I Can’t Root For The Knicks Anymore If Derrick Rose Is On Our Team » VSB

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I Can’t Root For The Knicks Anymore If Derrick Rose Is On Our Team

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I’ve experienced the sweet torture of being a New York Knickerbockers fan for almost my entire life.

So much of my youth was defined by major Knicks heartbreaks. There was the 1995 Eastern Semifinals against the Pacers. The ’97 Eastern Conference Semifinals against the Heat. The Finals when Olajuwon stole John Starks’ life force and refused to give it back.

Then there was — and unfortunately still is — the James Dolan era, a man I’ve spoken ill of more times than I can count. From six different coaches in seven seasons to every contract blunder you can think of (Eddy Curry, Allan Houston’s last one, every overinflated Melo figure, all things Marbury), to letting Isaiah Thomas run ANYTHING, if I got a chicken wing for every time I’ve loudly proclaimed “Fuck James Dolan” I’d quickly balloon up to the size of the 400-lb hackers Trump alleges are infiltrating our national party committees.

Through it all, I’ve remained loyal. A large part of this is that hometown sports fandom is intrinsically masochistic, and for New Yorkers especially more so; a large part of NYC “authenticity” is peppered by chest-puffing over how much you’ve seen and struggled through with a near-comically sadistic sense of pride. Only a city where its residents will brag about surviving taking the train when it was a legitimately dangerous mode of transportation or going through Times Square when it was a drug den and sex-worker haven can withstand the crushing blow of eight points in 11 seconds.

That said, for all of the demoralizing losses and abject failures, every so often there’s a glimmer of why you come to love your home team so much that you cling to those memories. Starks dunking on the entire Bulls organization. Game three of the 99 Finals against the Spurs, capping off an incredible run as an 8th seed. Pat Riley’s old hair.

However, even the greatest Knicks moments tend to to have a coda of disappointment; of winning the battle, but ultimately never the war; of counting the decades since the last time we laid claim to the Larry O’Brien trophy and remembering we never did because we last took the title before O’Brien was ever a commissioner. To be a Knicks fan is to be a glutton for punishment; to believe that, despite even your more historic moments being defined by failure, this season might be the one where we pull it altogether, even when you know it almost certainly won’t. It’s a bittersweet existence that I’d largely resigned myself to; an unwavering love for an organization that simply refuses to love me back no matter how hard it tries to get itself together.

The saga of Derrick Rose, however, might be just what it takes to get me to walk away from the franchise.

For those who have lost sight of this case, the highlights are as follows:

In 2015, a Jane Doe filed a civil suit against Rose and two of his friends, alleging that she was gang raped while severely intoxicated and unable to consent in 2013. The case largely avoided heavy media coverage post filing, but with the deposition resuming and both sides start preparing for trial, every new detail becomes more stomach turning than the last:

1.  Since the filing of the motion, there seems to have been consistent effort from Rose’s PR team to smear the accuser’s reputation in the public eye. A quick search of TMZ will generate headlines such as “’Rape’ Lawsuit Is … JUST A MONEY GRAB”, “ACCUSER CONSENTED TO GROUP SEX … Mad Over Sex Toy”, “You’re No Prude YOU HOOKED UP WITH NICK YOUNG”,”RAPE ACCUSER FILED POLICE REPORT … 2 Years After Incident” – all standard-issue tried and true methods of attempting to discredit claims of sexual abuse.

2. These claims have moved over from PR “leaks” to actual legal strategy by Rose’s representation. An excerpt from a filed memorandum includes the following: “Plaintiff is publicly portraying herself as sexual. The production includes photos from Plaintiff’s Instagram account that are sexual in nature. In these images, Plaintiff is dressed in provocative attire, is in sexually suggestive poses, and is in photographs indicating that she engages in sexually charged encounters with more than one man at a time.” While thankfully this argument was not appreciated by the presiding judge, the planned defense of Rose’s team seems to be continuously pepper with allegations founded in traditional slut-shaming, continuously accusing her of being sexually adventurous and therefore more amenable to group sex.

3. There has been increasingly troubling discussion around the concept of affirmative consent, which, regardless of Rose’s lawyers’ implications, is required in each an every sexual interaction, no matter how sexually adventurous participants may or may not be. During his deposition, Rose himself states “we leaving to go over to someone’s house at 1:00, there’s nothing to talk about” — suggesting quite incorrectly that consent is implied and cannot be withdrawn at any point by parties involved. This misconception by Rose is further accentuated by the admission by Rose’s own team that he does not understand what consent means.

4. Last, but certainly not least, the judge has ruled that the alleged victim must remove the current cloak of anonymity and use her full name should the case make it to trial — a blow to the long understood precedent of rape cases, especially high-profile ones. To be clear, the plaintiff is not anonymous to Rose or his legal team. They know full well who she is and have accessed her social media, her friends, and of course their personal interactions via phone call and text messages. His team only wants her name out there for her life to be ripped apart and excoriated by the media and public. As it stands, even under the Jane Doe pseudonym, it has been pushed that the victim is an NBA groupie, a money grubber, and a sexually loose woman. We shouldn’t expect any of the treatment to alleviate once her name is disseminated to the general public.

In the recent offseason, the Knicks acquired Rose. He’s expected to be the starting point guard for the season, knees notwithstanding. And beyond being unable to fathom how a starting five containing Melo, Porzingis, and Rose can equitably distribute the ball, I don’t think I can stand by my home team while this abominable saga plays out in the backdrop.

I don’t expect a sports franchise in any league to bench a player over charges that haven’t resulted in criminal charges or civil penalties yet. Just looking at the NBA, this is a league in which Kobe’s admission that he probably did rape that girl is a fact that’s glossed over in any retelling of his legacy, regardless of whether you love or hate him. But in a year littered with increased attention to rape and sexual assault cases and how historically poorly they are treated — from Brock Turner, to Nate Parker, to the Vanderbilt football Team, to the ongoing saga at the University of Richmond — I can’t in good conscience show love for my team knowing that one of the current faces of the franchise was more than likely an active participant in one of the worst violations a person can commit against another human being.

Rape and sexual assault victims deserve our support far more than their abusers do, no matter how talented they are in their chosen vocation, and ultimately trumps any fealty I may have; I can only hope that there comes a day that this becomes the social consensus as opposed to a principle held by the minority. As a survivor of sexual assault myself, someone who has consistently advocated for domestic violence and sexual assault victims in multiple capacities, and a woman, there are some bifurcations of the “art” versus the “person” that I personally can’t stomach, even if it comes at the expense of one of the longest relationships that I hold dear, or results in me rooting for the redemption of Brandon Jennings. Until then, I’ll keep my Knicks gear tucked away for the foreseeable future.

Shamira Ibrahim

Shamira is a twentysomething New Yorker who likes all things Dipset. You can join her in waxing poetically about chicken, Cam'ron, and gentrification (gotta have some balance) under the influence of varying amounts of brown liquor at her semi-monthly blog, shamspam.tumblr.com

  • Wow… just anything to make women NOT REPORT? Like where’s her protection?

    I told my daughter if she is ever violated….God forbid.. call ME first not the cops. That’s all I’m saying.

    • Other_guy13

      God forbid…and it’s sad you need to have that conversation…but who can you trust if not mom dukes. I pray she is spared from such situations though.

    • LMNOP

      Your daughters lucky, I know so many people who’s moms reacted horribly to stuff like this.

      • I have many friends and relatives (smh) that have been violated and en tire generations know and NOBODY DOES A DAYUM THING. Not mine… If I can protect a girl.. I do and I have. Black folks are incredibly silent when it comes to the violation of our kids.

        • OG Mermaid

          Because no one wants to share the families’ dirty little secret; And we’re also taught what happens at my house, stays at my house. Which for all intents and purposes was meant for the kids not to air the families business and to promote the “no snitching” agenda.

          • I know where it comes from but to not offer protection makes everybody bytch ayus ni66as ..

      • As a teacher and school admin, I’ve seen mothers blame their daughters for being sexually assaulted. Or for having a guy they trusted text their nudes to all the other boys on campus. It is a shame.

        https://hhharris.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/where-the-reaper-rests/
        Join the Facebook community– https://www.facebook.com/forthedeadanddying

        • OG Mermaid

          I’ve seen this too; And while some are having their rape kits performed.

        • grownandsexy2

          There was a teacher in Philly a few years ago that was convicted of r@ping his daughter beginning when she was 8 for approximately 8 years and mom was complicit in this heinous crime. The daughter said he r@ped her in every way imaginable. Both threatened to send her back to Liberia if she ever told. What kind of father r@pes his daughter and what kind of woman co-signs? Some of his male students said he always made inappropriate remarks which were chexual in nature and always found a reason to touch them.

          • This is disgusting. I have a hard time understanding the mother’s actions in this one.

  • Other_guy13

    FINALLY SOMEONE TALKS ABOUT THIS!!!! SHAM YOU ROCK….D-Rose is a bad person. He prob bought like 50 of those Usher hoodies. I hope he blow out those knees again…I really do.

    • HouseOfBonnets

      Me and you both… 9 times out of 10 it might happen.

  • Other_guy13

    I read this case and it really disgust me that a persons sexual past can be used against them. So what she had a relationship with you? So what she may have been down for some other stuff in the past? So what she has a past and has been linked to others? None of this matters….if a person say’s no in that moment…stop…easy as that. The fact that he can’t describe what consent is…he slick bragged and was like “they knew what it was” shows his mindset. He always struck me as someone who doesn’t quite have it all upstairs…but that’s no excuse. I really used to root for this man but I stopped once I heard about this. The messed up part is they not even denying it happened…they just blaming her. F that guy…seriously

    • Asiyah

      “a persons sxual past can be used against them”

      only when that person is female

      • TJ

        Say it again.

      • Other_guy13

        A man’s past can be used against him as well…esp in term of men being r@ped by women…but that’s besides the point.It shouldn’t matter…instead of digging into a persons past, they should really investigate the actual incident and if it leads to other cases so be it. But for that to be one of the first thing thrown up is disgusting.

        • Asiyah

          It *can* be used against him, but most of the time it isn’t (unless he’s gay). In cases of men being r*ped by women the thing that’s always used against men is that they are s*xual creatures who are far stronger than women so a) he ALWAYS wants it and b) if he doesn’t, he can simply overpower her.

          Nevertheless, I absolutely agree with your point. Digging through a person’s past in an attempt to immediately deem that person a liar is disgusting.

          • cyanic

            He can’t overpower her if she has his Johnson in her mouth.

            • Asiyah

              Plenty of people might disagree with that if their preconceived notion is that men are always physically stronger than women and there’s no way he can’t overpower her, even with his Johnson in her mouth.

              • cyanic

                Men don’t want to lose their Johnson.

                • Asiyah

                  And I understand that, but plenty of people, NOT ME, don’t see things that way. Plenty of MEN actually who have this need to always be masculine can’t grasp the idea that a woman can somehow overpower them physically.

                • Other_guy13

                  So you don’t think a man can be r@ped by a woman?

                  • cyanic

                    Orally yes. If she’s straddling you you can push her off.

                    • Asiyah

                      so you pretty much think just like the plenty of people I was talking about earlier. got it.

                    • cyanic

                      Are you saying the average straight guy is too a roused to stop the activity on his own free will?

                    • Asiyah

                      No.

                    • Sigma_Since 93

                      You sound like the converse of men explaining away why it happens and why it’s wrong.

                      http://thoughtcatalog.com/lorenzo-jensen-iii/2014/08/19-men-share-stories-of-being-raped-by-a-woman-nsfw/

                    • cyanic

                      This is so wrong but the first story has me smirking in amusement.

                    • LMNOP

                      There are all different kinds of situations people can get raped in, you can be physically overpowered, incapacitated, outnumbered, have a weapon pulled on you, overpowered in a non-physical way, abuse of power.

                      Even assuming a larger, stronger male (which is not always true) there is still plenty of possibility of a man being raped by a woman. Also for men who don’t and won’t hit women, that can run surprisingly deep, even when there’s a threat to their safety.

                    • cyanic

                      Valid. Never thought about the drugging scenario.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      A friend of mine was murdered by women in that way.

                    • cyanic

                      Was he dating his murderer?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Nope. He refused to do a drug deal so someone sent these two chicks after him. It was 2 women. Met at a party. They slipped something in his drink and “took him home”. Stabbed him in the park and burned his body.

                    • cyanic

                      How old was he?

                  • TJ

                    Perfect gif right now.

            • Other_guy13

              What??? I can’t

  • TheOtherJerome

    The smearing of the victim and the lemmings that repeat those smears makes one lose faith in humanity.

    66% of chexual assaults go unreported. Why? Partially because of crap like this.

    And yeah, Kobe paid money to get out of it. His PR team sl-t shammed his accuser to shreds in the public arena. Then offered money to make it go away. It’s mildly surprising that Kobe stans never seem to remember that…. or care.

    And THATS whats in store for Rose’s “alleged” victim. Once her name gets out there, it’s over. And the fans will cheer like nothing ever happened.

  • TJ

    Thank you Shamira! Seriously, theses teams, schools, studios and other institutions do nothing until it’s affecting the bottom line.

    As someone who is a casual sports spectator, I actually don’t know the gender breakdown of professional sports fans. I’d take a wild guest and say that professional sports fan bases are mostly male. Until the overwhelming majority of men who engage with professional sports check the leagues and threaten not spending their dollars…nothing is going to be done do address violence against women. And even when it happens and these leagues act, it’s not because they care about women…it’s because they care about coin.

    Most of the ills plaguing society can only truly be resolved with real buy-in from those who benefit from it.

    Also, when Jeff Van Gundy left…I left. Lol.

  • cyanic

    Kobe’s accuser had relations 72 hours after the alleged attack. You might suggest I’m s-shaming her. But it sounds completely atypical for a victim of a s e x u a l assault to engage in s e x u a l activity so soon after.

    • TJ

      Interesting. I need to read up on this and find some studies. Curious, not shady.

      However, for assault that occurs in the context of relationships and marriages…is this the case?

      • Asiyah

        That also reminds me of the number of people who don’t think spousal r*pe is possible. SMH

        • Other_guy13

          This too

        • grownandsexy2

          Yep. These dinosaurs still exist.

      • cyanic

        What person who’s violated s e x u a l l y wants to engage in that activity soon after being victimized?

        • Other_guy13

          I actually know someone who did. She was r@ped by a guy and the next day she slept with her boyfriend because she was still trying to convince herself it never happened. Dude never went to jail but he was beat up pretty bad after he was caught bragging about running a train on her while she was drunk. It happens…bruh..to put yourself in her shoes and her state of mind would be impossible.

        • Asiyah

          How can you determine what a victim wants to or doesn’t want to do? You have no idea. Maybe she wanted comfort from someone she feels comfortable with. Maybe she was numb to the previous assault. You. don’t. know.

          And that line of thinking is very similar to those who think that there’s no way a woman can overpower a man thus men can’t be raped. Many think “what man wouldn’t want a woman throwing herself at him? I’m always down for that.”

          • Tambra

            Because he is under the assumption that there is one set of behaviour after being s exual ly assaulted. If all the boxes are not checked then it didn’t happen.

            • Asiyah

              we gotta be perfect victims or else it’s all our fault!

              • Tambra

                Damn Eve!

            • cyanic

              Never said that. My mindset is once someone has gone there with me. I would feel a lot less s e x u a l.

              • Tambra

                You do not have to say something to say something. That is you but people react differently.

              • Asiyah

                but others don’t have your same mindset. Every mind is a world of its own.

          • Duff Soviet Union

            It just comes back to the myth of the perfect victim. Some dickheads (not naming names here) think there’s only one way for a rape / domestic violence victim to act after the fact and anyone who even slightly deviates from that must be a liar.

        • Someone who is traumatized, or is behaving in a way to help them get over the fact that they are violated?

          • cyanic

            Make it plain pastor.

        • LMNOP

          A lot of people. Maybe you don’t want to have that stuck in your mind as “s ex” so you try to replace it with something else that is more positive. Or you want to prove to yourself that you’re not that affected by what happened. There are a decent number of reasons a person would do this that tie in directly to having been recently raped, and then there is also the fact that people have s ex, it’s just part of life.

    • TheOtherJerome

      And here we go.

      • TJ

        I’m not allowing myself to be sucked into the vortex. NOPE NOPE NOPE. The VSB comment section is a friendly, loving place comprised of decent human beings. Lol.

    • Asiyah

      That’s not atypical.

    • Buster Cannon

      But it sounds completely atypical for a victim of a s e x u a l assault to engage in s e x u a l activity so soon after.

      That actually does happen more than you’d think.

    • brothaskeeper
    • miss t-lee
      • Tambra

        Walk away girl just walk away.

        • miss t-lee

          I’ve always been hard-headed…lol

          • Tambra

            Me too. Worst thing is for me to make up my mind, hard for me to change sometimes .

      • TJ

        I’m done. Going to rub Jamaican black castor oil on these edges. I’m skressed.

        • miss t-lee

          Always maintain them edges chica.

    • Brooklyn_Bruin

      Let the games begin!

    • cedriclathan

      I’m confused, if you put all the letters of the word “sexual” together, you’ll get censored? Here goes…..

    • God Shammgod

      I find it interesting that you have decided to counter Kobe’s own admission that he stated free of will and under no risk of criminal pressure or civil liability.

      • cyanic

        I read the link. I brought this point up because that always felt to me as the smoking gun she was lying about the assault.

    • Kema

      Atypical things happen.

    • NonyaB

      I’ve come to realize that in every session of commenting on VSB, especially on touchy subjects, a candidate for “What in the Entire Fxck” award emerges. Your comment wins it, so, rather than get into the absurdity of policing victim reactions, I’ll just drop your plaque and exit. Carry on.

    • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

      Not atypical my dude. Fall back to restart.

  • Asiyah

    I’ve noticed something and while this in no way justifies anything it disturbs me to no end: the number of men who don’t know what consent is and have no idea what rape/s*xual assault is. Can you believe that? How can you not know? I know this is fictional and hyperbolic at times, but I remember an episode of Law and Order: SVU where detectives were investigating multiple rapes over the years at a frat house and one guy who participated in a gang rape called the guidance counselor and asked him if what he had done was rape. The counselor then told him that if he messaged the girl and invited her out on a date after the fact and she said yes then it wasn’t rape after all. And that now he sees he might have raped her after all. Sounds stupid, but this isn’t the first I’ve heard of men being legit confused by this. Sadly, there are many, and I can’t help but wonder where we are failing as a society. Or, if it’s simply a case of people not wanting to learn what that is so as not to be held accountable in the future. I have no idea, but this is scary. and it keeps victims from getting justice.

    • Other_guy13

      Simple…no, stop, i’m not ready, I don’t want to do this any more, if it makes you happy, I can’t are all clear signs that something needs to stop immediately. It doesn’t mean push harder…contrary to popular belief…everyone don’t want a brotha to take it. Always proceed on the side of caution and you will be fine…at least that’s what moms taught me.

      • Asiyah

        I think it’s simple as well and that many just want to make it complicated in order to assuage their own feelings of guilt or silence their own entitlement issues over other people’s bodies. Maybe that’s what should be pointed out: YOU ARE WILLFULLY PLAYING YOURSELF. NO MEANS NO. NO EXCEPTIONS. GET OVER IT.

    • cakes_and_pies

      Rape is somewhat romanticized.
      How many scenes in movies and TV shows have you seen that show a woman trying to wrestle out off the arms of a man only to have her give up and have s*x?
      I don’t know how old you are but one of the biggest Soap Opera wedding was Luke and Laura.
      Luke aggressively raped Laura, she fell in love with him, and they lived happily ever after.

      • Tambra

        Romance novels taught that too. How many first encounters were forced but they fell in love and all was forgiven.

        • cakes_and_pies

          It so perverse and subtle.

          • Tambra

            Girl. The crap womanhood has been taught all in the name of being a lady. Like seriously, I do not cuss but it is things like that which makes me want to say eff being a lady.

        • Brooklyn_Bruin

          Romance novels are largely written by women for women.

          Apparently there is something ($)exy about these scenarios that 50 year old housewives find titillating.

          Much like kink, Milf and BBW pr0n has gained market share.

          America isn’t ready to have this kind of conversation. Da Gawd Todd mentioned the c-word in the previous post – and guarantee folks was clutching their cowry shells

          • Tambra

            Living vicariously through other people or fiction eh. Largest consumers of pron are who again? The hardest people to be honest with are ourselves. We all can be superpeople in our own way by ignoring the kryptonite.

            • Brooklyn_Bruin

              Pr0n is largely men, romance novels is largely women.

              But bedroom topics are taboo generally. You can’t even type chex on disqus without getting moderated.

              I’m willing to bet that Derrick Rose and his homies have done this before and it was cool.

              But This time it was a Nate Parker/Tupac Shakur/Freddie Gibbs(?) situation.

              There’s this elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about

          • Negro Libre

            There’s historical records of BDSM going all the way back to the Sumerians…and this is a Puritan culture (in terms of public behavior…privately, we’re pervs), so “honest convo”, I don’t see that coming anytime soon.

            • Tambra

              In many ways 2 distinct periods or so eras of European history still continue to rule :- Victorian and Cromwellian.

              • Negro Libre

                Culture are far less malleable than modern people like to believe.

      • Asiyah

        YES! So many Spanish-language soap operas had that as a plot line: man r*pes woman while he was drunk, they find each other some time later while he was sober, they fall in love, then they do it and she realizes he was the one who r*ped her but you know LOVE and they live happily ever after.

      • Look at Revenge of the Nerds. Same thing.

        • miss t-lee

          Yup. Exact same thing.

        • Look at 80s comedies in general.

          • cyanic

            Ripe with everything socially unacceptable today.

      • Val

        It’s like how street harassment is portrayed as harmelss and just boys being boys in films and such.

      • grownandsexy2

        I remember the soap opera that was Luke r@ping Laura and the happily ever after, ride off into the sunset life. R@pe culture and the romanticization of r@pe is prevalent
        everywhere in society, from fairy tales (Beauty and the Beast, Cinderella and Snow White comes to mind) to Tyler Perry’s Temptation and Spike Lee’s She’s Gotta Have It. How many of us were weaned off of fairy tales? Maybe that’s why some of our boys get this misguided notion that no means yes. That maybe if they try a little harder, put enough pressure on us, that chex will follow.

      • Blueberry01

        Some men don’t have role models at home in order to have these conservations…

    • -h.h.h.-

      i think we’re moving as a society from no=no, and anything outside of that is fair game, to ‘an enthusiastic yes” = yes, and anything outside of that is a no.

      • Yes – the enthusiastic consent model works much better! That way all the people who like to use coercion/force/intoxication/unconsciousness as reasons to call rape situations as chex can just take a long walk off a short pier.

        You’ve most likely seen the video below? It explains consent in visuals that even a child could understand.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

        • -h.h.h.-

          i have.

    • I think men know and play dumb.

      • Asiyah

        Honestly, that’s the only explanation I could come up with, because I can’t find a logical explanation as to why someone would think otherwise. Then again, as I said downthread, “cada cabeza es un mundo.”

      • Some women play coy and want you to take it further. These are the situations where the men have to say no. I’ve had a girl who wanted me to “take it”. I wasn’t taking any chances. An explicit yes is required.

        • Asiyah

          That’s why this conversation needs to involve EVERYBODY.

          I knew a woman who dated a man and they would recreate “r*pe fantasies.” I asked her if she didn’t find that weird. She was like “oh it’s just role playing.” I was like o…k…

          • You’d be surprised how many women are into that. It’s disturbing. Also, women need to treat the word rape more seriously. I can’t count how many times a women has told me to my face that she wanted to rape me.

            • Asiyah

              I’m not surprised at all. Lots of women who:
              1. are misogynists
              2. believe being masculine is being forceful
              3. are sick
              4. are victims of abuse themselves and know no other way

              • 5. Social conditioning states that a good girl/woman must preserve her status so chex is an action done upon her, not one she can willfully invite (hence every derogatory remark that insinuates a woman’s sexual activity or lack there of).

                • grownandsexy2

                  Back in the day, they were heavy into the good/girl, bad girl trope. There was no in-between. You were either a virgin saving it for marriage or you weren’t. Good girls kept their legs shut. If it was believed you were a virgin, you were lauded/celebrated even. If not, you were shamed, shunned and gossiped about. You were the “fast girl” who was too hot to trot. Our bodies were not our own. Men controlled the narrative to keep us in line. Fathers, brothers and male cousins protected/guarded the gates of a daughters chexuality even while they defiled the “fast girl.” She wasn’t, after all family was their thinking, and fair game.

                  I remember a guy who I just met and spent the day with told me he was glad I rebuffed his advances when he attempted to have chex with me because he wouldn’t have respected me. I told him I likely would not have respected him either for trying to have chex with me as we had just met. LOL. Needless to say, he got angry and the argument was on. Told me it was his duty to try and my duty to say no. I told him in no uncertain terms that my duty was only to myself, my pleasure and happiness and not him or anyone else trying to police my body.

                  • Blueberry01

                    Some men freely call women “hoes”, but would never ascribe that trait to themselves.

                    • grownandsexy2

                      All day, every day. They call us hoes and refer to themselves as men, still. I hate that double standard. That somehow it’s ok for them and not ok for us. Sometimes women are as bad as the men to line up and call a woman who is chexually free a hoe.

                  • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

                    Why would you not have respected his for trying to have z ex with you if you just met?

                    • grownandsexy2

                      It wasn’t that I really felt that way, but actually an attempt on my part to get him to at least acknowledge the double standard and have a discussion why he thought it was ok for him but not me. Didn’t quite go that way tho.

                    • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

                      Gotcha. That double standard is a monster…hard to unwind in rhetoric and in real life.

              • cyanic

                How about being dominated by a man is a valid form of s e x u a l fantasy?

                • Epsilonicus

                  Thats what I was thinking

                  • cyanic

                    S e x u a l fantasy should be open to all sorts of scenarios between consenting adults.

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Humans and chex has as much depth and breadth as any other phenomena that people experience.

                    • cyanic

                      Has there ever been a work of art that spoke to who you are s e x u a l l y? And no skin flicks don’t count. Although art house movies and premium cable programming are perfectly valid.

                    • kid video
                    • cyanic

                      Crash (1996 David Cronenberg movie), The Piano Teacher (French language movie), both of Steven Strainberg’s movies: Secretary and Fur.

                    • kid video

                      I forgot about Crash/Secretary.

                      Those movies have a cult following.

                    • cyanic

                      I’m drawn to the idiosyncratic stuff.

                    • kid video

                      Antichrist
                      Nymphomaniac
                      She Hate Me

                    • cyanic

                      I like She Hate Me. So over Von Trier.

            • Brass Tacks

              This is where the waters tend to get murky.

              I once was told by a chill and level headed female friend of mine, that she liked to be..um “taken” during chex. She gets off on the kink factor of that particular brand of dominance in bed.

              I also had an acquaintance? tell me (in front of others thank the lord) that I could um.. “pet her” her as long as I didn’t leave any bruises.

              I admit, these are outliers to the norm (what is considered “normal” chex these days anyways?).And writing this out and then actually reading it makes me think I may need to reevaluate some of my female friendships…Not that I will, imo…

              But yeah, yeah…It gets real outchea.

              • grownandsexy2

                This is more prevalent than people think. I can think of a slew of friends who like to be “taken.”

                • Brass Tacks

                  “This is more prevalent than people think. I can think of a slew of friends who like to be “taken.”

                  There is nothing wrong with a woman liking this brand of s ex (at all), but to what extent does anyone know how to measure that accordingly? If she does indeed like to be “taken”. Where does the line get drawn at because it would seem to be a very thin line.

          • NonyaB

            There is a reason that is one of the common questions on OKC: Creepy as it seems, some people are into that.

        • Freebird

          Men can still say no for their own safety…but this needs attention.

          • That’s what we have to do. It’s not worth the trouble of finding out you made a mistake. I’ve been clowned before because “You should’ve known I wanted it” situations. I’m like honey, I ain’t built for nobodys jail.

            • Freebird

              Your comment resonated with me and probably with a lot of men (few women too). Ive been in relationships were Ive had to talk about my discomfort with the take/beat that p ussy up narrative and I’ve been called lame. Im cool and secure with it…rather be seen as a lame and still be free.

              • Conrad Bess

                Men. Do better.

                Men. Do better.

                Men. Do better.

              • Blueberry01

                Wait, someone called you lame because it wasn’t comfortable?!? What in the entire fcuk…

            • naughtycorner

              As has been said here before ” It is better to be called soft than to be called the defendant “

        • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

          I’ve been there and (not) done that. This is real for those of us who are really concerned with these issues, but the crisis is generally about women who have been raped by dudes who know better and weren’t confused that what they were doing was wrong.

          Specifically to this D. Rose issues, it’s hard to keep sight of that when we get down to the specifics of this case, but it makes it hard for me to believe that what went down was consensual when so often dudes are down to exploit women (consciously or unconsciously).

    • raul

      You know that’s a fictional show right?

    • NonyaB

      If you recall the comments on the Nate Parker case, some were displaying ignorance/resistance to what consent is, even here on VSB. Hence why I suggested to Damon and Panama should have a post explicitly about consent but nada.

      • I (and several others I’m sure) probably remember all too well the infamous Damon post about rape that had several people stop checking for this blog for a while due to how it was written and the wall of pain in the comment section that was unleashed.

        • NonyaB

          Interesting that there was issue about how it was written because that was actually one of Damon’s drier posts, i.e. no hyperbole and rather matter-of-fact in tone. It described general turn of events, noted technicalities like how “Not guilty” doesn’t necessarily = “innocent”, Parker’s recent statements, and linked to some related docs and interview articles.

          Per comments, I think anyone should all be able to own their position on a topic and open to reassessing if necessary (e.g. in light of contradictory evidence or flaw in logic used). But you had noise like people forcefully arguing certain points even without reading case details and even after others pointed it out.

          Either way, I don’t see any of that as a reason to avoid discussing important topics.

          • The post I’m referring to is not the one Champ wrote about Nate Parker (that comment section even with the off comments was *tame* compared to some of the comments I’ve read in the past whenever this topic comes about). The post I’m referring to was written some years ago – Champ was responding to an article in Ebony that was talking about victim blaming in rape cases. The comments from the article are gone now, but I’ve linked the article below for you to check out; Champ added an addendum after the fact when everything had gone to h e l l.

            http://verysmartbrothas.com/rape-responsibility-and-the-fine-line-between-victim-blaming-and-common-sense/

  • HouseOfBonnets

    I can’t lie I was one of the ones questioning the victim when this first came out last year mainly because of the bit of evidence that came out and how the timeline didn’t match up but since the full story has come out it’s more of a combination of not being surprised and sadness that in 2016 consent is still lost on so many especially with some form of power…… I hope both knees give out over the season.

  • Vanity in Peril

    Sometimes I fear that were it not for their collective desires to have secks w us that men would bash our skulls in w no remourse.

    Do y’all even like us?

    (Not all men, bla bla, yada yada yada)

    • cyanic

      Men brutalize women regardless of their desire to sleep with them.

      • Vanity in Peril

        Right and sometimes it seems like their ability to sleep with us is the only thing keeping their thinly-veiled contempt and violence towards us from going all the way.

        • TheOtherJerome

          There are men who are like that. But not the majority. I think the biggest issue is male privilege and institutionalized misogyny.

          Institutionalized misogyny is like institutionalized racism IMO; so deeply ingrained you have to be somewhat “woke” to see it. And if you aren’t woke you will find yourself rationalizing and defending that which is indefensible in order to protect that status quo. So Black people are crazy enough to run TOWARDS bullets. And who a woman slept with 5 years ago is relevant to a case regarding consent today. Because #Logic.

          Men need to start having some fucking empathy for their fellow human beings

          • Vanity in Peril

            I hear you but it’s time that the collective group be held accountable for the actions they have collectively endorsed through their apathy.

            I think people have become accustomed to playing stupid so the status quo don’t change. But I feel it is an act all the same.

            • raul

              And how exactly does one hold a group collectively accountable?

        • grownandsexy2

          I believe you’re right. I just asked a male friend if he really liked women (and not just for the obvious reasons, the male gaze) or chex, would he even have time for us. He seemed perplexed. Didn’t know what to say. I honestly don’t think he would. And I can think of another friend who falls into that category and I’ve never asked him, but plan to. He loves to look, of course, and loves chex, so much so that he’s a serial cheater. Always on the hunt for the next great piece. He never seems to relate to women in any other way. And things he’s said in the past leads me to believe my thoughts are true.

      • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

        Men brutalize each other without the desire to sleep with them as well.

    • Brooklyn_Bruin

      * to stir the pot on this Wednesday afternoon?*

      *decisions, decisions*

    • Freebird

      You asked….I think.

      It’s not all men. But it is enough to make many women like yourself feel uncomfortable and angry.

      Im sorry you and others have to feel and live this way.

    • Double edged sword. Women do use the cat and mouse aspect for attention and such. Not to mention some of you actually like doing the do with us just as much. Edit [You all wouldn’t drive us nuts if we didn’t like you]

    • Question

      What I can’t figure out is the prevailing modes and norms that men follow. Like, how can ya’ll be throwing up pictures and sonnets to your black queens in one Instagram breath and then not speak out when this stuff happens with your peers in the next?

      Is guy code that deep, strong (and simultaneously weak) that you can’t speak out against bad behavior? Like the so called leaders of the NBA – why don’t yall have ANYTHING to say about this?

      • Brooklyn_Bruin

        The guys riding for Rose are not the same ones using that sweet Nubian princess game.

        – a guy who hollas at anything in a headwrap

    • CheGueverraWitBlingOn

      Wow. Sorry you feel this way.

  • There is no “art” versus the “person”when it comes to athletes. They don’t create anything. They are who they are.

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