On Black People And “Our” Homophobia

t1larg.blackchurch.ts

1. As I listened to Jason Collins and Oprah discuss the extra “stigma” of being gay and Black, I couldn’t help but wonder how true the “Blacks are more homophobic than everyone else” sentiment truly is. I think many of us—myself included—have said it so much that we’ve accepted it to be true, and since we’ve accepted it to be true, we don’t bother challenging or even testing that theory. And, over time, this widely-held theory is repeated as fact.

I’m not here to argue whether it’s true or false (at least not yet), but how do we really know? Sure, we can cite a few rap lyrics or some loosely connected vagaries about Black people and Christianity, but all that might prove is that a certain type of Black person might be more likely to be homophobic. But, once you control for education, class, location, and any other environmental factors, how would we (Black people) fare?

This phenomenon sort of reminds of me of the theory that Black people are the worst tippers. Whether or not the theory might be true is inconsequential (And yes, I believe it to be true). It’s so ingrained into so many people’s minds that they don’t even bother challenging it, they use confirmation bias to strengthen their beliefs, and after enough circular thinking it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

2. I think that when people say that Black people are more homophobic than everyone else, what they’re really saying is that Black men are more homophobic than everyone else. Black women generally get a pass, and I think that pass is undeserved.

Generally speaking, I think straight Black women are more superficially accepting of homosexuals—more likely to have gay male or lesbian friends, more “comfortable” around gays, more likely to participate in the fight for gay rights, etc. But, when it comes to actual beliefs about what constitutes male homosexuality, they’re no different than the typical Black male, as both the typical Black male and the “gay-friendly” Black woman tend to believe that there’s no such thing as a bisexual male. Basically, if a man has ever participated in any type of non-straight activity—a one-time act, a thought, a recurring dream, anything—he’s gay now, and gay forever. This is homophobic.

3. I think quite a few women are going to read those last couple sentences and tell me that I’m wrong, that they and most of the Black women they know don’t have any homophobic bones in their bodies. I think that before they leave any comments today, they should ask themselves two questions: Would you date a man who had one gay experience fifteen years ago? If no, would your answer change if you were 100% certain he wouldn’t do that again? If the answer is still no, I’d like to know why. What is it about that one-time act that would completely eliminate a man from your consideration?

4. I think I’m anxiously waiting for the day some prominent person just stops the denials, double-talk, and mealymouthedness and just comes out and says “Yes, I’m homophobic.” I think I’ll be waiting a while for that to happen. I don’t mind that, though. I’ve been waiting a couple decades now for a public figure to just say “Yes, I’m racist. Can you stop asking me whether or not I’m racist now?” so if anything it proves I’m patient.

5. I think I don’t like it when certain people (and by “certain people” I mean “certain Black Christians”) are asked about their views concerning homosexuality, and are criticized for responding honestly. But, I also think that socially abhorrent views are meant to be criticized. I think my problem isn’t necessarily with the criticism but with the ambush tactics—ask someone a question even though you already know how they’re going to answer just so you can make an example out of them—especially from other “progressive” Black Christians.

6. I think you can ask a million Christians about the Bible and what they take from it and get a million different variations. I mean, we (Christians) all believe that, to paraphrase Bill Maher, there’s a “magic genie in the sky that’ll grant our wishes if we ask really hard,” so is it really that bad when one of us also believes homosexuality is a sin or that you can legitimately pray your gay away?

7. Speaking of progressive people and homosexuality, I think there’s a bit of a disconnect when it comes to what people are willing to admit. To wit, many people (myself included) believe that human sexuality exists on a continuum. Basically, there’s a sexuality scale that we all fit somewhere on. Most of us are gathered either at the gay end or the straight end, but the rest of us are somewhere in the middle.

But, if a scale exists, I think it also stands to reason that a person in the middle can consciously choose to be gay or straight. Yet, I think you’re unlikely to find a liberal/progressive person publicly admit that people who can actually make that type of choice exist because it opens a Pandora’s Box for “less enlightened” people to say “See, I told you that all gay people are only gay because they chose to be.”

8. I know I’m far from the first person to say this, but I think someone needs to invent another word to use to describe someone being uneasy around, unaccepting of, or hateful towards homosexuals. “Homophobic” just doesn’t seem comprehensive enough to capture all of that. Feel free to list any suggestions.

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

  • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

    Good post. Relevant topic.

    Not to toss shade or whatnot, but NPR’s Code Switch did a formal study on this very topic and wrote about it on their blog “Crunching the Numbers on Blacks Views on Gays”: http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/05/02/180548388/crunch-the-numbers-on-blacks-views-on-gays

    If there was ever a reason to be skeptical about stats, this isn’t the time… mostly because the article cited Nate Silver and he’s never wrong.

    Short version of the article: It’s overblown. We don’t hate gays as much as people say we do. Period. (And I don’t hate them at all. Confetti and weddings and marriage for everyone!)

    • Joy2urwrld

      +1 I was just about to post this article lol. I’m glad I read your comment first!

      • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

        +1 to other people that love NPR! :)

    • Rewind

      I have to disagree. Statistics take a sample population and then compare them to the actual population. That doesn’t accurately state the views of many people.

      I come from a West Indian background. You’d be hard pressed to find a West Indian over age 50 that is comfortable with homosexuality unless they are homosexual themselves, or have come to terms with homosexuality through their children. That is a huge population those studies don’t consider but are considered Black Americans.

      • Todd

        Well, my dad is full-blown West Indian and not a homophobe. Then again, my aunt (his sister) was enough in the 50s to actually catch a few cases for it…when they couldnt bust her for guns or heroin dealing.

        Suffice to say my aunt is an interesting character. :)

        • Todd

          *was OUT enough. My bad.

        • Sweet GA Brown

          Your aunt was about that life.

          • Todd

            Funny story about that. When my wife first met my aunt, and heard her rap sheet, she asked out of curiosity if she’d ever killed anyone. Mind you, my aunt is12 years older than my dad, so she looks like an elderly woman until you speak to her.

            Her response? “Well..I don’t THINK so…” with this concerned look on her face.

        • Rewind

          Your aunt was a thug. She got that tat before it was cool.

          Your dad sounds like the classic Bajan man.

      • LMNOP

        People over 50 are all significantly more likely to be homophobic.

        • LMNOP

          I pulled that out of my a.ss, but it’s probably true. It sounds true at least.

          • Deeds

            This is probably true, I believe it was said that 70% of young adults support gay marriage and it decreases the older people get.

        • Rewind

          While this could be true, I picked them because they are the first groups of bigots I encountered that still don’t change their positions. Many young West Indians are bigots too, but it depends on where they live. There’s a huge gay culture scene here in NY, and of course there are West Indians who are a part of it, but on the other hand, you have plenty of young West Indians totally against it.

          • 2Rawtid

            As a West Indian in America, I take particular offense to this. I see that our culture here has a way of condemning other cultures for their beliefs on a variety of issues (religion, education, sexualiy, etc). I don’t say that to say that there aren’t many homophobic West Indians, but I don’t think its right or fair to say that just because a person or culture believes homosexuality is wrong/bad/unnatural (or whatever adjective) that means they are homophobic. That is such a slippery slope. Said people could very well be supporters of equal rights, and treat gay people no different than anyone else. In this way many members and supporters of the gay community are guilty of doing the very thing they are asking the rest of the world to stop doing.

            • Rewind

              When I listen to a group of West Indian men over 60 talking about how gay sex is disgusting and fa-ggots need to die…I think my point is proven.

              If I go to an old-school reggae bash, and the DJ blasts Buju Banton – Boom Bye Bye and the whole party sings along, knowing the lyrics are ant-gay as hell….yea..the song is hot but it is still f*cked up.

              There is a difference between not liking something and hating it. But in my experiences, West Indians have used the hate quite frequently.

        • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

          Tis true.

      • Ms. Bridget

        The polls seem to be loosely linked to recent state wide elections. I think that implies that the population is meant to represent those Blacks in America as opposed to Blacks internationally.

        • Rewind

          I was speaking towards West Indians living in America. I don’t like statistics because a sample population can be any group of people who are then used to describe everyone else.

          They could have polled a group of Black people from a small town in Alabama, and then say that is the general consensus for Black America. The same as when CNN does a poll online and then act as if they poll states the opinion for all Americans.

          • Ms. Bridget

            That’s why it’s important to read the actual study rather than an article spouting the “statistics”. The sample population is usually (if not always) stated in the research methods. “A random sample of women from Backwoods, AL” vs. “A random sample of women from all 50 states”. It’s not the statistics that lies, it’s usually the reporter with an agenda.

            • Rewind

              I ,know that part Bridget, but as a psych grad, I get weary of statistics since I know how often they are manipulated. The article was a good read, but I wasn’t sure how to agree with it once the statistics came into play.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “You’d be hard pressed to find a West Indian over age 50 that is comfortable with homosexuality unless they are homosexual themselves, or have come to terms with homosexuality through their children. That is a huge population those studies don’t consider but are considered Black Americans.”

        relatively speaking, this is not a huge population. in fact, compared to other demographics within America, it’s a very, very small one

        • Rewind

          As are most sample groups used to prove statistical polls. Doesn’t change that they are one group out of many who don’t fall in line with what is being said.

          • LMNOP

            But in order for a small group to be used as a sample, you have to have good reason to believe it is representative. In your example of West Indians over the age of 50, you said they are especially homophobic, which would mean they aren’t representative.

            That said, there are many other groups of people where many members of that nationality, religion, etc over 50 (or over 60) are homophobic.

            • Rewind

              Actually, i’m just speaking from experience. I can’t use my experiences to describe all people from those two categories, but the people I have encountered from those categories did exactly what I said they did.

    • Todd

      +2 on that article.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      thanks for the link

      • http://www.awordorthree.com Crystal Marie

        No prob. NPR’s CodeSwitch is full of all kinds of goodies.

    • John Turner

      This is a very poorly written post, and homophobic. It inadvertently proves everything it sets out to deny.

  • http://www.blacklatinafabulous.com Maris

    There’s a study out somewhere that scientifically links the connection between the “last” group oppressed and the “next” group oppressed – basically generally pointing out Blacks will get no help from say, Jews, and LGBT’s will get no help from Blacks, due mostly due the fear of regression. One of these days I will find it,
    In regards to the “bisexual male” thing, i have yet to find a person that believes it for both sexes, so i call bs. I just think that for some people the “where have they been” thing gets unavoidable when you factor in another person of the same sex. Which reminds me of a funny convo i had once-as i don’t see an enormous deal with a bisexual man, a guy asked me if i was ok kissing a man who i knew had a p*nis in his mouth ever, to which i replied, “well you want to kiss me tonight, right? I’m not a virgin, so let that marinate.” Never had that convo again.

    • Jelly Jam

      “Which reminds me of a funny convo i had once-as i don’t see an enormous deal with a bisexual man, a guy asked me if i was ok kissing a man who i knew had a p*nis in his mouth ever, to which i replied, “well you want to kiss me tonight, right? I’m not a virgin, so let that marinate.” Never had that convo again.”

      Check…mate.

      • http://fourpageletter.wordpress.com keisha brown

        BOOM.

        • http://mosnative.wordpress.com/ Mos_Native

          So wrong!!!

      • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

        Bazinga.

      • Wild Cougar

        sexual preferences aren’t logical and consistent. Expecting them to be is really kinda silly.

        • Kema

          Agree!

    • 2HourLunchBreak

      cold ass truth. damn.

    • http://inanimatethoughts.blogspot.com/ Animate

      It’s early but you win my morning internet award!

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “Which reminds me of a funny convo i had once-as i don’t see an enormous deal with a bisexual man, a guy asked me if i was ok kissing a man who i knew had a p*nis in his mouth ever, to which i replied, “well you want to kiss me tonight, right? I’m not a virgin, so let that marinate.” Never had that convo again.”

      why do you think you’re ok with dating a man who might have had a same-sex experience and most Black women don’t seem to be?

      • http://www.blacklatinafabulous.com Maris

        1) I’m Black, but I’m not “African American”. That may have something to do with it.

        2) I am a “pageant girl” and my platform has always been HIV awareness. I know from experience that things done in secret are rarely done safely. I’d much rather have a person around me that is completely comfortable with who they are, and is safe in their interaction s and baggage-free, regardless of orientation.

        3) ***generalization alert**Homophobes are not often great lovers. They They know how to get themselves off, but won’t entertain suggestions, especially if it is not one of the standard three positions. I’m not here for your madonna/whore complex, I have enough in my life to deal with than trying to figure out mid-coitus if a reverse cowgirl would be too much for you to handle from me without thinking I’m “impure”.

        4) Tom Hardy would not get a no from me, bisexual or not. Bayne could get. It.

        • http://twitter.com/ktemjin Kaname

          Tom Hardy is amazing :) All those pictures with him hugging dogs just makes me smile.

    • Demondog 06

      eew…

    • SweetSass

      I like how you think.

      • Maris

        The funniest thing about it is I’m THEE most hetero… hetero. Never had a physical interaction with a woman and never wanted to. Don’t care for FF pr0n or FMF threesomes, nothing. I just like whole men that don’t say one thing in public and do another in secret.

  • http://fourpageletter.wordpress.com keisha brown

    i picked an interesting day to come back to vsb land (hope y’all have been behaving)…

    let me prepare for armageddon with some snacks and beverages and a comfortable seat (while my clothes are in the dryer).

    to address the post:
    i have probably said the same thing, using the same argument and accepted it as truth as well. and the fact that it’s universally accepted (FUBU), doesn’t make it right, but doesn’t make it wrong either. or does it?

    i think contact is always going to be a key determining factor when it comes to any type discrimination. if you haven’t been around a segment of people in a genuine setting to dispute stereotypes and myths – it’s hard to prove/disprove your theory.

    would i date a man who had a gay experience a decade ago? nope. does that make me homophobic? nope. i have a right to be discriminatory against who i allow inside my body. women face a lot more consequences sexually than men do. frankly – it’s no different than me choosing not to let a man who i know is engaging in unprotected sex with another woman or a man who has really high numbers or a man who has fetishes i am not comfortable with. i think it’s unfair to label women who answer this question honestly as homophobic. because i dont want to have sex with you doesn’t mean i hate gays. not wanting to associate with them in any shape or form (i don’t want them on my team, i don’t want him cutting my hair, i dont want a dr doing a prostate test, i don’t want one as a friend, i don’t want to partner with one for a school project etc…) – who is really more likely to say those statements? men or women? it’s also unfair because men don’t have the same views about female homosexuality as they do about male homosexuality. (to be fair – many women don’t either) – so you can’t even ask that question in reverse (would you have sex with a woman who has engaged in same gender sexual relations..many men would answer yes and i hope she does it again…with me!). it’s also men who tend to view threesomes with 2 males/1 female as a derogatory act/gross vs the opposite. so if we’re trying to label who is more ‘homophobic’….

    i agree with you that homophobic is too general. you have a right to not be comfortable around people. just like white people have a right to clutch their purses when you get into an elevator or women have the right to cross the street if you are walking too close behind them. but what is that based on? a fear? ignorance? a lack of education? a trigger? nobody ever knows someones story unless they ask.

    as a person in the event industry – i have made peace that i am a triple minority in the field. im a girl. im black and im heterosexual. it is what it is. i’ve been in situations that make me very uncomfortable and dislike certain people/acts based on how they behave. i won’t say too much about my working environment..but let’s just say i’m sure laws/rights/etc.. have been broken. stay getting broken. will always be broken. if i want to keep my job – i have to adapt and deal with it.

    but i’ve been witness to some of the most beautiful unions of two people who love each other and want to build a life together. i see nothing wrong with them being able to do that – because who does it hurt when there is MORE love in the world?

    • IcePrincess

      Keeeeeeesh!! How’s dat baby? How old is he now?

      • http://fourpageletter.wordpress.com keisha brown

        hii!!
        he’s great. teething tho. he’s 7 months.. it’s going by WAY too fast.. :(

    • Rewind

      I sucked you back in over here.

      Hand clap for me.

      And…ok, you have a point. We don’t work under the same terms as women, but we can’t change the fact that society decided 2 women are hot, and two men are not. That becomes an individual choice for a woman, and most Black women would never be happy with the idea that a man did anything sexual with another man, then decide to be with her.

      • Todd

        Agreed!

      • Keisha Brown

        Ummm by society you mean men right? Exactly.

        • SweetSass

          He also means pRon lesbians. Not real life lesbians.

          • Todd

            Speak for yourself. I personally like real Lesbian pr0n. It seems much more relaxed.

        • Rewind

          Given that they made the rules first, yes.

          But quite a number of women have fallen in line with the archaic values men made up long ago. So whether straight or lesbian, you can always find a woman of some background who has some kind of negative view of gay men. Not all women are as progressive as people here are trying to say they are.

          I’ve met women who thinks its sexy to watch two dudes go at it, then be the 3rd wheel. I don’t see anything wrong with that, because that’s her preference. Even if people don’t like something, that’s their perogative, but when they start insulting people for doing something they don’t agree with, then I call foul.

    • JhaneSez

      I wouldn’t date a bi-sexual man because, to quote Patti Stanger of Millionaire Matchmaker fame, “the peen-is does the picking”.

      Me and all 12 of my friends don’t know of any men who have had sexual experiences with men or would label themselves bi-sexual who actually prefer women as sexual partners. Women are either plan B (for beard) because they don’t want the social/economic disadvantage (real or perceived) of living the an open bi (gay) lifestyle… or they find women (a) necessary (evil) for procreation.

      Also Seinfeld taught my generation that its hard to compete with another guy sexually, because he has the same equipment and can play with it all the time… not that there is anything wrong with that.

      The short answer has been discussed many times here before, women are wired different… especially when it comes to rolling the dice on long term relationships that would ideally require fidelity.

      Why would you even ask a woman to roll the dice on a man who gets hard for another man… not that there is anything wrong with that… but the expectation that she should compromise her health,safety and sanity in the name of fair play is absolutely ridiculous.

      Who are we being fair to by the way.

      I have a serious question for any man who would ask a woman to over look a little peen-is in the mouth as being a (non-mfing-factor) preference… especially the way dudes go on, and on about how they can’t compromise and have no control over who they are attracted to…

      Real talk…

      Is this yet another case of Black-women-shouldn’t-have-any-preferences-or-standards…

      Because I don’t even know why this would be a serious question ~JS

      • Rewind

        What are you talking about? What health, safety and sanity is a woman at risk with if she gets with a bi-sexual man? That he smashed YEARS AGO? How is that different from being with other women?

        I don’t get where these distinct labels come up for men who’ve been with other men. It really is no different than being with other women, if you are hyper sexual, then the odds get worse for you to end up with a bad consequence. But if you did something once, and don’t plan on it again, why do the same accusations still apply?

        • LMNOP

          Men who have had sex with men have a higher rate of HIV than men who haven’t, so that might be what she’s talking about.

          Since straight men and women can get HIV too, obviously the best way to prevent it is knowing your partner’s HIV status and using condoms. Everyone knows this, but I am guessing pretty much no one follows it, so people make up these little “shortcuts” which are both prejudiced and not remotely effective at preventing disease transmission.

          • Rewind

            Those statistics have always been skewed and manipulated.

            The point was always, the more people you have sex with, the more chances you have at attaining STDs. That’s it. The gender never mattered, because regardless, you’re gender swapping when you go from man to man, or woman to woman, because they’ve been with multiple partners of the opposite sex too.

          • http://www.blacklatinafabulous.com Maris

            Actually, the highest rates of HIV infection are amongst hetero women. The elderly are also catching up. There aren’t enough “downlow” brothers to place the blame squarely on their shoulders – all you have to do is search “would you hit it raw” on twitter to find your answer. Ppl still outchea believing someone is “too pretty” to have HIV.

          • http://www.blacklatinafabulous.com Maris

            Actually, the highest rates of HIV infection are amongst hetero women. The elderly are also catching up. There aren’t enough “downlow” brothers to place the blame squarely on their shoulders – all you have to do is search “would you hit it raw” on twitter to find your answer. Ppl still outchea believing someone is “too pretty” to have HIV.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “I have a serious question for any man who would ask a woman to over look a little peen-is in the mouth as being a (non-mfing-factor) preference…”

        not saying that women shouldn’t have complete agency over their sexual choices. I’m just asking why this particular thing would be a deal-breaker.

        • SweetSass

          Why is a woman’s body count a deal breaker for men? Riddle me that.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Ms. SweetSass:
            Because of a little concept called Paternity Certainty: a Woman with too many s8xual partners is taken as a proxy for her potential toward exclusiveness to a Man, and as such, being a potential risk for being cuckcolded. This is an evolutionary adaptation to prevent a Man from being took reproductively and being duped into investing his time and resources into another Man’s seed.

            Makes perfect sense; Men can and should have appropriate counter measures against Women’s potential treachery.

            O.

            • SweetSass

              No it doesn’t make sense. Just because someone had many partners in the past doesn’t make them cheaters. Just like one same sex experience does not a ‘gay identity’ make.

              PLEASE, join the rest of the human race who can think outside of our amygdala. You know we evolved this higher brain function,no?

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                @Ms. SweetSass:
                “No it doesn’t make sense. Just because someone had many partners in the past doesn’t make them cheaters. Just like one same sex experience does not a ‘gay identity’ make.”

                O: Leaving the Gay issue aside – because the evidence from an EvoPsych POV is inconclusive at best – YES, it does make perfect sense, and only those who are ignorant about EvoPsych would say what you just said. You don’t have to like it, to be sure, quite a few Women don’t; but that’s not going to change anything, and you know it. Simply put, Men won’t invest in a Woman who he has reason to believe has had one too many prior s8xual partners, precisely for the reasons I’ve enuniciated. Make of that what you will, it will avail you naught.

                “PLEASE, join the rest of the human race who can think outside of our amygdala. You know we evolved this higher brain function,no?”

                O: Actually, you’re making my point, my darling. The human brain has indeed evolved precisely along the lines we’re discussing, to help human males and females solve adaptive problems – one of which, from the human male side, being the problem of ensuring his parental investment wouldn’t be wasted.

                You really should read up on Buss’ works. I think you’ll learn a lot…

                O.

                • SweetSass

                  If EvoPsych really had as much sway on our actions as you say…

                  You should not be telling dudes how to better their game. You’d be keeping that info to yourself to hoard women for yourself.

                  Male bonobos in the wild do not teach other male bonobos in the wild how to get the ladies…. they kill them.

                  So really, your pseudoscience is made up garbage to confirm your sexist bias of the world.

                  Your welcome.

                  • leeward

                    I have to say that your assertion regarding Male bonobo behaviour is incorrect. I’m assuming you meant to say chimpanzee. There have been no eyewitness accounts of male bonobos killing other bonobos. Now they do kill monkeys. You can check Frans De Waal’s for that. You can also check out “Demonic Males” by Dale Petersen and Richard Wrangham.

                    • SweetSass

                      Yeah I was just picking a primate…

                      There are also gibbons who mate for life.

                      So much for the promiscuity theory.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    So much for Ms. SweetSass getting her facts straight.

                    We’ll be taking no such scientific learnings from you, I’m afraid.

                    You’re most welcome-BOOM!

                    O.

          • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

            “Why is a woman’s body count a deal breaker for men? Riddle me that.”

            I’m glad you asked that, because I actually think that the way the typical man feels about promiscuous women completely mirrors the way the typical woman feels about men who might have been attracted to other men. both parties are making present-day judgments based on acts a person could have done a long time ago and conceivably “gotten out of their systems,” judgments that may not even have an effect on the type of person that person happens to be today.

            the reasons for both being shunned is that they fall outside of the type of behavior we expect from the other gender, and it threatens us. it’s a double standards that cuts both ways. it admittedly makes us (men) “slut-shamers” or whatever, and I’m just waiting for Black women to admit that it makes them somewhat homophobic

          • Rewind

            An archiac standard that since a woman’s body is built for pregnancy, there is more to value from her body than there is from a man.

            But hey, its 2013. That sh*t doesn’t matter anymore.

        • Wild Cougar

          It makes the man less sexually masculine in my mind. Its about the nature of how parts fit together. I like my men to be dominant. It turns me on. Non dominance turns me off. Part of my unique sexuality. I get to have that.

          • JellyJam

            But who’s to say the man wasn’t the dominant one with his same sex partner(s)?

        • JhaneSez

          “not saying that women shouldn’t have complete agency over their sexual choices. I’m just asking why this particular thing would be a deal-breaker.”

          Because you are tyically dealing with one of two basic types of men… either he is confused and/or conflicted about his sexuality, or he is hypersexual and/or sexually indiscriminate… neither is a good investment for long term dating or marriage.

          For me I would also include men who have slept with prostitutes, swinging, threesomes, etc…

          First it has been my experience that if a guy engages in a behavior once, it means that he has thought about it, become aroused, fantasied about it and acted on it… and once is never enough and usually it was more like two or three times because in most cases they wouldn’t rely on one experience to be the bench mark of continued participation

          I think that the personality type that would engage in such behavior(s) has poor impulse control and is either getting off because of orientation, or because they are a thrill seeker, and these are two qualities that don’t bode well for fidelity.

          I have also found that this type of impulsiveness and in most cases hypersexuality makes them more of a health risk because being sexually experimental and responsible don’t typically go hand in hand.

          In order for him to fully be responsible and non impulsive you would have to be a participant either active or passive, because men who feel the need to explore their sexuality in this manner the journey typically doesn’t end for them and it will be a constant issue for you.

          The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior… if you take him at his word that this was just a one time thing and he ‘relapses’ what are you going to say because you have already been (warned) informed that this behavior is part of his sexual past… and these behaviors become part of your sexual history as well

          As a woman, especially a Black one you will get little or no support when things go left and no one will feel sorry for you or help you because you knew… and you will be judged and your value will be lowered (as it is discussed ad nauseam here) because either you must carry his burden in secret or risk being having your judgement questioned by any future partners that you may have.

          And keeping it 100, we all know as a Black woman you will be, because if dudes trip about your number they are going to really give you the side eye and assume that you are either damaged or desperate if you agreed to be in a relationship with a man you has either had bi-sexual experiences or is actively bi-sexual or gay, and you were told up front.

          It has also been my experience (through observation) that men who come clean about these types of behaviors are merely doing a stress test to see how you are going to respond if they should slip up… because the issues isn’t resolved especially if he is confused or conflicted about his sexuality.

          In short its just a bad look for Black women… and if you assess the risk vs. the reward there is little upside for sistas ~JS

          • JellyJam

            “Because you are tyically dealing with one of two basic types of men… either he is confused and/or conflicted about his sexuality, or he is hypersexual and/or sexually indiscriminate… neither is a good investment for long term dating or marriage.”

            Wait… why can’t the man just be bi? Not confused, not a whore, not conflicted, not ambiguous… Just bisexual. He has some varying degree of attraction to women and men. I don’t think that precludes him from being able to commit to a woman (or a man) in the future.

            • JhaneSez

              The original premise was that his bi experience was a one off… I was responding primarily to that.

              As for your question… I believe in doing what works… I have not seen nor heard of a relationship with a man who identifies as bi-sexual working long term, I know women who have tried and not had it work out specifically for that reason.

              The potential bagge isn’t worth the reward for me to enter into a relationship with him, we can be friends and be cool… but I am not going to invest my social capital or time in a self identified bi man ~JS

      • SweetSass

        I don’t trust Patti Stanger’s advice. Ahem, ain’t she single? Matchmaker… make thyself a match.

        Also, she is basically a pimp who connects gold diggers with millionaires. How hard can that really be?

        What is most humorous is when the millionaires want to ‘test’ the gals or complain they don’t want to be loved just for their money! Bwahahahahaha….

        • Malik

          She’s engaged.

          • SweetSass

            Nah, she has a suga baby. He is 44 down on his luck mortgage broker. And remember all her advice is always go older. So if she went by her own advice she’d be dating a 60+ year old guy.

            And it’s a ‘promise ring’ last I heard.

      • Brother Mouzone

        + 5000

        • Brother Mouzone

          *Meant for JhaneSez

    • Marshal

      “But, when it comes to actual beliefs about what constitutes male homosexuality, they’re no different than the typical Black male, as both the typical Black male and the “gay-friendly” Black woman tend to believe that there’s no such thing as a bisexual male. Basically, if a man has ever participated in any type of non-straight activity—a one-time act, a thought, a recurring dream, anything—he’s gay now, and gay forever. This is homophobic.”

      As Champ said it, That’s how it is. I have never participated in a Threesome with myself, a Woman and Another Man because I’m a Hypocrite and I’m Selfish Sexually, not because I’m Homophobic. Women and Men can spin the Double-Standard all they want about Bisexual Women the “Non-Existence” of a Bisexual Male. If you Don’t Believe a Guy can be Bi, you’re a Homophobe, Period. That’s It. End of Conversation

      • AYFKM

        I’m sure some will see this as a gross exaggeration but this is how I see it. If you are a man who has had sexual intercourse with another man, you’re gay. No matter how many women you have slept with after said act. If you kill someone you’re a murderer, no matter how many people you don’t kill (LOL!) or lives you may save after said act. If a man kissed another man and said it wasn’t for him I could see past that. But having intercourse with another man. Nah. That’s gay. Literally.

        • Marshal

          Does this mindset then also apply to Women who have had sex with other Women? People can play semantics with dildos and vibrators and strap-ons but it’s virtually the same thing as Men doing Anal- it’s Penetration. Men are Gay by just a Single Encounter of Sex with another Man then Women are Lesbians after One Sexual Fling with another Woman

          • Deeds

            +1
            Some people are just bisexual man or woman.
            Sure there are some men that may just be lying to themselves but only that person could know for sure.

          • Sweet GA Brown

            True. I know females that say hey aren’t lesbians because the female went down on them but they didnt reciprocate the act. My homegirl said if a girl wants to do it she will let her but she is still strictly d!ckly.

            “Keep tellin yourself that, darling”

        • Rewind

          You call it gay. But if it happened once, and the person never went back, it is a bi-sexual experience. Or if the person tried it and realized “nope, not for me”, then that’s just sexual experimentation.

          To simply put a fully-damned label on someone for making a choice in their life when they had to right to do whatever they want is stupid just because other people are to p*ssy to be open-minded. If it creeps someone out to know someone else had a same-sex experience, I get that it aint for everyone, but you still dont’ get the right to say who or what that person is.

      • Rewind

        I always thought it was funny that the dudes who scream “no-homo” be running trains on chicks and smashing chicks in front of their homies.

        • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

          i believe overcompensation tells on itself ..

          • Rewind

            Indeed it does.

        • http://twitter.com/dtafakari dtafakari

          Yeah, the whole train thing, with a whole line of dudes rubbing peens behind you? Side eye. I don’t understand the allure either.

          Also, I’ve asked guy friends how men who are otherwise squeamish about same-sex relations can watch straight pr0n and exclaim about how big Mr. Marcus is…but not feel squeamish about looking at/talking about another man’s peen… they dunno.

          • Malik

            I hate the word “homosocial” but that’s the best descriptor for it. Bonding with other dudes through your peens. Just like dudes can see a picture with 8 d!cks and not have a problem with it as long as there is at least 1 woman involved, but feel if they see one by itself that isn’t their’s they are going to “turn gay.”

            • Rewind

              That’s the thing though…there’s nothing wrong about doing it at all…yet dude always find some way to be hypocrites in a different situation. I don’t get it. Why can’t we just let it all be fair and fine?

          • Rewind

            The reality is men engage in what would be deemed homosexual behavior but don’t consider it that, because straight men don’t make a big deal about watching porn or trains, because its seen as something of comroddery. Like…if you’re at an orgy…you won’t be doing with a man there unless you want to…but there are naked men there having sex, and you may watch them if you’d like. There’s nothing homosexual necessarily about it, but yet a hyper masculine man would scream a dude is a homo for walking around in the showers in a gym without a towel on. It is weird.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “would i date a man who had a gay experience a decade ago? nope. does that make me homophobic? nope. i have a right to be discriminatory against who i allow inside my body. women face a lot more consequences sexually than men do. frankly – it’s no different than me choosing not to let a man who i know is engaging in unprotected sex with another woman or a man who has really high numbers or a man who has fetishes i am not comfortable with. ”

      the rest of the deal breakers you listed have practical reasons behind them. i’d like to know why a one-time act committed a decade ago would disqualify a man from your consideration?

      • Vee

        For me…I’d see the dude as less than a man.

        Maybe that’s an effed up perspective but I’ll own it.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          “For me…I’d see the dude as less than a man.

          Maybe that’s an effed up perspective but I’ll own it.”

          thank you

      • Keisha Brown

        Because who’s to say it was a one time act? And the health risks associated with anal sex are well documented. As I said – even it was just that one time, he’s clearly more adventurous than I am sexually comfortable with. He can still be who he is, still should have the right to marry – I just don’t want him in my vagina. I have quite of few gays on my fb – I might just have to pose this question to them (and ask them to define homophobia).

        • SweetSass

          Well, what about dudes who have backdoor with past girlfriends? he he he.

          • Freebird

            Good point.

          • http://inanimatethoughts.blogspot.com/ Animate

            Logic win lol

          • Marshal

            Thank You, Sass. an Anus is an Anus, doesn’t matter if it’s a Guy’s or a Lady’s

            • Marshal

              Sorry about that, didn’t know the gluteus Maximus rectum that was a Moderation-like Word

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          “Because who’s to say it was a one time act?”

          The hypothetical question I asked said that.

        • Rewind

          K, that’s a cop out.

          Like Sass said…anal sex goes for straight or gay…so..no.

          And asking if it was a one-time only deal…at that rate, it would sound like you’d never believe their answer.

        • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

          Why is all gay sex anal? Most gay male couples do not practice anal sex.

          • http://twitter.com/ktemjin Kaname

            I know right! Stereotypes are seriously driving this discussion off the rails.

          • Shalonda282

            Ok now I’m curious. Where else can you put it?
            Lol, don’t judge me.

            • Malik

              Love. There is far more and grander sex than just penetration.

  • Jelly Jam

    IMO, I don’t think black people are more homophobic. I just think we’re more vocal about our biases because we don’t believe in reverse discrimination.

    And on the bisexuality tip, I loosely believe in the Kinsey homosexual-heterosexual scale with most people having some level of same sex/opposite sex attraction (consciously or not, admittedly or not). I just think most people operate in the gray, so I see no problem with a bisexual man (or woman.) The problem is honesty with self and others due to fear of persecution (by self and others.)

    • Todd

      Word. I have no problem with open bisexual men. They’re just as likely to be responsible members of the community as anyone else. It’s the DL dudes I have an issue with, especially since they don’t let people make up their own minds, even if those minds are bigoted.

      • JellyJam

        Yeah, I have an issue with ppl on the DL, but I feel for them too. Sociocultural pressure is a beast at times.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “I just think we’re more vocal about our biases”

      i thought about this as well. perhaps our homophobes just tend to be louder than everyone else’s homophobes, and this gives off the impression that there’s a high percentage of us like that

    • Shalonda282

      I agree that black people are just more vocal about their biases. I have a lot of the PTL types in my family who are very vocal about their biases and I respect that. We’ve agreed to disagree after many heated discussions.

      I do think that men and women can be bisexual, but most people tend to lean one way or the other.

      As far as being with a bisexual man, I couldn’t be with a man who likes other men because I would never be enough for him. If it was just a one time thing and he’s certain it will never happen again I prefer for him to never tell me.

      There are just some things I don’t need to know.

      • JellyJam

        “As far as being with a bisexual man, I couldn’t be with a man who likes other men because I would never be enough for him. If it was just a one time thing and he’s certain it will never happen again I prefer for him to never tell me.”

        Nothing personal, but I hate this logic. I feel like claiming bisexual ppl are insatiable and can’t control themselves absolves them from personal responsibility. If monogamy is the end game, then gay, str8, bi, you control your sexual endeavors. If he/she cheats, it’s not because they are bi…it’s because they are a cheater. (Granted, some could propose that the person cheated because they felt unfulfilled emotionally, physically or mentally, but my response is that a committed adult would discuss that with his partner before venturing out.) Sexual preference doesn’t define views and rules on relationships…people do.

        • Shalonda282

          I wasn’t implying that bisexual men are insatiable or unable to control their sexual urges.

          What I’m saying is that I would never ask someone I love to deny a part of themselves.

          For me it has nothing to do with one’s ability to be faithful and everything to do with sexual compatibility. I would have a problem if my man said, look I love you and I want to be with you forever, but only if you agree that we do it missionary style for the rest of our lives.

          I wouldn’t be content in our relationship, no matter how much I loved him I wouldn’t be fulfilled. That doesn’t mean that I would cheat, but it would be a lot of stress on our relationship.

          But people make sacrifices like that all the time in the name of love. Ijs, I wouldn’t do that and I wouldn’t ask anybody to do that.

  • Malik

    Definitely agree with number 2. Black people are no more homophobic than any other group of people. We have louder homophobic people within the community, but it’s not something pathological about Black people. Something that I’d say is pretty unique among the Black community is the hatred of the idea of “coming out.” Like making a parade (for the lack of a better word) for being with someone the same gender as you. Like among the non-homophobic Black people, we’ll readily accept someone who we all know it’s a public secret that they’re gay (regardless of flamboyancy), but DETEST the idea that they’re constantly tell us they’re gay.

    • LMNOP

      There are some awfully loud homophobic white people too.

      • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

        Westboro Baptist Church: they appear to me as the forerunners of American homophobia made public.

        • http://Twitter.com/ktemjin Kaname

          Those people are just cuckoo.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        There are some awfully loud homophobic white people too.

        yea, anyone who doesn’t believe that just need to visit the comments at espn.com one day

  • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

    I agree about the word homophobic, Champ. It’s not the right word, in most cases. The right word is bigotry.

    As for as are Black people more bigoted in regards to homosexuality; yes.

    I think that there is a certain irony to many people that so many Black people, churches, etc. feel so comfortable talking about denying certain rights to homosexuals. Obviously because of the tough road to equality that African Americans have fought for and continue to fight for.

    So, for many people, including myself, it’s strange how many Black people would not only deny the same rights to homosexuals that they were denied in the past but, many times use the same tired arguments to justify their bigotry as racist Whites used to justify theirs.

    Also, it seems that amazingly high numbers of Black people wholeheartedly believe that homosexuals choose to be homosexual. I think one reason for this belief is that if those Black people were to acknowledge that homosexuals are born homosexual, then they would have to admit to hating those people for something they were born with. Just the same way that those that hate Black people hate us for something that we are born with.

    I used to defend Black people when it was said that as a whole they were more bigoted toward homosexuals than other groups but, not anymore. I think that, for many reasons, Black people are more bigoted in this regard.

    And, when you are Black and homosexual, that’s a hard pill to swallow.

    • Malik

      A big reason Black people are bigoted towards homosexuals and homosexuality is because of the association they make in their minds with white people/whiteness. And those white gay people making the same analogies that you’re making now with gay being the “new” Black.

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        I think you are right about many Black people associating being gay with not only Whiteness but, gay White male privilege. That’s no excuse though. Since obviously there are gay Black folk.

        • Todd

          I think that this treads very close to the house negro/field negro dymanic in tje Black community. I’m not saying I agree, but this phenomenon occurs for more than just gay folk.

        • Malik

          I definitely agree. We DO need to do better with our relationships with one another. Gay people have ALWAYS been part of and integral to the community as a whole Bayard Rustin was as important, if not more, than anyone else in the Civil Rights movement.

          • au napptural

            I think the black people’s problem, or at least mine is, LGBT blacks spit on that Rustin legacy when they support people who say “gay is the new black” or say LGBT issues are more important or more anything than black issues. Or worst of all, when they say they are gay or w/e before black. First, that’s just ignorant. No one can see anything about you but your color when you first meet. W/e you tell them or they see afterward is by your choice. But even if you are in a coma, even if you are dead in the morgue, people will know you are black.

            Rightly or otherwise, Rustin was willing to table his personal life and keep it private to better support the CRM. So to see people appropriating his legacy as an excuse to act the fool with their own rubs me the wrong way. All my skinfolk ain’t my kinfolk, so I’m not saying that being born heavily pigmented you are forced into unyielding loyalty to the black race, for ever. But I think it’s silly so many LGBT people complain of being treated shabbily by black people, only to turn around and take worse treatment from LGBT folks b/c they are white.

            As to the alleged homophobia of the black community, the line has changed, not us. We were progressive first, giving gay people a safe haven when no one else did. Gay choir members, the eccentric uncle, the chronically “single” brother have long since been accepted and cherished by us. We didn’t embarrass them by putting their life on front street, and they in return thank the community for it’s acceptance with silence. Now b/c the white people have decided it’s great to be open with that, black people get a bad rap. Now if people want to say this is a new day and their are new standards for how people want to be treated, that’s fine. But it is beyond disrespectful to ignore the fact, for decades while white people were killing, disowning, and otherwise molesting it’s gay sons and daughters the black community was quietly embracing theirs. Another case of people thinking white thinking is always right thinking.

            • Brother Mouzone

              “Another case of people thinking white thinking is always right thinking”

              *slow clap building to a THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE!!!*

              COMMENT OF THE DAY!!!

            • au napptural

              Wow, there are a ton of grammatical errors in my comment. God forgive me :)

              • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

                So, you think the grammatical errors are the problem?

                How about this.

                “and they in return thank the community for it’s acceptance with silence.”

                So, Black people who are also gay are supposed to just keep quiet because people like you might be made to feel uncomfortable? Wow.

                Your entire comment is that of a bigot.

                • au napptural

                  Way to assume. I simply talked about the history of black gay people in the community in the past. You are hella oversensitive with everything LGBT, but your comments on women make me think of Obsidian. Typical.

    • Rewind

      I was with my godbrother and his friends on Sunday. They were going to the Rihanna concert (by the way, by all rights, Rihanna should be a co-captain for the next Gay Pride Parade, as half the NYC gay community was out stanning hard for her. she needs to stop being a c*nt first). They were all awesome. If I saw anyone treating them unfairly simply for being gay, I’d stab them in the face.

      Black people hating gay Black people makes no sense, when almost every Black family has one gay member. To keep using God as the force field of ignorance is beyond insulting, and to extend this sad belief that we as a group don’t need to get our sh*t together…i’m angry.

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        Actually, I think Beyonce has the gay male fan market cornered.

        Nope, it makes no sense at all. Which is why it’s so frustrating.

        • Rewind

          I know Beyonce got it on lock, but man Rihanna has the second seat behind her.

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

            What about Gaga?

            • Think2Inspire
              • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

                Lol. I’m not sure if he speaks for the general population but, that was an interesting perspective.

                • Rewind

                  I agree with his perspective though. Who really gets to nominate who stands up as the spkesperson for a group? To straight people, its like “ooh Gaga loves gay people”, but in reality, maybe they don’t feel that way. They might feel like she’s using them.

      • http://twitter.com/dtafakari dtafakari

        I was SO with you until this part:

        “she needs to stop being a c*nt first).”

        whaa? blink, blink. I might just be skin-sensitive since I don’t employ the word c*nt and therefore don’t know a good connotation for it (besides it being an easy shock value slur). Nor am I a Rihanna follower/fan. But what do you really mean? She would be a good co-captain for gay pride, except….?

    • Todd

      About the whole Blacks-think-gay-is-a-choice thing, I have an idea of where it may come from. I remember reading that Black LGBT folk are more likely to have been in hetero marriages and, above and beyond that, more likely to have kids, either biological or adopted from relatives. This isn’t to say that other gay groups don’t have opposite sex marriages or kids, but the numbers are higher for Black gay folk to the point that policy makers have noticed.

      This isn’t cosigning the bigotry. That said, when you see a phenomenon around you that cosigns your bigotry, it makes it that much harder to break through and explain people the truth.

      • Todd

        *be explained by people the truth. Not a good typing day for me. :)

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

        Yeah, I can see that, Todd. But, just a little thought on their part should discount that theory.

  • Secret Sauce

    I went to gay bar a few months ago in the new city where I now reside. Never been to one. Only went because I was invited by co-workers who wanted me to see the Wizard of Oz being performed by dudes in drag. But, I couldn’t help but think everyone in that joint assumed I was gay just by my mere presence in that establishment. I haven’t even told anyone in my family or any of my friends I went to a place like that out of fear they might think I’m gay, which I’m not by the way. To me, people believing you’re gay tremendously uncomfortable because you can sense the emasculation.

    • Rewind

      I went to a gay bar in March.

      I’ve now come to the conclusion that gay bars are awesome and I need to go to them more often with the girlfriend.

      • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

        Gay bars are the best. The drinks are better, they’re cheaper, and nobody judges your for dancing like a fool!

        (also, most of the super buff go-go dancers dancing at gay bars are straight, but I’m not gonna tell you how I know that )

        • Rewind

          lmao. I realized that when one dancer gave my girl more play than the gay men trying to tip him…but I think because those men weren’t attractive at all. Either way though…gay clubs are fun.

          I’m still trying to rid my head of the gay porn though. Nobody told me to expect that.

          • Rachmo

            Yeah it’s all fun and games at the gay bar until the gay porn comes on. Then I end up getting flustered and blushing in a corner while my gay friends laugh at my prudishness.

            • Rewind

              lmao. I mean, its not all that serious..but I just wish I had a warning.

              Either way, I just like what i saw..people being chill. No fakeness or posing, though I am sure that happens no matter what club you go to.

        • Brother Mouzone

          (also, most of the super buff go-go dancers dancing at gay bars are straight, but I’m not gonna tell you how I know that )

          Lol…you can keep thinking that if you want to. A lot of women friends of mine would beg to differ.

    • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

      ~ But, I couldn’t help but think everyone in that joint assumed I was gay just by my mere presence in that establishment.

      ooo i just had a flashback to one night at Octagon. it was this awesome underground spot over on the West Side, all gay black thugs and me. odd duck.

      so there i was, trippinn mahh azz off on acid when this guy started dancing with me and i was like, hmm. then i noticed later he was with a coterie of ladies, in as much as they were in various states of trans.

      and for a moment i couldn’t breathe. “he thinks i am a trannie!” i realized. and, well, yea, it was probably the acid, but it was strangely liberating. it made me understand that people’s perceptions are usually based on circumstance and from this they create “facts”. and that if i am willing to understand this then i am the one with the upper hand because i am the only one who knows both what they believe and the truth about who i am.

      that and .. it was just funnnnyyy. considering my past. took a lot (on a personal level) to be comfortable with the possibility a man was attracted to me for believing i had been born a man. ha ha yeaaa ~*~

    • Deeds

      Gay bars can be a blast, especially going to see a drag show. Just seeing how they transform themselves, is like kinda cool.

      One time i went to a lesbian club with a friend of mine and this other woman asked me to dance and I said no thank you. She then got a real confused/stank look on her face. Like it was so weird to get turned down. If I go to a straight club and turn down a man for a dance they don’t see it as some huge affront.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “I haven’t even told anyone in my family or any of my friends I went to a place like that out of fear they might think I’m gay, which I’m not by the way.”

      lol, you even made a point to say “hey…i’m not gay. at all.” in your comment

      • Secret Sauce

        Yep. Which kinda explains the point of your post. LOL

  • Rewind

    Agreed with everything. Especially Black women being just as homophobic as Black Men. In my experience, Black women have been the worst critics of homosexual men, especially homosexual Black Men.

    I specifically remember when Real World Hawaii had a cast member named Karmaro. Very handsome, and the ladies loved him…until he said he was gay. I can’t even count how many women I heard say “that’s just a waste of di_ck”. As if to say if he was straight…he’d f*ck any of them…hilarious.

    So here’s a question…..among with all the other problems Black people have, how much does anyone think our inability to come to terms with our hypocrisy is going to hurt us in the end?

    And…its just my opinion…but there’s a special place in hell for Black homophobic Christians, right next to people still doing the Macarena & the people who made the Pistacho commerical for Psy’s Gangam Style.

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      You should clarify, str8 Black women are just as bigoted. :-)

      And the interesting thing about so many str8 Black women being so bigoted is that being that way is working against their own self-interest. The goal for str8 Black women should be to make as many gay Black men as possible comfortable enough to be completely out. So that they won’t have to worry about being with a guy on the so-called DL. Even though the true numbers of Black men on the DL are way over-stated.

      To your question; it’s always a slippery slope to hate. Because when you do how can you cry about others hating you. Same goes for denial of rights.

      • Todd

        *appaluse*

        Thank you!

        The less homophobia there is, the less BS people have to deal with. That includes the whole DL scene, but it definitely isn’t limited to it. :)

      • Freebird

        “And the interesting thing about so many str8 Black women being so bigoted is that being that way is working against their own self-interest. The goal for str8 Black women should be to make as many gay Black men as possible comfortable enough to be completely out. So that they won’t have to worry about being with a guy on the so-called DL. Even though the true numbers of Black men on the DL are way over-stated.”

        Val!!!!!
        You….man….I agree.

      • Rewind

        I agree, in the same way that I think Black straight men should befriend Black gay men, so that they realize the competition for women out here isn’t that serious. It works in our self-interest. But as with most minorities, we work against our self-interest to spite someone else for reasons unknown.

        You’re right, hate is a slippery slope and most people don’t even realize they fell off already.

      • Deeds

        +1

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      You should clarify, str8 Black women are just as bigoted. :-)

      And the interesting thing about so many str8 Black women being so bigoted is that being that way is working against their own self-interest. The goal for str8 Black women should be to make as many gay Black men as possible comfortable enough to be completely out. So that they won’t have to worry about being with a guy on the so-called DL. Even though the true numbers of Black men on the DL are way over-stated.

      To your question; it’s always a slippery slope to hate. Because when you do how can you cry about others hating you. Same goes for denial of rights.

  • minxbrie

    Helloooo I am back after a week-long birthday celebration (21 and legal everywhere, where is my trip across the border?!)

    Here’s my theory:

    I don’t think it’s a problem with homosexuality as much as it is a conflict with hyper heterosexuality. When you have a group of people that have sexuality so deeply embedded into their system, how are they supposed to approach something that has never been afforded to them? I tend to use Jamaica as an example, but it can be seen in any post-colonial nation. Black people are deviants – men are predators, women are whores… I can never be a rape victim because I am always asking for it and like a some monster, Black men can never resist defiling white women and humping anything that moves.

    Asian people have been completely desexualized in Western culture, so what does that say about them when they are confronted with homosexuality?

    I believe that the Kinsey scale holds merit because like most things in life, there is no black and white. But as part of our social construction as Black people, we have learned to see things as having no exceptions because there has rarely been opportunities afforded to us to understand anything different unless we make an active attempt to seek it out.

    This guy I was talking to just couldn’t understand how I could be so fascinated by queer culture and when I tried to ask him to explain why he didn’t like “the gays”, he couldn’t even articulate a response. He just knew that he was a Jamaican man and he didn’t like gay people. So I don’t think Homophobia is always the answer, it’s just a symptom of a greater issue.

    • Malik

      You should read Sexing the Caribbean Gender Race and Sexual Labor.

      • Todd

        *adds to book reading pile*

        • http://www.twitter.com/epsilonicus Eps

          You should share your entire list

    • Rewind

      Minx got drunk! Minx got drunk!

      Interesting point. Lord knows if you need to find easy homophobes, just point to a Jamaican man. But like most people, they don’t know why they hate gay people, they just do what they were told to do from the beginning. Keep hitting at that inconsistent logic long enough, and they get angry, because they don’t understand what the big deal is. But the deal is, their emotions are manufactured, they don’t actually believe what they feel, but they don’t know how to fight something they grew up with all their lives.

      • 2Rawtid

        It not so much about hating gay people as it is believing that homosexuality is wrong. as is the case in many cultures and countries around the world. there is a difference.

        • Rewind

          Then all one needs to do is make that distinction. But when someone starts ranting about what God wants, and how gay people will burn in hell…last time I checked, that’s called judgment, which is a sin, and God never gave anyone the authority to speak for him.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “I don’t think it’s a problem with homosexuality as much as it is a conflict with hyper heterosexuality. When you have a group of people that have sexuality so deeply embedded into their system, how are they supposed to approach something that has never been afforded to them? I tend to use Jamaica as an example, but it can be seen in any post-colonial nation. Black people are deviants – men are predators, women are whores… I can never be a rape victim because I am always asking for it and like a some monster, Black men can never resist defiling white women and humping anything that moves.”

      interesting point

    • au napptural

      To me, the opposite is at work. How can you ask a people who have always been vilified as sexual deviants to embrace what has long been considered the ultimate sexual deviation? Black people (on the whole, but esp. Christians) have responded to being demonize sexually as whores and insatiable beasts by developing and enforcing a very rigid sexual code.

      Then, conversely black men have often propagated the “positive” myths about their porn star status simply as a way to be masculine in a world where they have very little power. People think to have the LGBT and the black community join forces would eliminate some of these issues. THIS IS NOT TRUE. If anything the opposite would happen. When I watch tv, I’m seeing now a more nuanced view of gay white men and women. If there’s a tv show with a gay, white character, it will most likely show the person in a stable relationship, and usually as a professional (i.e. Grey’s Anatomy, Desperate Housewives, Sex and the City, Glee, every single soap opera, etc.) Plus, there’s variety. You see an effeminate gay man, but the partner will be a masculine dude. Lipstick lesbians AND butcher ones. Now let’s turn to the rep. of black men (I’ve seen maybe one black lesbian on tv, on a scripted show). If it’s a scripted show he’s wildly effeminate even in places where this is impossible (i.e. No. 1 Ladies’ Dec. Agency, Botswana). If a lot of people on the show are LGBT, the black man still is somehow made to be deviant (i.e. True Blood, black drug dealing, gay prostitute). But on run-of-the-mill comedies, mostly feature the effem. gay black man with a string of partners, mostly random one nighters, and no stability (Spin City, screw it I’m too tired to type out that long, long list. Y’all know it’s true.) Not mention reality tv shows always have some black man in a dress, heels, and makeup (ANTM, Bravo Divas, etc.) I predict just like with the growing acceptance of IR relationships, it was backdoor for media to almost never have black people together, should the black community jump on this bandwagon all we’ll see are a bunch of dysfunctional LGBT black people under the guise of fairness.

  • blackphilo

    The more interesting question is why are gay-allied White people so concerned about Black “homophobia.” Whites don’t otherwise care much about what we think or feel–except, of course, when we’re accusing them of racism.

    • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

      “The more interesting question is why are gay-allied White people so concerned about Black “homophobia.””

      Maybe it’s Black LGBT folk who are interested.

      • blackphilo

        Black LGBTs don’t have much control over the public discourse. Nor were they leading the charge in scapegoating Blacks over California Prop 8. The “Blacks are more homophobic” meme is a White thing (though, obviously, some people of color jump on it).

        Of course, Black LGBTs do have special reason for concern about anti-gay attitudes among Blacks.