While I was in undergrad, me and one of my boys had one of those conversations that women swear we never have that involved feelings, emotions, and questioning myself. It was real emo. I’d recently broken up with a girlfriend and was more or less through with dating. When times are good, everything’s unicorns, Esther Baxter bodies, and rainbows in straight clubs. But when times are bad they tend to be real bad. In fact, some of the loneliest times I ever had in my life were while I was IN a relationship.
Well, during this convo that obviously never happens, I remember telling my boy that I think I was more concerned about being a father than a husband. While I could find some way to concubine my way through life with the freedom I wanted, I couldn’t imagine my life without any children. I come from a big family. Everybody’s got multiple children. I love kids. And to be really real…sometimes I wonder if these relationships are even worth it.
Being wrong sucks monkeynuts. And after another failed romance you’ve put time into you start looking for patterns and in the middle of self-reflection question whether or not you’re cut out to be in a relationship at all.
Again, that was all in undergrad. Truth is, I had no idea what the hell I was talking about. Plus, as soon as I found another woman that I liked enough to want to consider gondola rides and matching his-and-hers towel sets with, I stopped thinking so negatively. Plus…what kind of dbag actually WANTS to contribute to a society without enough two-parent households, etc.
Moving on.
Here’s the real talk. I’m a man which means despite the best laid plans of mice and men (and despite the fact that I kind of get paid to communicate) when it comes to interpersonal communication at times, I suck at it. Stupendously. I shut down when my feelings get hurt and I put up a wall that not even my mother can get through. I realize that I have communication issues which as we all know is the effectively the crux of maintaining a healthy relationship. Agreed? Agreed. Like anybody else trying to get to heaven, I’m working on myself and all that good stuff. But man…the only way to work on yourself in this capacity is to be in another relationship. Oy vey. So basically, the only way to grow as a person in this regard is to put yourself out there again and hope for the best and do your best to not be the reason sh*t falls apart.
Okay? Alright? Okay. Alright.
Again ladies, men have these conversations.
Moving on.
Another failed relationship. Another failed relationship.
Kid.
Another failed relationship.
To say that I’ve contributed to the downfall of all of my relationships would be an understatement. While it definitely takes two to tango I’ve learned how inherently selfish men can be. And the thing is, it isn’t even on purpose. We’re just built to do things the way we see them. Women are built to view the world the way they want it. It’s the ultimate catch-22 if two people aren’t on the same page. You can meander through life as a man with all of the female company you need but without the proven life enhancer that comes with being a husband. The interesting piece is that none of my decisions that ended up causing damage were even malicious in the slightest. What starts out as an oversight that could easily be rectified or a conversation that just hasn’t happened comes with an indictment of wrong-doing. Which as any man will tell you, will go really bad really quickly. It’s not that we don’t know we’re wrong, most of us just don’t like being accused of doing your wrong on purpose. If we truly love you, we just aren’t going to do that. We may (and will) f*ck up to varying degrees but it’s usually never on purpose. I think women tend to benefit from Monday Morning Quarterbacking most of those f*ckups. We look ridiculous for something and it’s only because of the end result which gets turned into the purpose. It’s an odd dance.
All of that is quite exhausting and exasperating. It truly is. And sometimes, again, it doesn’t seem worth it.
Oddly enough, the same skill set you need to exist in a healthy relationship with a partner is necessary for a kid. And yet, it’s so much different. Maybe it’s the unconditional love. I don’t know, but I don’t mind having to be an effective communicator with my daughter because I need to instill that into her so that she can take that with her forward. I don’t mind being patient with her because I want her to understand patience. I love being affectionate with my daughter. That’s my flesh and blood. Little girls need hugs and they need to hear from their fathers how much he loves them or she’ll end up dating some guy…
…who’ll want to be a father more than a husband.
F*ck.
Interesting enough, I have neither commitment issues or fear of being married. In fact, I look forward to doing both. But maybe it’s our newfangled generation’s entitlement issues or hope for perfection and ease. Or maybe I’m just lazy. But how can you be a lazy partner and a great father. Except, that happens all of the time. There are lots of women out there with children by men who are as attentive and effective and involved as one could ask for to their kids. And cold as hell to the women who birthed them. Odd future.
I hope I’m alone in this, but I feel like I’m not. Women? Fellas? Does anybody else struggle with this dichotomy? Why?
Talk to me. Petey.
-VSB P aka THE ARSONIST aka YOUNG P DA FLY THEIF aka FATHER OF THE YEAR CANDIDATE NUMBER 1 aka GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRL HE A 3
***If you haven’t already, head on over to The Good Men Project and check out “Eating While Black” — The Champ’s take on being black in America today***
See….I’m a baby mama and I’d MUCH rather be a wife.
But tis life…
The skills that make me a great mother made me a GREAT gf/wifey. In fact, it was said that I was too great, which is why I am now alone.
I don’t get it, but you’re a man, so maybe you do.
I definitely agree that there are certain skills that a mother has that are fabulous for a relationship (such as patience and communication skills just to name a couple), but do you agree that there are certain things separate from being a parent that folks need in order to have a successful relationship?
Or — and this is the scary part — is it the same skills required yet you haven’t found the person worthy of applying said effort for?
I do agree that there are separate skills that are needed to have a succesful relationship that might not be needed to be a wonderful parent, however I also feel that at the core, since they are both relationships (being a parent and being a spouse) there are MAJOR elements that are going to carry over.
Patience, communication, compromise, negotiation, understanding – all the building blocks of successful relationships. PERIOD.
As for this question “Or — and this is the scary part — is it the same skills required yet you haven’t found the person worthy of applying said effort for?”
I also agree with this. See, my problem is that I cant — or just won’t — separate the two. When I go in, I . Go. In.
If I’m in a relationship and giving any skills, then I’m giving all of them. Does that mean there have been some unworthy benefactors of the kindnesses of my heart? Yes. But I don’t believe in doing things half-arsed because then I’d be creating a habit of only giving myself partway that could carry over into my relationship with my daughter.
Yup, I feel ya. I guess the key difference is how you apply them. Like with a kid, do you really have to learn to be vulnerable with them? It seems automatic for some folks. Of course that “love at first sight” thing with children is not what ALL parents feel, but it definitely happens more often than it does with a potential mate.
It’s different for everyone (I think. Wouldn’t know, cause I ain’t everyone. LOL)
With me, I had to learn how to be vulnerable with my mini. I didn’t cry when she was born. I just looked at her like “Oh wow. You were IN me and now you’re OUT of me. And you look like an alien”
At six months, I still have to remind myself that for better or worse, she is all mine.
I have to make a conscious effort to vocally tell her that I love her.
Part of that stems from the fact that my parents didn’t really say the words “I Love You”, my sister and I wre just expected to know because there was a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs, food on the table and paid cell phone bills with texting. I had no doubts that my parents loved us, but I wanted to hear the words.
That’s an example of what I meant earlier, because I’m not in the habit of saying I love you, I now have to get back in the habit so that I can say it to my kid. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna run around saying it to everyone, but I still have to re-learn how to say it with ease.
you’re ex told you that you were too great and for that he had to leave you alone? that doesnt make much sense to me. i’m sure we’ve written something on here that alludes to guys not being ready to meet the woman of their future at certain times…but i dont know that i’d decide to make the leap to be with somebody and feel like she was just too good at everything and in that sense i’d need to leave her.
my guess is that most men leave b/c they’re not sure they’re with the right person. i dont know if you’d think somebody was that great if you didnt think they were the right person. granted, some guys have their own personal sh*t to get over and thru but i think thats a different argument.
PJ, I’ve had a guy tell me I was going to be a great wife, but that he wasn’t ready for a wife, so that’s why he left…that I was too good for him, and would treat him way better than he deserved (o_O) so he roll bounced up out of the situation…granted, this was some time ago, and I clearly wasn’t up to par of where I now think I should be to be someone’s wife, but it happened to me too…
Its such a loooong and convoluted story, but essentially, yes, that was his reason for not staying with me…and also his reason for NOT staying away.
I read the post that you were talking about. My issue is, if he didn’t/doesn’t think that I’m the right person, then I’m gonna need for him to move away and go find the right person!! Because I would much rather be a wife than just the mother of his child, I feel stuck. I want my child to grow up in a 2 parent home. I would prefer that home be made with her biological father which is why there is as much communication as there is between us. (Not to the exclusion of all other males; he just has a slight edge in preference)
But, that’s another set of issues that ain’t got nuttin to do with this post, eh?
You got me with “that was his reason for not staying with me…and also his reason for NOT staying away”. I hate this, the not staying away part…..I recently went through this for 2 years…You don’t want to be with me but you don’t want to let me go. Unfortunately I shouldn’t have allowed it to even go on that long but it was hard. But you have to decide either you want me or you don’t, don’t leave me hanging on because you see I have the qualities that you want-but you’re not ready yet-you don’t want to see me slip away and ultimately live a life with someone else syndrome. I think this is where a lot of women….myself included…mess up. That in between stage, waiting to see if things will change instead of just letting go. I made up in my mind that I didn’t want to look up and be 40……still holding on to someone who thinks I’m awesome yet not ready for me but still want to be involved in my life. I’m with P, if the man thinks your that great, father of your child or not, they DON’T let you go, sounds like he just wasn’t ready or viewed you as his one and that was his get-out-of-jail-free card…..sweetly used. As for the single parent thing I totally understand. This year will make 8 years since my husband passed. I still have 2 children to raise that are now becoming teens and please believe it’s no walk in the park……but us mom’s do what we have to do. Don’t keep that door open and look up one day with him still there. Trust me, you’re gonna have to shut that door (outside of being parents to your child) ’cause he won’t. As much as I loved my previous relationship I had to cut ALL ties. Was the only way I could move on ’cause he would always find a way to keep communication.
I don’t know about that P.
I’m on the verge of doing that with my current girlfriend. I realize that she is definitely wife material and what most men would love to have around their arms, but I’m nowhere close to the future she envisions and I realize I may have to take a few steps away from her instead of giving her a sense of false hope. It can happen. Hell even women do it, because I’ve had it done to me as well.
you said what most men envision though. do you? you say she’s wife material. i know a bunch of wife material women. cant say they all make me feel like they’re the one. i mean everything you said was about her. she’s this and that…and future she envisions…but you didnt say that you see her as the wife of your future. it sounds to me like she just aint the one.
so my question is…do you think she’s the one for you? and if so, why are you willing to let the “one for you” go?
No I don’t feel like she’s the one for me. Then again, I don’t necessarily believe in that ideology. I believe we meet many people in life who shape the person we will eventually become through trials and tribulations. I believe her presence in my life was to help me through one of the roughest patches of my entire life, and vice versa for her, but I don’t think it was meant to be forever.
If there is a “one for me” woman out there, I’m not sure how I’ll get to her, but I also realize I intellectualize this stuff too much. Most people just say “let your heart guide the way”. I just lack confidence in what my heart says at this point and time.
If you don’t want to be a baby mama, don’t be. I’m not with my daughter’s father anymore, but the phrases “baby mama” and “baby daddy” both seem very disrespectful to me. I don’t use them to describe other parents or myself.
It might be just semantics, but so is the difference between “could you please keep it down, I have a really bad headache.” and “shut the f-ck up.”
Yea, I see it as semantics.
I understand what you’re saying, really I do, and to a certain sense, I agree.
To me, it’s not necessarily in the title, but in the relationship and the actions and he and I have devolved into the baby mama/daddy side of things.
Also as my father reminded me, “a rose by any other name is still a f-ckin rose”
it is a semantics thing (though i understand the point) but i always refer to my daughter’s mother as such. i def ain’t finna call her no BM. cuz that’s not what she is.
I know what you were saying though. I’m in the same situation, and it can be really hard sometimes whatever you call it.
But I really do think that people underestimate the power of language. Like would a rose really smell as sweet if it was called a garbage juice flower?
This also made me remember when I was pregnant and my boyfriend at the time told me “Whatever happens, don’t call me your baby daddy.” I was like “Wait. WHAT?” Shockingly enough, “whatever” “happened.”
I told my ex wife that she’d be a great wife, just not for me. Looking back, I know that I was really saying she had a great audition. Im starting to notice that I’ve never looked for a wife, which is the opposite for many women. She decided, in her head, that I was going to be her husband …then gave the ultimatum. She had dated guys before me and done the same. She said, did all the right things until she got what she wanted.
She routinely gave her all to every guy she got serious with. And what I think so many women don’t understand is that men see this ALL the time. There are many women that say and do exactly what we want, then don’t get why we turn away. It’s boring. Most times not real- its an audition and we see through it. Just think, Coming to America
@Lyndon
Interesting perspective
You’re a dumb azz. You got everything you want, and turned away from it?
What is the alternative? A b*tchy woman who could give two shits about what you want? Would that make you happy? j
Y’all are just… *sigh*… I give up.
I have this same conundrum. I was thinking artificially inseminate (spl) a lesbian so I don’t have to deal with the perils of the relationship, but that’s just odd…the problem is that the light we see as being a great father, we don’t see as being a great spouse. Sad but true.
Artificial insemination works wonders. How else do you think I created my army of minions?
Mr Coach-the problem is that the light we see as being a great father, we don’t see as being a great spouse.
Dude that is profound as fug! Women will genuinely cream and gush over a man taking care of his kids being their for them. But, a man taking care of his woman and supporting her, while praised on the outside with lip service, in reality is critiqued and side eyed, for being weak or lacking.
the problem is that the light we see as being a great father, we don’t see as being a great spouse. Sad but true
definitely some truth there but i think its just b/c of how we tend to view fathers in our community. for some odd reason, actual fathers get all kinds of extra special kudos and sh*t though ideally all those fathers would be attached to a woman. it is odd.
i think its because while the intent behind being a good father and good spouse are the same, they carry different weights, and have different catalysts (i hope i used that word right). I mean, think about it. As a souse, we have vows. We have to wllingly commit and pledge to not do a person wrong. When you have a child, something that comes from you, there is no vow needed. Babies aren’t born with instructions, but the SECOND that child enters the world, and you hold it, there’s this unspoken commitment that just kind of turns ON. I bet a guy will feel worse that he let his child down over a spouse. That feeling spawns unconditional love that doesnt have to be renewed like a wedding vow, and it doesn’t ask for anything in return, per se. With romance, we want something, be it sechs, a meal, support, whatever. A child though? All of your feelings point right back to that child being nurtured to have a decent life. Parental love is unconditional, agape. Eros (erotic love) i believe, just isn’t as strong or as binding.
“Parental love is unconditional, agape. Eros (erotic love) i believe, just isn’t as strong or as binding.”
Hmnn….this makes me think of the age old questions spouses first or children? I tend to view a marriage commitment as binding, I don’t know if I see it as more or less binding than parental love. I mean 2 becoming one is pretty strong. What I do believe is that love must be more than a feeling, it must be a will to commit.
A will to commit to your spouse, a will to commit to your children. I think many ppl would be better spouses/parents if they had that will.
Without doubt. I think we’ve forgotten the significance of that commitment. And i still think that it holds extreme value, it just takes some work. I don’t think ones holds more value than the other, but I think with offspring, its a little easier for love to be more or less automatic, for varying reasons (be they selfish or unselfish). Women come in to the world wired to love and nurture. And i believe men come designed to protect and provide. With children being innocent, with no alterior motives, with no intent to hurt or cause pain, added to the fact that they come from our own bodies, makes them easier to love and to commit to. Adults come with agendas and ish, hidden or not. Kids just want to be loved and eat candy.
And i’ve had the “save the spouse or the children” convo a MILLION times, and i still don’t know which one i’d save.
Completely agree. I believe making a commitment to another grown adult is totally different from the commitment one makes to a child. Adults come with expectations, issues and baggage (some even need you to “complete” them), whereas kids are innocent and only expect what you provide on a day-to-day basis. They have none of the emotional garbage of adults. Committing to an adult is difficult because it takes work…we tend not to have patience/tolerance for grown azz adults who by xyz age haven’t gotten their shyt together; nor do we feel it is 100% of our responsibility to nurture and/or make that person a better human (they should be there at this point or well on their way). With children, I suspect, because they are a representation of the parent, parents want them to do better, be better, know more, run faster, jump higher, etc, etc….parents want the world for them and will do whatever is necessary to give it to them.**
**I have no children, so this assessment is based strictly on my personal observations.
Took the words right out of my comment.
“Committing to an adult is difficult because it takes work…we tend not to have patience/tolerance for grown azz adults who by xyz age haven’t gotten their shyt together; nor do we feel it is 100% of our responsibility to nurture and/or make that person a better human (they should be there at this point or well on their way).”
This.
Good point.
When you’re in a relationship, you realize it is a CHOICE. As in you have options if you get jittery about where you stand. With children, for MANY (obviously not all), your commitment is automatic and a person is willing to see it to the end, They don’t view it as a choice although you can make one (obviously you will be heavily slighted though if you make it).
Rewind
I think that commitment to children is equally as fleeting as it is to adults. There are countless parents (particularly mothers) who see their children as just a daily reminder of the poor choices that were made during a steamy night of passion. Therefore they are not invested for life but until 18 or 21…basically until the courts can’t say that they are no longer legally responsible for them. Even then do you hear the familiar threat of sending a child “to go live with their father” if their behavior is not in line for their expectations,or better yet into foster care. You would be surprised at how often I tell parents the expectation they have for their 13 year old is waaay outta wack because while they are 13, 16, or 7 they are still a CHILD. Which means there are a whole bunch of real physiological / developmental stages that need to happen.
I think that whenever you are dealing with another person, you have to have some kind of patience, compromise or communication skills, basically the stuff you learned in Pre-K & Kindergarten (sharing, taking turns, and being able to tell someone you gotta go to the bathroom). If you can’t share your toys with someone else how are you going to share your life with a partner?
Well that’s why I said with children, the feeling to care and provide feels natural, instead of forced for many people, but definitely not all. I get a front row seat to the obvious world of people who made bad decisions and the children who pay the price every day at work, let alone just my own observations.
I feel like with a significant other though, people know there is something to be gained. You could be with a person just for security, love, money, etc, and walk away when you’re ready. There will be consequences but obviously many people could careless. With children though….there isn’t much to gain by having them if you just wanted to use them. I believe that shows the shallowness of people. I agree both being a lover and a parent requires similar attributes but they also have vast differences in what one can gain from each.
Awwww, I have a whole new perspective of you….
I’d much rather be a good mother than a good wife. Being a good mother comes easy to me…selflessness, great communicator, etc. – piece of cake. Being in relationships with black men nowadays? Not so easy…the qualities that make me a good mother also make me not so great on the dating scene.
That’s how it is…
You could ask Giz…
the qualities that make me a good mother also make me not so great on the dating scene.
why exactly is that?
Because people like southernqt (and me) are natural born nurturers and not natural born flirters.
I think its the nurturing aspect that can turn alot of guys off at times. They don’t want to date their mother. They don’t need us to do everything for them and a lot of times as women that’s exactly what we try to do.
So a guy can think we’re great because we are nurturing and affectionate but eventually he can see that as an irritation because we act more like a mother than a spouse or a partner.
I can’t tell you what she meant by that, but I can tell you what I read in it.
As a woman, as a mother, the way that I am, the way that comes natural to me is to nurture, to support, to trust, to build up, to work as a team. The dating game seems to require a lot of faux (in my case) resistance. When I don’t like a man, he loves me; but if I like a man and show affection, they’re not interested. Many men seem to love the chase. The challenge, the ibtch, if you will.
I want to offer up all of me to the man that I love, but men push these women away. They’re needy, they’re clingy, they’re desperate, whatever. The dating game goes against my very nature, but it compliments child rearing perfectly (as it was designed to IMO).
*throws in my discombobulated 2 cents*
Best comment of the day. Especially this:
“The dating game seems to require a lot of faux (in my case) resistance. When I don’t like a man, he loves me; but if I like a man and show affection, they’re not interested. Many men seem to love the chase. The challenge, the ibtch, if you will.
I want to offer up all of me to the man that I love, but men push these women away. They’re needy, they’re clingy, they’re desperate, whatever. The dating game goes against my very nature, but it compliments child rearing perfectly (as it was designed to IMO).”
YUP.
“I want to offer up all of me to the man that I love, but men push these women away. They’re needy, they’re clingy, they’re desperate, whatever. The dating game goes against my very nature, but it compliments child rearing perfectly (as it was designed to IMO).
*throws in my discombobulated 2 cents*”
*adds $5 to the collection plate*
THIS is EXACTLY what I was thinking in my head and did not type!
“The dating game seems to require a lot of faux (in my case) resistance. When I don’t like a man, he loves me; but if I like a man and show affection, they’re not interested. Many men seem to love the chase. The challenge, the ibtch, if you will.”
never a truer word spoken… I’m not a mother yet because I’d really rather have a child with the man I’m going to spend my life with and I’m terrified of the prospect of being a single parent, i’ve seen too many friends doing it and though I’m strong, I have a million personal hang-ups about the idea. I am however, nurturing as hell and I’ve grown so damn tired of the whole “dating scene” because I swear swimming with barracuda while nursing an open wound would be easier and more comforting. the games, the uncertainty, just the overall bullshit is simply too much for me to deal with and I’m quite tired of it. If this shit continues, I may have to bite the bullet and just have a kid and be done with it. *sigh*
“I want to offer up all of me to the man that I love, but men push these women away. They’re needy, they’re clingy, they’re desperate, whatever. The dating game goes against my very nature, but it compliments child rearing perfectly (as it was designed to IMO).”
Gotta call foul… I agree there are some fools out there who love the chase for the chase alone and urge you to run from them fast and far. Good men love supportive, nurturing women… With their own lives who also know when to give a good man his well deserved space. This is also a good parenting trait… Constant doting prevents children from growing up to be independent thinkers and leaders.
Thank you ladies.
To Ms Watkins, please don’t confuse my desire to work as a team, even my desire for submission to indicate that I will be a doormat or constantly dote-on my man or my children. As with my (as yet imaginary) children; boundaries, expectations, consequences, the occasional whoopin, and tough love are still required. I understand men not wanting a woman with no personality of their own, with no backbone, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that sometimes it seems that men prefer the hunt more than the prey and I’m tired of running, I’m trying to eat.
Thank you ladies.
To Ms Watkins, please don’t confuse my desire to work as a team, even my desire for submission to indicate that I will be a doormat or constantly dote – on my man or my children. As with my (as yet imaginary) children; boundaries, expectations, consequences, the occasional whoopin, and tough love are still required. I understand men not wanting a woman with no personality of their own, with no backbone; but that’s not what I’m saying.
I’m saying that sometimes it seems that men prefer the hunt more than the prey and I’m tired of running, I’m trying to eat.
Starlita, I understood and was responding to your quote about how men push away nurturing women. So I pointed out this fact: That isn’t universally true. I do agree with how you describe the teamwork approach: “As a woman, as a mother, the way that I am, the way that comes natural to me is to nurture, to support, to trust, to build up, to work as a team.”
I’m encouraging you not be discouraged by the predators. Sounds like you’re rightly focused on the men who want the awesome qualities you demonstrated you have.
MicTheMessenger, good point: “If a guy is only interested in you when you’re not showing interest…Not ready to settle down.”
I know friends of mine who want people who don’t want them. Why bother?
I agree with you on this, Ms./Mrs. Watkins.
If a guy is only interested in you when you’re not showing interest, but turns off when you turn on is DEFINITELY in it for the chase, and is not ready to settle down. But a decent guy who’s genuinely interested in you will actually desire many of these things. And yes, we need our space to do us, but who doesn’t? I don’t think the point of marriage is to lose yourself completely to a role, but moreso to bring your unique contributions to the table with another unique individual and attempt to be happy, and hopefully produce offspring that will contribute to society. And all of those things these women mentioned above work great in a healthy relationship. Not so much mommy mode all the time, but def a hot meal and some nurturing. Women I promise you all, if you take time and nurture a man and his talents, he’ll do his absolute best to elevate his family, and he’ll elevate himself AND his particular skill. Fighting crime at its very best, VSPs…
So much truth in this post Starita. Well put.
I’m with you. Anyone who’s ever seen me even talk to a child has always said I’d be a great father. I don’t necessarily see it because kids scare the crap out of me, but I’ve always had a natural charm with them. Women on the other hand, I just want to care for a minute and walk away, and maybe that’s just some natural stereotypical man stuff I’ve always heard of, or I do actually have a self-image and emotional problem when it comes to caring for a lover.
But I could never see those issues getting in the way of being a father, if I ever become one. The only issue I see that hinders being a good parent is selfishness, because many adults are scared to lose their freedom. But when it comes to relationships, many people will fight tooth and nail over their freedom, willing to screw someone’s life over just to be able to feel the way they felt before the relationship started.
Both parenthood and a long lasting relationship scare the crap out of me. I spent my whole life being selfless for other people. I finally get to be selfish…so now I’m too scared to give it up, for a child or a woman. I realize I don’t want to be alone, but I’d rather stay where I am now and hurt myself, rather than hurt a child with a clean slate on life, or a woman who’s already been hit by that brick wall called LIFE.
I do believe many people go through a phase where they try to evaluate which option is more sensible, but I also believe many people don’t even realize the option until they’ve either had a child, fallen in love with someone but too scared to move forward, or both at the same time. So it’s hard to determine what standard can truly measure your mind’s maturity and your heart’s capacity to care.
Perhaps it’s not just if you’d be a better parent or a better lover, but which one would make you a better person overall…maybe that is the true dilemma.
hopefully i’ll never have to choose between the two but if i did i think i would honestly be a husband rather than a father. sure i would want the joys of raising someone with my ideals and morals and having someone who looks like me but the joy of sharing my life with a woman seems just a little more rewarding.
my children will eventually leave my house and go on with their lives. assuming i stay married till i die that relationship is for life.
good point. and at the end of the day, nobody wants to be alone.
as great philosopher king Chris Rock once said, “new p*ssy can’t cook.”
oh, and new p*ssy is also illiterate.
chris rock speaks the truth.
I know men with your view who are happily married for that reason. They and their wife are truly into each other & the joy of sharing their life post- raising kids.
this is what i believe..and am a woman
Wow. I was having a conversation about this today. I’m dealing with someone who does a lot of frustrating things, but I suspect it isn’t on purpose. I think men are often singularly focused (career, education, etc.) and women tend to focus on others a bit more. I guess it’s the nurturer in us.
I think men are often singularly focused (career, education, etc.) and women tend to focus on others a bit more. I guess it’s the nurturer in us.
i might be alone is in this but i’m very much driven by my “to-do” list. meaning, one thing gets done, then i focus on another. i’m frustrated as hale by the chorus of society, culture, and family because being a wifey has never been high on my list. either because i’ve always assumed it was coming or because i’d rather expend my energy on my other talents in other areas or because i don’t know if i’d ever meet some man worth that sacrifice. (see: Bumilla’s long suffering moms)
however, i’ve always wanted to be a mommy. i love babies, toddlers, childrens, all of them. and i’m pretty good with them to boot. the idea of some chunk of mine roaming these streets is exciting. but the wifey part? not so much. this is not to say that i want to raise children with no physically active, financially responsible father. i just don’t know if their father is my husband, my provider, my lover.
i know this doesn’t make sense. or at least i know it only makes sense to lauryn and erykah. but it’s the vision that i’ve had for as long as i can remember. makes wedding season all the more fun!
Real chop. I have never been mad at Lauryn for having all those kids. I hate to say it but I get it. Well I get what I would be thinking if I were her.
“I think men are often singularly focused (career, education, etc.) and women tend to focus on others a bit more. I guess it’s the nurturer in us.”
I think this gap is narrowing significantly these days, though. There are SO many career first driven women walking around. Maybe it’s in reaction to the how things have evolved, love not working out, a combination of those things… but I’m definitely seeing more people putting their non-love goals before anything. And that includes women.
i also think this is partially to “blame” for the fact that so many women are single so much longer. actually, i think i just stated what has been expressed in articles, science books, jet magazine, and Martian Weekly.
Agreed. A man with a busy schedule and a career will still find time for a woman or a girlfriend or take a wife IF that’s what he wants. Yet a woman will use her career as a reason why she’s not ready for a man. (rather than say she doesnt want one) But a man hears her say that and says ok I’ll leave that one alone.
“i also think this is partially to “blame” for the fact that so many women are single so much longer.”
Yup. And I think a lot of that is reactionary to either direct experiences or what they saw in their own household growing up. Diving into work headfirst is often a self-presevation for some women. They figure they will probably have to take care of themselves anyway so they might as well get “priorities” out of the way. I mean, bottom line is, it depends what folks deem as priorities. But said priority is easier when it comes to trying to keep a roof over your head (and living the life you want to live in terms of financial aspects) so of course women would choose career first. lol
I also think that we have bought into the belief that you “can have it all.” I am a multi-degreed VSS who was married at one point along the way. We were both in grad school, but he did a better job of balancing home life with graduate work and teaching responsibilities. Me on the other hand…I was doing waaaaay too much and really thought that I could do it all! The truth is…if you do it all, something will not be done right (or at up to our version of perfection). Realizing that and more importantly, accepting that is key. Plus, my father always drilled into my head to get my education, earn your own money, and by all means don’t fall for them fifteen cent slicks! LOL
Agreed. My father always pushed the “get educated, work hard in your career and only marry for love, never for security” edict throughout my childhood. I’m 40 and have never been married. He worries now that maybe he pushed me being independent a bit too much but I don’t agree. I can take care of myself and don’t worry about the possibility of being alone for the rest of my life.
I want to be a mother more than a wife because I’m afraid I’d make a terrible co-parent. I’m the oldest of four children and a former nanny. I love children and I think I’d be a great wife…until I became a mother. I fear I’d suddenly begin to sometimes treat my husband (if he had less experience with children) like another child. I know my weaknesses. I’m working on them now, so I don’t pay for them later. Still, the fear is there.
i was reading some article some time ago about that phenomenon and the frustration that it caused for a lot of men. many guys felt like their women’s entire focus became the child and then started treating the spouse in a similar fashion. not tending to wife duties, etc.
I think it’s hormonal changes post-child and limiting beliefs about of her sexuality and woman-ness and lack of trust that leads to that. Some women become mommies and think they should treat their man like he is her child. I cringe inside when a woman treats her husband like that and even talks in the same tone she talks to a 2 year old. And I cringe when friends with babies talk about lack of sex as if it’s no big deal. And their spouse has lost the pep to his step.
Pretty insightful. Seeing the problem is the first step right?
Although I want to have a gaggle of children after being firmly ensconced in a committed and loving marriage; I still look forward to marriage more than parenthood. Maybe it’s because there are so many people who don’t value marriage anymore. If I ever find out that I can’t biologically have children, I have options; but what are the options for not meeting someone that you want to spend your life with?
excellent point… and i totally agree
@Mailuv7 – I would also choose marriage over parenthood. I want the man of my dreams to sweep me off my feet. I want us to live and love each other. I want us to fight. I want us to work through it. I want us to have an affair to remember with all the highs and lows that are associated with it.
I want a companion, not a dependent.
Yep I would rather be a wife then a mother anyday.
After spending countless hours on FB and killing my mobile, due to checking the whereabouts of family offspring, due to the fucked up riots throughout the island yesterday. I am still holding down “no kids till I get a husband who will stop me killing them straight”. Three days of madness escalated into one night/morning of hand in heart rage. All I keep thinking in my head is “This is the parents fault, why are kids on the damm streets, no excuse for this collected acts of crime”. If one of my children were taking part in any of the shamefull looiting I would be devasted, and that is what I would rather avoid. If my marriage fails, the ownership is partly my fault, when your child is a creatin,trust you get full responsability.
Fuck kids after last night/early morning I’m moving into a garden flat so I can become a bloody dog loving freak (no cats hate those dead bird gifts).
* Today I will be full of venom and hate for all things under 25yrs, so please charge the red eyes and drunk on green tea and crackers to my head not my heart*
** I am still wheeling my baseball bat in my hand the good metal one, not the wood one imagining several kids trying to come into my home**
And I hope for their sake that they do not come into your house.
2nd time losing my comments, not writing a nice peice again.
Let me first apolgise, in advance. Been a hard night/early morning due to the f$£ked up riots throughout the country. So I will say most of my comments are fulled by too much green tea, jacob crackers and rage.
No kids without assistance. I would rather be a wife then a mother, anyday of the week. For anybody who did not see the stupid senseless riots, mainly last night. Shame on any parent/guardian/relative who’s child was looiting and causing hundreds of people to be homeless and jobless this morning. I would rather hold the burden of mashing up my marriage and having to be SINgle again, then knowing I failed at raisining a decent child and them, turning into the band of my existence. Children are for life, and no matter what you do, they can be infulenced and go another way from your teachings of good morales and ethics. Yes that’s true. But trust. If you set good foundations, strong ” I will skin you alive, if you bring me shame” foundations that chld/ren will not even hestiate to think about taking a step out of your boundaries.
I spent hours on FB making sure family/friends were cool. I knew not to be too worried cause my family are kind of older, and most of the little ones under 20yrs are abroad, or in some holiday activity camps (aka Church/Mosque/Black movement running 6wks of crazy fun, but locked down). But some friends are rasiing their broads alone, men and women. Some have spouces working abroad,armed forces and passed away. Those need assistance sometimes more than others. Glad not one person I know had children running the streets, cause hand in heart, I had my baseball bats (wood and metal) ready for their asses.
I want a companion, not a dependant also.
* Like I said before excuse my evil comments towards children and all those under 25yrs today charge my rage not my heart, but I dispise kids right now*
i hope that everything ’round your way is cool (you and yours are safe) and that justice…is somehow reached.
It’s was so ridiculous out here, I’m in Hackney,. It’s been kicking off since 2:00 PM. I’ve been trying to figure out or even understand what’s going on but it just boils to ‘wotless’, short-sighted people, because the Adults were looting, or sending their Kids to loot.
What I don’t understand is the children who have looted goods, whose house are they bringing those goods into? If I ever tried that stupidness my Parents would not have a bar of it!
It’s just so sad to see people you know; have their livelihood, cars and homes destroyed right in front of them.
@ Antoniette have you seen the “west indian women speech” going round on youtube/twitter and stylist.co.uk. She made Hackney proud.
Well as I had the day off, I went to the city centre to help clean up. Had to come back home, as the town is being seen as a crime scene. That alone makes me want to kick ass.
A relative (who just turned 25yrs) tried to bring stolen goods to his home this morning, and was met with packed bags and things in boxes instead. For once my family was in full aggrement in something like this taking place. Nobody deserves the sleepless nights of rage from other neighbours,because your wotless child thinks a free laptop and some trainers are worth more than your sanity.
All for marriage but long term childcare, hell no. I’ve alreday fully signed onto the childfree enviroment yaesr ago. What took place these few days have made my stance even more concreate.
@ Leonie UK
I saw the clip of the woman, she was speaking the truth. I was born in London and have lived in Hackney all my life, and have never felt such shame.
What upsets me the most is that innocent people are being held to ransom. My girl lives in the flats just across from where the woman was filmed, but because she lives alone, we decided she should come stay with my family up the road. Why should a law-abiding tax-payer not feel safe in their home?
I have off-street parking so I let a family-friend come park their car by me. Why should people be afraid to park their cars infront of their home?
These fool-fool children will not deter me from having my own family. I’m not wotless, My parents aren’t wotless, so no child of mine could ever be wotless!!!!
It’s sad to see the ninjas vs. Black people war has crossed the Atlantic. Thankfully, you’re on the side of the good guys. Also, much props to your fam for not supporting the looting foolishness. Keep safe, take care of yourself, and worse comes to worse, there are plenty of decent West Indians in NYC.
“If I ever find out that I can’t biologically have children, I have options; but what are the options for not meeting someone that you want to spend your life with?”
Blow-up dolls. For real doe, ya’ll seen Strange Addiction? Right…But yeah, that’s a good point. It’s interesting though… I truly believe that each of these types of love touches on a different part of our heart. Like I think one part of us responds to each in a different way. And depending on what we need or desire, that’s the type of love we seek.
good point. makes total sense.
My father was an awesome dad…he was a suck ass husband for many of the reasons you listed. Add youth, hard life situations and him being an attractive man who wouldn’t say no to strays and you can see part of why my parents divorced.
Oddly enough, a great father doesn’t make one a great husband sadly. I do think dealing with kids is easier because they don’t know…courtesy, respect, consideration…all that has to be taught to them more or less. With adults, we take for granted that someone just “knows” about all those things and when they do something to the contrary, we believe it was done out of disrespect or malice (which isn’t necessarily true).
I look forward to being a lifelong partner and parent. Being a wife isn’t all that meaningful to me if I’m not willing to make the commitment to be a life partner.
I look forward to being a lifelong partner and parent. Being a wife isn’t all that meaningful to me if I’m not willing to make the commitment to be a life partner.
this is the real b!tch. my biological clock is obviously deciding one part of this equation. but the other part? i don’t feel compelled to keep it on the same schedule, which in mainstream society means getting married. i’ve met half a dozen or so men whom i know would have made/make an excellent father to my baby(s). but anytime someone suggested i “do something” about that feeling of mine, i always started giggling. i’m not that pressed. at least not yet. #paginghalleberry
we take for granted that someone just “knows” about all those things and when they do something to the contrary, we believe it was done out of disrespect or malice (which isn’t necessarily true).
that’s that real right there. i think as we get older we all get so focused on protecting ourselves for various reasons that we view everything as a personal affront and deal with sh*t that way. i guess that’s why communication is key.
Panama: ” i guess that’s why communication is key.”
Emphatic agreement on communication being key.
This however? –>”But man…the only way to work on yourself in this capacity is to be in another relationship.” I disagree emphatically that the way to figure out how to be in a relationship is to be in one. Too many folks mistakenly apply the practice makes perfect motto to relationships. In fact, the only way to really master the art of loving someone else is to master loving yourself first… Alone.
Truer words have never been spoken. If have never knows what loving you feels like, how can you truly love another?
you know…you’re right. that was a lazy conclusion on my part.
I can completely understand where you’re coming from even though I’m not a fan of kids until they reach the age where they are able to talk. I’ve often think about adopting kids or going through artificial insemination to have someone else that I have had no relations with, but with good genes, carry my child. Being a single father doesn’t bother me. If I were to have more than 1 child however, I would like that to be within a family.
” But how can you be a lazy partner and a great father. Except, that happens all of the time. There are lots of women out there with children by men who are as attentive and effective and involved as one could ask for to their kids. And cold as hell to the women who birthed them. Odd future.”
That’s the rare exception rather than the rule. I wish you and yours the best truly but to think you your young can be well adjusted without the full deal is like waiting for those lotto numbers to hit. She will only expect what she can see being demonstrated by the ones that are invested in her the most. Again Im hoping the best for you but don’t sell that pixie dust to the masses. I pray every night to maintain my family and only hope that for you as well. Two Christmases, two Thanksgivings, two sets of parents to visit on Easter break = equals too much confusion to allow the growth needed for fulfillment. Here’s hoping you and yours are the exception to the rule.
you’re right. that was a lazy extrapolation. and you know, to be clear since i clearly wasn’t in what i wrote, i dont think its okay to be cold as hell to the women that birthed any child.
i could never be that way towards my daughter’s mother. it’s already hard enough trying to co-parent and work together under straining circumstances (though it gets a little easier with time much like anything else) so to be cold would just add all kinds of unnecessary detriment to the stituation which would ultimately affect the child. so yes…thanks for pointing out that non-sense.
in the context of my own life…my singular focus is maintaing a positive situation within the family i created because even if we’re not together as a familial unit, we are family. so i’d never go that route.
“Does anybody else struggle with this dichotomy? Why?”
I can’t say I do Peej.
It all comes from the same well for me.
I don’t know if I can properly it into words. The thought of surprising my husband with a meal or singing my baby to sleep all come from some place in my core. I can’t really separate two. It’s all an outpouring of whatever is in there. I want to love.
I see what you’re saying. I’m sure most of the other commentors will relate.
For me, all of it is relationship. I’m not really sure if any of that makes sense. This is one of those times where what I feel is more intense than what I can articulate.
I was gonna type up something, but I think you captured my feelings on the subject, so I’ma go ahead and cosign. +1
it would be nice to have it come from the same place. then i wouldn’t have to wonder why it doesn’t.
I have no idea if this will help, but your comment made me wonder about why I felt this way. I remembered a favorite verse of mine and it clicked.
“No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” 1J 4:12
I guess both feelings offer the completion of being a part of a whole. Part of a family and (bigger picture) of God. Actively loving others reminds me of my place in creation. So the love I feel for my mom, best friend, future husband and future kids is all made of the same thing. I guess that’s what I mean when I say its from the same place.
That’s exactly right. Love (as a verb) has the same source no matter the object.
i see what you mean and i think i have to correct my explanation a bit. while i can look inside and see that all of my love is in the same storage place, i can see it being doled out at different times. right now, i’ve got crazy love for my family, good friends, and His greatness. but for whatever reason, i see children as being right there next in line …. and a man sometime after that.
may i need to go back to mentoring children so it can find a place to roost.
” I guess both feelings offer the completion of being a part of a whole. Part of a family and (bigger picture) of God. Actively loving others reminds me of my place in creation. So the love I feel for my mom, best friend, future husband and future kids is all made of the same thing. I guess that’s what I mean when I say its from the same place.”
I knew there was something about that girl (besides the pretty smile
Seriously though, my wife will feel the exact same way. I can’t fathom being with a woman that feels any different than this. Selfishness is a single person’s game imo. It makes perfect sense to be (reasonably) selfish while single, but when it comes to marriage and kids it only leads to trifling and irresponsible behavior. Good to know there are random (gorgeous) women out there who share my values/thoughts on love, marriage, and childrearing. 
“I don’t know if I can properly it into words. The thought of surprising my husband with a meal or singing my baby to sleep all come from some place in my core. I can’t really separate two. It’s all an outpouring of whatever is in there. I want to love.”
I think you put that very nicely into words ~JS
+2. Very well put, and my sentiments as well.
“I don’t know if I can properly it into words. The thought of surprising my husband with a meal or singing my baby to sleep all come from some place in my core. I can’t really separate two. It’s all an outpouring of whatever is in there. I want to love. ”
Mmhmm! This is definitely the ideal way of love. I think what screws up the way we love other adults as an adult is that we infuse our adult cynicism into the feeling. Which… doesn’t work out. With children (hell, not even just with our OWN… when I tell you that my nephew is my weakness by DEFAULT… lawd), it’s just so automatic… there is no question. As soon as you see the love in their eyes, the way they love you with ALL their heart, there is no choice but to reciprocate. There is no choice. It’s just a feeling. It’s beautiful, really.
+3 Andi
i think you did a good enough job.
Being a great parent in itself does not necessarily mean that one is going to be a great spouse since the qualities needed for the former are not necessarily those needed to make the latter. Yes, virtues like patience and understanding are universally accepted as necessary in ANY relationship but they are important in different respects in different types of relationships i.e father-daughter/son as opposed to husband-wife/husband. Which is why having these can make one really great at some relationships, but not in others. Even after all that I’d still think it would be much easier to be a father than to be a husband
Which is why having these can make one really great at some relationships, but not in others. Even after all that I’d still think it would be much easier to be a father than to be a husband
i’m not sure which is easier, presupposing that one actually is. i will say that, being a father hasn’t been easy. i love it. it’s my favorite thing about life right now, but some of the things i’ve had to learn to check myself on or personal “ways” about msyelf that i’ve had to let go has been difficult at times. i’ve learned so much about myself since my daughter was born that it scares me at times. i’m happy to grow b/c of it.
i’ve never been a husband so i’m not speaking from that lense obviously, but in my most substantial relationship, i probably could have stood to do more self-reflection. unfortunately, when you’re trying to protect your feelings – even if unwittingly – you tend to go into defense mode as opposed to fix the problem mode. and i think that goes for men and women. its something that i’m able to do easily with my daughter…there’s no way to be ‘cool’ or need to keep up your defenses when you’re otuside chasing bubbles.
maybe more couples need to chase bubbles.
I concur. Chasing bubbles is fun.
Seriously, one of the hardest but best lessons I’ve learned was expressing my vulnerabilities instead of putting up a wall no one could get over.
People are more likely to listen when you say “I’m hurt” than if you cover your hurt and instead express anger.
Anger just lead to more miscommunication and misunderstandings.
Yes! Fun is important! Sometimes we take ourselves too seriously when dealing with the person we are a couple with. Fun is essential to good relationships & to dissolve defenses.
Actually, you should make a instrumental called “chasing bubbles.” It should be a single. A cousin to Chasing Pavements.
I’m a single mother by choice (I’m fostering and about to adopt two of my first cousins) when I never thought I’d have kids. My own or anyone else’s. I still don’t plan on having any of my own for a number of reasons.
The single part is also by choice. I have issues on top of issues with issues of their own and I don’t believe in marriage or monogamy. So I never plan on getting married either.
Of those two things, I think I would be missing more if I had not become a mother than I would by not becoming a wife. Children have added more to my life than any man thus far.
Is that because I won’t/can’t let a man in close enough or long enough to enrich me? Perhaps. Will I regret this when my kids are grown and gone and living lives of their own? Probably. I don’t worry about it much but maybe I should before it gets too late for me do anything about it. Me no know.
I do know I am looking forward to reading the responses of others on this topic.
this just made me smile. that is all. you are corrupting me with a glimpse of your real self, role model.
I’m all about corruption so glimpse deez.
I think a lot of people (men & women) feel this way. I don’t know if it’s the chaging of gender relationships that’s been going on since WWI or the biblical / worldly divide. IMO, I think individuals would rather deal with children than adults because we can pour love into those children without the child ever second guessing our love or questioning how we choose to love them.
It is frustrating to have the noblest of intentions and have the execution and / or the meaning of my words / actions misconstrued; even as a married man this is a struggle.
MAJOR kudos to you, Anti-Cool for bringing these children into your home and giving them the love they couldn’t get elsewhere. Which, I know it’s not something that you feel you need congrats for, I always feel the need to give it since it’s so rare… so extraordinary. You’re a great person, homie!
Aw thanks Cheekie.
*big e-hug*
+1
“I’m fostering and about to adopt two of my first cousins”
Very selfless and loving of you. : )
Thank you. I’m trying very hard to be both.
After waking to fresh comments I’ve decided to add a bit more to this one to keep all my thoughts in one place for once.
Some downthread said choosing kids over marriage is a cop-out, but that is not how I see it. I am not avoiding commitment or responsibility. That would mean thinking that I’m somehow required to be in a romantic relationship and I am not. At all. Just as I am not required to have kids, My own or anyone else’s.
Nor am I taking an easy road. Cause even young kids aren’t easy and they will get a lot worse before they get better. I have seen this and I understand it.
I don’t think you can say one thing (being a parent vs being a partner) is harder than the other. They both have their challenges and their rewards. In my case, having kids has shown me what real love means and it pushes me to deal with the good and the bad instead of saying fck it and moving on when it gets too hard.
Cause like the honey badger, kids don’t care and they do not give a fck about about your problems. They want and they need and they demand that you think about someone other than yourself. This has been good for me and maybe it will make me good for someone else. In the end, my kids have given me more than I will probably ever give them and I wouldn’t trade that for any man. So if that’s copping out, fine.
@ TAC comments to the comments
“having kids has shown me what real love means and it pushes me to deal with the good and the bad instead of saying fck it and moving on when it gets too hard.”
Love in gerneral does this and is also causes you to burn your fck it card as a grand gesture and token of undying affection.
Cause like the honey badger, kids don’t care and they do not give a fck about about your problems. They want and they need and they demand that you think about someone other than yourself.”
The problem is unlike the honey badger, adults may give a fck about about your problems (if they truly care about you) and we want what we wand we demand that you give it to us (we so needy y’all). Like kids, being told to kick rocks isn’t going to cut it.
I’m quite ready to burn my fck card for a guy. I don’t know if I will ever be ready.
Nor am I ready to believe that an adult will stick around long enough to know they want to stay or that I’m ready to do the same for them. I find bridges much easier to burn than fck it cards.
I told I have issues.
This somewhat resembles the sermon I heard at church Sun. The Pastor spoke of the pursuit of love (in this case the love of God). As humans, we are often comfortable in our situations. We can’t say we desire love and not pursue it. No one has ever said that there will be obstacles in our pursuit but we must remain steadfast.
This indeed is real talk. I’ve had similar conversations with the fellas in my inner circle.
Thing is, I was determined not to be a father before I was someone’s husband. My father scared me shtless when I was a kid in regard to teen pregnancy, but more in a sense that I wasn’t ready for the financial. spiritual, psychological and emotional commitment it takes to be a dad (screw being a father; to my two sons I’m “Dad.”) and that stuck with me-almost to a point where I had to be dragged kicking and screaming down parenthood lane by my wife. We waited five years before we had kids because we wanted to enjoy just being by ourselves for a bit, but once her clock started ticking it was a wrap….
…but I’m gettting off track.
I have to say that I was the exact opposite, fam. I envisioned myself being married one day but my dad got in my head so effectively that I was really scared to be a dad myself. Plus my dad and my mom can’t stand each other and I started thinking “what if my wife and I totally started to despise each other and there were kids involved. (like my sister and I) I didn’t want to put a child through that.
Then there was just that fact that I liked my freedom and I knew that kids meant the end ot that. Hell, I remember my wife telling me her water had broken early on a Saturday morning and thinking “damn; I’m not ready!” (Then I found out that nobody’s ever totally “ready” to be a parent.)
So 15 married years and 2 hardheaded boys later I have to say I’m glad I did it this way. I know way too many good dads who for whatever reason aren’t with their children’s mother. They make it work, but it’s tough. Hell, it’s tough on us and we actually get along!
I couldn’t imagine trying to do this without her and if you asked my wife she’d say the same.
Just my $3.57 on the matter…
That was real talk brotha. If you begin to combine our respective lists, communication challenges, and the biological clock the result is more people taking conception into their own hands.
I love your response, it encapsulates the truth between fatherhood and spousal relationships. So often people relish the concept of having a child that they can teach but what happens when the children get older and inevitably rebel. When they don’t look at you as the ideal person and you become the enemy (the lovely teen years). What then? Imagine the kind of strain that puts on your marriage or your loosely tied relationship with the children’s mother. There are so many components and I feel like the ideals of being a father that are extolled in many of the comments refer to the children in their younger ages, way before shit gets real!
that was some very real talk.
“So 15 married years and 2 hardheaded boys later I have to say I’m glad I did it this way. I know way too many good dads who for whatever reason aren’t with their children’s mother. They make it work, but it’s tough. Hell, it’s tough on us and we actually get along! ”
my daughter’s mother and i make it work but i’d be lying if i said it wasnt tough. and i’d be lying if i didnt say that i feel guilty about the fact that my daughter won’t have the opportunity to grow up in a household with her mother and father. all i can do is do the best i can and keep working on me so that my daughter sees a good man to go along with a good father.
P,
There’s virtually no difference than the concern’s you have about you daughter being raised by two singular parents than married couples feel about the amount of time we spend outside of the home and away from our kids.
As I “make it do what it do”, I often wonder / feel guilty about being on the road or having hours that don’t always allow for me to attend certain events. How many funny events and comedic respones have I missed? Am I a stranger in my own house?
P, I don’t know you personally, but you seem like a good and genuine dude. Your daughter will most definitely see that and (hopefully) select a dude who shares a lot of the same qualities as her daddy. Keep doing what you doing fam…
I struggle with what you are saying. I believe you Panama, yet at the same time, I can’t believe it. How it is possible for you to be a good communicator with your daughter who you love, but not with another woman who you love.
Part of my disbelief comes from yes.. Daddy Issues. Mind you I know that there are men who are effective communicators (my ex, my best friend) but those that aren’t..how is it that you can ‘pick and choose’ who you want to communicate with?
My dad got his feelings hurt by my mother (I don’t know how she hurt his feelings..but I presume that was his reasoning behind cheating) and by me when I didn’t forgive and forget. He is petty, petulant, and cruel. He lies, cheats and holds grudges like no tomorrow. Not only with women that he has been involved with..but his own flesh and blood. Daddy’s little girl. His one and only..flesh and blood, apple of his eye. He lied to her face and kept on going.
So I ask you this, Panama, or any other guy who has children and feels the same way about what was written in this post. I presume your daughter is young. I can also assume because she has young she has yet to hurt you like ‘women’ do. And just because she is your child, that does not mean she won’t hurt you. (Maybe one day she will get mad over something and yell- I hate you..I wish you weren’t my father or some nonsense that teen girls do when they are mad) How do you know that you won’t shut down on her like you do other women?
What can you say? I love my daughter and that would never happen? I can and it does happen all the time. Sometimes parents shut down on their kids, not because of what the kids do..but because of what their ex’s did. Can you really bank on parental love.. or do you think it might be worth it to try to overcome these issues? Even if you never turn on your daughter..she is going to see how you behave towards other women.
*I am sorry if this sounds too accusatory or too personal. But it is very personal. A lot of women are damaged by the behaviors of men in their lives. Vice versa. I think we all need to consider how we behave towards one another because we are all setting an example for a young child- whether we realize it or not.
I also apologize for the typos. I got emotional ..
To answer the question everyone is answering..
I don’t want to be a single parent. If I had a choice, I would rather be a part of a two parent household. If things don’t turn out how I would like, I would make it my priority to try to resolve any issues with I may have with communication, honesty, openness, and learning to forgive..so that my child an grow up to be as whole as this crazy world will allow.
My kids (my daughters especially) will have (and do have) the same issues.
This… “He is petty, petulant, and cruel. He lies, cheats and holds grudges like no tomorrow….” is right on target for my ex and more. I worry about my children and their non-relationship with their father. Basically, they only have me to rely and trust in. They don’t trust their dad because of all that he has done to me. How can a child trust one parent when that parent does things to the other parent they know just ain’t right? It’s a sad situation, no doubt.
And the kids “I hate you”… LOL Love it. So true. My response has been “Good! That means I’m doing my job!”
A friend of mine said if his child ever said that to him he would just die. Of course, I’ve been a parent longer than him and just laughed. Kids don’t mean it. They are just venting and we’re the adults, and have to realize that they are feeling helpless (or unnecessarily controlled) at that point. Usually, it’s over something really silly.
+1 on the kids issue. The hellish parts of life is why my son and I are tight. The act of parenting when everything in his world fell into chaos showed me the reality of parenting and I embrace that. I should write a book because people have no idea how far this little boy has come to be the happy and well adjusted child he is now. Because of our experiences, I’m only interested in men who are happy, strong, fearless, has survived a life hardship himself and is a person with good character because that’s who I am and what I see in my child, and even who my friends are. People who meet us are impressed with my child. He is brilliant. So it takes the same to be in my life as a friend, boyfriend, hang out buddy etcetera.
i feel you. i’m a woman & clearly not panama, but i felt like responding…
so 1st i really feel you…that a lot of men…just really cannot accept having their feelings hurt by a woman. even though it is bound to happen in any relationship. they may be able to take a couple shots to the ego. they may be willing to compromise, listen, be supportive…but once they actually get their feelings hurt…feel genuinely hurt…they get real bitter.
as if they never hurt us…but…whatever.
but back to the other part…i think lifelong partnership & good parenting both involve unconditional love. you may not be the best communicator, but when you truly are committed, you do the best you can. for some people, that commitment to a child is automatic to them. they watch their children grow from fetuses to little people, the trust issues aren’t there b/c they’ve created & known this person for his/her entire life.
w/an adult partner, it’s harder for some people to have that wholehearted trust, or give them the benefit of the doubt…and lack of trust is very powerful inhibitor of good communication.
Cosign +1
good questions. just to be clear, for myself, i never pick and choose who i want to communicate with in this context. people make life hard. period. we’re the sum total of our experiences.
with that being said, i’m not afraid of being hurt by women. while it is women that i date, none of my communication issues are about the women doing them. i mean they are in the sense that they are the ones i’m having issues with…but its not isolated to the women i deal with. communicating feelings is difficult and in my household, i can honeslty say that i dont ever remmeber dealing with feelings.
i remember going to therapy a long time ago (yeah, i decided to give that a go just to see what it was like) and the therapist asking me to tell me how i felt…you know that standard questiona bout whatever we were talking about and i kept answering with my mind. she kept stopping me like…no…dont’ tell me what you think, tell me how you feel. i couldnt do it to save my life. that stuck wtih me for a long time b/c i couldnt find the words to express my feelings for sh*t.
that causes communication issues b/c 1) i’m a dude…so my automatic goto in a relationship is conflict avoidance if i can help it and 2) when i do get in my feelings, not only can i not express them, i never even thought about doing so to deal with them. its that whole powderkeg thing. got feeligns inside that i dont know i have.
now, in regards to kids…kids disappoint their parents and hurt their parents feelings. that’s just going to happen. i’m completely understanding of how things work and expect it and won’t let it stifle my ability to be a parent. i’m not built like that.
and to be extremely honest…i think in some of what i wrote i overstated how i deal with things. not to make a point necessarily but i just didnt go back and re-read this for accuracy.
but be clear, i dont treat women negatively or have some f*cked up view of women. i realize that this stuff is my issue. it just so happens to manifest itself in romantic relationships. i doubt that any of my exes would ever tell you that i’m a bad person or that i ever did them “wrong” per se. the biggest issue would constantly be my lack of ability to “open up”. which is interesting b/c i’m always SO open upfront until something goes completely haywire…and that’s with anybody. i’m a gemini and unfortunatley i seem to have that extreme personality thing going on there. i’ll trust you comlpetely until youscrew me over and i can’t understand why…then i close all the way up. i hate that about myself at times. i really do b/c i think that’s what’s happened in many of my relationships.nobody likes being misunderstood…not that its an excuse…
Did your exes not make you feel comfortable enough to open up? No guy likes to open up, at all! But I’ve noticed that if you give them time and make them understand that it’s ok and that it’ll fix things, that they’ll start doing so little by little.
“Did your exes not make you feel comfortable enough to open up?”
I think it’s more that he was open beforehand and something happened later that made him close up. If you deal with PJ in any capacity you’ll see that he’s a sharer. Like, he shares EVERYthing. Do with that what you will. LOL But, if you don’t do right by him… his two-finger curse is total coldness.
I can tell that just from vsb. it’s kind of confusing, like are you SURE you have a problem with being open? because that was a pretty open post, and any one in the world could read it.
this is a different forum. and i’m open until i get shut down. for some reason, i tend to clam up after i get shut down for no reason. i may be more sensitive than i like to think i am at times. but i’m like that across the board. thing is i have an extremely tough skin until i let you in. and if i do i’ll let you into my life. so when i let you in and then you sh*t all up and thru my house, then you go dead on me.
Thanks for answering! I really appreciate you opening up about this.
However here is my problem..
You stated in terms of parenting:
” Now, in regards to kids…kids disappoint their parents and hurt their parents feelings. that’s just going to happen. i’m completely understanding of how things work and expect it and won’t let it stifle my ability to be a parent. i’m not built like that. ”
Then in the next paragraph when it comes to women:
” i’ll trust you comlpetely until youscrew me over and i can’t understand why…then i close all the way up. ”
It’s like a total 180. You said you aren’t built to disown your daughter..yet you are apparently built (as a Gemini) to shut down on everyone else.
What if your daughter was the female whom after raising her all your life, opened your heart up to, LOVED like no other ..turned around and screwed you over. Maybe something crazy like she became a drug addict, stole all your money, hired some people be beat you.. or even something small like decided to love a new step-daddy more than you. How do you know you won’t shut down on her? How can you just take for granted that your love for her will overcome all obstacles, when you won’t let your love for your spouse overcome all obstacles? Your daughter is human, just like all the women you have come across and couldn’t work it out with.
It can’t be the ‘flesh and blood thing’. As I stated before (in comments below or elsewhere) People disown family all the time. People disown their children, children disown parents. It’s not just about LOVE or Family. People make a decision who they treat others. They decide whether they are going to forgive ..or if they are going to work at it. It’s definitely a choice…and to me it sounds like you are making the choice to love your daughter and be a good father.. rather than do the same and be a good husband.
I think men with character do examine that if it’s brought to their awareness. I agree with you that it’s so important for a father to never give up on his daughter. That’s where unconditional love influences that choice of “ok this is hard/painful but Im never giving up on my child. Parenting is actively choosing not to give up on one’s child when things change in ways that are no longer kosher.
Tonya plz get out of my head! I was thinking the same thoughts. While I get PJ’s point, his words are a bit conflicting. In my mind, relationships are relationships; however, if you can effectively express your feelings to your child, what stops you from expressing love to a woman? Not judging, very curious? If the act of opening one’s self to hurt exists as both a parent and a lover, what is the hurdle that stops you from expressing love to a SO? As Tonya says, either can hurt/betray you.
look…its not that i cant express my feelings to a spouse/gf. i can. and i do actually. i can be very expressive. in all my relationships there has come a point where that’s changed b/c of some impetus. not even saying it was there fault or mine. who knows. i honestly don’t.
but ill say the same as i said to her, i dont even understand how you two can draw a direct parallel to a SO and a kid. at the end of the day, if i have to choose between my SO an dmy kid, my kid is winning 10/10. period. now if im married, again thats different as well…and ive yet to be married but right now…ain’t no way i’m viewing a 1-year relationship with a woman to my LIFELONG-relationship with my daughter.
relationships are not just relationships.
I know this is late, but agree 110%. And, why a man would be with a woman that didn’t understand this is beyond me. I’m the same way with my kids and I expect a man to be that way with his kids. In fact a good woman would encourage that kind of loyalty to family because in the end that will benefit her too. His loyalty to her would be that much deeper. Tell me I’m wrong. I know I’m not, am I? If I had to choose between a man that I was with and my kids that’s a no contest from the git go. So, I feel you on this and can totally relate.
i don’t disown family though. and believe you me there are plenty of people who’ve done things worth disowning. but they’re mine. thru and thru. that love was built on a foundation i can’t do anything about. but you’re looking at the transgressions in one singular manner.
there is nothing my child can do that is ever going to make me give up on my child. it’s my child. i can’t see it. i can’t understand that. it doesn’t compute. and i’m sure her mother would feel the same way. your issue is that you’re making daughter=regulra woman and i’m not. my daughter is my blood. she’s mine. i’ve been there since day one…i’m riding this daddy thing out. while yes it is a decision to be there without equivocation, its also one that i never thought twice about making.
now…in regards to relationships with grown women that i enter into, its a totally different ballgame. i’m not sure why you view them the same, but they’re just not. any woman that i date also decides to enter into something with me. its a two way deal. my daugher doesn’t get that choice. i’m her daddy. period. i take that very seriously. she may disappoint me at some point but that’s okay. i disappointed m parents. but theyre my parents i expect them to always be there b/c they showed me they would. why would i treat that parental/child bond any different. again, does not compute.
another issue i take with what youre saying is that okay, im with somebody (mind you i’ve never been a husband so maybe that’s the issue here too), and if its determined that we’re not compatible (which has largely been the case) then it is what it is. sure i can decide to stick it out forever and be unhappy but why would i do that? why would any woman want me to do that? why would she keep herself in that position? its not all a one-way street. like the assumption here is that i just bail on sh*t or am the sole issue in all of my relationships. and while i clearly contributed, i’m loyal to a fault. i stay until staying is harder than leaving. my relationships have all probably lasted longer than they should.
at the end of the day, my point though seemingly lost is that i do realize i have some issues that need to be worked out. agreed. right now. i’m not in a relationship. i have a daughter though and that’s a relationship that i can’t afford to lose OR be comprised of flightyness, miscommunicaitons, etc. the long term impact of her parents living apart is already at issue so why would i worry about ever contemplating disowning or anything my own kid. its my daughter.
i guess i just view the two differently. my kid is my kid. always. and that’s a responsibility i accept. and being a parent is just that, being a parent to my kid.its a one way deal.
i’m working on being better to be a spouse. but grownups get in the way of love all the time. its a two way street. i cant be responsible for what other folks do and thats my pont i need to handle my own issues. and if it should come to me being able to be a husband at some point or wanting to be int hat position hopefully i’ll be ready.
right now, i have no choice but to be a father to my child and i love it.
Thanks again for responding to my questions. I do appreciate you sharing.
I guess I find the relationship btwn father – daughter and the relationship btwn husband (the father) – spouse (maybe mother..or just another woman in daughter’s life) to be similar for three reasons. (1) because daughters internalize how her father treats the women in his life (this is a fact), (2) because of my personal experience with my father and his women, (3) because of examples of fathers (parents) who have horrible relationships with their children.
Because of your experience with your family and your parents, it’s hard for you to understand how familial relationships can break down just as easily as relationships between two people who aren’t family. Family means more to you than anything. I get that. You are the ideal parent. You are committed to your daughter above all else. I applaud that. I really do.
However, (as Jhanez posted below), some parents find it easy to have that devotion to their children when they are young, but as the kids grow older and develop their own personalities and see their parents as human beings (not the superheroes they grew up with) the parent- child dynamic changes. If a parent is not equipped to deal with other adults..it is very difficult to deal with their own child who has grown into an adult..and you now have to be accountable to.
So, for me, I question anyone who says that they can dismiss someone they are in a relationship with easily, but declare they are devoted to family for life because family ties aren’t as strong for everyone. There are people who dismiss their family all the time and think nothing of it.
As for your question as to why you should feel more or as devoted to a year long relationship as you do to the lifetime relationship that comes with being a parent.. You are right- you shouldn’t. I also don’t believe that people should stay in a unhappy marriage ‘because of the children’. Children see that you are unhappy and miserable and that shouldn’t be their example of a marriage.
No relationship is ever perfect. Some relationships don’t last. All you can do is do your best and act as honorably as possible, because kids are watching. And they DO internalize it. They ask themselves: “If my daddy can treat a woman this way…does that mean he will treat me this way?” I had that question..and it came true. My father treated the (adult) woman that his daughter is, the same way as he treated all the other women in his life. When I was young I was the apple of his eye, I was his princess. I don’t think he ever imagined that it would change. He wasn’t prepared for the woman that I would become. A woman with some of the same personality traits, and looks like, the woman he used to be married to and couldn’t get along with.
It sounds like things may be different for you. You are seeing the consequences of relationships affecting your cousins/nephews. So you know that what adults do can totally affect their children. You are forwarned so therefore forearmed. That’s great.
I just hope that people who read this thread, try not to take relationships they form with significant others so lightly. Every relationship you have is interwined. One affects the other in ways you can’t imagine. You shouldn’t just want to be a good parent..you should strive to be a good person.
…and again Panama, I know you don’t treat relationships lightly or anything. I was speaking in general terms.
Thanks for this post. I’m in the midst of it now. And as the adult, only child and daughter of my father who seemingly was the best daddy ever I can tell you that as an adult our relationship is changing quite quickly b/c I see how he is in dealing with other women esp. my mom and he doesn’t seem to get why it all pisses me off.
As was stated, it was all good while I was growing up and I didn’t know to look for (consideration, respect, care, etc). But now that I do, I can’t understand why he thought/ thinks the pain he has caused to the women around me doesn’t or shouldn’t affect me.
She is my mother first and the only one I have. AND I am a woman just as she is. Thus, I really can understand and relate way more to her than anyone else esp. him, a male.
When my dad looked me dead in the face and told me that he didn’t give a crap about my mother..that was when he lost me. I was 25 years old.
He thought that since I understood that my mother wasn’t perfect and that she had a part to play in the destruction of their marriage, that I could understand why he behaves the way he does towards her.
He assumed that we were ‘partners in crime’. I don’t think he realized how much damage the caused in our relationship (the father – daughter one) in his callous disregard for my mother.
My mother is hella crazy..but I love her. You can’t disrespect her and expect me respect you. I have forgiven my father for a lot of things..however our relationship was never the same after that.
and i’m sorry to hear that. he made a huge mistake in judgement. and maybe he knows maybe he doesn’t.
but i also wouldn’t do that. even though we’re not together, my daughter’s mother and i make a concerted effort to enforce the respect for daddy/mommy rules. like it or not, we’re a team forever.
@ Tonya, it seems like you are reflecting the things you went through into P’s post which comes off as a tad much. I totally get what he is saying–it is far easier to give to your own kid unconditional love than it is to give to another person. Children, love with their all. They don’t understand how not to. So when you see a little you, looking up at you in sheer admiration of the person that you are, well that’s just a beautiful thing (i dont have kids but i do have a niece and i see this every time one of her parents enters into a room).
“What if your daughter was the female whom after raising her all your life, opened your heart up to, LOVED like no other ..turned around and screwed you over.” This sounds like something on an incest tip (not to be an a$$). I don’t understand translating the relationship you have with your daughter (or son) to being screwed over. Comparing your relationship with your child to anyone else (momma, daddy, grandparents, friends, etc) shouldn’t be possible…at all. No parent should ever say “my child screwed me over.” This is something you say of a friend or a lover…not your kid.
I think what P is trying to say is that family is family. You will fight for the ones you love no matter what. Also, a child in a way you could say molds itself to you. It has your genes was, raised by you, so there’s a good chance you’re gonna get a long. This is not the case with dating I feel like, cause the person is already grown and fully developed. (or so we hope) So connecting with someone new is more work and also you don’t have that unconditional love from the get-go like you have with a child.
I have an older half brother who’s done some pretty malicious things to me yet I’m always hoping he’s going to change. I could never hate him or disown him. He’s my blood. But if it were a guy I was dating doing this to me he’d be gone in .5 seconds. And I wouldn’t even CONSIDER taking him back.
Maybe I’m young and naive but that’s how I see it.
*I am sorry if this sounds too accusatory or too personal. But it is very personal. A lot of women are damaged by the behaviors of men in their lives. Vice versa. I think we all need to consider how we behave towards one another because we are all setting an example for a young child- whether we realize it or not.
I had to get up from my desk and wipe the tears from my eyes. This is so true @Tonya {{{HUGS}}}
Hugs back!!
I feel for you Tonya.
“A lot of women are damaged by the behaviors of men in their lives. Vice versa. I think we all need to consider how we behave towards one another because we are all setting an example for a young child- whether we realize it or not.” Truer words were never spoken. I am amazed by the things a man does to a woman that he would think despicable if done to his daughter or mother. In the same way, mothers who accept less than they should from the men in their lives are teaching their sons about what is an acceptable way to treat women and teaching their daughters that they are not good enough for anything more. I think these unspoken lessons hit home much more than the spoken ones do.
Too true..
I really want to stress the Vice Versa in this, though. The damage that women do to men can be just as harmful to the family unit. We often blame men for the damage done to daughters. However, often time those men were hurt by a woman…and that hurt affects how they treat other women and how they behave towards their own children.
It’s a horrible cycle that we need to break. We can not let the actions of one affect how we treat others. We need to decide not to let that one experience shape our whole lives. Forgiveness is so powerful, not only for the people you forgive but you and for everyone around you.
My parents explained to me when I was old enough that the best way for them to be good parents to me was to be good spouses to each other. When my siblings and I were young, our parents poured all their energy in resources into us, but almost at the expense of their relationship. Fortunately they had enough wisdom and strength of will to realize that they needed to put each other before their kids in order to best provide for those kids. The result being that my sisters and I grew up with a healthy understanding of relationships, an appreciation for the differences between men and women, and a good deal of self-love.
Point is that often the best way to be a good parent is to be a great spouse or partner first. Our kids pick up more on the model we set for them then the lessons we try to teach them.
yeah. i agree with you. despite what i wrote…
+ 1
I always thought people should consider whether we would actually MARRY the person we have a kid with. I know things happen but thats neither here nor there. I’m a god parent and I think producing offspring is a lifetime commitment the same way taking vows used to be. I can’t say I would rather be a mother than a wife because then that would make me a “baby mama” or “knocked up” and thats not my steez.
I’m with you here too. I have a homeboy who had 4 kids with a woman before he even thought of marrying her citing “compatibility issues.”
I was like “GTFOHWTBS!!l So your compatible enough with her to stay knocking her up but not compatible enough to marry her??”
I have a good friend who always brings this up about her partner very other week.
” What, am I good enough for a mortage, having your two children. but not enough for a ring?”
I’ve told her yes, you should have got with that equation from the get go. Some people just want the family,but not the signed paperwork. I actually agree with his choice, cause my friends ideas about marriage and weddings are not two different things. Through their realtionship she is learning the REAL issues of a commited realtionship, he too before people get on my back.
“I was like “GTFOHWTBS!!l So your compatible enough with her to stay knocking her up but not compatible enough to marry her??””
LOL, it’s interesting because since this happens SO often, it makes me wonder just how much compatibility it actually takes to knock someone up consistently. Doesn’t seem like much. Or definitely not enough for him (or them) to truly commit.
“…just how much compatibility it actually takes to knock someone up consistently.”
Um, like none… two horny people in the same place at the same time with working opposite anatomies.
IJS.
I was like “GTFOHWTBS!!l So your compatible enough with her to stay knocking her up but not compatible enough to marry her??”
my father used to say that all the time. and its completely fair.
i feel like i’ve gotten personal enough today. lol. so i wont bring anybody else into my discussions. but ya know…i agree. believe it or not.
And I think we’ll see more of this as we continue to avoid marriage until very late… people will choose to have babies with someone they don’t intend to make their partner… there are people who I’d have children with but would not marry, and vice versa… not because they aren’t marriage potential, but because we simply don’t fit that way…
The couple above didn’t exactly choose it, because the chick wants to be married to him, but still…
Well in a way she consented by continuing to have kids with him with no marriage.
I never thought that I would be single & childless at my age. I just KNEW that I’d get married and have babies IN THAT ORDER. The man I’m dating is divorced & has 2 amazing kids & it wasn’t until I read the title of today’s blog that I thought that this could be his thinking…no matter how much he says he wants to be married. Thanks for giving me more to stress over and shyt.
One should never let anything PJack says stress them out.
that’s SO true. lol. plus…the truth is, i really waver on that way of thinking b/c at teh end of the day, for my life and the things i value, its not even that realistic. its just part of my dealing with issues that i clearly have.
I’ve been a husband and I’m a father. And I believe that being a good partner (faithful,attentive,loving,affectionate..etc.) really helps you be a better father or mother. We apparently realized that too late in my situation but nevertheless… If the relationship is full of love, the kids benefit, full of foolishness and said foolishness is felt by all. Once people realize the same unconditional love they pour into their kids should be poured into their partner things could be alot better.
The problem comes into the picture when a partner abuses or takes advantage of that unconditional love, causing the partner to shut down or throw up walls. And instead of ever wanting to feel that hurt again, we get cold and focus all of our energy in the people who we fell will never hurt us intentionally. Our children. Easy to understand, hard to fix.
Ditto Tx10inch!!! *giggles*
CHOOSING to love a child rather than a spouse is a copout. The issues that destroy our romantic relationships will eventually show up in other relationships..business, platonic etc. Your child will only be the exception for so long. An azzhole is an azzhole unless he or she puts in the constant practice of not being one to anyone.
That word choice is a stickler to me.
I’m not a parent. However, I hear people say that they have no choice but to love their children and treat them well. I don’t think that is the case, I think it is natural to love your child..but you make a choice on how you treat them. You make a choice in communicating with them, in nurturing them and giving them the best of you.
Some parents do some horrible things to their children. The claim to love them, but still treat them horribly. Other parents don’t know the meaning of the word “love” nor know how to express it.
That same choice can be made when it comes to loving another human being..your spouse or significant other. I believe in every relationship you make a decision to work at it and do anything you can to nourish it.
Tonya,
I can really agree with this. Most of my life I felt like my father hated me. My parents were never married but were in a relationship. When I was born, all hell broke loose mainly because my mom wanted my dad to pay child support. My dad would tell me that my mom was using him as a meal ticket and talk bad about her. When my dad would get angry at me (for things like asking him for something) he would yell so loud that it was more like a roar. One time I kind of flinched and he said, “Have I ever hit you?” And the answer was no but I was already psychologically damaged. It seeemed like I was just a financial burden on him although I was mostly raised by my mother.
I say all this to say that it really is better to be married and in a committed relationship but if for some reason that doesn’t happen DON’T argue with your spouse over petty stuff in front of the kids. I am now a 21 year old college student who is very outgoing but has never been in a serious relationship because I don’t really fully trust man. In the back of my head I feel as if my father couldn’t love me so how can anyone else.
my daughter’s mother and i follow a very respectful demeaner rule. we wont argue in front of our daughter and you will never catch me saying a single negative thing about her mother ANYWHERE in her vicinity. not that i even have much negative to say about her anyway. we didnt work out. my fault. her fault.
if there’s one thing that my daughter will know its that her parents had nothing but the utmost of respect for one another…at the very least.
kudos, because real talk, that shyt matters.
my father had some low, low, low years… but my mama and dad said “regardless, that’s your daddy” and their whole approach to parenting- inclusion and mutual respect- made a world of difference to me, then and now. your daughter will be a better a woman for the mutual respect she witnesses.
Panama,
That is really great! I think that is what have made the difference in my life. Still to this day, I get super nervous if my parent are around each other. AND they are both married to other people. Anyways, shout out to the good dads out there. And shout out to all the women/men that are working to more past…well…the past.
“In the back of my head I feel as if my father couldn’t love me so how can anyone else.”
They can because you ARE a loveable person and the problem was with your father and not you. ..This was what I had to remind myself everyday until I believed it. You will too..
<>
That was for Amarie..
“CHOOSING to love a child rather than a spouse is a copout. The issues that destroy our romantic relationships will eventually show up in other relationships..business, platonic etc. Your child will only be the exception for so long. An azzhole is an azzhole unless he or she puts in the constant practice of not being one to anyone.”
Word… and a co-sign to Tx10inch.
The problems will start when the child begins to form their adult identity, and then they are no longer a child but a man or a woman. And if you have issues with the opposite gender they will show up then. Not a question of if its a question of when.
For those who say they would rather be a parent than a spouse I think aren’t taking into consideration that the parenting job gets significantly harder as kids become teenagers and young adults.
This is also the time when kids are most likely neglected or abandoned by parents because they are no longer easy.
I can personally testify to the number of parents of my daughters peers who great when all problems could be solved with a juice box and the latest dvd or video game and chucked the duces because their kids all of a sudden became unmanageable
Because teens need MORE communication, discipline, guidance and supervision and when the adults have a real hard time owning how their behavior has influenced the situation the final out come is usually separation… except instead of a spouse it is your kids.
Because ALL relationships require the same skill set and work… or they fail ~JS
I agree. And even though its a copout, I totally understand it. Trust is a big deal. In the world of dating, and relationships, I may even run into folks with trust issues. While I can’t change their trust issues I can be a trustworthy person 100% of the time.
Marriage isn’t for the scared and the people who can’t trust. . . but neither is any grown people relationship…because actions are very valuable. Its a loss for one person if the other person in the relationship doesn’t trust and has walls up.
“Marriage isn’t for the scared and the people who can’t trust. . . but neither is any grown people relationship…because actions are very valuable. Its a loss for one person if the other person in the relationship doesn’t trust and has walls up.”
The truth is the same can be said of parenting.
Little kids are unconditional… big kids come with conditions, and trust issues and walls just like any other person.
Unless a parent intends to keep their child emotionally stunted at 10 the relationship will change because adolescence and young adulthood is all about change.
Parenthood isn’t about entitlement… its about meeting and exceeding expectations.
More so than with any other relationship that you will ever have ~JS
This entire thread is so real to me, but THIS:
“Little kids are unconditional… big kids come with conditions, and trust issues and walls just like any other person.” Reallly summed up my emotions on this post.
It was many, many years ago, but I remember right to the smallest detail, the moment I realized that my dad was not the superhero I thought he was. He was a great father, never did any thing to hurt me, but the day I realized how awful a husband he was, our relationship changed. It was like I had been blind my whole life and suddenly gained sight. How could he claim to love me when he put my mother through so much? Messed me up.
A parent’s relationship with a child is one sided for the few years when that child is young, and you can mistakenly think that this is an easier relationship to maintain. But once the child gets to a certain age, the parent-child relationship becomes complicated. It’s exactly like the stages of a romantic relationship. The same things you do that cause hangups in your romantic relationships will cause hangups in your relationship with your child, the only thing you can do is try to change your self.
+1
“How could he claim to love me when he put my mother through so much?”
I think you can love a person dysfunctionally… you can love a person and not know how to be a good mate, a good parent, a good person.
Further, children can put their parents through hell and back, doesn’t mean they don’t love their parents, just means they have problems, hopefully only temporarily.
OMG ..this is like therapy right here!!! I feel like I owe ya’ll money. Does Medicare cover this?
You!!!! I don’t have either money or Medicare…self pay. Can I work out a payment plan?
+1
+1
Upthread I said that when adults have kids sans partner / relationship, the adult never has to worry about how their love they give being questioned while that child is young. When that child becomes a teen / adult, all bets are off.
So, based on this thread, me choosing to be single parent and not wanting to be in a committed adult relationship any time soon is a cop-out and will ultimately ruin my children.
Good to know.
TAC PUT THE KNIVES DOWN!!! *just playing*
Your post shows that you have taken considerable time to look inward and evaluate who you are and what you are about; more of us need to do the same. The bigger question here is do people take the time to perform the self reflection and come to this conclusion or do they come to this conclusion out of frustration in dealing with their present state?
Another question down the road would be how do you teach / what you teach the kids about relationships since what we see and what we’re taught impact our ability to relate to one another.
+1
In raising a son it is important to me that I have healthy friendships with men and it is important that he sees the men in his life treat me with respect –that includes family, friends and partner when I’m in a relationship again. My marriage taught the value of respect. I will not cut myself off from dating and the potential for a relationship. It’s important to me that he sees healthy male-female relationships in all their forms rather than be sheltered from it and clueless on how men should interact with and treat women.
I have healthy friendships with men and try to keep positive males around them. I’m just not looking for a relationship and don’t feel I should just so they can have a father figure in their life.
Not necessarily you. But I think the principle is sound. I have no dout you would raise well-adjusted kids, but your the exception, not the rule. A lot of people would the TAC Biography and think they could do it to, but the reality is most people arent built to be successful single parents.
Call me crazy, but I feel like marrying your cousins’ dad might give them more issues, not less.
Not necessarily ruin, but your children will “see” you for who and what you are. It was weird seeing the type of woman my mom is, as opposed to the type of mother she is. I don’t love her any less, but how I looked at her changed. And it definitely changed our relationship woman-to-woman.
Hm…I have boys and I do wonder what they will make of my relationship choices when they are old enough to understand what they say about me and how they might have been affected them.
@Anti-Cool…really?? Considering that it sounds like you’re trying to give these kids a BETTER life, maybe this thread doesn’t completely apply to you.
Definitely agree with this. This is why children should preferably follow marriage. Because the children are a product of a loving functional marriage. Its hard for us to accept the concept that we should love a person not related to us (a spouse) as much (if not more) than our children, kin, etc., but that’s the point of a union. You give up the me for us. Our generation quite frankly is too selfish and that’s why I think a lot of marriages fail.
i guess if i had to choose, i’d rather be a mother than a wife. while i’d want both and be devastated to have one without the other, to me having kids is way more important and something i am not willing to compromise on in my life. i’d hope that the father of my kids would and i put aside whatever issues and at least be friendly and civil around the children, because no matter what they’d need an example of a good man around them even if that man turned out not to be for me.
Hmm. From what you’ve posted, I think you have commitment issues and you’re afraid to marry, you just don’t realize it. it’s a different type of issue, basically. Not the obvious straight forward one, cuz if it were obvious then you would obviously have fixed it by now.
–
I used to say I could see myself being a mother but never see myself being a wife. The wife part was the struggle for me, but I am realizing that the more I get myself ready for marriage the more comfortable with the idea I become. it doesn’t seem so foreign anymore. It used to be, “Oh i don’t know any men I’d wanna marry for real for real,” but I am meeting/seeing more men who are really good marriage material, and I can see myself doing wifely things. So, that’s less foreign now. The rest is actually just working on myself and my own faults.
You’re gonna keep having failed relationships until you actually CHANGE your behavior somewhere down the line then try a new relationship/situationship out. Me? I stopped participating in the nonsense, because i realized my participating was just enabling the bullsh*t to keep happening.
cosign.
i really like this comment because marriage IS a foreign concept to me. so my thing is- am i getting myself ready for marriage? should i be? do i want it? what behavior do i need to change if i don’t think i want to be someone’s wife?
maybe the issue is that i don’t see “wife” as the same thing as “partner/equal/lover/friend” and i start to recoil at the whole concept. i have close friends who wanted to get married and they did. and now they are divorced or on the verge of it and we aren’t even out of our 20s yet. then i look at my parents, couples in my extended family, my friends’ parents etc etc, and i can’t say i want to sign up for those relationships either. that version of love and commitment looks miserable as all get out.
so for now, i try to stay visiting jeebus and going down my check list trying to be the best Bumilla i can be. i know that sounds really trite to some folks but what the hale else am i supposed to do?
I hear you. makes sense. i was that way for a bit as well. now i am making more concerted effort to “prepare for marriage” which for me, means working on my health (so i can birth kids, be alive long enough to enjoy my husband till we are old as hell) and working to getting myself debt free (so i can afford kids and don’t bring down my husbands credit rating lol). single people don’t necessarily make decisions like this…or you know…other marriage/family-related planning decisions. those are just my examples.
Hmm. From what you’ve posted, I think you have commitment issues and you’re afraid to marry, you just don’t realize it. it’s a different type of issue, basically. Not the obvious straight forward one, cuz if it were obvious then you would obviously have fixed it by now.
you know…based on what i wrote…i agree with you. doesnt happen often Liz. relish it.
LOLOL.
I disagree with Liz here. (If this is just a joke, let me preface this by saying I didn’t catch it so my mistake).
I saw a lot of long, flowing emotion from others in the form of word. I didn’t want to be that person today. Too close to what I care about. I have a niece that my sister and her baby daddy have completely failed. I’m there to give those hugs. I’m there to protect her future.
To me, there is a great amount of misunderstanding in preferring to be a great parent rather than a great spouse. It is not simply easier. Though, I’m only here to say that I rarely praise men because I could nearly careless about ‘nary one of em. This parenting is the one thing that I’ll respect more than anything.
So, if this was simply a joke between friends – my bad. But if this is a sincere thought – perhaps, this tendency is an issue in personal exchanges, in a personal life. I think it matters but who am I?
I’d much rather be a wife than a mother. I want to have a man who is always there with a commitment before God. But y’all can have the kids. I’ll even babysit! Just know that if you’re late picking them up I’m filling them with chocolate cupcakes and Red Bull
But y’all can have the kids. I’ll even babysit! Just know that if you’re late picking them up I’m filling them with chocolate cupcakes and Red Bull.
Yes!
Can come over to your house? Can I have ice cream instead of red bull? I just don’t think red bull and cupcakes go together.
panama
Some of the loneliest times I ever had in my life were while I was IN a relationship.
this will be the first sentence of my memoir.
Growing up in a single parent family has tainted my view of being a traditional husband/father/white picket fence maintainer…seems like a lot to juggle on top of having a job and other interest…
im also selfish with my time and money…not a great formula for a proper Huxtable family unit.
our generation hasnt had the best role models.
My older brother has been married for 12 years and has two daughters(and a older son from a previous relationship) so I know what commitment looks like…i guess im just emotionally lazy…
whatever.
hmmmm. neither/both? I’m not sure if I’m cut out for wifehood or parenthood. If we’re living in an ideal world though, there would be a long term healthy relationship (perhaps a marriage) accompanied with any child. I’m not really trying to do that alone. I would hope wifehood would precede parenthood. If I can be selfless enough to live with another adult, I think the kid thing would be a natural progression. In the end, I know nothing of these worlds to say which will be easier or better. I feel you on the difficulty of getting back up after a love TKO. So, in that sense, my guess is that loving your kid can be removed from the relationship. Again, this is all speculation.
I am a husband and a father and this post describes me. I enjoy being a father much more than being a husband.
no judgement but that is a little sad/frightening.
I never ever thought I would be a wife or a mother. It was never a thought of mine when I was younger. Of course, like I’ve said before, I turned buck wild from 17-23 and those were the most fun, exciting, crazy, stupid times of my life. Seriously. I never had the desire like some girls do to think about planning a wedding, design a wedding dress, think about the details. Just didn’t. I was hell bent on being a playgirl.
And, then I met him. When he came along it was like the most intense whirlwind romance ever. From about a week after we met we were inseparable. We were so into each other that it probably should have been a crime.
No one in my family could believe that I was getting married. Are you serious? Her? She’s getting married?! WTF? Yeah, I had a wild rep. Oh, and we moved FAST. We knew each other 3mos before we married.
When I got pregnant with our first child my family again was like…. are you serious? She’s pregnant?! Her??? Although I had always been good with kids at family reunions and baby sitting, everyone knew I never really planned to have kids. Yet, now I have 3 of them and love them dearly.
So, things do change.
Nope, the marriage didn’t last, but that’s okay. Sometimes people come into our lives for reasons we don’t know or understand, but everyone has something to offer. Maybe he was sent just to bring me pretty babies.
Oh, and I can definitely relate to being alone in a relationship. That’s no bueno. I’ve learned a lot about what I do and do not want in a relationship, but I definitely learned what I need.
Everything you say, I am going to co-sign. Because to me, you are darn near indelible.
Respect.
Awww Sagey Bear… now don’t just agree with me for the heck of it. I like a little disagreement sometimes. Keeps the spice in life alive.
I had to pour another drink and log back on after thinking about this for a while. Some guys look forward more to being a father than a husband because it’s a whole lot easier to be a half-ass father than it is to be a half-ass husband. A man can be broke, but if he has enough for bus fare downtown (kids ride free) he can show his kids a great time. No wife wants a broke husband for long. A guy could blow all the Christmas money and a kid will still be happy with a $10 Walgreens last-minute present. Financial discussions are one of the hardest conversations in a marriage. A guy can spend one weekend a month with his kids and the kids will enjoy whatever they are given. A wife is going to say something if she is being ignored.
Children will always eventually figure out that Dad was a deadbeat, but the first 5-10 years can be great. Little kids don’t complain or judge or make suggestions. Things go south real fast when a wife sees that time or money are short.
Like.
Your post is so on point. I can not rememer thea reasons why my mum was working two jobs and doing college, but I remember all the good times spent in parks/museums and bus rides.
“Some guys look forward more to being a father than a husband because it’s a whole lot easier to be a half-ass father than it is to be a half-ass husband.”
@Amos…
You make some great points but its not just the broke dads, everyone talks about the guy who contributes little or nothing, but the one that can be just as bad is the one who pays but doesn’t fully participate.
Cause its much easier to show up with an xbox and a fistful of games than it is to be the one that has to leave work early to pick up a sick kid and take them to the doctor.
Its easier to take the kids on vacay to Disney and opt out of being the one who has to make sure homework is done, veggies are eaten and teeth are brushed.
It’s easier to hand over a check than actually having to buy the groceries and the clothes and the school supplies or be the one that runs to the library to pay the late fees.
Graduations are a lot more satisfying than school events and teacher conferences.
Real talk there are a lot of folks out there managing careers and stay at home parent duties at the same time.
And while the money is a vital necessity, it doesn’t make up for all the other mundane, non cool/fun stuff that goes along with parenting.
Especially… as I said up thread… as they get older. ~JS
*stands up at work and appluads while co-workers wonder what the….*
say that.
ABSOLUTELY! Well said. I certainly wish my ex could get over ‘us’ and focus on the kids and what they need(ed). But, that is just wishful thinking. (sigh)
I approve this comment!
very very true. i wonder how many dads (and for the record, i’m not one of them…i’m hell bent on being a great father until i’m dead…its almost scary how much i concern myself with this) dont realize that once the kids really are able to process things that those inadequacies come full circle.
i’m preparing myself for those times when i have to answer my child’s questions about this type of stuff. i know its coming. and i’m going to be honest about all of it when the time calls for it. i have a nephew whos dealt with that with his father and it pains me greatly to see how screwed up his father is to him at this stage of his life. i’v ehad to step in as a surrogate father at times (same with another newphew of mine actually..and my godson…i have a lot of “kids”) b/c of it so i know what damage can be done. and bc i myself have a daughter i realize how much MORE damage is potential.
When it the time comes where my boys realize that I’m not Superman and begin to see my flaws for what they are, I will tell them I’ve giving you / loved you the best that way I knew how. I will challenge you to do better / be better than me. My best is always evolving and I will continue giving you my best just as your best should continue to evolve.
From what you described, it doesn’t sound like dad is a deadbeat because he’s in the children’s lives, even if he was low on funds at the time. Little kids value their daddy time.
Little kids do complain, judge or make suggestions though. Especially if they witness the other parent doing the same. I’m just saying as a little kid can look you in the eye and remind you that you promised something you’d do for or with them.
Wow.
I’m going to try and keep this as brief as possible. That whole post is a conversation I’ve been having with myself for YEARS.
I have accepted some time ago that more than likely I’ll be someone’s step mother. No problemo. In fact, though I would prefer someone without children, a lot of times a man’s interaction with his kid(s) ends up drawing me in further or even keeping me there when I should have been long gone. However, because I see all of his “goodness” displayed with his kid(s) I maintain hope that some of that will transfer to our relationship. Trickery. And actually it’s not only about being a good father. I’ve been involved with men who were great PEOPLE in general – good sons, brothers, friends, etc. but have been sh!tty boyfriends. It hasn’t been up until very recently (as in about a year ago) that I realized that these traits don’t always translate into them being good mates. But for YEARS my feminine mind could not grasp this concept. Actually I just had another revelation while I’m typing this. In my failed relationships I began to at least subconsciously believe that I HAD to be the problem because a man who was such a great father, son, and friend could certainly not be to blame for this mess that is now our relationship.
As a result of all the heartache…I had about given up on the whole marriage deal. Not completely…but it’s one of those if it happens it happens, and if it doesn’t then that’s cool too. But what’s not cool is me not being a mommy. I’ve wanted to be a mother since I can remember. So a few months ago I created life plan #8972 in which I’ve decided in 2 years (once my debt is close to being cleared up) I will begin the adoption process. (SN: I was always inspired by Angelina Jolie when she adopted her first son, Maddox and she used to travel the world with him.) So yeah…I’m envisioning my children and I spending summers in Tanzania or rowing a boat in the French Reverie…and just raising super smart, well rounded, great human beings.
I just know how much I love my mother and I want that same relationship. Unfortunately, the cliché is super real: “men/women come and go” (married or not) but your children are forever. Sue me for wanting a piece of “forever” in whatever package it comes.
And btw my homegirls with kids stay boo’d up. I’ve heard that men like women with children because it shows they are not selfish and nurturing.
I guess all that unlimited head, home cooked meals, and being supportive of your 30 yr old @ss still tryna get a rap deal don’t count.So perhaps once I adopt my kid then we can get the ball rollin with a boo. Kinda like what Angelina did with Brad. Yeah I’m definitely going to make the leap from Jen to Angie. #scheminLast thing…have yall heard of the Progressive Love Movement with Kenya Stevens??? I came up on it a few nights ago and it really had my mind going. Though I have my own opinions about her situation in particular…it definitely made me revisit the idea that monogamy is not natural or truly desired (esp by men) in a very real way. Not that any of it truly applies to me, I am very monogamous, but I’m just sayin. Interesting stuff.
Sorry for the dissertation. It’s been awhile.
Great post.
good luck with endeavor.
never heard of the movement you speak of. i’ll check it out.
I’ve had an open and a polyamorous relationship and I liked both of them. Monogamy is definitely not the be all, end all. I can pretty much roll with any kind of relationship as long as there’s mutual respect and a lot of communication.
Stevens’ stuff doesn’t excite me, but probably because I already read about it- in less shiny packaging- years ago.
Good luck with the adoption! Consider foster care- it makes adoption so much easier, not to mention much, much less expensive, if not free.
I wont go the adoption route, but I’ll definitely be settling on how to get a baby here in the next couple years, too.
Oddly enough, the same skill set you need to exist in a healthy relationship with a partner is necessary for a kid. And yet, it’s so much different. Maybe it’s the unconditional love.
If unconditional love does not apply to a marriage relationship, what kind of love does? Do you believe in such a thing as “conditional love?” You do? Superb.
I personally don’t think love has conditions or it’s not complete.
What can I offer you to prevent you from sharing what you just wrote with others? The Hope Diamond? The Crown Jewels? Tube socks?
There must be something you that want. Unless you are one of those pesky “incorruptible” people.
It is imperative that people remain unaware that love is sacrifice!
“What can I offer you to prevent you from sharing what you just wrote with others? The Hope Diamond? The Crown Jewels? Tube socks?”
Gimme a bowl of rice, some red Kool-aid and some ice cream on the side and you got a friend in me. Randy Newman steez.
what cheekie said. i kind of view that as an all or nothing thing.
unfortunatley, people get in the way of unconditional love all the time.
“unfortunatley, people get in the way of unconditional love all the time.”
Poignant, pimpin’.
+2 too true
Anyone that rather have kids than getting married is a fool. Children are a much bigger responsibility than people think and just in case you think having a child will solve all your previous or current relationship issues, I am here to tell you that you’re completely wrong. I mean let’s take a moment and think about this. You want to have a child with someone who maybe you dated in the past or is someone that just wants to be “friends with benefits,” or could be someone you’re dating now, whatever the situation may be, having a child with this person means that you have to deal with them FOREVER and not just until the child turns 18. I mean FOREVER. This person could be unstable as hell and you would still have to deal with them because you’re dumb a$%^ decided to have a child with them. At least with marriage ( if you don’t have any children) you could just get a divorce. Of course divorces can be very ugly but once it’s over ( if you don’t have children together) it is over. You could move on with your life and be as hoodratish as you want to be. But when you have kids with someone ( with the exception of dead beat fathers and mothers who majorly suck), you can’t just dip out on your child or not deal with the child’s mother or father.Why can’t you, you ask? Because your dumb a@# thought having a child was easier than getting married to someone. When you have a child you have to be just as committed, vulnerable, responsible, stressed out and miserable, as you would be married. Like your spouse, your child will love you, hate you, disappoint you, cost you money, and stress you out. I feel like having a child might be worse than getting married. I know I sound very pessimistic about having children and don’t get me wrong I know there are a lot of different circumstances where a person may have a child without being married, but who willing wants to volunteer for that? I can’t wait for the day to have babies, but I need to have a healthy relationship and stability first. I don’t want my child to be the next Nino Brown because I thought being a single mother was cool….that s#$% is hard and I admire all the single parents out there that do it everyday… I couldn’t do it.
I see I’m a fool as well. Stellar.
Not at all. I honestly don’t think these things apply to you. What you’re doing is commendable. As someone who is child free, I can’t imagine being compelled to take in another’s children. You seem to be doing a great job, I wish you the best of luck.
Thank you.
why are you taking this stuff personal? just asking. i wrote the post and i’m not even taking sh*t personal. lol
I’m not really. I’m just being a smartass.
I feel kinda weird sharing, even among my VSB fam, so I have to balance out all the sincerity somehow.
+1 Fostering and adopting as a single parent doesn’t make you a fool. Even then when people say they can’t do single parenting they’re being honest about themselves (and are talking procreation usually) That is all.
@Panama,
Bro, I’m proud of you. For whatever it is worth coming from me.
As I read along I prayed that you would tie growing through your difficulties in relationships into ideas you express to your daughter.
This candid look into the life of Mr. P Jackson was a delightful dalliance.
Thank you, kind sir.
lol no problem. and trust and believe…my goal in life is to become a better person for my daughter…and hopefully that translates into a better man for some woman should i get that opportunity.
“Some of the loneliest times were when I was in a relationship”
This was my last relationship. Luckily I’ve moved on to a man who I’m really happy with, but I completely relate to this post. I have always known that I would be a mom (love kids), but being a wife not so much. My dad was the best father you could ask for, but lacked as a husband (his focus was his kids and providing for us). Being a wife involves so much sacrifice and I hope I do get married, but I’m kinda doubtful. Whereas having kids is no question and I look forward to it.
“In fact, some of the loneliest times I ever had in my life were while I was IN a relationship.”
Back in the day, did you trust her enough to tell her that when it was happening?
I’m newly divorced and I noticed I don’t feel cold to love and relationships – I still want to love. I did it for double digit years within a marriage so I know I’m a loving person — my ability to love isn’t broken.
I think to want marriage, one has to want to actively husband or actively wife (verb) rather than just be one. I know that’s stating the obvious but marriage is a verb, not a noun. And its ok to not want to do the husbanding or wifing that it involves.
I LOVE being a parent. Being a good mother is who I will always be because I’m willing to do it. For me to be in a relationship, we both have to be willing and not afraid to love hard, have mad respect for each other and be honest with each other.
I think every dating situation/relationship should have an exit clause (stated outloud by both parties) that pretty much says if you are unhappy tell me so we can fix it together, and if you are still unhappy, please exit the relationship as its not worth staying unhappy and lonely in a relationship.
Panama, I do think that if a woman you’re in a relationship with assumes the worse about your intentions and you did not mean any malice, then its a relationship fail on her part *too*. Some people are quick to hurt than to ask for clarification or say exactly what they want from the other person.
I wouldn’t want to be married either if I felt that this would happen in a marriage.
I do not want to marry. I think like a man so my feelings could change if I suddenly felt ready.
I love being a mother and having a legacy. But I have to teach my son how to have healthy relationships with the opposite sex. Interestingly enough, he came home from kindergarten telling me he got married, but that she married him, he didn’t marry her.
It takes trust — trust in oneself — to be in any type of relationship. It may be easier to trust ourselves as parents, versus as relationship partners or spouses. Children don’t judge you. It is easy to make them happy. While they are growing you get to see the benefit of your investment in them.
I already had the marriage in my 20s. I already know from experience that I can trust myself. I know what I bring to friendships, relationships, sex. I also know what I bring to myself and my life. I will always be a mother. I don’t currently want to be a wife but I haven’t lost faith in marriage. I haven’t lost faith in singledom either. Its never about the relationship, but about the people in it and the energy they both bring to it. Since its just me, I better be on point about the energy I bring in my view of things, and my life. I like being responsible and accountable to myself and my child. I like being the master of my fate, the captain of my soul in the trajectory of my life. No day but today, carpe diem and all that.
i never told that one particular case how lonely i felt in that relationship. now while we were together. i told her later. and she pretty much said she felt the same way. it ended when it needed to.
i think you’re right about having the “if you’re not happy say it so we can fix it” clause. and largely, when i say that i lacked the abilty to communicate my feelings, it was mostly in that arena. the inability to acknowledge that something was wrong hoping that it would go away on its own even though i knew it never would.
got to learn to do better.
I have a question. You mentioned 3 failed relationships in this post and in previous posts you’ve mentioned 2 exes who asked “do you want to hit me?” and one ex who cheated. So either you have more exes or you need to figure out why you’re dating crazy women. Cause if the latter is the problem then counseling/self reflection can help. And the thing is you’re gonna have to figure this out eventually anyways cause it’s gonna effect your daughter when she gets older. Right now she’s too young to understand, but when she gets older your relationships are gonna be her examples.
I’m too young to really be thinking about marriage and kids, but I come from a two-parent household so that’s my ideal and that’s what I strive for. I want to get married and then have kids. But I also have to remind myself that my parents are pretty much the exception. There are way more people getting divorced than there are people staying married.
I think I just made this whole thing about me… Oops. Anyways, great post P
lol good job.
i’m a grown man. i’ve been in plenty of relationships at this point. some of those ridiculous relationships happened WAAAAAAAAAY long time ago. like late teens and early 20s.
i do need to stop dealing with crazy women though. that is true.
i am aware that my daughter will view what i do as much as i what so im working on myself in that regard on purpose. but she will also see me treat her mother with the utmost respect. she sees her mother and i laugh together. so even though we’re not together, she will see parents who get along and who in some way, like eachother as people enough to make sure that she’s okay. work in progress. but i’ll keep working.
funny that as i read this, GIlbert Sullivan comes on.
anyway mr. j, i kind of get where you’re coming from. as the sands of time pass, the more i feel that i will be a father (via adoption) than i will be a husband, then a father. and i intensely desire the latter, because it quite seems ironic that someone that believes in faith, in hope, in love, especially in the opposite gender, would be..alone. i guess being a father (by choice) would be a selfish reason (to have a legacy), but at the same time, it would afford some young kid, the opportunity to feel that faith, that hope, that love, and spread it to their spheres of influence. and by what you wrote, it seems you are passing that down to your daughter, so i salute you sir. *salute*
“I have neither commitment issues or fear of being married. In fact, I look forward to doing both. But maybe it’s our newfangled generation’s entitlement issues or hope for perfection and ease.”
that may be part of it…maybe we want to find someone that already fits, without understanding a lot of times, in life, the square peg will go into the role hole (i’m sure there’s a #pause that needs to be put in there). Life isn’t supposed to be ‘easy’, and no greater example of this is marriage, as we have it now.
“funny that as i read this, GIlbert Sullivan comes on.”
Three Little Maids from School is my sh*t… carry on ~JS
Give me the ring, keep your babies.
I have plans on being both a husband and a daddy. Both are a challenge that I want to gladly accept. Honesty both things make me nervous because if something of that magnitude doesn’t then you’re probably in the wrong place. I do plan on being a husband first though. My robotic-a** likes the thought of going to doctors appointments, checking in, and saying “The Youngs are here to see doctor whoever.” That just sounds kind of awesome.
it’s some hard a$$ work brotha….but it’s worth it.
Words of truth from Love Jones:
“Falling in love is easy, someone tell me how to stay in love”
-Isiah Washington
love changes, love grows, love never stays the same….
be prepared to be likewise
that’s all I’ve got
it does sound awesome.
I get more satisfaction out of people (teachers, my boys’ classmates, doctors) knowing Mr. Sigma’s ’bout his boys. When they see the family out and about, they know that this is not simply an “insert dad here” moment.
Very insightful, PJ.
But, I do think you have commitment issues. Selfishness, laziness, feelings of entitlement? All commitment issues. You aren’t willing to give all of yourself, commit all of yourself, to a relationship, something you have chosen to do as a parent. You’re a whole parent, but a half partner. You have to be a whole partner, as well. And she has to be a whole partner, also, putting herself all in to building the relationship. Don’t be scared, P. You obviously have the capacity to love, and love unconditionally. Just go all in, don’t hold back. Easier said than done, I know. So, get some therapy to help you build that bridge and get over it. Don’t mean to sound preachy or judgey (lol. I like rhyming).
I hope I’m alone in this, but I feel like I’m not. Women? Fellas? Does anybody else struggle with this dichotomy? Why?
When I think about it, I always think about being a wife and a mother, whether those children are biologically mine or not. Wife first, mother second, but they both are a part of the same result. The parent/child relationship exists because of the wife/husband relationship. Honestly, I can’t see having one without the other. Especially when it comes to having children. I know many women are doing great jobs being single moms, but the thought of being a single mother gives me the heebeegeebees. Being a wife doesn’t scare me nearly as much, but I do worry about being with a man who isn’t giving his all when I’m giving my all. Stiil, I want the marriage… and I want the parenthood. In that order…
thanks for your insight. and its okay to be preachy. i put it out there…i expected to get some of that back. but thank you anyway for it.
For a husband and wive to live together is idly to be a constant source of disgust one with the other. – Paraphrasing German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer there so its not exact…the sentiment is still there. If you get a chance I’d add The World As Will and Representation to the amazon queue. In this, famously pessimistic, misogynist, never married Schopenhauer is weirdly spot on in regarding nature and procreation and love. To shorten things up and to apply it to your post: The attraction and sexual attraction between partners is what he calls “the will-to-life”; the will exists in all creatures and functions to overcome death by continuing the cycle of self-reproduction. Case-in-point…even the ugliest of duck-billed-platypi, honey badgers, and lil Waynes’ have this will-to-life (whether we like it or not) to continue the species – the ways we human beings attach emotional value and our own well being to the rituals of romance and love are therefore only a sophisticated ritual of connivances to get us to spawn. It’s like the roofie-in-a-drink effect. He concludes that sexual love brings misery to the individual because its aim is not the pleasure or the good of the individual but the continuation of the species – Love (marriage or relationships) and Happiness are two different and distinct projects. So when ppl are baffled by the end of relationships, and are contemplating murdering the co-parent of their off-spring look at it like this: You were only meant to be together to produce (hopefully) children that carry the best features of you and your partner. Love was never the point to begin with.
very very interesting point of view. i’ll have to mull that over some more.
First and foremost this is one of the realest posts I’ve not only read from you, but damn near ever. The husband/father conundrum, i.e. how to navigate being one without failing at the other is a legit concern that I think a lot of us have.
I don’t think I need to tell anyone it’s easier for a guy to be Mr. Right Now than Mr. Right; if you didn’t know that, I’d like to inform you that the sky is blue too. But, I’ve had similar conversations with men regardless of the household structure they were raised in. Having a father [figure] at home while you were growing up doesn’t interfere with this feeling existing or these conversations taking place when you’re grown. And I do think that this is only a topic that you begin to think about when you begin to really grow up.
So why would a man ever consider being a father and not a husband? The answers are simple to understand but not easy to hear. For starters, I know I like kids ’cause they’re so happy-go-lucky and just enjoy life. On the other hand, it seems kids LOVE me. It’s really kinda weird to me how complete randoms will just want to play around with me. So when I’ve thought about being a dad, it’s always something I feel I’ll be good at. I’m sure being the oldest child has something to do with that.
Conversely, marriage isn’t ever as easy. I think you touched on it when you pondered our newfound “entitlements” everyone feels they should have. And it’s funny, because so many people are quick to say “Not Me”, but the proof is in the pudding. I’m not saying you have to apologize for your “requirements”, but you need to be aware of what your dating/relationship resume and your references are saying about you. Everyone has certain expectations of what they feel relationships/marriage should be, but for some reason it’s easier to talk about nothing rather than substance… even when those substantial conversations are with the person you’re considering spending your life with.
Also, your kid will always be your kid. They’re not yours because of a ceremony, or a ring, or a piece of paper… they exist because of you. Forever. There’s nothing that can ever change that. With the state that marriage is in, forever is only about 5.2 years before the divorce attorney showdown begins. It’s a very real fear for both men and women. Either the okey-doke, the too-late-realization that you’re willing to work harder than the person you’re working with, or the epiphany that the square peg you found that understood you and fit so well, was really nothing more than a well-dressed triangle.
Well, damn…
For starters, I know I like kids ’cause they’re so happy-go-lucky and just enjoy life.
I think this is a big difference between being a parent and a partner. When they’re your own kids they seem much less happy-go-lucky because kids can really be kind of melodramatic- they “hate” you because you don’t buy them the kind of breakfast cereal they want and stuff like that, BUT it’s just life and you move on, you don’t have to like dwell on it and analyze it and have it be analyzed.
This. So much truth.
thanks. and yes, its something a lot of us think about nowadays if the convos with my boys are any indication.
the interesting thing is that it seems like none of us are against marriage…its just that so many of us, men and women, seem to be jaded on relationships that it becomes an actual concern.
hell, its even worse for me. i already have a kid so i’m not even in a rush to meet, get married, and have kids with anybody. my kid is the greatest funnest kid on the planet.
i could write about this on another day but then comes the whole concern with building another family and worrying about how my child fits in psychologically.
being grown comes with a lot of damn thinking.
I always said i’d rather be a husband than a baby daddy, just the idea of giving a chick half my checks like she wrote half my raps (c) Hova, or her having more kids by different guys and them all having their respective “daddy weekends”, it just never appealed to me. Aside im one of the few males that wants a wedding, proms and graduations have come and gone, a wedding is one of my last big stunt off moments.
kids are pretty expensive even if you live with them
P, better watch you’re step. You start’n to sound like a cat who could do this marriage thing. All that self examination, that introspection ish, you got it bad, chief.
P is bout to be like George Costanza on the boardwalk
LMAO!!!
lol. dont worry. i wont be introspective long.
i just threw NWA into the iTunes playlist.
Personally, I never saw being a father without being a husband as an option.
This is how I feel. I want husband, then children in that order. There won’t be any children without a husband.
“Some of the loneliest times I ever had in my life were while I was IN a relationship.”
I was just talking to some friends the other day.. This was the story in my last relationship.. And this woman at church that I’d never spoken to before walked up to me, grabbed my face and told me I was lonely…
*commence Holy Ghost tears..*
I don’t have this argument with myself. I have taken care of a number of children.. I’m good with them, I bond with them. Children I don’t know pass me in the street and start to smile (unlike the men I pass int he street) At one point, it was 3 children at the same time. After that, I just KNEW that I couldn’t be a mother without having a husband. I know these things happen sometimes, but all it took was ONE trip to the grocery store with all 3 children (to get ONE jar of Jelly) and I knew I needed a partner.
I want to be a mother because I want to instill in my child all the things my mother didn’t instill in me. I want the opportunity to get it right. But as a product of a single parent household, I KNOW I’m gonna need some help. I’m gonna need someone to fill in the gaps where I’m weak. That’s just the way it is..
I just turned 33 so I know what is biologically happening, lol. But I have to assume God knows what he’s doing. I can’t have a baby before I’m married. My mother already told me she won’t be around to help, I think she’s lying, but I can’t take that chance..
Great post Panama..
curious… do you have an age in mind where you say, ok, man or not, it’s now or never?
Nope.. I don’t have that age.. I HAVE thought about adopting if I’m past that age.. After I have one, I want to adopt anyway.. But no, I haven’t thought about that as an option at all…
“I just turned 33 so I know what is biologically happening, lol. But I have to assume God knows what he’s doing. I can’t have a baby before I’m married”
Right there with you, chick.
Keep the faith.
Good post. I can appreciate your internal struggle. It seems easier to sacrifice yourself for your (potential in my case) kids. I had an old head sit me down one time and give me a perspective on marriage I had never thought about before. He asked me what I thought the reason you got married was? I regurgitated the “Because you love her” boilerplate often recited. He said “Nope, thats not it.” I had no response after that. He told me that was the problem with our generation. We get caught up in this romance novel sh*t (not his words, my interpretation) without understanding what marriage is about and what it takes to make it work. He told me that marriage isnt about love, but rather commitment to the relationship and the union. He explained it like this. Oftentimes men and women in a relationship get married, have kids and then lose themselves in their children at the cost of the relationship with their spouse. Then when the kids grow up, leave home, start their own family, the husband and wife are left to re-learn each other. Then he said something that didnt quite sit right with me at the time. He said that you have to love your husband or wife more than your children….What!?…That really bothered me and I think he could tell. His point was that you raise your children to eventually grow up and start their own family. That’s the goal. More importantly he added, you do your children a disservice when they dont see their parents exhibiting love or affection because they dont learn what a postive relationship looks like for their adult years.
As time has gone on, I’ve started to see the truth in that conversation. Its stayed with me too.
Just my borrowed $.02.
that’s a good 2 cents you threw into the ring. and a lot for most of us to think about.
its always the old heads telling us the important sh*t
I agree with him. And I believe that’s why my parents have been married for 40 years and going….that and my father loves my mother more.
(I believe in a marriage it’s best for him to love her more than she loves him. Note that I didn’t say she shouldn’t love him, but that he should love her more. )
It actually makes more sense. Men (for whatever reason) are harder sells on marrriage. Accordingly, it makes sense that we would probably need to be more in love (at least initially) to enter into marriage because it seems to be against our natural predilection. This is a delicate dance nowadays though because women today aren’t built like previous generations. So men have to balance this whole “loving more” phenomenon because women nowadays have been programmed to think like men. It’s an interesting dichotomy I think.
To answer the question posed, I’m childless and unmarried. That said, (stepping up onto rainbow/sunshine/butterfly painted soapbox and releasing arms full of glitter) isn’t the answer that there’s enough love for urrybody, we just need to stop being lazy?
RG’s post from the old head comes closest to this idea.
The single most incredible part about being human is that we have the power of choice, the power of love. The most annoying part is that we have to deal with all this crud that makes those choices harder. Not impossible, but hard.
Didn’t read every comment, but did notice a pattern in language where folks talk about how much harder it is to love spouse and offspring equally. How easy the love for offspring comes.
My ultimate hope and vision as a wife and mother would be to love both my husband and offspring unconditionally and receive the same.
And yes, that’s hard as Hades but Imma give it a try.
Wow.
*collects self for a hot second*
This was quite the (for lack of a not so dope word)… poignant. Like, I could feel the confusion throughout this post but at the same time it was so well-written. Maybe it’s because of the confusion… maybe it’s because it was real. What I’m tryin’ to say here (amongst my own confuddlement to write a coherent comment), Papa P, is that I feel this post.
It is quite the conundrum to love your daughter in a way so that she will have the love of a man you feel is fitting for her, but I really don’t think that’s entirely within a father’s control. We say that a father is the first introduction to a man that a daughter receives, and while that’s true… we still have to realize that it’s a different type of love. What’s so amazing (and frustrating) about love is that it’s so many levels of it. It’s SO easy to love your own flesh and blood yet it’s so complicated to love your mate. The love of a child is the purest form yet the love we feel as an adult has so many different aspect to it. I guess it’s pretty fitting. Childhood is like innocence and what is… is. Period. But, when you’re an adult, everything suddenly becomes complicated. Everything that is black or everything that is white is suddenly… gray. Which may be good in some aspects, but when it comes to love… why can’t it just be?
Conundrums, indeed.
I agree. This post is absolutely so well written! It still had Peej’s writing personality throughout, but it was very coherent (non-ADD), and definitely communicated his dilemma. Probably my favorite post with a serious tone.
“Does anybody else struggle with this dichotomy? Why?”
If anything I struggle with the opposite thoughts; I can easily imagine myself as a great wife and partner. Not so much the mother part. I love little babies and chubby baby rolls are my kryptonite. But when I think about the time, energy, and resources it takes to raise a child, I get terrified. Like I can’t even see myself keeping a good attitude.
I’m not sure how or why being a spouse would be any harder than being a parent. At least with another grown person, usually, they can pick up some slack for you. Kids need you for everything. That’s way more pressure than keeping a relationship together IMO.
“Like I can’t even see myself keeping a good attitude.”
I chuckled on this.
See, for me, raising children is lot less terrifying than being married.
I’ve been taking care of children since I can remember, from my sisters to my niece to cousins, and it’s a thing that comes natural to me. Now trying to make a life with a man, not so much.
I get this. I’ve been seeing adults make a life a together, successfully, and without super drama, for all my life, so it seems second nature to me. As does having/raising children.
This post definitiely speaks to what I see going on in my circle and the circles of people in my circle.
Personally, I could NEVER picture myself being a mother before I’m a wife. As a matter of fact, I’ve had nightmares about having children out of wedlock. Is getting married a guarantee that Man is going to be in child’s life? Of course not. Nothing is guaranteed. However, I like to think I’m a good judge of character, I don’t just jump into relationships. As a result of this, if I’ve been courted by a man and have went as far as to say, “I do” in front of God and a bunch of folks, I’ve coined him decent and pretty spectacular. If he’s good enough to be my husband, I’ll take my chances with getting fertilized by him. Just my thinking.
Yeah I understand. I think that is how my kids father and I look at one another. We don’t hate one another but then again there is no love there either. We exist because you happen to have half of my kids gene pool.
Peace, Love and Chocolate,
Tiffany
I felt the exact same way (except about being a mother and wife).
And now I am a single mother.
I was going to say that everybody probably feels that way, there must be some kind of biological reason for why people value being a good parent above almost everything else (being a good parent is pretty important for survival of the species).
But then I read the comments, and apparently this is not how everyone feels at all. So I guess I am going to have an introspective rainy day here.
For some, it’s easier to be a parent because they lack a proven record of fugging it up. Plus, people look at being a good parent as something they have more control over. Relationships, dealing with another adult, whose slate is littered with past fug ups, it much more scary than dealing with a child whose slate you color.
Relationships always teach us more about ourselves than they do the other person.
You live, you learn, and you do better if you are astute enough to catch the lessons and apply the knowledge/wisdom going forward.
And see, moments like these are why I think we kind of lucked out with this VSB partnership thing. Our personalities are similar enough not to butt heads all the time but different enough to occasionally provide completely different perspectives.
i’m bringing this up because I feel the exact opposite way. To me, having kids is like the Steelers winning the Super Bowl this year — it would be cool if it happened, but I wouldn’t exactly lose any sleep if it didn’t. Romantic relationships and the companionship that comes from it are more important to me. My feelings may change, but ever since I’ve been aware that A) I can make children and B) It’s cool hanging out with girls you like if they like you, B) has been the option that intrigued me most.
And see, moments like these are why I think we kind of lucked out with this VSB partnership thing. Our personalities are similar enough not to butt heads all the time but different enough to occasionally provide completely different perspectives.
true indeed.
who run the world? girls? nope. vsb. b*tches.
that’s not a pun btw. lol
“Interesting enough, I have neither commitment issues or fear of being married. In fact, I look forward to doing both. But maybe it’s our newfangled generation’s entitlement issues or hope for perfection and ease. Or maybe I’m just lazy. But how can you be a lazy partner and a great father. Except, that happens all of the time. ”
I once dated a man who was an exceptional father; he was selfless, attentive, nurturing, dedicated, a great communicator, planner, protector, leader, etc… He was a brilliant man and the ideal father, but he was the most difficult, frustrating, selfish, lazy and impossible man that I have ever dated in my entire life. In our romantic relationship he did not show not one of the above characteristics on a regular basis. When problems came up he would casually admit that he was a selfish and lazy lover, which always upset me because I had a front row view of how awesome and loving he was as a father and a son. Seeing the man kill our relationship with his stubborn ways was such an insult because his character as a father and son told me that he could be an amazing bf and one day husband. A French philosopher (Hegel) once said that the truth is found neither in the thesis nor the antithesis, but in an emergent synthesis that reconciles the two. Thay reconciliation is how I view the potential for men like him to be both a good father and a good mate. The truth is, that man had the capacity and characteristics to be both a good father and a good husband but he was weighed down by the hurt of his past which he piled directly on our relationship and our love. He chose not to grow up as a romantic partner but flourished in other areas. But he and men like him are not a hopeless case, we are all a compilation of blended opposites. For him and men alike I believe that once he realizes the unselfish, unconditional love that he shows his child, his mother, and a select few other individuals who “earned” that love is the same kind of love that he must bring into a romantic relationship and marriage…then the conversation of fatherhood and marriage will not be mutually exclusive. He would no longer see himself as a failure in the role of lover because we would recognize that his experience as a father has already given him everything he needs to be a great husband.
Sidenote: IMO: Women also have an important role in this as mothers, sisters, friends, girlfriends, etc. A woman’s love can fortify a man for the rest of his life, there are some women that know how to nurture and love a man towards being a better man, father and husband. Perhaps if we lay down our own selfish ways and stop trying to receive more than we give then we would have fewer brothers, husbands, friends, fathers struggling to love their women properly.
that’s one interesting sidenote that displays a sort of accountability (not full obviously) that i’d never thought of.
at the same time you cant save a brotha who doesnt want to be saved. a lot of us do need to learn how to just let go and be vulnerable.
Yes although I agree with much of what she typed, you can’t love someone into being a better partner/person. That person has to be willingly to do and be that first and foremost themselves, only then can the “help-mate”/woman assist.
Squeaks comment below sums it up.
Posh- “help-mate” I love that you brought that up!
I don’t believe that we can change people on our own, IMO only God can change someone long term. I do believe that we can encourage growth through love and nurturing. Yes, the person must first desire it but to be honest how many people that are striving for healthy relationships do not want to become a better person? I would argue that there aren’t too many people looking to be a good person without wanting to grow.
I noted that women have the ability to do this in the role of a mother, sister, friend not just as a romantic partner. I am a teacher in an Urban area.. I once spent months consistently showing love to one child before I got him to smile (no lie), once that child chose to receive my love and began to anticipate and relish in it he grew tremendously. That child is now a very different person because we (myself and school officials) wrapped him in love for an entire school year. I’ve given advice, shared encouraging words with men (and women) years ago…in fact I would have forgotten the words that I have shared if had not come back to me and tell me that those words have stayed with them and motivated them over the days, months and years. That’s really what I’m talking about…not trying to change but just through love I believe we can become better people. The world just looks different when you go through it wrapped in love!
I agree. Women get burnt out from trying to save everyone.
I say just love genuinely, openly and without conditions. Use positive words, bear with each other through grievances, uplift, encourage, speak the truth in kindness and speak to the king that lies within every man. Women are quite powerful (men are too), I think our society has molded us to compete with each other instead of nurturing and loving one another. The truth is…we (men and women) need one another, we complement each other and we generally have the same ultimate goals.
To be honest, we need men like you to be husbands one day… When the time is right, men like you should be the one’s getting married and having more children.
*Cue Jill Scott’s “The Fact Is.” Lol
I read this post last night. Logged off, slept on it and came back. I agree with Liz, i think most people who deal with this are afraid to marry, because they are afraid to fail.
Marriage is a completely selfless undertaking, and must remain that way in order to succeed. By succeed i mean with both partners happy, well, and prosperous. You have to find a way to lose yourself, without losing yourself. It is the most delicate of balances, because as two people merge their lives into one, they have to always be in consideration of each other’s feelings, tendencies, and even anticipate issues.
That was much easier to type than it is to apply. Thing is, alot of times as men, if we grew up with a father, our father never talked to us about being a husband. We saw it. Whether good or bad, we just saw what he did and formed our own conclusions. We saw him be catered to, we saw how he treated our mothers, we saw him be the head of the house. And we assumed that we would just acquire those skills as we got older. Not the case. Husbands have to be trained by other husbands, as I’ve learned. “Head of the household” is a title that is earned, not one automatically acquired. The position is solely based on the man’s ability and willingness to serve his families needs.
I tell brothers all the time, if you feel like you aren’t ready to get married, don’t. You will regret your decision, and do unneccessary damage to your wife. Work on yourself, mature, and then think about marriage.
“You have to find a way to lose yourself, without losing yourself. It is the most delicate of balances…”
Perfect description of what I think marriage is about.
“Husbands have to be trained by other husbands, as I’ve learned. “Head of the household” is a title that is earned, not one automatically acquired. The position is solely based on the man’s ability and willingness to serve his families needs.”
This comment is priceless information for anyone (especially men) who is thinking of getting married. The responsibility of being a husband (or wife) takes quite a bit of mental/emotional preparation and there is a bit of a science to it. Most of us go into marriage with our own ideas, and when it doesn’t measure up we want to discredit the constitution of marriage; when in reality we never understood what we were doing in the first place.
@CNotes
“Most of us go into marriage with our own ideas, and when it doesn’t measure up we want to discredit the constitution of marriage; when in reality we never understood what we were doing in the first place.”
Wow…exactly what I was thinking. I’m still trying to decide if it is because we don’t train the ones coming up behind us in what marriage is, and what it looks like.We don’t often think past the wedding and plans. I know people who are divorced but still paying off the credit card debt from their wedding. That’s a problem for me. Yet, i can’t judge because no one tells you that no matter how ready you think you are, you don’t know what expect. Also, people change, you change, your spouse changes, and the person you knew before will not be the same person five years from now. Life happens, people evolve, grow, and sometimes regress. It is constantly getting to know that new person. Of course again, much easier to write, than put into practice.
“Also, people change, you change, your spouse changes, and the person you knew before will not be the same person five years from now. Life happens, people evolve, grow, and sometimes regress.”
Exactly.
But I also think we should revisit the idea of men as automatic head of households. Because we have fallen into equating single motherhood as our only example of female heads of household, we pretty much ignore any possible positivity in female-headed unions/matriarchal societies.
I once had a conversation with some girlfriends about having a matriarchal household- marriage intact. You would have thought that I had invited demons to dinner, lmao. Granted I was talking to women who realized at the end of the conversation that they were much more grounded in western, christian belief than they thought they were, but still… these were progressive women who could otherwise acknowledge that they were capable of “running shyt” and often do, but who found it much more acceptable to portray themselves as part of a couple where the man had 51% of the say as compared to their 49%. The thought that, in a disagreement, the default would be to fall to the woman to make the final decision or that the woman would be the main provider was reprehensible to them… even though in ALL cases they were, in fact, the primary bread winner.
I’m not with the idea that because she makes more money financially he can’t be co-leader or leader of the household. Many women are natural leaders but why would a grown man be okay with not having leadership in his own house and his own marriage??
“Why would a grown man be okay with not having leadership in his own house and his own marriage?”
*Why would a grown woman?*
I believe in co-leadership… but even when it’s usually 50/50 at some point there is always a disagreement where someone will have to make the final decision because you two (or more) simply don’t agree and you have to decided something and move on. The other person usually just has to trust the one who makes the final decision in the house has everyone’s best interest at heart.
*decide
@Chunk
First i’ll be forthcoming and say that my beliefs are ground in Christian theology as well. So getting that out the way. However, i don’t believe in 51/49% of a relationship. I believe in communication, compromise, and ultimately if my wife has a better plan, or better idea, we can execute it.
I must say though, that i believe the man’s right place is to be responsible for the home and family, that doesn’t mean he has to make more money, or make all the decisions, it simply means he puts others needs before his own, protects, provides(emotionally, spiritually, and financially if necessary). A woman capable of “running things” as you say is great, she can make a great partner. However, I don’t think a woman should have to focus on that, if a man is in his right place, things come together. Who does what, is semantics. What works for your house, works for your house. I don’t understand what the point of a matriarchial society would be if the man is present and capable, but I’m not knocking your belief, or even saying it couldn’t work.
What it sounds like you are describing are women who are accomplished and successful, who may be dating or married to me who feel the need to put them in their place, or suppress their natural assertiveness. I don’t condone that, I say learn how to use a woman’s ability to “run things” to the advantage of everyone. That’s how power couples are formed. That’s how a man works while his wife is in school and then she returns the favor. That’s how both people are able to better themselves and support each other, imo.
I wish there were more guys out there like you.
“First I’ll be forthcoming and say that my beliefs are ground in Christian theology as well.”
Yep, and your whole post makes perfectly good sense… when coming from that particular angle… and will be wonderful for women who subscribe to the same…
But not everyone subscribes to the same magazine.
And my frustration with them was that they were, actually, heads of households (by _your_ definition of what a good male head of household would be) but simply wouldn’t acknowledge it. Why? That’d take all day to answer.
I understand where you’re coming from.
“I’m still trying to decide if it is because we don’t train the ones coming up behind us in what marriage is, and what it looks like”
I think that is a huge part of it. But, the problem is many times our parents don’t tell us the truth about marriage and for some people, their parents may not be the best person to advise them. One can only hope to have access to a person with real wisdom that can be helpful. In my case, my mom and stepdad had a beautiful marriage that looked easy. Learning from watching their marriage sort of handicapped me because I didn’t realize the sacrifices they made for each other until after I experienced marriage. Otherwise, the advice my mom gave was sort of generic. I should have inquired more from other married couples (lesson learned).
“Wow…exactly what I was thinking. I’m still trying to decide if it is because we don’t train the ones coming up behind us in what marriage is, and what it looks like.We don’t often think past the wedding and plans.”
Someone once said that each generation pays for the mistakes of the previous generation(s). I think this is very true along with the point you made. In general our parents and grandparents have not been very open about what it takes to be a wife/husband and how to maintain a healthy marriage. They just assume that we know by looking at grandma/grandpa. What’s crazy is that the couples who do divorce generally have the very same issues as the couples who never divorce they just handle them differently. I believe we are part of a society that looks at our grandparents and think they are the epitome of healthy marriages that last. I’ve heard men say “they don’t make women like my grandma/mom anymore.” When to be honest our grandparents probably went through hell as a married couple..we are just looking at the finished, polished product. We don’t realize the failures and problems they experienced all we know is that they stayed together and loved each other.
IMO, that’s hindered our growth…we don’t realize that we have the same power to work through problems so our relationship problems get “too big.” In Titus it tells the older, wise women to train the younger women and for the older, wise men to train the younger men… We need this
I agree with you. I can only imagine what it would’ve been like to be married during the Civil Rights Era, not knowing if your spouse was even gonna come home that day. I don’t think our parents/grandparents meant to not train us, it is at times about presenting a unified front. Parents don’t always think kids see, or pay attention to what goes on, so the smart ones try to handle issues behind closed doors. Thats how my folks were, so i naively thought they never argued. Then when i got married, i’m like what the hell is goin on. I must’ve picked the wrong chick. Nah, i just didn’t know how to handle situations. A lot of people experience this. Not knowing how to handle conflict, disagreements, whether voicing feelings, and emotions, or diffusing. Good discussion.
meant to say “institution” not constitution. lol
you know. i grew up with my father and he still never talked to me about being a good husband. in fact, i notice i carry a lot of his demeanors at times when dealing in romantic situations and it drives me nuts b/c i know it aint right…but its my default natural reaction to things.
that sh*t drives me bonkers. its hard to go against your natural instincts.
it is bro. Which is why i say husbands really have to be mentored by other good husbands. Because honestly your natural instincts initially are all about self.
Marriage is a completely selfless undertaking, and must remain that way in order to succeed. By succeed i mean with both partners happy, well, and prosperous. You have to find a way to lose yourself, without losing yourself. It is the most delicate of balances, because as two people merge their lives into one, they have to always be in consideration of each other’s feelings, tendencies, and even anticipate issues.
As someone who was married for 12yrs, I can say without a doubt this statement is absolute TRUTH. Good job.
13yrs…man. Congrats. You guys are almost the exception in our generation.
No congrats needed. Notice I said WAS. Sometimes it’s just too late to apply the things you’ve learned in you’re own situation to save your situation. The pain’s too deep for one or the other to let go.
*your own situation
This made me think of “Just to Keep You Satisfied” by the late great Mr.Gaye (RIP).
The position is solely based on the man’s ability and willingness to serve his families needs.
^Yep yep!
“I’d Rather Be A Father Than A Husband”
i thought it was just me. but then again i would rather be a husband than a babydaddy
awww PJay. i like this post.
i’ve always wondered how one can be such a great and doting and communicative parent, and then turn into ice ice baby stone wall when it comes to relationships. i think the difference is being needed. a child needs you to be doting and communicative and open-minded, and deal with the unexpected in a way that won’t damage them in the future, and we are all mindful of this and act accordingly.
what we don’t all realize is that a relationship needs those same attentions. we let animosity build up and shut down instead of keeping an open mind and treating it like as a continuous work in progress and learning experience, like raising a child and being a parent is.
good post. P to the Jay!
you’re absolutely right…which is why i’m trying to actively work on myself.
being grown sucks.
it definitely does.
but i have faith in you P to the Jay. lol.
and i know that you’re actually a super sweet guy when you’re being super sweet. so… yeah. some woman will harness that one day. lol
I talk about this a lot. That when I look into the future, I see me and my babies (I only have 1 but I want 1 more). The man part, well husband part, is iffy. Idk. I love my daughter to death, she makes me so happy. Like even with the occasional frustrations, they don’t last long. But the ups and downs of a relationship are so much more exhausting. I guess it’s kinda like what was mentioned about the love of a child being more unconditional and stable than that of a partnership. Although raising a child itself has it’s difficulties, the actual relationship and love is just so much easier to maintain. Does that mean I don’t WANT a husband eventually? No, not really. I just put more emphasis on my role as a mother than a partner. However, as said in a few comments, sure someone may come along and make me feel considerably different; making me want that ring to “complete” my family. Until then, I don’t stress about wanting to be wifed up. But boy do I want another baby to love on.
I don’t think it’s that much harder to love a partner than your own child- if you really, truly love them in the first place. I don’t think marriage has to be difficult. My family is weird though, we don’t get rid of people, even after divorces, etc. If we say we love you, you’re in there. Always. You know, unconditionally and shyt. We have ex husbands and ex wives of family members who now sit the dinner table with their new partners. I didn’t realize this was weird until I became an adult and learned that not all families are this way. My mother and fathers still talk to my ex- more than I do- and still say things like “you’ll always be my son.” My ex recently stayed a week at my parent’s place (out of town) without me even being in town. If you love someone, you love them. Period. At least that’s how I (we) feel.
And I don’t believe in the parents automatically having unconditional love for their offspring thing… I, luckily, have some really really great women friends in my life, and they have been very candid about how they _didn’t_ automatically love their children like they thought they would/ were told they would. One, in particular, had to work very hard at falling in unconditional love with her child. So to the VSSs who think that maybe mothering won’t come naturally to them, you might be right. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have children, it just means you should be prepared to work at that relationship like you would anything else that didn’t come naturally.
At this point, I’d rather have a few children with a loving partner (we don’t have to be married) but at the same time, as the clock ticks and the men seem few and far between, I’m prepared to have one child without a partner if it comes to that.
Never wanted to be a mother. I’m not scared of pregnancy, childbirth, diapers, no sleep, no freedom, no money. I’m scared of what scars I might unintentionally leave that innocent person with once they get old enough for me to really interact with them. My mother decided she didn’t like me around the time I got old enough to have opinions different than hers. And she made it her business to make sure everyone knew I was the problem. And she was fully convinced she was doing the right thing. I am still the scapegoat of my family and I’m still not over it. I would never do something like that to another human being. But am I capable? Of course I am. People fool themselves all the time about the damage they do to their children. Unintentionally. I refuse to do it. Opt out.
So sorry to hear that. People don’t realize how they hurt and scar you. I always say children are born with their personalities and thangs intact, the parenting either nurtures and adds, or damages and subtracts. I don’t want any child to ever have to experience some of things I had to endure and overcome. I feel you on this.
At least as an adult dealing with other adults we have more control, even if we are still left with scars.
.
Wow, that’s some real stuff. I see where you’re coming from, because your experience was my brother’s growing up. The problem with my mom was that as the kids grow up and have their own ideas, they become horrible and selfish to her, as if their only value is focusing their love and attention on her. I’m not saying don’t think about the damage you might do to your kids. Think about whether you honestly think you can be the change in the world that makes it a better place. Obviously, you’ve decided you can’t do it, but I give you credit for at least thinking about it. The problem is that not everyone is that self-aware.
There are people out there that are emotionally bleeding all over the place, splashing their issues onto everyone around them, but they lack the consciousness to even see the blood. Until and unless they figure out what’s bleeding, they’re going to put their pain all over others. I know that’s what happened with my mom, and I have some concerns with my current situation as well. What I do know is that I need to take care of myself emotionally. If I can’t do that, there’s no way in the world I can take care of a child.
Having a child is not the only way to be a change in the world. I do so much more to make the world better than I ever could as a mother. As a parent, its a chap shoot whether the world is a better place with your child in it. People love their kids and all, but if all you contribute is a couple more average humans, what have you done, really. If you get lucky, your child contributes more than another couple of average humans. And then, it will probably be in spite of your flawed self. Parenthood being great and all, but let’s not make it more than what it is. The most common thing one can do.
I agree with you on that. I’m just saying that if you want to break the cycle, if you want to change the way things are in your life and in your surroundings, the best place you can start is with yourself, no matter what you’re trying to change. You’ve chosen to focus on other talents as the best use of your abilities. It’s all good.
Wild Cougar,
You and I will never get along. We will not see eye to eye. I am very sorry that happened to you. I’m sorry that you went through that. Well wishes. Good luck.
Lol, were you contemplating asking me to carry your babies? Jk, thanks. I think.
I recently had this same discussion with my best friend. I told her I see myself as a mom, but not a wife (despite the fact that I’m currently living with my long time boyfriend) :: shrugs ::. I concluded that this is because I grew up with a single mom, and she was a GREAT mom, without being a wife. Guess it’s true–we do become our parents.
not a lot to add, definitely appreciated this insightful post.
i don’t agree that the only way to learn how to be a better partner is by continuing to have relationships, though. especially if you can recognize certain negative tendencies you have in relationships.
i think most relationship issues can be condensed to trust. so yes, for the ultimate proof that there is a woman who is truly worth your complete trust, you will have to find that woman. but before that, you should be ready to commit, trust, etc…& you might need to get to that “ready” space on your own time, without using some new woman’s life as the setting for you to play out all the drama going on in your psyche.
This was a great post, P. You really put it all out there. I can feel you growing a bit on this post. I’m also glad you pointed out this was a discussion you had un undergrad since most of us women think young men are only thinking about one thing…and it ain’t a lifetime of love.
I want to be a wife. My heart stops a bit just thinking about the day I’ll finally meet someone willing to ride through all the bs life is that life will throw our way. I yearn for that partnership, for the connection–emotional, mental, physical, spiritual–that I will have with my future husband. On the other hand, Im not entirely sold on the idea of being a mother. And after spending last week on avfamily vacay with my 2 yr old cousin, I damn sure know I can’t go that ish alone. It’s gonna take one incredible man to convince me otherwise.
P – Did you write this at 5AM at the Reminisce party in a drunken haze? Its real talk…and usually folk don’t real talk sober.
As they old folks says “drunk men tell no lies”.
*snickers*
LOL. no. i didn’t. could have. but no, i didnt.
From a developmental and psychological perspective, I don’t think it’s weird at all to feel more comfortable being a parent rather than a souse. We are animals, and the connection to offspring is something that has to be fought in order to not exist. I’ve been told that I’m a grinch about love, but I think about it this way – this is another random person walking the earth that you just happen to find things in common with and develop some sort of emotional connection to. Nothing but that is bonding you to this person – no genetic similarities (well atleast I hope not), no biological connections. If it wasn’t them, it may have (and maybe still will be) someone else. So the comfort in being connected forever with something of your flesh seems a lot more concrete than having the law connect you to someone else.
Oh and I have commitment issues, and not sure I want children (although I love them), so maybe I’m not the best on explaining the normalcy of all of this…just my $0.02…carry on
I have a friend and he is a great father, but is a true man whore… It is truly possible to be a good father but suck at relationships, be it a husband or significant other.
Very valid post here! I tried reading as many of the comments as I could. Hope this doesn’t turn into a ramble. I honestly don’t know if I want children or a husband. The older I get the more I move away from that, society frowns but meehhh. I want to love and be loved, yes. But also I have an intense fear of ruining a child, and while my goal is to operate from a place of love there is still that.
Also someone made a point way up there that we sometimes assume that people know how to be present in relationships/ love. Even though we are adults for many of us we are still learning how to do this as we go on. We assume in youth and in ignorance (which ever comes first and lasts longer) that loving as a parent comes natural. For some it doesn’t, and a parent who loves their child isn’t always a good one. Then we also assume that loving as a partner comes naturally but the same applies – a partner who loves you isn’t always a good one.
I think there is something to be said for the fact that there isn’t that example for many of us. Even in two parent homes, the example of how to be present and how to be loving doesn’t/didn’t exist. And the example that one had may be different from what your partner had. For some who override that they can give that love to a child because it’s like you are starting at the beginning. With a partner there is all the things they come with and bring into the relationship.
Whew…
This post must have struck a chord with me, because well…I don’t really comment here, ever. Not because I don’t want to, but because by the time I can, there are 987 comments and mine will get lost in the sauce…
Anyways…
I seem to find myself having this discussion with my friends a lot more now…I guess since we are all in our mid-20s, we are now hitting that age where the possibility of marriage and children becomes more real with each passing day. Some in my group are already married, some already have kids…I only know of one person who is married to the person they have their child with, but I guess that’s neither here nor there…to be honest, I know in the back of my mind that I want to be a wife AND a mother someday. While I still have some issues of my own that I need to clean up, I think I’d make a pretty good wife and a pretty good mother in the future. However, I suffer from the same line of thinking of maybe the relationship just isn’t worth it. When you go through a string of relationships and things fall apart, you just get tired. One may argue that I’m too young to get tired, but…whatever, it’s my life, not theirs. You get tired of investing, and re-investing, and loving hard, and trying to communicate to have it all blow up in your face, and you wonder whether or not it makes any logical sense to keep putting yourself back into the line of fire. I have hope that someday it will prove to be worth it, but right now, I’m having a hard time seeing its worth. When it comes to children on the other hand, you can actively see the results of your investment. When they learn how to use the potty, or learn to read, or tie their shoes, or have good manners…there’s living, active proof of the investment that you’ve made. Granted, no one’s child is a Saint, and parenting is one of the hardest jobs out there (so I hear), but the investment seems to be a little bit more tangible. For me.
All that being said, I still want to be a support system for someone, and give them unconditional love and communication and all that comes with creating a successful relationship and eventually a marriage, and I want to be a mother and raise some pretty dope children with a pretty dope dude by my side…all in due time, I guess…
*And since I think in music, the one song that popped in my head as I was reading this was John Mayer – Daughters…seems like it’s really relevant to this post…*
“*And since I think in music, the one song that popped in my head as I was reading this was John Mayer – Daughters…seems like it’s really relevant to this post…*”
PERFECT soundtrack to this post. Leave it to you to come up with one.
Well, you know me! I do what I can for the people…
I thought about this song too; it’s one of my favorites.
Sometimes I think that black women have taken this whole “independent woman” thing to the nth level!! It’s one thing to be independent and to be able to care for myself and handle my business. But, at the end of the day I want a husband to share my life with. Grow with, live with, travel with and raise children with. Family is and has always been the end goal. I’m not saying that I want to be dependent on a man, but I am saying that at some point in my life I want to be able to reliquish some of my responsibilities. I want to know that I with a man that is capable of caring for the both of us (with me as a helper only). Independence is just one road down the long journey of life.
Exactly! If one more person asks me why I don’t have any kids…..I’m well aware of the obvious. When I’m MARRIED, that is something we’ll decide together.
I want to be a wife. I also want to be a mother, but above all, I look forward to being both. Being a single mom (or parent) is definitely something that I would never want to be because to me, its HARD work having to do nearly everything by yourself as far as raising the child(ren) is concerned. I applaud anyone who is currently a single parent but I know its a shoe that I cannot fit.
But I digress. Relationships are not easy, and I mean all kinds of relationships in this case; bf/gf, wife/husband, child/parent, etc.
My parents have been married for almost 40 years not because their marriage doesn’t come with problems like every other marriage, it’s because they work through their problems every time. This weekend, I saw my mom go from being completely frustrated/pissed off at my dad for something he did, or didn’t do in this case (she’s asked my dad for WEEKS to get something done since she’s recovering from surgery and can’t do it herself) to buying him 4 shirts and asking a complete stranger where he got his shoes because they will look great on her husband- all within a widow of 4 hours. She did this on her first trip outside the house since her surgery! I’ve also seen my mother being the first person to my brother’s aid right after he did exactly what she told him not to do.
I guess what I’m trying to say, even though it may sound super corny is, love and patience are what is required to make any kind of relationship work.
I’m not a mother, and I’d like to be a wife.
Nice reflection.
I don’t share the same sentiment though. There are different reasons for why I would like children versus wanting a life-long companion. And those reasons do not intersect nor do they conflict. Eventually I want both though and feel like I can be great at both a long-term companionship and fatherhood at the same time.
Even though each requires some sorts of ability or task that’s involved in the other, I don’t think doing one gives you any incite on the other. Every person at some point falls victim of their own lack of communication. That is a choice. I’m willing to work hard to become a great father AND work hard to be a great spouse even though the type of work would be different for each.
Communication.
It’s a choice. I don’t think I should always communicate feelings or not. Through my practice, I’ve learned that what’s more important that knowing HOW to communicate is actually knowing WHEN to attempt to communicate. Of course, EVERY woman in the world will say they wants to know -> period. But it’s my (our) responsibility to gauge when it makes sense to open that can of worms. Basically, curiosity versus caring. People in our relationships want to know and “communicate” due to those two concepts.
How can you tell the difference b/t caring and curiosity?
Someone who is caring at the moment does NOT need to know what’s going on. They’re more concerned about your well being.
Someone who is just curious at the moment needs to know what’s going on. They are concerned with how what you’re dealing with affects them.
If I detect someone is simply “curious” then there’s really no point in telling them anything. However, those who it is clear that they care, I’ll spill it with no regrets.
I treat people how I want to be treated, so I’ll let a person know that we don’t have to “talk about it.” I don’t have to know what it is to notice something is bothering a person and to take steps to contribute some positive energy.
And BTW, of course caring and curiosity isn’t always mutually exclusive.
this entry has stirred me. i am both a mother and a wife and i can understand the author’s conclusion that fatherhood is likely better than being a husband. i believe it is easier to parent than to partner. i love my children naturally and freely. perhaps it’s because i see them as an extension of me, perhaps because of some biological/evolutionary imperatives that make me put up with all of the things that come with raising them well. perhaps it’s because i view them as innocent and un-equal and dependent players in the relationship we share. my husband does not receive the benefit of an assumption of innocence. i don’t view him as an un-equal and dependent participant in our relationship. i don’t have a biological/evolutionary interest in his survival. my love for him and my interest in him being the best man he can be is for his good, my good, and our children’s good, but it is a distant second priority to the growth and welfare of my children. this, i expect is also true in converse.
so yes, i can see why the author is more inclined to be a parent than to be partnered with a woman he had no say in raising – that comes with her own hurts and hang ups. i applaud the honesty.
p.s. sorry about the break-up.
this was a great comment. i think it gives some light to how many of us view the different relationships. it makes sense for me anyway. thanks.
I like this. It pretty much sums up my own feelings.
There is no comparison between being a great parent and being a great partner in my opinion. Nothing makes those roles parallel enough to have someone be equally good at both.
The heart does something completely different when it comes to children as opposed to a partner. Children are loved from birth, really before. You have to grow to love your partner.
I’d much rather be a wife over a mother however that’s not the way my situation worked out. I have an 8 year old son whom I love dearly but I would much rather be a wife than a single parent. His father is a great parent. We just weren’t great together.
I’d venture to say that while some of the traits needed to be a good parent are the same as what is needed to be a great spouse there are so many more that one must possess to be a great partner to someone of the opposite sex. Our understanding and communication is completely different with our children than with our partner. Relationships are just flawed for some reason. Not irrevocably, we just chose not to put the elbow grease into relationships that we do parenthood. As parents we refuse to fail, in relationships we look for the other person to fail.
The love is you have for your children is like the love GOD has for us= Agape, love is is unconditional, everlasting.
The love between a man and a woman, lovers = Eros
The love in friendship = Philos.
*Ideally all three should be intertwined like a rope between a husband and wife, the bond is stronger*
I understand your comment but some parents aren’t that dedicated either.
My father is the exact opposite of you, Panama. Now, don’t get me wrong, I love him dearly and know that he loves me and would do anything for me. But, while he very obviously cherishes my mom and puts her before absolutely everything else, he sucks when it comes to communicating that to his kids. We were always provided for and given everything he could manage to give us, but aside from that we were not treated well. At all. My dad’s a real hard@ss. Our every move was controlled, and we were constantly yelled at and on “punishment,” even though we were good kids. It’s hard to explain in a way that would make anyone understand the gravity of the situation if they hadn’t witnessed it firsthand, but if you were a fly on the wall in my house, you would be constantly cringing at how my siblings and I were treated. And you would worry about our emotional health.
We all turned out pretty good, I think. I don’t think any of us doubt that our father loves us. It’s just that, while he has qualities that make him a great husband, he’s missing a lot of the qualities that make someone a great dad. Namely, communication skills and patience. He wanted us to be who he wanted us to be out the gate, rather than understanding that we were kids and needed to grow into those people. And he’s not very in tune with his own emotions, so he’s constantly blowing up about something that seems trivial, until you realize that he’s not just blowing up about the current issue…he’s let all these other thoughts and feelings build up over time. We, the kids, are all grown and have moved away now, and things have improved between my dad and me (I’m the oldest and kind of the “golden” child)…but my younger siblings don’t really have a relationship with him. I really hope this changes in the future, and I think it will. At least, I pray it will.
The post and comments today, including my own, have made me realize that many men don’t just naturally have the ability to show love like women do. Note, I said show love, not love. Men just aren’t as good at communicating or being sensitive to others’ feelings. This is why someone who is a great father can be a horrible husband, or someone who is a great husband can be a not-so-great father. With (most) women, when you love someone, you automatically want to nurture them and be affectionate with them. The same isn’t true for men, I guess. With men, it seems that feeling love and showing it are two completely different things that do not necessarily go hand in hand, and whether they do depends on a bunch of different factors.
Damn, that whole “men simple, women complicated” thing is now out the window.
Damn, that whole “men simple, women complicated” thing is now out the window.
and how does it feel knowing that this is true?
I never really bought into all that, but it feels good to be able to say it with some certainty. It’s a commonality between us, and it nullifies the notion that there’s something wrong with women because we’re so “complex,” or something wrong with men because they aren’t complex enough. We’re all works in progress, and all complex in our own right. It’s nice to have the understanding that no one has it all figured out.
Having an African heritage, being a baby daddy is completely out of the picture for me, having just turned 30, marriage and the inherent responsibility is always on my mind and I know I have to be successful in that because that’s the only way I can achieve my goal of being a father. Nedu is not going to be the first in my whole family to fail, every example in my extended family including parents points to, till death do us part, that’s why I’m not gonna compromise on the character and intelligence of a VSS when choosing a life long partner because the stakes are very very HIGH.
Well said. Having African heritage myself,there is just no way having a child on my own without the benefit of marriage is ever going to happen..As far as I’m concerned ,marriage comes first then children not the other way around. That’s just my personal opinion.
I read a lot of the comments. TheAnti-cool, you may not know but I am a fan of yours. More now than ever.
I’ve been considering adoption for a very long time. I’ve hemmed and hawed at the idea because my life is every changing with dramatic ups & downs. I know it isn’t about that with kids. Now may be more important regardless of stability than later when stable simply because of the emotions inside. Still, I hesitate.
My mother is unbelievable. I was blessed with her. She crafted me gentle & caring but straight and true. All I want is to share that love. I, however, will not compromise that love. Children can receive the love in any format whereas lovers put restrictions on how you may present yourself. It don’t make it easier & it isn’t like the kids are accepting you for who you are but they have no agenda. They don’t know how to not be honest.
There is so much going on inside adults that we forget how to get along with each other. Personally, I excel at dealing with people. What they see is what they get. My goal is to genuinely help them to realize the great things about self. Why? Because sharing love feels better. I’m selfish that way. Kids are always wanting of love. Even in bad days, they can be managed without ever raising a tone. But you cannot teach somebody something that they already know. Grown-ups take the “I already know” approach far too often. Almost like you are challenging them. It becomes cumbersome and annoying and before you know it, you are emotionally striking back in ways you never thought possible. All because you are hurt. Pain begets pain.
I definitely did not intend to go this long, I didn’t want to say this much. Perhaps, I simply cannot deny how much “the future” means to me. If it meant being lonely, then charge me to the game. I’d rather contribute directly than to be somebody else’s punching bag because they couldn’t get over self. I’m always going to choose children over love because love would never and should never ask me to choose them over children. That is simply how I see it.
Oh, but I do think your spouse; your love, should be the MOST important person to you. They simply do not overwrite your responsibility to share this World with Love.
Thank you for your kind words. And I feel everything you’ve said here. This is what I was trying to say upthread but I think you’ve said it better than me.
Jsyk, between you and me(me & you, yo momma and yo cousins too.)
I think you are awesome
I won’t raise you to the pedestal of a throne BUT you can DEFINITELY go take a seat at a round table for the people that say what my heart is feeling. There are a few…they should know…
Good stuff! My cousin has a child (she’s 9 now) and he’s a great father, but as my friend once remarked it doesn’t matter because he sucks as a person. He and baby mama are still together, but he is not faithful, hems and haws about marrying her, and does other shady things in life. I’ve observed this behavior over the years and have wondered how the two can be reconciled – great father, not so great person. What will happen as his daughter gets older? How will she see him when she’s no longer looking him as “daddy” but a real person? What will she want in her husband, if she even wants one at all? These are the things I wonder.
In terms of my feelings on this issue – I used to take care of cousin mentioned above child when she was a toddler. And that’s when I realized how much I wanted to be a mother. And that I could adopt a child if I don’t get chose. But popping out a nig’s baby with no ring on my finger? Not for me. Mainly because mama who’s been married 38 years said that even when you’re married (and you’ve picked a good partner) the mother still bears the weight of the child rearing. And so I would rather start out on my own and know I was in this thing on my own and this was my choice. No one else to blame or look to for help, support, etc….
I wanted my very first comment on here to be AT LEAST 5 poetry snaps deep, but against all logic, you made me Google Esther Baxter. O_0 does that mean that im gay now?
P!!!, what is your dad’s name? I swear we related. You’re a big time Jay Z fan, and you just described my ish to a effin tee. This could be my life story. Seriously.
Great post and topic PJ. This is something i have thought about a lot as of late. I have seriously looked at artificial insemination. I have helped raised a lot of kids and I love them. I am not afraid of commitment but I am afraid of disappointing a potential mate/husband. There is so much pressure on us (men and women) to be a certain way. Look a certain way, be a certain thing, speak, smell, spell, dress a certain way. The list can go on and on and why we may or may not be good enough to marry. it is a lot of pressure. I do not have those have those same fears with children. Having a child for some people, may be a clean slate. no pressure, just love from the very beginning. Just a thought
While I am neither a father nor husband, I am an uncle and I have dated. I agree that the same skills required for one are necessary for the other, such as patience, effective communication, trust, and ability to love. However, the difference comes in expectations. My niece doesn’t understand that I have to go to work, or that I can’t send her Skype messages all the time, or that adults need to make money to buy food, clothing and shelter. All she knows is whether or not I’m there to see her. Adults can understand such circumstances and will adjust to fit these.
At the same time, our expectations of the other person are different as well. We don’t expect children to hold grudges or be insecure about their lives based on history, because they don’t quite have a history yet. They don’t hold assumptions, so we don’t expect them to. The only thing we expect from them is love. We expect so much more from our partners – that they listen to us, that they care for us when we’re sick, that they know what’s going on in our heads so that they do JUST the right thing to make us feel better. And when they don’t live up to expectations, or we don’t live up to theirs, we become disappointed and, at times, disillusioned. With kids, all we have to do is be there, and all we require from them is love.
If only we could love like kids again…
Stay up, homie.
yea,
I realized that my job as a father will be short-lived, that is, childhood goes by quickly, and soon they (my churn) will be driving themselves off to college. and then what?
I suspect the importance of being a good husband (besides it being the basis of being a good father) will become much more apparent at that point to those who previously discounted it.
as hard as it is, I enjoy being a husband.
that is all.
“my churn”
This is sooooooo Louisiana! I love it!! : )
excuse me while i cry a small tear for my f*cked up husband who makes the best dad to our baby girl…………….
I happened upon this blog by accident and am glad I did. I am both a husband and a father and have had similar convos (proof they happen more than just once). I never gave myself the option of being a father without being a husband mostly b/c I’d never seen it work that way. My pops wasn’t around and was a poor parent, blah, blah, blah. I think that part of being a father is being there, for the big things and the small things. And I’m not sold that is possible if you are not a husband as well. I would miss out on so much if I wasn’t at the crib all the time with my kids that it would take the fun out of being a father.
I feel you on the relationship point, but bringing a kid into a situation where there is only an agreement to love the kid and not each other is a difficult situation for the parents and the kid.
great read though!!
There was a time where being a husband seemed fulfilling, but not anymore…
As far as fatherhood… No rush, but I will probably get here way before matrimony…
Matrimony is not the wave…
I have a niece who i love to bits..i get the whole natural inclination to love and care for a child..salute you all those who do..but am thinking can people try to find a balance..love and care for both with out question as long as they have not given PAUSE and even if they have could you treat your spouse/ girlfriend /boyfriend as a best buddy not an adversary, cause we all give those so may second chances…can we all just get along…..
As regards choosing between a child and a spouse..caution to those who choose children first before their spouse, children grow up and leave, live their lives..and what is one left with?..yes they will call see on on holidays..if they make it but they wont be there….your spouse will be there…cause there life is with you…could we treat children as blessings that complete the first Union …and not neglect our partners after
“As regards choosing between a child and a spouse..caution to those who choose children first before their spouse, children grow up and leave, live their lives..and what is one left with?..yes they will call see on on holidays..if they make it but they wont be there….your spouse will be there…cause there life is with you…could we treat children as blessings that complete the first Union …and not neglect our partners after”
it is true that we must value the people we’ve committed to living with by choice. however, it is my life’s goal to raise the children i have into independent humans that WILL leave home prepared for earth. that is “winning the game”. i can be alone in my house, with children grown and gone, and still have “won”. avoiding being alone, ensuring that someone will “be there” is not my goal.
Its not so much about ” avoiding being alone, ensuring that someone will “be there” as u put it.. children as awesome as they are, when they grow up..they tend to disappoint, the love does not wane but the disappointments register…so if you looking for “winning” salvation through your children that could be a fail..this is coming from some one who’s father failed as a husband.but was a good father. Women tend to put their all into children..with good intentions..but it can be suffocating..as a daughter..i do not think my parents can say..i have lived my life the way they had planned it out for me..my mum’s love is unceasing ..but at times i wonder..is that all there is to it..children..children that grow up and rebel..All am saying is, It is not all roses when you choose children.. Can we work at both..i do not believe in limitations…A husband…in all his goodness am looking forward too..and i dont know what i would do with out children…they are the purest form of little humans
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‘But how can you be a lazy partner and a great father. Except, that happens all of the time. There are lots of women out there with children by men who are as attentive and effective and involved as one could ask for to their kids. And cold as hell to the women who birthed them. Odd future.”
This never happens. It is impossible to be a good father to a child and not be their example of how a good husband looks treats his wife. You’ve done your children a disservice if you’ve never demonstrated, for them, what healthy functional family relationships look like. This is because, as an adult, most of your daughter’s life will revolve around two things: her career and her romantic relationships (and the children that are the result of those relationships).
“Do as I say, not as I do” is an effective method of teaching your children…never. I’ve heard it said time and again that one of the best things you can do for your children is be good to their mother. However, I have never heard someone say their non-custodial father was a “great parent” without feeling sorry for the fact that they had so reduced their standards for even normal parent-child relationships.
It is particularly important for the fathers of girls to recognize their role in their children’s lives and respond appropriately. I am absolutely frightened at the issues that my friends whose parents divorced early on have. I don’t have any friends whose parents never married. I can’t even imagine what that does to a blossoming woman’s worldview.
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