of doing this.” To me, that’s wrong. Thinking that a man is capable of doing that won’t stop rape, but we really can’t have that false sense of security and think “he would never do that to me.” We just can’t.
Right! These tips kind of remind me of when the sniper was taking people out in the DC area and law enforcement was telling people to walk zig zag to their cars. Now you’re putting the responsibility in the wrong place. Focus on finding the sniper versus telling victims how not to get sniped! (I wonder how effective that ziz zag method was anyway.)
It was the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard because all a Sniper would have to do is lead you a bit and still pick you off. It did make for some amusing moments though.
When I heard the zig zag pattern back in the day I thought John McCain was the sniper because he’s the only person who can’t move his arms.
Truth! It’s how I’m getting most of my kills as I learn how to play Call of Duty…
Many women and teenage girls are bombarded with that information from a VERY early age. Never leave your drink alone. Never be unaware of your surroundings. I find it more messed up that we live in a culture that not only implicitly approves of date rape potential situations (think: get her drunk so she’ll sleep with you punchlines) but also where we’ll see some girl stumbling around and not getting her help because *insert random judgment about responsibility or sloppiness*. It seems like Maxwell is addressing rape culture more than taking all the blame away from men–it’s more addressing the fact that “I have to make sure I don’t get raped” is a CONSTANT thing women have to watch out for, whereas many men never do–if a man and a woman both want to get blackout drunk, one shouldn’t have to worry about bein preyed on while the other can just let loose. Again, it’s more the fact that we have to worry about such things in such a different light than the issue of having to do them or being educated about it. It seems like most rape edu is targeted at women in the first place. And while it’s certainly clear that you know it’s wrong, this is the type of thinking (again, along with making date rape situations “funny” in media) that leads to guys either not knowing better (happens, as date rape is more murky than many other rape scenarios) or not caring. We’re in a society where seeing a woman mugged is something to call the cops for, but this type of violence is just an excuse to find gray area. It needs to stop, completely.
I think all you ladies are making some good points. I notice that every time this subject comes up women often accuse people of putting too much emphasis on what the victim could have done and that’s problematic. I didn’t understand why they interpreted it this way at first, but now I at least get how that would offend and annoy someone who is in a situation that the other person will never be able to relate to.
My only contribution to this discussion that would even resemble devil’s advocate is that the whole theory of “you should never have sex with a girl that’s under the influence of alcohol” (I’ve heard that in some places its illegal and I’ve heard ppl say they agree with this ridiculous rule). That my friends is bullsh*t. We all know that most adult social activities involve alcohol and that trying to stop a grown woman from drinking so that you can legally sleep with her is a terrible and unrealistic idea. Situations get complex, so I see where the lines get blurred sometimes, and in situations where the girl likes the guy but may not be ready to take it there yet…that’s the only time where I think consent could get blurred and a guy who’s otherwise reasonable could actually mistake a no for a maybe (and keep it real very rarely do we get a direct yes, as we often have to convert skepticism to horniness or we’ll never get laid). That’s where I can’t speak on the topic unless I were to know all the details of a situation…very complicated and sensitive subject indeed…
“that’s the only time where I think consent could get blurred and a guy who’s otherwise reasonable could actually mistake a no for a maybe (and keep it real very rarely do we get a direct yes, as we often have to convert skepticism to horniness or we’ll never get laid). ”
anytime consent can be blurred..most likely, isn’t consent. that’s the way it is.
Exactly
” anytime consent can be blurred..most likely, isn’t consent. that’s the way it is. ”
Yep.
“anytime consent can be blurred..most likely, isn’t consent. that’s the way it is.”
Baddabing.
This is exactly why men need to be the target if rape prevention campaugns though too. I believe the most important advice I could give my brother when he left for college was if she has been drinking, save that experience for a sober day. I know it doesn’t sound realistic, but the fact us it protects him too.
I had a longer post but I think it got lost. The short of it was please reread that article. Our VSB need to know what rape is and how to prevent it. Women get told all the time what to do but when those suggestions don’t save you…you blame yourself. Why? Because everyone said you’d be protected if only you did x y and z.
Oh the typos, it is too late for my pressure to be this high.
“and keep it real very rarely do we get a direct yes, as we often have to convert skepticism to horniness or we’ll never get laid”
wow.
Women play these games all of the time. But men are supposed to read minds and subtle signs and know better than her what she really wants even when all her actions say something else.
Here is a huge part of the issue: we are comparing the “injustice” of a man being “teased” or not getting sex to that of a woman being raped. I’ll probably post more about this after work tomorrow, but bottom line is, constant reinforcement saying that it’s okay for men to act like brats when they feel “teased” or feel like a woman doesn’t know what she wants are damaging and contribute to rape culture. It can be douchey–I’ll give you that. But unless you assume most women have an unshared rape fantasy that they randomly want to act out without talking about it prior (which, though I probably don’t need to say it, is a STUPID assumption) I can’t see it being THAT unclear. Ever. Not to the point where it’d ever seem reasonable to me to just say eff it and initiate sex anyway.
I don’t think the issue is teasing as much as unambiguous consent. Let’s face it. Communication between people can get odd. When it comes to sexual relations, the opportunities for misunderstanding are high. My response? Unless she makes affirmative action towards a sexual act (e.g. moving to put her mouth on it or pulling me inside her), I ask, period. If you think that isn’t sexy, you must not want me, and you need cab fare and directions.
Just because a woman can be on some chickenhead mess doesn’t mean you have to put yourself in that spot fellas. I’d rather work it out with a Cherokee D’A$$ flick than with a district attorney.
“I’d rather work it out with a Cherokee D’A$$ flick than with a district attorney.”
Wise words. This should go on the campaign marketing materials.
” we are comparing the “injustice” of a man being “teased” or not getting sex to that of a woman being raped.”
THIS! It seems like this is the argument for why its understandable for why a guy may take it too far. So, horniness and and dealing with the physical and emotional scars of rape are the same.
Here’s a helpful hint: stop trying to mind-read. Just ask straight up. If the woman you’re with doesn’t like that, and prefers to play mind games, then WHY THE PHUCK are you trying to sleep with her anyway?
If a woman is not ready to have sex with you yet… WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO DECIDE OTHERWISE?
Before my boyfriend (now husband) and I started s*xing, if I even whispered the word no, he would stop touching me, stop kissing on me, and get up. There was no gray area and it made me respect him even more. Nothing could be misconstrued. His words “You said no, so I stopped”. PERIOD
Your comment re racial profiling would go like this?:
I think all you Blacks are making some good points. I notice that every time this subject comes up Blacks often accuse people of putting too much emphasis on what the victim of police brutality could have done and that’s problematic. I didn’t understand why they interpreted it this way at first, but now I at least get how that would offend and annoy someone who is in a situation that a white person will never be able to relate to.
My only contribution to this discussion that would even resemble devil’s advocate is that the whole theory of “you should never racially profile, not even in the ghetto” (I’ve heard that in some places its illegal and I’ve heard ppl say they agree with this ridiculous rule). That my friends is bullsh*t. We all know that most ghetto have drug and gang violence and that trying to clean up the neighborhoods overnight or suggest moving back to Africa are terrible and unrealistic ideas. Situations get complex, so I see where the lines get blurred sometimes, and in situations where the cops are out and prowling and see shady looking Black dudes hanging around in groups…that’s the only time where I think the correct form of action could get blurred and a cop who’s otherwise reasonable could actually mistake a regular Black dude just minding his business for a gangbanger (and keep it real, it is hard to tell sometimes ). That’s where I can’t speak on the topic unless I were to know all the details of a situation…very complicated and sensitive subject indeed…
Situations get complex, so I see where the lines get blurred sometimes, and in situations where the girl likes the guy but may not be ready to take it there yet…that’s the only time where I think consent could get blurred and a guy who’s otherwise reasonable could actually mistake a no for a maybe (and keep it real very rarely do we get a direct yes, as we often have to convert skepticism to horniness or we’ll never get laid).
BAM! That’s where the mistake is made…you’re so busy trying to get laid you CHOOSE not to stop and think…”maybe I shouldn’t do this”. You could avoid any grey areas or blurred lines by simply walking away but noooo you MUST get laid! I think you’re still missing the point Mr. Devil’s Advocate. Let’s teach our boys and young men about acting responsibly FIRST & busting a nut second, not the other way around!
“and keep it real very rarely do we get a direct yes, as we often have to convert skepticism to horniness or we’ll never get laid”
I wish men would stop doing this. Sounds to me like you’re trying to be mind reader AND trick/convince a girl to have sex with you. You want to have sex with her but instead of waiting for her to be ready you try to convince her that she’s ready. Then add alcohol to the mix! How can you even tell if consent was even given in a situation like that??? I think this is the whole reason we have the “grey area of consent” so many men speak about.
Err…Ok.
I actually read the article and didn’t really get the whole “women have carte blance to behave recklessly” thing. More like a suggestion of targeting young men in the anti-rape ads, since the present tactics (telling women to be more careful) don’t seem to be effective. And then there’s the fact that a large percent of women are raped by someone they know, I’m not sure where the 50-11 shots of patron come in, but I’m sure that’s a common culprit.
(-_-)
In fact unless I’m not abreast on all my rape-debate essays, I can’t recall anyone ever insinuating or supporting women abandoning common sense. That would be delusional, and quite frankly the claim is inaccurate. To believe that, I’d have to pretend to not notice all the women’s defense classes, and news alerts teaching me to be aware of my surroundings, don’t jog with headphones, and to always have my keys out when I’m at my front door, every time some sick nut decides to attack women on the street.The thing is women have always been taught the very same sentiments you claim is becoming taboo. The real question is what gave you the impression that your sentiments are breaking news?
I don’t know if you’ve ever had a conversation with a rape victim. Reading this I’m going to assume you haven’t, though it’s obvious you took pains to tread as carefully as possible. But the majority of them spend years blaming themselves, going over every step in their heads, trying to figure out what they could’ve done differently to have prevented their assaults from ever happening. Shockingly their experiences don’t always involve inebriation, and reckless abandon, THAT is what makes it all the more frightening, when you realize how little control you have over the chances of being raped. Sometimes all it takes is coming into contact with the wrong person. And beyond warning women to be cautious, I loathe any attempt at aiding a victim’s already instantaneous self-debilitating habit of self-blame. They got that covered.
Thank you for this.
Your Welcome. I wanted to pepper this response with so many more expletives. Lord knows I did.
Completely agree with you..its like he read the article and just concluded with what he assumed not what Zerlina Maxwell’s article really said…i know they call it defilement but a girl of four raped by a 12 year old boy..wonder how Champ would like to pin that on the little girls reckless abandon
Right making up some sensational scenario of getting inebriated around men didn’t really address her referencing the women who are raped by their husbands boyfriends, and dates.
@Misty Knight- I get where you’re coming from. I do believe you (without even looking at the stats, just judging from intuition and women I’ve talked to) that most rape victims did nothing to make the rape any more likely. However, when you talk about women getting raped by their husbands and boyfriends that kind of points to a bigger problem (or at least a problem that’s as big as victim blaming). How the hell do we stop it or even know who’s telling the truth when it comes to those situations? I mean, while the fact that she has at least been a willing participant at some point does not mean he is entitled to her body whenever he wants it, it still creates a real mess. Because what happens when a chick wants to do it then changes her mind after it begins? What happens when he’s had a history of showing more honesty and integrity than her? Who do we believe then? What happens when she feels betrayed that he told someone she didn’t want to know so she claims it was rape? What happens when there’s no camera present and a chick says she was gang raped like the chick at Cornell or whatever college that was a few years ago? I even heard someone say that anytime more than one dude has sex with a girl (running a train) it’s rape. I respectfully disagree with that assertion. Rape is virtually ALWAYS the man’s fault. I won’t dispute that. But not everything that is labeled rape is created equal and every accusation isn’t genuine. I think most are genuine (and even more happen that don’t get reported at all sadly), but the worst label a man could possible have (other than child molester) is rapist, so if a guy did not CLEARLY commit rape it’s hard for me to be so quick to deem a person guilty, cause once I feel that way I can’t change my level of disgust for that individual.
If a “chick” changes her mind after it begins it stops. Why does there need to be a camera? Why does she need to always have been honest her entire life? Why can’t she say no to her husband or boyfriend? Ever heard of an abusive relationship? Does the man need to be a serial rapist, lurking in allies to be at fault? Does the woman have to be an upstanding citizen, walking around in broad daylight, wearing completely asexual attire to be void of blame. This way of thinking is so dangerous and disturbing I can’t even tell you.
I’m sorry I checked out after reading “victim blaming” was as big a problem
as false claims of rape from wives, girlfriends, and so’s of their assailants.. I had to collect myself. I’m better now. I can tell you that from my experience, it takes a lot for a wife to even file charges on her own husband or boyfriend for rape, because there was a history of consent, and just how difficult it is to prove that THIS time, she said “no”, and he forcibly had intercourse with her. As opposed to all the other times she just “took one for the team”.
So the fact that this is somehow some rampant dubious societal plague baffles me, considering how rarely wives and girlfriends of assailants even file such claims.
If a woman changes her mind after it begins, why would he want to continue?How is it so hard whether or not to continue to have sex with a crying, pleading woman, or one stiff and unresponsive with mental detachment?
How in the hell is someone going to establish who had more integrity than the other? How in the hell does the Cornell case factor in any of this? as far as these categories and subcategories of “rape” you speak of…I can’t understand. For me there are two types of claims. False Ones. and True ones. I can never dispute false claims are made, and that was never mentioned However whether it was done by a boyfriend, husband, or date makes no difference, and its sad that these variables have such an effect on your perspective.
What is so hard about this?
If she changes her mind after it begins… STOP.
If you keep going… guess what… you are a rapist.
You are not entitle to an orgasm. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED.
This. No matter what you’ve done or how nice you’ve been, no one OWES you their person.
I will never understand why do so many men think they are entitled??? Sex is not something anyone OWES you!!!
You sound like someone who needs more education about rape. And that doesn’t surprise me. That’s all I have to say about that. (no Forrest Gump)
“But not everything that is labeled rape is created equal and every accusation isn’t genuine”
There are levels of rape? Well I’ll be damned. To be honest reading your posts makes me wonder how many rapes you’ve “unknowingly” committed.
What he means to say is… There are victims he sympathizes with (pure, virginal) and those he doesn’t (has vices, is human.)
What if you were talking this callously about racial profiling?
@Misty Knight- I get where you’re coming from. I do believe you (without even looking at the stats, just judging from intuition and Ninjas I’ve talked to) that most police brutality victims did nothing to make the beating any more likely. However, when you talk about Brothas getting beating by Black and Latino cops too that kind of points to a bigger problem (or at least a problem that’s as big as White Cop on Black person crime). How the hell do we stop it or even know who’s telling the truth when it comes to those situations? I mean, while the fact that the Black guy probably might have a criminal record at some point does not mean cops are entitled to stop and frisk him whenever they please, it still creates a real mess. Because what happens when a Brotha wants to dress like a gangsta and wear flashy ghetto bling then STILL wants to be left alone by the cops? What happens when he actually does have a criminal history? What if its two white cops and one black guy and no witnesses? Who do we believe then? What happens when the Brotha is mouthy and instigating a fight and later wants to claim police brutality when the cops shut him up? What happens when there’s no camera present and he claims to be beaten like that Rodney King guy in LA? I even heard someone say that anytime more than one cop arrests a Brotha and keeps him in a jail cell overnight without charging him (fingerprints and strip searches him too) it’s a violation of his civil rights. I respectfully disagree with that assertion. Racial profiling is virtually ALWAYS the cops’s fault. I won’t dispute that. But not everything that is labeled racial profiling is created equal and every accusation isn’t genuine. I think most are genuine (and even more happen that don’t get rectified at all sadly), but the worst label a cop could possible have (other than doughnut eating pig) is racist, so if a cop did not CLEARLY commit an act of racial profiling or police brutality it’s hard for me to be so quick to deem him guilty, cause once I feel that way I can’t change my level of disgust for that individual.
Wow, seriously, you have trouble with the idea that if a woman changes her mind about sex DURING sex, the obvious thing to do is STOP?
You are starting to sound like a man who is feeling defensive and worried because he himself may have raped someone.
I’m sorry, but that’s just how you come across.
Rape is ALWAYS the fault of the rapist. Full stop. There is no “virtually”. I suppose you don’t realize that these “how to avoid rape” tips are used by rapists to design their rapes so that if they do get accused and brought to trial, there’s very little chance they’ll be convicted, precisely because juries have these lists of things women ‘should’ have done in their minds, and if she didn’t, then she wasn’t actually raped because obviously on some level she wanted it.
You are revealing yourself in these comments to be part of the problem. Please stop it.
This was so eloquently put. Thank you
I had a long reply typed out. I was fully prepared to outline a whole lot of important points and then throw in a few cuss words for good measure. Thanks to you I don’t have to. I hope Champ reads this. I understand his sentiment, I really do but, like you said, as a man he just can’t and will probably never understand
I wholeheartedly agree. thank you.
Thank you for this!! I 100000000% agree with every word you typed.
I offer my thanks as well.
Many don’t realize that often it is the very people you trust who become your assailants. Sometimes the person whose job is to protect you is the one who violates you. The loss of control, the loss of power, and the loss of security are hard to regain. If you’ve never experienced it I don’t expect you to understand it. But to tell a woman “All you have to do is (insert tactics here) and no one will get at you,” is both a lie and an insult.
Cosign… It’s an absolute lie to say so and so thing will prevent you from being raped… Unbelievable that Champ of all people would say something this foul. I’m shocked.
+10000
Round of applause. (not the song; an actual round of applause.)
” Sometimes all it takes is coming into contact with the wrong person. ”
THANK YOU Misty.
And to put it into perspective, this ALSO applies to murderers, serial killers.
Also the advice given is based on the assumption that women (and men like Champ) can IDENTIFY a rapist immediately.
Sometimes you cannot until it is too late.
“But the majority of them spend years blaming themselves, going over every step in their heads, trying to figure out what they could’ve done differently to have prevented their assaults from ever happening.”
Yes! For a long time all you think is “I could have prevented this.” I’m past that point. I just say “stupid of me to think it could never happen to me” but I certainly don’t say “well, I should have not offered to tutor him at my house. No wonder it almost happened!” No. Just like women can exercise restraint, so can men.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you.
AGREED….. Wow, this article made me sad.
I usually really enjoy Champ’s honesty and iron clad defense of his beliefs… Insensitive much? I’m bothered that you even feel the inclination to solicit a second opinion on the topic! But I’m so glad you did! I’ve been reading this blog for a while now and found it so refreshing to read men’s unfiltered, unedited opinions on every topic from a to z… The commentary is intelligent, funny, thought provoking, and truly highlights the differences in the way men and women actually think – which in my mind is a WIN/WIN. We are yin and yang but together are… one. I echo the sentiment that women far too many times eagerly bash men’s opinions without ever considering or respecting their unique, valid and distinct point of view… But wow… what just happened here? I mean, the term “common sense” and “rape” used in the title alone is disgusting and disappointing!
I’ll tell you something you already know — Men will NEVER understand the complexity that is a woman’s sexuality, let alone her physiology in tandem with her reproductive system, and how it is interpreted and digested by not only the world but her own psyche. Couple that with the messages we face each and every day as females… it’s CRAZY. I know some women seem to throw their sexuality around like nothing and give their bodies away like nothing, and it really confuses men, but trust me, the side-effects are MAJOR and extensive and long standing. LEARN ABOUT IT before you speak. I was molested as a child and also experienced date rape. I see no difference in men who snatch women in alleys, men who molest young family members, and men who use force to have intercourse with women who are under the influence, or resist “at first”, or change their minds moments before penetration. THEY ARE ALL SCUMB. PERIOD. I know some stand up guys and I have heard many a story (laced with explitives) about having to STOP a yard from the in-zone. BUT THEY DID IT. I need men to STOP defending men who can’t control themselves. I fear men who even indirectly defend this brutish behavior!
As a victim, I wish men would STFU about rape and molestation. If it’s never happened to you don’t dare give advice about it, especially how to “prevent it”. We are not talking about forest fires here, RAPE is scarring men and women for LIFE every 30 – 90 seconds worlwide. It is very, very, very hurtful that some men still act like dummies about this subject. It is SO very dangerous to even imply a shift in blame, even under the protective cloak of sincere concern and caution that we as women so appreciate 99% of the time, but speaking on RAPE… just don’t… SMH.
This is a touchy subject but I have to agree with you here, Champ. Both genders need to be educated on the topic. Not just to avoid getting sexually assaulted but for other situations that can/may arise when overdoing it with the drinks, I often speak to my younger family members (boys & girls) about this very thing. You can’t always depend on others to do the right thing or do right by you so, it’s important that you’re always conscious and alert to be able to take care of self.
Imagine if a white person was to offer tips on how to avoid discrimination or racism. “Hey black people if you don’t want to deal with racism, don’t go to the deep South, avoid bars that play country music, have some common sense and go to an HBCU!”, we’d all be offended. Similarly, women are offended when men attempt to offer tips on how to avoid rape.
Sure, you can do your best to avoid both racism and rape, but at the end of the day, those stinking problems have a way of finding the victims they want, and Champ’s “I will never know what this feels like because I’m a man, but I got some advice” perspective isn’t welcome.
So because preventative measures are not 100% guaranteed, we shouldn’t advise them?
not saying that you shouldn’t advise them, but bringing them up on the back end is (IMO) tasteless, tacky, and insulting. And sometimes, no matter how “genuine” you appear to be, there is a little strain of accusation in the words. “Well, if you weren’t out drinking…” “Maybe if you didn’t wear that shirt…” “Why were you walking by yourself at that time of night?” A lot of what has to do with nothing. It’s been posted before and I’ll post it again. Rape has naught to do with how you dress, what you drink, and where you go. It’s about power. It’s about conquering. It’s about supremecy. And it’s time that people stop “blaming the victim” because the victim doesn’t always “ask for it” like most people tend to think.
Not drinking or dressing a certain way is not a preventative measure. I know from my own life that even when you do all the right things you can still get raped or sexually assaulted.
Like Hawaii, I agree with Champ’s overall message about educating both genders on this subject matter. However, I don’t think we need to go over preventative measures because that’s all women hear and yet sexual assaults are still prevalent. In terms of what to tell women, maybe we should actually define what sexual assault and rape is. I know a lot of girls who don’t know what they are. They say, “I didn’t want to, and I did say no, but because I didn’t do anything else to stop him, I just did it, so I guess it’s not rape.” And lots of men think this way as well. “Well she said no but she didn’t stop me so she wanted it.”
Interesting article I see your point…an I also understand how so are taking offense to the post as well… I’m indifferent
The 16 year old girl who is just 5’2″ is walking home from the store. It’s cold outside and she’s “dress appropriate” for the weather. She lives in a small town where things such as rapes, murders (outside of drug related issues) and crime in general is low. She thinks nothing of walking to and from the store at 5:30pm, even though in the winter time 5:30pm means it’s dark or close to it.
She’s almost home. She gets hit from behind, dragged away from anyone’s line of sight and is brutally raped. She’s never had sex before. She never thought her power of consent would be so forcefully taken away. She wasn’t drunk. She wasn’t scantily clad. She wasn’t anything but following her normal routine, walking home and being 16 years old.
She thought she’d tell her best friends about her first time. She thought that they’d share and laugh and she’d have experienced a moment that she could recall with whatever feelings that moment evoked. Instead, her recounting of her first time was frightfully, with blood-stained tears, standing in tattered clothes to her mother and father, and next to a detective charged with finding the bastard that raped her.
How, Damon, should she have prevented that? And before anyone gets all “that’s dramatic, let me be clear. That story isn’t false, made-up, dramatized or concocted. It’s something that happened. What should I tell this girl about how she should have stopped that? Since we’re all “let’s educate everyone,” let’s talk about what measures she should have taken. Could she have had someone walking with her? Sure. However, it was 5:30pm in her hometown and she was doing what she’d always done. We’ve all be on auto-pilot. It’s common and as normal as breathing.
So what’s the remedy of prevention for that?
Don’t expect an answer, or at least an adequate one. If we are to reference this mind blowing display of sensitivity he’s not referring to the victims you’ve described, just those dumb drunk ho3s who be doin Patron shots with big men.
Why can’t I do a shot of Patron, too, damn it?! How is it reasonable to blame the drunk ho3s for being raped? Am I to do shots only in the privacy of my 7th floor apt? And if some dude scales the walls, climbs the fire escape or busts my door open and rapes me, is it my fault?
Does he get to blame it on the Alcohol? Is he within his rights to have me because as Trey Songz said the liquor “just makes it easier”?! <<— Rape Culture.
What you described is what rape laws were designed for in the first place. That situation is a horrible crime as with most assults. There is no one size fits all solution to the problem. All the prep in the world would not stop that situation from happening. The problem comes from “date” rape and “spousal” rape where the line are not as clear cut. These situations have diluted the process from being effective because it turn into he said she said. Who do you believe when a woman has sex then says she was raped? How many times has that been done?
I dont know a man who wouldn’t call this rape or argue she should have prevented it from happening. She could not have. The issue with this discourse is the sensitivity around intelligent people to nitpick every verb, noun, and adjective used. The issue with prevention comes in less clear cut situations. Let’s be clear, rape is still rape even if a woman has downed a bottle of Peach Ciroc at the club. Especially when despite being inebriated she still says no, refuses, resitst, etc. Can we agree the water gets murkier when this same woman consents or “goes along” with sex, but later states she did not consent? I dont know the percentages so I wont pretend to know how many cases actually refelct this or similar scenarios, but I think this is where the confusion or disconnect comes into play. Men often discuss the latter because the situation you describe above is so clear we wont even dispute that. Even if the less clear set of circumstances only constitutes a small percentage of cases, men are probably more interested in discussing the latter because we’re all in agreement about scenarios like the one you present above.
This is a touchy subject and doesnt help that educated folks often like to cherry pick one or two statements out of a discourse, I’m guilty of it too. I’ve read a lot of comments on here where it seems like Champ’s point is being entirely missed. I understood him to be saying essentially, we need to educate and hold men accountable while also addressing prevention with women. Not sure how he “doesnt get it.”
It seems like we are all reading different articles. Where please and tell me where in Champ’s post did he even elude to the “grey area of consent”? I am so serious, perhaps I’m not reading between the lines , because when I read:
Of course men shouldn’t attempt to have sex with a woman who’s too drunk to say no, but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date? Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.
I don’t get that. What I see is a sorry display of Captain Obviousness, and a totally inadequate caveat for even a chance of a productive discussion of rape, consent, and personal responsibility. Thats not nitpicking that’s just a poor example.
The mind-infuriating fact you and other’s with your sentiments don’t seem to get, is that his suggestion is not breaking news. I heed and listen to every rape prevention tactic that is CONSTANTLY streamed to women. If someone walks to closely behind me, I stop to tie my shoes, if ever to be assaulted again, I know statistically if I holler “I’m pregnant” it might lessen the chances of me being assaulted, or so I’m told. Where I don’t understand is how the aforementioned article, or any woman on here, advocates “recklessness”. Not even that offensive definition of “recklessness” Champ described. I also find it absurd that people think rape victims can yet again discuss how they could have “prevented rape” w/o reacting personally. It seems like some of you don’t realize how much a victim replays her assault, trying to figure out where she went wrong, and vowing never to do it again. Nor do you acknowledge the naive trusting young lady that the majority of us started off as. How are men victimized and oppressed by women and rape victims articulating their frustrations? I don’t think what your seeing is a refusal to cooperate in a discussion, but a natural reaction to feeling like you, and your experience is not being heard, or understood.
You do realize noone said any point was late breaking news. In fact, I don’t think anyone has disagreed with the need to hold men to task or denounce a rape culture. If they have, I havent read it. The more I read the comments the more I feel like we’re all saying 95% the same shit and misconstruing the other 5% of the other side, me included. I’m really starting to agree with whomever said men should just avoid participating in this conversation.
Sorry but your response just reads like an unwillingness to listen. First I thought you had the impression Champ’s post was about the grey area of consent. I calmly stated that I never saw him mention it, and then pointed out in fact his point was that the fear of victim blaming obstructs teaching women to employ common sense. I, as many of others have refuted that, because it simply is not the reality we live in. For some reason, those statements seem to go ignored repeatedly, and we fail to properly address the victims that
A) have taken precautions
B) Might have fell victim to a predator due to a lapse in judgement.
-What do you say to the victim who was vigilant?
-How exactly do you have a “constructive” conversation with the victim that maybe wasn’t?
My point is what Champ is saying is what the victims from Column B torture themselves with every day after their assault. I know because i did it. So I find his assertions redundant.
I made a comparison to Champ’s own admission that even with all the education about the perils of safe sex, he himself still participates in it, and I think its an apt comparison. We have had years of teaching women “common sense” methods, and yet like unprotected sex, it has yet to effectively prevent it from happening. Obviously rape is not as willful as having unprotected sex, but the comparison is just to display how a assuming women don’t know any better, or somehow preventative self-preserving methods are unheard of.
So why not explore other options ? How often do we really discuss men’s perceptions of consent? I’ve actually never knew so many men have had to wager whether sex was consensual or not. honestly this “hyper-vigilance” about men is news to me, But seemingly unlike yourself and many other commentors, I’m willing to LISTEN to that experience, not grow impatient when confronted about my lack of knowledge concerning the subject.
What about racial profiling:
I dont know a cop who wouldn’t call this racial profiling or argue the Brotha should have prevented it from happening. He couldn’t have. The issue with this discourse is the sensitivity around intelligent people to nitpick every verb, noun, and adjective used. The issue with prevention comes in less clear cut situations. Let’s be clear, racial profiling is still racial profiling even if a Black guy has an expensive car in the hood. Especially when looking suspicious or loitering around a known gang area, etc. Can we agree the water gets murkier when this same Brotha is seen taunting police, but later states he didn’t do nothing? I don’t know the percentages so I wont pretend to know how many cases actually refelct this or similar scenarios, but I think this is where the confusion or disconnect comes into play. Cops often discuss the latter because the situation you describe above is so clear they wont even dispute that. Even if the less clear set of circumstances only constitutes a small percentage of cases, cops are probably more interested in discussing the latter because we’re all in agreement about scenarios like the one you present above.
This is a touchy subject and doesnt help that educated folks often like to cherry pick one or two statements out of a discourse, I’m guilty of it too. I’ve read a lot of comments on here where it seems like Captain Obvious’s point is being entirely missed. I understood him to be saying essentially, we need to educate and hold cops accountable while also addressing how not to warrant getting stopped frequently with Blacks. Not sure how he “doesnt get it.”
There isn’t always prevention. I think that’s what we should drill in our heads. Sometimes, you can’t stop it. ALWAYS be careful.
I am stressing this because I know of a girl who was knocked unconscious and raped by a guy. She had to go to the hospital. When she told my friend the story, she said, “I never thought he would do something like this. He’s (of a specific religion). (that kind of) men have always treated me with respect. I never thought a guy (of that religion) would rape me!” When I heard that, I was just at a loss. No man is full-proof. Just because you have tons of male friends who share a particular characteristic and they never raped you doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there who will. While there aren’t any preventative measures that can prevent a rape 100%, we can’t think “oh hey I know him he would never rape me!” Shouldn’t we remind women that most rape isn’t of the nature that Champ described, but rather, it’s conducted by men who know the victim and have known her for some time?
How about this fool that was going around raping seniors at a senior living home in my community. I’m talking old senile old folks. He raped at least 3 women in a span of 3 months. SMH. As someone mentioned here earlier, a subject like this one should be left for expert that have studied it.
Exactly how would someone prevent that in any situation?
That’s like preventing someone from murdering someone. If a dude decides he’s going to rape a woman, or that raping women is an acceptable way to live his life, exactly how is that preventable through any action of society?
Some believe no matter what that they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want to do with whoever they want to do it with. You’re not changing them no matter what. When you catch them, you arrest them. The only people you can really try to impact are those people who want to do the right thing but may ignorant about exactly what is right, or lack the commitment to follow through on what’s right even when it is difficult.
Not random street rapists. Those folks are borderline incorrigible.
I don’t think men realize how much women do in their everyday lives to try to keep themselves safe. It’s disgusting that we have to bear this burden and then be open to further humiliation and abuse by those who don’t believe we’ve done enough if an assault takes place.
Men get raped too. Is that ever their fault?
The more I think about it, the more pissed off I get. Women are charged with damn near everything that men do. If you don’t wanna get raped, don’t drink, don’t wear anything that’s not a burlap sack, don’t flirt, don’t make eye contact, don’t ever walk alone, don’t talk to anyone you don’t know, don’t trust the men in your life, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t.
WhenTF will the sentiment be Men: If you see a man spike a drink, speak up, If you hear a man talking about “taking the p*ssy” speak up, If you hear a man recounting fondly a time when a girl said no and he continued anyway, speak up. When are men supposed to actually give a sh*t that it’s their wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, granddaughter, nieces, etc that are dealing with this burden alone?
I agree you don’t put yourself in the line of fire when it comes to many things. I think it’s ridiculous and maintains the status quo when you say “stop it…men can’t control everything so you ladies need to make sure you do your due diligence in staying safe,” as if that’s the issue, or that it’s not being done in the first place. It’s not and I can bet you most of us are doing everything we can not to be someone’s victim.
I don’t think men realize how much women do in their everyday lives to try to keep themselves safe
Especially young black women living in the city. I remember whole blocks I would pass because of certain houses that girls would pass walking home from school, only to get snatched up and have trains ran on them. My bff till this day still doesn’t feel right leaving her house without a box cutter, and she’s 27 and married. I’ve had to run up to train stations with my Mom to rescue a friend who was running from a group of men chasing her and trying to assault her while she “recklessly” got off work late. And we all still enforce the “come together, leave together” rule when we go out as adults.
The whole “to be aware to be alive” meme did not only apply to black men in my neighborhoods., shyt is not radical news.
There are reasons why women like me have had to look up the gun laws to see if we can legally carry a forearm in public.
It is why we are so mean on the street if a guy hollers at us or comments loudly on our ass, our breasts et cetera.
It is why at the family reunion some women risk being called stuck up because she doesn’t want to hug the cousins.
It is why some women just plain do not go out and drink with a man. She will dance, drink a soda. Not because she’s stuck up but because she wants to be safe.
It is why men you do trust escort you on the subways then turn right around and ride home on it when you’ve gotten home safely.
It is why we must take seriously how men talk about women. If he’s calling her out of her name using words that sound like he hates her while talking about how he “took it” he is letting you know he is a rapist.
I know rape survivors who:
Have nightmares and insomnia years after the event, even if they know logically that they are safe, they don’t feel safe.
Gained a lot of weight (or lost a lot of weight) to become less attractive to any man.
Turn to drugs, alcohol to numb the pain.
Got guard dogs, rifles, guns, and had a fence built around the property with the dogs in the fence, so that no one can get in without alerting dogs trained to kill.
Dropped out of college, lost their job due to the PTSD from the rape because the rape happened on campus or by a classmate or coworker or employer.
Why is it that so many women have stories of rape? Why is it that “Sister I Am Sorry” project that TD Jakes did was so popular with women years ago? Why it is that so many women see themselves in a Tyler Perry play/movie?
[Like]
“Women are charged with damn near everything that men do. If you don’t wanna get raped, don’t drink, don’t wear anything that’s not a burlap sack, don’t flirt, don’t make eye contact, don’t ever walk alone, don’t talk to anyone you don’t know, don’t trust the men in your life, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t.”
^^ This may seem like an exaggeration to a man, but it’s not. This is what women deal with day in and day out. And even when every single one of the tenets above are followed, rape still happens. In some Islamic states wherein women are covered from head to toe including mesh covering their eyes, where they aren’t allowed out after dark without a male companion (husband or older family member), where they are disallowed eye contact with strangers, etc etc etc, RAPE STILL HAPPENS.
You can eliminate most salt from your diet and still have hypertension. You can loose weight and still have diabetes. You can wear a seatbelt and still die in a car accident. This doesn’t mean you should just say eff it, consume all the salt you want, gain all the weight you want, and remove seatbelts from your car just because they don’t work in every situation.
Difference is… salt, seltbelts, gravity, fat, oncoming traffic… are all INANIMATE OBJECTS… that have no moral framework or lackthereof thus cannot be held accountable.
Other people… CHOOSE what they do to you. Their own will and decisions affect your life, in the case of rape (for the worse.)
You can only control what you do. I’m only suggesting that would-be victims do all they can so as not to contribute to the situation. This does not absolve the perpetrator of guilt, it simply seeks to add a layer of protection to she who would become a victim.
“n some Islamic states wherein women are covered from head to toe including mesh covering their eyes, where they aren’t allowed out after dark without a male companion (husband or older family member), where they are disallowed eye contact with strangers, etc etc etc, RAPE STILL HAPPENS.”
Yup. I had a shaykh (the equivalent of a pastor in the Muslim faith) tell me that no matter how covered a woman can be, she must always be careful because there are sick men out there. As many preventative measures as we take, ultimately, a rapist has chosen to rape. “Sisters, I want to tell you something: all men are wolves! Keep that in mind.” I know he wasn’t trying to say that all men are rapists but that we have to know that no matter how good we are, it can still happen to us.
Agree! And I agree with most of the other commenters with similar sentiments.
Not only are women being maliciouly raped. Young girls are being abused and raped. A colleague of mine did a study on young girls and found that most of what they learn about behaving socially is about ‘not being too grown, not dressing like this or that, because if you do, you are asking for it. In a one southern city, there were 100 teenaged mothers in a program. Guess how many of the fathers were teens. Uhh, lets just say 99 weren’t. This to me is ridiculous. Not saying these are all examples of rape (well actually that is statutory rape), but you get my point. Good & grown ass men are preying on girls that are kids, under aged, or just turned the legal age limit intentionally or looking for the most reckless drunk girl at the party, or planning and attacking women (strangers and non-strangers). This really is sicking. And yes, each example is ALL about power and control.
It doesn’t matter if I’m dressing skimpy (i.e. “slutty”). I read one time you are more likely to get raped in sweat pants. It doesn’t matter if I’m drunk or not or if I’m “a lady” or not…and for the kids particularly, it really doesn’t matter the gender.
Yes, men need some focus on them, some education (clearly), and to be held to a much higher level of accountability by society and particularly their friends! Girls and women have BEEN the focus and no matter what we do or don’t do, if all men were respectable and decided NOT to rape, rapes would stop.
Not all but a significant portion certainly
“When are men supposed to actually give a sh*t that it’s their wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, granddaughter, nieces, etc that are dealing with this burden alone?” A lot do Mo, they just aren’t the ones to speak up. Also, until it happens close to home (mom, sister, or daughter) it is seen as something that happens to other people. But trust, I ask myself this question a lot. And not just with violence but every burden that is placed on our shoulders. You would have thought that we (women) would have broken by now but we just keep moving forward.
But even when it does happen, close to home that is, do they blame the man that got raped, or masculinity in it’s entirety? If they’ve never raped, why should they feel guilty for some man who decided to do that to their mother, daughter, sister, neice etc.
What i was getting at is that until something hits close to home, it doesn’t really become reality for you. No, you shouldn’t feel guilty for someone else’s actions but there is a difference b/w empathy and sympathy.
I feel rage if someone bumps my sister while walking, I don’t notice anyone that bumps into anyone else. Human beings are supposed to have stronger feelings for those who are close to them, if they didn’t every human being in their mind would be interchangeable.
Think about how many women you have in your life: mother, sisters, aunts, cousins, nieces, etc. Now think about the 1 in 4 (or 1 and 3, depending upon the source) rate of sexual assault, rape that a woman will experience in her lifetime. Keeping that figure in mind, either 25-33% of women you know, love, interact with and care about have or will be subjected to what we are talking about.
If more men understood that and cared, even just for the ones in his circle, he’d want to know how he could join in helping keep ALL women safe.
I mean think of the alternative: imagine every man you know, is told he’s a possible rapist from the age of 12 yrs old. That every rape that comes about he’s responsible for. It doesn’t matter how nice he is to women, it doesn’t matter how many doors he opens, it doesn’t matter how much love letters he writes…he’s still considered a probable rapist.
Think about it, if you’re a guy and you believe that no matter what you do, there is always going to be a possibility that a woman is going to view you as a probable rapist: are you going to be aggressive in approaching women, with that fear in the back of your head? Aren’t you going to be bitter when you find out that an asshole hooked up with a girl you liked, because you were too scared to approach her, due to the fact that you were scared that she might call you a creep or thought of you as a guy who could possibly rape her? If you’re a guy who carries the guilt of men raping women, aren’t you going to try to be friends with women that you’re attracted to instead of being direct and open to them, because you don’t want to scare them off?
All I’m saying is thinking the way you’re suggesting men should think, leads to men become unattractive and creepy. Most women are so caught up looking at the small amount of men who rape women that they’re not even acknowledging the guys who’ve decided to carry the guilt of that those men should have, but care nothing about. And they’re completely unaware of the consequences.
If a man approached life the way you’re suggesting he should approach life, he would end up being like the 40 yr old virgin. A timid, nice guy that doesn’t take charge because he’s scared that he might hurt a woman’s feelings, so instead of making decisions, instead of taking risk, he would need a woman to give him permission on everything! Permission to kiss, permission to have sex, permission to have a romantic evening, permission to play a certain kind of song in the bedroom, permission to go down, permission to be mysterious etc obviously this man isn’t going to get any ass from any woman if things keep going this way.
So what happens, the guy gets repressed, he gets mad, he wonders why he’s so pathetic, he becomes angry. He sees all these women who he wanted to protect so badly he begins to wonder why he can’t get none of them to take a chance with him. He asks his friends what to do and he’s disgusted when they tell him to get a hooker, he feels like a rapist even thinking about hookers. He goes to women, and women say to him what they say to all nice men: “You’ll find the right girl someday!” It doesn’t happen, he builds even more resentment. All of a sudden he finally meets a lonely strange girl, she likes him. She kisses him, he puts his hands down her skirt, the guy is close to finally hitting up that mecca of pleasure that he’s been rejected for so long, but he doesn’t know what he’s doing. The girl gets uncomfortable, she tells the guy to stop, but he doesn’t want to stop, he can’t hear her…all his pent up resentment flourishes, he has a chance to finally penetrate a woman, he loses him mind. 10 minutes later the girl is crying on the floor, the man is corrupted, possessed, spiritually dead…and we’re right there having this same exact conversation.
One of the biggest motivators men have for avoiding jail is fear of prison rape. A lot of guys want to make sure they stay as far away from prison as possible so that won’t happen.
“Men get raped too. Is that ever their fault?”
Imo it’s not. In the opinion of many of the men I’ve talked to YES. “If you a grown man, ain’t no excuse for getting raped by another man. You just a b*tch”. They even still made fun of Razz B (B2K) for getting raped by his bodyguard and dude was a kid when this happened. I don’t wanna take away from your point about men not being held to the same standards as women or being held accountable at all, just wanted to answer that question because it was a good one…
It’s actually not his fault either.
Truth is, no one is ever prepared when it comes to victimization. I agree. It is never a woman’s fault if she gets violated, the same goes for a boy or a man. But in the subject of Raz-B and his rape, he is the perfect example of feminism upholding a strong idea that only women could be victims and men are the perpetrators and the ones in control. Feminism killed the idea that MEN CAN NEVER BE VICTIMS OF RAPE, no wonder there is no exact number of male child sexual abuse victims. People mock Raz B’s rape sending a message that he’s supposed to be strong enough, powerful enough, and smart enough to fight off his aggressor. Instead of helping him, society police his (and other boys’) masculinity.
“Feminism killed the idea that MEN CAN NEVER BE VICTIMS OF RAPE, no wonder there is no exact number of male child sexual abuse victims. ”
Yeah, no. I’mma need you to not make absolutely false statements like this. It has been admitted by MEN that their own sense of pride/embarrassment keeps them from reporting cases. Same with domestic abuse when women attack men. Men are usually ashamed to report that because it means they will be likely subjected to ridicule from society (which includes women AND their fellow men). Women claiming a sense of independence is NOT to weaken men, it’s to strengthen ourselves. Men who continue to claim the opposite sound like undercover racists who say “Black Power” is meant to degrade white folks. Nawl son. It’s about us, not you. Have an array of seats.
“In the opinion of many of the men I’ve talked to YES. “If you a grown man, ain’t no excuse for getting raped by another man. You just a b*tch”. They even still made fun of Razz B (B2K) for getting raped by his bodyguard and dude was a kid when this happened.”
This ish pisses me off, too, actually. It’s another form of victim-blaming and it’s very dangerous.
“I don’t think men realize how much women do in their everyday lives to try to keep themselves safe.”
Word.
You can’t tell someone it’s never their fault, but it might be your fault in the same sentence. This is why women (and men, btw) have such a hard time coming forward. Because immediately people want to know, were you drunk, how well did you know him, why were you in that particular place, how many men have you slept with previously? If rape is never okay, then it’s never okay. End of story. All I’m getting from your opinion is that it might be partially your fault (so partially NOT the rapist’s fault) if you were drunk, 5’1, and 110 pounds. I’m 5’8 and 175 pounds…am I allowed to get drunk in your world?
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
Hah! good old victim blaming. Women should take responsibility in getting rape right? I’m so offended by this post because it leaves out the most important aspect of rape which is POWER. Why is it when a woman is rapped she’s always blamed for it? Heck take the comments over at Clutch or any black website talking about Delicious’s(flavor of love) rape. People tend to negate the fact that this guy was 10 years older than her and a predator(hanging around the high school) and went straight into victim blaming.
Most women are not rape because of the alcohol they consume or the way they’re dress. If it was so easy to pinpoint why women are rape then tell me why 1 out of 3 women soldiers are raped?…
Blame the Gender War…
The vast majority of men aren’t rapist, and they shouldn’t have to feel the guilt of the fact that men who do rape women exist and have always existed. Just as every rape is different, every man is an individual. Those who rape women should be punished and should serve time in prison and deserved to be looked down upon by the rest of society, just as we look down at pedophiles.
However, just as we don’t educate kids about pedophilia and how to not become a pedophile, we shouldn’t educate kids (esp. boys) on rape in an effort to ensure that they don’t become rapist. The only basis for teaching boys about rape, or teaching boys, no means no, is that there is evidence that boys are predisposed to become rapist; however, most women and our society have taken this unwise approach to teaching men, and we’re living through the consequences today.
This is why I think feminist ideology, has triggered more rapist than has stopped them. If you call a woman a b*tch constantly, two things are likely to happen if she was never a b*tch to start with: a) She will become a b*tch or b) She will act to constantly repress her anger and frustration in order to prove that she isn’t one leading her to hate the people who are calling her b*tch. Same thing goes for feminists, if you constantly tell men that they’re evil (whether it be intentional or not), and they aren’t, you will either create a) evil men or b) you will create repressed men who will avoid everything they can to not appear evil, but will end up hating women in the process.
Rapist are generally extreme haters of women, although hatred for women is very prevalent today, for the reasons I expressed above; what separates them from average men, is their desire to harm women due to that hatred. And it’s not the hatred of the past that women think it is. It’s a hatred that came as a result of feminist ideas actually succeeding, but the lack of wisdom that was invested into those same ideas. Feminists never considered the impact unearned guilt would have on men, and the impact it would have on generations of men to come. The Result: we live in a society where the conditions between men and women are at an all time worst and nobody is asking the simple question why?
If you wonder why it appears when a rape happens the first thing men do is blame the women, women are right if they believe it’s because men hate them, but they probably have no idea, as to why they are hated. When women were constantly putting the guilt of the sins of a few men on the vast majority, they never considered the result, now when things are bad they expect these same men, who’ve been broken down by guilt for generations, to be sympathizers of their plights, and don’t understand why that isn’t the case in reality.
So I understand, that rape is awful and it’s terrible, but as an honest man, I understand why men victim blame, because I see the bigger picture and I understand the feeling behind it. It’s impossible in our gender war (which we all know exists, but we prefer to play dumb like it doesn’t) for us to do anything constructive to reduce the onset of rape, because a whole generation of men, who were told they were evil, grew up to not like the people who accused them of being evil; many of which became insensitive towards women (most men), and others who simply have began to practice evil towards women (rapist, violent men, abusers, music etc.) In turn, we have a new generation of women who hate and have no respect for men today.
Until the gender war ends, having conversations about how to end rape, violence, abuse between the sexes is futile. And anyone who reads the blogs, listen to men and women constantly talk about each other and their frustration, reads the magazines, the relationship books etc, know this to be the only truth.
This infantile, illogical, and pathetic attempt to blame feminism for rape is CRA-ZY.
Guess what, rape happened before feminism… It also happens extremely frequently in places where feminism has not taken hold, ie. Congo. So f*ck off, hater.
Rapists continue because in their heads… they don’t see what they are doing as rape. They see it as ‘extra persuasion’ to get the women to have sex with them. You know, like someone said above… It’s ridiculous to them they should have to ask the consent of a woman they had in the sights if she had too much to drink. It’s ridiculous to expect them to keep it in their pants for a night if they don’t have a clear green light… it’s preposterous to them that their orgasm is less important than her enthusiasm for the act of sex between them. To them, it’s all about getting theirs by any means necessary. Most of them do this because they actually recount it later to friends as a consensual affair so they get high fives, and accolades. They just leave out the part where they gave her a roofie, or where she was passed out, or where she clawed at him to get off … as just ‘rough sex.’ They minimize and excuse themselves. The last thing they think of is bad about themselves.
If you give them an excuse umbrella they will absolutely take shade under it.
The quantity over quality of men’s socialization towards sex has a lot to do with rape. It bestows favors on men who get high numbers but doesn’t ask them the details of how and why or where they got those numbers. It shifts the emphasis onto the approval of friends vs. the enjoyment of the women. It makes women *objects* to be collected… and no wonder some men take that to heart and really don’t see women as other human beings. Same thing happens in war, de-humanize the enemy so it eases the conscience when you kill them.
Infantile. +1
“F*ck off hater…” kinda proving my point ain’t you….
Your idea of what goes on in the mind of a rapist, is an actual attempt at dehumanizing the rapist in the process of accusing him of dehumanizing the victim. In your mind, it is inhuman to want to kill, to want to take advantage of another person, yet history shows otherwise – humans aren’t all the same.
There was a video that went viral a couple weeks ago of some Congolese men talking about raping women during the war…they knew it was rape. They didn’t care if the woman liked it or not, they saw it for what it was. So this idea that rapist are ignorant rationalizers is utter nonsense. All rapist know what they’re doing, just like pedophiles, and to suggest that there is something wrong with their head or that they are guilty of some abnormality is the ultimate form of psychologizing – they know it’s wrong. And truth be told, if rapist were guilty of thinking the way you claim they think, then according to the law, they should be sent to psych wards, rather than to prison, which I’m sure you’re all for.
Returning to feminism, feminism isn’t guilty of causing rape, but feminism is guilty of providing an uncivil environment where rape can neither be addressed or discussed with the purpose of solving the problem between men and women. You wonder why men victim blame, I told you why, because they don’t like you and feel less empathy for you than they ever did before. Shouldn’t men be more sympathetic, shouldn’t men be more compassionate to rape victims? Why aren’t we, because when we tell you why, like I just did, we’re called haters, misogynist and we’re simply marginalized. So is it inhuman when you come by telling me something horrific that happened to you, that I myself say nah “You go f*ck off hater?”
There is no doubt in my mind that we are all social creatures, but we are also individuals. Men don’t have this secret contract to screw women and keep them at the bottom of the totem pole, when most men are at the bottom of totem pole as is. It’s easier to look at the worse of us, and then attack the majority of us because we give a sh*t, rather than to attack the worse of us who don’t give a damn. That’s what feminists do, and constantly do and then get mad, when men who don’t feel the need to be driven by guilt don’t side with them on every issue.
Let’s try this again.
There is NO way to prevent rape. None. NAN. No magic pill, no magic word. Rapists. Are. Going. To. Rape. And if you’re blaming feminism for rape culture, you obviously don’t know what feminism is.
If that’s what you got from such a clear statement as this:
“Returning to feminism, feminism isn’t guilty of causing rape, but feminism is guilty of providing an uncivil environment where rape can neither be addressed or discussed with the purpose of solving the problem between men and women. ” (Kinda of why every dude on here is beginning to side-step away from the issue)
Then you need to clear your mind, and re-read my comment, trust me.
“but feminism is guilty of providing an uncivil environment where rape can neither be addressed or discussed with the purpose of solving the problem between men and women.”
You failed the mention the tons of men who feel the women “deserve it”, doe. Doesn’t really add much to discussion now does it?
But those men aren’t interested in finding a solution.
“There was a video that went viral a couple weeks ago of some Congolese men talking about raping women during the war…they knew it was rape. They didn’t care if the woman liked it or not, they saw it for what it was. So this idea that rapist are ignorant rationalizers is utter nonsense. All rapist know what they’re doing, just like pedophiles, and to suggest that there is something wrong with their head or that they are guilty of some abnormality is the ultimate form of psychologizing – they know it’s wrong. And truth be told, if rapist were guilty of thinking the way you claim they think, then according to the law, they should be sent to psych wards, rather than to prison, which I’m sure you’re all for.”
“All rapist know what they’re doing”
read:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Specifically, this paragraph and what follows:
” If a survey asks men, for example, if they ever “had sexual intercourse with somone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances,” some of them will say yes, as long as the questions don’t use the “R” word.”
Myopic +1
“This infantile, illogical, and pathetic attempt to blame feminism for rape is CRA-ZY.”
Very true!
That last paragraph is on point.
“I understand why men victim blame, because I see the bigger picture and I understand the feeling behind it.”
Double Ewe Tee Eff? You know what….. nevermind. I just can’t with this right now.
Well, hmmm, I mean here’s the opposite view of what I’m saying, maybe you’ll prefer this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw
*side eye*
The f*ck are you talking about? You sound ignorant.
Can you expand on that?
I could but I won’t.
Most women don’t have an explanation for their opinions, since their opinions weren’t built on logic anyways.
Cause men’s opinions are ALWAYS are built on logic, right? Psh.
Nope, that is true. The difference is that if you use logic, to show a man he has no logic, he either tells you to “eff off”, or he accepts that he’s wrong. Women, will argue about nothing till you get tired, or till they find an appropriate time to attack your manhood or your mama?
And what logic are you basing this opinion on?
Simply look at the back and forth on here.
so one gender is logical all the time….No
Blame the Race War…
The vast majority of whites aren’t racist, and they shouldn’t have to feel the guilt of the fact that slavery once existed and discrimination has always existed. Just as every racial interaction is different, every white man is an individual. Those who are racist skinheads should be punished and should serve time in prison and deserved to be looked down upon by the rest of society, just as we look down at homocidal homophobes.
However, just as we don’t educate kids about homophobia and how to not become a homophobe, we shouldn’t educate kids (esp. white ones) on racism in an effort to ensure that they don’t become racist. The only basis for teaching whites about race, or teaching whites that minorities are equals, is that there is evidence that whites are predisposed to become racist; however, most Blacks and our society have taken this unwise approach to teaching whites about race relations, and we’re living through the consequences today.
This is why I think Black Power ideology, has triggered more racists than has stopped them. If you call a Black a N8gga constantly, two things are likely to happen if he was never a N8gga to start with: a) He will become a N*gga or b) He will act to constantly repress his anger and frustration in order to prove that he isn’t one leading him to hate the people who are calling him a N8gga. Same thing goes for Civil Right proponents, if you constantly tell whites that they’re evil (whether it be intentional or not), and they aren’t, you will either create a) evil whites or b) you will create repressed whites who will avoid everything they can to not appear evil, but will end up hating Blacks and Jews in the process.
Racists are generally extreme haters of minorities, although hatred for minorities is very prevalent today, for the reasons I expressed above; what separates them from average white folks, is their desire to harm minorities due to that hatred. And it’s not the hatred of the past that Blacks think it is. It’s a hatred that came as a result of civil rights ideas actually succeeding, but the lack of wisdom that was invested into those same ideas. Black power proponents never considered the impact unearned guilt would have on white people, and the impact it would have on generations of white people to come. The Result: we live in a society where the conditions between whites and blacks are at an all time worst and nobody is asking the simple question why?
If you wonder why it appears when a racial incident happens the first thing whites do is blame the blacks, blacks are right if they believe it’s because whites hate them, but they probably have no idea, as to why they are hated. When Blacks and other minorities were constantly putting the guilt of the sins of a few whites on the vast majority, they never considered the result, now when things are bad they expect these same whites, who’ve been broken down by guilt for generations, to be sympathizers of their plights, and don’t understand why that isn’t the case in reality.
So I understand, that rape is awful and it’s terrible, but as an honest Oreo, I understand why whites victim blame, because I see the bigger picture and I understand the feeling behind it. It’s impossible in our race war (which we all know exists, but we prefer to play dumb like it doesn’t) for us to do anything constructive to reduce the onset of rape, because a whole generation of whites, who were told they were evil, grew up to not like the people who accused them of being evil; many of which became insensitive towards minorities (most whites), and others who simply have began to practice evil towards minorities (KKK, skinheads, Republicans, hate music etc.) In turn, we have a new generation of Blacks who hate and have no respect for whites today.
Until the race war ends, having conversations about how to end racism, violence, abuse between the races is futile. And anyone who reads the blogs, listen to whites and blacks constantly talk about each other and their frustration know this to be the only truth.
If a race war existed, this would have been an excellent attempt at satire, but unfortunately it doesn’t, but I will give you the credit for going through the work to write all that out though. Also, I would hope, black people aren’t asking white people to protect them from other white people, since we’re incapable of doing it ourselves, since we’re weaker and can’t defend ourselves (although, a lot black people have that low self esteem when it comes to the belief that black people need white people to protect them)
You keep doing this. I get it. You’re pointing out how crazy it would sound if it was about another issue. But you’re diluting your point by spending a lot of effort to point out how nonsensical what they are saying is, without pointing out why.
Apparently there is a knowledge disconnect. People come from different experiences. You apparently know something the people you keep doing this to don’t know. Instead of using that intellect of yours to find a way to express your point in a way that they understand, or instead of making a point by point rebuttal to their assertions, which would take the same amount of typing, you’re choosing to ridicule them. This wastes a teaching moment.
If the disconnect between women and men on the understanding of rap is such that men shouldn’t even participate in the conversation (as other people said earlier) shouldn’t we be doing everything we can to lessen that gap?
This doesn’t start by pointing out how stupid someone is.
Umm…really? Did I really just read this? It reads as though the title should be “If I were a woman, this is what I’d do to not get raped”
Yeah, it’s just like that.
How long have you been a woman? So you can speak on how a woman can protect herself from a rapist? Every single day, I’m constantly looking over my shoulder making sure there’s not some weirdo following me to my apartment…actually, I don’t have the energy for this response.
Champ, I really get where you were trying to go with this, but you absolutely missed the mark. Actually, I hope you were trolling, I’d feel a little better about this if you were.
As a woman…
I agree. And appreciate that you’re saying this boldly.
::ducks tar, feathers::
This seems to suggest that having all of your wits about you at all times can keep you from being raped. That couldn’t be farther from the truth.
No amount of awareness or even aptitude for self-defense in many cases can save a woman from her attacker. Rape is so deviant and so rooted in control that nothing can stop a person intent on committing the crime. Furthermore, for many, that same deviance and control make impending rape paralyzing for victims confronted with it.
Moreover, here’s the thing. I SHOULD be able to do any and everything I please without RAPE being a repercussion. So while yes, a women AND men would be well advised to forgo the “50-11″ shots for various health and safety reasons as well as for the sake of Sunday productivity, preventing rape is not one of them.
“Moreover, here’s the thing. I SHOULD be able to do any and everything I please without RAPE being a repercussion. ”
I don’t agree with this. At all. That’s like me saying I SHOULD be able to do any and everything I please without getting shot or stabbed. Rape is a lot of things but it also is still a violent crime. And crime can be avoided in certain situations. But no crime can be prevented all the time and I wouldn’t suggest otherwise and neither (I think) is Champ.
i’m not even going to try to deconstruct this argument because that lends it credence. i will not accept another person policing my autonomy or access to my body. period.
HELL NO there is nothing on this earth that I could do that should lead to my being raped.
These discussions make me think of my own future family. I don’t know what terrifies me more–bringing a girl into this world who will be subject to this kind of thinking; or bringing a boy into this world who will perpetuate this kind of thinking.
Noone is attempting to police your autonomy. We understand that saying certain things to certain people will get you shot. We understand that leaving your car doors open might lead to theft.
I don’t think that anyone on this whole page is saying that there are things you can do to prevent rape in every situation. Rapists rape.
Should you be able to do 50 shots and go home with a random dude you just met on the subway, fall unconscious in his company, and wake up unmolested? Yes.
But seriously, would you?
As in most things in life, there is what “should” be and then there’s what “is”….sometimes they are the same thing, often times they are not, unfortunately. Very sad.
Here’s a brief summary of this post:
“I agree with Zerlina and all, and she makes great arguments – but if I’m up in the club and a girl gets tipsy, I still want license to have my way with her. ’cause, you know, she should’ve had the common sense to not get that lit.”
This post is idiotic. Point of fact, if a woman is intoxicated, it doesn’t matter whether she said “no,” “yes,” or even “hell, yes.” It’s rape. You know what common sense says to me? Follow the law.
Right. It’s about everyone taking responsibility for themselves. A man shouldn’t want the “easy p*ssy” because that can land him in jail. A woman shouldn’t want to lose her ability to coherently make choices because that can contribute to her being victimized.
Overall though, it’s still the person’s fault who decided to rape. Again, I get what Champ is trying to say, he just said it in a f-ked up and inflammatory manner; which is why everyone is up in arms (including me).
Here’s a question. When men and women go out with the intention of hooking up, go to a spot, start talking to someone, both parties get intoxicated, stumble home, and have sex, thats rape?
Because that’s considered a great Saturday in a lot of people’s books.
Saying as soon as alcohol enters the picture, consent can’t be given, is a little far reaching in my book. If shes unconscious, yes. If she’s saying no or unclear about the situation, yes. But if we’re both pawing at each other, and she’s going for the goal as soon as we get in the door, I’m sorry, that ain’t rape.
I have a problem with articles that basically state “We know that most of the time it’s the rapist’s fault that he decides to rape someone, and most of the time he’s not tempted into it BUT sometimes…”
There is no SOMETIMES in rape. Rape is what it is. A few VSS said it above. Rape is an act of power and aggression.
When I go out at night, I am always aware of every move I make and the situation those moves may place me in:
I drive to my destination with at least one other person. I drink in moderation. I make sure that I move with a group. I make sure that the trusted members of that group are always within my line of sight. If, while dancing, my partner attempts to move me out of said group, I make damn sure that I stop him, grab one of my girlfriends and point out exactly where I’m going, that she sees dude’s face, and that she’s watching out for me. My friends have all been instructed that if EVER I seem to be acting outside of my norm, they are to cockblock to the fullest extent of their abilities, including and up to removing me from the premises. We leave together. When I drop a friend off, I watch and make sure that she gets inside and the door shuts behind her before driving off. And when I get home, I walk with my keys in hand, cell phone on and talking to that same friend just in case something happens before I get to my door.
This is normal MO for me, and for many women. This level of paranoia should not be necessary for a 27-year-old woman living in a good neighborhood in the suburbs.
But it is. And the reason why it’s necessary is so that if, God forbid, something was to happen and I, or my friends, was to be sexually assaulted I would be able to state that I did everything in my power to prevent it from happening. Because to do otherwise in our current society would be to invite and incite the blame of the RAPE CULTURE that the original article referenced.
But it is. And the reason why it’s necessary is so that if, God forbid, something was to happen and I, or my friends, was to be sexually assaulted I would be able to state that I did everything in my power to prevent it from happening. Because to do otherwise in our current society would be to invite and incite the blame of the RAPE CULTURE that the original article referenced.
This is so true and so sad. I sat here looking at all of us detailing all the precautions and safety checks we make to prevent the possibility of assault, as if to somehow separate ourselves from the reckless Patron-guzzling h03 in Champs example. But fcku that. Sometimes I am that Patron guzzling ho3. No I can’t even think of downing 50-11 shots. In fact with my notoriously low alcohol tolerance try 3. But have I gotten a lil tipsy on the 4th or 5th date?
Yeah I have, *gasp* looks like I’ll have to give up my living quarters at the convent!
What offends me is the notion of some man obviously ignorant about the cycle of rape victims and women, tell me that by doing so I’m consciously participating and upping the ante on my chances to be raped. Because I am a woman, I have no room for mistakes, and no room for vulnerability, for if I do let down my guards, or make the mistake of trusting a man whom I’ve been on 13 dates with, I share the blame in some sick maladjusted pervert’s actions. There is something abhorrently wrong with that thought process. The lines between “common sense” and victim blaming are not thin at all.
I just need to take my a$$ to bed..its too early, and rent is too high, for me to be compromising my blood pressure.
Your posts have been so spot on and amazing
Sooo agree!
Thank you sister. This is right. This post was a slap in the face.
While in high school, a good friend of mine passed away due to being slipped GHB, a.k.a “date rape drug” in her drink. There was this guy at a bar she’d went too with friends that just wouldn’t leave her alone. He kept pestering her about having a dance and no matter how many times she said no, he wouldn’t give up. So; he promised her that if she had a drink with him he would leave her alone, annoyed she agreed to the drink, and later became ill. My friends saw her whole poster changed, and they decide to take her to her grandmothers house, because she demonstrating signs of possible intoxication. She started complaining about a serious headache and blurred vision, but being under the age of 21, the didn’t want to go to the hospital for fear of going to jail. Her grandmother gave her two Tylenol p.m., she laid down, fell asleep and never woke up again.
While I was active duty Navy, a woman went out with some friends. She met a guy, they had ONE drink, and the next morning she woke up with a broken jaw, dislocated shoulder, cracked ribs, and a black eye. Medical examinations showed that she’d be vaginally, orally raped and sodomized.
Two brothers in Florida a while back where arrested along with a local bartender for a date rape scam they had going. They would pick out a woman, buy her a spiked drink (they would pay the bartender to slip the drug in the woman’s drink); and they would take her home. While she was passed out both brothers would take turns raping her and video taping themselves in the act. Later showing it too their friends.
All it took was one drink for my friend, for the woman in the hospital, and the women whom where video taped by the two brothers to become victims of rape and sexual assault. My friend had ONE drink at the hands of a carelessness creep whom was seeking to score sex from an intoxicated/drunk woman. And nows she’s no longer with is. She wasn’t drunk off her ass! She didn’t take shots of patron to the head and now she’s dead. The young woman whom ended up in the hospital with broken bones wasn’t dancing on a table after too many cosmos, now she has to live with those emotional scars for the rest of her life.
And this is something that many men either brag about having accomplished or don’t want to talk about. There was a fraternity recently in hot water for having its pledges pick out which girl they wanted to rape for entering into the brotherhood. This is that dirty little secret that young men stash under their beds with smut magazines and used socks.
Our society seeks to find a way to blame women for being sexual assaulted while under the influence, because deep down in side there’s still this unyielding need to blame a woman for being raped/sexually assaulted. They either want to attack her sexual history, her style of dress, her drinking habits or what she looked like as a means of justifying that ‘men will be men’; thus we as women are responsible for ensuring we’re not a victim of a sexual predator. Hell, we’re the weaker sex, we asked for it right?
Yes, we should watch what we drink and how much. But a woman can have a spiked glass of water and just look as drunk as a woman who’s had a whole bottle of Jack. And everyone will blame her because she looks drunk (vs. drugged).
Many women who’ve been raped under the influenced where actually victims of being drugged with GHB, roofies, roaches, and X for example and didn’t know it until toxicology reports demonstrated traces of the substance.
Thus, its easy to say that a “drunk” woman is at fault for the outcome of what happens to her vagina while under the influence, because she should have known better right?
Do note that there are just as many (if not more) men who’re raped/sexual assaulted by other men when under the influence of drugs and alcohol. Male on male rape is one of the most under-reported/prosecuted forms of sexual assault world wide, because men refuse to come forward and admit to having being taken advantaged of by another man, for fear of their sexuality being questioned.
Maybe you should think about addressing that in your next blog.
This whole post….I just can’t today. Those occurrances are so heartbreaking
I also had a friend who was drugged at a small gathering with law school friend no less… she did not die, thankfully, because she went to the hospital and they found the roofie drugs in her system.
I get what Champ is saying and I agree.
There is nothing wrong with telling a woman to be careful in certain situations as long as we tell men to be careful in certain situations as well. I think the problem is the use of the word “responsibility”. Once you start assigning responsibility, then you start assigning “blame”. Just the suggestion or mere perception that the victim is being blamed is a definite no no and guaranteed to get people upset.
Rape has existed since men and women have existed. There will always be victims and perpetrators. But proper education might keep the numbers down a little.
Agreed. But language is a weapon, and should be treated as such in discussions like this.
Which is why I don’t know how much more I can or will say on this topic today.
Agreed. This is what I took from it. Saying ‘be careful” isn’t an accusation of not being careful.
When you fixate the entire narrative on “be careful” you are minimizing the fault of those that actually rape. There’s a reason a woman’s sexual history become illegal to bring up in during any point arrest from police questioning to the trail itself.
Exactly Malik.
How will proper education keep the numbers down, exactly? What women have ever, in the history of humanity, not been taught to be careful and watch out for rapists? How does a woman prevent being raped by an uncle, boyfriend, date? HOW?! Because you know good and God Damn well that is 90% of rapes. Those men plan it. They wait for the moment. They spike your drink, they lie and tell you they’re taking you home and drive you to some abandoned place. They wait weeks, months acting like a nice guy until they have enough trust to get you alone. She doesn’t need to be drunk for him to overpower her.
Somebody better fcuking tell me what “common sense” education is supposed to prevent that. SPIT IT OUT if you know it. Don’t hold that valuable knowledge to yourself.
When I said proper education I was mostly referring to the men. But some women need it too.
I think people are getting stuck on a couple of things other than that hated word “responsibility”. One of those seems to be the idea of prevention. Ultimately you can’t prevent rape from happening. It can happen to anyone at anytime. But you can minimize the risk of rape in certain situations. Why does that fact seem to offend folks so much?
Also, I don’t think anyone suggested that there is a one size fits all solution for something so uncontrollable as getting raped. Almost any situation can lead to a rape however some can be more easily avoided than others. And some can’t be avoided ever for many different reasons. Again, why is acknowledging that offensive?
Because it causes the rspe victim to not report, when she does, it causes the prosecutor not to pursue because a jury won’t convict. All because the only thing on people’s minds is what did she do? Until that mentality is removed, we need to focus on what is the best method for combatting rape. The worst method is repeating “use common sense”. I think that makes rape easier for men to get away with. He knows it will be her word against his and she will be blamed.
But you can minimize the risk of rape in certain situations. Why does that fact seem to offend folks so much?
Surely you can understand how a rape victim who did all of the above whom reads these commonplace suggestions sees this and gets frustrated. She did everything right, and still became a victim.
And surely you can understand how a rape victim who may have gotten a lil drunk on a date reads this, and gets hurt, because she has spent so much of her time blaming herself, and replaying that night in her head.
What I don’t understand is people acting as if “prevention education” is infallible. Champ of all people, whom has done several posts regarding how even he himself after years of sex-ed, and AIDS scare campaigns, still with all that preventive indoctrination engaged and engages in unprotected sex, feign shock that yes even women have lapses in judgement, and focuses on that lapse as some unacknowledged contributor to rape.
The fact of the matter is , women are all taught to protect ourselves, we are all aware of the world we live in, and that regardless we will have to account for our actions, hence why so many rapes go unreported. That’s been covered ad nauseam, but why is the proposition that young men also be taught about the damaging effects of rape, or perhaps the notion of not having sex with an inebriated women met with so much push back? When do we address the responsibility of people other then the victims?
+1
“Proper education” has been going on for decades. Yet in America, a woman has a 1 in 5 chance of being raped. For Black women, it’s 1 in 4.
This “proper education” is obviously not working.
I’m sure a lot of yall KNOW how I feel about this topic. I’ll be sure to go off in the morning when I’m by my laptop.
I’m raising 3 little black boys in a European country and even though my eldest is only 6 years old, I’m already teaching him that if a girl (or anybody for that matter) says “stop” or “get off of me” then he needs to do it immediately. This all just a precursor to teaching him that “no means no” and that he has no right to a female’s body because lord knows, there is no way to go to jail faster than having some little white girl point her finger at a black boy and say that he raped her. I feel that it’s my responsibility as a mother to teach my boys this and that the benefits are two-fold: 1) no rapist will be coming out of my house and 2) they will be conscious of situations that could implicate them in unwanted sexual contact. It’s a drill but I think it should be one of the basics of parenting: teaching table manners, making sure they do their homework and leaving girls the f*** alone.
That said: I’ve experienced rape culture myself in spite of all of my precautions: black belt in karate, limited myself to one drink, dressed modestly, went out with my female cousins in tow and STILL got something slipped into my drink… and by a boyfriend of one of my cousins, I suspect. Damn.
Preach! My dad drilled the no means no thing on me, and it got me out of a couple of precarious situations. Why play games when guessing wrong means having your name dragged through the mud? No thank you! And if the woman is that nuts to fool around like that, perhaps you should forget you ever met the broad.
Chocolynn, That is exactly how my son is being raised. And exactly how it works.
Rapists will figure out a way to get in through your common sense.
The point is… it doesn’t matter how drunk anyone is. IT JUST DOESN’T MATTER.
If you are having sex with someone who is unconscious you are a rapist. PERIOD, POINT BLANK.
There is no ‘grey area’…
The issue with saying things like ‘women need to be taught how to act’ is saying that some action of theirs will lead to getting raped. Which is COMPLETELY F*CKING BOGUS.
Women get raped who wear bikinis. Women get raped who wear burqas. Women get raped who get blitzed. Women get raped who are completely sober.
There is no way to ‘act’ to not get raped. There is a way to act to not rape, however. Hence, we need to keep the focus where it belongs, on the people actually committing the crime.
I’m really incensed by your argument here. This is disgusting enough that I don’t think I even want to keep reading your blog.
I agree. Rape is a man’s crime to commit. There is nothing that women can do dispite popular belief.
I have to call you on this. Anyone can rape and anyone can be raped.
No I have more to add…
So Chump, ahem, excuse me… Champ… what you’re saying is…
If you got drunk after too many Patron shots… and laid your head down to rest and passed out. A guy coming over and sticking his dick in your mouth or anus would be totally justified, amiright? ‘Cus that is what you get for being a drunk?
HOW SICK ARE YOU MAN? F*ck is wrong wit you? SERIOUSLY… SERIOUSLY…
Here you make a statement that is COMPLETELY FALSE AND UNPROVEN:
“Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.”
Who says? What are you statistics? How can you prove this up?
I will back up Champ inasmuch as studies show that alcohol is a weapon very commonly used by rapists to soften up their victims, and studies asking rapists about their crimes have backed this up.
Really, post up the stats then… links.
http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/cache/documents/1348/134851.pdf
Allow me to make clear that I am not blaming the victims. In fact, the study makes clear that rapist predate on women who are less likely to resist, whether they are already drunk or become drunk due to the actions of the rapist. My point is that, yes, alcohol is a factor and is often used as a weapon, full stop.
Wow, didn’t realize the percentages were that high revolving around intoxicated-induced. I’m surprised there wasn’t more discussion on this thread about this study you linked.
Somehow, my post go caught in the moderation box. Allow me to make clear though that my info will be posted shortly.
Oh, here’s one last link for you (Note: TRIGGER MUTHAF***IN WARNING!)
http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf
How dare you suggest women don’t have common sense about these issues? From the time we come out the womb we are bombarded with lessons about prudence and harm reduction…
Still we get raped.
Let me tell you… When I was sexually assaulted… It was while I was sober… by someone who I had been on several dates with… WHO WAS A F*CKING POLICE OFFICER himself. One would think that is the epitome of ‘safety’ but obviously not… HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST I DIDN’T EXERCISE COMMON SENSE. You owe me and every other survivor an apology.
F*CK YOU, F*CK THIS BLOG. I’m out.
I’m terrified that this is the message you took away from the post. I really don’t think that’s the point of the article. You said you were sober–he’s talking about possible situations where people aren’t. He acknowledged that 1 in 5 women get raped too and not all of them were in an identical situation to yours.
The point is that we need to look at ALL factors contributing to this issue and not just a handful if we’re going to effectively change the rate of assault at all.
Stay strong.
this post is rather ridiculous though. i do not blame her or anyone else (esp rape victims) for feeling some kinda way after reading this post. smh.
You know what Liz, as male if something were to happen to Moneypenny or one of my sisters I don’t want to hear any of this sh*t.
as i read this post and the comments…all i kept think about was my daughter. and it KEEPS f*cking me up.
As it should. Teach her (or enroll her in classes that teach her) how to defend herself NOW. Don’t wait until she’s 13, 19 or 31. Teach her now that she has the RIGHT to defend herself and that if someone tries to harm her in any way, she is justified in doing what she must to stay safe.
Parents of little girls needs to drill that into their daughters head now and forget that “don’t be impolite, rude, etc” crap out of the window.
+1
Kids need to also know and understand that an inappropriate touch or convo can come from the very people they trust (teacher, preacher,parent etc). I know we know this as grown folks but I stay talking to my SON about this type of stuff.
Sadly, in today’s society, parents of both sexes need to be hyper-vigilant about teaching their kids what’s ok and what’s not. It seems like more and more little boys are falling victim to abuse and rape. Not sure if that’s caused by an increase in sickos, more little boys being available to them, or what, but don’t forget about your sons. That football and basketball coach you think is a good role model? Watch. Him. Sad, but true.
“As it should. Teach her (or enroll her in classes that teach her) how to defend herself NOW. Don’t wait until she’s 13, 19 or 31. Teach her now that she has the RIGHT to defend herself and that if someone tries to harm her in any way, she is justified in doing what she must to stay safe.”
And this right here is what I would like to believe Champ believes as well. I also think it was part of his intention. Basically that telling one to learn how to prevent and/or taking care of yourself doesn’t mean you are by default, saying the crime is okay. It’s pretty much acknowledging that it occurs. This whole thing actually reminds me of the “abstinence vs birth control education” argument. The whole “but by teaching this you’re saying it’s okay!” concept. I definitely think Champ should’ve worded things carefully (I WILL give him that he tried at least… I could kinda sense him going back and forth on wording while writing this) and/or focused MORE on the crime itself and not so much the victim (because as been said, it’s not like this voice is never said… we hear that voice ALL the time).
+1, Cheekie. That’s exactly why Champ’s post did not truly offend me, though I will admit he could have written things differently.
Simply put, it’s underestimated how many people are actually raped. Just b/c the majority don’t talk about it, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen EVERYDAY.
Excuse me, who voted you Arbiter of Appropriate Emotional Responses?
Oh, you are terrified that I didn’t react well to an extremely condescending and patronizing argument that somehow that exercising common sense will prevent you from getting raped, (the implied argument being that those who got raped didn’t have common sense.)
If there was a list of things that ‘prevent rape’ … I’m pretty sure I had done all of them before my attack. If you think it couldn’t happen to you… you’re wrong. Period. It could. No matter what you did.
Anything I did is not “factor” that results in this problem. The only “factor” that is *relevant* is that my attacker and those like him don’t have respect for other’s bodies or autonomy. That is it.
If Champ truly believed what he said, “I know that rapists are going to rape regardless of how women decide to dress, what (and how much) women decide to drink, where women decide to frequent, and what women decide to do.” Then there is no “BUT”… That is the end of the argument. It shows me he is just parroting what he thinks people want to hear and everything AFTER the BUT is what he really thinks.
“If you think it couldn’t happen to you… you’re wrong. Period. It could. No matter what you did.”
This is something most people don’t understand and won’t understand until it happens to them.
This is so sad but SweetSass is completely right. If you call yourself a ‘very smart brotha’ I’m sure you’re not one for self-reflection, you probably think/act like you have it all figured out (even if you deny that) and probably just feel bad that people didn’t “get” what you were trying to say but you should really, really, really stop and think about this issue.
I don’t think this is an appropriate context to check what someone got out of this post. As a survivor myself, I will say that it is a VERY difficult, cringe-worthy read. And I think the inevitable dozens of other readers who are survivors would agree. NOBODY, no matter the circumstances, should have to accept that what we experienced is a logical consequence of going out, maybe letting your guard down and having a few (or more than a few) drinks. It has taken every ounce of restraint I have not to respond in the same way.
Even if you feel women should take x,y, & z precautions to keep from being raped, can we at least agree that the fact they are asked to is. not. right. It shouldn’t have to be this way. Period.
i had to come out of lurk mode to co-sign.
i have thankfully never been raped, but i have lived in fear of it since i was a little girl. and i don’t know a single woman–not ONE–who has not been raped/assaulted/molested/abused/harassed by a man. this is what the f—-ing problem is.
i wanna say more, b/c this whole entire post is f—ing ENRAGING…like literally i’m pissed the f off.
do you know what you have to do to get raped? NOTHING. just be alive and vulnerable.
UGH…i really need Champ to read a book, or take a class or something. i hope he/you acknowledge the responses of disgust and outrage and take that into account. this is offensive.
Yes, I was so disgusted… and triggered… by this article I literally threw up with rage.
I know this post is going to get heated, so I decided to just post my piece about rape stats.
First, allow me to post some background links:
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
Here are some facts about the typical RAPIST. The studies mentioned in the links about say that about 1 in 16 men have sexually assaulted someone in their lives. However, when you did into the 1 in 16, the numbers become striking. About 1 in 25 men (or 2/3rds of the original bunch of rapists) have committed multiple rapes, with an average of 5.8 and a median of 3. What does this mean in plain English? About 2% of men in America commit roughly 2/3rds of the rapes. Put another way, most women who are victimized are raped by dudes who do it over…and over..and over…and, you get the idea.
What makes it worse is that as much as common sense can protect a woman, your typical rapist looks for women who, well, lack common sense, not to mention deep personal ties. Sad to say, but a rapist is checking for that skinny insecure chic without too many friends the same way stick up kids check for old ladies who walk around with a lot of cash. Interestingly enough, they also keep the violence levels to a minimum to get done what they need. There’s a reason they chose to rape a woman instead of, say, beating the crap out of her, and that’s because they want women to suffer to their core.
Now, what the heck can we do with this info? Think like a rapist and make sure to check for the vulnerable ones. If you know that woman who seems to trust dudes to easily, make sure to hang close. If you know a woman is three sheets to the wind after a shot of Patron, guard her from random dudes pushing up. And dudes, if you see one of your boys is looking at a woman like a vulture looks at a carcass, GET THEM OUT OF DODGE. I’ve been in spots where I’ve had to get women out of a situation because I saw a potential sexual assault going down, and trust me, it’s not my idea of a fun Saturday night.
Take care of yourself and each other fam.
OR knowing this information, we could change the rhetoric and take the onus/blame off victims so that they are more likely to report their attacks and get these sick individuals off the streets
Excellent comment.
I want to emphasize that 97% of attempted rapes are discouraged by physical violence. That’s to say that in 100 cases, if 97 women fight back a rapist changes course and high tails it out of there. Only 3% of rapes were committed in spite of the fact that woman fought back. I will have to post the link to that in a bit. I learned that in my self defense class just this weekend.
The reason is that many rapists do choose someone they think won’t fight back. Just as an abuser chooses someone they think won’t fight back. I’m not saying women need to go out and learn to fight so rape doesn’t happen, but I’m saying that stat might give a bit of hope to those of us who feel discouraged reading this post.
I will post the link later…
Yeah, and how many women are dead (it gets switched to murder) who fought back? Right. If you’ve not been in that situation, please, don’t deign to speak for those of us who have…
Don’t think you have a lock on being attacked and don’t assume I don’t know what I’m talking about as a result of personal experience.
I do.
Sorry, I just got heated. I started taking martial arts recently… but I still know it wouldn’t have helped me… you can’t bring fists to a gun fight. And my attacker was trained in the use of a gun as an off duty police officer and was carrying one.
In that way, I totally understand. There are men who abuse their power and use their training for harm rather than good. And in those instances, fighting may not help. My 97% figure was wrong. There are studies that suggest that in many cases, just as pedophiles do, rapists choose someone due to perceived vunlerability.
Sh*t is just sad and very depressing. And I’m sorry for your experience.
Here’s the link so some stats
http://www.trccmwar.ca/drupal/articles/fighting_back#studies
Thank you for speaking on what MEN can do to prevent rape.
Wow….
We have to stop looking at this as if this is SVU-It’s real life. Women assaulted on the street, by their boy friend, their husband, coworker, or anyone else deserve better than this. The giggling girl gone on Patron is such a small part of what happens.
So why not instill how to treat women properly in the male population? If little boys are told this then maybe, just f***ing maybe it’ll stick. Then hit ‘em with it again when the hit puberty and again until the message is clear.
Upthread someone spoke of women teasing or playing games. This may happen but adults know when sh*t doesn’t feel right. If you as a male are that hammered then maybe you should just deal with the desert d**
k. (Don’t act like this is the first time.) I measure men by their ability to exhibit self-control btw. If you and your boy are running a train and you feel like a camera needs to be used to prevent future criminal prosecution then maybe you should find another space to exist in for the next 10 minutes. (Were you really that interested in seeing what your boys f**k faces look like? Really!?!?)
Yeah precaution on the part of women is great but the onus of the crime is with the dudes. Our ancestors on the plantations were careful. The same goes for the women of Nanking , Berlin, Rwanda, and the Congo. They all are or were being careful just like the some VSS will tonight when she takes the train home from work. It’s the dudes the bulk of the time Champ.
I agree on getting dudes to “get it” in terms of treating women. The one issue with that is that it’s such a small percentage of dudes that actually do it that it would take a major effort to tease out the men who do.
The best thing us men can do is check whoever we see in our midst. We all know a certain number of dudes, and if we check our circle, we can collectively check this rape thing. However, each of us has to do the hard work to determine the random “girl didn’t gimme the digits” hate to something more serious.
“The best thing us men can do is check whoever we see in our midst”
I agree that this is important. We really don’t check each other enough on our bullsh*t.
Thank you both for this!
*e-hugs*
Hi,
I’m a First time “replyer”
Without having any knowledge on the statistics of rape. I think its safe to assume that its a small minority of men that participate in such a vile act. Because of this I think its so hard to educate men on the topic of rape. We don’t get it and firmly believe we won’t. Why? cause if its not even an acceptable thought in my mind, how can it be even discussed.
And to those circumstantial instances. Majority of the time they are avoidable all together. If I’m so in tuned with the individual to go forth and sleep with them. How can I not notice hey…she not really into this…Maybe I should 1.Change Positions 2.Go Harder 3. ….ummmm….STOP
I salute you for trying Champ but your point, you fumbled.
As a few already said, rape is about power, control. Being a responsible self aware person, in some cases, won’t stop a rape. In some cases, being self aware & responsible makes you a target-the Delta’s that were raped in Texas comes to mind.
Education of children early & continuing that education throughout a lifetime is necessary. An across the board no means no, no touching without consent,
*Not used to this new tablet…sorry*
I was saying-education that neither gender is entitled to assault or disrespect another gender.
I honestly can halfway dig what Zerlina Maxwell is saying (as well as many of the VSS). They don’t want to hear about more things they can do to prevent the crime, they aren’t the ones committing the crime. I can dig that. Philosophically speaking my approach is different, but I can understand where they’re coming from. It’s not unreasonable.
Where I call bull$h!t is her proposed solution. The solution is for men to get educated? Really? Is that what the answer is? Blanket Awareness? Cause that’s worked so well for things like drug abuse and safe sex.
If you are insulted by being told you need to be educated about how to prevent a crime against you how am I not supposed to be offended by being told I need to be educated on how to prevent a crime that I’m not committing? And I resent being asked to accept the entire weight of some men’s actions as my own personal responsibility and/or guilt. If you all aren’t responsible for hoes and gold diggers I’m not going to be responsible for b!tch a$$ n!gg@s and rapists. THAT is unreasonable.
Since this can of worms is open, how exactly would I intervene in a rape? If as statistics suggest, most of them occur between acquaintances what is the likelihood that I’ll be in the room, the building, the neighborhood or even the city when it happens? If as statistics suggest, most rapes go unreported, how can I shun and rebuke the rapists when he goes unidentified? I mean do you all think we all have this one dude in our social circle that we secretly know is a rapist but we keep him around cause he tells good jokes? I get that you all can’t tell who is a potential rapist just by looking at him – we can’t either. That’s part of the reason why I think crime prevention should be focused on women. We know who all the potentials victims are, we have no clue who the perpetrators could be. It could be someone we consider a good dude, and would never suspect.
I would also note that this often the way we approach much crime prevention. We don’t go to potential criminals and say don’t be criminals, we warn the potential victims of what’s out there. We don’t go to the hood and say don’t be a drug dealer, and ostracize anyone that is, and interrupt their drug sales, we don’t put the onus of all drugs on everyone in the hood, we tell children (the potential victims) to stay away from drugs. Is this also an example of us blaming the victim?
“Newsflash: men don’t decide to become rapists because they spot a woman dressed like a video vixen or because a girl has been sexually assertive.”
Newsflash: if rapists aren’t deterred by the law, they won’t be deterred by education and awareness. They’re not going to stop doing what they’re doing because I un-friended them on Facebook and stopped following them on Twitter. Some people are just f#cked up. They’re born sick and there’s nothing anyone can do about it except incarcerate them.
And lastly, I have seen a number of comments dismissing Champ’s example of a young girl guzzling Patron because it doesn’t represent the primary mode in which someone is sexually assaulted. Somehow folks glided right over Zerlina’s suggestion that if a woman has had too much to drink that a young man should forego having sex with her. So we can ask men to be cognizant about alcohol consumption but not women?
Tell you what, I am not trying to be cavalier to anyone’s past experiences on this subject, I suspect feelings might be intense on this, but if the victim’s shouldn’t be shouldering the blame (and they shouldn’t), neither should the non-perpetrators. I’ll stop here to avoid causing any more inflammation than I already have. Champ I wish I had your e-mail before you made this post. I would have told you not to do it, and I think I might have convinced you not to.
Real talk though, a woman who drinks to the point of not being able to consent to sex has a whole host of vulnerabilities, period. While they do need to get their act together at some point, WHILE THEY’RE TORE UP probably isn’t the time to start. The best thing you can do is arrange for a cab ride for them and hope for the best.
So we can ask men to be cognizant about alcohol consumption but not women?
For some reason I think more ppl here have had one too many drinks before. Even us with vagina’s. I don’t think asking a man not to have sex with an inebriated women is such a daunting task.I’d hope not. I’m also going to try and ignore you comparing rape victims to drug users, since drug users usually have a choice to use drugs. So warning people not to do drugs, is a completely different animal than asking women to not get raped.
What you don’t seem to understand with the ire of Champ’s example is this veritable hierarchy of rape victims. At the top are the innocent women who have done all they can to not get raped. They check their drinks, they lock all their doors, they are keenly aware of their surroundings at all times, they aren’t social drinkers etc., and still get raped. For some of you these victims are the only ones worthy of the title of victimhood.
Then at the bottom there are the women in Champ’s example who may have gotten drunk on the 1st or 13th date.
What I find astonishing about Champ, and you, and all who are perplexed at that example is that so many of us may have been that woman who’s had 1 or too many drinks before. Maybe even on a date. We’re human. Are we advocating all drunken women run into a bar full of men and expect the best?
No. What we are opposed to is the notion that somehow our state, one that many adults experience and socially participate in is , is somehow a voluntary precursor to rape.
What’s mind boggling is the ignorance. How hard is it to figure with the large number of women who have been raped in this country, that a rape victim who may have gotten a little tipsy freshmen year, and woke up realizing she’d been raped reads this? If you have a majorly female readership, the chances of them having been raped is high. In fact the comments themselves should indicate this.
You DONT think she hasn’t spent the remainder of her life blaming herself for getting raped? What about the woman who may have had a drink while nervous on a first date, and ends up the victim of date rape reading this? Imagine for a moment if you can, how she would feel if that’s possible.
The fact is women are already taught this. We are alllll aware of the “precautionary measures”, however how much has rape subsided as a result of this common sense education? Some of us have already had to learn this the hard way, and some of us have learned how powerless we really are, no matter how many precautions we take.Why do you all feel as if this is radical and suppressed education? And since once again the majority of rapes against women are committed by men she knows, riddle me how we protect ourselves from friends, partners, spouses, boyfriends,and neighbors we otherwise trust?
I have so many issues with your statement and others like it. “Preventative” behaviour would mean that everyone would have to shut themselves in their rooms with firearms. The people who get mugged on the streets? Well, what were they doing out, wearing jewellery and carrying wallets? Children who get bullied? Parents should have home-schooled. Got hit by a car? Shouldn’t have been out driving…
You see how silly victim-blaming is? The problematic behaviour is NOT ever with the victim of a rape. She can be held responsible if she falls and hits her head, or gives herself alcohol poisoning, but not if SOMEONE ELSE chooses to inflict an act of violence upon her. A rapist can be compared to any other criminal – we don’t allow murderers to go free if they kill someone who has been drinking, we don’t allow thieves to plead that their victims had been drinking, and we certainly wouldn’t have any truck with terrorism based upon drinking habits.
The responsibility for a rape or any act of violence lies 100% with the perpetrator.
oh my freaking god…i really cannot take this…
how many times do you see dudes get drunk off their A.S.Ses…they’re hurling, stumbling, bumping into stuff…getting into fights, ripping off their shirts (maybe only white guys go that far)…they may get kicked out the club or arrested…but they don’t freaking get RAPED…
so now it’s cool for a dude to get sloshed but a woman should know that if SHE wants to get trashed, then if she gets sexually assaulted or is past the point of consent then it’s here fault…?????????????
get the f outta here
Yes, rape is not a ‘consequence’ of being drunk. It’s a consequence of being victimized by a person that doesn’t understand boundaries and doesn’t respect other people’s rights to consent.
May the church say AMEN to DQ!!!
Best points:
“If you are insulted by being told you need to be educated about how to prevent a crime against you how am I not supposed to be offended by being told I need to be educated on how to prevent a crime that I’m not committing? And I resent being asked to accept the entire weight of some men’s actions as my own personal responsibility and/or guilt. If you all aren’t responsible for hoes and gold diggers I’m not going to be responsible for b!tch a$$ n!gg@s and rapists. THAT is unreasonable.”
“We don’t go to potential criminals and say don’t be criminals, we warn the potential victims of what’s out there.”
“Newsflash: if rapists aren’t deterred by the law, they won’t be deterred by education and awareness.”
“Somehow folks glided right over Zerlina’s suggestion that if a woman has had too much to drink that a young man should forego having sex with her. So we can ask men to be cognizant about alcohol consumption but not women?”
Alladis, DQ. Alladis.
Hey Champ, when are you going to make the pamphlet to send to murder victim’s families…. “10 Easy Steps not to get Brutally Killed by a Serial Killer.” I think the public needs to know. You know… to prevent murders because people don’t have the good sense to keep from getting killed. #deepbitingsarcasm
YES!
I think just having this conversation is proof positive set alarm a lot need to be learned a lot and needed to be done , I know a lot of you guys a very emotional over this but if you read the replies any answer ,I believe you educated some some brothers and sisters no matter if you look at the subject of being out of a clean glass or a dirty glass problem with the subject is the both glasses will cut you
James Brown had it right when he said it’s a man’s world. When it comes to dating, relationships and safety, this is especially true.
I hope men read what I’m about to say and are a little enlightened about the woman’s perspective:
1. Every first date for a woman is a little scary. There’s a strong chance that whoever you’re dating is stronger and bigger than you and there’s also a chance that he will choose to take what he wants from you. But we take this risk often, because otherwise, we’d never be able to date anyone.
2. Women’s natural defense mechanisms are often seen as rude or elicit a truly negative response. “Why can’t you smile girl?… You look so much better when you smile!… Oh you can’t say what’s up to a brother?… Why you walking so fast?… ” And those are the nice things men say. Often women are accused of being rude, mean, or downright cold and nasty because we must (YES WE MUST) wear a hard exterior that says to the world “Don’t eff with me.” Any deviation from the Mad Black Woman face is seen as “She’ll come around” Face.
3. Everything you said is common knowledge, Champ. What she shared… not so much. Most women were told by some woman or even a man in their life, “Don’t dress like a hoe/don’t get so wasted/etc”. The world has done a great job of informing women on what we can do to prevent forest fires and rapes. This article provided no new information.
I think you had great intentions, Champ. Forgive my cheekiness, but I’m just not sure you’re the right voice for this conversation. I’m not sure how many men could be, to be honest. You (and other men) could be more effective at preventing rape by mentoring 1 or 2 boys than by writing this article read by thousands.
“2. Women’s natural defense mechanisms are often seen as rude or elicit a truly negative response. “Why can’t you smile girl?… You look so much better when you smile!… Oh you can’t say what’s up to a brother?… Why you walking so fast?… ” And those are the nice things men say. Often women are accused of being rude, mean, or downright cold and nasty because we must (YES WE MUST) wear a hard exterior that says to the world “Don’t eff with me.” Any deviation from the Mad Black Woman face is seen as “She’ll come around” Face.” Can you please say this one more time for everyone to understand? It isn’t that we are always witches we just don’t want to place ourselves in uncomfortable situations. Men just don’t get it.
I believe that women are already being educated on how not to get raped. From parents telling us how to dress, to campus police giving safety seminars discussing walking in groups, not drinking too much, and self defense classes.
I agree with the Ebony article, women hear enough about how not to get raped and its not effective. Its a man’s crime to commit so prevention efforts should be directed at them.
I see Champs point. Bottomline, educating and holding men accountable is not mutually exclusive of pointing out potentially preventitive steps a woman could take to avoid questionable situations. Both are needed and can be accomplished. I don’t understand what’s so hard to get about Champ’s point.
No on is confused by his well-advertised point. Women are just a little confused as to why Champ is pointing out that the sky is blue to people who a. already know and b. are in little position to adjust it.
Also, it’s a little suspect when the knee jerk reaction to Maxwell’s post is “That’s cool and I’m a let you finish but… women need to have common sense.”
Not cool, bro. I don’t need white people telling me how I can avoid racism by not traveling to the South and I don’t need men telling me how I can avoid rape by exercising “common sense.”
“Not cool, bro. I don’t need white people telling me how I can avoid racism by not traveling to the South and I don’t need men telling me how I can avoid rape by exercising “common sense.””
I get your point. But the result of the train of thought (right or wrong) ends up with men not participating meaningfully in the discussion. If you’re telling me my perspective doesn’t matter to you, chances are the debate is over. You stand on your side, I stand on my side and we don’t realize we’re 90% in agreement. I’m not a woman and I don’t know what it’s like to live in fear of being raped. Ultimately, all any man can do is attempt to empathize, but the men who are participating in the rape discussion are 9 times out of 10 not the perpetrators. It sounds like what you’re saying is, “accept what I’m saying and agree or shut up.” Women may not intend that message, but that’s how its received.
” It sounds like what you’re saying is, “accept what I’m saying and agree or shut up.” Women may not intend that message, but that’s how its received.”
And this is normally why men keep quiet about topics like this for the most part. We gotta at least try to work on a solution, but people are ULTRA-SENSITIVE to any inkling of victim blaming so the problem remains unsolved. The catch-22 is that any solution that involves altering behavior on the victim’s part (since we don’t know who the perpetrator will be and most likely won’t get through to them at this point) will automatically offend and set off a traumatized or empathetic woman who the issue hits close to home with. At the very least we need to be able to talk about preventing this without this same sequence of events occurring every time men and women try to talk about rape and its prevention
Ok, so when it happens to your sister, or daughter, or wife, or mother let’s sit down and have an open discussion on how you could have educated her better. Shut the hell up. On some topics Right is right and wrong is wrong. This is one of them. Maybe next I’ll sit down with the klan and have an open discussion where everyone can express their opinions on black people freely without feeling shut down or a victim of ultra-sensitivity.
Your analogy is flawed. We as men are trying to have a constructive discussion about a very hard subject. We may have some information that is flawed. When we say something wrong, and you get emotional about it, the discussion stops. Help us to help you. Remember you’re having this conversation with guys who already know rape is wrong. We agree that rapists are horrible horrible people.
Using your analogy, it would be like me sitting down with the NAACP and getting emotional with them when they say, yes, racism is wrong, yes the Klan shouldn’t be doing those things, but come on dog, stop whistling at white women.
I should be able to whistle at whoever I want without fearing for my life. Yes, that is true, but that doesn’t mean some asshole in a sheet won’t think I need to be dragged behind a truck for it.
Not all white people are klansmen. Not all men are rapists. Be mad at the rapists. We might be ignorant, we might be misinformed, but thats a fixable condition.
Help us fix it.
Ok, RG, tell me how I could’ve prevented being sexually assaulted? I was assaulted by a guy I was dating, who I *knew* and trusted, who was not any type of stereotypical creeper but was rather a nice, jovial, fun-loving type of brotha… who was also a police officer. When the attack took place, it was after going to a restaurant in early evening (not evening late out). I had a single glass of wine with dinner. We hadn’t had sex at that point in our relationship, (6-7 dates in). Please enlighten me as to what I did wrong? Existed? Was born a woman? Dates men? What?
@Sweetsass- That’s awful that that happened to you. I’m really angry over here thinking about the fact that he must’ve been setting that up from the beginning, because on the outside ppl would definitely be hesitant to think that someone you were dating would be inclined to do that, especially if he has the personality you say he has. It’s so effed up, and I shouldn’t say this, but it sounds like something a lot of police officers would do. It’s so hard to get them actually arrested that they abuse their power constantly. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I wanna ask you a serious question, and if you don’t have an answer I understand, because it seems that none of us do. You ask what could you have done, and I have nothing…so I ask, what could WE (society) have done to either A) prevent that situation from happening B) make it easier for you to tell your story and at least try to get him punished for his crime C) scare ppl like him so much that they aren’t bold enough to try some f*cked sh*t like that in the first place? These are all serious questions and anybody with an answer is welcome to take a shot at them
I will give you an answer. If we as a society will stop blaming the victim, then more women will feel its not their fault. That will result in more rapes being reported. When we stop blaming women, we will get prosecutors willing to take date rape cases to trial because they will get juries that won’t be thinking “what did she do to get raped” and let him go free. When we stop blaming women, there will be a real penalty for rape by someone you know. That will act as a deterrent to many potential rapists. First step? STOP BLAMING WOMEN.
Stop blaming women? Ok. That’s an easy enough first step. I think we all took that away from this discussion anyway. Anybody got anything else? (Thanks for answering the question btw)
Do you want to know why I didn’t report or press charges… well first things first… being that my attacker was a police officer I didn’t exactly feel safe walking up to his place of work and making an accusation. Also, he knows where I live and has a gun. I was pretty postive at that time… as with racial profiling, etc… other officers would immediately close ranks around him and say he is SUCH a nice guy… would NEVER do that… I’m lying. I also didn’t have a scrap of evidence outside of my word vs. his and you damn near need your assault on videotape to even get through to a prosecutor. I am a very sophiscated person, I was in law school at the time too. I knew my case didn’t have a snowflakes chance in hell of being taken serious and I was ready to rock my universe upside down as I’ve seen other victims who do choose to report. I wasn’t ready for the onslaught of victim blaming that I see victims routinely face. I wasn’t ready to see who are my real friends and who secretly harbor ideas about me or would turn on me. I didn’t even trust my family with the information because if I get blamed for small things as the oldest child I’ve grown accustom to, I don’t know how they’d react to a big thing. I didn’t risk it.
So I buried it. Life goes on.
Sister, I hear you. I know. Even if these bone headed men can’t read or understand. I hear you.
stuff like this honeslty scares the bejesus out of me as my daughter gets older.
You should be scared about it now too. The child molesters are trusted people as well. Your relatives, your friends, the teachers, the pastors, the activity coaches . . .
You revealed how little you know about a female’s perspective and experiences living without male privilege from a back and forth we had on one of my first comments on this blog under another screen name. Do educate yourself, so you can educate your daughter, your nephews, the next man, and whoever else.
“I wasn’t ready for the onslaught of victim blaming that I see victims routinely face. I wasn’t ready to see who are my real friends and who secretly harbor ideas about me or would turn on me. I didn’t even trust my family with the information because if I get blamed for small things as the oldest child I’ve grown accustom to, I don’t know how they’d react to a big thing. I didn’t risk it.”
Speak!!!
“So I buried it. Life goes on.”
And yet, at the same time… it doesn’t.
i don’t think anyone here disagrees with taking precautions. conversely, it’s been drilled in our freaking heads since we were old enough to listen: where on your body you shouldn’t be touched, and who to tell if you are. where you aren’t supposed to go by yourself or after a certain time, what you aren’t supposed to wear, the barriers you’re supposed to maintain firmly in place when getting to know or dating a man WE won’t send “mixed signals” and he won’t “get the wrong idea”, to never leave our drinks unattended, to know that if we choose to go out and get inebriated we could very well be inviting rape or assault into our lives (& conversely, if we choose to engage in consensual relations, we invite the “sl_t” label, but that’s another topic)
we have accepted the fact that in this world, if we do choose to go out at night, alone, and happen to be accosted–inevitably someone will wonder why we didn’t “know better”.
the point is that if men had these things DRILLED IN THEIR HEADS about how NOT to be a rapist, molester or assaulter of women (or men), and how to keep your homies from being the same, & how to be absolutely sure what’s going down is consensual, then we would have much less of a problem. yeah those violent serial rapists would still be out there, but those are not the majority of sexual assaults anyway.
the fact that so many guys are playing defense against this is honestly disgusting to me…i’m glad i’m not single and looking b/c this would definitely turn me off from the male population.
2. Understand that rapists are often viewed as society’s “good dudes”, and that they set up the whole scenario. They know you well enough to know you take precautions, and they know how to bypass those precautions.
Men tend to talk about rapists as if they’re the crazy deranged dude that everyone knows is a rapist who chases after drunk women at the club.
He can be straight-laced, intelligent, kind to his mama, and still be a rapist.
I took a self-defense class taught by a cop last year. The cop asked us to tell him of situations where we were unable to protect ourselves, and said he’d teach us how to get out of their hold to get away.
Even though he was able to teach us how to get away from situations like, if a man’s knees and weight are on our shoulders and his hands are around our throat, he made the point of saying the ultimate goal is to survive.
Even he didn’t promise us we wouldn’t get raped if we took precautions. He knew better than to bullshit us.
How do you fight off someone who knows you, knows your physical strengths and weaknesses already? This is why I want to become a registered gun owner.
I don’t think you will get an answer to that. Some men’s minds cannot wrap around anything that doesn’t end in, “it’s the woman’s fault”. Blame their enfeebled thin corpus collusion. I can’t come up with another explanation.
I’m sorry to hear that. My overall point is what is wrong with teaching both awareness, accountability, responsibility to men AND also endorsing preventitive behavior. I’m not saying prevention will keep rape from occuring across the board, but even if it only prevents 5% of cases isnt it worth it. How is that victim blaming? Noone is saying, “she deserves it” even if she does participate in more risky behavior. I’m not even making that jump. The point is that one strategy is not mutually exclusive of the other. Its no different than exercising AND eating right. Could I just eat right and lose weight? Sure. But including exercise adds another chip in my favor.
Yes it is mutually exclusive because there is an overwhelming bias towards making the woman responsible. Every time you tell er be careful, you reinforce it. Every time it is reinforced, your 5% prevention is wiped out by the 5% of men (or more )who are encouraged by the fact that she probably won’t report it cause she knows she will be blamed.
ok here’s an example
let’s say i’ve had a drink or two. i’m at the club. i’m grinding on a dude and he’s aroused. i might let his hands slide down some places. then i go do the same thing to another dude. i got on my freakum dress and my stilettos. there’s alcohol in my system but i’m under the legal limit, so i decide i’m ready to go home before my girls are, and i walk to my car, a block or 2 away from the club, by myself. my girls are way drunker than i am so they are not able to make the decision to accompany to my car to make sure i’m aight.
unless i’m wearing a sign on my back that says “come get this kitty cat”, why tf is this risky behavior? i understand we live in a dangerous world, but i can’t even leave the club by myself????? In Detroit, around Christmas, young women were getting murdered in pairs…so now I can’t even just hang out w/my girl, there have to be at least 3 of us together?
this is why victim-blaming just does NOT work. it does nothing to address the actual issue. i know a woman who was raped on her front porch by her ex-boyfriend…what was she supposed to do, move after they broke up??? like this ish is just completely ridiculous.
You actually said it. We live in a dangerous world. I’ll take it out of the rape context to articulate my point. If I go to the club, have some drinkgs, but under the legal limit, walk out to my car and get robbed, it’s not my fault I got held up BUT one could argue if I wasn’t at the club or had I been less under the influence I wouldn’t have got robbed under the former or might not have got robbed under the latter. Let me repeat, it’s not my fault I got robbed, but the issue of cause and effect is objective. Not there=Not robbed. Should I be able to drink, leave the club late, head to the car? Hell yeah. But just cause I should be able to do that doesn’t mean some nutcase out there will allow me to, so have two pre-crime preventitive options: (1)not to be in that situation, i.e. not go to the club, or (2) alternatively if I want to risk it, be more aware. That awareness; however, does not guarantee I’ll remain safe, it just means I’m doing everything in my power to stack the deck in my favor. Ultimately, I might still get robbed and it will not have been my fault. Would you call telling someone to avoid a certain club because of its propensity for shootings victim blaming? I don’t think you would.
This is definitely a subject which probably can’t be discussed without emotion. Most of the comments I’ve read from men, with the exception of a few, seem to acknowledge men need to be dealt with and take more responsibility on the issue of rape. Fellas, bottomline the best stratgey is to police ourselves and stay mute when discussing this topic with women because anything other than 100% agreement will be considered an indicator of a predisposition to raping women.
“My overall point is what is wrong with teaching both awareness, accountability, responsibility to men AND also endorsing preventitive behavior.”
It’s nothing wrong with it. It’s already being done, too. Just like how there are classes to try to prevent being attacked on any level (self-defense). I think the problem lies when this ish is brought up AFTER the fact, therefore taking away attention from the fact that they are still a victim at the end of the day. Taking attention away from punishing the attacker.
Why should we have to do preventative measures to not get raped? Why should we have to prevent walking in the morning, afternoon, and evening to not get raped jogging? Why should we have to not go on single dates to not avoid being raped? Why should we, and any of our female friends, have to cross the street when a group of males approaches?
Why can’t a group of men look at a woman respectfully without leering or jeering at her, making her uncomfortable enough to cross the street? Why can’t a man respect a woman’s space and body enough to not force himself into or onto her? Why can’t men know the signs of a potential rape in process and jump in to assist a woman, not question her logic or walk on by?
I should be able to wear what I please, walk where I please, and not be accosted or raped. The sad fact of it is, if I were to do those things, someone, somewhere would blame me and call my moral character and intelligence into question. The implication that “boys will be boys” and “she coulda, shoulda, woulda” does not help me not get raped. All it does is make me either ashamed or embarrassed to tell anyone, which lets a monster go free to do it to someone else. Utopia does not exist; preventative measures are not always enough.
Girls get raped at work, girls get raped at school, and girls get raped mostly by men they know; Champ’s point isn’t lost on anybody, but it seems rather short sighted or not enough for us who have been molested, raped or otherwise assaulted.
A woman should be able to do all the things you’ve listed. We agree there. But unfortunately there are any number of sociopaths out here who quite frankly don’t care what anyone should be able to do or what’s right. No matter the penalty perpetrators of this sort of crime will continue about their effed up lives. Taking that into account, I’d still like to do as much as possible to prevent rape from happening. Should we teach young men to respect women more? Yep. Should we be strict with our rape related penalties? yep. Should we educate boys and men about rape stats, info, etc.? Hell yes. But guess what, all of those steps do nothing to prevent a sociopath from doing whatever he’s going to do. Now, will prevention work everytime in the case of a man who is plotting, scheming, planning a rape? Not all the time. But does that mean because it wont work all the time we should just say to hell with teaching preventitive behaviors? I don’t accept that and I don’t think that’s victim blaming, I think that’s doing whatever is necessary to keep the rape from happening in the first place.
why don’t we just put all men on an isolated island and never let them leave without permission? or better yet just eradicate men from the planet, entirely? this would ensure like a 95% prevention rate. how bout we just do that?
So you’re equating teaching preventiive measures to eradicating men entirely from the planet? You feel as if those are on similar levels?
“why don’t we just put all men on an isolated island and never let them leave without permission? or better yet just eradicate men from the planet, entirely? this would ensure like a 95% prevention rate. how bout we just do that?”
sounds like a plan, i think we can all fit on Austrailia
“I see Champs point. Bottomline, educating and holding men accountable is not mutually exclusive of pointing out potentially preventitive steps a woman could take to avoid questionable situations. Both are needed and can be accomplished. I don’t understand what’s so hard to get about Champ’s point.”
RG, the point most of us are making is that for far too long, folks have ONLY been pointing out preventative steps woman can take…that was what Maxwell’s article was saying. But since the act is ultimately in the hands of the assailant (not the victim), we should do a bit (A LOT) more educating and holding men accountable.
I think other commenters have already made the point that I would have, as women we are constantly educated on what not to do/how to prevent/how to defend ourselves from potential rape. Even still Champ, while I do not agree with your viewpoint, I appreciate the fact that you are attempting to have a conversation about it. In terms of the scenario you highlighted, the girl having one too many shots of Patron, maybe if more men (predators non-withstanding) were able to have an honest conversation with their sisters/mothers/aunts/friends about the time a man raped them when they were drunk (because unfortunately this has happened to your sisters/mothers/aunts/friends and you just don’t know about it), it would be easier for them to choose to send that girl on her way, rather than take her home.
I don’t feel like reading another article this morning…
One couldn’t prevent r.ape anymore than one could prevent any other physical attack or a robbery. I think r.ape is being put out there to spark more controversy but it is an attack; any person can be attacked.
I don’t think the sentiments expressed in your post (the idea of telling people how to act regarding situations they really can’t control) are limited to women. I’ve heard men and women scolded after being robbed for wearing too much jewelry or looking too flashy. Victims’ behavior is called into question at times. The scrutiny she is suggesting r.ape victims face is the same scrutiny many victims of crime face. Subsequently, sound advice like not getting p!ssy drunk, staying in groups, not walking alone is applicable for all people and does not reflect condemnation of r.ape victims.
” I don’t think the sentiments expressed in your post (the idea of telling people how to act regarding situations they really can’t control) are limited to women. I’ve heard men and women scolded after being robbed for wearing too much jewelry or looking too flashy. Victims’ behavior is called into question at times. The scrutiny she is suggesting r.ape victims face is the same scrutiny many victims of crime face. Subsequently, sound advice like not getting p!ssy drunk, staying in groups, not walking alone is applicable for all people and does not reflect condemnation of r.ape victims.”
OMG! Thank you for this! It would sound so much more like an *sshole statement to make if I said it, but you’re soooo right about that. Not that that makes it any better, but I at least want people to take a step back and realize that it’s not about blaming women all the time or not holding men accountable, but what can we really tell someone who’s gonna rob or rape someone that they don’t already know? Especially if we don’t even know this person. They know if they’re caught and convicted they’re going to prison and they know how prisoners feel about rape and what they like to do to rapists, yet they still commit the crime, so of course we’ll turn our attention to the one who will listen, the victim. I can totally see how this might come off as victim blaming, but it’s often just trying to contribute to prevention, no matter how useless it might actually be in practice. We need better systems in place, nobody’s arguing that. In fact, I’m all ears about what systems we need to be installing, cause it’s really really f*cked up that in 2012 ppl could get away with this ish with all the d*mn technology and supposed societal advancement. Smh, but yeah it’s usually not about blaming the victim, it’s about dealing with the person you can actually talk to…I totally get the frustration with this more or less futile effort. Again, thanks WIP
You truly don’t get it
@WC- Sigh, apparently you don’t either. Does WIP get it? What should my thoughts have been? Is the only thing I can do agree with everything every woman says about this topic 100%? Because I do agree 95% but I do think there’s a small blind spot in the responses to what ppl are accusing us of feeling/saying. I agree that talking about what she should’ve done to prevent it to the actual victim (after the fact) is pretty pointless and insulting (I even agree that this mentality usually contributes to the problem), but that part (talking about how the victim may have avoided it) isn’t always about patriarchy and sexism, that happens when we can’t get to the perpetrator to release our frustrations on him.
That’s why she mentioned that we do this for other crimes as well. Hell when I used to get items stolen my mom would lay into me about putting stuff away and not letting company around certain things. I used to get mad because she was actin like I was the one that committed the crime, but she had a point, and she couldn’t say anything to the thief because we didn’t know who he was, and couldn’t control that individual even if we did, all we could do would be to report him (if we actually knew who he was). I know those are two entirely different scenarios, but the point is ppl’s first reaction is to wonder what could’ve been done differently to decrease the likelihood of this happening. It’s not so much sexism or victim blaming as much as it is a natural reaction from a species that has gotten this far based on their inclination to problem solve…We need better solutions than what we have though, so I recorded the first one (stop blaming victims)…what else we got people?
When it comes to rape, getting hold of the victim and saying shoulda coulda never helps. Ever. Ever. Ever. Because when you stop with the knee jerk emotional reaction of being mad cause you can’t talk to the rapist, maybe then, you engage your BRAIN and realize your shoulda coulda is worthless. It only makes you feel better and her worse. It would not have prevented that rape because that rapist would have figured out another way to get her. She cannot prevent being vulnerable to all men at all times. Get it?
WC: Correct me if I’m wrong, but is the disconnect in what is perceived as post-preventitive counseling to a woman who has already been a victim of rape? I think I understand how this discussion is looked at as victim blaming post-rape, but how is it victim blaming pre-rape? Do you see a distinction?..Real questions by the way, no sarcasm or rhetorical emphasis.
*As a survivor* I can tell you how this is victim-blaming….
Because all my life I was aware of tips of ‘how to stay out of danger’ ie:
-Don’t drink too much (I never have)
-Be with ‘good folks’ (stuck in educated, upper middle class circles)
-Don’t go around in dangerous areas (always lived in fancy parts of town)
-Don’t look ‘fast’ (I’ve always dressed modestly)
-Stranger danger (do all that… meet in public on first dates, don’t get into cars with new guys I meet, etc.)
DESPITE DOING ALLLLLL OF THIS… I was assaulted. After I was assault it took me a whole week to even comprehend what happened to me. I was in denial. It took me three years, a mountain of self-loathing/blame, and fifty lbs gained to realize… I didn’t do anything wrong. But in my head it was drilled… do these things and you won’t get hurt… I got hurt, therefore, I did something wrong.
I don’t think I’m arguing you could have done anything other than not going on a date with a guy who gave you any indication he was a savage. You’re not psychic and I wouldnt ask you to be. Would preventitive actions be accurate in 100% of situtaions? Nope. But they might in some. I don’t know. I’m probably just not articulating my point in a sufficiently coherent or sensitive enough manner.
Your ‘preventative measures’ don’t do shit … because none of them address the occurence or formation or enabling of rapists. Every woman out there could stay at home all day with a shot gun pointed at the door and the # of rapists out there would still be the same. And women would still get raped.
In societies where women are covered head to toe with a burqa, aren’t allowed to go out in public without a male escourt, cannot hold jobs or be anywhere alone… WOMEN STILL GET RAPED. CAN YOU WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND THAT?
I don’t think we can ever really know how many potential assaults we avoided by using our good judgement. So our good judgement will never get credit for the times it actually kept us safe. I don’t think anyone is suggesting women get r.aped b/c of bad judgement. We know that isn’t the case.
“I don’t think we can ever really know how many potential assaults we avoided by using our good judgement. So our good judgement will never get credit for the times it actually kept us safe. I don’t think anyone is suggesting women get r.aped b/c of bad judgement. We know that isn’t the case.”
Thank you! Certain things only get noticed when sh*t goes wrong. It’s not the victims fault when it happens, but it’s to a non-victim’s credit when she avoids a traumatic situation like this. No way for us to tally how many have been avoided but I think if so many women weren’t practicing good judgment the numbers would be astronomically higher. It’s just a frustrating aspect of society at this point. We don’t have a cure for cancer or AIDS and we don’t have a go-to prevention plan for rape. It sux, but it’s reality right now
because when your “prevention” techniques become things like telling women what they can’t wear, you’re holding women accountable for the neuroses that men have.
it’s 1 thing to say “hey, it’s probably not safe to go jogging in a mini-skirt at 3am” and say “these are the things that can happen.” but it’s a very fine (perhaps indistinguishable) line between that, and saying you know if your dumb @$s goes jogging at 3am, you’re gonna get raped (and it’s going to be all your fault b/c i told you beforehand).
that’s really the bottom line.
i don’t think this is comparable to being robbed/mugged b/c you can’t compare material possessions to getting violated physically and emotionally. even if you’re beaten and robbed, it’s different when someone is only trying to rob you of your self, vs. something you have.
I don’t think we should do “my assault is better than yours”. I don’t think being robbed alone is comparable, but physical attacks can be very violent and traumatic without being $exual.
” She cannot prevent being vulnerable to all men at all times. Get it? ”
Exactly.
But nothing can prevent that. It doesn’t matter how much policing men do of themselves, you’ll always have some savage out there willing to do these things. Does that mean we should stop policing ourselves? No, but no strategy is 100% effective. You do realize that no man on here as taken any of the suggestions by the VSSs on hear and disagreed. Let me restate that, we are in agreement with every recommendation you have. And my guess is that this is becoming a circular argument because many have acknowledged prevention is already being taught.
Puh-leese… men don’t try to police themselves at all. If a man who has a tight group of friends… is accused of ANYTHING… his friends first instincts are not to side with the victim or even remain neutral. They have his back. She was a ho, she was asking for it, anything to get over the shock to their system that homeboy might be *that dude.* They close ranks.
People’s first reaction when something bad/terrible happens to other people is what they could have done different for it not to have happened…its a weird wiring people have but its still wrong, when my sister got a terrible bike accident my mum’s first reaction to my sisters sobbing voice over the phone was “why were you on the bike in the first place”? in my mind i was like how is that supposed to help the situation at hand, it does not. I do not get why folks like blaming people, human beings are mortals they make questionable decisions, human is to error, we should all be about correcting,helping, guiding but not blame..
It’s really too emotional of a topic to get into. I’ve been assaulted by people I knew. As stats and this blog show, many women have. I think the block is a little hot today.
I’m reminded of a news story of a young girl down in Texas. She was at a party with older people and was raped. When she told, or when it was found out, the whole town turned on her and asked “Where were her parents? What was she doing there? What was she wearing?” barely focusing on the fact that three or more young men (older than her, I believe she was barely in her teens and these boys were in high school and on varsity teams) from the same community did this to her. She started getting death threats and called names in the street, for something she couldn’t have controlled.
I’m reminded of a story I think in California where a girl was raped on school property by multiple people in an open area and other men and women either walked by or stood and watched but did nothing to stop it.
As a strong willed woman I am scared of it happening to me. I realize it’s about power and control and being weak to someone else’s will and I’m thankful that it hasn’t yet been me, but mournful from all the stories I read in the news, all the stories I hear first hand from friends and associates.
Telling a woman to not do xyz, is not going to prevent a man from raping her. Teaching boys early what rape is and how it effects a woman could. Teaching boys how to properly channel their emotions without exerting control/dominance over a woman could. But we can’t even get proper sex education for our children, let alone a class on rape. And that, more than anything else, saddens me deeply, because it will perpetuate the cycle.
“Teaching boys how to properly channel their emotions without exerting control/dominance over a woman could.”
This. Teaching boys it’s okay to talk it out so they won’t lash out could go a long way to solving many of current society’s problems.
As a future educator I’m all for sex education, not just abstinence education, as well as rape education and prevention classes. But in an age where it’s 40 to 1 ratios in some areas for teachers it’s a hard feat, especially when you may have parents not willing to parent, it’s harder to get those sorts of classes pushed.
*le sigh*
“Teaching boys how to properly channel their emotions without exerting control/dominance over a woman could.”
Basically!
Hey, fam, reading the comments, looking at the raw numbers of the rape study done by the Feds has got me thinking. Here’s what we can safely say. First, the vast majority of rape victims get victimized before the age of 30, while the balance of the rest tend to be the stranger rapes which are easiest to prevent, catch and convict. Two, based on the numbers, there’s no easy factor to tell who may be a rapist short of domestic violence. Even then, the numbers just from 1 in 16 dudes to, at most, 1 in 3 of the Ike Turner/Chris Brown set.
So I have a modest proposal for the VSFam, especially since I’ll be AFK for the balance of the morning.
Does anyone have any good demographic info on who doesn’t get raped, especially among women? Maybe if we figure out what’s going right with those women, we can learn some lessons to apply to those at risk. Perhaps instead of looking at women and telling them to stay sober and dress in a damn burqa, we can figure out how to prevent rape culture from spreading.
Just a thought.
No one demographic of women doesn’t get raped. From the rich white woman to the Asian college student, to the black woman working and going to school, all demographics of women have been raped however few report it. That could be where those statistics are coming from; from the women who DO report rape those are the numbers, but a lot of the victims of rape seldom report it.
I counter your proposal with one of my own: for those demographics high in rape, why not figure out why they report it and what drives them to do so? Instill that in our young girls, to have pride or gumption of whatever it takes to report when something bad has happened to them. Also in our young boys, instill in them the need for utmost respect for women, as well as a solid, strong character.
“No one demographic of women doesn’t get raped.”
Sad, but true. And what’s even sadder is that you will come across some women who think that because they’re doing “everything right” that it will never happen to them. I don’t know, maybe it’s me, maybe it’s because I grew up in the ghetto, but I can’t fathom how any woman (or man) would think rape would never affect them.
Lucky ones. What will that prove?
What would that prove? I don’t know, and I honestly don’t. That’s why I’m asking. I figure it’s worth the effort to protect women.
And to Tes’ remark (since I gotta literally get in 2 minutes), the biggest factors effecting report rates with the lack of relationship to the perpetrator and lack of intoxication.
So they were not drunk and they did not have personal relationships with the attacker? That’s a bit of a bind there as a lot of women who are assaulted do know their attacker and are not inebriated.
everyone gets raped. who are the least likely to get raped?
men.
why?
because they do not feel entitled to other men’s bodies and they’re usually doing the raping.
rape culture is steeped in patriarchy and it benefits men. usually, the people benefiting from a privilege are the ones who perpetuate it (a part of this is getting women to play into it–i.e. low reporting rates). therefore, in order to stop the spread of rape culture, we must look to men to change.
I love your comment. That sums it all up.
Among the women who don’t get raped, you’d have to rule out the ones who did not experience attempted rape.
this is such a comically stupid suggestion, wrapped in a veneer of “logic” and “rationality.” you tossed in some stats and pretended like those stats don’t have huge problems.
like, you know…TONS of rape survivors never report. there’s no reason to think that there’s some special cross-section of people who behave in some way that makes them unrape-able.
SlutWalk, for all of its shortcomings, had several women walking around in hoodies and sweatpants holding up signs that read: “THIS IS WHAT I WAS WEARING WHEN I WAS RAPED.”
SMH.
looks like we’ll all be winning for the rest of the day, since the original post and all the people who chimed in to cosign have clearly hogged all the #fail.
Wow…talk about a missed point.
First, I was talking in reference to the the CDC report about sexual assault that makes it clear that they’ve asked women about their direct experiences, NOT reports. This is what women all over America have said.
Two, we know that there is clearly a rape culture. However, the rape/attempted rape/other sexual assault numbers are not 100%. Something must be going right with those women, and it behooves us to know if this is reproducible.
Three, while men are less likely to get raped, they do get raped and do suffer from other forms of sexual assault, often by men…and sometimes by women. While it is valid to focus on men raping women (because it’s the vast majority of cases), making it about patriarchy renders invisible a lot of male victims. The pain of a victimized woman should never be used to silence other victims.
And I’m done. I’m not taking the cross for the foolishness that men do.
I already went off on this before, so I’m sure most people here know my position on this topic.
I’ll just say these two things. Teaching “don’t get raped” is an effective way to stop just rape just as “get a job” is an effective way to stop poverty. Additionally, I don’t care how many asides you throw in saying “but rape is wrong” you are in fact blaming the survivors of rape if you fixate on the asinine advice of “don’t get raped” because by time women hit puberty they are WELL antiquated on preliminary defense mechanisms to try in order to try prevented themselves in dangerous positions with men.
Teaching “don’t get raped” is an effective way to stop just rape just as “get a job” is an effective way to stop poverty.
Malik, you pretty much summed up all the animosity on the board right there. Bravo, sir.
What you can teach:
1.) Women are also human beings and equals. Un-Surprising amount of men do not consider women their equals no matter what feminism has done… lets be honest here.
2.) You don’t have a *right* to have sex with someone else or their body or to ‘finish up’ having sex if they want to you to stop.
3.) Quality of sex is more important than quantity.
4.) Sex is something shared for mutual pleasure… not something women “give” men… that implies that men if frustrated with an uncooperative woman can go ahead and “take it”.
5.) Safe sex is paramount. You cannot wait until just about to engage in the act to spring on your partner that going without ‘feels better.’ That convo needs to happen WELL before the vulnerablity of being naked together.
6.) Victims of well known/well liked perpetraitors are not “just seeking attention” because who in their right mind would want that kind of attention? Being called a whore, golddigger, out for money, and death threats?
If you think these things are taught effectively… you need more people.
Slow clap
The thing is…”Don’t get raped” is not the message I got from Champ or this post. Maybe I missed something.
Except it was. Does not matter anyway you dress it up. The core of the statement is “don’t get raped”. If you want to discuss how rampant drinking and alcoholism have become normalized in society, that is an entirely different issue that is worthy of addressing. Using women’s “bad behavior” and rape as a corrective measure is not. Telling women to “be vigilant” is what has been said for generations and has curbed absolutely nothing. Just like Nancy Reagan’s “Just Say No” did absolutely nothing. It’s simplistic solution to a problem that is far too wide ranging, complex, and embedded into our collective social conscious.
It doesn’t help. It does not promote discussion. It does not give any viable solutions. It does not ease anyone’s minds.
100% in agreement with all of this.
“The thing is…”Don’t get raped” is not the message I got from Champ or this post. Maybe I missed something.”
I said the same thing. I didn’t get that message at all. Though he could have gone into more detail about educating men and less on educating both.
*Snaps fingers in z formation* Get it.
+ 1 million
thaaaaaaaaaaank youuuuuuuuuu
Well said, sir.
This hits very close to home for me.
I get what you are saying and I agree for the most part. in my own personal situation getting drunk and passing out at a friends house was not the best decision i ever made. and while I dont think that makes me to blame for what happened next, I do take full responsibility for my actions which increased (not caused) the risk involved.
However; something has to be said for a culture that allows a man to take advantage of such a situation with no remorse. something has to be said for the fact that I know full well when the story has been fully disclosed MOST MEN will feel that the entire incident is my fault and that my actions completely alleviated the guys responsibilty to do whats right and whats moral.
So in a conversation about common sense something has to be said for the lack of common sense that most men display in date rape situations. something has to be said for the mindset that allows a man to feel that something of this nature is ever justifiable.
thats the issue. We are playing a blame shifting game where at the end of the day women get the worst of this because they get the blame and the rape.
“I know full well when the story has been fully disclosed MOST MEN will feel that the entire incident is my fault and that my actions completely alleviated the guys responsibility to do whats right and whats moral.”
I’m not sure what kind of men you’re around, but that’s a terrible assumption, and doesn’t apply to Most Men.
Rick, you have no clue. None. You can say or that when it’s happening to some woman far away from you in a newspaper and emotionally distance yourself but then it’s another thing to say to someone’s face. As a survivor, I don’t tell my situation to anyone I know or am even close to because I don’t trust that *anyone* … male or female will have my back.
“As a survivor, I don’t tell my situation to anyone I know or am even close to because I don’t trust that *anyone* … male or female will have my back.”
I understand. You either get blamed or pitied, and I don’t need either. I only share my stories when I feel that it will help someone else get through what I’ve gone through. I explain that, yes, it APPEARS that I’m no worse for the wear, but I still get nervous when I see a guy (or some guys) walking in my direction. I still get paranoid when I get home after dark and have to walk from the car to my front door. I’m still reluctant to leave my house alone after sundown. I still question the motives of any dude I see just hanging around the area doing nothing. I overanalyze the tones and body languages whenever I’m talking to someone. I’m wary of invitations to places even though other people that I know will be there. I have strategically placed “weapons” in my house, my truck, and on my person. If a guy is constantly on the same aisle as me in the grocery store I will leave my cart right there, get in my truck, and go. I still don’t trust “security officers,” and have very little respect for their so called protection. There is just so much.
SweetSass, as a two time survivor I understand you. I understand your anger. I hope and pray that someday you find the peace you deserve.
((((HUGS)))
” MOST MEN will feel that the entire incident is my fault and that my actions completely alleviated the guys responsibilty to do whats right and whats moral.”
I see why you think this, but I disagree with that statement. If you’re passed out, like literally unconscious and not moving, yes you should’ve monitored your alcohol consumption a little better, but that does NOT excuse someone taking advantage from practically a corpse. That’s sickest, most pathetic, and despicable thing a guy could do in that situation. You were not wrong, you made a mistake, but you are certainly not the only one to blame, nor do you deserve the lion’s share of the blame. Those individuals committed rape imo and should be punished as such.
My issue is when the girl is drunk, but not unconscious. It’s when she’s clearly drunk, and flirtatious as ever. When she’s “blaming it on the alcohol” so to speak and doing and saying the things she was probably too shy to say while sober. That’s when women need to take more accountability imo, and that’s when I think it’s f*cked up and even borderline misandry to call the act rape. Because let’s be honest, we all get bolder when we’re drunk and do things we told our friends we wanted to do beforehand. 75% of college sex involves alcohol, so it’s a slippery slope to do that kind of criminalization of the mixing of alcohol and sex…again though, if she’s unconscious it’s NEVER ok. And again I’m terribly sorry that happened to you
You got issues if you can’t tell if someone wants to have sex with you or not. Get help.
@Sweetsass- First of all, I have never had this issue. I have been stopped in the beginning stages and had no issues stopping. Usually it doesn’t happen but I’m hyper-aware of not forcing ANYTHING on ANYBODY not just women, so don’t assume I’m talking about myself. However my point remains that it’s not always so black and white and people can be very fickle. My underlying point is that not all acts that involve blurred consent are created equal and I even grimace to see certain acts get labeled as rape, because that’s such a strong word and deserves such strong punishment that I just can’t agree with certain theories such as “if the woman’s drunk it’s always rape” or “running a train is always gang rape”. Also I maintain that drunk, flirty women dealing with men who are also drunk makes me question how much of a criminal he is and how much of a victim she is. I can’t put these guys in the same category as men who wait in the bushes with a weapon on the first young woman to walk by. Nor can I put them in the same category with that sickening police officer that took advantage of the commenter upthread. And I certainly can’t put them in the same category as the pathetic creep that has sex with an unconscious drunk body. That’s my only point. Misplaced anger and false accusations are just as dangerous, if not more dangerous than victim blaming, so be careful who you toss under that “rapist” category…that’s all
LOL, “this commenter” is me.
And… Rape is no less damaging to victims who are less sympathetic in your eyes. Believing that is dangerous and amounts to saying women who are flirty or promiscious can’t get raped…
That is out of control dude and you need to re-examine your thinking.
Oh yeah, I flirted with my attacker too… Why, because he was my boyfriend/date at the time… Does that mean I should’ve been raped?
Justmetheguy,
If a woman is drunk and flirtatious and she doesn’t want to have sex with you, or you are not sure if its ok to have sex with her cuz she is drunk, do not have sex with her.
Rape is traumatic. It is not something that becomes rape because you, a man certified it as such, after examining the circumstances of the situation.
If she feels sex was forced upon her, or threatened out of her, she was raped.
” getting drunk and passing out at a friends house was not the best decision i ever made. ”
The painful part of reading this is knowing that a woman should be safe passing out at a friend’s house. A friend’s place is supposed to be a safe place if you have had too much to drink.
“So in a conversation about common sense something has to be said for the lack of common sense that most men display in date rape situations. something has to be said for the mindset that allows a man to feel that something of this nature is ever justifiable.”
Thank you SO much for this! I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree. Yes, women should be educated on this matter, but why must all the burden be on our shoulders? Just like we should have common sense, so should men.
Let’s be real, and I’m sure the Champ is well aware of this,
Educating women of what not to do, and them actually NOT doing it is not the same. Case in point, the Freshman at my sister school have forums during NSO week on what NOT to do and how to avoid being in bad situations. As SOON as NSO week was over, and all the upper classmen arrived, those girls did EVERYTHING they were told NOT to do. Fortunately there weren’t any tragic stories, but damn…..if something did happen…………
That’s right, they don’t follow those rules because the things we are asking these young women not to do are basically:
“Don’t be independent” (Don’t walk alone at night, don’t go out alone, basically never be alone ever, but especially never be alone with a guy.)
“Don’t ever go out and party and have a good time” (Be sober and responsible all the time or some guy will take advantage of you.)
“And definitely don’t look sexy while you do it.” (That’s just asking for it.)
It seems like “hey, how about you only have sex with chicks who are pretty clearly indicating they want to have sex with you” is a much simpler and less invasive request than what we are asking of women.
And yet society has decided to expect women to limit their own lives out of fear that some guy just wont take no for an answer.
I hope the Champ and all the other men with helpful self defense tips will read all of this blog: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/ and perhaps the accompanying book.
“those girls did EVERYTHING they were told NOT to do.”
Such as?
First off, I appreciate these types of posts SO much more than recaps of “The Game”, and “ignant sh*t we like”.
And frankly, I see both sides of this. Of course a woman is not to blame for her own rape, by any stretch of the imagination. However, my best friend was raped in her first year of college. She was an inexperienced drinker, and drank A LOT that night. She went back to the guy’s room, and was unable to fend off the rape. Was it her fault? Hell No. But if she hadn’t been pissy drunk, would she have gone back to his room? No.
I am a grown woman now (35), and I live in a college town. Every weekend night I see young women falling out of clubs, drunk as a mofo, stumbling back to their dorms in shoes they can barely walk in, in clothes that they wore to entice male attention. In an ideal world they would all be free to do this safely. But we don’t live in an ideal world. We live in a world where many men see this sort of display as an open invitation to rape. Frankly, I am suprised that it doesn’t happen even more often than it does. Would it be the gal’s fault if she was raped? Again, NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES NO. But you can’t simply remove common sense from the equation either. If we do, it is at our own peril.
Since when is being in someone’s room, drunk or sober… license for them to rape you? (It’s not.) Doesn’t matter where you are. You don’t give up your right to bodily sanctity.
It isn’t a “license to rape”. And it was not her fault in any way (as I stated twice in my comment”. But even she will admit that she would have been less likely to put herself in a potentially dangerous situation if she had not been pissy drunk.
Iw you’re right. If she was sober that would not have happened because she would have been more conscious to the message that going to someone’s house at 3 in the AM sends. If you show up in a sexy skirt at my house @ 3AM all bubbly I’m gonna assume you are at least open to the possibility of us getting it in. If you’re laughin, joking, and in a good mood, I’ll most likely be the same and if I think there’s a chance you’re with it, and I find you attractive you better believe I’m gon try it, drunk or sober (whether I’m drunk or sober and whether you’re drunk or sober), and the part that many of you women are not addressing is that sex initiation is not a clear yes or no deal EVER. It’s either implied, possible, neutral, unlikely, or not going down for sure. It’s almost NEVER for certain. Dave Chappelle had a consent contract skit that was hilarious but touched on a really serious issue. We can only speak body language in those situations, so if I get the green light from your body but then the next day you’re telling ppl I took advantage of your adult *ss then imagine how I’m gonna feel. If I know I didn’t force you I’m gonna be f*cked regardless of how I feel, because even if I’m not convicted I’m now guilty in the heart of public opinion all based on someone blamin it on the alcohol.
Now having said all that any intelligent man should know the difference between a chick that’s a little intoxicated and a chick that’s too intoxicated for a real interaction. (Can barely keep her eyes open or her head up. Can’t finish a sentence, holding her stomach or head like she’s sick etc;) The latter is a NO GO, and I would probably even make a chick in that condition leave my house so no one got it twisted (if I can’t arrange for her to be picked up then she’d have to sleep in another room). I don’t play that ish! However, if she was a little intoxicated, to the point where her inhibitions were no longer a factor, she was comfortable with me and just wanted it to go smoother so she could feel less guilty about it then I feel no shame in saying that I would initiate sex. And I wish someone would argue that and tell me I’m wrong for doing so
” However, if she was a little intoxicated, to the point where her inhibitions were no longer a factor, she was comfortable with me and just wanted it to go smoother so she could feel less guilty about it then I feel no shame in saying that I would initiate sex. And I wish someone would argue that and tell me I’m wrong for doing so ”
I would hope you’d ask her if this is what she wanted, and/or stop if she said she wasn’t interested. Just as you can initiate., she has every right to give you verbal feedback on whether she wants to have sex with you. And you have a responsibility to respect what she says.
Because that can be the difference between being at home chilling after having had wonderful sex with a woman you liked versus having to deal with the police and D.A.
” I would hope you’d ask her if this is what she wanted, and/or stop if she said she wasn’t interested.”
I wouldn’t ask. That’s where I think women don’t get it. Nobody asks for sex, that ALWAYS kills the mood even if you’re married and have done it thousands of times already, but you ESPECIALLY don’t ask when you’re single and haven’t slept with the person yet (if you actually want it to happen at some point that is). However I would and always do stop if she says she’s not interested or grabs my hand to stop me. The real problem is when she implies she wants it one second, then implies that she is having doubts, then 10 minutes later she’s making overt attempts (kissing, touching etc;) to induce the act. Women are notorious for sending mixed signals and expecting us to read their minds. This doesn’t just pertain to the moments leading up to sex. Moms are like this with sons at times, sisters to brothers, and during the dating process we get so many mixed signals that it strikes us as just part of the process. I honestly think that if a grown woman is fully opposed to having sex she will let that be known in NO UNCERTAIN terms, but if she behaves like she’s does want it for the most part but isn’t fully sure, I’m going to resume my normal duties of persuasion as a means to initiation (the nature of dating and gender relations) and not complain about the fact that I got mixed signals. I never use any brute force and I never go further than a woman allows me to, but it seems like many of the commenters think it’s sooooo hard to misinterpret signals, when for young adults and teenagers it really isn’t. That’s all I’m actually asserting. That and the fact that rape will never be eliminated from society unfortunately…oh yeah, and I do see the gender wars that Jevioso was talking about and every topic from approaching at bars, to giving and receiving consent for sex, to marriage, to divorce, to education and jobs always sparks so much vitriol, competition, blame games, and debate between the male and female commenters because the gender war is REAL. I don’t think feminism started it, but the spirit of feminism (the proclamations and manifestations of feminism that I am effected by in these types of discussions that is) and the heavy focus on gender inequality, privilege, and other negative aspects of the male/female dynamic certainly fanned the flames to the point where anytime I wanna participate in a blog discussion like this I feel like public enemy number one of random women all over the country and I really don’t feel as though I deserve that for simply being born with a penis. I wouldn’t necessarily call it reverse sexism, but this paranoia and labeling of the other gender as the enemy is certainly destructive/counter-productive. This gender-based venom that permeates the air (both sexes contribute to it) really does suck because we need each other much more than we can ever imagine…smh
You can ask without killing the mood. It happens every day.
You say something like:
How badly do you want me inside you right now?
How do you want it?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Are you still saying you’ve never asked?
Again, why is ‘being in someone’s room’ a ‘potentially dangerous situation’?
Dangling off a cliff… is an obviously dangerous situation. Being in a room, not so clear… unless on the door it states ‘Rapist Lives Here.’
If you do not see how being black-out drunk in a virtual stanger’s room at 3 am is a potentially dangerous option, then you lack common sense, which is exactly what we are discussing. It doesn’t mean that she was begging to be raped, or that she could have prevented it ultimately. It does mean that her judgement was impaired and she left herself vulnerable to attack. It would be fantastic to live in a world without rape; where a woman wouldn’t ever have to worry about being brutalized. The reality is, we do not. Take precautions even if it pisses you off that you must. It won’t solve the problem, but what is the alternative?
lw,
Anyone blacked out passed out needs immediate medical attention.
When you are passed out you cannot give consent, or call 911.
If someone passed out in my home, I’d assume such, rather than saying they’re stupid for passing out in my home after drinking too much.
“But you can’t simply remove common sense from the equation either. If we do, it is at our own peril.”
This one simple point does not blame the victim, does not disprove the existence of rape, does not strip men of personal accountability, does not insist that preventative measures are the answer to all sexual assaults…
…yet it has pissed a lot of people off.
Good post Champ. Someone needed to say it.
Needed to say what? Don’t get raped? o.O
If that is all you took from his post (I know you are muccccch deeper than that!), then yes.
The irony is that last night I finished reading about Pam Grier’s rape at age 6 and again at 18.
In her case, there were witnesses who did nothing. First case, older male cousins held her down and raped her when they should have been nurturing and responsible for her as her babysitters while their parents worked. No one helped her. All boys took turns raping her — a 6 year old and her older male cousins!
At age 18, she was raped in a room full of people drinking and listening to music. She screamed, fought, tried to get him off her and failed at it. She even bit him. No one helped her. He was someone her mother urged her to go out and date, and have fun instead of always being in her books.
The boy was a nice boy who was polite and well known by her family for years. She was drinking a soda.
I mean Damon, what the fuck? There is a disconnect there.
A 5’1 110 pound woman drinking shots of Patron does not deserve to be raped.
She doesn’t deserve to be aggressed with the penises, hands, objects, fists of men who know she is too drunk to give consent to sex with them.
Rape is a person having sex with your body and you are not there. Or you are there and freaking out because you can’t get them off you and you are scared they will kill you because you fought or because they can kill you if they want to.
Rapists do not care if you say “no”, spit in their face, vomit, scream, cry, curl up in a ball. They don’t care if you beg them to stop, let you go, let you go home.
They only care about humiliating you and not getting caught afterwards. They care about pointing out what you did “wrong” that they know good and well they used to their raping advantage.
Women can take the precautions for safety’s sakes. But what happens when the man you have known and trusted turns out to not be trustworthy? You get raped. Or if you are lucky you get away before that happens.
Rapists are never innocent. They’ve just had more practice and awareness than we may realize until too late. They may be your boys, your friends, associates, family and be the devil himself in private with one of their victims.
Free my comment please.
With each day I’m becoming more aware of the fact that an introspective man is a rare being. I’ve noticed that whenever something bad happens to a woman, society always traces the root of the issue to something within the woman; she must have done something wrong, she must have asked for it somehow, she must be internally defective to have invited such calamity upon herself. Women are forced to look within themselves to find the root of issues regardless of external contributing factors.
But whenever a man does something wrong or has an unfortunate event in his life, the root of the issue is most times traced to something external. Why?
I’m not saying either of this is right or wrong, but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. In the case of rape, men commit the overwhelming majority of rape crimes, and women are raised from birth to guard themselves from the seemingly uncontrollable men surrounding them.
A blog post that ignores these facts and seeks to keep the focus on the efforts of women to prevent getting raped, instead of placing focus where it is highly needed is a willful dismissal of the facts on ground. Why not focus on the things that men can do to avoid perpetrating or abetting rape?
More introspection and less blame shifting by men, coupled with ongoing efforts by women is the middle path that will help keep men and women safe from rape. I agree with the shared responsibility note that this post attempts to highlight, but the post missed the mark by not striking a more introspective note. Women are blamed way too much for an event that is usually out of our control.
I am nearly convinced that most men are incapable of taking responsibility for their actions. They have to blame a woman. It’s so knee jerk and insistent, I have to blame inherent male inferiority. I’m serious.
I understand the sentiments of your response but let me say this; I have volunteered at a rape crisis center for several years now, so I know all the risks, stats, common sense, uncommon sense, that goes along with rape, and interact with survivors on a regular basis. regardless of how a woman came to be raped, regardless of her age, there is some degree of victim blaming and shaming which is sad (yes, even when it happens to a child) and I know we can agree that that’s a problem. Even with all my knowledge, and self defense training, I found myself less that two centimeters from being raped myself, by someone I had known for years. I was sober, and wrapped up (it was winter): I fought, I ran, I screamed NO (all those things we think women are supposed to do) but none of it was working.
I can assure you that there is no common sense way to avoid being raped. You can ask how did I know this man was trustworthy, but how can any person know? Sure I can avoid binge drinking, getting in cars with strangers etc. but the truth is that once someone has decided they are entitled to your body with or without your consent there is very little you can do. Considering that most people are assaulted by those they know and trust (family members, “friends” and co-workers), the only “common sense” way to avoid that is to avoid being alone with anyone at all (especially when you factor in that women can be perpetrators of rape at all), which is virtually impossible.
“But — and I’m trying to say this as delicately as possible — as the article continues, and lines such as ‘Consent can be withdrawn by the words ‘no’ or ‘stop’ and in many states, a woman doesn’t have to say no at all. Consumption of alcohol can prevent a woman from being able to legally offer consent’ begin to seep in, the tone seems to shift from ‘men need to take full responsibility for their actions’ to ‘men need to take full responsibility for their actions…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.’ and I just can’t agree anymore.”
Is this a whine fest? Cause it sounds like your whining. How do women have carte blanche to do anything? Ever. The point was that some of the energy that goes into scolding/shaming women on their behavior/dress should be focused toward scolding/shaming men/boys that taking the p*ssy without an invitation is a b*tchass thing to do. How you read that as women no longer have to be accountable for their action, I don’t know.
” being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way”
No it doesn’t. No amount of sobriety or alertness is ever going to protect you if someone else is crazy/determined enough.
+1
You can only be held to task for taking responsibility for something you do… not what is done to you.
If you got pissy drunk and got into a vehicle and ran someone over… that is on you. But we don’t tell people not to walk outside or cross streets do we? Technically, if you aren’t a pedestrian you cannot be killed by a car. That would be preposterous.
Very heavy topic today.
I think approaching prevention in a level-headed, balanced, and pragmatic way, and keeping both genders involved in the act of stopping rape, is the best solution. I agree with Champ’s sentiment that language suggesting that women cannot or should not protect ourselves needs to be seriously avoided.
I do not agree with the hyperboles, scare campaigns, or anything that suggests that men have no role in preventing rape. However, again, please read it carefully, language even *suggesting* that women cannot or should not protect ourselves needs to be seriously avoided.
No, women should not be blamed across the board, but preventative measures are important to communicate, still. Regardless of the unfortunate forced rapes (by force I mean child molestation, workplace blackmail, and non-stranger rape, as well as stranger rape), let’s not pretend that preventative measures like being a responsible drinker, not getting drunk alone, a strong forceful “no”, etc. don’t help prevent rape. These things have not eliminated rape 100%, but they do work.
I’ve been assaulted before and have prevented assault. I’ve prevented assault more than I have been assaulted, thank God. One of the things that folks may assume is common sense, that men are not entitled to my body because they happen to think I’m pretty, was taught to me. That teaching was a proactive measure to prevent assault and it helped me.
There is danger in removing all blame from women (intentionally or unintentionally), when while dong so you also remove the amount of control we can have in many cases. Once even a hand full of women abuses this kind of power to claim rape in order to back pedal on a past sexual decision, this does not bode well for actual victims of rape, and encourages under reporting of rape. (no, false rape charges are not the only reason for dismissive attitudes toward rape).
My policy is to do whatever is in my direct power to “prevent crime.” I focus on personal accountability and can only hope for, encourage, and teach others to do the same.
“My policy is to do whatever is in my direct power to “prevent crime.” I focus on personal accountability and can only hope for, encourage, and teach others to do the same.”
This.
You’ve articulated the point better than anyone on this post. I totally agree.
Royale with Cheese, I love your comment.
A lot of comments above talked about how rape is about control. I don’t disagree. What is it that causes someone to want to exercise that control over a particular woman though? Did she dress in a sexually suggestive way that brought his attention to her? Once she had his attention, did she reject and belittle him to make him feel inferior? Did he respond with an action that he thought would show her that he is not inferior, but instead has the capacity for dominance and power over her to get what he desires?
To say that rape is about power neglects a lot of contributing factors. The pervasive “I can do whatever I want to do” attitude contributes to a “you get what’s coming to you” rebuttal. Actions have consequences. Let’s not loose sight of that. Educating men on appropriate ways to overcome their feelings of powerlessness is important. Educating women on how not to become a target is equally important.
You have issues. Get counseling.
x’s 2
Here we have a man who is actually brave enough to point out how seemingly normal men can cross the line of rape, addressing a serious and common factor that could be adressed and make a huge difference, and you are totally dismissing him by telling him he needs counseling. This is how *not* to make progress.
-1
So with you today Royale.
How you get behind someone saying that because you’re a woman you can never do what you want because that’s how you get raped???
How in the world did you interpret my post that way? Unproductive hyperbole gets us no where.
“The pervasive “I can do whatever I want to do” attitude contributes to a “you get what’s coming to you” rebuttal. Actions have consequences. Let’s not loose sight of that.” – this statement should be dismissed. There is no road to progress being paved here.
You have the freedom to do whatever you want to do. There is no denying that. Hell, if you want to drink and drive, that’s fine. But, that does not change the fact that to do so invites potential negative consequences. Similarly, to take actions that bring you undesired attention or place you in a compromised position also have consequences, but you certainly have the right to take those actions. And, should these actions result in rape it is not your fault. The rapist is completely responsible for doing so, but let’s not pretend that your actions didn’t make you a likely target. There are things you can do that make it more likely for you to become a victim, and while you certainly have the right to do them, don’t pretend like the actions don’t have potential negative consequences.
I’m sorry, am I the only one who sees that the majority of the focus in this post puts the woman at fault?
If this is progress then leave me behind.
Of course you are not the only one. Yours is a very typical response. But then again, your question may have been rhetorical…
I am not dismissing it. I am addressing it appropriately. Any man who thinks rape or any physical aggression towards a woman is an understandable reaction to being angry about your position in the world as a man needs counseling. This statement reflects a mind that is damaged. Yes he is brave for saying it. I’m glad he did. My suggestion is for him to get counseling before he acts on that damaged thinking.
Your “suggestion” is a back-handed passive agreesive transparent insult that only serves to alienate a potential problem solver from the discussion.
I understand what you are getting at, madam. However, I will have to disagree that we need to be accepting of every point of view in order to have progress. Not with this issue. Everthing is not equal. This is not a level playing field. Some points of view are not ok. If you are wrong, you need to know you are wrong. Pretending everybody’s opinion is equally valid so people feel safe to express things is great when everybody has equal power. Allowing people to be victimized by a vocalization of a power structure attempting to silence the powerless is not ok. IMO. Kumbaya lets hold hands everybody is cool doesn’t stop rape.
WC: “Any man who thinks rape or any physical aggression towards a woman is an understandable reaction to being angry about your position in the world as a man needs counseling.
PNP: To understand is not to condone.
WC: “This statement reflects a mind that is damaged…My suggestion is for him to get counseling before he acts on that damaged thinking.”
PNP: To understand that certain people will react in a certain way to various stimuli, whether that reaction is appropriate or not, does not infer that that understanding will breed emulation by he who understands. Your statement is akin to saying that psychologists (those who understand human behavior) will commit the very acts they counsel against; therefore, for me to get counselling would be counterproductive.
+ 10 million
seriously.
“Educating men on appropriate ways to overcome their feelings of powerlessness is important. Educating women on how not to become a target is equally important.”
Ultimately, I think the number of r.apes that are avoidable by being “careful” probably equals the number of men who would be deterred from r.ape by education. I don’t think men r.ape because they are uneducated or unaware that it’s wrong; they rape because they are sick and twisted. I’m not sure we can argue that talking about safety is useless, but then say educating men on r.ape is useful.
“I don’t think men r.ape because they are uneducated or unaware that it’s wrong; they rape because they are sick and twisted.”
I think that is a major misconception that actually sweeps rape further under the rug. When we claim that only the sick and twisted rape, we unintentionally remove the rape label from forced sex that the “insulted and demeaned” commit. I agree with Please’s assessment that feeling insulted, demeaned, and emasculated is one of the motivations behind non-stranger rape/ date rape. This is actually addressable.
When you address this motivation and teach men that the “she had it coming” idea is unacceptable and dies not reinforce manhood, would-be rapists will think twice, and just as importantly, the friends and witnesses of would-be rapists will squash the sh*t-talking braggadacio that is laced with undertones of “she has/ had it coming.”
Agree.
Absolutely.
“Please’s assessment that feeling insulted, demeaned, and emasculated is one of the motivations behind non-stranger r.ape/ date r.ape. This is actually addressable.”
I agree. I also question the number of r.apists would have chosen another option if they had had emotional support systems you guys mentioned? Someone gave some numbers above indicating men that r.ape tend to do it over and over again. To me, that’s an indication of a crueler intent.
“Educating men on appropriate ways to overcome their feelings of powerlessness is important.”
Excellent. In all of the reactionary dialogue around this topic, this has not been emphasized enough. The specter of the “sick twisted monster” tends to monopolize the conversation, and they are actually in the minority.
When you address this motivation and teach men that the “she had it coming” idea is unacceptable and dies not reinforce manhood, would-be rapists will think twice, and just as importantly, the friends and witnesses of would-be rapists will squash the sh*t-talking braggadacio that is laced with undertones of “she has/ had it coming.
I actually agree with this. It’s not just sick and twisted rapist that have an attitude about the “ambiguity” of rape. You’d be surprised how many young men and women genuinely think that some girls “ask for it” or feel entitled to someones body, or a reciprocation of sexual advances. Perhaps education for both sexes should actually revolve around the dangerous attitudes about rape, handling rejection and emotional processing. So perhaps in event rape does happen or seems to be impending (especially in group settings w/ young people and alcohol) there are no “grey areas”, and it is unacceptable to not only commit it, but stand by and be apathetic about it happening.
Im about to ether you rite now wit this: what about the prison system where male on male rape is rampant? Its because he looked so sexy in his orange jumpsuit r &ite? RAPE IS ABSOLUTELY ABOUT POWER & THE VIOLATION OF ANOTHER PERSON. LETS JUST TAKE GENDER ALL THE WAY OUT THE EQUATION & LOOK AT IT THAT WAY. NOW MAYBE UR SIMPLE AZZ CAN UNDERSTAND.
Not everyone in prison rapes. What’s the difference between the two? It’s a very important question.
“Im about to ether you rite now wit this: what about the prison system where male on male rape is rampant? Its because he looked so sexy in his orange jumpsuit r &ite?”
@ Iceprincess: My simple azz believes that even in prison culture, would-be victims can take measures to make himself less a target, i.e., don’t make sexually suggestive acts towards fellow prisoners, travel with your crew of trusted homies, don’t hangout in secluded areas, and carry a shank for self defense. To a fellow prisoner with pent up frustrations and low self esteem, perhaps he did look sexy in that orange jumpsuit. My point is, nothing will protect you from anything 100% of the time, but it still makes sense to try to protect yourself.
Sincerely,
My Simple Azz.
Ha.
Here’s my question to the VSS’s out there. You have a dude who is talking about the motivations of a rapist (which by the way, are well-validated in the psychological literature) and trying to find ways we can reach dude so that he can deal with his lack of power and his control issues in a way that, ya know, DOESN’T RESULT IN RAPE, and he’s wrong and needs counseling? Miss me with that foolishness.
We as a society need to find not only the dudes who are similarly situated, but more importantly are motivated to rape. There are plenty of dudes who feel powerless but instead, say, play video games or just end up with a porn addiction.
Figure out who these people are, intervene young and show them a better way, and the women will be better off for it.
This.
The message seems to be “unless you are going to join me in endlessly attributing any and all rape to sick monsters, you are not welcome to take part in the discourse.”
But PNP said:
“Educating men on appropriate ways to overcome their feelings of powerlessness is important. Educating women on how not to become a target is equally important.”
You and I both agree with PNP’s first sentence.
I have a major problem with PNP’s second sentence in its context with the phrase “contributing factors.” So now everyone should have psych expertise to prevent rape? PNP’s comment overall sounded like “don’t get raped,” not “let’s look inside the mind of rapists to see how we can prevent people from becoming rapists.”
I’m with you and RWC on fixing the rampant misconception that all rapists are sociopaths and scary others. But that’s not what this thread was about.
waste of time champ …women on here get emotional about the subject and forget to analyze whatever you said or look at its context, in order to bring regurgitated talking points and the usual red herrings associated with “blaming the victim” rhetoric nothing constructive comes out of trying to deal with people who only deal in confirmation bias.
Bingo! But I do applaud Champ for saying it. This topic requires logic to triumph over emotion in order to see the validity of the points he made. Apparently that task is too tall for SOME of the VSS’s.
Man, woman and in-between – no human being can be held down against their will and forcibly assaulted without getting “emotional.” In fact, no human being should be able to READ about such an assault without experiencing an emotional reaction. If you’re that unemotional of a person, you got bigger problems than can be solved on VSB.
If you really want to make progress about something, make room to experience that emotion called “empathy” and maybe those on the other side of the fence will be able to lend you a more impartial ear.
+1000
How do you breach an emotional subject without getting people’s emotions involved?
Disagreeing with someone’s argument and citing examples of why it’s invalid is rhetoric? i thought that was how debates work.
“waste of time champ …women on here get emotional about the subject”
well…it IS an emotional subject. why shouldn’t we get emotional about it? Champ didn’t waste his time. Shouldn’t we be talking about this? Isn’t this precisely the reason why so many rapes and sexual assaults go unreported? Because people don’t want to talk about it? It’s an emotional subject and we should be upset about it.
Champ, you did yourself and this blog a disservice by posting this way. Even what you wrote on its face is contradictory. Youve given voice and justification to your more disturbed male readers and caused real pain and distress to your female readers who have been raped. Not fake Internet pain, not the kind you forget about the next day. Real pain.
Some people will have nightmares, some will become physically sick. Some will breakdown. mentally, emotionally. Because you felt it was necessary to state the obvious. Behind your innocent sounding “be careful” is the wicked and insidious, “you are a woman, you have no right”.
You hid behind qualifications and “I don’t mean this in a bad way, but…”, and ripped open a wound for many women. A little bit like how when a woman is alone with a man she trusts and he turns evil on her in an instant.
Exactly.
Seems to me no matter what Champ said or how he said it this topic would have gotten some of the same reactions.
+1. Pretty much.
Yes, yes. Poor the Champ.
Come on.
Yes, yes. Poor the Champ.
Come on
Sad ain’t it?
No. Had he stopped at everything before the “BUT” I would’ve been with him 100%. It’s the same thing as …i’m not racist (yay) BUT… (oh shit, here it goes.)
If he had stopped before but the discussion would have ended there so what would have been the point of posting?
This isn’t a discussion this is a rape-apology-fest. And a sickening one at that. Doubling down on hurtful and inaccurate statements is not a laudable thing.
+1000
Everything after his “BUT” has made the rape apologist come out of the woodwork and feel emboldened.
Exactly. And Champ needs to be very disturbed about who is agreeing with him and their motivations. That should be enough to make him reexamine his beliefs. These men are not well and the women who are agreeing with them need help. It really is a slippery slope. I’ve seen stuff on here before that I thought was iffy, jokes I thought went to far or dealt with things I don’t think should be joked about, but this was vomit-inducing. Literally. I seethed with rage and I’ve realized it’s part and parcel of the same thing. If that’s what he thinks about this, I need to find another site to read.
The women who need help are the ones taking a post on a blog as a personal attack against them and all rape victims.
Seems there are a lot of unresolved issues going around in here and getting in the way of real, open discourse.
You just want to maintain the status quo. Too bad we don’t want to sit around and self-flagellate. These women and myself are writing about our real life experiences, not hypothetical situations. That has more bearing than what someone thinks happens. I swear, the privileged always think they can do oppression better than the victims. I’m sure you and Champ would be model women. The point we’re making is that has nothing to do with being raped.
Is that what I want? To maintain the status quo of men and women not being able to freely discuss a hard and hurtful topic that affects both sides? Yep. I guess you got me.
There is nothing wrong with victims sharing there stories. But why share if you don’t want to engage in a discussion or hear opinions that you might not like? Just getting angry and defensive isn’t gonna do anyone any good here.
Also, I am a woman and far, far from being a model anything. I could get raped today doing nothing more than passing a dark alley. So could anybody. I’ve haven’t once suggested otherwise either.
I don’t think anyone is being needlessly defensive. They are answering- you all don’t like what they are saying, but they are talking. They are saying the conversation you want to have is not feasible. This back and forth between men and women has been happening. Rape is still going on. What the ppl sharing their story are sharing is saying that doesn’t work. Talking to women, advising women- doesn’t work. Talking to men- a new theory, could work. Why is everyone so resistant to men taking some responsibility? If women are expected to be hyper-vigilant and be responsible for everything that could happen, from anyone that might act, I don’t see why the general population of men can’t stand some helpful hints on their behavior.
I don’t get it. Apparently, 1/3 or 1/2 of women, depending on who you believe, will experience sexual violence. According to ppl on here a tiny percentage of men are responsible for allllll these rapes. I’m not buying this. Unless these men have huge families and circles of friends who could they know all these women? Since we know most women know their attackers. But that’s unimportant. Let’s say it’s true.
A tiny percentage of men is moving through the world with impunity, raping women, and people still want to make the rape convo 50/50 responsibility, hell more like 30/70 or 10/90, with the onus on the woman. Rather than focusing attention on the supposedly minuscule number of men raping women, it’s easier to warn 100% of women? Millions of women in this country? It’s easier to get women, all these women, to coordinate efforts to stop this minuet amount men from coming to get them, rather than men checking themselves (if so many are pure and innocent). Rather than men checking each other- instead of women, the victims.
This is the conversation, the logical discussion, you want to have? Hardly anyone is guilty, it’s all one big misunderstanding. Some men can’t understand, their feelings have been hurt, etc., etc. Apparently, the hurt feelings of these men is worth more than the suffering of rape victims, more than the safety of women. I haven’t seen anyone on here say rape is good, but with their actions, with what they are valuing they are saying it’s not all we’re making it. Just like being called a racist is in ppl’s minds more hurtful than racism, the PTSD of men having to discuss rape when they did nothing is more important than men being taught to respect women.
People are going off on the craziest tangents- only blank number of men rape, the rest of us are ok. WHO CARES?! It’s not about you. It’s about rape. If you feel like that’s about you, work that out.
I won’t get too personal here because I don’t like to manifest my sins and I feel this topic is heavy, but I have personal experience with this subject matter and I firmly believe that both genders must be educated on how to act responsibly around each other. I once acted somewhat-irresponsibly (I say somewhat because no alcohol or drugs or ratchetness was at play, but a false sense of security was) and I almost paid for it. Alhamdulillah, thank God, I was spared, BUT if I didn’t have such a false sense of security, would I not have encountered that “almost”? I don’t blame myself here but I am not going to act all high and mighty and act like I was totally careful and he was just this monster. Yes, he is a monster but I should have had my guard up 100% instead of assume that because I dress appropriately and am pretty cold and nonflirtatious that it can’t happen to me. As a result I exhibited some level of hubris. Both genders have to be careful and be educated.
“And, while the sentiment in Maxwell’s article suggests that victim-blaming is dangerous, I think it’s even more dangerous to neglect to remind young women that, while it’s never their fault if they happen to get sexually assaulted, they shouldn’t thumb their noses to common sense either.”
Yeah, this is an issue of timing I think. I think ANYONE looks like an a-hole when telling a victim, “Well, ya shoulda blah blah blah holier than thou blah”, no matter the situation. I DO think we should teach caution and ways to prevent dangerous situations. I think the problem lies when you disregard the fact that they’re a victim and ONLY focus on what they should’ve done. Or ONLY focusing on what they should do and no focusing on the fact that ninjas shouldn’t be attacking folks. But, we DO live in a reality where folks do things they shouldn’t, so yeah, I definitely don’t see anything wrong with teaching cautionary measures with any dangerous situation.
So, although I realized while writing this that it may be a touchy subject, I admittedly underestimated exactly how potentially explosive it was going to be. I read some of these responses late last night and early this morning, and I’m genuinely shocked at the level of anger and hurt this entry has caused with some people. I really did not expect this to happen, and while I don’t apologize for expressing my viewpoint, but I do apologize about being so flippant and not being more careful to articulate exactly what I meant to convey. Considering the subject matter, leaving lighthearted footnotes and links to my appearance in Essence at the end of the entry was a very bad idea.
Anyway, as far as the actual article and responses, my intent wasn’t to imply that any victim of rape should be held “accountable” for what happened to them. I also realize that the majority of rapes are done by people who know their victims — boyfriends, co-workers, friends, dates, etc — making it almost impossible to defend against, and in no way did I want to spread the message that staying sober and out of shady situations is all a woman has to do to avoid being raped.
All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.
I’m aware that all the education in the world about reading situations and learning how to protect yourself and stay out of harms way and properly vetting men isn’t going to prevent men from raping women. A woman can do all of that and still get sexually assaulted. I’m also aware that the onus of responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of the rapist, and no where else.
But, my whole point is that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex, and I don’t see how saying that suggests that I think women should be held responsible for their own rapes. Perhaps I’m being too obtuse, too tone deaf, or too insensitive, but I just don’t see the connection between “everyone should be educated and learn how to take responsibility for their actions” and “rape is the woman’s fault”
You know, before logging on and leaving this comment, I called up a friend to ask her to read the post and let me know if people were being way too sensitive or if I was crazy in thinking what the “hell is everyone so upset about?”
Her (paraphrased) reply:
“Yeah, I think you should have left this topic alone. Any time a man writes about rape and even puts women and accountability in the same sentence, you’re going to anger people and come off as either completely tone deaf or dangerously insensitive, even if you don’t actually say or feel that women need to be held accountable for what happens to them. Maybe you could have worded your feelings better, but there’s really nothing you could have said besides “rape is wrong. the end” that would have made much of a difference.”
I think she’s right.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Women are the ones who have to be “hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read minds” every damn day of our lives. NONE of us feels we have license to act any sort of way… You are nuts if you believe otherwise. It’s men who are walking around all day doing what they want, they don’t wake up in the morning worrying about this stuff… They don’t worry that too many beers will equal them getting an*lly or orally raped. That doesn’t register with them.
Sh*tty post. Sh*ttier and more offensive non-apology.
I got it Champ and if a few others did as well I think you did good with this post.
How can we begin to solve anything if we can’t even talk about it in the first place? Telling a man to shut up just cause he’s a man is no better than telling a woman to shut up for the same reasons.
The Anti-Cool, we are talking about it.
Sidenote: The elephant in the room in this conversation is that women do and will listen to what men say to weed out whether he is a potential rapist/rapist.
Basically, if you say anything we deem counter to what we as women believe, or sounds insensitive or mean, we will label you as a potential rapist. Let me guess you’re a huge supporter of SOPA?
C’mon dude. SOPA?! That has no relevance to this conversation. Your previous comment, albeit idiotic, was a far better contribution than this nonsense.
Idiotic…nice.
SOPA was an act of censorship, telling a man that based off what he says he will be judged as a rapist or not, obviously is not? Okay… Yet, I’m the one coming up with idiotic statements. Seeing connections isn’t that difficult when you have an objective mind.
Your comment is a prime example.
+1 Jevioso- These conversations become futile because we can’t ask LEGITIMATE questions about gray areas and situations we (men ) may actually face without getting accused of bein a rapist like some ignoramous did to me upthread. And its not just rape it’s the same thing with any topic that matters that directly affects both genders in different ways. Feminism sure didn’t cause rape but it damn sure contributed to this perception of a war between the sexes and this assumption that im your enemy because im a man and don’t see the world entirely as you do. Im done trying to reason with folks and their destructive and offensive emotions though. I bid you eaalliance adieu. Ill
Thank You! That’s all I can say
Yes, we may be talking about it but most of what’s being said is “You don’t understand and you never will so shut the hell up”. Where is that going to get us in the end except where we started?
Exactly.
Exactly. Convos like these make my head hurt because of blockage like this (from both sides, because then the convo also delves into feminists vs non-feminists vs ninjas who think they know what feminism is but have no clue outside of bootleg propoganda). It’s so tiresome. And I really wish we COULD have these convos without allat. Ya know… actual discussion. Otherwise, what’s the alternative? Leaving things the way they are? SMDH…
“Yes, we may be talking about it but most of what’s being said is “You don’t understand and you never will so shut the hell up”. Where is that going to get us in the end except where we started?”
that’s what i personally took from all the comments.
men shouldn’t talk about it, and since men have the potential to rape, men need to be hyper-vigilant about their behavoirs and check each other.
I agree, TheAnti-Cool.
I personally wasn’t offended only because I don’t think Champ’s intention was to educate women or to blame us. Maybe I missed something here. But I do understand a lot of the anger this caused because it’s such a touchy subject and because we have men telling us all the time how what happens to us could have been avoided, and that’s not fair. The only thing I honestly feel we should keep in mind is that we don’t know anyone 100%. We don’t always know what a person is capable of so to assume that he would never do that to me is not wise. Other than that, what can we seriously do? I walk down the street sometimes wearing hijab and abaya and I still have men sexualize me. I still have men try to screw me. We can cover ourselves entirely with just our eyes showing and it can still happen. That’s what we should educate women. It can happen…even when we are careful.
I don’t need to be educated by Champ… Nothing he said would’ve helped me prevent my assault. It’s insulting to suggest otherwise. Hence yes… I am offended.
“I don’t need to be educated by Champ.”
I never said Champ had to be the one to educate you or anyone here.
You are definitely right in that we don’t know people 100%, which is why we (men AND women) have to observe our surroundings and do whatever we can to ensure our own safety. Yes, men should respect women & see them as more than t!ts & ass and everyone should care about the well-being of people other than themselves, but the dark and sad reality is that this isn’t a utopia where we can go around carefree & able to enjoy ourselves w/out the threat of danger. Even some of our supposed “loved ones” will hurt us or leave us high and dry if it means they get what they want. The fact of the matter is that you have to look out for yourself cause most people don’t give a damn how what they do can possibly harm or damage you, and life will be this way until we as a global community come together & try to make changes in how we think, behave, raise future generations to love & respect each other, etc.
Exactly, naturalista.
Sorry Champie, but your friend was right.
I think you came off insensitive well..because your ignorant. No, not ignorant in a demeaning way,I’m not questioning your intelligence, but ignorant about rape,and the women it happens to. Otherwise I cannot accept your shock and awe that this post struck such a nerve. You’d have to be ignorant of the fact of how common place sexual assault is against women, to be surprised that your readership (I’m assuming a large percent are women) might have experienced rape and reading :
women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.
- Would strike a nerve with a few.
A lot of us are as marveled at this luxury you claim to be afforded to women, as you are at the angry responses. I don’t think Zerlina’s article encouraged women being able to do “whatever the hell they want” . However what does that entail? Drinking on the 13th date with a man much larger than you? Being flirtatious with no “consequences”? In a perfect world, women should be able to trust dates, and coeds. However none of us are deluded into thinking that that is the reality we live in.
Perhaps a more productive conversation would have included addressing some of the “grey areas” so many men (even on here) seem to have about consent, or even asking women what if any suggestions could be made about prevention. All this talk of men having to be “hypervigilant” well, that’s news to me, honestly it is.But in your zeal to exclaim the perils of the responsibility of the man to be “hyper aware” you pretty much ignored the hyper-vigilance that so many women exercise on a day to day basis, and instead implied that women are encouraged to act recklessly, when that seems to be so incongruent with reality.
Obviously rape is a powder keg of a subject, but perhaps you should have consulted with someone before writing the article.
thank you for this.
i don’t understand what is so difficult to comprehend about the fact that we, women, are not raping ourselves. and it’s extremely dangerous to assert that women can invite rape.
You summed this up much better than I could have. I understood his point, but he sounded like a dyck in how he chose to word it. The concept wasn’t offensive. His delivery was definitely so.
What I find insulting is that Champ, and other have expressed there was no other way he could have went about this w/o women acting “irrationally”. It’ so insulting, and ignores the many of upset comments proceeded with “I understand what you were trying to say but when you write “X Y, and Z” I found it insensitive and hurtful, and these are from self-identifying victims of sexual assault.
Sorry, that’s a cop-out. There was an absolute infinitely better way this could have been approached.
#1 not misrepresenting an article, one of the few that actually had a proposed solution for rape prevention that included men.
#2 Leaving the discussion open to actual victims, so that perhaps you can hear their stories, and get a better perspective of how rapes occur.
#3 Not assume that what you are saying, is not what these victims have already heard.
#4 Proceeding with a disclaimer that perhaps you might not be the most knowledgeable about this subject, and be open to education and yes..even criticism.
What’s dangerous to me, is some young woman reading this, who may have been a victim. And seeing this as confirmation that she could have done something differently, she should have done something differently, and recoiling from discussing her experience for fear of judgement, or self-blame. Even with all the precursors of “Of Course It’s Not Your Fault But..”
I know that a rape victim who has not dealt with her or even his assault with a mental professional will see the bottom line as ” You Could Have Prevented It.” Because that’s the little voice that always echoes in their heads. The fact that this danger is being ignored is extremely disturbing, and indeed “reckless”.
“What I find insulting is that Champ, and other have expressed there was no other way he could have went about this w/o women acting “irrationally””
Thank you. This got me so effin heated. It’s like “here we go again. women are crazy! can’t even engage in serious conversations with them!”
“But, my whole point is that young men AND young women need to be taught how to behave around the opposite sex”
i don’t understand what makes you think that young women AREN’T told how to behave around the opposite sex. that sht is drilled into the majority of us since the day we’re old enough to understand that boys have penises and girls have vaginas. this is why so many rape victims feel responsible for and ashamed of the act of being raped.
the focus has ALWAYS BEEN on the behavior of women, far more than on the behavior of men, the ones who are out here raping up everything.
we are told. in excess. and guess what? rapers are still raping. all the time. and will unless we shift focus to educating men and boys that rape is wrong and how to not become rapers.
suggesting that we educate boys and men does not imply telling women to run around the streets drunk and naked at will. at all.
~~~”but there’s really nothing you could have said besides “rape is wrong. the end” that would have made much of a difference…I think she’s right.”
Sure she’s right in that most people will react the way they normally do instead of being pragmatic, but I hope that’s not discouragement and defeat that I’m seeing in the tone of your writing at the end…
~~~”All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.”
You are correct. The last sentence hit the nail on the head.
Fact is, we have to work together to stop sexual assault. Working together does not mean “men stand there while the women tell you what to do and how to think because ya’ll are the criminals in this thing anyway.” (sounds a little like relationships in general, but I digress). Working together may sometimes involve men pointing out some elephant in the room that emotions are distracting everyone else from, or men challenging us with some very uncomfortable ideas…such as gender friction, which is a common and delicate matter, motivating a lot of non-stranger rape.
That’s my two cents for what it’s worth. I mostly appreciated the post overall, (although dangerously flippant in a couple if spots)
Yep, she’s right. You have no right to have an “opinion” on what women can do to prevent rape happening to them, but you have every right to listen to their complaints, judgements about masculinity and how that leads to rape, and basically talk about how evil men are. Not only do you have a right, but you have an obligation as well.
But hey I don’t want a bunch of female bloggers rallying to get your blog taken down, just because you committed the sin of going against mainstream feminist ideology, with a predominantly female audience.
It needs to be discussed. You needed to know how many women are hurt by this way of thinking. We need to know how many men out there think this way. Otherwise we’d all be ignorant. We shouldn’t stay away from “touchy” subjects or leave important topics alone. That helps us stay exactly where we are. I’m thankful for all the voices standing behind victims. Keep speaking ladies (and gentlemen). Some of your words helped someone feel less alone, less to blame, and more powerful.
+100. Conversations like these are too important not to have.
I agree that this is a conversation that needed to be had and yeah, Champ pretty much put it all on the line to start it. But his perspective is not unique and if we’re coming here to really talk about how men and women interact in all other social realms, then heck yeah rape should certainly be included in the dialogue. I support Champ in this endeavor although I may not agree with certain aspects of his perspective. These are dangerous waters but maybe somebody can learn something from this conversation besides what seems to be the majority conclusion that Champs a butthole for thinking like he does. (I, for one, don’t think that Champ is a butthole but again, I don’t particularly agree with a lot that he says here.) However I’m glad he said it and now we can all deal with the fallout.
“All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked.”
That you took this away as the theme of the article is where you lost me today. As if by suggesting that we educate men/boys to be more aware of what rape is and what they can do to help is somehow the same as asking them to don a cape and become rape fighting superheroes is ludicrous.
Actions Zerlina called for in her article:
Teaching young men to respect women.
Imploring them to check each other’s inappropriate behavior.
Making sure they know that all rapes don’t involve strangers/weapons.
Outlining what consent is/n’t.
Teaching men not to put THEMSELVES in situations where their character may be called into question.
Intervening when you see something shady happening.
How…HOW…is that hypervigilant?! It seems like decent human being stuff to me but it’s like you’re saying that’s too much to ask.
Excellent points. Thank you!
+1
without turning this into a conversation into one about power and privilege, it should be underscored how ridiculous the idea of men feeling silenced in these conversations really is.
This is what privilege is: the idea that you can enter a discussion, say whatever you want, and turn around and whine when people point out that you might not know what you’re talking about. No one who has ever had conversations with rape survivors, with women who talk about near-misses, or ever heard women actually share their stories should ever write.
I get the idea that men should participate in conversations about rape, but there are conversations in which some voices *should* be privileged over others. We’d roll our eyes if a white person said that, “well, maybe you hadn’t been dressed this way the police would have responded to you better” — we’d immediately point out that no amount of sartorial propriety or proper diction would keep us from getting pulled over or being assumed to be less intelligent. We’d all assume that the white person in the conversation, even if they had lots of black friends and didn’t think themselves racist, would — by nature of not being black — miss out on all the myriad, inexpressible little things that are happening at the moment of the exchange. We’d be like, “you’re my boy/girl and all, but you might want to shut up here.”
That’s what folks are saying. I don’t think the pushback is meant to be silencing. It’s meant to suggest that maybe you *don’t* know what you’re talking about since this isn’t your reality, and maybe you should listen.
There’s nothing novel or clever about making this about you, and feeling silenced, and “how can we participate if you don’t let us talk?” not in conversations about race. not in conversations about rape.
do better.
Knowledge God. The fact that no one who supports the “be vigilant” non-sense has engaged in any type of dialogue (or listen) with the multiple women survivors who have decided to come out today speaks volumes.
Yeah, it astounds me that Champ must’ve read my comment and in one ear out the other… Totally disregard my experience as a victim. Then LECTURE me in a non-apology that I should’nt be offended. Salt in the wound.
I guessing that was more out of respect. What is there to be said? Most r.apes are carried out by people we trust and there was nothing that could have been done to prevent that. Any perceived bit of flippancy (which VSP specialize in) would have been considered rude. I’m guessing many, like me, just chose not to go there.
Alladis 1000%
“That’s what folks are saying. I don’t think the pushback is meant to be silencing. It’s meant to suggest that maybe you *don’t* know what you’re talking about since this isn’t your reality, and maybe you should listen.” This is what I feel that most people are saying. Some things shouldn’t be written so carelessly. And his edit should have been left off of the post. Simply say “I didnt mean to offend anyone and I am sorry for the way that it came across.” His apology was something that I would expect from a politician. To use a female friend to validate his post is like a white person using a minority friend to validate their borderline racist comment.
co-sign, G.D.
Very well said.
If a bunch of black people are having a conversation about DWB, and a white guy who’s cool is sitting in, it’s probably dangerous for him to say anything. However, if the conversation shifts towards how white culture is responsible for DWB, he either needs to respond and stick up for himself, or get new friends who respect him.
A man should let a woman talk about her experiences, but when she starts using those experiences to make comments/judgements on men as a whole, I think he should respond, privilege or not. Just because you’re stronger, doesn’t mean you have to endure what she would consider abuse.
that you guys have turned a bunch of threads criticizing what victim-blaming into a bunch of conversations about not getting what you want to say whenever you want to say wherever you want to say it speaks volumes.
many of the comments on this thread have been about the the lack of rationality being expressed by the people who disagree with the O.P. but, in a textbook example of how privilege works, the dudes who are whining about being attacked — in a conversation about rape (!) — have decided that it’s the (mostly female) other side that’s hypersensitive and emotional.
to address your premise: if my white friend heard me lamenting stop-and-frisk, and he got angry that we criticized a broader American culture that trivializes the criminalization of black males — since that’s more analogous to what folks in this thread have been saying — then maybe he *should* find different friends.
When did we blame “men as a whole” for rape?
That was never stated, nor do I believe it was implied. The original article that Champ’s post was in response to simply stated that women have been told and instructed from the beginning of time on what NOT to do in powder to not be a victim. Her article asserted that perhaps, just perhaps, we should start educating men as well regarding what constitutes rape. Teach young men (in addition to the already being taught women) what is/is not acceptable. Explain to our boys that sometimes, when a woman says “wait, stop” she’s not playing hard to get. She’s not asking you to try harder to convince her into it. Perhaps, just perhaps, she means wait. Perhaps she wants you him to stop.
Let me ask you this, if you’re a mother, a good mother, what would you think of someone suggesting to you that we need to educate your daughter on not dressing up like a hoe, what are you supposed to believe? That without the guidance she’s already getting, she’s still likely to dress like a hoe?
The only reason anyone can say men need to be educated for them to understand no means no, or stop means stop, means that one must think that men are stupid. Since, women aren’t specifying which group of men should be educated, it’s quite clear they’re pointing out all men and not some men, or many men.
So what’s the difference between saying all men are rapist, and all men need to be educated to avoid rape? There is none, they’re both interconnected. Basically, women (who of course will be the educators) are the ones who best know how to teach boys not to rape them? Yep, great idea.
“more men need to be educated about rape” doesn’t mean that all men will rape. it literally means that men don’t understand rape as a lived experience and could stand to listen to those who do. seriously, look at the starting assumptions in this thread. why is that a stretch to say?
i have a twin sister, and from the time we were 13 she was getting very specific messages from my mom about not leaving anything she was drinking unattended, about not coming home too late, etc. she’s literally lived with the specter of sexual assault since adolescence; it’s not something I’ve ever seriously considered a possibility for me.
when i think about rape — and my guess is, when most men think about rape — they think about it as an abstract thing, as a thing that they have control over. this isn’t surprising; people in privileged groups often assume that they, not actually living with a set of circumstances, would do more/be different in those circumstances. see Malik’s comment upthread about the way people talk about what poor people should be doing. I’ve had to have so many conversations at PostBourgie about how people who have never been poor should throw out all their assumptions about how they would be when they’re poor. How you can’t get a job if you don’t have a steady address. How you can’t have a bank account because of all the ticky-tack fees. How working means you won’t have child care. And so on. Sometimes people say, eff that! y’all just don’t want to have a real candid discussion about this! Y’all just want to shut up people who don’t agree! And sometimes people acknowledge that their premise was wrong, that they may not know everything about something. Or anything about something.
i’ve been privy to lots of dudes having conversations about rape. I’ve seen lots of dudes assume automatically that a woman was lying when they accused a man of rape (especially if the dude in question is famous). Just last week someone made a comment about Desiree Washington and it being 3 a.m. when she went to Mike Tyson’s room, and well, come on she knew what it was when she went there, right? I’ve known dudes who swore up and down that that train their boys ran on that girl when she was 16 was totally consensual and she was with it and, anyway, she was a straight freak. These dudes aren’t monsters. they’re not sociopaths. they’re regular cats who think that because rape happens outside of their field of vision, that rape never happens. It’s completely an intellectual exercise for them.
Educating dudes just means dudes have to first recognize that we are operating from a position of ignorance on this, that we can’t just burst into a conversation with people who’ve been living it for their whole lives and say “well, here’s what I think!” and not expect pushback on it.
This thread takes me back to undergrad, where the same few white kids in my race and sociology class talked about all the ways racism could be mitigated, about how it wasn’t as bad as we, the people of color, thought and look at progress and basically said “this is why white people feel like we can’t discuss these things!” when people told them that they actually didn’t know what they were talking about, that this was just a class for them but our involvement in the subject matter, ahem, didn’t end when these discussions did.
If you hear enough stories from rape survivors about their experiences, you’ll realize that there are no through lines, no patterns. one person in this post was trying not to travel home by her lonesome at night —”lowering the risks” and all that — and was raped by the campus escort dude. Think about that for a second.
Education always requires humility.
I wouldn’t mind shutting up and saying I don’t know anything about rape: you’re right, I’m a man, I don’t have to walk around the street everyday thinking about some anonymous man trying to jump me and rape me, or some fat ugly girl who is going to clock me over the head so she can have sex with me. However, here’s the thing, I’d keep quiet, if I didn’t keep hearing that it was my whole existence as a man that was responsible for rape, that it was the music me and my boys listen to that was responsible for rape. That “rape culture”: the fact that I feel that if I offer my existence, my mind, my ego, my money to a girl that it would be cool if she let me hit or just reject everything, rather than take what she wants and turn me down – that that’s responsible for rape. All I’m saying is why don’t you tell me straight up that I’m a rapist who just hasn’t had the gumption to go out and do it, at least then I would respect the idea behind rape culture.
Ok, this will probably fall on deaf ears but let me say this… if you have such an overwhelming and emotional response to a post you should really think about why this is happening. It’s probably due to more than you not expressing yourself correctly or in enough detail. Maybe you did express exactly how you felt and maybe you’re still wrong. That is a possibility. I’m tired of people getting called out on their shit and simply saying, “Let me explain….” No, nucca, you did and you wrong, you dead wrong.
I’ve never been raped or assaulted, but as a woman every day I have to live with the fact it’s a huge possibility. 1 in 3 women report sexual violence in their lifetimes- and that’s only reported cases. It’s much more prevalent, and because of crap thinking like that more women blame themselves instead of getting help. Sh!t, if someone is drunk why in the hell would you see that as your entrance sign. When you see a man in a wheelchair do you get the urge to rob him? Push him over because he’s helpless? Sick fuc@ks.
I read alcohol is involved in whatever huge percentage of rapes- but no one said WHO consumed it. Do you tell your buddies- “hey don’t knock it back so fast, you won’t be able to make good decisions.” Nope. Because sober or drunk the onus is always on the damn woman. Goddamn.
If I’m coming off steamed it’s because last night I was almost assaulted. I got of the bus A HALF BLOCK FROM MY DOOR, and a guy called out. I figured it was just a catcall. But I heard footsteps and the street was totally empty except for the two of us. He was coming behind me kind of fast and shouting. I sped up. So did he. There was no way I could beat him to the door and get it open and close it, even though the keys were in my hand (how to prevent rape 101 *snark*). I ran past my apartment and down the street, he was still there. Thank God for the dark. I knew I had one chance- run into a dark parking lot and hide. So I did. I crouched behind a car and thought I’ve never been assaulted in my life. But my life’s not over yet.
I could hear him creeping around. Eventually he left. I need a gun, not sanctimonious “how to keep yourself from being raped” tips.
It’s articles like these that make me want to read solely womanist sites
au-napptural,
I am so glad you are safe. Yes, you may want to get you a gun and a permit to carry if its allowed in your state.
OMG at your story.
Glad you are safe!
Wow, that is absolutely SCARY. My heart sped up while reading this. SOOO glad you are safe. *hugs*
Thank you guys for your concern. Last night when I got in, I was shaking. I couldn’t believe this was happening. Even though I’ve been followed home before. But even though this post was fucked up, I feel like I’m not alone, reading these comments. This is your life as a woman. None of us can say we don’t know someone or don’t have our own story. This is what most men don’t understand.
Once on here either Panama or Champ wrote we can’t understand what men will go through to get sex. The example was a man working for months just to rent a luxury car for a weekend to get women. But most men can’t understand this. That hyper-vigilance is part of our existence, like our hair, our skin. I’ve never been assaulted, abused, anything. But there have been some times in my life, with men I knew and strangers, when things were a hair from going horribly wrong. Once, my mother, great-grandmother and I were talking and we all had a few stories to tell.
You know which groups have insanely high rates of rape and assault? Mentally ill women and long term care patients like coma victims. Are they irresistibly sexy- nope, completely helpless. To suggest we don’t do enough, that somehow we are complicit in our victimization, that some chick not drinking is going to change something…I have no words.
That is absolutely terrifying. I’m so glad you’re safe.
Amen. We don’t need more “tips on how to not get raped.” I’m going to come back to this blog in ten years when the author grows up. All of this time, I thought he was just a funny guy being sarcastic. I didn’t realize he was actually this immature. Sad. Thanks for sharing your story sis.
“I know that rapists are going to rape regardless of how women decide to dress, what (and how much) women decide to drink, where women decide to frequent, and what women decide to do. For rapists, all a woman needs to do to “ask for it” is be born.”
this post really should have ended right here.
my e-crush on VerySmartBros has diminished quite significantly.
Agreed, I too have a long standing “e-crush” on VSB, but this post was very disappointing to me.
That “you should be careful” meme doesn’t amount to a hill of bull sheet because many of us feel we were safe, and were with people who care about and look out for our own safety.
All it takes is one run-in with a rapist.
If you don’t know that a family member, friend, date, boyfriend, employer, coworker is a rapist, that is when you find out.
“If you don’t know that a family member, friend, date, boyfriend, employer, coworker is a rapist, that is when you find out.”
Exactly.
~~~”but there’s really nothing you could have said besides “rape is wrong. the end” that would have made much of a difference…I think she’s right.”
Sure she’s right in that most people will react the way they normally do instead of being pragmatic, but I hope that’s not discouragement and defeat that I’m seeing in the tone of your writing at the end…
~~~”All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.”
You are correct. The last sentence hit the nail on the head.
Fact is, we have to work together to stop sexual assault. Working together does not mean “men stand there while the women tell you what to do and how to think because ya’ll are the criminals in this thing anyway.” (sounds a little like relationships in general, but I digress). Working together may sometimes involve men pointing out some elephant in the room that emotions are distracting everyone else from, or men challenging us with some very uncomfortable ideas…such as gender friction, which is a common and delicate matter, motivating a lot of non-stranger rape.
That’s my two cents for what it’s worth. I mostly appreciated the post overall, (although dangerously flippant in a couple if spots).
Thank you. You’ve nailed it. Stopping sexual assault is going to be a COMMUNITY project. Not a man project and definitely not a female project. Let’s not let our fears distract us.
One more thing. Our spam filter is all messed around right now. At the moment there are 1,918 comments in moderation, and maybe 1800 of them are spam. We’ll try our best to pull the real comments out of there, but I can’t make any promises. If your comment is stuck in moderation, it’s likely going to stay there until we fix this problem.
not true. i spent time clearing out comments. i felt like this topic was too touchy to not let folks get their piece out there b/c of a broken spam filter.
This is a really terrible article, even after the “11:07 edit”. Really makes us men look bad.
Women being “taught to behave” is in no way related to some demented dude that will rape her. This even applies in our example of the 5’11 girl taking patron shots.
Wow.
Thank you Shareef, you get it.
Well said, thank you.
Thank you Shareef. Now here is a very smart brotha.
thank you.
@Shareef- He said 5’1″ not 5’11″. 5′ 11″ is tall as sh*t for a woman lol, but I would suggest you read some of the other comments by the men who aren’t simply agreeing with EVERYTHING that the women have said. If you still disagree I can respect that, but at least know exactly what you’re disagreeing with
Wow. I’m so late to this. I’m one the five. And everything you and everyone else said I could have done and should have done, I did. And even after rethought myself. Did I do enough? Did I respond after correctly? (I actually dated the guys after and justified what happened by saying I would have had sex with him eventually anyway.) Later I would find out–from his own mouth–that he’d been accused of rape before. And that’s what set me straight. There was nothing I really could have done because he had an established pattern of behavior that had nothing to do with me.
Me too girl. Me too. Ain’t nothing I could done…
Ms. Smart,
I understand where you are coming from. He attempted, and I have no idea how I got him off me and to not go through with it. Divine intervention, is what I think. For a very long time I blamed myself for the matter, until I remembered his reaction to the whole thing. Calling me a slut, saying that I was a bad kisser (no ish, I wasn’t trying), that I provoked him, that I knew he was engaged, bla bla bla. It dawned on me after much introspect that no, this wasn’t my fault. Yes, I could have been a little smarter in not assuming that an engaged man who claimed to be so in love with his woman and claimed to be so moral would ever do that. But I did everything I could otherwise to avoid ever being in that situation. I set clear boundaries, kept my bedroom door open, never flirted with him, always brought up his wife, never even got physical (not even a handshake) and never even dressed provocatively. I was still in that situation. And after speaking about this with a few people (not too many), it dawned on me just how many of them are ignorant when it comes to rape and sexual assault, saying that because he didn’t end up raping me, I should get over it. People of both genders. That’s why I think we should keep striving towards educating ourselves and each other.
And this is why this stuff goes unreported. You aren’t embraced or supported most times.
Smart, stupid; virgin, promiscuous; good decisions, bad decisions; drunk, sober; provocative, repressed – it’s not the victim’s fault. Not even a little bit. Champ, you don’t understand that and you’re not the only one. You need to educate yourself. And once you do, then you’ll be able to come back and apologize for your viewpoint. It’s not the flippancy, it’s not because it’s a “touchy subject”. It’s the “but” after you say the responsibility falls on the rapist. This is not a fun subject but clearly it still needs clarification. If you can learn from this post then it will have been worth it. If you walk away the same way you walked into it, that will be truly sad.
Oh, and men don’t have to be mind readers to know when a woman wants to have sex. That’s bull and you know it. Ask her. Men who are raping women are not being tricked – it is a choice to take what they want. Take a stand against rape.
Smart, stupid; virgin, promiscuous; good decisions, bad decisions; drunk, sober; provocative, repressed – it’s not the victim’s fault. Not even a little bit. Champ, you don’t understand that and you’re not the only one. You need to educate yourself. And once you do, then you’ll be able to come back and apologize for your viewpoint. It’s not the flippancy, it’s not because it’s a “touchy subject”. It’s the “but” after you say the responsibility falls on the rapist. This is not a fun subject but clearly it still needs clarification. If you can learn from this post then it will have been worth it. If you walk away the same way you walked into it, that will be truly sad.
Oh, and men don’t have to be mind readers to know when a woman wants to have sex. That’s bull and you know it. Ask her. Men who are raping women are not being tricked – it is a choice to take what they want. Take a stand against rape.
I’ve read a lot of feminist articles about rape. I’ve read them in and out, and though they make a lot of good points, there is one premise I completely disagree with which leads to my fervor in attacking them. Feminist conclude that rape is a result of social engineering; whether it is porn, patriarchy, media etc. Rape isn’t an individual choice, but it is an act inspired by the collective. Now the reason why I disagree with this premise is that it suggests that the only difference between me and a rapist, is that the rapist reacted to his programming and I did not. In other words, men don’t have morals, men don’t believe in right or wrong, men are controlled by society.
If that was true, and society was in fact responsible for rape, why isn’t it that the vast majority of men aren’t rapist? If most men aren’t rapist, and the vast majority of men have never been rapist, doesn’t that mean when it comes to brainwashing men into become rapist, society has failed at it’s job? If that is the case, what makes you so confident that society will be more capable of brainwashing or teaching men into not turning into rapist?
The vast majority of men aren’t rapists, but the vast majority of men will believe that some situations “aren’t really rape” or that the victim “doesnt lack all accountability” as made obvious by some of the heated back and forth in this discussion — and THAT is a product of the social engineering of rape culture today.
So basically you’re suggesting that rape culture has made men unsympathetic to grey areas when rape is concerned. So for instance, if two men and women are drinking alcohol, and the woman gets drunk and the guy gets drunk and they end up having sex, and the woman basically says she got raped, the fact that most men believe that it’s both their faults is a product of social engineering and not logic?
That’s not logic. That’s rape. Intentional or unintentional. This whole “grey area” thing is ridiculous. If you’re too drunk to gauge accurately whether or not a woman is functional enough to give consent, take her number, put yourself in a cab, and call her tomorrow.
Let me tell you what you just did, and you did fall into my trap: I said both the man and the woman were drunk. I never specified who was more drunk than the other. Consent requires a man and a woman to give it, that’s why women can be accused of raping. Yet you automatically assumed two things a. That the man was less drunk than the woman and b. The man was conscious enough to make a decision and the woman wasn’t. You didn’t even attempt to look at that scenario from an objective point of view!
But of course, that is never the case because at parties the women are always more drunk than the men smh. If two people weren’t conscious enough to give consent but they had sex anyways, both of them are guilty of raping each other, so it’s either they both go to jail or they both go scot-free – That’s logic. But you see, here’s the thing, by default, you turned that woman into a victim. You didn’t know her, you didn’t know her character, her history etc, but you still made her out to be the victim and you made the man out to be the rapist. So though you weren’t guilty of victim blaming, you were guilty of victim placement, before you knew all the facts…which low and behold, is the default reaction of people who subscribe to feminist ideology.
There’s no trap here, and this is how you’re deluding yourself. You said the woman claimed she was raped. If she was raped, she was raped. If he claimed he was raped, I would have drawn the same conclusion. In the context and aftermath that YOU provided, I made my response. You can feel free to continue to adjust your situation to find some idiosyncratic exception, but I followed your story exactly as you presented it.
“You didn’t know her, you didn’t know her character, her history etc, but you still made her out to be the victim and you made the man out to be the rapist”
This is where you continue to be wrong, sir. Her character and history have nothing to do with whether she was raped or not!
She said she was raped, so she was. There’s no gender normative bias here that you’re trying to imply. I am aware that men can be raped too. It a woefully under-reported statistic, due to the associated feminity of victims. But victim placement isn’t an issue you here – YOU identified the victim, not me.
I’m not going to even touch the idiocy of suggesting that rapes cancel each other out.
If the woman claims she was raped, she was raped…end of story. So she doesn’t have to prove in a court of law she was raped, and the man is guilty, or better yet the man has to prove that he’s innocent as you would suggest, which goes against the whole philosophy of our justice system. Once again – objectivity?
When I referred to history, I’m suggesting you didn’t even know what happened that night, or what that woman is like…all you know is two people woke up, side by side, one screamed rape and you don’t know what the other person did or said. So you chose the victim, not based on the facts, but based on who was the first person to make an accusation. And yet not only did you choose sides, but you made a conclusion, without considering what the man might have to say in his defense.
Do you really not realize what you’re doing? Why is your first response to check for exceptions, instead of accepting statements at face value? I didn’t draw any conclusion. Of course things will be investigated – and if there’s any fallacy to her accusation, the truth will come to light. But immediately looking for holes in the situation says something about your views than it does mine. The fact that you’re so quick to judge the verity of the woman’s statement is unsettling. You’re so determined to disprove the admittedly gendered perception of rape that you’re doing any and everything to subvert the facts of the situation. All I have to say to that is #whohurtyou? I don’t understand why men can’t just aspire to be just as “responsible” as women are supposed to be…
Lol well, I was wondering when who hurt you was gonna be asked. No one in particular. I’m just against the idea that proposes that men are evil even without the onset of evidence. The reaction when you hear someone committed a crime (ie rape) shouldn’t be “Oh he did it” from society, but, “Why in the hell did he do it?”, ..that’s what being a humane society is. I just feel every suggestion women make in terms of getting rid of rape, leads to a totalitarian society and that’s where all the passion comes from. And as someone who has lived in a totalitarian society, I gasp at how similar the ideas fueling a totalitarian society are common in feminist ideology.
You’re right, the response shouldn’t be “he did it” – but the response shouldn’t be “lets prove why she’s wrong” either. And that’s where I take issue with your presentation. Like I said, investigation is natural – but the fact that your immediate instinct is to defend the man, who, more often than not is guilty (less than 5 percent of all rape accusations are false) is bothersome.
And fyi – I’m not a feminist. At least, not in the scornful way that you seem to perceive it. There’s actually a lot of feminist ideology that I dont ascribe to. But that’s neither here nor there bc this is not a “feminist cause”. This is a human issue. You’re choosing to make a lot of generalizations about me because of my responses, and that’s your right. But just like you said, you’re looking at a statement, and drawing a lot of unfounded conclusions…
you’re not serious.
If both the man and the woman are drunk enough to have impaired judgment, why is it the guy that has to gauge the situation and walk away? Is the woman not expected to do the same? And if neither of them walk away, how does it automatically mean she was raped because she says so? What if she just regrets it?
I’m not assigning blame; just asking who’s personal responsibility lies where. I think this is the gray area that some of the guys are talking about.
” If both the man and the woman are drunk enough to have impaired judgment, why is it the guy that has to gauge the situation and walk away?”
He has to walk away when he knows he wants to have sex, and she doesn’t. He has more physical power than here–might be taller, stronger than her–and doesn’t want her to think he’s trying to rape her.
If they both want to have sex, it isn’t rape.
“Is the woman not expected to do the same? And if neither of them walk away, how does it automatically mean she was raped because she says so? What if she just regrets it?”
How is a woman who is drunk supposed to know he means to hold her down and rape her? If she is drunk at his place, her guard is already down. She’s thinking he won’t hurt her like that. But since you asked, the moment she realizes her safety is in danger, she should fight like hell.
If she just regrets the sex, and it wasn’t a rape, she won’t have had the experience of being held down and raped. A man has to hold you down in order to have sex with you or threaten your life and safety (a woman I know had a gun flashed to her) when you are not giving consent to sex. That’s why it is rape.
Consensual sex does not involve threats of violence or the use of violence to:
a.) prevent you from physically leaving the guy and the location for your own safety (attempting to leave and not being allowed to leave = non consent
attempting to get away from the guy so he cannot have sex with you = non consent)
b.) be able to rape you.
“I’m not assigning blame; just asking who’s personal responsibility lies where. I think this is the gray area that some of the guys are talking about.”
The grey area is the use of violence and/or threat to her life and safety so that you can accomplish having sex with her.
Rape means that the sex will happen even when she gives no consent by her actions to try to get away, saying no, screaming, crying, biting et cetera.
If a man is that disconnected that he cannot tell that a woman does not want to have sex with him, there is something wrong.
If a man is aware she does not want to have sex with him, and does it anyway, here is no longer grey areas.
Grey areas are temporary. You find out quickly if a woman is trying to get away from you or hurt you. Men can recognize fear in a woman’s eyes if they can recognize fear in another man’s eyes.
….wow…statements like this break my heart.
I’m really just trying to be civil, because some you guys’ points are valid. I think when guys try to ask about rape, the response is so vitriolic that it subverts discussion, and discussion/education is so necessary to awareness. But the pure dismissiveness of this comment saddens me. First of all, I don’t understand the continued use of idiosyncratic situations to prove the “grey area” of rape — but fine, I can continue to play this game of “what if.” The fact is, the law says if a girl is drunk, she cant give consent. Period. If you’ve been drinking and cant gauge it, why cant you wait til tomorrow? I don’t understand why this is so hard to grasp. You don’t even have to gauge anything – just wait til you’re both sober. 24 hours is not that serious. No one’s not saying a woman shouldn’t be responsible either – the point is women are taught from the moment they hit puberty that they have to be responsible, and that hasnt changed anything!
Why can’t the guy walk away too?
And the fact that you even said “what if she just regrets it” is one of the major reasons why a lot of rapes go unreported after they happen. Statements like “she clearly wanted it then”, “she shouldnt have put herself in the situation”, etc really further a lot of the dismissiveness that happens when situations like this come to light. Why can’t men regret putting themselves in this situation, even if it was unintentional?
Women are told every day how to avoid being raped. Guys should learn how to avoid the so-called “grey area.” I don’t see why this is such a problem.
I think it comes down to big dog/small dog. (not to be funny, thats just how I see it in my mind). Ever see how big dogs are always careful with small dogs? Because big dog knows that he can seriously hurt the small dog. Men, in the scenario, have to take the ultimate responsibility because with everything else being equal he’s more than likely to be stronger than her and will always look like the villian regardless of what actually happens. He will always look like the bully and the aggressor. So men have to protect themselves. With that being said, I think violent r.apes occur because of mental depravity, not misunderstandings.
Are you yet to see any women take responsibility for anything that happens related to sex forget about something as profound as rape? Have you ever heard a woman say; “It’s all my fault, I got to do better” without saying, “but he was a (fill-out the blank)” The fact is women are operating from the single belief, that regardless of what they do, men are stronger and men “have” to protect them – this foundation, doesn’t change regardless of how equal we become or we think we are in their minds. That’s why no matter how big, or how strong a woman is, if she’s beating you up, you’re a b*tch for even trying to restrain her, you’re supposed to run away and save her from her own anger lol.
Uhhh because he is the one strong enough to physically overtake her and with the appendage to penetrate her? And if he is mentally clear enough to go through the motions of sex… he is mentally clear enough NOT TO.
It seems the point of my comment was missed.
There is no force here. No one is being held down and penetrated against their will. Both are drunk and willing. But he’s supposed to walk away cause why? And she can call it rape the next day why?
This is what I’m not getting. Among other things apparently.
“In other words, men don’t have morals, men don’t believe in right or wrong, men are controlled by society.”
I honestly don’t know where you’re getting this from. Show me the article you have read that says all men fit this description.
But, I will say this. We won’t ever be able to stop all violent acts in this world. But teaching (not brainwashing) people the right way to behave and respond to others is a start. The point is to say it out loud. I have already started with my sons and they are young. I have literally said to them, just because you are stronger than someone does not give you the right to take what you want, among other things.
Yes, I am confident that specifically teaching young men to respect women (in any circumstance) will help stop rape. Not all, but some. And saving just one person would be well worth the time and effort.
You don’t see the connection, and that’s the problem with feminism. If you say society controls what people do, that also means that people don’t have independent thought in other words people don’t have freedom. In fact, you’re indirectly saying that you’re better than most, because you’ve seen the reality that they aren’t wise enough to see. Most feminist if you give their ideas an objective eye, believe women are Neo and men are the bald guy who would sell out Morpheous so they can live a rich and influential life in a fantasy.
I don’t know how you got a discussion about rape twisted up with your clear hatred of feminism, but you might want to examine that. This isn’t about feminism.
“Returning to feminism, feminism isn’t guilty of causing rape, but feminism is guilty of providing an uncivil environment where rape can neither be addressed or discussed with the purpose of solving the problem between men and women.”
As you can see through the comments section, my idea isn’t that farfetched.
Just like all you heard from Zerlina’s article is that men have to be hyper vigilant and women can do whatever they want, all folks hear from this article is that there is some sort of common sense on the part of most women that can prevent a deranged person from raping them. while you may be right for a fraction of rapes, you are completely inaccurate for the majority of them, and i don’t think you will ever realize that. i can’t tell you what to say, but i sure can tell that you haven’t studied this subject in depth very much. it’s okay. very smart brothas say dumb shyt too.
“while you may be right for a fraction of rapes, you are completely inaccurate for the majority of them, ”
I think this is really what I hear many of the men saying. The illustration provided was offensive, but I think it was used to illustrate the small that fraction of situations you mention where ones own judgement *might* affect the outcome.
Champ, I applaud you for starting this topic, specifically BECAUSE it’s such a painful, polarizing thing to discuss. This is exactly the sort of thing that NEEDS to be happening more. I agree with some people that maybe you missed the mark, but that doesn’t make your arguments invalid. Why? Because it takes two. Vilifying you, a man who is comfortable enough to lay out his thoughts for others to dissect, debase or support, is NOT what we should be doing.
As a woman I’ll probably get hate for for this, but like TAC I also believe in shades of definition for rape. I’m sorry, but there is almost nothing in this world that’s strictly black and white (not saying I agree, just that it’s the way it is). Humans are too complex for such a binary simplification. I agree that blaming the victim is not the right way to fix the problem, but I do not agree that people can engage in unintelligent actions without expecting some sort of repercussion. Rape, however, should NEVER be one of those repercussions. Any woman should feel safe enough to get herself drunk out of her mind and wake up the next morning worrying about nothing more than the vomit in her hair and a blinding headache, not about whether she’ll be in a delivery room in nine months. On the other hand, no woman should have to say no more than once, but I’ll be damned if someone tries to convince me that some women don’t sometimes use sex to their advantage. The ratio of offenses is wildly disproportionate, but it doesn’t eliminate the existence of the gray area.
We get all up in arms about rape, and rightly so. But where do we draw the line? Who decides where rape falls on the spectrum of “terrible things that happen”? Is it worse than your dog dying? Than child abuse? Than being forced into an unwanted marriage? Than being in a car accident with a drunk driver? I’m not being facetious, I genuinely think that for each of these you will find at least a few people who think that one of those is worse than rape.
Alls I’m trying to say is that it’s not easy. And any attempts to use blanket statements, on BOTH sides, is wrong. Not all women are whores who want it and are just playing hard to get, not all men are pigheaded dogs who think only with their peens, and the education needs to go in both directions.
+1 to this entire post, especially this…
“Vilifying you, a man who is comfortable enough to lay out his thoughts for others to dissect, debase or support, is NOT what we should be doing.”
Thank you.
But isn’t that what we do here…The topic may be more controversial then most but the general response is the same.
I didn’t feel that The Champ was vilified. Some people simply disagree with what he said. And did so without the name calling and other childish BS. No one threatened to boycott VSB. I don’t think his character is in question here just his intended message with today’s post.
*what we do = dissect, debase and support either The Champ’s or Panama’s thoughts/opinions
Agreed. While many folks did shame him outright (I was a fan until I read this garbage, and now I’m not), many more added their viewpoints and disagreed, specifically about how he interpreted the article that was the subject of his blog post.
Sunao, you did a fabulous job of articulating pretty much what I feel. Treating rape as a simple black and white issue is JUST AS DANGEROUS as victim-blaming, IMO. And shutting down discussion is not the way to go… otherwise, how exactly will these “prevent rapists” events occur? By just telling them not to? Oh, we see how well THAT has worked out. We NEED thorough discussions like this, and as someone who HAS been a sexual victim, I encourage them. That’s another thing. All victims aren’t black/white either… I’m not one who shuts down any and all discussion from men just because they “can’t understand” (which… huh??? They can’t understand how it’s like for a woman to get raped, no… but rape in general? They most certainly can… they’re also liable to be a victim), I open it up. Honestly, I can’t see getting closer to any real solution without it.
THIS. It’s both encouraging and breaking my heart reading the comments today. I have my own story, and as someone else in the comments has already said I cannot think of one woman in my own circle who doesn’t have her own story of rape/assault/harrassment. We can disagree, and disagree vehemently, but we cannot keep going without engaging in dialog about this subject. Dialog is not shutting down someone’s thoughts/offerings/opinions.
First of all, Champ, I would like to say that I think its fairly obvious that you tried to approach this as delicately as possible, and I understand that from a man’s perspective, topics like this are hard to broach. Its unfortunate they we can’t have a healthy discussion about rape without people one either side getting extra militant about their perspectives.
But statements like this…
“men need to take full responsibility for their actions…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.”
make me so sad. They really do. And it’s not your fault, really, but its an unfortunate fact that rape culture has become such a pervasive facet of society today that this is a wholly popular perspective that has been taken, with no understanding of why it’s so wrong.
It’s wrong because it implies, albeit unintentionally, that its only not your fault if you didn’t take any precaution possible. It’s wrong because it perpetuates situations like D.A.s and lawyers telling you not to bother pursuing justice because you won’t win. It’s wrong because it leads to friends and classmates in college asking you “why did you put yourself in that situation”? It’s wrong because you can report it your school and they’ll just suspend the guy for a term because of this mythical “grey area of drinking.” It’s wrong because it implies that every single woman has to be 100% on guard at all times for it to truly not be her fault. It’s wrong because it results in tons of girls who have been assaulted after a night of drinking to just not report because of the stigma attached to not protecting themselves.
If a man is a rapist, he is a rapist. Point blank, period. There’s no excuse. If he didn’t rape a girl that night, he will later. And it and language like “hold yourself accountable for how you act around men” is just unacceptable. It further’s the current option that “it’s a man’s world, and you have to play by our rules.” How about we teach men not to take drunk women home? Or that if you’re drunk yourself and in no position to gauge a woman’s consent, put yourself in a cab. It’s depressing to me that we can give men the pass of “I was drunk, I didnt know” and not offer that same courtesy to females.
As a former crazy looking/acting middle linebacker built loud mouth…I’ve seen the fear that some women have described here. Eyes about to jump out of head if they don’t see you coming…women have literally looked me DEAD in my eyes and changed trajectory too many times. I meant them no harm…but how did they know that? I’m glad they were on guard…
Trying to be safe and still end up being sorry…that’s the story homie. Phone Liz before doing something like this again…
Don’t choose shock and awe for fame…
Liz:
Where is a blog that caters to 30+ y/o’s interests and maturity level. Today’s post and that reality tv stuff is not what’s up.
Trying to be safe and still end up being sorry…that’s the story homie. Phone Liz before doing something like this again…
Don’t choose shock and awe for fame…
This post definitely hit home for a lot of us. People don’t realize how much women are affected when our sense of security is ripped from us by no actions of our own. Champ hit on a small segment of rape victims but so many of us have been abused from the time we were kids. It isn’t that black and white. Period. Since VSB’s readership is getting bigger, they have a responsibility to truly think before they write. I don’t think that he meant any harm but…
Are you afraid of being falsely accused and convicted at some future point in time? Rape is not the correct course of action ever. Look, listen and process all of the pain it causes.
Just a thought… maybe someone else already said it but I didn’t read the comments…
If you got drunk, as a man, as many people do and brag about it, would you want to hear any defense from a man who raped you? That you didn’t say no does not cut it.
Protecting yourself is smart, but certainly not 100%. Some men just don’t respect you, no matter how much we fight, reason, or protest; it doesn’t get through to them. We’re not lying to you when we talk about the level of disrespect we can and do experience at the hands of men sometimes and this topic may be indicative of how unaware decent guys like yourself are of the way some men behave. It’s not just as simple as ” watch yourself” or “don’t date him”.
It just goes to show that no matter how smart a man is, how open-minded, and how many female friends he has, you will never fully understand what it’s like to be in a woman’s mind and live in her shoes, just as we’ll never fully understand the pressures of being male.
True dat. Here is one issue I have when it comes to discussions of sexual assault. I get that a LOT of women get sexually assaulted. My thing is that there tends to be a tendency to place a pox on all men’s houses. Considering that a small percentage of men rape, and a small percentage of that do most of the perpetrating, putting the blame on ALL men is almost as counter-productive as blaming the actions of the woman. Especially since so much of rape is acquaintance and intimate partner based, the typical guy isn’t in much of a position to be a proximate barrier to rape.
Simply put, while it’s dumb to blame women for their struggles, it’s not that bright to hit ALL men for their BS.
Todd, agreed but it is hard to not put that on every guy when the one you trusted with your well being (father, uncle, cousin, or boyfriend) was the one that did the attacking. So much easier said than done. If you can’t trust the first 3 i mentioned, you sure aren’t going to trust the rest.
I won’t hit all men for their b.s. but I do see why some women do it. I think it stems from women feeling like men don’t support them after they’ve experienced rape. It means a lot to some women to know that men care about their wellbeing and safety having been violated via rape.
In the old days, the uncles, brothers, male cousins used to go and kill the dude who raped you. Nowadays, you will either get sympathy, empathy, or blame for it…and sometimes the blame coming from men you respect and know can hurt. ..and it can hurt doubly if the blame is coming from other women. Rape becomes complicated because it is a crime where the perpetrators walk around and live their happy lives more than they end up jailed for a long time.
We have sex offenders allowed out of jail who go on registries. This can lead some survivors to feel vulnerable, and angry at men.
In the olden days and around the world… they didn’t kill the guy who raped you… they made him marry you. Or they killed you for being a fornicator before marriage or adultress after it. No matter if you didn’t consent.
“We’re not lying to you when we talk about the level of disrespect we can and do experience at the hands of men sometimes…” I think men get so tired of hearing the complaining that they figure that if we didn’t want to deal with disrespect, we would leave it alone. Not understanding that we are experiencing this from not only dudes who look like vultures but also from men who seem to be decent.
“It just goes to show that no matter how smart a man is, how open-minded, and how many female friends he has, you will never fully understand what it’s like to be in a woman’s mind and live in her shoes.” And this is it. A women’s safety is threatened every single day. I am not saying that we should walk around like victims but at the end of the day no matter how careful we are, we can be attacked and assaulted. This is something that men never have to fear to the level that we fear.
I am a long-time lurker, but this topic has drawn me out. I think the Champ’s article would suggest that women need to be educated on rape prevention and not place ALL of the responsibility on men, as is suggested in Maxwell’s article (probably stemming from the frustration of women being generously educated through the course of our life-time and no changes arising from our constant diligence). Maybe because women don’t often talk about the lengths we go to be careful, maybe because it is unspoken but understood among our circles, maybe because he hasn’t had an experience hit close to his home (or it hasn’t been voiced aloud) has he missed the mark. Among my friends, I would say that 90% of us have been assaulted in some way, and with many of us, it was before college or adulthood and never with some guy at a bar (boyfriends, cousins, fathers and the like). Granted there have been predatory moments at parties where a friend surpasses her tolerance and men swoop down like vultures–I think that is a valid point. But how can a man, an engineer in a button-down and slacks, have the desire to pounce on a woman just because she is vulnerable? Why is that seen as a great opportunity for intimacy? Are men that hard up that an instance such as this would be ideal, or brag-worthy? I think it is the rape culture that allows men and their friends to believe a woman is up for grabs just because she’s drunk. Having to tell a grown, educated man, who may or may not have said 3 words to a drunken friend to back up and stop trying to drag a girl to his car just because he see her in a situation to not be able to make decisions is ridiculous. Yes, she is drunk and yes she should have exercised better judgment, but no that doesn’t mean she is community property now.
Champ, the below, what you described as the “tone” of the piece, while that IS a dangerous statement, I am curious as to how you got that from the article. Like, I’m sincerely asking… what exact passage made you get this:
““men need to take full responsibility for their actions…and women have carte blance to act as recklessly and stupidly around men as possible without any trace of accountability.”
i think its a two front battle to stop rape and sexual assault. i do think we live in a culture that tends to blame women sometimes based on how they’re dressed and how they behave but truth be told a woman should be able to walk down the street in brassiere and panties and not have to worry about being sexually assaulted. why? because like your friend said men should know from the time they’re young that its not ok to take advantage of women (or anyone for that matter) physically or emotionally.
The reason ‘women and accountability’ should not be placed in a discussion about rape is because one has nothing to do with the other. Rape is an issue of power that the victim can’t control. And of course you’re thinking I know, I know, didn’t I make myself clear? But every time you said “but” in this article you negated everything that came before it. If you really just thought we should educate both men and women you would have left it at that, you wouldn’t have placed it in the context of rape. Totally inappropriate.
No one should be forcefully stripped of their opinions or subjugated to a mainline of thought.
However, Such is life.
I wish everybody well, for we are all God’s children and deserve forgiveness. Don’t allow people to chain you to condemnation by holding an unhealthy grudge against them.
I’m a loner, so what I think is barely relative to what y’all do anyway. With that, good luck.
Please STOP saying that men need permission to rape.
A rapist don’t need permission to rape. He decided for himself he was gonna rape, even before he saw what she was wearing.
Rapists will rape and FIND ANY JUSTIFICATION for their actions.
All a rapist decides is when they will act out their next intent to rape. That is it.
I don’t think that woman should be excluded in rape prevention campaigns. I also think the views of men and non-rape victims shouldn’t be excluded either. I know the topic can be more than a sore spot for victims of blatant rape, especially those who’ve not pursued treatment for their drama. However, a limited perspective may lend itself to blanket assignments of the victim, the aggressor, the category of sexual criminality and the solution. One size does not fit all, and blanketing even our language can cause as much harm to actual rape victims as dismissing actual victims.
The culture of sex and religion in America also crosses my mind on this topic. How many of the same people who would like to exclude teaching women prevention measures because of some belief that it’s ‘blaming the victim’ also preach the keep your number down, don’t come off like a whore, save the cookies for the prince, wait 90 days so he will take you seriously dating message? How many condemn burqas as a means to make women inferior while watching our most financially successful and admired female celebrities use scant clothing and sexual persuasion, even gyrating to make money (all still under the guise of being a so called good girl)? There’s still some unspoken expectation of sex as a currency for respect that is not being addressed in our culture.
Nonetheless, I think prevention is a useful tool just on a human level, just as a person, not a woman. What’s the benefit of excluding that from any man or woman? I can see tweaking it, but it needs to be there.
not that it matters…and it’s a whole day late, but…
drama = trauma
And the fact that you said “Fine Line” in the title. SMH. Ok, I’m done.
Right? I don’t think he even begins to understand how many of his reader’s he has slapped in the face by calling us silly wimmen drinkin’ Patron, letting loose… And how many MEN reading this he give a pass to… thinking he has their back cus what they do was ‘rape-rape’ just sex with a lil’ feisty resistence.
The only person responsible for rape is the rapist. Prevention should start with potential rapists. Its pretty simple in my head.
Now to find them. Got any ideas on a public service effort besides the “homey, check your boys” method? I’m not hating, but since rapists are a small percentage of the population, it’s a hard thing to do.
I agree. Someone said earlier, you dont know someone is a rapist until that moment. So what do you do?
But all men..and women for that matter…have the potential to be rapists. For any man who would say they’ve never raped anyone, there’s POTENTIALLY, POSSIBLY, a woman who would disagree. There are women who had sex out of fear of physical harm but won’t call it rape. Those men probably don’t identify themselves rapists. Especially if they’ve done it before. They just think they have to “show women they want it” or they may think that’s how sex is supposed to happen.
That’s the point of educating both men AND women on what constitutes as rape.
Todd, there are solutions and the one mentioned is a lot more effective than you give it credit for. A lot of what causes rape is our culture’s attitude about women, our attitude about power and gender in general. So something that seems trivial to you; “telling your homies that its not cool” is actually really powerful. If we begin to look at rape and sexual violence of any form as 1) a very big deal and 2) totally unacceptable, it may have an affect on people’s actions. As the articles mentioned, there are people who don’t even think that having sex with a woman who is too drunk to consent is rape. If we change our attitude about consent and question our friends and family it can be very powerful.
There was an organization at Rutgers, called Men for an End that dealt with many of these issues, and a lot of the conversation is around changing our attitude.
I don’t know what your era at Rutgers was (mine was 1997-2001), but it looks like they’re trying better than they did while I was around. The “Real Man of Rutgers” campaign was so badly handled that it was a sick joke…with real consequences, sadly.
The biggest issue with the “Check your boys” method assumes that people are being forthright to their own friends, or even be willing to hint at darker attitudes. Sadly, this isn’t the case until you see that your friend is now being implicated, and now you gotta see if you got hit with the Okey Doke as well. I’m not saying men shouldn’t try, but I also know it has real limits.
Let’s talk about the limits.
How do we get men to reject ambivalence (or even mild acception of) rape in a way that prevents rape?
I think a good place to start is by listening to guys who have, themselves, neutralized a sexual assault situation and have done so with everyone’s well-being at heart (not just because he doesn’t trust women). They’ve got solutions.
It would also be great to figure out ways to convince men that the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to confronting a guy whose attitudes lean toward sexual assault.
Work like this on the male side of the equation, combined with defensive work on the female side, while avoiding engendering mistrust of the other gender, would be great.
” How do we get men to reject ambivalence (or even mild acception of) rape in a way that prevents rape?”
Education about the laws on rape and sexual assault. Have them look in the eyes of women who are survivors who advocate against rape–by listening to them tell their story–and by speaking up about the effects of rape in everything from the individual, her relationships with others and society.
Discuss the history of rape in America and Black men and women who advocated against it.
A little know fact is that Rosa Parks was an anti-rape advocate at a time where it was dangerous for her to speak out against the rapes of Black women that were swept under the rug.
How would this encourage non-rapists to help stop rape? Specifically, how does it directly address the social dynamics of male-male interaction in terms of private discourse regarding potentially sexually abusive behavior?
Non-violators have already been exposed to the impact of rape on women and society. However, do these men know how to navigate/ address a sexual abuse situation when they are confronted with one?
This reference to violators and non-violators is kind of dehumanizing to the issue. We’re talking about people, some of whom have cross the boundaries (by an inch or a mile) of what is/n’t appropriate in sexual situations.
I don’t understand your point.
To address your point directly, I agree…”check your homies” seems like it would be as effective as abstinence based sex ed. What I would like the non-perps to understand is how ambivalence about rape comes back to bite you in the but. It affects law, sours gender interactions, fosters mistrust, etc. Focusing on what non-perps can fix/ do better is a good way to move forward. (sorry ladies, but “sit there and just listen to us prove that all of you are evil” is not entirely effective)
I avoided getting into this area, because Champ never dismissed the importance if this in the first place.
Men (and women) squashing the “she had it coming” attitude PLUS women (and men) continuing to take defensive measures are things that need to occur *simultaneously* to reduce sexual assault. No more blame-shifting dialogue playing up one side of the equation as more important than the other (Champ’s point). Period.
“Prevention should start with potential rapists.”
But then the question becomes, “What’s a potential rapist?” < — this is a dangerous question to answer because any specific answer would be pretty limited. Like people have said, they can be folks you know and/or are related to. Even those who had no previous history…
But the answer is simple: Anyone. We don’t like to think of it that way but it’s the truth. If we don’t reinforce the boundaries of what is/n’t appropriate, it’s easy for any one of us to cross a line.
“But the answer is simple: Anyone. We don’t like to think of it that way but it’s the truth. ”
Yup, that’s my point in response to “prevention should start with potential rapists.” ANYone could be. So I think this prevention should start with any and everyone. Everyone should have this education. There is not a certain group of “suspect” people you can put in a room and educate. This education needs to be universal. It’s scary, but true.
Exactly.
IMO, “anyone can be a rapist” should never be said without also mentioning that “anyone can be the person who stops it.”
But that is already implied since we’re talking FROM the perspective of stopping it. That’s where the “education” comes in…
“So I think this prevention should start with any and everyone. Everyone should have this education.”
THIS!
I did not have a drop of alcohol in my system when I was sexually assaulted. Not 1 drop.
It has already been stated NUMEROUS times that the majority of rapes in America occur by someone that the woman knows. Not some guy a woman just met at the bar while. No, it’s her uncle, it’s her cousin, it’s a close friend, it’s a co-worker, it’s a family friend, it’s someone that she has spoken to daily and/or gone out with. How is she lacking “responsibility” when being around someone that she trusts?
Rape is bigger than revealing clothing, drunken nights, and careless decisions. Step out of your box for a moment and realize that most dates that occur in the world do NOT happen on dates.
More than 400,000 women were raped in a 12-month period in 2006-07 in the Congo. What should they have done to be more “responsible”?
There are countless women that wear full length burkas in Afghanistan and still get raped by her own husbands. What could they do to be more “accountable”? In what way could a modest, fully covered woman “behave” better?
44% of rape victims are under the age of 18. These are children people. Children.
Every 2 minutes someone is sexually assaulted in the US. Every…TWO…minutes. I’d venture to say most of these people (not all women) aren’t walking around in drunken stupors throughout the day in mini-skirts and behaving promiscuously.
Children get raped. Men get raped. Women get raped…even the responsible ones.
Victims can’t prevent rape. Rapists prevent rape by not raping. Point. Blank. Period.
Re-reading the comments for this piece, I seeing that we’re constantl gritting on guys raping women. Let’s not forget that a woman can slip another woman roofies just as easily as a man can. Some women can overpower another woman just as easily as a man can. And seeing as how [some] women feel more comfortable hanging and going out with other women, it just may be a bit easier.
Good point, Nei Jae. In my HS, a girl got raped by another female. People laughed about that and didn’t consider that rape, not even females. That’s why I keep saying both genders must be educated.
And of course, there are cases of men being raped by women (though rarely reported due to stigmatization).
As many have said this is such a touchy subject but for those of you who have shared your story WE THANK YOU. That takes a lot of courage and to do it amongst strangers at that. Praying for all of your healing both physically and mentally and though it’s clear we will not all agree on how this topic should be handled maybe by sharing your personal experiences today it will cause each of us to try to view things from another perspective with a more open heart/mind.
The most ironic thing of all is that tomorrow it’ll be as if nothing ever happened on here.
That seems to be how things work with convesrations on this topic. All the women get mad and act like you’re Heinrich Himler himself, but once the convo is over, it’s all forgotten and you’re a swell guy all over again.
It suggests to me that the reaction to what Champ said isn’t totally about the substance of the post as much as it’s about daring to defy the party line stance/opinion when it comes to topics of r.ape, r.ape prevention and r.ape blame. The lashing out is about you having dared to say it at all. Because trust, there IS NO more sugar-coated way to say what you said, despite what you may think. You either broach the topic and incure the temporary wrath, or don’t.
I should say, there’s no more sugar-coated way to say what you said that would have made any significant difference in the reaction you got.
I mean, you can say this about any number of things. The Bell Curve, which holds that black people are natively less intelligent than other groups. Conversations around that issue always tend toward the vitriolic, as well.
But guess what? there’s a side in that conversation that’s actually wrong. the vitriol isn’t people being “hypersensitive” — it’s the presentation of a destructive idea as nuanced contrarianism, as being a reasonable and respectable opinion to have.
The Bell Curve was wrong because it could be proven wrong on a scientific basis. You don’t necessarily have to prove a set of subjective opinions “wrong”. Sometimes all it takes is to persuade enough people that you’re opinions have more merit. Clearly in this post, the ideas Zerlina stated have “won the day”, so to speak. But that doesn’t meean Champ was “proven wrong.”
Champ’s post dealt with some of his opinions and a certain point of view. The Bell Curve was debunkable pseudo-science. Champ didn’t appeal to facts, figures, stats or any studies. He (rather carelessly, and kind of naively) gave a set of counter-opinions to Zerlina’s.
And all of that wasn’t even my point. My point, as I’ve stated slightly differently in other spots here, was that there’s not really an agreeable way to say what Champ said without making many people angry. And because of that, you should either “do it or don’t” to quote Marlo Stanfield, and then deal with the fallout – good or bad.
What’s really ironic and sad and funny here is that people are preaching “take responsibility” to women but are catching fits when people here are holding them accountable for what they’re saying.
Ok, who is this Malik guy and why is he not running for President?
say WORD.
I am not going get into whether I agree the Champ or not because it’s not important.
I am of the mode that I have to take care of me. My mother said to me as a very young man something that has stuck with me and I often here her voice at times like this. She said, as a man with good-intentions, “Never believe someone’s power play. People will make you responsible even when they should be taking more control. This is most important in your relationships with women. You are a man and like it or not you are ALWAYS responsible even when she claims that she is.” She told me this when I was 12 and I didn’t start to understand it until I was about 15 and really started having sex.
Some may see this as sexist or even insensitive but this thinking has kept me out of jail, uncomfortable situations, and “You are the father” episodes. I think in the relationships between men and women there is a lot of grey area to navigate, perhaps even more so than the well-intentioned boy/man is ready for. So I eliminate the grey.
Per moms good ol’ advise I take it that I am responsible for all of the possible relationship dynamics as it relates to women. I am responsible for conception (If there is no birth control used it is my fault). I am responsible for safety. I am responsible for any reckless behavior, be it physical (if a woman hits me with or without provocation) or sexual.
In thinking this way I have some very basic rules.
I cross the street when I am walking past a woman while she is alone at night. I don’t want her to feel like she is about to be raped any more than I want to be made to feel like I could be a rapist. I did not participate in “trains” as a young person even in those cases when the young woman seemed to be chief instigator. I was never the dude dancing in or standing inside the circle where some girl was surrounded by a group of people. A smile on her face and pelvic thrusts were not reason to believe she wanted to be there. Get away fast.
I don’t interact with drunken women – even those that I know well I don’t do so alone. I’ve been called a punk and other things by women (single or in groups) who I refused to talk to when they are drinking/drunk. I’ll eat that.
I don’t go to bed with any woman that is not sober, I don’t care how long we have know each other or how much she may claim to want me at that moment. I can’t trust or risk that a woman might not decide to change her mind in the morning…. I cant leave it up to chance that she will speak up powerfully in the moment she decides she is not where she wants to be. During sex I ask before/during/after if it’s ok/are you comfortable/ should I stop/ does that hurt/are you exactly where you want to be? Every sexual encounter with a new woman must be preceded by a clearly stated in English “yes” from that woman in regards to her consent. “No” can’t possible mean yes because “yes” will be clearly stated by the woman or I am out never to return. To a woman living in 2012 with all of its dangers a woman should just get this and understand why “yes” must be stated. This might not be romantic but @uck romance…. I’m trying to survive.
And survival should be the number one objective of a man with good intentions. Because even a man with the best intentions is seen as wrong (nice try Champ).
I think talking to young men is the only thing to do. If their intentions are good and rape is not their objective then they have to do everything in their power to make sure 1) they are not rapist and 2) they are protecting themselves as much as possible from allegations that SOMETIMES can be far from their actual intention.
I mentor young men and I tell them that it is their responsibility to be responsible for where they are, who they are with, and what they are doing and they should always assume that the other person is not doing the same – especially when it involves the opposite sex – until proven otherwise.
http://upload.slightlymore.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/93a29064_Slow-Clap.gif
This made me kinda sad.
Considering all of the emotion here and the realities of us living in a world together I am curious. Why?
The rape survivor stories are heart breaking on a level that can hardly be expressed by someone who has never been through something similar. I didn’t know where to begin there so I didn’t.
Still, I find it sad that men and women have been forced to interact with each other like this and felt compelled to say it.
“This might not be romantic but @uck romance…. I’m trying to survive.”
Poignant. Non-violators and victims alike can be the collateral damage of how society addresses sexual assault.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Please google and and review most recent research. Sadly, more research on ptsd has been done because of the military than anything…same mechanics though.
This has to be the reason for the disconnect between men and women. Most men never go through rape and would never understand the emotional and mental toll that the violation causes. Therefore, the untreated life long complications can cause mild mental episodes throughout life…again, most men will never have these episodes and therefore will not understand them. Shout out to Iraq for showing me the truth…I was clueless before.
As a survivor, I was a bit hesitant to even read this article for fear of becoming upset. Just skimming the huge amount of comments though, I can truly understand most of the perspectivies of the readers – victims, male, female, whatever your connection is to the topic. While I wont get into all of the details of my personal experience or even my opinion, I will say that we really need to remain open to discussion and assume good intent (a concept that I try to use whenever I hear anybody say something seemingly offensive or ignorant).
Now dont get it twisted, I think this article should have gone through about 10 rounds of peer review before even thinking about posting. It was very insensitive and hurtful to read. But, I dont think this guy was trying to be malicious.
I guess my only point here is, lets not eat this man alive. He effed up (royally). Instead, lets try to educate him and others who may have a similar, misguided opinion.
Did ya miss the part where he doubled down on the ignorance and basically said… if you’re offended… get stuffed b/c I don’t give two fuxs and I don’t apologize.
Champ, please don’t allow for what your friend said to elevate your responsibility on the reactions you caused with this post. I understand where you were coming from but I think that you went the stereotype route where girls that are raped are the one’s that are drunk. For that small segment of the population, yes, they need to be more carefully. For the rest of the population (the majority of people who are raped) no matter what preventative measures we try to take, if someone wants to rape us, then they will try and most will succeed.
Since y’alls blog is popular, please be more careful with what you put out there–VSB definitely has that responsibility now. I agree that a dialogue needs to happen but this piece was written rather carelessly and it seems to have hurt a lot of readers. You don’t have to be sorry for what you wrote, but understand the impact of your words that were written–words that will be able to be read by many for hours, days, months, and years to come.
Oh, boo hoo, poor delicate men have to listen to victim stories and hurt women and feel guilt by association. Poor babies can’t take it if there is any suggestion that men as a whole might have some responsibility. Oh dear God, how are we to heal men’s poor delicate feelings? Guess what? Women deal with being blamed for everything on any blog that mentions relationships or gender. Every Fcuking Day. Get over it.
You’re right, men don’t have feelings. We forgot.
Really? This is a post about rape, and you decide to bring up your hobby horses? Especially when plenty of the comments are about women dealing with sexual assault?
Wow. Just wow. The mind boggles.
I think I and everyone here is aware how boggled it is.
hahahaha. boggle boggle. Ok, sorry. If you laugh at people they won’t listen to you.
But really men, this blog loves to blame a woman or just call us innately crazy. You could take a day to not argue, discuss, project or whatever and have some damn sympathy, especially on this topic.
Women never got blamed for Lorena Bobbit cutting off her man’s d*ck. But hey, you’re dealing with nice guys who actually want to have a civil conversation – it’s their fault. I have a whole lot of insensitive rape jokes, but I see the mood isn’t appropriate, however, if things get out of hand I won’t mind asking how many girls had playing in their heads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfhWdsmd7IE , while the sh*t was going down?
Except there isn’t any attempt at dialogue. It’s far too many guys preaching the tired old rhetoric that women should inherit the spirit and muscle memory of Bruce Lee and if they don’t they need to take “responsibility” for being raped. If any conversation wanted to be hand, there are several women today who have opened up with their personal stories. They have no been engaged. They’ve been given half hearted 5 words sentences saying “that sucks” and went back on their campaign.
One would think in the discussion of the topic where on person has experience in the area and the other doesn’t, we would be listening to the person that knows what happens. And seriously threatening to tell triggering rape jokes? You are a vile human being.
Those personal stories would be mostly entrees to sermons and lectures, which is why they’ve mostly been left alone. Which is also why this whole topic should haev been left alone. You get sermonizing/demonization on one side, and futility/insensitivity on the other (well, there’s been insenitivity on both sides here, but still.)
Bullsh!t. If you don’t want to engage because it’s an affront to the it’s their fault campaign than at least come out and say it forthright. There aren’t any sermons or lectures. These are real people’s lives that were altered because they had the unmitigated audacity to exist. The discussion of rape should always be broached. It has to be an actual discussion. It has to realize that all opinions are not equal and valid here. It has to realize that language is important. None of that is going from the it’s their fault campaign. It is the same intellectually vapid argument that because they are being “objective” in the discussion that their points are more valid than the people who have actually experienced rape.
I don’t call what’s happening here a discussion. This has become a battle, as it always does. Discussions don’t looks like this. Your idea of a discussion is for the men to sit down, shut up, listen to whatever is thrown at them, thank you for your time, and leave. That’s what you do in church, at a speech or when you’re being sentenced (at least that’s how sentencing looks on TV.)
A lot of men think that you should just roll with the punches and if you get hurt you’re a sucker or a loser. Well, like Muhammad Ali, I float like butterfly and sting like a bee. I refuse to sit down and be abused for what another man did, and if they don’t like it, they can find an undignified man who is willing to take the passive aggressive abuse…and trust me, they’re much more likely to find him, than prince charming.
Patently false. My entire point has been that “protect yourself at all times” is not a real point. There are FAR MORE male points of view regarding the discussion of rape outside of it is the woman’s fault if she gets raped.
And when some of those points of view have been expressed here they’ve been summarily dismissed. This is an emotional issue and logic is hard to apply to it without looking like an insensitive @sshole.
We’re talking about rape. There isn’t a single good reason to divorce logic from emotions. This impacts a lot of people’s lives for the rest of their life. There isn’t a need to be flippant about their emotions. Regardless, almost the entirely based on the premise “what if she/we are drunk” or “…but it’s still her fault”. You can color it anyway you like it but you’re minimizing the role of the rapist.
the idea that what’s “logical” and whose opinions get to be “logical” (and thus valid) is inherently gendered. Why should a conversation about rape — something that is an abstract idea to you but an actual lived experience to other folks in this thread — be dispassionate and without emotion?
what you’re asking for, again, is the right to hypothesize and speculate about an abstract idea without people getting irritated by your hubris.
(As an aside: The idea that we have big conversations — on race and its implications, on rape and its implications —divorced from our emotions is silly. We don’t do anything without emotion. Not choose careers. Not choose where we live. Not choose what we wear. All of these are influenced by our sentiments, by our experiences. )
Truth.com
If we don’t talk about the stuff we uncomfortable with, how we gon’ fix it?
Real talk, I think everyone is too triggered. When I’ve tried to engage people in how we can stop this, a lot of people went to the left with what I said. To the people who got it, thanks. But there are a LOT of disturbed folk around here.
You ever have a white guy tell you a horror story about something somebody black did to him, and asked you why are black people like that? Well, usually when that happens I assume that person is a racist, because he thinks all black people are the same. When a woman comes up to me telling me she got raped by a dude, and asks me why do men rape women or even worse tells me why men rape women…I view her as a sexist.
I view most of these women as sexist, and they do me the same favor as labeling me a misogynist, which I have no problem with. At the end I’m an individual and any woman or man who tries to rob me of my individuality, is going to think I’m a vile human being as well.
“You ever have a white guy tell you a horror story about something somebody black did to him, and asked you why are black people like that? Well, usually when that happens I assume that person is a racist, because he thinks all black people are the same. When a woman comes up to me telling me she got raped by a dude, and asks me why do men rape women or even worse tells me why men rape women…I view her as a sexist.”
Well got d@mn. I think a lot of people are going to miss this very strong point…or try to twist it until it no longer looks like the point any more.
The idea you’re touching on that men are a monolith, and therefore responsible for each others actions. When you see men as a mass of individuals, then alot of what they’re saying falls apart.
oh, dear God. this is some mighty fine straw-manning. most of the commenters who disagreed with the original post haven’t said “men-should-die-in-a-fire”…they’ve said that the original post is wrongheaded and that the Champ said a bunch of triggering shit. (Tellingly, few of the people who have cosigned the post have addressed any of the responses from rape survivors who took issue with the post. So rape should only be discussed by people who have no experience with it, I guess? We don’t want those hypersensitive women to get all butthurt when we trivialize their realities, AMIRITE FELLAS?????)
You accuse me of strawmanning, and then you proceed to strawman the hell out of what I said. That’s wild.
Let me help you understand where it comes from…
While getting relationship advice from an uncle not too many years ago I saw the bowels of manhood. This is going to be a VERY GRAPHIC statement…but is needed.
AND I QUOTE:
“that nasty azz ho3 had the nerve to lay there with that come in her azz”
I stopped him and said…”you put it there”. The man is in his 60′s and was speechless. This is the garbage that we are taught…yall lay there…we hump and bounce on to other things that range from other women/men to rims.
Shyt is sad…
Women need to be “taught how to behave” is why rapists get let off by juries. The rape stands in for the “lesson” in “how to behave” that she needs to learn. They can’t be mad at him! He’s gross, but he was just teaching her what happens if you drink too much!
Oh schnapp, you got Amanda Marcotte to show up at a Black blogosphere site and drop a comment.
Y’all major, now.
Hey, welcome to the blog Amanda. Pleasure to have an esteemed guest.
Here’s my thinking. Rapists are responsible for rape. It is a violent crime, and the perps need to be punished to the full extent of the law. However, rape, like other violent crimes, is targeted at the most vulnerable targets. Not only is it a gender thing, but there are other factors that make a woman more vulnerable to be targeted. Yes, the community needs to look out for vulnerable people and make sure they aren’t targeted. And we need to be especially sensitive to victims of sexual assault. However, the laws of self-preservation mandate that a potential target does what’s within their power to protect themselves. This does NOT make them responsible for whatever may happen. It’s taking care of yourself.
That’s my take. For more, feel free to scroll up.
No, Todd. All women are “the most vulnerable targets” because all types of women are raped. Women become vulnerable by being in the company of a rapist. Period, end of story. People compound the problem when they tell her she could have prevented it. Not only hurts her, but makes it more likely that rapists will get away with it. I don’t see how you can’t bring your mind around to understanding that despite the number of times you’ve been told.
You’ve missed that I’ve made it clear that the community (which last I checked is 50% male) is responsible for keeping the vulnerable safe. I’ve also made clear in about 7 different posts how men checking their boys is a necessary, though not sufficient, part of any sexual assault prevention strategy. I’ve also made it clear that the primary responsibility is NOT on the woman.
That you somehow got Blame the Victim out of that boggles. I’m more than willing to own my part.
I’m no longer boggled by it. It’s been happening all day.
“I’m no longer boggled by it, it’s been happening all day” +1 It’s sad isn’t it? And it’s interesting how they keep avoiding responding to you Anti-Cool because it defeats their theory that only a man could take that stance and its because of male privilege and yada yada yada. They ignore 19 great points on their way to dismantling and discrediting your perspective based on the semantics of one phrase. It’s so frustrating for someone that expects an actual productive discussion that I understand why a lot of men are lurking today and saying “yeah, I’m not touching that one with a ten foot pole”. It is what it is. It does make me feel a lil better that a couple of the women commenting seem to actually get what we’re saying, and get the fact that we also “get it” but they don’t seem to smh
Prevention is key. But for those who have had this happen to them to hear “what more could you have done” is insulting. No matter what logical explanation float around this topic, it’s emotional to those who have lived it.
Prevention is great when it works. But, when it doesn’t (and clearly,as many have attested to today, it doesn’t always work) what solutions can we explore that don’t involve asking the woman what preventative measures she took and then suggesting more. That seems to be what a lot of folks in disagreement with the majority have seemed to put forth.
I agree that we can all do better to prevent being a victim of any crime. But what I disagree with is the flippant tone of Champ on the subject and others who have outright said or alluded to the notion of “men shouldn’t have to take much caution, care, concern with this issue b/c it happens to females.”
Thank you. I’m pretty used to being on the “wrong” side of many issues between men and women. I expect that one of these days my V-Card is gonna get permanently revoked because of it.
every time I visit this site, I feel like punching my computer. every. single. time. I am just going to have to remove this site from my online diet. as hard as it was to keep reading beyond the pivotal “BUT”, I persisted since so many women that I admire, appreciate and love, frequent this blog and/or work with the people behind it. so…
“educating women how not to put themselves in certain situations?” <– This phrase here is paternalistic & presumptive. also, your hypothetical of the 110lb woman taking 13 shots at the bar is a rare extreme. nevertheless, even if a 110 lb woman decides to get drunk, in addition to the existing dangers that can befall her, we need to keep rape off that list. your hypo, and the tone of this whole piece presumes women aren't subconsciously exercising caution all the time as a survival tactic. SURVIVAL means going out with a group as opposed to alone. SURVIVAL means no overnight stays. SURVIVAL means checking in with your friends so they know you're alive. we constantly have to do so much just to survive because rapists don't come with a particular look. I think I only know one rape survivor who has ever been raped after getting sloshed at a bar. sure, that's personal experience, not qualitative research, but I wonder to what extent you've asked women around you what their sexual violence experiences were like.
Hmm Champ you really should have left this topic alone. No matter what a woman does, she can’t change the behavior of a predator. Men in our society are taught that a woman’s body is their property. There are men walking around who believe that they are entitled to inappropriately look, touch, or make sexually suggestive gestures to a women. Rape prevention classes should target men because they are the ones who are likely to rape. When apologist start making excuses as to why women get raped, we have a problem! There is never any justification for a woman to get raped. I don’t care if she is walking around butt naked! If you are in a sexual relationship both partners need to have a serious conversation about their sexual relationship and effective communication techniques of something goes wrong… A women should have the right to change their mind in the middle of a sexual act. A man should have enough respect for her to stop regardless of how he feels!
I love ya, Champ, but I can’t get with this post.
As a woman, I’m hyper-vigilant about where I live, how much I drink, who I flirt with, where I go alone (running, walking to the grocery store, etc.) because I don’t want to be attacked.
Despite being careful, I’ve had some scares. Last March, I got on the elevator in my apartment complex to let my linesister in the gate. It was daytime, the weather was warm, I was in a good mood. There was a young man about my age (mid 20′s) in the elevator. I stepped in. We were only going down 3 floors.
After floor 1, I turned to look at him because I could feel his eyes on me. I looked up to see him sneering, holding his erect thang in one hand a $1 bill in the other. I was horrified. Sickened. Scared for my life.
Lucky for me, we got to the bottom floor before anything happened and I busted all kinda speed records out of that elevator. I was in hysterics when I got to my LS. I had to call the police and be escorted back to my home. I’m 5’3, 135 lbs. I didn’t stand a chance against a 6’1″ 190 lb man.
And remarkably, I berated myself for weeks after getting in that elevator. For letting my guard down. “I should have known better.” I did nothing wrong, but my sense of security in my own home was shattered.
The guy kept lurking around. I had to move. Now I spend $400/month more on rent so I can have a doorman and security cameras tracking my every move.
This is just an example of why we all need to be sensitive about sexual harassment and rape when it comes to the victims. I was lucky. Lots of other women aren’t. We need to reinforce that it’s not their fault, no matter what the circumstances.
But how could you have done MORE to protect yourself? LOL
Seriously I’m glad you got out unharmed and didn’t have to live the other side of being victimized.
“All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — men always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to read women’s minds. women, on the other hand, can do whatever the hell they want — I got from Zerlina’s article, the comments attached to it, and the Twitter convo it sparked. And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.”
The problem lies in the fact that you interpreted a call for responsibility among men (men holding other men responsible) as saying “women can do whatever they want.” Zerlina does not say this in her article. In fact, she says, “Therefore, it is important for men and women alike to be very clear about their intentions and prioritize consent over the excitement of getting some.” Your interpretation of the article says much more about what you truly think about rape victims than it says about what’s actually in that article. It’s a bad look, but own it. It’s real.
basically.
A woman’s dress, behavior, alcohol intake, etc. has no baring on a rapist’s decision…if you understood that, you would have stopped writing before ‘BUT — ‘…
*bearing*
Is it just me, or does the gender dynamic in these posts (with a few exceptions) mirror the way (hetero) couples “debate” in relationships in general?
Her: I feel pain, you are guilty and you have no role other than to listen to me tell you how wrong you are. And you’d better listen, too. +0
Him: I have some logical non-emphathetic points, but you’ve been driven crazy by feminism so you can’t understand. I should have known better than to say anything but “yes dear.” +0
Her: So what you’re saying is [something he didn't say]. +0
Him: … +0
You kinda just nailed it.
And just like in most typical, relatively healthy hetero relationships, we’ll all move on in a day or two adn it’ll be all good, which only highlights how…insincere?…”for show”?…or maybe just kind of ritualistic debates around this are.
If anything comes from this post, hopefully it’s that people need to be educated on sexual assaults. Also, VSB needs to be more aware with what they write when it comes to certain topics. I don’t understand why Champ didn’t get Liz to read this before he posted it. But he said that he didn’t think that it would cause this problem so oh well.
Honestly I was really surpised Champ didn’t have a deeper/grander purpose in stirring this pot. I figured when he finally posted this morning he was going to reveal some ingenious angle that I’d missed or was too dumb to think of myself. Kind of like what we were looking for with the finale of Lost. And just like with that finale, it turns out there wasn’t anything deep about it at all – he just made a really bad decision on a poorly thought-out post.
It was careless but definitely the intention was not malicious. If anything, it shows the type of impact that VSB has which is a good thing. I think that they can now fully grasp how big their audience is. If this blog wasn’t “important” and read by so many, I don’t think that the reaction would have been so great (not as in good). But b/c we want to see this blog and it’s writers succeed, it’s like, do better next time–much better and don’t come off so all knowing and arrogant. Sensitivity helps. Think about your readership, think about the things you want to put out there, and don’t write something so serious in like 30 minutes. Take the time to write it and with something like this, have a few people read it so that you can flush out as much misunderstanding as possible.
THE IRONY OF IT ALL is that I am the one who published this. Champ was not near a computer and he called me at like 12:03 to publish his post for him. I logged in and hit Publish very quickly and blindly….not knowing this was behind it. SMH. Not that we collaborate on content like this….but maybe I coulda gave him a heads up beforehand. Who knows. All I know is, I couldn’t be bothered to read the post like I used to do here at VSB (checking for spelling etc).
Crap happens and mistakes are leared from (not saying that it was a mistake for you to not read what was posted but that more is expected from the authors on this site). Even with the disagreements, I think that a dialogue was at least started.
“which only highlights how…insincere?…”for show”?…or maybe just kind of ritualistic debates around this are.”
Insincere? Naw, the emotions around this topic are raw and real. Now the aim to actually solve a problem? That’s what’s questionable. I don’t doubt that people sincerely want to stop sexual assault. But what I do question is whether after a certain point this becomes more about putting up one’s dukes and defending one’s spot on the moral high ground.
This stalemate is hard to break in any discussion where one person is a victim and participation from the oppressive party is, ironically, required to completely solve the problem.
Defense of the moral highg round is definitely one of the big impediments, here. Maybe *the* big impediment – the thing that’s causing alot of the women to kind of insist that the men sit down, shut up, listen, nod in agreement, and go forth.
“we’ll all move on in a day or two adn it’ll be all good, …”
The weight of that part just hit me. The non-result that follows the stalemate makes the “discussion” even less worthwhile and ensures it never happens again (until it accidentally does). That is the final nail in the coffin of progress right there.
them females with their weird ladybrains! AMIRITE??? Up top!
dot dot dot.
Girl you know I’m a strong black woman who don’t take no ish from no ninja. They beta recognize before I beat ‘em down with my womb-wisdom cause you know I love him. Besties before testies and alladat.
yeah…no. :-/
Hilarious!
And spot on.
But, in this instance, the article was insensitive and a lot of the women that are commenting have been raped or know of someone close who has been raped. I don’t think that this is a laughing matter. I get your point but even some of the guys agree with the girls. This isn’t a debate about why men should share their emotions, this is a discussion about sexual assault. Many men have the reaction that women should do better so that they aren’t assaulted never understanding that assault can happen regardless of the circumstances that the person is in.
What is darkly and tragically comical is the way this discussion about something we all need to work together on is playing out.
Then the post should have been written differently which I think that everyone is saying. Including myself and possibly you.
That wouldn’t have made the outcome any different, really.
Nope, it wouldn’t have.
Maybe not, but at the end of the day, it could have helped. We want to talk about “preventative measures” and all so I think he should have taken to time to check his tone when he wrote it. Since he didn’t, this is the result.
You know what they say about an ounce of prevention…
Re: ” this discussion about something we all need to work together on ”
We can only take responsibility for determining whether a person is a safe person to work together on an issue such as rape with.
Not everyone listens and empathizes, and without knowing that they get it, their advice may not mean much if it is received as condescending.
“This isn’t a debate about why men should share their emotions, this is a discussion about sexual assault.”
A “discussion” about sexual assault that is being suffocated by commonplace unproductive and reactionary back-and-forth, which I illustrated in my post.
Royale With Cheese,
You don’t seem to be suffocated or silenced, as you are commenting.
Thank you. It actually looks like people are talking about it. That says a lot.
There is no discussion. It’s at least 99.9% of this is unproductive single-sided reaction.
Your response reminds me of how a woman who is yelling at a man might insist that they are having a “discussion.”
I’m sorry I cannot fking take it. I am sooo happy you are the only victim on here that can rationally discuss rape. I am more than happy to let you continue to revel in your a-typicality. it seems like it’s very validating for you. But lets not pretend that everyone responds to trauma the same as you do, lets also not pretend that those whom do not agree with a lot of what is being said here is not interested in a productive discussion of rape prevention . That is completely disingenuous and insulting.
I don’t agree with a lot of what you TAC and plenty of men have been writing here. Some points, yes I see. Others, not so much. However it seems that yourself and other’s are only interested in discourse with ppl whose opinions are parallel to yours, just as much as are the ppl you claim to be too emotional to contribute. Any attempt to engage in a discourse from different perspectives only results in a condescending blow off. In a subject such as rape, it is impossible to ask all rape victims to discuss this rationally. You have no clue how fresh their assault is, how much they have or haven’t healed, nor are you or anybody else in any position to tell them how to react to what has been said.
I’m not even going to touch on the fact that so much of yours and others sympathy seems to be extended to Champ, and the poor men who are being met with opposing opinions.
If anyone is interested in a productive conversation let’s acknowledge that this is a difficult topic, some may be more knowledgeable, and more emotional about it than others. So women need to take precautions- no newsflash but we got it, what other suggestions can we throw on the table? Why does asking for men to also take responsibility insinuate we’re relieving women of theirs?
“I am sooo happy you are the only victim on here that can rationally discuss rape.”
I can’t quite put my finger on it, but somehow I don’t think you are really happy for me.
bahahahahaah
I’ll be following Royal W. Cheese’s comments a loooot more closely from now on because she just demonstrated an exceptional level of rational thinking and objectivity about a subject that I would’ve given her a pass for being biased and too subjective on. I didn’t see the post where you revealed that you were once a victim of this. That really is awful, but I am VERY encouraged that you have dealt with it so well and don’t seem to hate men or feel the need to beat them over the head with the fact that they will never experience the world as a woman. Your intention really does seem to be seeing this thing from both sides and actually coming up with a solution for that. You ma’am have just earned a level of credibility with me that I can’t even put into words. I even borderline have a crush on you now lol, seriously though you had me nodding on like 5 straight posts, it was like overstimulation lol
ah, so “rational” means that it’s bullshit you happen to agree with. Got it.
Thanks bro (but I do wild out on the brothers sometimes…preemptive disclaimer). I guess that on this issue, I feel really strongly about getting men engaged in really helping to reduce preventable sexual assault. I also feel strongly about continuing to encourage women to protect ourselves when we can. I also feel strongly about attacks that are beyond our control…and turning prevention into a gender battle does a disservice to the unfortunate sexual attacks that have been hard to thwart.
I can lean annoyingly pragmatist on some touchy topics, including race relations.
Don’t bother MK. You’re interrupting their circle jerk. Cuz all victims who aren’t apologists and who don’t want to coddle men against the harsh treatment of rape victims who aren’t content with their lot, won’t be welcome in their party. Their logic means that only the clear level headed ppl who haven’t been party to rape can discuss it with a clarity. Like white ppl always know what’s best for us.
The level of self-delusion here is incredible. According to the resident experts, all the ppl sharing their stories on here are the problem. All the women and men, who on normal days are called very smart, today are uptight and oversensitive. Too emotional. Because they don’t know anything about their own experience. And even though their experiences contradict the traditional rape wisdom, thus spoiling the fun of the apologists and defenders, they’re wrong. Because apparently we aren’t taking enough responsibility for own our rapes. You know the ones we perped on ourselves.
Cheese- seek help. I’m not being funny or mean or sarcastic or anything. I’m serious.
“Cheese- seek help. I’m not being funny or mean or sarcastic or anything. I’m serious.”
Well, after I’m done peeling away all of the condescending layers to reveal some sincerity…oh, snap, down to the last layer and nothing’s left. :-/
I see that now. However unlike the aforementioned, I’m not here for verbal zingers, or to rack up p3nis pandering points. I have no interest in stereotyping all men, or pretending like women shouldn’t be taught how to protect themselves.
I’m not gonna sit here and read someone tell me an article that implicitly states
Therefore, it is important for men and women alike to be very clear about their intentions and prioritize consent over the excitement of getting some.” – Somehow constitutes a call for all women to behave recklessly.
I’m a black 27 year old woman living in Chi-fkin-cago, what on earth gives you the impression that I’m flitting through these streets unaware?
The point that I keep stressing that sooooo many ppl don’t seem to understand is that my concern lie with VICTIMS. I don’t give 2 dry fks about you. Not false claims of rape, not the chick from Cornell. Victims who have not came forward with their story, and could read this and get the impression that so many in our society will call their question into character if by chance they happen to get raped, or better yet have had a lapse in judgement and found themselves in a position that compromised their safety. I know everybody on the internet lives life in the Fab Lane, and never have lapses in judgement. But lets just say its human to make mistakes, for a woman to perhaps have one to many drinks, for a woman who consented to sex, but tried to ask her partner to stop once he became to aggressive and he didn’t listen so she just laid there till it was over?
^^^ These are the women who are marginalized , throughout this whole BS of a post.
Surely the infallible beings preaching hyper-vigilance can understand that we are incapable of perfection, so in the event a woman’s judgement lapses, what other methods can we implement to prevent her from being attacked? We need to teach men about the danger of “grey areas of consent”, just as much as we need to teach women to be comfortable telling her BF or husband no w/o expecting a repercussion.Maybe how to identify when these situations happen, and realize when its time for all parties to self-deport themselves out that situation. But honestly how often do we see campaigns targeted towards men that even discuss this effectively?
The reason why so many rape victims react so emotionally to reading ” women think they have the right to act recklessly” or ” you need to use common sense” or anything mirroring an insinuation that it is their fault , whether it be intentional or not. Its because THEY ALREADY HAVE FELT THIS WAY. They’ve already said it to themselves repeatedly.
For so many people to claim to really wanna roll up their sleeves and get down to a “real discussion” very few care to acknowledge the voice of the victims, or even attempt to touch on their experience.
thank you for this.
Yeah, completely in agreement with you on that one. VERY well said
I completely missed the “self-deportation” reference the first time. Well played.
Because they aren’t rapists or trying to be rapists. If they were rapists or ex rapists, it would be a different story. They have no responsibility since they aren’t the ones who try to use muscle or drugs to get some p#ssy. Most of the fellas on here are good guys who give a f*ck, and as always, the good guys usually have to deal with all the anger and frustration women have for the men who don’t give a f*ck.
So what’s wrong with wanting MORE good guys in the world by educating them on how to avoid situations where they may be perceived as bad guys?
Who wants to be a good guy, when they’re the ones who get most of the abuse, and the least amount of ass?
oh, shit. surprised it took so long for a Nice Guyism™ to show.
You hit it right on the head. I wonder whether men and women can ever have constructive conversations about similar topics. It’s like we get dug in on our point, one inflammatory statement gets thrown and then a retaliatory statement gets returned. Add strong personalities and writing styles into the mix and you have a contentious unproductive discussion reduced to hurling insults and both parties shutting down.
In both those cases, much like this post, neither party is actually LISTENING to the other.
If you hurt me, and I tell you you hurt me, you shouldn’t then give me some logical reason as to why I shouldn’t feel hurt…but I also shouldn’t callously dismiss your explanation that it wasn’t intentional and then say you don’t care.
But, alas, here we are.
Thank you for noticing that I wasn’t just criticizing one side in my fictional example.
@RG- +1- I’m exhausted at this point. I’m looking for posts that are productive at this point, I’m not responding to the others, because they ONLY want to vent, and not listen. I hope it’s therapeutic for them, but I’ve already addressed more or less EVERYTHING they’ve said so I won’t repeat anything.
@Deviant- Yep, that’s the pattern of disconnect that occurs over and over and over again with male/female interactions, especially within relationships.
” For all those saying we can’t have a real discussion about the issues, this is what real discussion looks like. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows. Everyone is not going to agree and it will almost always get heated. Real work is ugly.”
Real? Perhaps. Productive? Not so much. Too many people are talking at each other and not listening. Too many people are ignoring several amazing and insightful points to debate the semantics of one phrase and to use that to go off on a tangent full of examples that may or may not illustrate their point. It’s tiring and unproductive, but I’m sure I’ve at least opened some eyes out there and I know I’ve learned a few things and will be more understanding of the nuances and different scenarios where rape can occur and may be hard to fathom. It’s not an easy fight. For some reason I still think we as a society can and will make progress though…
…and now y’all jokers are patting yourselves on the back for calling the rape survivors’s stories “unproductive” and “whiny.”
hubris is a motherfucker.
Some of us are listening and learning, though. That’s still productive.
@Royale W. Cheese
for the WIN!!!
I’m utterly disgusted by some of the male responses to this thread. The level of insensitive and ignorance is beyond my comprehension. Rape apologist are always finding ways to blame the victim. I wouldn’t e surprised if half of these Negros still support people like R. Kelly because he makes goo music. I honestly believe that many men don’t care about rape victims as long as the act doesn’t hit close to home. Our rape culture in America has made people insensitive towards victims of sexual assault. Men are raised to believe they are entitled to woman’s body whether she consents or not. Look at most rap music. It’s extremely misogynistic and promotes hyper sexuality within the men. Men are encouraged to brutalize and conquer the women they sleep with in order to appear more masculine. I have low expectations when it comes to men sitting back and listening how women feel regarding the issue of rape and sexual assault. Men also don’t hold each other accountable for their behavior either. In fact many of them have the frat boy mentality when it comes to sexual experiences with women. I’m positive that every guy knows a male who has violated a woman in some capacity and never spoke up.
I love it when a woman show’s how sexist she really is. It’s a beautiful thing because sometimes I don’t believe women can be sexist, I buy the act; but every once in awhile women reveal their utter disgust for men magnificently, and I say; “Hallelujah my being an asshole is justified!” Thank you for this moment, because I don’t get it often.
To summarize your comment: men are evil and want to use and abuse women, that’s basically what you said. If I said women are evil and want to use and abuse men in any shape or form – I would fit the textbook definition of a misogynist. For that reason, I’m glad I got the opportunity to see a girl have an honest misandry moment, and I’ll cherish it, the next time I feel I’m treating women unfairly.
@2mques- I feel you man, but you gotta be the better person. Remember that she is only one individual and no one’s perfect. She is speaking out of anger and understandable frustration. We can’t get any empathy if we aren’t willing to give it. I understand why you say what you did, but you can’t be an *sshole based on what a stranger on the internet said. If you wanna be an *sshole just because then I can actually respect that more. Just be prepared to deal with the perks as well as the consequences of that lifestyle…lol
If she was like that all the time, I actually wouldn’t be an asshole to her. You see most women aren’t going to tell you they hate men, or think men ain’t shit, they’ll tell you that when they’re mad of frustrated, but they won’t tell you that from the start when they’re cool and unstressed. I’m an asshole because I want them to reveal their hatred for us, so that way we can come together as equals in our hatred for one another. I mean if I find out that this girl, legitimately has no hatred for men, even at her angriest, most bitter moment, she’s cool…I’ll treat her like Billy Dee Williams, but till that time I’m gonna be Darth Vader.
The reason why being a nice guy is a privilege to women is because being a guy who is willing to die for a woman, to give up everything he owns, built or accomplished to her, is a privilege (not talking about marriage) not a right, and most women think they’re entitled to that because we fall in love with them. That isn’t true: no woman is entitled to my life, even if I love her, I choose to give her that, and it’s more valuable than any thing she’ll ever be willing to give me. So me being an asshole is me protecting my most valuable asset: my good will and ensuring whichever woman receives it, appreciates it, something that’s extremely rare nowadays.
@2mques
That comment summed it up for me… Money!!!
So now I’m a sexist for speaking the truth about how our culture encourages some men to conduct themselves when it comes to women? So here is my question to you, are my claims false? if I’m speaking the truth then how does that make me a sexist? I’m not going to play nice when the issue of rape comes up. Millions of women have had they dignity taken because there are men running around who make excuses for rape.
You’re not sexist because what you’re saying is true or a lie, you’re a sexist because your comments show that you don’t hold men in positive regards and you don’t trust men. There are a lot of men, who think women are gold diggers and marry for money; the biggest complaint women have today when it comes to marry is that there aren’t enough men on their financial level for them to date…which kind of proves the original point that women marry for money. Yet, if I point that out, I’m considered sexist…and you know what I’ll live with it because I believe it to be true.
You should simply be honest and accept your own sexism; you’ll feel better.
Now you sound like an imbecile. My issues lie with men who use their privilege to harm others. My standards are high since I have quality men in my life who lead by example so try your poor attempt at psychoanalysis on someone else. Ironically I have never been raped or sexually assaulted but I have enough female friends and family who have so I stand with my sisters in solitary to fight against this evil that puts all women at risk.
I’m offended! How dare you accuse me of psychoanalyzing – I hate Sigmund Freud!
Yes, didn’t you hear? Pointing out that sexism exists, and that LOTS of men behave in sexist ways, is THE MOST SEXIST thing you could possibly do. It is a far, far worse thing to do to observe sexism than it is to act like a sexist.
Don’t let the sweeping generalizations distract you from the facts. Some of what she’s saying is valid because some men do feel and act that way. It may not be you but what holds true for you does not hold true for all men.
Making equally poisonous statements only perpetuates her stereotypes.
Really?
Let me not be a jerk smh
The problem women had with this article was that it was article where a man was making judgements on women’s behavior that he didn’t know anything about. Yet you’re giving me opinions based on what a group of men think? At least you can observe behavior…
Not think but feel***
@2mques for the win
It must have been hard for Champ and Panama to walk the line of telling women what they deemed to be universal truths while not getting much backlash. The tide has turned and backlash from their most ardent female supporters is now upon us. I agree with Champ and disagree with many of the female posters. There is a difference between a man going to far after a woman is butt naked in his bed after they’ve been dating for a month and a masked gunman sneaking up behind a girl walking home at night. There are ways to make the first fewer and further between and there are no ways to make the second fewer and further between. A lot of the women who are so up in arms are comparing apples and oranges. It’s not about blaming women for things that are not their fault it’s about women not wanting to face the consequences of making absolutely bad choices regarding their personal safety. Is the man to blame for taking the sex? YES! But you don’t get off scott free for downing mass liquor, getting butt naked in the bed, and letting him eat you out. You can not bring forth the sexual element into a situation and be innocent of every consequence. It is your responsibility as woman to not be sexual when you don’t want to be sexual. You can’t be 90% in a sexual environment and then act like the last 10% offends you.
Im, sorry but this kinda sound like the reasoning from perpetrators that don’t believe its possible to rape a prostitute. Did you men for it to come off that way?
That should be troubling to you. And typically for women who felt they’ve been raped, whether they consensualy went in the bed butt naked only to change their minds or not- feeling that you’ve been raped is consequence enough. And trust me, they will spend the rest of their lives, questioning their actions. But I’ll leave the task of shaming the further in your more than capable hands.
And ignoring this hierarchy of victims, speaking of apples and oranges, it seems like the women you’re referring to are not mentioned in Champs article, or the Ebony article . It seems like it’s not only the victim’s who statements are being effected by their experiences.
I know men who can walk away from such a scenario, albeit with blue balls, so may be more of a limp than walk
I think all this focus on the 90% of what the woman is “giving off” is taking away from the 90% of strong men with COMMON SENSE who could leave such a situation, throroughly pissed, but not bent on forcing themselves on a woman. Human decency should be not to intentionally deceive one another, such as the woman in the scenario you’ve described, but the rape being the outcome should never be a “you-teased me + opportunity = Sex with out consent” equation. That equation is against the law, simple as that, and as long as the woman, or even a man if he was being raped by a girl (hey you never know), has not given consent even in the 1% of that time, the rapee is indeed innocent of responsibility. Again, I have faith in dudes having COMMON SENSE in the 1%. Now being pissed about the tease is another matter entirely….
So a woman can’t just get some head and be done with it?!
Poppycock and shenanigans.
Eric you actually sound like a rapist with your logic.Basically a woman isn’t allowed to change her mind?
I don’t care what you try to call me on the shade. I’m not a rapist. I’m a realest and the reality is that tempt a person with a hard dcik all you want and hide behind, “It’s my body. I’ll change my mind if I want.” if you feel like it. But some men are not wired to accept your answer. You can call the police and convict every man that oversteps his bounds but you will never stop people from raping. You can’t stop people from murdering so how you gonna stop somebody from raping? The point is there are some situations you can’t control but some others you can control. Control what you can and the kind of situation that Delishes was talking about, she could control like her husband said (Which is how this whole discussion got started.). Maybe you women don’t understand looking out for your own safety like a man does. You all try to avoid getting raped which is tough but we walk around the city trying not to say, do, or be where we might get killed. Our whole life is designed behind walking the tight rope of living vs. not dying.Wearing the wrong color or team logo can get you killed quick in a lot of places. Wearing your hat the wrong way will get you killed in Chicago. Saying the wrong thing about someone will get you murked and we understand that so to minimize the chances of getting shot or beaten to death, we don’t wear certain things or our hat in certain ways and we keep or mouth shut and stay outta neighborhoods we don’t belong. That’s our daily existence. So I can see why someone would look at a woman and say “keep your panties on if you aren’t trying to get sexed. Don’t put yourself in a messed up situation.” I also see where a woman would say “that’s my right.” But I can walk through a Crip neighborhood flamed up in all red with Blood written on my T shirt and say, “That’s my right” to walk where I want wearing what I want and them dudes are not going to cut me any slack and chances are the will try to kill me. Avoid that type of conflict. If you aren’t interested in having sex keep your mf’ing clothes on and don’t do any halfway sexual stuff.
You sound exactly like a rapist. You mention your dick as if it were a weapon…
We shouldn’t tempt you to assault us? REALLY?
Rapes happen… so we shouldn’t try to stop rapes from happening? is that really the argument you made?
Champ, see the sickos you brought out the woodwork with your post.
Ladies, you just heard from this dude… if you are naked and in his bed… you have lost all your rights. You no longer are a fellow human being. His priority is the only priority. You have no say in what happens to you.
Sigh. At the end of the day, rape prevention (which rests solely on the rapist) and risk reduction (which rests on society) are two separate and unrelated conversations. The comments prove that always looking over your shoulder and being as safe as can be does not prevent rape. Only rapists prevent rape. The two do not belong in the same conversation. You choose to conflate the two, and you refuse to understand why your comments are problematic. I pray that one day you will gain understanding on this touchy matter, and that it doesn’t come only because you or someone close to you experiences rape.
Such a succinct and accurate explanation as to why this article is absolutely terrible (both in content and writing ability). We can basically erase like 600 of the comments and just keep this.
This is scary.
So let’s say I AM interested in having sex. But at some point during the encounter, I get scared, have an attack of conscience, or just flat out change my mind. Then what? Am I allowed to say stop?
I stand by my original opinion; not only do you sound like a rapist, I’m willing to bet money you’ve probably raped a woman before and justified it because she was acting like a “cock tease”
I’m happy your picture is posted on the internet for the world to see. Hopefully a woman you date one day comes across your ignorant rapist apologist comments and avoids dating you. God forbid if she turns you on but doesn’t want to have sex. You might just have to take it huh?
Sick bastard.
Hey! Genius! That’s not my picture. That’s Killer Mike. Secondly, pu$$y don’t drive me crazy. The vagina is not that big a deal to me. I don’t need “YOUR” vagina. I know enough willing women to get that from.
you can tell a lot about the nature of an idea by its cosigners.
this cat is riding with the original post.
i’ll leave it at that.
I think Champ should be frightened by your statement. “You can tell a man by his friends”, but I don’t know if these are the friends he’d want to claim.
Lol why are you trying to rationalize with these women man. You don’t understand, to these women their bodies are more valuable than your life. Eff everything else, think about what that means? Think about what that says about how they view you in daily living. Simply ask these women what’s worse: The murder of a man, or the rape of a woman…and you’ll see by the answers what you’re dealing with smh.
“You don’t understand, to these women their bodies are more valuable than your life.”
I’m sorry but this is the dumbest ish I read. How is us considering our bodies to be valuable enough and having the prerogative to change our minds about something detrimental or decreasing the value of your life? Please, enlighten me.
“No sense rationalizing with women…” I don’t exactly recall any of your statements being rational. Can’t expect us to rationalize there buddy.
If you understood the context, you would understand the statement.
“There is a difference between a man going to far after a woman is butt naked in his bed after they’ve been dating for a month and a masked gunman sneaking up behind a girl walking home at night.”
No, there really is not when she is violated, her body is violated, her peace is violated. It is still rape.
“Is the man to blame for taking the sex? YES!”
And that is what makes him a rapist.
Listen here…I didn’t say he wasn’t a rapist. He is. It’s not that he is not wrong. He is but does make a difference how the woman got to this place to begin with. A woman minding her own business walking down the street is different from a woman who says no after she disrobes and let’s a dude eat that twat. Then says “I done. I’m out.” Which is the story that Delishes told in front of her husband. That is a screwed up position for anybody to put themselves in. And if you don’t think context makes the difference in any argument you’re delusional. Canon of you females answer this question…Is it wrong to kill?
Listen here…I didn’t say he wasn’t a rapist. He is. It’s not that he is not wrong. He is but does make a difference how the woman got to this place to begin with. A woman minding her own business walking down the street is different from a woman who says no after she disrobes and let’s a dude eat that twat. Then says “I done. I’m out.” Which is the story that Delishes told in front of her husband. That is a screwed up position for anybody to put themselves in. And if you don’t think context makes the difference in any argument you’re delusional. Can one of you females answer this question…Is it wrong to kill?……… Yes? What if someone is trying to kill you and you kill them? Yes, it’s wrong still huh? What if you’ve been sent to defend your country in a war zone with an advancing Army out to kill you? No, that’s okay. That’s different………….That’s called context.
So how many times have you been in this situation… where you ‘ate some twat’ then forced yourself in a woman b/c she had it coming?
Never, cuz pu$$y don’t move me.
Dude, if she doesn’t want to f*ck you and you persist, that’s rape. If you’re already f*cking, and you try to stick it in her a$$ and she says no and you persist, it’s rape. That you think differently is very disturbing. THIS is why we need to educate people.
You’re acting as if I said it was right for someone to do it. It’s not right. But if you’re in that position don’t be over surprised if it happens.
So, really quickly… what do you say about a woman who is raped by her husband or her boyfriend??
Because this happens frequently.
Is it not rape because they’re in a relationship?
I’m not attacking you or anything, so I appreciate an honest, respectful response.
I am just checking back in and read the addendum to the post. When I read the post as left last night I was angry that here your were a VSB and even you didn’t get it. Last night I was heated that somehow you took Zerlina Maxwell’s post and added tones that I could not find.
I had to reread her’s and your’s today. Her post wasn’t perfect but I still don’t see where she let women off the hook. She simply suggest that we try a new strategy because the current one isn’t working. And you took that and said “But, why can’t both genders be educated on how to act responsibility around each other?” Which to me had the tone of a whine.
She said, “There are a number of men who do not understand what constitutes a “rape”…” I think the comments today support this statement. She suggested, that “men need to be at the heart of our tactics for preventing [rape].” But your “but, why” basically said to me yeah I’ll learn something as long as you have to too.
The ladies and I here today are upset because we have been taught, it’s a girl’s rite of passage from the time she has her first sleepover or babysitter. How much of information are you given? How much did you learn only today? Is it so hard to accept that men might need to be educated?
Of the men who have tap-danced on the line of impropriety, I wonder how many of you would be surprised to find that to her you crossed it. Wouldn’t your rather know that these rare (and they are very rare) false reports could never happen to you, because you were educated? How about to your son/brother/friend?
And where exactly in her article does she give women carte blanche to disregard common sense a la , “And, while the sentiment in Maxwell’s article suggests that victim-blaming is dangerous, I think it’s even more dangerous to neglect to remind young women that, while it’s never their fault if they happen to get sexually assaulted, they shouldn’t thumb their noses to common sense either.” She doesn’t let women off the hook. I believe she said, “Telling women that they can behave in a certain way to avoid rape creates a false sense of security and it isn’t the most effective way to lower the horrible statistics which show that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime.” And I agree with her, because after you have done everything they told you, it can still happen to you.
The line about, “Let’s stop teaching ‘how to avoid being a victim’” is because guess what? we already got that message. But men have to know that just because they say that it doesn’t apply to them (they’d never be a rapist) doesn’t mean they don’t need to understand rape, if only to not come across as insensitive when someone they know is a victim of rape. How do you avoid blaming the victim when you really don’t get it?
+1
“Is it so hard to accept that men might need to be educated?”
A poignant and very important question.
Who’s going to educate them?
Please see my initial comment to the blog post for my thoughts on responsibility for education. I am well aware that there is a need for sharing of responsibility when it comes to education, but the issue is that not enough focus is given to the fact that men need to be educated on how to react and reduce incidences of rape committed by themselves or people they come in contact with. the bulk of responsibility and blame lies squarely on the woman’s shoulders because we believe a man’s ‘urges’ are somehow uncontrollable.
Again, if you’re interested in my answer to your question, I believe I’ve already stated my thoughts in a previous post. I’m too lazy for double typing
Well, I do say with a tightened jaw that there should be NO topic that is NOT open for dialog between sexes, nevermind among a people. So Champ, you jumped into a challenging one and I don’t hate you for it. Dialog is good.
I guess what kinda hurt me, and yeah I said hurt, is this slanted viewpoint of this “freedom” that a women has in “flaunting her stuff”, drinking whatever she wants, etc, while a man has to sit and watch in agony (blue balls?), and restrict himself as to not succomb to his need to FORCE himself on her? That’s what I get from your post, and I don’t see the purpose nor validity in such a statement. Your statement was equivalent to calling this “free” woman the “bitch who deserved it”….may sound dramatic, but I get no less of that feeling from it.
It would be a different matter if you had talked about these women who go to clubs dressed scantily, but then complain about the “whistles” they receive, and them leaving the venue thinking “all men are dogs”. That would be a viable discussion. Or women when walking home at night should carry mace, just merely for the scientific fact that most men have strength advantages over a woman, so if they were approached by a male robber for example, etc etc…..but to imply women to have some role or responsibility in decreasing or preventing the likelyhood of getting raped?? Hurt Champ, hurt.
Also, I think you may have been unjust to men a tad as well….as most, almost all, decent and men with COMMON SENSE would know to leave drunk scantily dressed women where they are, and can “resist” commiting a rape for various reasons…..really….”resist”?? I think most men wouldn’t have a moral battle walking away from such a scenario….
Anywho, still wuv verysmartbrothas
Fall 2000. 19 years old. College sophomore.
English paper due @ 7am. Negative side of procrastination kicking in. Well lit, well guarded 24 hour campus computer lab. Engrossed in work. Time flies. Copy. Paste. Send. Print. Oh wow. It’s almost 11 o clock. She’s missed the last shuttle to my dorm.
“Excuse me, ma’am. Could you call campus security and let them know I need an escort to my dorm?” No problem. Escort arrives.
Call suitemates. “Hey, I’m leaving the lab. No you guys don’t have to come meet me, I have a security escort. We’re using a golf cart so I should get there be there in about 10 minutes.”
Golf cart. Cruising along. Talking about yesterday’s game. Suddenly, boom. Pushed off of the moving cart. On the ground. Straddled. A hand holding her throat. A hand ripping clothes. Black circles, dots, and tears swimming in her eyes. Heart pounding in her ears. Twisting. Turning. Swinging. Flailing. Kicking. Punching. Scratching. Crying. Screaming. Pleading. Nothing works. It happens. He runs. She can’t move. Her suitemates find her about 30 minutes later…..
…… my confidence, my trust, my self-respect, my peace of mind, my sense of security…..
I’m not asking you to talk about it. I’ve seen it. I’m not asking you to sympathize. I lived it. I’m not asking you to protect me. I survived it. What I am asking is that you not dismiss it. Don’t try to sweep it under the rug. Speak out. Speak loud. Stop encouraging behaviors that show tendencies of abuse. Stop ignoring the flashing signs. Be pro-active. Talk to your families, your friends, your communities. Most of all stop saying you understand unless you really truly and fully understand.
Wow, that’s…everything. That’s insane. It’s a disgrace. I’m so sorry.
You just made me cry. I’m so sorry that happened. I know it was a long time ago, but I know it still affects you to this day. Just sent up a prayer for you…
I am sorry this happened to you and I am glad you survived it.
glad you survived it. glad you had an opportunity to talk about it. not glad it happened to you.
had a similar experience. still makes me feel depressed when i go there. still glad God can use us in ways we never thought possible when we survive certain tragedies. i still believe in the goodness of men. i thank God for that too.
blessings……
peace be unto you, my sister. i admire your faith. my heart and my prayers are with you.
thank you for the well wishes and the prayers. i share my story hoping to be a positive example for those who don’t know how to keep living. yes, it takes a while, and that small bit of paranoia shows up every once in a while, but life is far from over.
Wow, Nei Jae. This event is just so effin’ tragic. I’m at a loss. Lots of love and prayers your way. xoxo <3
the thing is this: THERE IS NO “FINE LINE” BETWEEN VICTIM-BLAMING AND COMMON SENSE.
the title and fundamental premise here dangerously conflate two issues – rape prevention and the individual personal safety. extensive, substantive discussions can and should be had about one of these issues without a single mention of the other. insisting they should be discussed in concert or being incredulous when people bristle when a connection is made means you don’t understand that there is fundamentally no relationship between the two issues.
as such, the original post is disappointing and offensive (though, unfortunately, not at all surprising). the appended non-apology both adds insult to injury and reeks of gas-lighting. together, they reflect a pervasive sentiment that is THE reason rape culture is perpetuated. and be clear: rape culture that is delicately rationalized with benevolent intention is STILL rape culture. ignorance and/or privilege may explain why someone doesn’t fully grasp this but it doesn’t excuse or righteously defend it.
There will always be rape and rapists and we can only work towards making the occurances fewer. I think the backlash is absolutely unwarranted because you’re talking about human nature. The nature of someone who wants something that does not belong to them and will do whatever it takes to get it. Many women on here are using an emotional argument that doesn’t fit with reality. You will never live in a “rape free” society. Anywhere in the world, at anytime. There’s never been a “rape free” world. Dreaming of living in a “rape free” world is like dreaming of living in a “murder free” world. It won’t happen. The only thing any of us can do is to lessen the number of rapes. Because if someone really wants to rape you he or she’s gonna try it and they may even get away with it and there’s not much you can do when it starts to happen. If someone wants to murder you, there’s not much you can do when it starts to happen but you can do your best to avoid it. Unfortunately, that’s all you can do in reality.
rape is NOT human nature. it is RAPIST nature.
That person is a human. A bad human. A flawed human. But human. Funny how you didn’t say that murder isn’t human nature. While rape is horrible I think murder may be even worse.
@Eric McD- Exactly. There will never be a rape free, murder free, or deception free society, that’s why we have to focus on systems to make these actions much more undesirable to ppl who are wired that way (ie rapists) for whatever reasons. We could take it a step further and also try to spot what causes a person to become a rapist and reverse it at an earlier age, but I personally don’t think that will work, we gotta take other preventative measures and establish systems that deter this behavior and intimidate the intimidators so to speak.
@Scipio Africanus- Man you summed it up perfectly, I don’t know why I tried to bring any other perspective to this discussion. This was absolutely right
“It’s a choice that should be made with full consideration fo the the “discussion” will go. I don’t think any dude should seek sympathy for arguing what Champ initially argued (not that he is, I’m just saying). It’s an inherently tricky minefield, and any man born in the last 40 years has to know that by now.” Exactly, it’s a lose lose to open your mouth at all as a man. Sad, but true. I was shocked that he took it there, and knew exactly what to expect, I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part to assume they would get where I was coming from #shruglife
no, no, no. the point is not that a rapist is not a human. the point is that a human is not (necessarily) a rapist. i mentioned rape (as opposed to murder) because that is the subject of the post. but, similarly, a human is not (necessarily) a murder. it seems your characterizing rape (and murder) as some kind of natural progression of human desire. that’s false and dangerous.
woops…typo:
“…a human is not necessarily a murderER…”
” it seems your characterizing rape (and murder) as some kind of natural progression of human desire. that’s false and dangerous.”
But obviously it is a natural progression of human desire for certain people though…you and I both know that two different people who may have a lot in common react ENTIRELY differently when put in the exact same predicament. If rape and murder are so unnatural why have they happened soooo often in the last 10 years alone (forget how much more often they used to happen centuries ago)? I understand that you don’t want people to normalize such traumatizing and heinous behavior, but it’s not always detrimental to call a spade a spade. The world played out the way it did for a reason. Power, control, sex, ego, validation are all so heavily valued all over the world and different people seek these things in different ways. The natural progression for certain individuals seems to be evil such as dishonesty, cruelty, manipulation, betrayal, murder, rape, and any other dehumanizing act that is despicable. What can we do to stop them from reacting that way? Everyone has their own opinion but I have seen no theory be put into practice that seems to work everytime. So who exactly are you mad at? Why exactly are we pretending that rape is not natural to at least some degree even if it shouldn’t be? Even if we all agree that we should do all we can to prevent it and try to stop it from ever happening that’s clearly much easier said than done. So what solutions are you offering besides not victim blaming and targeting boys at a young age with the message of how serious and destructive the act is? I’m waiting…
“But obviously it is a natural progression of human desire for certain people though…” no, no, no. rape has nothing to do with desire and everything to do with power, control and violation. and it’s not natural or inherent, it’s learned/taught/conditioned. it seems you and i have a fundamental disagreement the same way eric md and i do. check my response to him below.
who am i mad at? i’m mad at rapists (those who attempt and those who complete the act), rape apologists, and rape rationalizers. and i don’t care if they are male, female, or transgendered. i can’t stand ‘em.
the only solutions i have are the two you pointed out … but if they are widely and consistently practiced with vigilance and love, they are incredibly effective.
Not a part of progression or regression of human nature only a part of human nature. Every thing that is natural to humans as a species is not positive to the development of humans. We do terrible things to one another that is natural to the deviant part of our nature. My point is that you won’t ever stop lying, theft, drug use, murder, rape,or any activity that one person uses to take from another person against there will. We will never be able to shame all of the Rapists into not raping. It’s in our DNA to take by force. We have adapted socially to suppress those feelings but we still do all of these things that we’ve been doing since the beginning of time. There are still pedophiles, rapists, and murderers in all cultures and since there have always been there’s a good chance there always will be because you can’t totally stop deviant acts of nature.
i understand that desire is part of human nature. i do not believe that the inclination to deny and defile another person’s humanity for the sake of satisfying desire is inherent in to human DNA. while i understand that there are humans who practice such deviant behavior, they are capable (with considerable effort and therapy, no doubt) of unlearning it and stopping it. and, we are specifically talking about rape. rape is not about “taking something that doesn’t belong to you,” to paraphrase your argument. it is about controlling and violating the person you are raping.
if you truly believe that rape is inherent to human DNA, you and i have a profound and fundamental disagreement about human nature. i don’t know how to reconcile that right now. but i do believe that the “we’ll never COMPLETELY get rid of rape because it kinda comes natural to us” is a sentiment that perpetuates rape culture and deconstructing and dissipating it is the key.
It seems to me that humans are genetically pre-disposed to greed and self-gratification.
Our desire for self gratification can be tempered through society’s efforts, but some folks are uninterested in that sort of socialization. They believe their desires, regardless of the type, are so important that whatever they do to satisfy them is justified.
And thus, they do things like rape other humans.
To me, that’s not a learned behavior, it’s an innate human trait that we have to unlearn. The manifestation of this trait as rape may have some grounding in the norms of society, but the root cause is something we have inside us as humans.
The best solution would be an increased effort to teach people that it’s not acceptable to rape women to obtain gratification, to explain all the ways rape occurs, to encourage women to be clear about their feelings and safe in their actions, and to severely punish those people who fail to fall in line, while being aware that an accusation does not automatically imply guilt.
that’s all i can see.
” We will never be able to shame all of the Rapists into not raping. It’s in our DNA to take by force. We have adapted socially to suppress those feelings but we still do all of these things that we’ve been doing since the beginning of time. There are still pedophiles, rapists, and murderers in all cultures and since there have always been there’s a good chance there always will be because you can’t totally stop deviant acts of nature.”
This point helped me to understand why I wish there was a death penalty for convicted rapes or an eye-for-an-eye law on the books nationwide that has to do with rape. I wonder what the rape rates would be if men knew that raping would result in their getting raped by someone hired to do so who is as larger than him as he is to the woman, man or child he raped.
I think that many survivors know that their rapist won’t stop raping. And I think a number of them have similar sentiments on what the consequences should be in order to reduce the rates of rape and stop convicted rapists.
There’s an eye for an eye policy for murderers called the “Death Penalty” but that hasn’t stopped people from killing. I guess it would be totally different for rapists. NOT!
now, THIS is something i can agree with you on.
The death penalty for rape…
I’ve always thought that the fact that women would make such a claim was an indirect admission of their own superiority. Basically, a woman’s body is as valuable as a life of a man. In other words, if a man takes a woman’s body, justice would be him losing his life, while she was still alive.
I agree with your thought.
So instead of giving him the death penalty we should allow the rapist to be raped himself….will that be fair?
Yep because rape and death are equally as painful.
seriously, what is wrong w/these people?
dude…
I’m glad some of them have pictures posted. It makes it easier to know who to avoid.
When people tell and show you who they are, believe them.
Thank you for this.
Ahh all y’all arguing about of stuff you don’t understand. If you want to know why men and women never agree it is very simple: women want security at the expense of men, and men want freedom at the expense of women. Women want security even if it involves a man losing his mind over the fact that she can take his house, his car and his company. Men want freedom, even if it involves women getting raped, sodomized, cheated on etc.
As a man, I want to be free to watch porn, say b*tch, listen to the most misogynistic lyrics by rappers like Uncle Luke, call a girl a hoe (because she didn’t give me no ass), and laugh it all off when I’m grown and have sons but no daughters…and if you get raped because of those things, oh well, I wish I could have payed for more Kung Fu Lessons or at least bought you a .44mm.
On the other hand, women want security and want the law and the government to either use schools, police or the courts to make sure that they feel safe, even if that means that a woman can whoop a man’s ass with a golf club, break the windshield to her man’s car, and when the police come up he’s the one who gets arrested lol. Or that a woman can divorce a man and take half of what he owns just because she felt like it. It doesn’t matter if you’re bitter, deranged or end up homeless, as long as women feel safe
This is why we fight, this is why we argue, and I wouldn’t have it any other way
” Ahh all y’all arguing about of stuff you don’t understand. If you want to know why men and women never agree it is very simple: women want security at the expense of men, and men want freedom at the expense of women. Women want security even if it involves a man losing his mind over the fact that she can take his house, his car and his company. Men want freedom, even if it involves women getting raped, sodomized, cheated on etc.”
lol, tell me about it. I was actually with you until that last sentence. I don’t want that to have ANYTHING to do with my freedom and it doesn’t. Women were getting raped loooong before my grandparents (let alone me) were born and they will long after my grandkids leave this earth. Rape numbers can be drastically reduced though, I’m confident that that can happen, which is another reason I’m focusing on finding solutions to this problem rather than talking about how emotional and traumatizing it is, because I already knew that even if I will never fully be able to relate to the feeling myself. That line about women wanting security at the expense of men and men wanting freedom at the expense of women was very true though. I won’t go on a tirade about that though…yet lol
I’m amazed that you’re comparing the fundamental right to freedom from sexual assault to divorce policies. OK.
I’m amazed that’s what you got from his comment.
Obviously, having read this entire list of comments, that’s not the only thing I got. But it is the most glaring. The (financial) security that women may want is not comparable to the overall freedom from sexual assault ALL people desire and deserve. That is something that is owed to all people, so it’s not at the expense of any one group. It’s a right! That’s like saying freedom from discrimination is at the expense of Whites. Sigh. Nevermind. You’re not trying to understand.
I’ve said it a few times now, and I’ll say it again:
As a guy, there’s no two ways to take the stance Champ and many of the guys here have taken.
You either take teh stance and try dodge the rotten tomatoes that will be thrown at you, or you denounce such a stance and just go with the party line on this.
It’s a choice that should be made with full consideration fo the the “discussion” will go. I don’t think any dude should seek sympathy for arguing what Champ initially argued (not that he is, I’m just saying). It’s an inherently tricky minefield, and any man born in the last 40 years has to know that by now.
if you REALLY understand that (1) rape is initiating sexual contact with another person without receiving definitive consent, and (2) a rapist is categorically, unequivocally and solely responsible for any act of rape s/he commits, then there’s no logical way you can introduce a rape victim’s “common sense” (or lack thereof) into a discussion focusing on rape prevention.
Had to de-lurk on this one. Like many of the women on this thread, I’ve also been raped….by my husband. And YES…it IS possible for a husband to rape his wife. I’m not sure how much more common sense I could’ve used when I would get into bed saying that I was tired and not up for it that particular night. No alcohol. No teasing. Nothing. Just telling a man that I knew and had children with that I was too sleepy.
While I’m fully aware that my circumstance isn’t the type that Champ was referring to, it’s articles like this one, attributing a lack of “common sense” of one to an act of violence and control by another, that create the type of attitude that my ex-husband had (since I was in the bed, sex was a given). I suppose “common sense” would have dictated that any night that I didn’t want to have sex, I should’ve slept on the couch?
Dangerous, dangerous words.
This is so important. Marital rape is often overlooked. It was only criminalized in the 70s and in some states there is still no penalty. In every state it is illegal,marital rape carries less time than stranger rape, which is awful because the betrayal of trust is so major. And ppl would rather talk about protecting men from false marital rape claims then face that some men rape their wives. Smh. Miss me with that attitude.
For all those saying we can’t have a real discussion about the issues, this is what real discussion looks like. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows. Everyone is not going to agree and it will almost always get heated. Real work is ugly.
This is what a stalemate looks like.
There is no winner in discussions such as these. A stalemate where two opponents gain mutual respect is the most you can ask for.
The women have basically zero respect for what most of the guys are saying here.
From some of these comments I doubt mutual respect will be gained from most of what has been discussed here. It was a nice try though.
The biggest challenge now is what the hell to write about for tomorrow’s post. Good Luck.
i hope Liz checked first before publishing it, lol.
Victim Blaming 101. This whole post is dildos. Womp.
The issue with Champ’s commentary is twofold:
A) Champ’s writing asserts that we should not stop educating women about street smarts and safety. What he and many others do not realize, however, is that women are constantly reminded to have common sense from a young age – so much so that when someone like Zerlina Maxwell writes such an article, it makes almost no sense to address the common sense issue because it’s already second nature. This is a blind sight in Champ’s and other men’s perspective and should be brought to light: women already know how to be street smart. There’s no need to say we should keep doing it; it is unspoken common knowledge within the female community. Because Champ is not a part of that community, his assertion that women should keep their “common sense” is ignorant and comes off as offensive. The issue many people have with this article is that Champ addresses the common sense as if it will lower the rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment rates, when this tactic clearly has not been working the way it should be. The probability of you getting robbed is only slightly lowered by locking your door – but you do so anyway. We know the probability of rape/sexual assault and how it works, but we do use common sense anyway, to bring us some small sense of comfort. Champ and other men need to understand that women do not talk about “common sense” tactics because they are ingrained in us already – so I’m sorry if that wasn’t apparent.
B) Champ also seems to imply that because we as a culture are shifting the education from men (usual perpetrator) to women (usual victim), we will somehow stop educating women about safety and street smarts. Let’s go back to my former analogy: educating women is like locking the door to your home. If you have an alarm system installed, will you leave the door unlocked? Not likely, as it’s an extra added precaution. In the same way, educating men on rape, victim blaming, and consent does not mean we will stop educating women in the same way (as I said before, it’s ingrained in our society to educate women from a young age about ALL dangers of the outside world). This comment by Champ comes off as a little presumptuous, but again, men don’t realize just how much women learn about precautions in their lifetimes, and we can’t attack men for being ignorant – we can only continue to educate them.
So Champ, I hope you understand where I took offense with your article and I hope you’ve gained some insight to the female community.
I’ve been trying to think of an appropriate (and expletive free) reply to this post all day. All I can come up with is this:
(in case that doesn’t work: http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2011/10/4e9dc53133cf4.jpg)
I think this was the first chuckle I had all day. Which is all kinds of sad.
OMG Thank you!
I don’t understand why this is even being brought up to begin with. Like, why do you think it’s even necessary to scold women about “common sense” behavior in a conversation about rape prevention? Common sense behavior, by your definition, consists of actions defined by a fear of being attacked. You may wish to dress in a way that makes you feel sexy, but you shouldn’t, because it will make some men believe you are public property. You may wish to go have fun and drink in a bar, maybe even a little more than is prudent, but you shouldn’t, because some men will take your inebriated state as license to do whatever they please to you. You may wish to flirt with and kiss your date despite being unready for intercourse with him, but you shouldn’t do that, because he may assume any sexual interest means you have given him consent to do whatever he wants to you, regardless of where you draw the line.
Women have no responsibility to live as trembling mice always anticipating a pouncing cat–most of us do that to some degree anyway, but that’s because we live in a fucked-up society, not because women have any obligation to be constantly vigilant against attack in order to avoid being “irresponsible” in our interactions with men. If a guy ignores a lack of consent, that is not a failure of female responsibility, no matter what the woman was wearing or how much she flirted with him or how drunk she was. Guys are not expected to be mind-readers, but to do some basic things like stop if the woman says “stop” or seems scared or reluctant. If you’re not sure, maybe ASK HER IF SHE WANTS TO STOP. Or, if she’s drunk or high and there’s some question of her ability to consent, err on the side of not raping her. Phrasing these kinds of basic sexual precautions (making sure your partner is a willing participant) as some kind of new and miserable burden on men is pretty odious, dude. Boo hoo, you might have to be thoughtful about your sexual partner’s well-being, what a chore.
I think all the information in your second graph was important and practical and any wise man who is sexually active would be smart to heed them.
Conversely, I think your first paragraph bordered on naive. People can’t do what they want and be safe. Not because they are “asking for it” but because other people are evil. Evil people do evil things and unfortunately the presence of evil people in this world means that the rest of us have to take certain precautions and exercise restraint. It’s why we have car alarms and locks. People do the wrong thing and it’s wise to adjust your behavior to prevent problems. Even that might not keep you safe, but it’s still wise to do.
I’m really disturbed by the amount of women stating that his is a topic that men shouldn’t speak on or address. How are we supposed to educate both young men AND young women with out both sides being involved in the dialogue. I honestly think this whole education process would be more digestible for young man when hearing/reading/being exposed to such knowledge by the men in their life.. and where would that come from without a male perspective (note I didn’t say male-centered)?
Furthermore, I actually see and agree with what Champ is trying to say in this entry. It’s not enough to villanize the rapist and say “Rape is bad”. Rapists rape, no matter what, but no matter what we women want to believe, certain factors make some women more “attractive” to rapists. That’s just reality. And I’m not even speaking just in terms of clothing or being intoxicated… though these come into play just like woman’s size or whether or not she is alone would.
There needs to be more focus on opening a more positive and inclusive dialogue regarding the victimization of women, and less of a “This is our struggle that you know nothing about” rhetoric. Free thinking and rationalizing men are not the enemy. There’s no condemnation of rape victims implicit in this post, but rather a discussion of the role of personal responsibility and common sense in ensuring safety across the board. What about the man or woman who gets shitfaced drunk and gets robbed? Would people be as inflamed is Champ was emphasizing these then? Of course rape is much more vile and damaging than this scenario but at base, lack of common sense and responsibility led to victimization and that’s what I understood when I read this post.
Champ whats good son.
I just read/heard about this firestorm here. I don’t think you were wrong in writing this, but this topic falls into the “dont mention it” category, because like your friend said, anything other than “rape is wrong” was going to get you roasted.
Some topics it would probably be better if men dont touch. Its bullshyt, but its a slippery slope. pause.
Keep your head up fam.
alright, I will jump in (I’m a lurker). I think, champ, that a majority of ur post seems to be abt that rape we call “gray rape” or date rape or whatever category we give it. The rape that gives college campuses and prosecutors the blues. Why? Because the victim doesn’t seem like a victim and the rapist seems like a good person. Here’s what I think and understand as a victim advocate for women and men.
if you have had alcohol and he victim has alcohol, it can still be rape. The chance you take is that the victim does not feel violated and doesn’t come forward. So whether or not you know the person or not, you (male or female) take that chance. Think of your body like a weapon (again, male or female). Use it and weild it carefully. again, your partner doesn’t have to be sober, but anyone takes the chance that their partner can say foul. And if they were drinking-it don’t matter.Does it suck? Sure. The same way we encourage victims not to chance it and drink responsibly, the same way others need to make sure their partner is sober enough to consent.
Finally, what makes it so hard I feel for men is the association with “rapist”. It seems like an ugly word and conjures images of some huge ugly beast harming tiny women. This isn’t true. The scary thing is that it can be anyone-women included. What happens is that if when we recognize ” gray rape”, then otherwise good men feel their image is called into question. “Wait, I go to church, I pay taxes, I wear a bow tie and you mean to tell me that just one time I had sex with a woman and she was drunk I’m a rapist. I’m no monster!” You right, you are not a monster. But you did not have consent-ergo you raped them. Drunk ppl can’t consent to contracts (verbal or written) and this includes the consent to sex.
Think of it this way,
The amount of energy it takes to defend oneself in court for possibilty of rape is greater than the energy it takes to say, “not tonight-you seem a little off” if you can’t have sex without that person getting drunk, why would you want it anyway?
Dear Champ,
I know that I dont comment on your page often, but I do read and generally like your post. When you are on other blogs like MN and give advice I read, usually agree and laugh. I applaud you when i see links to your page on websites like the root.com because i think that means that you are doing big things and are getting the respect you deserve.
All this is to say that i cant support you any longer. I think i would have been able to shrug your original post off with a “he’s a man he doesn’t really get how awful it feels to be raped, then blamed for said rape.” and checked on what VSB had to say tomorrow. What i take issue with is your insincere and condescending apology. It would have been better off without it. That apology was like Rick Santourm saying I said Blah people not black people but if that is how you took it I didnt mean to offend. It was a non apology and a slap in the face to the women who come on this page and support you and your en devours. The fact that you, someone I do admire, did that is….ugh i just dont know, its like when a kids hero gets busted for drug possession or something, it makes me really sad. I wont share my story on here because that’s my business and I choose to keep my demons to myself. I applaud the woman who had the courage to speak about their horrific experiences, it makes you stronger than a lot of us who can’t. Ladies keep your head up. sorry VSB but this is one click that you will no longer get.
VSB OG (or OC…. I dunno…. its been a minute since I’ve been here) in the house.
I’m not going to get argumentative for arguments sake. A lot of people have already made my points for me.
So I guess I’ll just tell my story.
This is hard and I’m going to cry… but if I don’t do it, then people won’t understand.
So, obviously I was raped. I was 19. I was an RA and it was Senior Week. I was on call for the dorms because they were used as housing for parents during Commencement Week. A couple of my other friends and some actual seniors were still around campus. There was a group of guys we knew that were having a party at their apartment, and since there was no class and nothing else to do, we went. It was me, one of my best girlfriends and two graduating women we knew casually.
Three guys resided in the apartment and a few more came over. It was a small gathering, but there was plenty of alcohol. I was drinking. A lot. Talking a lot of s**t about sex… even thought I’d only recently had sex for the first time. Everyone was. I still remember the song that was playing when the lights went out. It was “Hip Hop” by Dead Prez. To this day, I still can’t listen to that song without getting sick to the pit of my stomach.
I needed to go to the bathroom. I asked and one of the guys grabbed my hand and I felt myself being pulled toward the back of the apartment. I thought he was just leading me to the bathroom through the dark.
We go in a room and the door closes behind me. When my eyes finally adjust, its a bedroom, and there is another man in the room. They ask if I want to participate in a threesome. I’m drunk, but not that drunk. I say no. When I realize exactly how dangerous the situation I’m now in is, I sober up almost instantly and ask to be let out. One of the guys says fine and opens the door as if he’s going to let me out.
Except he doesn’t. He slams the door on me and I’m left in the room with this other man. I’m yanked by my hair and tossed on the bed and he’s crushing me with his weight. I kick, I scream for my friends (who were looking for me at this point). I fight.
And I get raped anyway.
This happened in 1999. I didn’t mention it to anyone, not even the girls who were with me at the time. I don’t say anything to anyone until 2003, when one of the girls I was there with graduates. She said she’d heard about these guys attacking women… it was just casual conversation…. until I broke down in tears in front of her and told her what happened. By that point, they had all graduated and moved on. And probably forgotten about me. I never reported it for so many of the reasons that were listed as “errors” I made. I’d been drinking. I was being a tease. I was talking about sex. I was alone with a strange man.
I still haven’t forgotten about them. I never will.
You know how hard it is to live with something like this? Every further intimate relationship I’ve EVER had has been colored by this. Men I’ve loved have had to endure my flashbacks during sex… when my mind goes back to that night and the next thing we both know, I’m shaking pile of tears, looking at him like he’s hurt me… even when he hasn’t.
I can’t sleep near windows. I can’t even sleep peacefully when my husband isn’t home. Coming home from the gym in the winter, when it gets dark early… its scary. Being in a parking lot where there’s not a lot of cars, even in the daylight, is unnerving. Its hard to live like this. You just learn to cope. You go to therapy. Talk to people. Learn to re-wire your own brain.
Because someone thought they had rights to your body.
Do you see how your “preventive measures” tack can make a victim feel? THIRTEEN YEARS AFTER THE FACT?
I hear you. I hear your pain. I hear your tears. I understand. Peace be unto you, my sister.
Thank you for sharing, I know that was hard.
thanks for your story.
You are so right. x 1,000. This whole thing is so cray. I’m really in disbelief still.
I’d tell you to say it again and hope it doesn’t fall on deaf ears.
My heart goes out to you, BlackBerry. I…just…thank you for sharing.
“Boo hoo, you might have to be thoughtful about your sexual partner’s well-being, what a chore.” —This right here.
Long time lurker, infrequent poster here…
It seems like some folks are ignoring the simple premise that just because you “can” do something doesn’t mean you should. In other words, I “can” pilfer a couple bucks from my co-workers desk because she leaves her purse around in the open all willy-nilly. Should I do it? HELL NO! I’m not gonna do that because a) I’m the only Negro at work and I know they’re gonna look at me first if something did come up missing, and b) IT’S WRONG! I mean, damn…why is that so hard to understand???
Why can’t we apply this to rape/sexual assault? If a women is too drunk to consent to sex, then physically you “can” take advantage of her. But the bigger question is WHY SHOULD YOU OR WANT TO? Why is the onus on the person who’s been violated, not the person who’s committing a very unethical and immoral act?
I’m frustrated because this is so simple to me and yet it’s not spoken in conversations about rape. I, like many women who commented on this post, am a rape survivor. It was committed by someone I KNEW and yes, I was completely sober. He was bigger and stronger than me and easily overpowered me, but did that mean he SHOULD have done it? Absolutely not.
I am always late to the party but I will post anyway.
I think that in cases of gray rape–it rings so close to home, and in fact our bedrooms. When we realize or learn that our partner only has to be inebriated but they smiling and making doe eyes and saying, ‘yes,’ then suddenly you become a “rapist.” And in our society, rapist = monster, subhuman, not-fit to live, devil worshipper—anyone but me. And to that I say, you aren’t any of those things if you have been in that situation and not the victim. I will share this advice that a wise attorney shared with me and a mixed group of men and women in college.
If you choose to have a little martini with your sex, that is your choice. But you also risk that your partner who had the same martini and was inebriated will wake up and feel violated and unsure about what you just did. That person (whether they were moaning, aroused, etc.) was not able to make the consent. And if in the morning you wake up and feel like that decision was not made entirely with your consent, then you too have the right to speak up for yourself, too. Think of your body like a weapon. Weild it carefully.
As far as Champ venturing into this convo–I say good for you. Often times, I feel that we as woman lose potential allies if your immediate thought is not aligned to what it is deemed the socially scripted response. Meaning, you can’t be a advocate, ally, supporter of victims if you don’t staunchly breahte this oath. I feel if that is the mindset, then we do lose out on a lot of conversation and growth.
What I want to talk about is why consent is seen as cumbersome, disruptive, etc. to having sex. When we teach sex ed, we never teach kids to ask their partner, “is this okay? can we do this?” because even we as adults think it is embarassing. We can talk all day long about “laying pipe” or getting the juice flowing, etc. but a simple, “you wanna do this” always seems out of the ordinary. If you are half as conscious about wearing condoms, think about consent as that extra layer of protection. This is the convo that we need to start having. Victim-blaming or self-defending is not going to get us anywhere. In America we think we have arrived because we can show “sex” on tv…that ain’t nothing. Come to me when you can be a real adult and ask another adult if they wanna have sex. I sometimes wonder if some adults don’t ask because they are afraid of the answer…
You know the saying, “it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission?” yeah…this is just not one of those occasions!
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“Racial Responsibility,” And The Fine Line Between Racial Profiling and Common Sense
_____________________________________________________________
By Captain Obvious
****Part II of Incredibly Offensive and Condescending Series****
Racial profiling is an incredibly difficult problem in the U.S.
I agree that it’s never the fault of any Black man who finds himself at the hands of the Blue gang, beating him senseless. It’s a vicious and racist attack and a violation of constitutional freedoms and bodily integrity.
To make matters worse, there is a horrid incarceration rate in this country. Black men are more likely to get charged and convicted with crime. And the criminal justice system is out to get them.
In no way should my statements seem like they are putting the responsibility on Black men not to get beat.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTT…..
Ya’ll Ninjas need to not go outside after dark and not expect to get a Rodney King special. You think it’s all fun and games… going home from work, to the grocery store, and whatnot… in your fancy car… but that just signals to police to stop you. Don’t get a nice car, that is just making you a target… but also don’t have a crappy looking car, that also make you a target for them. In fact, your best bet is to only go back and forth from home to work on foot, in pairs (BUDDY SYSTEM), and back with your head down and not making any eye contact with white people. Stick to this plan, and you will be just fine and not likely to garner unwanted attention from the police. Also, you should really work on some common sense and stop acting so black and maybe they will not pull you over. Turn down that music. Put on a sweater vest, it works for Herman Cain.
It honestly gets to a point where… you have to ask yourself, if I was a police officer? Would I stop me? I mean, I *do* look like the SUSPECT… the suspect is between 5ft and 7 ft… male… black. THAT’S ME. What was I *thinking*… driving around.
Amadou Diallo should’ve known that a wallet looks EXACTLY like a gun at night and the police did what they had to do to protect themselves. It’s not justified, PLEASE don’t make the mistake in thinking so… but it’s understandable, amiright?
Moreover, what are you doing drinking? Out and at night? Don’t you know what police think when they see you being drunk and having fun… They think you are a criminal and will pull you over. It’s YOUR responsibility to not be out at night seen having fun. Have your fun at home.
Furthermore: Why ya’ll gotta be committing all those crimes? I mean seriously, if ya’ll didn’t want to be jailed at such a high rate… why do crime and not expect to get the time? You think you have the right to just be outside living life like white people and not get stopped… well, NEWFLASH, we live in a racist world. White people don’t have to worry about getting beat by the police, YOU DO. You have to cater your behavior to what makes white people not feel threatened enough that they call the police on you. By being out there… dressed and talking like a ninja, you incite their fears and they have an uncontrollable urge to call 911. So don’t be surprised when they drag your lifeless body out of the dumpster the next morning.
I’m just being a friend by pointing this out. If more ninjas just stayed home… there would be less racial profiling. Isn’t that obvious? I mean, come on! EXERCISE SOME COMMON SENSE and don’t agitate the white folk.
Annnnnnnd Scene.
Brava.
Yes, great performance.
Cheese,
Take a seat; in fact, take a whole stadium of seats because I murked Champ’s wildly flawed argument with his own words. And you know it.
A stadium. How fitting. Where’s the concession stand?
Do they have nachos? I like nachos.
Nachos? Please don’t inspire an Arizona Immigration Law analogy, Act II.
So…you’re a mind reader too? Good to know.
It’s plain to see that you’re just bitter about being flat-out WRONG about a lot of shyte here. Hey man, it happens to everyone. Just let it go.
***7:40 edit***
(I left this as a comment below, but I wanted to attach it to the end of the entry as well.)
So, although I realized while writing this that it may be a touchy subject, I admittedly underestimated exactly how potentially explosive it was going to be to suggest that racial profiling can be stopped by a few simple actions. I read some of these responses and I’m genuinely shocked at the level of anger and hurt this entry has caused to suggest that Black men look like criminals, (they do, lets be honest here) and police pick up on this. I really did not expect this to happen. And while I don’t apologize for expressing my viewpoint, but I do apologize about being so flippant and not being more careful to articulate exactly what I meant to convey. Considering the subject matter, leaving lighthearted suggestions about not to get your face smashed into the pavement and such…
Anyway, as far as the actual article and responses, my intent wasn’t to imply that any Black man who gets a vicious racially charged beating should be held “accountable” for what happened to him. I also realize that the majority of beatings are done by just a few cops who have a grudge against Black people— making it almost impossible to defend against, and in no way did I want to spread the message that staying sober and out of shady situations is all a Brotha has to do to avoid being racially targeted by the police.
All I was trying to do was respond to a theme — Police always have to be hyper-vigilant, hyper-careful, and possess the ability to suss out savage criminals from upstanding citizens . Black men, on the other hand, think can do whatever the hell they want — And, I still believe that this is a dangerous way to approach things.
I’m aware that all the education and conversation in the world about learning how to protect yourself and stay out of harms way and properly vetting the police force isn’t going to prevent racial incidents. A Brotha can do all of that and still get beaten to a pulp. I’m also aware that the onus of responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of the police officer, and no where else.
But, my whole point is that police AND Blacks need to be taught how to behave around each other, and I don’t see how saying that suggests that I think Blacks should be held responsible for their own beatings. Perhaps I’m being too obtuse, tone deaf, or insensitive, but I just don’t see the connection between “everyone should be educated and learn how to take responsibility for their actions” and “being singled out for crimes is the Black Man’s fault”
Had I done this over again I’d probably just stick to talking about Illegal Immigrants.
OMG and the edit was even more genius. My Gawd. Thank you, I soo needed this laugh.
That was awesome and so are you! Waiting for cries of “but that’s different!” in 5…4…3..
+100,000,000,000
Spot-on. SweetSass, you are on point with the comments. I thought of racial profiling and driving while black as a counterpoint to this, and I wonder if this comparison will enlighten any of those who are just not GETTING why Champ’s post was infuriating.
This is the BEST! LOL, I have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard.
Sweet merciful Jesus… ALL OF THIS
Clearly you’re suggesting that the entirety of Champ’s post was ridiculous, and this reply by you was meant to put that ridiculousness into stark relief, as a foil.
Only thing is, probably 70% of what you just typed is exactly what black people, especially black men get told and take to heart. So it’s actually not nearly as ridiculous as you’re implying it is, which then means your attempt at a foil doesn’t really work.
Pretty much.
Really? Who says this and isn’t immediately villified and executed in the sphere of public opinion by the black commenting mafia. Bogus. The Root, Grio, and Black Voices Huff-Po would go nuts.
And ya’ll would be up in arms about how bogus it is to suggest Black men are at fault or should stop being criminals… Hypocrites, all ya’ll.
His post was extremely condescending and obtuse.
Those are the things any wise black father, grandfather, uncle, older male cousin, or neighborhood father-figure is going to impart to the younger black males in his life. My father more or less told me most of that stuff.
Now if a white person made this post, it probably wouldn’t go over well at all, and there would be an internet melee, you’re right. But that’s moreso about refusing to let an outsider (white person) come in and tell us something intimate about how to navigate the world.
In other words, it’s not the substance of what’s said (most black guys have heard most of this and believe fit to be sound advice) but about the credibility of the messenger (your uncle vs. some random white person, hypothetically).
“Now if a white person made this post, it probably wouldn’t go over well at all, and there would be an internet melee, you’re right. But that’s moreso about refusing to let an outsider (white person) come in and tell us something intimate about how to navigate the world.”
Um, hello!!! That’s exactly what’s wrong with this post. An outsider (a MAN, fully wrapped in MALE privilege) is telling woman Captain Obvious stuff about how they should take “responsibility” for not getting raped. That you have failed to pick up on this speaks volumes.
Which means it wasn’t about substance of the message, but the identity of the messenger.
And do you actually go to work on foot in pairs (buddy system and no flashy suspicious car) and don’t make eye contact with white people…
Then how are you ‘taking this to heart’? What do you do to mitigate being pulled over for driving while black? Whiteface? What?
First of all I mentioned that it was most, not all of what you wrote. Secondly, you’re using cops and white people interchangeably for no good reason (and I noticed that when I read it through the first time.)
I don’t exercise that kind of caution around white people, no. But around cops?
The book I linked to below actually discusses the fact that the fewer men there are in a car, the less suspicious cops will be, on average. It talks about how a man driving in a car with a woman and children, or with senior citizens, is seen as very safe at one end, while three or four young men in a car that’s out of place for the neighborhood (a hoopty in Greenwhich, CT as well as Rolls Royce in North Philly) will catch cops’ eyes.
And I actually think you get the walking in pairs thing backwards. Men are seen as bigger threats when they are clustered together, especially younger men. Walking around solo, especially dressed in workplace casual attire, or with a suit on, is probably going to read less suspicious to most cops, than if you’re walking around dressed like Jim Jones, especially late at night.
And as far as the mitigation, lots of “yes sir, no sir”. Being mindful of your tone when the cops is talking to you or asking you a question. Not necessarily cowering, but kind of stroking the cop’s ego. Al cops want to be seen as authority figures worthy of everyone’s respect, and the get off on that sir stuff. Keeping your hands on the wheel. Not wisecracking or being a smartalek.
None of this is a guarantee, we know. But if you actually do any of that stuff, you’re kind of begging most cops to take the traffic stop to a different level, and I think the average cop would love to oblige that.
heh.
This site is eating my replies. Just trying to see if this one gets stuck in moderation too. I had so much good stuff in response to you! I’m drained and don’t feel like typing it all out again.
Interesting point. Sweet Sass’s post has got to set some kind of record for the World’s tallest straw man.
While the point stands alone as a great analogy for arguing against apathy toward sexual assault, there’s no fair connection with Champ’s post, IMO.
The fact that people of color internalize racism and that women like TAC internalize rape culture does not make racism or rape culture any less ridiculous or problematic.
Haaaaaaamburger, this guy even wrote a book about it!
http://www.amazon.com/Arrest-Proof-Yourself-Ex-Cop-Reveals-Arrested/dp/1556526377
Ha. Awesome.
Yeah, but it’s not about racial profiling it about getting arrested… legitimately… ie. the police have probable cause.
Fail.
Even so, he’d be a d*ckface if he was suggesting you just kowtow and accept getting brutally assaulted by police.
Actually the book deals with the fact that the cops can fuck with you even if you haven’t done any really wrong. The book advocates deferring to the cops when they’re in your face, even if it makes your blood boil. The point is to get through encounters with the police in one piece.
I think the point is you can’t arrest-proof yourself any more than you can rape-proof yourself. If a cop wants to bring you in he’ll find a reason. Just like if a guy wants to rape you, he’ll find a way.
Right…. so…. telling a woman to exercise common sense pointless (and obvs hurtful) because… a rapist will just find his way the ‘common sense measures’….
So you just repeated my argument.
No. Some situations that end in rape cannot be avoided with so-called common sense. But some can. Acknowledging the former does not negate the latter. That is what I have been saying all day.
How can they be avoided with common sense when you just said that common sense measures won’t stop a determined rapist?
GIRL, you are DIZZY as heck with your illogical and contradictory arguments.
(1) “Some situations that end in rape cannot be avoided with so-called common sense.”
(2) “But some can.”
“Acknowledging the former (1) does not negate the latter (2)”
There’s this really cool word in the English language called “some”, Sweetsass. It allows one to distinguish one subset of cases from another.
You choose to ignore where right above it she says you cannot rape-proof yourself and that if a rapist wants to rape you… they will… no matter what you do.
So you’re deliberately ignoring the word “some.” Okay.
The two statements are still diametrically opposed. The word ‘some’ has nothing to do with it.
You cannot logically believe that one prevent rape with common sense… and also believe… a rapist will find a way rape you no matter what you do.
+1
Since you seem to be kinda slow I will break this down…
Lemme flash back TWO SECOND AGO when you said:
“you can’t arrest-proof yourself any more than you can rape-proof yourself” & “Just like if a guy wants to rape you, he’ll find a way.”
These statement….
Contradicts….
This statement: “Some situations that end in rape cannot be avoided with so-called common sense. But some can.” [Sic: be avoided with common sense].
And since you clearly are dealing with some serious unresolved anger and resentment that is clouding your own comprehension I’ll just let this lie where it is. Good night.
Omigosh, no sh*t Sherlock… I’m angry because I just saw a post insinuating that if I had exercised common sense I’d be less likely to be raped when I was.
Yeah. No way anyone could be rightfully angry at that….
Your anger has nothing to do with me or my comment and you know it.
So now you’re a mind reader? Good to know.
Don’t have to be a mind reader to guess that you might be upset over something a lot deeper than this post. Not saying you wouldn’t have a right to be either. It’s why I didn’t engage you much throughout the day. You still seem very raw to me. But, if I’m wrong and reaching, if you can get this angry over some comments and opinions on a blog then I don’t know what else to say. See you in the next post. Or not.
What happened to the edit button?
Anyway, I’ve also been saying that there is no way to prevent rape from ever happening ever. That would be impossible. So striving to rape-proof oneself would be frustratingly futile. But the risk can be reduced and therefore it can be avoided sometimes. And just because someone got raped in a situation that was avoidable doesn’t mean s/he is somehow at fault. It’s not about fault or blame imo.
It’s late and I don’t know if I’m making my position clear. Oh well.
What is clear is that you keep shifting around your positions… none of it is logical (maybe you need a menz brain to connect the dots for you)… none of it is cohesive or makes sense at all. Hence you wanna edit your comments… Give it up… why all this p*nis pleaser, stand with rape apologist brigade action? Are you *that* desperate to feel like one of the boys that you would minimize and denigrate the experiences survivors like myself on here who honestly shared our survivor stories and gave our heartfelt impressions and reactions to Champ and other neanderthal’s posts?
I shed a single tear of joy: SweetSass is really a complete asshole. I’d call you a b*tch, but you’re way past that. Look at you completely demoralizing a member of your sex, because she passively agrees with men. I mean Valerie Jean Solanas would be impressed.
We aren’t seeing eye to eye now but I wouldn’t call SweetSass an @sshole or a btch. She’s been hurt and she’s lashing out. I get that but I will not be her whipping boy because of it. I don’t know her like that.
You need to stop. it. Right now.
SweetSass isn’t a b*tch. She’s a woman who has shared her story and gone above and beyond to try to educate Damon Young and others on this thread all day.
Who are you (or The Anti-Cool) to attempt to “diagnose” her as a woman with anger issues? That takes unmitigated gall. And so what if she is angry? So many women have a reason to be angry. Her anger is righteous. Sometimes that can be the one thing that helps you survive situations that SweetSass and others have experienced and been so kind as to share with an audience that holds those who are empathetic and beyond dismissive (such as yourself).
Fall back.
@Mondy’s Baby
YOU fall back. I specifically said I wouldn’t call Sass a btch. And I acknowledged her right to her anger. Not that she even needs my acknowledge ment. Just trying to be fair. But if you got through all these comments and didn’t sense that she has some deep issues and is lashing out unfairly because of them then okay.
@ Monday whatever
Ah shut it. I’m gonna say whatever I like, and all you can do is respond or shut up.
I haven’t minimized anything. Just because what I’m saying doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean it’s senseless. I was attempting to be clearer in a last ditch attempt to get you to see what others, and not just men, have been seeing. I shouldn’t have bothered. You’ve personally attacked ANYONE that hasn’t agreed with you today. What happened to you was wrong and terrible but I didn’t do it and shouldn’t be typed to as if I did. Whatever. Do what you’ve been doing all day and apply your selective comprehension to this comment too.
@TheAnti-Cool, the b*tch comment was directed at 2mques. But I was addressing my comments about SweetSass’ anger to both you and 2mques. I stand by my previous comment in which I said it takes a metric ton of nerve to tell someone who has been sexually assaulted and/or raped that they have deep-seated issues. Guess what, she’s entitled and can work through them at a pace of her own choosing. She has autonomy (which her assailant did not respect). And quite frankly, some of the commenters and the original post deserved to be “lashed out” at.
SweetSass is entitled to be angry, and she’s entitled to be an asshole because of it. But everyone has a right to respond to her “righteous anger” with anger of their own, and I have exercised my right.
+1…this is everything. Don’t know if I should laugh or cry!
I don’t usually post–please free my comment
As I read comments by many of the males here, I keep thinking of MLK’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail. These excerpts in particular:
“Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial “outside agitator” idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.
“I had hoped that the white moderate would see this need. Perhaps I was too optimistic; perhaps I expected too much. I suppose I should have realized that few members of the oppressor race can understand the deep groans and passionate yearnings of the oppressed race, and still fewer have the vision to see that injustice must be rooted out by strong, persistent and determined action. I am thankful, however, that some of our white brothers in the South have grasped the meaning of this social revolution and committed themselves to it. They are still all too few in quantity, but they are big in quality…unlike so many of their moderate brothers and sisters, they have recognized the urgency of the moment and sensed the need for powerful ‘action’ antidotes to combat the disease of segregation.
“In spite of my shattered dreams, I came to Birmingham with the hope that the white religious leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause and, with deep moral concern, would serve as the channel through which our just grievances could reach the power structure. I had hoped that each of you would understand. But again I have been disappointed. I have heard numerous southern religious leaders admonish their worshipers to comply with a desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have longed to hear white ministers declare: “Follow this decree because integration is morally right and because the Negro is your brother.” In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churchmen stand on the sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities. In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard many ministers say: ‘Those are social issues, with which the gospel has no real concern.’
“Yes, these questions are still in my mind. In deep disappointment I have wept over the laxity of the church. But be assured that my tears have been tears of love. There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love. Yes, I love the church. How could I do otherwise? I am in the rather unique position of being the son, the grandson and the great grandson of preachers. Yes, I see the church as the body of Christ. But, oh! How we have blemished and scarred that body through social neglect and through fear of being nonconformists.”
None of the women here are blaming you or calling you rapists, or even saying that you personally condone rape. But if you are part of the silent majority, just like the “white moderate,” you are part of the problem. Like G.D. so eloquently put (I think it was G.D….AMAZING comment by the way), we are dealing with a power structure here, and face it, men are in position of privilege. Change does not happen until the privileged and the oppressed form an alliance and make it happen. Educate yourselves, educate your brothers, and actively stand up for what’s right. That’s all the women are saying. Forget the fact that they’re “emotional” about it (and um, who the fcuk wouldn’t be? If you can’t feel it, read those comments as if they were written by your daughter or wife or sister), and go back and really pay attention to what is being said. Please, for the love of God. Thank you, and much love to all of yall.
http://www.vawnet.org/applied-research-papers/print-document.php?doc_id=1655
Some findings on different targeted rape prevention strategies. Overall, a very thorough study (although, to be honest I’m just beginning to read it…I skimmed it earlier) that cites other sources and bodies of work.
For what it’s worth…
Lol, I just realized that this post was made on a site where probably 80% of the regular commenters are women. This post was destined to turn out exactly the way it did.
Yeh Champ forgot his audience, and started talking the way he talks when it’s just him and his boys. I guess the big story from this post, is that even though it’s 2012, women still aren’t ready for “locker room” conversations. Most of the women’s comments isn’t about proving Champ wrong, rather it’s about shaming him for even have such an opinion.
This is why I stay being an asshole, it’s locker room mentality 24/7, that way I’m never taken aback by how hard women attack me. I’m like Mike Tyson: “My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I’m just ferocious”
“This is why I stay being an asshole, it’s locker room mentality 24/7,”
And on an interpersonal, non-messageboard level, they’ll respect and like you ten times more for doing this rather than just parroting their views back to them. That’s the irony.
Those “locker room conversations” are part of what we call RAPE CULTURE. They need to stop. Men need to start holding each other accountable for reinforcing the sexist culture that teaches that women are property, that men are entitled to sex, that you can’t rape a prostitute, that a drunk women is yours for the taking, and on and on. Next time you are in one of those locker room conversations, try telling your bros that that rape joke just wasn’t funny. Until you start doing stuff like that, you’re still enabling rapists and rape culture.
+1,000
All hail Caesar!!!
“It has been proclaimed that all men shall be banned from laughing at jokes that offend women; all non-gay men are now ordered to report to sensitivity management so they can receive their training in how to have fun and how to laugh without making women uncomfortable!”
“Yeh Champ forgot his audience, and started talking the way he talks when it’s just him and his boys.”
If this is how you talk with your boys, God help you. This coming from a woman who wasn’t attacking Champ’s post to begin with, though could have, but I opted to look at his intention as well as the result.
God help us! Amen hallejuah.
God help men who are willing to say whatever is on their mind, even if it might offend a lot of people. Better, they be like the passive-aggressive racist who never calls a black man N*gger but thinks all black people are a burden to the human race, and deserve to be eliminated.
True. But I still appreciate it for what it almost was.
I think there are actually more guys on this blog….They just don’t want to get in the crossfire of this particular post.
I broke my own rule by getting in this post in the first place. I smelled the freshly baking bread from across the street when this post went up last night and I had to come in here and get a slice for myself. I should have done like the other guys and just stayed out of this.
This entry shouldn’t have left the drafts folder, honestly, unless it was to say “No means No” for either of the sexes–because men can be raped too.
No means no. Non-consensual sex is NOT tolerated at all, and as adults we should all have the sense to know that. Period. No matter the circumstances, the neighborhood, or the state of inebriation.
Everything I type goes to moderation. Using a different e-mail to see if it still happens.
758 posts later and the blood pressure in here is still high.
As a woman, I refuse to believe that I am POWERLESS and cannot lessen the odds of getting rape by making a few smart choices. I accept that I am vulnerable and I could get hit upside the head tomorrow and dragged by my hair to some shady apartment where some man has his way with me….but I refuse to believe I am completely powerless. To claim powerlessness is to claim defeat and this is why when I’m a mother I will never tell my daughter and even my son for that matter, that rape is something they can’t control. We are a strong as we allow ourselves to be.
I hope everyone has a good night’s sleep.
Thank you for this. You have a great night as well.
Thank you so much for this. Hope you have a good night’s sleep as well.
okay, so let’s go beyond the platitudes.
how, specifically, will you tell your daughter that controlling rape is within her power?
Actually, anyone who agrees with her should feel free to take a stab at answering this. I’m honestly curious.
“I’m honestly curious.”
I don’t trust you.
Actually, I think something I stated upthread is a fitting response, so I’ll give it a shot. I was taught at one point that just because a man thinks I’m pretty, doesn’t make him entitled to my body. This made sense to me and encouraged me to say no, forcefully. This has kept me out of several preventable sexual assault/ sexual bullying situations. I would instill the same in my daughter.
And because I predict people will go there…if she were a victim of assault and tried to blame herself, I’d tell her it’s not her fault, and that it is still important to keep being careful. It wouldn’t make sense (and would be dangerous) to suggest that being careful is useless.
Unfortunately, I have been assaulted twice in my lifetime, but that does not make me any less thankful that I was able to prevent some preventable cases.
I have seen close friends place themselves into very compromising situations. I just want everyone to do as much as they possibly can to stop sexual assault from happening. That is why I feel that any language even remotely suggesting that one party does nothing, is dangerous and turns the discourse into a useless gender war.
Well said. Maybe you should write my comments for me.
Guess what, the guy who stops doing something when you say No… is not a rapist, he is a normal functioning human being. The guy who does not stop when you say No is. Explain to me how you prevented anything by saying No to someone who takes No for an answer? And you can pat yourself on the back all you want… but that is the reality of the situation.
smh
Right, because if he takes No as an answer he isn’t a rapist and you didn’t prevent a rape from occurring. He understands that you do not consent and accepts it.
The rapist doesn’t care if you say No. He doesn’t take No for an answer, because he doesn’t accept the fact that you do not consenting. There is no way to prevent someone who doesn’t accept the fact that you DO NOT CONSENT FROM RAPING YOU. You can only hope to escape it.
I will never tell my daughter and even my son for that matter, that rape is something they can’t control. We are a strong as we allow ourselves to be.
I’m sorry but I find this a dangerous notion to teach a young child. I understand where you’re coming from, and no one is advocating women or anyone for that matter give up on self-preservation, and submit to the inevitable sting of tragedy. However where this may become dangerous is, as much as we all want to protect our children, we are not with them 24-7. There are so many victims who also felt that they could control outside variables, and unfortunately discovered they could not. To even insinuate to a child that he/she has that much control over a predator’s action, can become an invitation for them to blame themselves in the event that somehow, they do fall prey to a predator. How could they not blame themselves for not being more responsible, if they’ve been taught they’re the ones who have control?
The same principal applies to rape victims. My own mother spent half of her life in a group home, and had suffered many sexual assaults. So naturally, she also swore to do all in her power to ensure neither of her daughters ever suffered the same fate. She taught us to be aware, to never enter anywhere alone in a room full of men, always watch your drink, and even to recognize the shady women who befriend you who sometimes lure girls into compromising situations. Of course I followed her advice , and thought I had pretty keen decision skills at the age of 16, but that didn’t stop me from getting raped, I trusted someone whom I later found out I shouldn’t have. and when I told her I could tell she blamed herself even when it was neither of our faults. She didn’t fail me.
So yes, empower your children, by all means. However you also might want to allow some room for them and yourselves to concede human error, moments of vulnerability, and human depravity are common.
I agree with this, MK, especially your final paragraph. Good luck in Chi-town.
I’m surprised how Champ thinks he can say that a reason women end up raped is because they “thumb their noses to common sense” or drink too much Patron and NOT expect a huge, massive… Don Imus ‘Nappy Headed Hoes’ comment backlash. You can’t have a reader based mostly comprised of women and try to excuse or explain away violence towards them. *That is common sense.*
Clearly rape education has not reached far enough.
Panama, you said earlier that this whole thing made you concerned for your daughter growing up…
Just do one thing. Make sure she feels safe talking with you about anything especially sex, even though it’s a hard conversation to start. Don’t make her ashamed of anything… and teach her this from a young age. You can’t protect her from everything but you can set up a framework where she feels she can talk with you without blowback or judgement.
Champ got taken to the woodshed with this post. You went from Champ to #1 contender today. You were the victim today and best believe you won’t find the sympathy and empathy they want you to have. You learned where the line was today. Better be a good boy and apologize unconditionally before Clutch and Crunk get a hold of this; they always looking for the next Steve Harvey to put up on the front page. You about to fuck up your money with the books and movies with this post. I’m just having some fun with you but, if nothing else, you learned what you can and cannot say on your own site. You should have posted this on GMP. You still woulda got roasted alive by the feminists, but at least there woulda been a chance of some meaningful dialogue.
Last try…
I don’t see me as contradicting myself. Yes, if a man wants to rape you, he will. But some situations are higher risk than others. And there are choices that can keep you out of some of those higher risk situations so he won’t even have a chance. Like not getting beyond impaired at a bar/party. Sadly, there is simply nothing one can do in a situation that didn’t become high risk until the rapist decides to actually rape you. Like grabbing you in the middle of the day or on a date or in your own marriage bed. So saying some rape can be avoided is not saying that all can be avoided. But if even a small percentage can be avoided, we should encourage any cooperation from both women AND men.
Okay, well, as a rape survivor, I can honestly say these methods are absolute horseshit.
And I was raped at 14. I didn’t have a drop of alcohol in my system, or drugs, and the scum who did it was someone I knew and trusted and never expected him to do something like that.
So how do you explain to teenage girls how not to get raped by their guy friends?
How do you counsel women and men who get raped by close relatives in their own household?
1. Yes, if a man wants to rape you, he will.
2. But some situations are higher risk than others.
That right there, bro, is you contradicting yourself.
It shouldn’t be incumbent on women to avoid normal social situations like going to parties or drinking in bars in order to avoid sexual assault. The end result of this hypothesis can only be that women who DO drink in bars or at parties don’t actually care if they get raped, and were possibly even inviting it.
And this is a very dominant mentality in our culture. Recently, a jury failed to convict a serial rapist, even though there were 10 separate accusations, precisely because of this mentality that there’s no such thing as date rape. http://www.self.com/health/2008/11/serial-rapist
I’m sorry, but you are wrong because you just have no idea what you’re talking about. Rather than trying to justify your wrongness, you should be quiet for a bit and read up on the experiences of survivors. Did you know that only about 6% of rapists ever face any jail time for their crimes? Seriously, women getting drunk is NOT the problem here.
I’m sorry but I can’t see this as anything but wishful thinking that if a young girl who reads and believes this will set her on a path of self-doubt, self-blame, and self-loathing if she gets raped. Because as if rape is not BAD ENOUGH of thing to happen to you… then you have to ASK YOURSELF IF YOU BROUGHT IT ON YOURSELF???? NO. No one ever brings rape on themselves. Rapist bring it on them.
F*CK IS WRONG WIT YOU ANTI-COOL? Why don’t you understand that… about at least a DOZEN survivors have said the same thing I am saying above. Do you think you know more than we do? You think you are better than us? You think you understand what it’s like to be in the situation more than us?
No matter what anyone does, RAPE is not the punishment or consequence. It’s not something you go, “See, I told you so… gurl, had you not worn that dress/drank patron/went out with him/married him/left the house ever he wouldn’t have snatched you…”
I was sexually assaulted by someone I trusted. It took YEARS to get over. Out of the same SHAME and SELF-DOUBT I didn’t report the crime because of judgmental, know-it-all a$$holes like you. Who think, “if it was me…. I would done x and y and z… and he wouldn’t have raped me! Cus’ I’m smarter or better… I have common sense. *I* would’ve avoided it.”
That is basically what you are saying… That is why it’s so f*cking evil and I hope you die in a fire and then get investigated for starting it yourself since you seem to think that is appropriate.
I too, was raped by someone I trusted and I spent over ten years telling myself what I could have done to prevent it. How I could have changed the situation. BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD HAVE PREVENTED THAT WAS THE RAPIST! PERIOD! No rape is the same, no experience is the same. No one can say what a person could have done differently. It isn’t in anyone’s place. I totally agree with you sweetsass.
I research rape, processes of healing, etc. I have a paper I would love to share with you. reply to this message if you want the paper and I will send you my email address.
Well good morning to you too.
I see you’re still not actually reading or comprehending what I’m saying so I’m gone let you be ignorant and hateful all by your lonesome. Enjoy your misery cause I don’t.
OMG….
Four women just responded to you over this comment… and telling you what is really up but you just wanna stick your fingers in your ears and go “La la la la … I can’t hear you.”
You got issues.
WOW…Ladies, let’s be thankful the men on this site are showing their true colors… I’ll remember who they are…. I’ll remember the ones who said “All I can think about is my daughter…” and the others who continued to defend the ridiculous rape prevention LIE… and have no idea how harmful that is…. S M H
So basically, this guy just told rape victims and survivors to fuck off. Yeah, now I’m really done. This post was dildos before the edit, and it’s still dildos after the edit.
Good ole common sense, we just love it! That is exactly what “Shit Everybody Says To Rape Victims” is all about (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1ocXCYUjQ)! If women (or men) just wouldn’t act rapable around guys, it would partially solve the problem right? This is doubly true for women who do pesky things like change their minds/remove consent. This is triple true for women who do insane things like attend frat parties where 8 guys at Santa Clara University will likely take turns raping them in a room of 10 men (the other two obviously doing all in their power to stop it by … standing there watching). And above all else women should stop walking with friends near campuses during homecoming dances because they will obviously get raped by their friends and strangers who join in or pull out their phones and start filming.
It happened to me when I was 8 so i’ll admit i’m biased. And that’s the most I can bring myself to say. I don’t know how the other survivors on here were able to tell their stories but I thank you so much for it.
If it’s really people’s intention to help, this link goes to a survey of rapists in prison and what they really looked for in potential victims: http://healthyisclassy.tumblr.com/post/12457976149/through-a-rapists-eyes-pls-take-time-to-read
It’s basically practical self defense tips instead of the “well you should know better than to wear mini skirts and bikini tops” kind of advice. Call it common sense or shameless victim blaming if you want. I don’t care. I appreciated learning the info because it is something that I am scared to death of happening again every second of every day.
We must stop using the alcohol ideology as an example. Countless women AND MEN are raped everyday in situations that DO NOT involve any sort of impairment. Language builds ideology, and as long as we continue to use that as an example to prove rape is preventable, we perpetuate myths about rape.
In the end, EVERYONE is a potential victim, EVERYONE is a potential rapist IF you don’t know what constitutes rape, what constitutes a vulnerable situation (Which is every situation considering rape is an form of touching in the genital region of both men and women without consent from both men and women) and how to protect yourself to the best of your ability. Period. End of Story! Perpetuate truth, not myth. Teach love and respect.
So, basically you’re saying a woman should never get drunk in the presence of a man because he might rape her? Um….are you serious? I’m not hurt by this post, mostly I’m just annoyed by your stupidity. It is not my responsibility to make sure I’m not raped. No one ever expects to be the victim of a crime. I don’t think you were “flippant” or “lighthearted” in your original post. I think the wording of your post betrayed your ignorance about rape. It doesn’t take any kind of mind reading or super natural ability to know that any woman would prefer NOT to be raped. Men are the ONLY people who can prevent rape, so yes, as a potential perpetrator it is your duty to be hypervigilant.
Also, women are absolutely not “free to do whatever the hell they want.” Safety is a constant concern for ALL women. We consider it before we decide where to live or who to date. We consider it every time we leave the house. Have you ever had the experience of walking home on a dark street, constantly glancing back to see if the person behind you looks like a potential threat? Have you ever anxiously waited alone on a subway platform late at night, fearful that another “groper” could be lurking? If you really believed “the onus of responsibility falls directly on the shoulders of the rapist, and no where else” you wouldn’t have written this idiotic post. You’ve exposed yourself as a victim blamer, a rapist apologist and an all around asshole. If you truly believe that men aren’t capable of taking 100% responsibility for their actions and don’t have enough respect for women not to try and victimize them every chance they get, that tells me two things: 1) you are a potential threat and 2) my days of reading this blog are over.
Here’s what a lot of women don’t seem to understand: a rapist is not going to change his mind any more than a serial killer or a thief. The WORLD tells them it’s wrong, but they still do it. Is it unfair that a woman would have to do so much and limit her freedom to even try to “prevent” rape from happening? YES it’s unfair. Unfortunately, this world is patriarchal and defends men until they get caught.
I hate to say it, but we men are a danger to women. I do all I can to tell my male friends and young males, but men act off what they think will work. The advice most men give to other men: “If she hesitates, just pull your dick out. She might just be nervous and saying no to not look like a hoe.” That’s just a small example of the normalized male mentality, which will take a lot on both sides to change.
I don’t ask to be killed or have my things stolen, but I take measures to try to prevent it, and if the shit still happens regardless, I have been a victim, and I did whatever I could. There is no BLAMING a woman for getting raped. A woman who is married or with her boyfriend who is sexually violated is not to blame in any case. But we can’t just act like no matter what a woman does, it won’t matter. No, it does matter. We ask ourselves why there are these double standards on women’s freedom, and this might just be it. Men are, very generally speaking, able to overpower women in various ways. We men need to teach men that as soon as she says no, forget your ego, and go on to the next one! We need to teach more empathy and sensitivity in men. One of the guys I considered my good friend turned out to be a fucking rapist and now he’s in jail, and I have no sympathy for him. Psychopaths are not seen with the naked eye. Until then, we are a danger to you, women. Treat men with as much precaution as you can, because a lot of us do whatever we can to test your limits and believe it’s OK until it’s too late.
Yes, how many guys out there think that paying for dinner or drinks means she ‘owes’ him sex? It’s gross. That kind of mentality needs to die a quick death.
I’m just going to say one thing about this post.
Two years ago, a week before my birthday, a woman who I was dating invited herself over to my apartment. We shared a pizza, watched a couple of movies, then hit the bed for a couple hours of happyfunadulttime. When my various parts gave me the “No, seriously, we’re done.”, message, I kissed her on the forehead and told her that that was the best that I could do for that night and promised to “knock her walls out”. She, while nestled in my arms, turned her head and told me that I would be a “really good rapist.”
Now, here are some things that I didn’t do at any time during our relationship…
Have drunken sex. We’d been intimate twice before I ever saw her drunk.
Drag, tease or otherwise coerce her into coming over to my home. In fact, it was the opposite, as she had no problem with using my apartment as an escape from her family.
Restrain her, whether during sex or from leaving my apartment. On that specific night, she used my bathroom thrice (2 times to clean herself during sex, as she was and probably still is an especially wet woman when aroused.) I never pinned her down or stopped her from moving, I never forced her to stay in one room, I never even raised my voice (except at *ahem* appropriate times.) In fact, the bathroom that she used was at most ten steps away from my front door. In comparison, my bedroom was fifty steps and a door away from the bathroom. If she had ever felt in danger, she could have walked through my front door and found a neighbor who would’ve called a cop before I would have gotten out of bed(and she was using my robe, so its not like she would have been running through my building naked or even had a reason to feel immodest.)
And yet, even as she explained her reasoning for her words, the only thing that ran through my mind was, “This woman could call a cop as soon as she leaves here and I’m going to jail.” I’m a born suspect. Ghetto born and raised, black male, within the age range that causes the most crime, etc. There was plenty of evidence of sex, with condoms and wrappers and fluids, so I couldn’t disprove that sex took place. Then I remembered all of the cases of “grey” rape and false accusations that I’d dealt with in my career (to be clear, I will say that I’ve dealt with more cases of unambiguous raped than not.) When she stopped talking, I got up and went to take a shower, then I took her to a bar for drinks. After that, I called her a taxi and sent her home. We corresponded by phone for a few more weeks, but I never had sex with her again. As of today (January 26, 2012), it has been over two years since I’ve had sex with another human being. My friends think that I’m insane, my relatives (who I’ve told about the situation) think I’m stupid, my therapist thinks that I’m paranoid and all of the above probably think that I’m in the closet or flat out gay. I don’t care. I’m not going to be the next guy doing a perp walk for the news media. Our media likes to turn every suspect into a degenerate, likes to turn a simple accusation into an ironclad supposition of guilt. I will not spend the rest of my life in abject poverty because my reputation was slandered or otherwise muddied because I chose the wrong woman to be intimate with. Call me a pussy or a faggot all you’d like, I’ll be the pussy faggot whose years of education and decades of work experience weren’t rendered moot by scandal. I’ll be the pussy faggot who can afford to eat the things that he likes, take the vacations that he likes and die in the hospital or house of his choice because he didnt get fired because of someone’s words. I pulled myself out of a housing project by my bootstraps, I’m not going back to living around drug dealers and stick up kids and corner boys because the words “suspected rapist” are enough to make me too risky to hire.
This post is still dildos. That whole “Don’t wear skimpy clothes and get drunk” rhetoric is bullshit.
I was wearing a sweatsuit, coming out of PE, my last class of the day, and walking home. IN BROAD DAYLIGHT.
So fuck this whole post.
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Honestly, if I were dancing naked in the street, totally drunk, that still would not give ANY guy the right to touch me. Not even my guy of more than four years.
I totally do understand the problem with “mixed signals” and modern-day insecurity when it comes to relationships (of any kind), but – YES, guys are responsible for their actions. And doing a girl because she is drunk and does not say no is like stealing because someone left their locker open – both are wrong, and doing it because the chances of getting away with it are high does not make it one bit less despicable.
My response is a little long for a comment, so I wrote a post on my own blog about how I feel: http://imsuchanafroholic.blogspot.com/2012/01/i-for-one-am-not-particularly-mad-at.html
There are definitely some problems in this interpretation, but I don’t think your basic premise of holding ALL people accountable for responsibility in (non-forcible) sexual encounters is problematic.
Here is what men don’t understand: the vast majority of rapists are not crazy wild-eyed trenchcoat-wearing psychopathic strangers who jump out from behind bushes and rape us. The VAST MAJORITY (2/3) of men who rape are known to the attacker, and almost half happen inside the victim’s house: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
To even begin to take the stance “women, here’s what YOU need or can do to protect yourself/minimize the chances/blah blah blah concerntrollingcakes” from the get-go demonstrates a pitiful lack of understanding of exactly what it means to live in a society of rape culture and exactly what rape is and how it happens. To even say that women and men have an EQUAL ability and responsibility to prevent rape is still asinine. If you want to prevent arson, are you going to be effective if you just go around giving lectures on how to better fireproof your home? Or are you actually going to stop or minimize the frequency of arson by, I don’t know… TALKING TO THE ARSONISTS (either verified or would-be)? Telling them to seek help, etc.? Anyone who actually has an informed opinion about rape understands that what a victim is wearing, how much she has drunk, etc. has NO IMPACT on the likelihood of a man to rape her. NONE. Or does rape not happen in Saudi Arabia? If a man feel ENTITLED to a woman’s body… if a man puts his own sexual needs above the right of a woman to not have him inside of her body… THAT DOES NOT FREAKING CHANGE IF I AM WEARING A DAMN BURKHA. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE IF I HAVE HAD TEN DRINKS OR NONE. And you know what? Let’s say this IS one of those predators who is stalking a bar, looking for “easy prey.” Let’s say that he skips my sober butt and decides on the woman next to me who’s dancing badly to karaoke – and rapes HER instead of ME. Exactly how many rapes did that prevent? Oh yeah – NONE. Which takes me to this larger point that ninjas are saying about somehow negating probability and just heeding these oh-so-sage words of “common sense wisdom” – despite all the hemming and hawing about the gray, it is really not that goddamn difficult to not rape someone. Trust me, it’s not. The issue is that our rape culture deliberately encourages this “gray area” to allow men to claim confusion or absolve them of culpability. If I have had sex with someone 1000 times and say no on the 1001st time, that is rape. If I am MID-FREAKING COITUS with someone and I tell them to stop, and they DON’T, THAT IS RAPE. If I CANNOT CONSENT, either via mental impairment, drug influence, etc., and you have sex with me anyway – THAT IS RAPE. Absolutely no person has a legal right to be inside of my body at any time I don’t want them to be and have not expressed to them that they can be there, and I can change my mind and revoke a right previously given. The issue here is not “teh mens” being so freaking concerned about our safety – it is about diminishing our autonomy while increasing our culpability in our own victimization. I checked your blog history, and strangely enough, for a blog run by MEN, I found ZERO posts about you checking yourselves and calling out your fellow men for pervasive street harassment. ZERO posts telling your fellow MEN how THEY should behave to AVOID RAPING PEOPLE. ZERO posts to your fellow MEN telling them to respect a woman’s right to say no, to understand that REGARDLESS of anything she says, wears, does – that in no way, shape, or form makes them entitled to have sex with her. Funny, that. Because like I said – the majority of people who rape are not some crazy deranged psychotic sadomasochistic freaks. Many of them are men, your friends, your relatives, YOURSELVES – who simply don’t think what they’re doing is rape (often BECAUSE of this asinine idea that rapists are only crazy deranged strangers and even if they meet all the criteria action-wise, they don’t LOOK or FEEL like a rapist), and/or don’t care about the feelings or wishes of women (which is probably more common than you think, trust me).
We teach boys not to rape.
We tech girls not to get raped.
Maybe we should be teaching both sexes to work together to prevent rape. Women shouldn’t treat all men as potential rapists but maybe as allies in the fight against rape. I know men who KNOW they have a rapist as a friend and they do nothing. Men will stand by and WATCH a rape happen and not do anything. Men need to understand that rape DESTROYS the victim and if you fail to try to stop a rape or report a rape, your just as bad as the rapist.
I have more to say but this subject is just…..to much for me…..
and this….is why I don’t read this site anymore. aggressively anti-progressive and anti-woman, sometimes. thanks for the reminder, my man!
Just wanted to throw in, according to the FBI the false rape report rate is about 2%, the same or lower than any other violent crime. Another way to say it is 98% of ppl who report rape are teling the truth. So the ppl on here whining about false rape accusations are both wasting their time and majoring in the minors. What about that 98%? Where’s your concern for that? Trolls.