Although it was a forgettable song (well, forgettable sans for Pharrell’s hook) on an even more forgettable album, the video for “Excuse Me Miss” remains underrated in regards to how much of an influence it had on pop culture.
There’s a scene in it that shows Jay-Z typing on a very cumbersome and very cool looking device that was far too big to be a Motorola two-way and far two small to be a laptop. This mysterious device was the first T-Mobile Sidekick, and it’s inherent coolness combined with the coolness of Jay-Z using one made it the “it” electronic device of the year. I bought one a week after seeing the video. (And, because of T-Mobile’s draconian termination fee and contracts, I hold the dubious distinction of being the only person on Earth to own a Sidekick in 2002 and in 2009)
If you remember, at that time cell phones were getting smaller and smaller — a point parodied in this hilarious SNL skit. The Sidekick was the first phone to start the shift back to big  — leading to today’s behemoths — and Jay-Z deserves (at least) partial credit for spearheading that trend.
I’m bringing this up because, regardless of how you feel about Jay-Z the artist/former drug dealer/freemason/”business, man” you can’t deny the fact that he’s wielded a major influence on Black culture in the last 15 years. If the Sidekick story isn’t proof enough for you, think about this: Remember how cats used to spend hundreds of dollars on throwback sports jerseys; rocking them to night clubs, weddings, proms, and funerals and sh*t? Jay-Z managed to pretty much dead that trend with half of a bar .
“I don’t rock jerseys, I’m 30 plus…”
Now, unless you’ve been hiding in James Harden’s beard over the past week, you’ve undoubtedly heard that Jay-Z came out in support of same-sex marriage. I’m not going to spend today breaking down the apparent hypocrisy and lack of sincerity of someone who has repeatedly used the word “faggot” in his work denouncing people who oppose gay marriage. Whether this is a political move to impress (and keep) his high society friends is not my concern.
What I am concerned about, though, is whether Hov has the type of pull to change the attitude of what is arguably the only billion-dollar entity in the world where it’s not just ok to be violently homophobic, it’s encouraged: Hip-Hop. (And yes, today, in 2012, Hip-Hop/Rap is more violently and vehemently homophobic than any other major “thing” you can possibly name. Nothing else beats us it right now.)
I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention that Hova isn’t the first prominent Hip-Hop artist to start the homophobia is bad train. Both KRS-One and Chuck D have spoken out against it, and Drake’s entire career seems to be a pro-gay PSA. Eminem’s Grammy performance with Elton John still remains the awkwardest five minutes of TV I’ve ever seen.
Also, Jay’s protege has done more to spearhead this current era of skinny-jeaned Hip-Hop androgyny we live in than any other person, and the most popular female rapper ever has cultivated a persona that’s somehow asexual, bisexual, and hyperheterosexual all at the same time.
Basically, while I won’t go as far as to say that hip-hop was already becoming more gay friendly before Jay-Z’s statement, it does seem like it’s been progressively less antagonistic towards homosexuality. Will Jay-Z’s considerable voice and presence be enough to help hip-hop evolve past accepted homophobia? I don’t know. I do know that the fact that I’m somehow still tied into my T-Mobile contract means I wouldn’t bet against it happening.
—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)
I dunno… I think it MAY have some effect, but there will still be those who claim that “real hip hop” is gutter, for the streets, talking about the struggle, whatever, and will probably still be homophobic. It will be interesting to see how the game evolves though, especially with hip hop becoming less about violence and fking the po-lease, and more about expressing your feelings. I.E. Marvin’s Room. Hey… It’s happening…
Wait a cotton picking minute… Am I first?! With a real arse response as opposed to just saying “first!”?!
What. The. Fk?!
Congratulations. LOL *hands Meisarebal 2 cookies: 1 for actually being first and the other for actually commenting on the post.*
SMH stall of these cookies being handed out lately. Steve Harvey would not be pleased.
You’re just jealous. I’ve been after her cookies for the longest time. I’m only now finally seeing some just rewards.
“It will be interesting to see how the game evolves though, especially with hip hop becoming less about violence and fking the po-lease, and more about expressing your feelings. I.E. Marvin’s Room. Hey… It’s happening…”
I hope not. Thanks to Aubrey, this will become one more trend in hip hop that I will sit out.
” It will be interesting to see how the game evolves though, especially with hip hop becoming less about violence and fking the po-lease, and more about expressing your feelings. I.E. Marvin’s Room. Hey… It’s happening…”
perhaps the changes hip-hop makes will be largely regional, at least at first. it seems like the midwest is where are the “progressive” hiphop is being made today
Speaking up in support of gay marriage is one thing. How about taking the stage with, signing and/or promoting an openly gay hip hop artist?
Baby steps.
If I’m not mistaken, not too long ago Kanye himself said the opposite of hip hop is gay. Shrug.
However, Eminem DID share the stage with perhaps the gayest performer out there. So…
Eminem and Elton white ‘tho
So? For as homophobic as we like to believe the “black community” is, let’s not pretend that there is not a very large white community out there that is anti-gay.
Either way, I brought it up because I don’t think any rapper has made a bigger impact on the gay community as Eminem has. I don’t recall them protesting against Jay Z, or DMX (granted his lyrics are awfully gay). So if Eminem can eventually perform and hug Elton, then hey.
And I say all that, whilst acknowledging that I’m indifferent to gay support.
“How about taking the stage with, signing and/or promoting an openly gay hip hop artist?”
So true! There is also a sense of non-chalance about it. Like “they can do what ever cuz it dont faze me”. It’s like a half-assed thing. *kanye shrug*
Cosign
I don’t think gay rights (or most rights for that matter) concern people until it is closer to home. Let Solange’s son come out as being homosexual and I could totally see Jay being at the forefront of anti-bullying and gay rights advocacy.
“How about taking the stage with, signing and/or promoting an openly gay hip hop artist?”
I’d be surprised if he had not already inadvertently done this.
“How about taking the stage with, signing and/or promoting an openly gay hip hop artist?”
male or female?
Pretty sure a male gay artist would make a bigger impact. Not sure how I feel about that, but in a male-dominated culture such as hip-hop (where two girls kissing is seen as sexy and two males… not so much), a gay male hip-hop artist would make a greater dent, most definitely.
Da Brat is about as openly gay as hip-hop has gotten. Any new openly ay artist would probably be a butch lesbian, since hip-hop is so masculine.
Da brat is gay?? LOL If I find out one more GD person is gay…
Wait, you didnt know? How could you not know. At one point she tried to girl it up a bit (circa What Do You Like), but it didnt last.
So I can care less if Jay say it, it’s too political when Jay say it – Pusha T
Of zero relevance.
And the church said Amen
Exactamundo!!!
so a statement said by one of the most influential people in the country has zero relevance?
Yes. Everyone is aware Jay-Z is a rapping politician. It’s not going to change anything and he’s not going to make any moves to make sure any segment of the gay community feels safe/more included in hip hop. Even his wife who’s choreography and videos are ripped off from gay men doesn’t even explicitly acknowledge her gay male fanbase and it would actually be advantageous for her to do so.
“Even his wife who’s choreography and videos are ripped off from gay men doesn’t even explicitly acknowledge her gay male fanbase and it would actually be advantageous for her to do so.”
I’m curious. Advantageous in what way? Her stans are already firmly in her corner as firm can get, so if she openly acknowledged her gay male fanbase that would be advantageous because they’d… love her more than they already do?
Exactly…its like stating the obvious.
*enters in “SINGLE LADIES” video that ole boy re-did in her honor*
LOL, it’d be like acknowledging the sky for being blue. That could be part of the reason Jay-Z came out on this at all.
Gay magazine endorsements and maybe someone teaching her to get her own style like her baby sis…
I doubt the deep seeded homophobia within the hip-hop community will be swayed much due to his statement. First he’s all “anti-bish”and now he doesn’t care about what homosexuals do behind their little closet doors. Yea, I don’t really see droves of the hip-hop community jumping on either bandwagon he’s steering but kudos to him for his efforts
baby steps and shit
I personally don’t think that Hip-Hop will grow to embrace Homosexuality anytime soon.
I do however think that Jay’s comments will open the door for discussions on Homosexuality in Hip-Hop and could even open the doors to mainstream exposure for rappers like Solomon and Bry’Nt.
a rapper with an apostrophe in the middle of his name needs no exposure…gay or not…
“a rapper with an apostrophe in the middle of his name needs no exposure…gay or not…”
LOL
LMFAO
Yeah, I’m errant apostrophe racist.
LOL!
FAIL!
It’s a hyphen.
Kanye tried to open the door to this conversation years ago…the hip hop community called him gay and shut the door right back
This is very true. But I personally think that people (within and not in the rap game) value Jay’s opinion over Ye’s. Ye’s a musical genius but his antics have made many give him a serious side eye.
True, and when the young Jedi realizes the power he has over the master and the multitudes…he’ll get the respect and attention he craves so desperately
BOL! When did that happen?
For your reference purposes:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2005-08-18-kanye-west_x.htm
Nope. He didn’t say it in a song. All of your references were from songs. But you’re talking about a statement that was made. Just sayin
good point
Oooh, that’s totally a good point. A song would definitely make a huger impact.
+1.5
Ice Cube also said he was okay with gay marriage http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/05/ice_cube_says_hes_cool_with_gay_marriage.html *kanye shrug*
would it be cynical to chalk it up to another guy just not wanting to offend his new, hollywood friends?
“…and Drake’s entire career seems to be a pro-gay PSA. ” I almost spit out my dam coconut water.
This ninja had Cristal almost bankrupt (exaggeration) with one gesture in his ‘Show Me What You Got” vid. But thats champagne we talkin. Gay rights…that is a really hard call to make. (off topic) BUT he could have ppl concerned with also important stuff such as you know like edumacation and business ownership and community involvement. Jay-Z can wield that type of power so i dunno (wishful thinkin). I feel either way everything will work out for the gays.
“I feel either way everything will work out for the gays.”
me too, actually. i admire their spirit and spunk and shit
(If I said things like “pause,” I would say pause after what I just said. i don’t though, so I wont)
I remember when Hip Hip-Rap was based on either Music/Dance or speaking about Black Life in the Inner City/Projects/Hood. Today’s Hip Hop-Rap is full of exaggeration about $,$$$,$$$ an Artist DOESN’T HAVE yet, Cars they Rent for videos, Mansions they Also Lease for videos, the # of women they allegedly slept with who are supposed to be on the same sexual level as any Porn Star, and other misguided aspects of what Being Black is supposed to be (shooting to settle beef instead of talking towards solutions or Fighting with Fist [like Men], Stop Snitching [unless a Person's Loved One is the Victim], etc).
Times are changing, and Rap can’t stay popular by alienating everybody, including their clientele and fans. While I personally don’t view Jay as My Role Model, he HAS Evolved and Grown as a Man and as a Brand. When you deal with Powerful People who also dabble in Politics, you operate and Live by Their Rules.
He is a “grown up” now. I’m guessing he’s getting different types of questions asked of him than, say, a Meek Mills. Was he simply asked his position on gay marriage or did he hold a press conference or something? He’s not a conservative anyway; further alienating gay people is of no benefit to him whatsoever.
“I remember when Hip Hip-Rap was based on either Music/Dance or speaking about Black Life in the Inner City/Projects/Hood. Today’s Hip Hop-Rap is full of exaggeration about $,$$$,$$$ an Artist DOESN’T HAVE yet, Cars they Rent for videos, Mansions they Also Lease for videos, the # of women they allegedly slept with who are supposed to be on the same sexual level as any Porn Star, and other misguided aspects of what Being Black is supposed to be (shooting to settle beef instead of talking towards solutions or Fighting with Fist [like Men], Stop Snitching [unless a Person's Loved One is the Victim], et”
rap has always been about bragging, though. it’s just that now rappers brag about different stuff
Reminds me of The Boondocks Gangstalicious episode when Riley catches his fav rapper kissing another dude and says ewww Y’all NInJAs is G@Y!”Random, but out of curiosity will Queen Latifah, Missy, and now Raven (twitter rumor) announce themselves or do they have to?
I thought that Queen Latifah all ready had come out the closet with those pictures with her and her lover.
Queen Latifah is the grand marshal of a gay pride event this weekend. We’ll see if she makes any announcements
I was wondering if she ever officially came out and said she was gay…did Missy ever come out?
“I was wondering if she ever officially came out and said she was gay…did Missy ever come out?”
i dont think so
@WIP: No… not that she needs too. The girl is as flaming as Queen Latifah in “Chicago”.
When was the last time that heffa rapped? She ‘on count!
*about to listen to “The Pros” and “Wrath of My Madness”*
But does anyone actually care if female rappers are gay? Really. I mean other than lesbians who will see it as affirming. Its almost the same as a male ballet dancer coming out of the closet. Big whoop.
Nope, I mentioned this down thread. Modern hip-hop is quite pro lesb!ian.
One of the Azealia’s is openly bi-sexual right?
exactly! the women are expected to be hard or oversexualized. Just saying a “gay rapper” won’t be a huge concern (we know they exist), the issue will be when Jay is faced with “doin’ a collabo” w/a ATL Derek J-type rapper in 6in heels. It would have to be w/someone who’s already Ultra~ in their own right or allow the song to blow up first.
“But does anyone actually care if female rappers are gay?”
good point
Labor Day weekend, Jay-Z is hosting a music festival in Philly at $99 for 2 days. If there are queer artists performing as head lining acts, then he’s support of gay marriage could make homophobia a serious negative in Hip Hop from now on. I’m not holding my breath for such a thing to happen but who knows…
would that be a bad business decision? not because he’s featuring gays, but because i can’t think of any Black queer artists/groups who could headline a show. I could be wrong, though. my knowledge of gay hip-hop isn’t very deep and shit
Is it ok to use the term queer?
As my lesbian best explained it me, queer is ok when addressing those of that life as a group without distinguishing between genders. For some gay=male, lesbian=female & queer would be anyone having a sexual preference to the same sex.
Transgendered could be defined as queer depending on the context as speaking on the group but since we, individually, disagreed on this idea, I don’t know. Since I’m team hetero, I usually ask the queer folk I know what they want to be called when talking about same sex issues & they prefer queer. Some may not but it never hurts to ask.
There’s actually a lot of queer rap acts I’m finding out. Big Freedia, Mid Korona, Mz Jobs, Thee Satisfaction, Las Kredes, Skim, Collin Clay of Jah-list is was given to me by my lesbian best friend a few months ago to expand my music knowledge. I’ll admit I haven’t heard all of their.music but what I’ve listened to so far is pretty good. Nice flow, lyrics & good beat.
That being said, if artists are good enough to move the crowd enough that their records sell, Jay-Z will have then in the line up. The key here is getting acts that can cross over from queer audiences to straight without being alienating either group. If he gets some unknowns & they win over the crowd then he’ll be seen as spearheading the queer hip hop crossover, making more money. If he gets some so act that gets everyone to clap but no real records sells, he’ll get a pat on the back for trying & still make money.
Hip-hop is a young man’s game…Jay-Z supporting gay marriage as a rapper shows that his career has jumped the shark…just as Ice Cube graces the boob tube arguing with a beer to determine who is the “coldest”.
The young bucks who are downloading the most music these days don’t give a damn about what they think.
You can’t really say that Jay’s career has jumped the shark. Dude’s almost 50, and he’s still relevant THAT IS CRAZY. No one has done it that long. He’s older, more mature… he has political connections now. Him coming out in support of gay marriage can’t be brought up as a negative regarding his career. Now if he made a lame-a$$ song about gay-marriage that would DEFINITELY qualify as jumping the shark. I understand if you don’t agree but I don’t see how this qualifies as the end of his career.
An almost 50 year old rapper with political connections…as a matter of fag, uh, fact, (Pardon my H-town dialect) that should just about signify that his career is on the downward slope.
You say “downward slope” I say its more like a plateau. I think you misunderstand the term “jumping the shark” though.
@Jay: I understand the meaning perfectly…the decline begins…Just like when Eazy gave money to the Republicans as a publicity stunt…Just like when Big Daddy Kane posed naked…
Outta curiosity, why is hip-hop the only genre of music where a performer’s stock declines with age?
Hell, rockers be selling out international arenas when they are 50 plus. As do a lotta R&B, country, Techno acts…. even after they have stopped creating new material.
Have always wondered why hip-hop acts tend to fizzle out around 30, bunless they venture into other arenas, IE: Will Smith and Latifah
It just don’t look good on an old guy. This coming from an old guy. Think of it like boxing. Every now and then a few old starts break through (Foreman, Hopkins). But for the most part they just look old, tired, and stupid when they stay too long. I say 35 should be the mandatory retirement age for rappers, you hear me Snoop!
2 CHAIIIINZ is 36 years old.
Are you kidding me?
“But for the most part they just look old, tired, and stupid when they stay too long.”
Funny that no one says that about De La Soul, MF Doom, GZA, Masta Ace and Ghostface- and all of them are well into their 40′s.
@PA
i know right?-De la soul comin to the chi on the 25th and i’m going…
but then again i’m an old nugga too so…… yeah…
Dela puts on a great show. You’ll love that ish.
These guys have a very distinct following. I wouldn’t say that they are mainstream. Are they? Correct me if i am wrong.
“But for the most part they just look old, tired, and stupid when they stay too long.â€
Funny that no one says that about De La Soul, MF Doom, GZA, Masta Ace and Ghostface- and all of them are well into their 40′s.”
yeah, but none of those cats are anywhere near as popular as they were when younger, which is the point he was trying to get at. hip-hop fans are very fickle about age
“Outta curiosity, why is hip-hop the only genre of music where a performer’s stock declines with age?”
Good question. I think it’s probably a combination of the fickleness (is that a word?) of hip hop fans, and the fact that it’s just not a good look for some old dude to rap about “the streets”. It makes you wonder though if Biggie and Pac would still be relevant if they were around today.
Rap about more than street life then and give a hella good show. I can definitely see artists like Andre 3000 and Kanye West touring in their old age.
Agreed on these two.
good music is timless….
besides if you got thirty and forty somethings that grew up on hip hop and still love it. if you’re an old artist but still can burn a mic…imma support
de la comin to chicago imma go
nas and dmx comin to detroit in june and imma go and i bet they gonna put on a show.
if outkast, rakim, deven tha dude, a tribe called quest, wu tang, dr dre & snoop…ever decide to put out another album…imma support..unless they’re trynna do young nigglit stuff….
like wearin skinny jeans
Snoop??? He ain’t rapped about anything in at least 10 years.
I said dre AND snoop.
i havn’t liked any solo album snoop has done since doggie style…but get him and dre together..and them boys can make magic
But RWC said it best below. I feel like most people grow out of hip hop. Even Panama said it in his post last week about how he just can’t get down with some of the songs anymore.
Though, i will admit that i am not a hip hop head and the only knowledge i have on it is what i hear on the radio. Honestly, i don’t know many hip hop heads that are women when i come to think about it.
I beg to differ…
“It makes you wonder though if Biggie and Pac would still be relevant if they were around today.”
shit, i wonder if they’d still be relevant if they both managed to live three more years. who knows whether or not they would have fallen off
Outta curiosity, why is hip-hop the only genre of music where a performer’s stock declines with age?
It is weird. I wonder if 30 years from now will rap have someone with the status of Jagger. Hip hop’s memory is short when it comes to the mainstream but there are older rappers like folks have mentioned but they don’t have a large rah-rah factor behind them. Jay-Z is an oddity in that way.
*side note* I’m 33 and when I go to shows with 40 year old rappers I feel strangely at home. #Imold
I really am getting old. I won’t be 33 for another few weeks.
Rap music tends to have immature themes; after a certain age you can’t rap about being a “pu$$y popper” and look at yourself in the mirror.
I literally just posted this. Get out of my head WIP!!!
On the immature themes you are exactly right. That P-popper comment just made me think of a rap version of Marvin Sease (R.I.P) making nasty rap songs at 55 years old.
You know it’s hard to still be a P*ssy Popper (realistically) and have a family/raise kids, and mow the lawn, own real sh*t, etc and be responsible…I think someone already mentioned Snoop’s challenges…it just looks crazy
T.I. is towing the line himself.
Somehow it worked wonders for Luke Campbell and Too Short.
Rap to me just seems so immature. I think that is why i couldn’t go to a concert with a 50 yr old rapper and why when i hear that Nicki Minaj will be 30 this year i give a hard side eye. I have just never taken rap seriously to think about people still rapping into their 40s and 50s the way I do when i listen to R&B and Rock. Someone said it below that Kanye West and Andre 3000 will probably still be performing into their 40s and possibly their 50s. I think that’s b/c, as the person stated, they talk about more than just hustling the streets.
If you are in your 30s and you still talk about the streets or being in some d$mn trap, i need for you to grow up.
Now that i think about it, this is the reason why i only listen to rap for the beats. As a whole (speaking about mainstream rap) there is no evolution in the content. The same crap they were saying when i was in high school is the EXACT same thing they are talking about now.
Meanwhile, Beyonce is in her 30′s still acting as if she’s 18…but no one wants to talk about that…
You think so? I don’t. Beyonce’s music has evolved. You can clearly hear it from her first solo album to now. I also don’t think that she acts 18. She acts like a grown woman who keeps her private life…well private. Can’t agree with you on this one bit.
In fact, i would say that she is one of the few artists that actually has decided that she wants to be in the game for a long while and is taking the steps to do so. She wants to be an icon (Madonna, Sher, Bruce, Sade, Janet, etc.).
She still has not evolved musically or chronologically.
We’ll agree to disagree. When she first came out she was all about the club. Then she had some songs about heart break. Then the i am all woman. Now it’s about being in a relationship and in love.
Rap has evolved from smacking h0es to smacking b!ches to busting nuts to shooting to drug dealing. Oh wait…no, they have been talking about that for at least the past 20 yrs.
“love on top” is the best song ever made!!!!!!!!!
Stop playing Champ, LMAO!!
I sense the sarcasm but 20 yrs from now at one of her sold out concerts, people will be singing every single word. Can’t say the same for any hip hop act that is popular now.
you know, i’m actually kind of serious about “love on top.” is it the best song ever made? no. is it one of the best songs ive heard in the last several years? yes.
Oh God how I loathe that song. It’s so manic and screechy…sounds like the soundtrack to a trippy circus-themed nightmare.
IMO, that says a lot about hip hop. With rock, the lyrical content fits a range of life experiences…real love, heart break, world events, and ratchet stuff.
However, hip-hop tends to be limited (mostly) to ish young angsty insecure sophomoric dudes say and care about. Thus, a rapper can age-out of hip-hop. If hip-hop got more seriously political (like folk-rock did during the Vietnam war era) then older guys would definitely have a place in it.
It’s a shame that the Occupy movement didn’t inspire a modern Woodstock.
“However, hip-hop tends to be limited (mostly) to ish young angsty insecure sophomoric dudes say and care about. Thus, a rapper can age-out of hip-hop.” And by age out, we hope they actually grow up.
Maybe it did… Jay did make shirts about it and seemed to have a lot to say about it.
And he did just announce the “Made It In America” festival which could be his own answer to Occupy? Can’t find a job? Do what I did and make your own. Do what Bill Gates did. Got to a SBA conference, get funding, and get it popping.
But I could be reading way into this. Who knows what inspired all of it.
“Dude’s almost 50 and he’s still relevant”
According to the Google he’s only 42. Is this right?? Does seem like he should be older. But, I think he is about 10 yrs older than Bey.
Why y’all keep trying to make Jay-Z so old?! LOL
I’m just gonna say that Snoop is about the same age as Jay and is still regularly featured on new music…. I don’t know why people don’t recognize him for having a hip hop career for as long as he has. When West coast popularity died down he stayed relevant.
Because his recent raps are straight garbage. Do I own a recent album of his- no. This is only from memory of verses I’ve heard from Snoop recently. Maybe his albums are crazy- I’ll let y’all tell it. He rarely even spits a good line these days. I can’t recognize that.
His albums sell though. If the reason for the season is to sell records, well then Snoop does just that.
I don’t get it… Jay Z just sold out stadiums only last Fall. And he didn’t do a publicity stunt or pose naked. He stated an opinion about a hotly contested socio-political topic that affects the lives of millions.
I wouldn’t call that a downward slope or a plateau. More of a paradigm shift.
Hip hop is usually about ultra male/macho bravado and homosexuality is the antithesis of that. It is all about entertainment and it is most potent when it at least “feels” like its coming straight from the hip. Raw, real, uncut, and uncensored is what hip hop attempts/pretends to embody. Tact, decency, tolerance don’t fit into that. Not saying that its right but that’s just what it is. Rappers today are mostly just kids out there looking to get money/p*ssy/f*cked up… in that order. They aren’t thinking about whose feelings they may hurt when they are writing the bullsh*t that they come up with. Hip hop is a caricature. Its not reality. I don’t think that most people that listen to hip hop REALLY realize the truth of that until their mid-20′s.
Maybe mature, responsible rappers like Jay-z, that have social/political pull can be held to some accountability because they have something to lose, but the younger rappers… you have to let that happen naturally, and I think that it is. If you try to FORCE them to drop the homophobia they will only derive more power by bucking up against it. Hip hop is a young mans game and in hip hop you are rewarded for giving the least f*cks.
yessir. I co-sign that…
+2
I agree that hip hop is hyper male bravado at it’s roots but hyper male can be hyper sexualized male in an instant per the “homo-thug” persona, gay underground hip hop clubs, jail culture etc. Truth is, rappers have paying gay fans and are subject to good press, publicist, and record sales. Generationally, so many people interact with more openly gay people, so it is less hidden with less stigma in some circunstances. You got Omar from the Wire, folk in college, folk in church, folk in the hood where it is less taboo in some circles. Some are still homophobic, but the tide is changing where people are judged more by who they are, than who they sleep with. Working at my alma mater I have witnessed that generatuonal shift first hand.
I’d also wager dancehall may compete and win against hip hop as the most homophobic.
*generational
Word. Not to give hip-hop a pass for homophobia, but Dancehall vs. Hip-Hop in terms of homophobia is like a December college basketball money game: we already know the winner, it’s just a question of how much.
True talk. And have you seen how Jamaicans dress?
@Meisarebel- good point. The irony in the way they dress (and even some of their dancing) and the way they feel about “gayness” does NOT go unnoticed by black Americans (the ones I know at least)
Huge lol!
“I’d also wager dancehall may compete and win against hip hop as the most homophobic.”
i’d agree with that. but, i still consider it to be a niche genre
“Hip hop is usually about ultra male/macho bravado and homosexuality is the antithesis of that.”
Hio hop really seems that way, until you listen closely. Why are hip hop artists always talking about having nothing but love for their boys and then calling out women as ho*s and bit*hes? Why is prison culture so much apart of hip hop? Why is a gay prison fashion statement the most recognized part of hip hop fashion? Why are rappers so into haute couture fashion? That’s an industry dominated by gay men.
Hip hop at its core is as homoerotic and tied to gay culture as it comes. And I think the reason so many hip hop artists express bigotry toward gay people is they don’t want the masses to see how much homosexuality has become engrained in hip hop.
“Hip hop at its core is as homoerotic and tied to gay culture as it comes.”
Hmm, never thought about it that way before, but I think you’re onto something Val.
I think that’s a fair argument. The bros-over-h0s mentality take to extreme levels, never trusting women, taking care of your friends over everything else- I’ve heard it. although I’ve heard just as much of the “don’t trust anyone” be by yourself mantra as well.
I think it’s kind of funny and interesting how, so far, only men are disagreeing with Val while women agree.
The more I think about it, the more I see it. Especially the graphic description of s.e.x. and s.e.x.ual acts. Who’s editing the stuff- probably men. At least half the audience is men- who you singing that to? I’ve often wondered how some of the lyrics could be uttered with a straight face.
I find that interesting to, Aly. I don’t know what it means, but it’s interesting.
I call partial shenanigans on that argument. I’ve heard it before, and yes, there are some elements of homoeroticism in hip-hop. But there are also plenty of artists that hate on everyone, male or female. And there are artists that shout out women, even without necessarily being positive, and will hate on dudes. Simply put, hip-hop is representative of the human condition. Some gay people, some nihilists, some who got love for women, some who think of women as objects. It cuts in all directions.
^^^This right here!!!
(And you actually have to be a fan of hip hop to understand that, by the way…)
+2 I’m not on the “ppl that are homophobic are secretly gay” train. It’s definitely true for some, but for the most part that ish is misplaced anger/aggression and a sad reach for identity in a world that’s done all it can to diminish black folks’ identity. Uniting against a common enemy is the oldest and cheapest tactic to establish unity that humans know.
I actually agree with you Val.
One of the most profound (and funniest) statements I have ever heard that was a commentary on hip hop fashion, was a woman saying she hated seeing men with their pants around their ass as looked like they missed being butt-f*cked in prison.
That style of dress is for easy access in the prison system.
@A Woman’s Eyes
I’m amazed at how many people ignore that. I mean it’s a gay style. So if they are wearing a gay style what does that say?
@ val-
i think i agree…
rap culture nowadays is basically influenced by that prison culture. the whole pants saggin thing is some gay ish that started and continues in prison.
“Why are hip hop artists always talking about having nothing but love for their boys and then calling out women as ho*s and bit*hes? Why is prison culture so much apart of hip hop? Why is a gay prison fashion statement the most recognized part of hip hop fashion? Why are rappers so into haute couture fashion? That’s an industry dominated by gay men”
things that make you say “hmmm”
Word. I remember when 2 Live Crew started getting in trouble with the Feds for their records. Looking back with adult eyes, it seems like for the next few years after that, there was a “Can you top this?!” mindset with regard to having women shaking their ass. While it didn’t completely invent the video hoochie, it definitely pushed it to evolve into what it is today. Be carefully what you tell people what to do, because in hip-hop, you’ll get the opposite by the truckload.
why can’t I just click the like button next to this comment to +1-the technology is there…
Rap is about rebellion. That will never, ever go out of style. Especially among those who consume music the most. The young. I anticipate the more people feel pressured by the establishment to fall into line wrt gay issues, the more anti gay rhetoric will become a theme of rebellion.
All I know is, if hip hop artists want to keep branching out into different industries, like liquor or fashion (ESPECIALLY fashion) the homophobia will just have to go. You cannot navigate your way around gayness in these businesses. And coming from a dance background, I can say with total confidence, any hip hop artist who uses dancers in his stage act must be ok with homosexuality. (Btw, the premier hip hop choreographer of the world right now is a gay jew. Brian Friedman, you go boy.)
Agreed!
“And coming from a dance background, I can say with total confidence, any hip hop artist who uses dancers in his stage act must be ok with homosexuality.”
Lies! Lies! Lies! Big Daddy Kane had dancers and he clearly stated on one of his albums that he was “anti-faggot”.
Ok, Big Daddy Kane hates the gays.
I guess I should have said any artist touring presently, using todays pool of current working dancers.
Name one hip hop artist within the last twenty years to have dancers with them frequently. I have been following hip hop for a long ass time and I still can’t find any.
Puff Daddy. Missy Elliot. There are more, I’m having a hard time thinking on the spot. I do see what you’re saying.. Most of them don’t. These days dancers are primarily working with hip hop influenced r&b.
“Puff and missy were pop”
Ok.
Jay -z is ugly.
I am the biggest Jay-z stan ever but that is one fact that I will never… EVER argue. He has always been hurt up from the shirt up.
*just laughed myself into my grave*
Remember me like John Lennon
Ya’ll need to back up off a Camel…all that ugly and he still get the bootylicious all the men’s and them wanted.
*Beyonce still probably wakes up and scream at the sight of him EVERYDAY*
BOL! He’s an average looking guy.
*side eye*
Lmfao @ the side eye! Camel has an interesting face…I’ll leave it at that lol
Not as interesting as Primo’s- dude looks like an Ewok! LMAO!!!
Evidence please.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=554&q=dj+premier&gbv=2&oq=dj+premier&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=img.12…0.0.0.5580.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0…0.0.Qq1f6f2EvgM
The following spokesperson for Jay-Z is terribly offended by your brash statement:
http://bit.ly/fPIS4
Photography isn’t always very kind to Jay. In some photos, he is smiling and looking like a handsome average dude. In others, his facial expression and the lighting make him look like a leather bag. I wonder what he looks like in person, though.
Hmmm…I don’t know. Is Jay going to follow this up with a 10 city ‘sensitivity training’ tour for young cats trying to get in the hip hop game? There are some deeeepp seated issues about homosexuality, manhood, etc., that don’t get changed just because your mamas favorite rapper came out in support of marriage equality. What difference does his announcemen make if the first insult thrown to challenge a dudes manhood will still be f****t?
baby steps
i don’t think him coming out in support of equal gay rights will make that much of a difference. maybe 5-10 years ago but now? naw. the hip hop culture that needs to be influenced aren’t really influenced like that by jay anymore. they’re too busy listening to rick ross and future.
*yells ignorantly at the top her lungs* Ringgggggg ringgggggg ringgggggggggggggg!!!!
You’re right, I honestly think my generation is far too caught up in “snapbacks & tattoos” to really give Jay’s musings on politics any mind at all.
Ring Ring is catchy as a muh…. but yeah you’re right the snapback and tattoo generation aint paying Jay too much mind unless its not a punchline about money that they know damn well they cant relate to
Ring Ring is my sh*t. Y’all can judge me all u want (yeah I said it) lol
first time i heard that snapbacks and tattoos song i shook my head. i’ve officially reached old man status because i look at a lot of new songs with disdain.
I know none of these songs or references. I have reached old lady status.
I replace the hook with random objects according to my mood. For example: Hot combs and mouse traps. I just need a platform and a ratchet group of followers for the world to hear my genius
“the hip hop culture that needs to be influenced aren’t really influenced like that by jay anymore. they’re too busy listening to rick ross and future.”
it almost feels as if hiphop artists are either moving to the far right (ross, future, etc) or the far left. just like the rest of the country, i guess
Jay – Z has become the White man’s idiot servant in recent years. He got that way by using the “N” word and calling Black women “b*tches” and “ho*s” and making a fortune doing so. Now to stay in their good graces he says he supports same gender marriage. But has he come out against hip hop’s vicious and relentless attacks on Black women? Of course not because his White handlers don’t give a damn about Black women.
Jay – Z has become nothing more than the male version of Oprah.
^This. Times a thousand
Hell F-u-cking yeah sista !!!! I will go further by saying Jay z is the ghetto kid who never imagined that he would be having lunch with billionaires one day and rubbing elbows with people who would normally cross to the other side of the street upon spottting him if it wasnt for his millionsand his relative fame.Now that he got there, he’s willing to do and say anything to keep running in those circles. F-u-c-k him!
You need to listen to reasonable doubt and the blueprint, Shawn Carter always believed in becoming rich and wealthy, it was the plan since the beginning…
“always knew it’d be like this when I was in the kitchen”
LOL
Can’t hate on the guy for wanting to maintain his wealth, especially when he came from nothing. Hell, I’m pretty sure if we got to that level we will all be trying our best to maintain that lifestyle.
Just sayin.
Criticism and hating are two different things.
Oh, you’re very right. But “Fk him” can’t really be classified as criticism, now can it?
@ meisarebel- F*ck him can be classified as a sentiment or a conclusion based on opinion. At least she explained why she felt that way in a semi-objective way no?
speak on it, Val.
“Jay – Z has become the White man’s idiot servant in recent years”
tell us how you really feel
Translation: Jay-Z has become an even MORE successful business man in recent years.
Thank you! There are a lot of filthy rich and successful people that don’t actually give a damn about Black women that are not white.
Lolwut?!
Follow up question to Champ’s questions: Which do you think will happen first in hiphop, a significant decrease in the amount of homophobia, or a significant decrease in the amount of misogyny?
Neither.
I’d wager homophobia goes out of style first. Out of the 2 groups, the gay community is the only one doing any sort of organized large scale political lobbying and public outreach to fight for their rights.
Misogyny – especially as it involves black women in hip hop, will be here for quite a while. Sadly.
I’m still learning a lot about American culture, but to my eyes, neither the Civil Rights Movement nor the Feminist Movement were actively considering or conscious of the needs of black women in the struggle for political/economic equality. Until some specific and coordinated set of events happens to address this, misogyny will continue to flourish.
significant decrease in homophobia …because hip hop still roots for men over women.
“Which do you think will happen first in hiphop, a significant decrease in the amount of homophobia, or a significant decrease in the amount of misogyny?”
The fact that these two co-exist is interesting on SO many levels. Like, ya’ll ‘fraid of being labeled gay, but you HATE the very beings that doesn’t make you gay? Eaux.
They are afraid of gayness and afraid of being vulnerable to women, at the same d@mn time.
All of it is rooted in simp fear*
*(c) Wild Cougar
“Which do you think will happen first in hiphop, a significant decrease in the amount of homophobia, or a significant decrease in the amount of misogyny?”
homophobia. gay dudes buy alot of rap too. buying power is far more powerful and influential than marching and protesting.
since males are the ones who primarily buys rap albums. it will be male centirc. it will cater to male machismo and fantasy…just like comic books.
I think Jay is not going to cause any change in attitudes. The attitudes people hold about homosexuality are not ones that their favorite artist or the most influential celebrity can sway them out of. People need explanations and reasons before they adopt a new attitude because for a lot of people it is a non-negotiable decision they’ve adopted – G-d said so. That’s a very difficult position [||] for someone to overturn.
I know Jay says he’s the “god mc” and all that, but unless the real G-d changes His stance, for most people who are homophobic, it doesn’t change a thing but headlines.
“I think Jay is not going to cause any change in attitudes. The attitudes people hold about homosexuality are not ones that their favorite artist or the most influential celebrity can sway them out of. People need explanations and reasons before they adopt a new attitude because for a lot of people it is a non-negotiable decision they’ve adopted – G-d said so. That’s a very difficult position [||] for someone to overturn.”
baby steps and sh*t
Ugh, please don’t say Nicki Minaj is “the most popular female rapper ever”! She is a pop-singer, not a rapper!! She is more like a black Lady Gaga…all image, no substance.
While I do agree with the “all image” statement, the fact remains she is still a rapper.
I happen to hear Starships for the first time a couple days ago…well I heard the about the first 30 seconds of it. -_- Although she is still “rapping” I suppose.
Lady Gaga is a white Grace Jones.
A very poor one mind you.
*taps Malik on shoulder and whispers*
Grace Jones would pull a straight up Strangé on you for even mentioning her in the same sentences as that chick.
And I’d love every moment of it. Lady Gaga’s whole steez is a Grace Jones rip off though.
I never thought about that…. not sure i agree though. Grace always seemed to come across as more… aggressive. Nikki, not so much (Though her a$$ is aggressive, i must say)
I guess i’ll just have to see Nikki in a Conan movie to give my final answer.
Don’t know. Don’t care really. Unlike 90% of hip hop fans (who are are mostly dumb by the way), I don’t care about performing background checks on rappers. I understand that rap is a music genre. And music is apart of the entertainment industry. As long as your music entertains me, I’m a fan. I don’t have to relate to it (although that makes it slightly better), there doesn’t have to be a message (although the majority of hip hop fans believes the opposite), it just has to entertain me. That’s it.
I don’t hate Rick Ross because he’s fake, I hate him because he’s boring. The only Rick Ross I ever listen to, is anything featuring Drake, because Drake kills it every single time. Pretty embarassing when Drake’s one verse on YOUR song was the best verse on YOUR entire mixtape. If hip hop embraces homosexuality, good. If it doesn’t, boohoo. I just want to be entertained. Don’t give a d*mn what you rap about. Misogyny, drugs, politics, “the struggle”, rape, whatever, if you got the lyricism to pull it off. Do it.
“Unlike 90% of hip hop fans (who are are mostly dumb by the way), I don’t care about performing background checks on rappers.”
This is largely true for the average hip hop fan born after 1982.
“I just want to be entertained. Don’t give a d*mn what you rap about. Misogyny, drugs, politics, “the struggleâ€, rape, whatever, if you got the lyricism to pull it off. Do it.”
Truthiness *in Stephen Colbert’s voice*
Na, I’m the opposite, I assume that all of my entertainment is real and feel betrayed when I find out otherwise. I was pissed when I found out that “the wire” wasn’t a reality TV show. Strang has a British accent? That’s not street.
James Gandolfini is a studio gangster? All of the rock love ballads of 80s were performed by drug addicted male whores? Lambchop could only talk cause some ginger had a hand up her @ss? Every rapper isn’t a major narcotics kingpin/psychopathic mass murderer who happened to avoid arrest or death? John Grisham wasn’t a lawyer? George Lucas has still never been to space?
I’m also extremely naive and I have a very low capacity for abstract thought.
Meech, you have made my day. I have missed you terribly.
*crimson and cream hugs and kisses*
Yeah Meech had one of my favorite posts today. Made me laugh pretty hard. I became a fan after seeing how he handled that discussion with meisarebel and one other poster last week about race and ethnicity. A sharp one he is
“Remember how cats used to spend hundreds of dollars on throwback sports jerseys; rocking them to night clubs, weddings, proms, and funerals and sh*t? ”
I don’t miss the throwback era but rocking throwback jerseys in night clubs was practical and confortable
I rather throwbacks than half the things ninjas be rocking now tho…
Skinny jeans and trucker hats? Nah fam, keep that LOL!!!
Na, dressing like that can get you shot in the wrong state for looking to suspicious.
Man i paid good money for a Montreal Expos throwback jersey and cap…. just as the ish went out of style. Yep even my clothing game is on “CP time”.
But dammit i’m not giving it away! I’m going to hold onto that baby until it comes back in style… even if i’m 80!
I still got a Bo Jackson Raiders jersey im just holding on to just in case lol…
Until Hip Hop has songs talking about “killing botty boys (gays for the unfamiliar)”, Dancehall Reggae is the most homophobic genre. There are songs that actually have machine guns going off in the background and tells “botty boys to get up and run”. Check out the group TKO if you have any doubts.
I was just thinking about that song. Of course I had no idea what it meant until someone told and and I’ve heard other songs like that as well. I can’t think of any hip-hop songs actually describing violence against gay people.
“chi chi man” was probably my favorite dancehall track when i was in college. didnt find out until years later that the whole song is talking about burning gay men alive
First of all, dancehall got hip-hop beat in the Music Homophobia Olympics. The day I hear some hip-hop songs and whole albums where all they talk about is killing gays and not washing clothes where gay people wash their clothes is the day we can even discuss this. This isn’t to let hip-hop off the hook by any means, but let’s keep it real.
Second, I think Jay-Z coming out in favor of gay rights is his way of saying “I made it, I can’t be challenges, so why be so defensive?” Think about who is for and against gay rights in America. The educated and money classes are pro-gay rights. Also, think about gay neighborhoods in America. Notice that they’re nowhere near any poor people of ANY color. On the flip side, it’s the poor and working class that got the most issues with gay folk, with some new money types rounding out the group. Even the religious aspect of disrespecting gay rights is a bit of a class thing when you think about it. Think about who tends to be religious: the poor and the working class. Also, a lot of those megachurches filled with well-off people are also filled with people who grew up working-class at best.
Simply put, gay rights in America is a proxy way about which classes values get to dominate society. The saying has been that anti-semitism is the socialism of fools. In the 21st Century, homophobia is the socialism of fools.
Back to the Jiggaman, and hip-hop in general, I don’t think Jay-Z will influence hip-hop because the average dude sees him as someone established and safe. The average dude struggling to make a living while listening to the latest mixtape on his headphones feels like his manhood is constantly in question. After all, his bank account (if he even has one), his living situation and the police don’t seem to think he’s worthy of respect. So how is he going to prove he is a man worthy of respect to the wider world? Hmmmm….
Cosign…Dancehall artists do not play with that shit
Ha ha ha ha…here is an example of what we grew up listening to:
♫I(Its like) Boom bye bye
Inna batty bwoy head
Rude bwoy no promote no nasty man
Dem haffi dead♫
Man I feel so evil dancing to that song, but the beat just goes soooooooo hard! Smdh
@JMTG: Every time I hear it (and its been a while) I just automatically begin to bugle and butterfly.
*airhorns, sirens and gunshots*
Ah yes…the song that got Buju kicked off The Tonight Show…
Agreed, Jay is an influential muhfugga, he had people in Boston bumping Empire State of Mind, he owns 1% of the Nets yet seems to have more power than the Mikael Prokohov, and everybody and they mama been talking about doing a Watch the Throne album (yes i know they werent first but u never hear ppl say ima do a Blackstar type LP in interviews) however with this one i think everyone just did an “oh, thats nice” and didn’t care that much.
Wow. Empire State of Mind was on heavy rotation on my hip-hop late night shift iTunes playlist when I was doing my postdoc at Harvard. #calledout
Excuse me miss was a classic… well it wasn’t compared to some of jay z’s other work but i liked it. Anyway, Maybe if hip hop culture softens up on its overdone homosexuality, black men will be more open with their sexuality (well i guess this only applies to black men that are suppressing homo or bi- sexuality in order to conform). Possibly lessening the number of men living on the down low. In turn, possibly lessening the associated STD risks. Any way we can i say, aah the possibilities.
on another note, a coworker/friend of mine expressed his theory to me that lack of structure for children/youth concerning sexuality could be causing then to view it as sort of an optional playing field where they can switch teams when they switch moods. we work in DCPS and literally among our middle school children there are several, and i mean several students who switch sexuality monthly, weekly, and some daily. I mean i guess that technically it is a choice everybody has but he as a straight man doesn’t like/agree with the trend we are seeing, his notion is that the kids are doing it to exercise freedom and power as oppose to making an actual sexual choice. I completely see where the man is coming from and i wonder if in 10 years straight (or questionably straight i guess) black women will be having relationships and marriages with reformed homo or bi sexual men whose homo or bi sexual experimentation dates back to 6th grade? just to be fair i’ll aahh those possibilities too.
” i wonder if in 10 years straight (or questionably straight i guess) black women will be having relationships and marriages with reformed homo or bi sexual men whose homo or bi sexual experimentation dates back to 6th grade?”
What makes you think they don’t already do that now??
As long as theres homophobia and closets, this continues.
Think of women who are with men who have had sex with men while in prison or in secret.
Eh, Ive seen that, too. In a lot of schools today, the attitudes have changed so much, that’s its now fashionable to be gay in many places. There is actually peer pressure in a lot of places to be bisexual. Cause the rationale goes, if you’re not homophobic, then what’s to stop you from trying it. If you find the idea gross or disgusting, you must be a homophone, which makes you a bigot and ignorant……..
@ wild cougar- really? That’s pretty scary to think about…I always felt like the super conservatives and homophobes were exaggerating or overreacting when they predicted that sort of thing would happen. Hopefully those were isolated incidents, but the tide is changing so maybe not. I’m not too worried though. Kids gotta be able to stand up for themselves and not be pressured into ANYTHING that they don’t wanna do. It’s part of the grade school experience and sh*t…
This is just more BS. Jay-z is getting older and he is following the Ice-t and Ice-cube road to success and using age as a get out of jail pass. It is in his best intrest to have a political. agenda In the end Will Smith was right.
What did Will Smith say? I’m curious now.
Will was at the Grammys one year and his acceptance speech was about he was always about the positive and would never stoop to the negative levels that was becoming popular and look how it turned out for him and everybody who has followed him path.
@Tentpole: Yes I recall this. Remember how Will use to get mad hate because his attempts are rapping was considered SHAQ-ish cause he didn’t use sailor language?
Why is this a negative though!?! Isn’t this what we want?? Jay-z did all of the work that he did for so long SPECIFICALLY TO get to this level.
Amen
Because he is part of a group that influenced a culture then once he exploited and made a profit he walked away leaving that culture in disaray.
BAM….
I’ve been #TeamWill since I was four years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well worded TP. So basically he pulled a U.S. president in a foreign land type maneuver? Good point.
Lol smh, what happened to us.
Does technological advancement just make people in a society weaker, and more sensitive. Or maybe it’s the fact that our nation is falling into 3rd world status, and being the evasive nation that we we are, we’d rather just feel good about ourselves and have high esteem in our mediocrity? It’s funny, because reading a lot of these comments, I think the more I listen to educated black people talk about this gay issue, the more I realize than in the next 10 to 20 years, we will finally have reached equality with white people, not economically but in terms of our phoniness.
I’m on here seeing people psychoanalyze street hip-hop as a way of the subconscious of gang bangers to avoid the urge to have an all-male gangb**ng with each other – Crips penetrate, Bloodz on the receiving end? And in my head, I’m like; “Really that’s what it? Really, these dudes who kill men for stepping on their air-forces, are really just guys who want to be free to bend over and bend another man over and do some queer guy stuff…yep, now why don’t you go to downtown Compton and take your superior wisdom and knowledge down to those people who are suffering and share with them that truth, so they can achieve their salvation and hear the good news that you Freudians have for them?
Ladies and Gents, I grew up as a kid hearing the phase “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words will never hurt me” but now I’m like Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man, who fell asleep and after 30 years is seeing a world that’s so corny, and so weak that I’m wondering whether or not I should f**& it all up, just so I can feel a little more comfortable. I mean we live in a society, where bullying is now you going on facebook and calling a girl or a boy a loser, which might eventually lead to the victim deciding to off themselves with pills, their daddies’ gun, jumping off a bridge. We live in a society, where people have impassioned manifestos on twitter ever week where they declare their ambivalence towards their “haters.” Wow, the modern American really has it bad don’t they.
What does all this rant have to do with the gay marriage issue or hip-hop and its apparent fear and hatred of homosexuals – hmmm everything. You see, as shocking as this might sound to people, I have no problem with white people saying the word N***ger (I’m even irritated that I have to put asterisks because I actually want to escape moderation, but I probably won’t regardless), I mean it’s not like N-word and N**ger are anything but distant cousins both born out of incest on both sides. But look at us, look at people on this site, we know in real life we never refer to ni&&as as ninjas, but hey as long as we seem proper and pc, even when we’re “anonymous” all goes well and the world is good? Isn’t it?
That being said, why should anybody be mad at Jay-Z isn’t he the perfect reflection of our phoniness trend. We want rappers to stop saying b**tch and ho, because it’s demeaning to women, when in real life b**tch and ho are the words that best describe how a lot of men “feel” about the non-kin women they’ve met in their lives, but who really gives a sh**, nobody cares about hearing what you honestly feel, they want to hear what you feel on their own terms. If a white guy hates black people, we no longer want him to speak about black people the same way he talks about black people at the KKK meetings, I want him to talk to me rationally, and without offending me as though he’s a Rhodes scholar, when in reality he’s probably a high school dropout who’s slightly autistic.
Well done ladies and gents, you should be happy that your ever growing defense of the PC trend, has brought someone like Jay-Z to the forefront of the gays and hip-hop issue, you have managed to get a person, who probably cares less about gay marriage, to come out in support of it. Now granted he’s not mastered the art of phoniness yet, but remember, Jay-Z just started becoming white, and that’s a long term job prospect. A lot of you are already experts on that and you just need to exercise a little bit of patience; he’ll come around. And in case you ever feel depressed, and you’re lamenting about the insensitive and the offensive a&&holes with opinions who just can’t shut-up still have a platform, just remember that you’re winning! I’m sure, already looking at the quality of rap lyrics that I hear on the radio in the last 5 years, that you’re on the verge of conquering hip-hop as well. I mean a rapper already entitled an album “I’m Gay” and the world is still here, if that isn’t progress I don’t know what is.
Lol, as I said – moderation.
I somewhat agree with I feel that some of the homophobia people see in hip hop has always been overstated by fans, artist, and ,nonlisteners. the question wasn’t can gay rappers exist, because they do no one can stop you from making music. It was can an openly gay artist be a star like Kanye or Jay-z? To answer this question one of the most popular rappers has been seen kissing a grownman twice and calls him daddy, you know who i’m talking about.
Look it doesn’t matter what homophobia people see in hip-hop, the vast majority of black people don’t like, or don’t care for homosexuality. Even the women who tend to defend homosexuality, or the feminists leaning women who care about gender equality, let some down low dude, or some ex-gay/bi-sexual man come at them, and see if all that pro-gay stuff still stands…it’s all phoniness.
Even if people are homophobic, what are the people seeking gay support, doing to make people want to have a change of thought when it comes to gay marriage and other things, outside of using guilt. I used to wonder how white people, could not only allow someone like Malcolm X to call them devils, but also allow him to be famous. And I realize from watching his debates, and listening to his arguments, that he appealed to people’s reason whenever he wanted to understand our struggle. Gay support groups don’t appeal to reason when they argue against their opponents, they use guilt and the legacy of MLK and other civil right leaders, to evade the tough work involved in making people want to change their minds.
VERY good point! Guilting people doesn’t get you anywhere.
Yeah it was a d@mn good point. I’m a lil jealous that I didn’t think of that first. Trying to evoke guilt won’t do much but make ppl get defensive, irritated, and angry with u. Typically the opposite of what u were trying to accomplish.
People who fight against h0m0phobia tend to see it as a black and white issue. They don’t mean to guilt you but just look at you like you’re a vile human being for being so narrow-minded and downright hateful (in their opinion) which results in the guilty feeling. But of course, this gets them no where. It’s just hard to logically explain to someone why they shouldn’t be h0m0phobic. It would be like trying to explain to people why drowning puppies is bad. It just seems to be clear to them but a more keen strategy is necessary I guess… or people should come to there senses and not be jerk faces
Yeah I feel u honey. I can most certainly relate. I feel the same way about a number of issues that are common d@mn sense to me, but not to the masses. Smh, I feel like I was born in the wrong place at the wrong time :/
As long as you end up in my arms it’s all good.
Fair enough
This is exactly what I’m talking about: how do you fight against people who hate you? When I was growing up as a kid, I was taught that you had “rights” to protect you from the hatred of others, but you had no rights to protect you from being hated. If people have a book or a religion that says they should hate you, why the hell should they not hate you, because it makes you uncomfortable.
The only way you can make a person not hate you is my by appealing to their ability to reason. Guilt just makes people hide the fact that they hate you, kind of how white guilt is also responsible for racism that can’t be proven in America today, and we all lament because now anytime black people complain about racism we’re called reverse racist.
Homophobia, just like the word racist, is a term used to immediately remove the opportunity to debate and argue. It’s a shaming tactic plain simple. It’s a term that should be used to refer to people who abuse the rights of the aformentioned groups, however, to those who tend to be the victims of the phrase, it’s usually ends up being a phrase thrown into the faces of people who disagree with whatever the gay agenda is.
“Look it doesn’t matter what homophobia people see in hip-hop, the vast majority of black people don’t like, or don’t care for homosexuality.”
The irony of the whole thing is that gay people are steadily trying to align their struggles with the Civil Rights Movement and Black people, while sadly overlooking this obvious fact.
They are not trying to align. They are co-opting. Because they have no intention of fighting for equality for Blacks, or any other group, for that matter. I think most Black people can see that. Were not all gullible.
” They are not trying to align. They are co-opting. Because they have no intention of fighting for equality for Blacks, or any other group, for that matter.”
+550,000000000000000000
“ninjas” is so we won’t get trapped in moderation…I haven’t seen PC here since I started posting, LOL
I’ve owned a blog, the answer to moderation is to turn it off….but then bam, anybody can say what the hell they want, and the chances that disorder and chaos ensues skyrockets. However, to be fair, who wants to lose control of their blog?
I see what you’re saying. Don’t necessarily agree with everything, but I respect it.
In terms of the gay issue, I’ve said before (the Obama post I believe) that I’m indifferent to gay rights. And hailing from a largely homophobic region, that says a lot.
As for the phonieness, as you call it, I disagree. I don’t see Jay as the epitome of our “phonieness.” In fact, I give the man respect for making it to a level where he can pretty much live how he wants. Maybe I’m a bit to utopian in my view, but I don’t like to think of him as selling out to the white man or becoming white himself. That’s a bit facetious to me. As is the term 3rd world (which bothers me), but that’s a different story.
In regards to the “you only act homophobic cause you probably gay” argument, I’m all with you. That argument is tired, old and just plain retarded.
It is phoniness, and it’s not hard to tell. When I talk about phoniness, it’s the same kind of phoniness you see when you work at a job with white people and they’re asking you “How was your day”, but you can tell they don’t give a damn about how your day was. It’s a formality, rather than a reality.
When Jay-Z made his endorsement for gay marriage it lacked passion, it was just matter of fact, you could tell he didn’t think of it as a thing of injustice, or something that burned deeply in his soul, it’s just the thing to do. Just like it’s the thing to do now for Obama since election time is near. Do you think Jay-Z would say anything negative about gay marriage, after Obama came for it.
It’s kind of amazing, where we’re coming when people don’t understand that the same thing that led to racism being hidden by white people, where now it can no longer be proven unless, there is a case of racial tourettes on the TV or on the radio. That’s the same way this whole gay/homophobia thing is going. You’re just gonna have people silently hate gay people, just like many white people passive aggressively hate black people.
“Or maybe it’s the fact that our nation is falling into 3rd world status…”
Really? 3rd world status? That’s a bit dramatic.
We are nation where even the poorest people have cable television and air conditioners.
I really dislike that term. It’s outdated. Very outdated. And no longer applicable when compared to what people generally deem to be “first world.”
If you’ve ever lived in a 3rd World country, or a country where corruption is basically direct and in the open for example Nigeria or Cuba, you can feel the zeitgeist towards 3rd world.
This post is filled with so much angst, if it were re-written to rhyme, it could make a pretty good hip-hop single.
Lmfao! Black Medici your post made my day man. I literally fell off this step I’m sittin on laughin! I was really feeling like I was goin crazy reading some of these d@mn comments. I wont even start talkin sh*t though, it aint worth it.
I will say that the actions of openly (its important that they be out of the closet) gay men will be what makes society and hip hop artists more respecting of them. Political campaigns do the opposite of what they try to do in the young black male community. Those of us under 25 (or 30 in many cases) will always be anti-establishment and anti-PC so what the h*ll will a press released statement from some rich label wh0re do to change some young dude’s mind about what’s masculine and whats not?
But then again the same way heroin and crack became so uncool after the 80s that no young person would admit to even thinking about trying them, I think the same thing will eventually happen to homophobia. When logic sets in they’ll see the situation like I do. For every gay man that comes out the closet that’s one less competitor and one more available woman for me
excuse me?
Uh oh…
Ahem..theoretically speaking that is
mhhmm
Uhhhh……no.
But that was a well thought out attempt to marry growing acceptance of homosexuals, to your perception of an increase of “phoniness” in our culture.
…… it didn’t work, but it was a good try
I accept gay people, I just don’t give a f&&k about what they go through. That’s the same way a lot of white people are, they don’t care that about driving while black, crack vs cocaine laws etc, but they accept that black people have been treated badly in the past, they just don’t feel guilty about it if they didn’t do anything directly to harm gay people. I accept that a lot of people have beaten up people because they’re gay and that’s wrong, but as far as the “plight” of the gay people, or that dumb commercial with Jared Dudley and Grant Hill that tries to eliminate context at the extent of gay people’s feelings, I tell you that I utterly could give two…
I think the only way misogony will go down is from both women and gays supported openly gay artist and female artist not named Nicki Minaj.
As much as some women such as oprah spoke against the misogony in Hip Hop they never supported a female artist that was already established.
Why am I stuck in moderation?
“As much as some women such as oprah spoke against the misogony in Hip Hop they never supported a female artist that was already established.”
This is very true. Back in my day, I don’t ever recall women buying any albums from Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Roxanne Shante or even Yo-Yo for that matter. Probably Salt-N-Pepa…and I’m not too sure about that one either!
Who did women support at that time? Luke, Too Short, Eazy-E and N.W.A. Women didn’t really mess with supporting female rappers until Lauryn Hill came along.
The only female rapper that I can think of that has ever commanded a large and majority female audience has been Nicki Minaj.
I would venture to say that Salt N’ Pepa had a largely female audience- I don’t think too many men were listening to “Whatta Man” or “Shoop”. They weren’t as big as Minaj of course, but did pretty well in their day.
No, they had a largely pop audience- remember they had quite a few crossover hits. For the record, there were a lot of dudes that listened to “Whatta Man” and “Shoop” (You’re looking at one of them). Again, I state that women didn’t really support female rappers like that. If they did, most of them who started back in the early 90′s would still be around today.
I am a woman and bought Latifah records AND NWA records back in the day. The problem was (and perhaps still is) that invariably on the Latifah/Lyte/YoYo/Salt&Pepa, records there were only like 2 good songs and the rest sounded like throwaways. If women like MC Lyte had NWA-like budgets, there would have been classic albums, instead of just classic songs.
LW on 05/17/2012 at 10:57 am said:
“I am a woman and bought Latifah records AND NWA records back in the day. The problem was (and perhaps still is) that invariably on the Latifah/Lyte/YoYo/Salt&Pepa, records there were only like 2 good songs and the rest sounded like throwaways. If women like MC Lyte had NWA-like budgets, there would have been classic albums, instead of just classic songs.”
Here’s where your argument is wrong. Queen Latifah, MC Lyte and Yo-Yo did in fact have a bigger budget than NWA. All of them- minus Salt-N-Pepa until 1993- were signed to major labels. Queen Latifah was on Warner Bros. subsidiary Tommy Boy (and later Motown Records), while Yo-Yo and MC Lyte were signed to Atlantic Records. NWA was signed to Priority- which at the time was an indie label and wasn’t bought out by Capitol Records until long after they broke up. Keep in mind that NWA didn’t really have a marketing and promotion budget for “Straight Outta Compton”, which is why the album went to number one without a song on the radio, and a video made for one of the singles long after the album was released.
Also, it’s dishonest to say that they had albums with two songs while the res of it were throwaway tracks. I have all of their studio albums and I can tell you which ones were bangers from beginning to end:
Queen Latifah- All Hail The Queen, Nature Of A Sista and Black Reign
MC Lyte- Lyte As A Rock, Eyes On This and Ain’t No Other
Yo-Yo- Make Way For The Motherlode, Black Pearl and You Betta Ask Somebody
You’d make 100% sense if women constituted a large portion of the groups buying and supporting rappers in general. First of all, the majority of hip hop music (I’m talking CDs and even live shows) is bought by white men. This didn’t realy hit me until I started going to live shows.
Also, there’s the fact that hip hop is dominated by men. There are precious few women making music in this genre, and they are not promoted nearly as well as their male counterparts.
So stating that women didn’t support female rappers as much as they did male rappers, and suggesting that this had an effect on the longevity of said female rappers’ careers is a bit of a stretch. Hip hop is marketed to a certain demographic, of which women are a minority. Majority carries the vote.
“You’d make 100% sense if women constituted a large portion of the groups buying and supporting rappers in general. First of all, the majority of hip hop music (I’m talking CDs and even live shows) is bought by white men. This didn’t realy hit me until I started going to live shows.”
Here’s the problem- you are talking about who is buying most of the hip hop records, and I am talking about female rappers that women did not support.
“Also, there’s the fact that hip hop is dominated by men. There are precious few women making music in this genre, and they are not promoted nearly as well as their male counterparts.”
The music industry is dominated by men and I have heard this same argument by women in the worlds of R&B, rock and roll and country music. Again, men dominate the music industry as a whole.
“So stating that women didn’t support female rappers as much as they did male rappers, and suggesting that this had an effect on the longevity of said female rappers’ careers is a bit of a stretch. Hip hop is marketed to a certain demographic, of which women are a minority. Majority carries the vote.”
Again, you and I are talking about two entirely different things.
And to some extent, Missy Elliott- that is if you actually consider her a rapper.
Everyone loved Missy. Highest selling female rapper of all-time. Can’t wait for her to come back and break up all these lame ass videos everyone else is making.
Realest. Ish. Ever.
+1
Man what! Missy was the sh*t! She could sing too! D@mn I miss the 90s. Smh
I remember buying the Black Reign cassette in middle school.
Yeah, I don’t know what the Perverted one is talking about. The women I know supported female rappers back in the day, when they were good and still breaking through. But I’m not going to study PA’s words too hard, because they’re all coming from somewhere I can’t understand and don’t want to visit.
“But I’m not going to study PA’s words too hard, because they’re all coming from somewhere I can’t understand and don’t want to visit.”
It’s coming from the background of someone who worked in radio and retail, so I’m speaking from facts and sales numbers- and numbers don’t lie.
Will Jay-Z’s considerable voice and presence be enough to help hip-hop evolve past accepted homophobia?
I don’t know if it’s enough but am daggone sure it’s enough to get major support for the POTUS re-election efforts.
In my humble opinion (and by that I mean I don’t know anything about hip hop culture) I think the reason Jigga did this is because he knows he is viewed by many as the “HIP HOP KING†(that dude has got OPRAH in his speed-dial) and hip hop males are all alpha dogs, heterosexual, not messing with any fairies type of dudes. So when the POTUS who we all know is the HEAD ALPHA DOG, with mad swagger, has been known to publicly “brush his shoulder off†and quote rappers THEN goes and gives the OK to same sex marriages…am pretty sure the whole hip hop community gave him a major “JIGGA WHAT?!?! And a collective “THAT NINJA TRIPPIN†could be heard all over the hip hop community.
So in enters Jigga a.k.a “HIP HOP KING†to show he too supports same sex marriages and if he can support it the rest of the niggas will because whatever Jay does is well done and will be copied over and over again. Watch and see how many more hard core rappers jump on the band-wagon after this.
why does it feel like this was written in code?
I’m going to come at this from another angle- in reference to embracing homosexuality within hip hop.
As a longtime hip hop fan, it doesn’t bother me that Jay wants to acknowledge and/or support homosexuality. It’s his choice, not mine (I don’t support it, by the way). However, this is one thing I had to bring up:
Since when did gay people ever listen to hip hop? For the most part, all they ever cared about was dance music, adult contemporary pop divas and pop styled R&B. Maybe it’s just me, but you’re much more likely to see a gay person own an album by Madonna or Lady Gaga than you will Mobb Deep, Nas or Slum Village. I mean, I could be wrong, but gays being hip hop heads? Naw man, can’t see it.
@PA…baby you forgot that Ellen likes hip hop…:)
Pop rap? Yes! But I’m talking about actual hip hop- real hip hop! When Ellen Degeneres owns and recites a Pharoahe Monch or Talib Kweli album, then I’ll take her seriously.
“Since when did gay people ever listen to hip hop? For the most part, all they ever cared about was dance music, adult contemporary pop divas and pop styled R&B”
LOL, so all gay people are vogueing and doing the duck walk?
From the way I see it, pretty much…
Those are just the gay people you realize are gay.
smh
I go to gay clubs with my gay friends pretty often, and the DJ never plays hip-hop. It is always pop, techno, and 80′s old school. The vibe is sexy, carefree, and fun. Hip-hop (along with other genres) has an undertone that conflicts with that vibe.
“I go to gay clubs with my gay friends pretty often, and the DJ never plays hip-hop. It is always pop, techno, and 80′s old school.”
All of that would fit under the category of dance music. I used to DJ for a little bit back in 1998, so I wasn’t making this stuff up about the music gay people listen to.
“The vibe is sexy, carefree, and fun. Hip-hop (along with other genres) has an undertone that conflicts with that vibe.”
Gay people generally like music that was geared toward a club atmosphere (Which is why synth pop artists like MGMT, Skrillex, Foster The People and Sleigh Bells have a huge gay following). I have never seen the gays get down with anything outside of that.
In my experience, you see more hip-hop heads that happen to be gay more than gay hip-hop fans. While they’ll fall back from an artist is they’re too homophobic for them, their love for hip-hop isn’t central to their gay identity.
To take it broader, gay culture in the USA is about expressing yourself in as loud and bold a way as human possible. That stances makes sense in that for all but the past 20 years (and still currently in a decent number of places in America), just the simple act of holding your boyfriend’s hand in public or kissing them was a dangerous, revolutionary act that could get you killed, fired from your job and/or disowned from your fam in 8.5 seconds. As a result, their music tastes tend to skew towards the ones with a more dramatic presentation, like dance music, R&B and pop.
Hip-hop generally is the opposite of that. You can’t get but so dramatic with a set of turntables and a bunch of guys in a t-shirt and jeans on an otherwise bare stage. While there have been a few examples of acts with dramatic stage profiles over the years, that’s generally the case. Whenever hip-hop brings the drama, gay people eat it up. Black lesbians may not bump hip-hop too crazy, but they loves them some Nicki Minaj. Nicki can sell out any show she feels like at any Black Pride festival in America. Most other acts, no matter how tolerant…not so much.
@ boo,
they are in the closet, because of all this homophobia!!
Hello by the way. I’ll be gracing your crib one of these good days. Anything new
?
“Will Jay-Z’s considerable voice and presence be enough to help hip-hop evolve past accepted h0m0phobia?”
Hip-hop ain’t h0m0phobic- it’s male h0m0phobic. Hip-hop loves lesb!ans (My Girl Got a Girlfriend) Nicki Minaj, Trini, and if I recall correctly Lil’ Kim have used at least one line alluding to a willingness to “switch teams.”
So will Jay-Z’s vocal support of gay marriage uplift rappers (and most men on planet Earth) from their pit of hypocrisy- no. Additionally, our typically view of h0m0s.e.x.ual men is the complete opposite of what hip-hop tries to convey- ultra-masculinity. I’d bet most rappers don’t give two craps about gay marriage or h0m0s.e.x.ual rights. If asked, they’ll say “yes, I support it” but how many would march in a rally. Probably Kanye- he has clothes to sell.
Hip-hop loves lesb!ans (My Girl Got a Girlfriend) Nicki Minaj, Trini, and if I recall correctly Lil’ Kim have used at least one line alluding to a willingness to “switch teams.â€
Nooo no no. Hip hop loves EXPLOITING lesbians’/bisexual women’s sexuality. I don’t know a whole lot of lesbians who’d take too kindly to guys constantly trying to get them into a threesome, for example. Lesbian/bisexual/etc women are more acceptable because in straight-male dominated realm like this, they can be used for entertainment purposes–they’re fetishized. That’s really not helping or supporting queer women at ALL.
When exactly did Jay-z become “white” or ” a male Oprah”!? I don’t get why we have to turn on ANYONE who becomes too successful?! What did I miss? He’s an extremely wealthy black male in his 40′s… He shouldn’t be talking about too much street sh*t unless its past tense. What do we really expect from him. I swear as a people we don’t know WHAT we want.
I’m the biggest Jay-z fan but I don’t give a flying f*ck what he thinks about gay marriage… why are we making a big deal of it. He is a f*cking RAPPER, not a statesman. And here we are trying to figure out why he came out and gave an opinion… who cares? He had an opinion and he expressed it. It ain’t that deep. Just let me know when that Watch the Throne II comes out.
Word.
Again, amen.
It’s not turning on him, he’s just always known which team to side with and give the best politician response he could. From here on out, he’s going to make sure he stays in the good graces of old white men and say progressive things.
i’m with you on all of that… minus waiting for another album…
“I’m not going to spend today breaking down the apparent hypocrisy and lack of sincerity of someone who has repeatedly used the word “faggot†in his work denouncing people who oppose gay marriage.”
So wait, it’s hypocritical to believe that faggots should be able to marry each other?
Well played, my friend.
Wow, I guess people can just say anything no matter how vile and regressive on VSB. Who knew.
I just asked the question if it was ok to use the term queer? Something that i find offensive.
Why? There was a whole phase on television with Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. They didn’t seem offended. Why should you?
Serious question. Not tryna be an arse.
Am I the only one in America who saw Queer Eye as the gay equivalent of coonery? Just wondering. Something about the suggestion that gay is okay as long as it’s serving the interests of the straights just didn’t sit right with me. These are my own feelings. Nothing to do with whether gay people were okay with it.
Understood. To me, queer is just rude. I would never use the term in describing someone. That’s why i was wondering if it is something that is ok to say. I find terms like fag and queer to be equivalent to n*gger. But that’s just me.
“Understood. To me, queer is just rude. I would never use the term in describing someone. That’s why i was wondering if it is something that is ok to say. I find terms like fag and queer to be equivalent to n*gger. But that’s just me.”
queer is a funny term. it can be used in an insulting manner “look at those queers” but also used as an adjective “will jay-z ever sign a queer rap group.” the only other word I can think of that manages to do that is “jew”
Shrug. In that regards, I’ll quicker see queer as the equivalent to Negro. But then again, that’s just me tryna be politically correct. I still say faci, fruit, etc, in regular conversation.
Not saying it’s right. Just sayin it is what it is.
This discussion IS getting pretty exhausting to read. The oppressive and hostile language/ideas are astounding.
“Wow, I guess people can just say anything no matter how vile and regressive on VSB. Who knew.”
i’m pretty sure please, no please is just trying to catch me in a semantics trap. not calling gays faggots as much as he (or she? i don’t know) is parroting what i said earlier
Yes, you get it. I appreciate that. Very Smart indeed.
I’m sorry I just can’t get past the gravi pic. That dog already looks like a character so every time I see a post from him/her I imagine the dog saying it and all seriousness just goes out the window lol
That dog looks like Eddie on “Frasier” LMAO!!
In order for Jay to have a Black Moses effect, he’s got to do 2 things:
1. Produce gritty music…again
2. Be relatable to the public
Jay’s current status reminds me of old rock and roll groups, what’s there to write about when your’re no longer angry? It’s hard to talk about the struggle when you aren’t struggling or close to the street anymore.
Hip hop doesn’t have to be all about “the struggle” or the street. There are a ton of other things to talk about.
The folks struggling are the one’s that tend to be anti gay. Thus the need to relate.
+1
The folks struggling are the one’s that tend to be anti gay. Thus the need to relate.
hmm. interesting point
“They’re rappers man. Rappers!!”
What Jay said sums it up about Jay-Z. He’s not a statesman. He’s an entertainer who gets paid off of having people support his work. People who might not do so if they are NOT homophobic and think he is.
He stands to make more money because he is appealing to his old fanbase (market) AND a potential fan base (new market) because he takes this new position [no pun intended].
It’s all business man. If it was just about his personal convictions, he wouldn’t be airing it.
Hmm, it would take some kind of boldness for a Black gay rapper to come out the closet with his boys around him.
Besides there have always been rumors surrounding how there are well-known Black men in the closet in the hip hop game.
To even address gay marriage, we’d have to address marriage period in hip hop. Marriage seems to be the antithesis of the image that hip hop promotes.
It’s going to take some bold men to change things, not Jay Z.
I’m sorry but I must have missed when Jay-Z became the ordained High Priest of Hip-Hop. Over time, hip hop will become less homophobic become the newer generation moving into the genre are more accepting.
I’m not really sure if Jay-Z is leading on this front as much as he is a barometer for a changing social climate. Society in general is becoming more tolerant on this issue (Hell, even VSB), and the pendulum in rap has swung the other way hard from the days when MC Lyte had to make gangster rap. So yeah, I think change was already on the way and Jay just confirmed it, like the popular kid that wears trendy clothes right after the style isn’t too unsafe but right before everybody else is doing it.
Jay is a great rapper but has never really been a trend setter, just a very keen and visible trend follower. He stays on the relevant more by colabing with hot trending artists. DMX, Eminem, Wayne, Kells, Ja, West. But never really strays too far from the beaten path, even in the artists he signs, didn’t want to sign Ye, was more into Freeway and Beanie. Hell, he even married Beyonce.
And a black Jewish rapper just came out of the closet.
No, it wasn’t Drake… yet. Some cat named Y-Love. Jay will play a game of Hop Scotch with the shark, but he wont jump it. Have to respect his timing.
Very good point. It’s like his Death of Autotune campaign. He didn’t really put an end to it by his lonesome, just made a bloody good song just as people were starting to get tired of it.
Jay knows what he’s doing. Can’t fault the man for that.
You must be kidding me! This man has been homophobic throughout his career, and then suddenly has NOW developed positive sentiments about homosexuality and we are supposed to do what exactly?! Show support and accept him to the fold?!
Fug out here. I HATE this man and what he represents. I do NOT support any human being who degrades the very essence of my existence, let alone being homophobic. He has made a FORTUNE degrading WOMEN!!!!!!! Are you kidding me?! Oprah for years was against rappers, and I remember well, when she went HAM on Ludacris. Then all over sudden, she started showing this IDJOT love! Are you kidding me?!
Now that he is a father, he is suddenly respectful towards the womenfolk. Kiss my African donk without one. You were born by a black woman, that is ENOUGH to show respect to her ilk!
Jay-Z’s stance is nothing BUT a fashion trend to him. He is a FOOL who just jumped on a trendy bandwagon that Obama is on. If he was genuine about it, he would have declared his stance, long before! It incenses me, when folks jump onto something and are blind as to the cause and effect of it all. As per the post, he is made to seem as if he is an “opinion leader” in the hip hop world of some sort. Puhhhhleaze.
Jay-Z can go jump off a bridge with his “support”. I ain’t buying this bull fecal matters that he is pushing. Go flush it in a toilet.
Val’s comment was ON POINT!
You’re posting this on the wrong blog. This would go over real well with your “sorority”…
LOL, so you won’t even give him kudos for ‘evolving’ a la Obama in his views regarding gay marriage? A bit unfair methinks.
I agree with you though, regarding misogynistic lyrics. I don’t place Jay-Z high on any of my lists, especially after I had to labour through one of his concerts for a friend’s birthday (he’s got a big ego). I tune out any and all artistes whose music is deemed offensive to my self.
And so is yours, AM!
“This man has been homophobic throughout his career, and then suddenly has NOW developed positive sentiments about homosexuality and we are supposed to do what exactly?! Show support and accept him to the fold?!”
So basically, it’s impossible for anyone’s views on this matter to evolve? Because if that’s the case… all of the protests/campaigns would be for naught because folks are just gonna keep believing what they wanna believe anyway.
Doesn’t sound too… hopeful, IMO…
+1 my fembooboo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But ya know, keep hope alive.
“You must be kidding me! This man has been homophobic throughout his career, and then suddenly has NOW developed positive sentiments about homosexuality and we are supposed to do what exactly?! Show support and accept him to the fold?!”
The question wasn’t whether the hip-hop community should follow him. It’s about whether they will. I too have reservations about Jay-Z’s convenient “evolution.” Not saying he’s not genuine — i have no way of knowing that — but i’m not sold on his sincerity either
Sidenote: Who saw this recent video of Beenie Man addressing homophobia??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KIJtjgn2ypQ
It was well phrased.
I don’t know the man’s true stance, and probably no one but him himself does, but it was interesting, in so much that he didn’t openly state he supports anything homosexual, just that he has no problems with anyone, period. Minuscule difference, yes, but still note worthy.
Still interesting though. What’s funny is I believe Sizzla is still on a ban from England because of his lyrics. And Buju has never gotten a break.
Ah well. Knowing what little I know bout Jamaican culture though, Beenie is no Jay Z. His opinion will mean very little when you have men like Mavado, Vybz, etc, still running around makin badman music that don’t promote chichiman behaviour. And their clothes STILL tighter than anything you’ll see Kanye or Drake and Wayne wear.
Concerning Vybz… “Shotta nuh bleach wid cream” lol!
“Will Jay-Z’s considerable voice and presence be enough to help hip-hop evolve past accepted homophobia?”
I’d like to hope so. We can’t deny that he has had considerable influence over our society whether it be positive OR negative. I guess you take the good, you take the bad, you take it all and there you have the facts of life. In an ideal world, I’d love to think that something SO deeply ingrained as homophobia could be dissipated by a huge pop culture icon’s statement just as easily as a lyric about throwback jerseys can garner change, but I must say this ain’t gonna be a piece of cake.
At the very least, I hope it opens up some minds…
CUTE AVI. CHEEKIE!!!! The fro is growing.
Thanks, Breezy! \(^_^)/
Agreed…I like the fro!!!
Agreed, I like it!
+1 You look gorgeous and super adorable.
Cheekie that’s a beautiful picture of yourself. You look like a full grown beautiful woman in it.
Thanks, ya’ll! Preciate the love.
*hugs*
*hugs*
I’m going to touch on a few subjects right quick.
First, Jay’s influence is nowhere near what it was 10 years ago, hell or even 5 years ago. The current generation of hip-hop fans consider him a old man.Dude is old enough to be my father and I just graduated from college, so you already know people younger than me ain’t looking to him for the latest “trend” to follow.
Homophobia isn’t just a part of hip-hop, it’s apart of the black community as a whole. So it’s not going to up and disappear because Hov says it. However, I will say recently hip-hop has become more accepting of things that would normally be considered homosexual, Drake’s consistent crying and Lil Wayne’s no shirt with jegging parade are perfect examples of such. Personally I feel like this is being pushed by a higher power (record labels) but I don’t wanna be a conspiracy theorist.
Now on to some other things. The arguement “you’re homophobic because you’re really gay” is old and tired. If you’ve ever been around people who are really homophobic you know this isn’t true. While i’m sure there are a few who use homophobia to mask their own sexuality, I’d bet money it’s nowhere near the majority.
As far as misogyny in hip-hop, it’ll stop when all women (not just a few) decide to stop accepting it. In fact as I write this two college educated 23 year old women are bobbing their head and reciting word for word a song called “thats my hoe”….
I think hyper-s.e.x.ualization and misogyny can become entangled. I also think there’s some truth to the argument that adult women can enjoy hyper-s.e.x.ualization. Some women like it- some of it I like. The “misogyny of it all” may be in the eye of the beholder.
I very very very seriously doubt it.
Reason being there are far TOO many closeted homosexuals in hip hop for that to happen. Fear and cowardice masked by false bravado and hyped up machismo, served with a strong helping of mysogony, is, has been, and will be the order of the day for those butch queens chile.
“He has made a FORTUNE degrading WOMEN!!!!!!!”
So what? Here’s my problem with this argument that women love to spout. It’s incomplete and ironically insensitive. Let a woman describe rap and you’d swear it’s 99% misogyny. Fact, the VAST majority of the violent lyrics in rap is aimed at young black MEN. Yet nobody complains. Not black men, nor black women. If your going to complain about violence in hip-hop, complain about ALL of it, not just that which takes place against women. Because doing so makes it seems like you’re saying this, “You can continue talking about murdering a guy and all his buddies because he formed the wrong hand and finger configurations around you, but not women. That’s just wrong!”
What? When’s the last time you heard a female complain about violence in general, in rap. I’ll wait. I’ve never heard one. Whenever women complain about rap it’s the same misogynist this and hatred against women that, crap. Oh, you’re fine with the negative things said about men then? That’s cute.
I was with you until you said “that’s cute”.
Don’t know who you are talking to in real life but I have heard plenty of women, myself included complain about the violence in rap lyrics, whether it be toward other men and/or women. But then I don’t partake of the genre as I once did as a youth for many reasons.
A few things:
- I don’t understand your statement that women are being insensitive when we complain about misogyny. Who are we (women) being insensitive to by airing these complaints? You can only relate to something from your own perspective. You can’t get medicine if no one knows you’re hurting.
- If black men choose not to complain about violent lyrics (and I highly doubt that such a blanket statement can be true), that’s their prerogative. It doesn’t mean a woman’s complaints are unnecessary. Besides, I know there are several men and women that are actively complaining and campagning against these violent lyrics.
It’s insensitive in that you complain about one side of things, and ignore the other. This is why I have a hard time supporting groups aimed at one particular group or demographic (like NAACP for example). Because all these groups attempt to play the victim card, or they could care less fighting for the betterment of humanity as a whole, and only focus on their demographic. It’s basically a, “if it ain’t got sh*t to do with me, I don’t care” mantality. This sh*tty every man for himself mindset is part of the reason why humanity is at where it’s at now.
If you don’t like misogyny that’s fine. But don’t expect to get much support, especially in a male dominated artform, when you deliberately choose to focus on one specific thing and ignore the majority of the package. I say the same thing to Feminists, Pro-*insert race* people, etc. As I said, why complain about violence when you won’t address all of it? That’s like me saying I support lesbian marriage, but I’m against gay men marriage.
If this is how you really feel than you should be at the forefront of every dayum organization fighting for every cause under the sun instead of berating people for fighting for specific causes.
Do you think you have that kind of stamina…. outside of the bedroom?
Or, we can do something much more easier, efficient, and less taxing by just supporting one organization that fights for widespread equality. Race equality, gender quality, sexual orientation tolerance, religious/non-religious tolerance, etc. That way I get to conserved my god-like stamina for what really matters.
What she said.
TUK- U made some GREAT points about women only attacking that which effects them, and I was with u till MJoy’s last comment. U really do have to pick something specific and concentrate ur energy rather than runnin yourself thin by fighting everything at once with only 10% of the effort for each cause. U can’t expect ppl to be as passionate or even aware of the issues that effect u disproportionately. It just ain’t gonna happen. As someone who is interested in far too many topics I can tell u from my entire adult experience that u end up making little to no progress when u don’t focus on one SPECIFIC (can’t be vague) issue an handle it or nothing gets done…
Except, you really don’t when talking about equality, or violence, or whatever specific. Fighting for equality is actually a specific cause. It just so happens that it covers a wide range. Same with violence. It’s specific enough without you making even MORE specific and saying, “Well just violence against women. Violence against men and little boys? Don’t care. That’s their problem.”
Simply put complaining about misogyny and misogyny only is being unnecessarily specific when you can just kill two birds with one stone and tackle violence. And people’s response to this attitude-wise is, “Why the f*ck should I give a d*mn about you when the cause you’re fighting for seems to exclude me? There’s no reason for me to support you.”
“(And yes, today, in 2012, Hip-Hop/Rap is more violently and vehemently homophobic than any other major “thing†you can possibly name. Nothing else beats us it right now.)”
Hey, I am from the Caribbean, T&T to be exact and read your blog daily. As for the statement above I would have to disagree with you here. Though, the Dancehall Genre may not be considered much, in my opinion it is by far more Violently Homophobic than Hip Hop. They describe very graphically the violence they will met out to the gay community very openly in some of the music they put out. Just thought I would mention that and keep up the great work and the interesting pieces from your self and Panama.
thanks for replying. i’m aware that dancehall reggae is much more violently homophobic than hiphop, but i consider it to be a niche genre — not the multi-billion dollar force rap is.
Homophobia in Hip-Hop is like Misogyny in Hip-Hop is like Violence in Hip-Hop is like Drugs and Money and more Violence in Hip-Hop.
This post kinda hearkens back to an earlier post of ya’ll talking about misogyny in Hip-Hop and I’d stand by my comments there too. Someone else in this thread mentioned that Hip-Hop has already got a lot of bad ish in it — talking about everything from straight-up ganking peeps to drug-dealing to suicide and rape.
Shoot, listen to ANY Immortal Technique track and tell me you’re not offended. But also tell me you’re not made more aware of global politics and oppression. It’s hard to separate the bigotry from the music; I’m not sure it’s even possible. Hip-Hop is a form of expression that defies consistency. Dudes will drop lyrics about heaven and they mamas while simultaneously putting out videos with objectified female behinds and stories of greed gone wild. I dare somebody to make that make sense.
Anyhoo, what was my point? Yeah. Hip-Hop and homophobia is, again, a snap-shot of a lifestyle, or way of being and living in world that isn’t pretty or PC. It’s an ugly place filled with bigotry and all kinds of mess, yet somebody cared enough to write about it, make a song about it, and they made it sound awesome. That doesn’t mean homophobia is awesome. It means the art itself is awesome for being so good at whatever art form it is. And ya’ll gotta remember: separate not just the art from the artist, but the art from yourself.
Also, I think Champ said somewhere upthread that the progressive Hip-Hop is being made in the Midwest??? Seriously? I think the coasts have got them beat between: Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, B. Dolan, Murs, Immortal Technique, Andre Nickatina & Equipto, Dilated Peoples, El-P, Jurassic 5, Blackalicious, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Skillz, and the Alchemist.
Seriously, Midwest ain’t got nothing but Lupe Fiasco and Slug. (Not hating, just saying.)
“Also, I think Champ said somewhere upthread that the progressive Hip-Hop is being made in the Midwest??? Seriously? I think the coasts have got them beat between: Aesop Rock, Sage Francis, B. Dolan, Murs, Immortal Technique, Andre Nickatina & Equipto, Dilated Peoples, El-P, Jurassic 5, Blackalicious, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Skillz, and the Alchemist.”
who?
lol, just playing. but, seriously…who?
That’s cold man =/ You know who they are. (Or at least, I hope you do.)
Are you the same person that posted as Medium Meech the other day?
Just kidding…
Not really…
Great points Zek. I agree. I LOVE Immortal Technique, but at times I hear him say things that I immediately make a surprised face and make a mental note that (well I don’t agree with that sentiment but I still feel and agree with most of his points and what he stands for)
We all know that many ppl wouldnt be famous we’re it not for expressing offensive and controversial (yet popular and familiar) statements/sentiments in general, not just homophobic ones. The more attention we pay to offensive ignorance the more it’ll prosper and thrive. At the end of the day homophobia strikes me as another form iPod misplaced anger and aggression and that coping mechanism itself may evolve and find a new target/outlet but it ain’t disappearing no time soon.
*of not IPod. This iPhone is a weirdo sometimes
“Pro-gay” seems to be the latest fad. You’re just not cool if you’re still homophobic. You look dated and silly like Champ with his sidekick. I question the sincerity as supporting gays seems to be “the thing to do” these days.
But, I’ll take it. Support is support and can lead to REAL progress if people do more than just follow a trend.
At the end of the day when people change hip hop will. If people wanted to hear positive and progressive music they’d support it, It would be making millions. people don’t though as much as people claim they hate it so it doesn’t stop. And even if they did neither homophobia, violence, drugs, or, misogony are going to disapear completely. Personally I’ve always felt the hate for the violence drugs and some of the misogony was bs because it exist in all forms music isn’t holy has never been will never be and doesn’t have to be positive. If your going to hate the negative in hip hop or music in general, hate it in all forms of media. My parents love to talk about how some of my music talks about drugs or has violence or curses then they’ll watch some comedian like dave chappelle or eddie murphy’s RAW or watch a R rated movie, like ain’t the same.
according to my teenage cousins Jay-Z is wack now, so no, I don’t think anybody is gonna jump on the bandwagon. Besides the fact that people can sense when something is done sincerely or with a manipulative agenda. Even though I personally am not for gay marriage, I would atleast feel te president was being sincere if he didn’t flip flap all over the place to gain popularity. Something about Obama & Jay-Z’s recent stances feels very manipulative so i’m not buying it & I’m pretty sure most people can sense the same thing.
I agree that Minaj is hyper sexual, hyper hetero, hyper bi, hyper lipstick, hyper butch, etc…. She’s (her personalities) are hella fluid.
But… I’m not sure that means the Hip Hop community is becoming less hyper-masculine. It has always embraced women who embraced other women. From MC Lyte to Eve to Queen to Kim to Trina to Nicki to Azealia to Missy to Iggy. All of these women have rapped about licking some other girl’s nether regions or their actual lifestyle leads the public to believe they are open to women in general.
But that’s just women… Society in general doesn’t bat an eye if women love other women.
But just like a female has the capacity to find another woman attractive and/or intimately love another woman, men do too…
And I still think that the Hip Hop community isn’t ready for that. Or rather I wouldn’t use its acceptance of women who blur the lines of sexuality as any new sign of progressiveness.
I forgot Da Brat! And Syd the Kid. And Alicia Keys… just kidding!
Questions for all of those who support same sex marriage:
Would you be willing to except marriage between adult( over 18) consenting siblings?
I.E: A brother want to marry his brother or a sister that wants to marry her sister or brother?
To each their own… But incest is also a coin toss between the off spring having chromosomal abnormalities.
I don’t want to compare the two and even say one is more important than the other, but if homophobia some how ends up removed from hip hop, but misogyny, along with the hypersexualization of women does not..then we might as well call it quits on equality.
WTF? When has Jay-Z ever expressed homophobia? Never. I wish some of you thought before you typed.
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