I’m an expert in many things. For instance, I’m the reigning expert in sexxiness upon entrance to a room. Do you remember that scene in The Best Man where Morris Chestnut enters the club and all the women fall out?? Well, he got that swagger from me.
Speaking of swagger…Jay-Z??? Yeah I brought that to the table.
In fact, the table? All me, pal.
I’m also an expert in poly-bicarbonate infused multispectrum exhaustion disposition. And no, that doesn’t mean anything. It does mean I’m an expert in BS.
However, there is one particular area that I have no expertise in whatsoever. And this one area has caused me a great deal of inquiry and peer discussion:
Genetics.
Now you might wonder why in the world I’ve been focused on genetics. It’s for a very simple reason. I happened upon a question one day. It’s a question that has garnered many an answer and sparked much debate with no apparent agreement in the middle. It’s a question that seems more and more relevant given today’s multicultural dating climate and the abundance of race-mixing going on. Face it, you see race-mixers everywhere.
So what is the question you ask?? It is as such:
If two mixed people have a kid, what is the kid?
There are mixed kids everywhere nowadays. Which is great. I’m mixed.
Yay, me.
Black men have been dating white women at astronomical rates and procreating to boot. I’ll leave the debate alone on Black men dating white women, mostly because I really don’t care. Well this boom in multi-cultural acceptance and flat out rebellion has created a group of new little light skinned wavy haired munchkins. I’m of the mindframe that mixed (Black and white) kids are Black. Now, that’s more of a societal thing and because, well, that’s how I was raised. Growing up in a Black household (I wasn’t raised by my white mother) with Southern roots and then living in the South will do that to you. Where I’m from there ain’t no picking and chosing. You just don’t have that option.
But see, genetically speaking, mixed kids are indeed the combination of white recessive genes and el Negro dominant genes, and not merely Black.
[***Sidenote: For the sake of argument we'll pretend that Black people in America are actually Black and not descendents of white slave owners lustful escapades with Kizzy and the chick in Rosewood.***]
So say you have two mixed people, one male and one female.
And the church said, “duh.”
Male: .5 Black + .5 white = 1 mixed
Female: .5 Black + .5 white = 1 mixed
Now the mathematician in me wants to say well, if you got .5 + .5 that equals 1. So technically speaking, two mixed people with two kids would have one Black kid and one white kid, and they just get to fight it out to figure out who gets to be the cool one, i.e. the Black kid. Though of course that cool becomes completely irrelevant when the Black kid can’t get a job, but you know how us Black folks are – shortsighted and sh*t – which explains why ANYBODY would get permanent gold/platinum/titanium/uranium teeth.
But I digress.
Now I guess a lot of this depends on which rule you chose to follow as well. If two mixed kids have a child do you just say the child is mixed too?? This seems a tad absurd to me because for some reason, mixed doesn’t create mixed in my mind. It’s almost like you have to come up with a new category.
Black+White = Mixed
Mixed+Mixed= Hmmmmm…Mo’Mixed???
See, I clearly have no answer for this. So some people believe that mixed kids are just Black anyway in which case this would be a moot point. Two mixed kids would just be having more Black kids. That just seems a little bit too simple for me. But then again, what if the mixed people don’t actually believe that they’re, ya know, Black (uh, weird!). Do they just believe they’re having white kids?
Do they also believe in magic?
I don’t know. What say you?
-VSB P aka THE ARSONIST aka TANGLE JIG P
Isn’t this where the word creole came from? I’m sure I’m wrong, but I thought the original creoles were just mixed people procreating (Africans mixed with Spaniards mixed with French).
You can call the child quadroon or octaroon or some other antebellum term.
Just curious, is this sparked by the upcoming birth of your own child?
And I think the more important question is why can’t I download Ego? It’s the only song I like from Beyonce’s album, and my frostwire refuses to download it.
@Fly…,
Nanana i aint a Ni99a dawg, I’m a quadroon you better recognise!! Lmafao… (that sounds like one of the tribes from Star Trek ma ni99)
@Fly…,
Okay I read the post and was formulating my response with my New Orleans Creole heritage in mind. How you got into my head, I dunno. But Imma need you to leave.
One: Creole is a culture, IMO, not so much a way to determine your level of mixedness. There are pure white Creoles. In New Orleans, you are Creole if your ancestors came from the colonies (French or Spanish). I hate to say it but in the N.O. there is a distinct separation between a Creole and a ‘regular’ mixed person.
That said, all four of my great-grandparents are mixed (either half or 3/4 black…with either French or Spanish and some Choctaw tossed in. All of these mixties were created outside of the plantation; look up placage) . These folks branched off and married other Creoles (some of them were first cousins (!). Their kids, my grandparents, met and married each other, other Creoles. And then my parents, with the same type of ancestry, met, married and reproduced. And you get me, a green eyed curly haired light skinned chick.
All of my people – even the ones who don’t look so – claim blackness. I think at some point you look real crazy trying to trace back generations of ‘other’ and telling folk you are 20% French, 15% Spanish, 10% Choctaw Indian and 55 % black.
@V.E.G., my grandmother is creole, her parents actually spoke creole but never taught her…so i guess that makes me a quarter creole…and i’m 1/16 cherokee as well…but yeah idk what the hell that has to do with anything i just wanted to say it…
sidenote: the only reason i even know this is because i hate how little i know about where i come from…like what my family history is, who im related to, what they did…for the most part all of those records are lost so i may never know anything about my ancestors…am i the only one who feels like that?
@trin-trin,
“am i the only one who feels like that?”
It is a horrible feeling to not be able to trace your lineage back very far. I am lucky that I am from New Orleans…the soldiers pretty much put their hands up during the civil war when the Union came marching in and lots of records were kept in tact. Wish everyone else could be from a town that had no fight in it.
@V.E.G., yup, I’m a N.O. creole too and when I moved away got so tired of telling people what I was b/c it was too damn long. We may have to revert to antebellum words because my creole cousin married an Italian and the baby looks 100% white. Funny thing is all of my ancestors who look all of 0% black claim blackness also.
Sidenote, look up Wentworth Miller (from Prison Break). He is actually mixed, not white like everyone thinks.
@trin-trin,
I felt the same way you do about not knowing how I got here.
But I researched and opened a lovely clusterfcuk of worms.
I came up with everything but the kitchen sink within 2-3 generations (Irish? me? wtf?) Its awesome to know that my family on my moms side came from Ethiopia (word up to my people!) and on my dads side they came from Orleans in France (not much for browsing were they?)
BUT…
Be prepared to have that ‘Creole’ aunt, grandmother, etc. pitching a fit to find out the African line isnt as distant as they thought.
On the half n half, I don’t really know what to say. I’m the special person that doesn’t think about race and pulls the “You’re (insert race here)?” Its easy..almost lazy to just throw down ‘white’ or ‘black’ and call it a day. But if you are pulling a Tiger Woods, you’re kinda splitting hairs.
That show Race-O-Rama that comes on VH1 comes to mind again. Mariah Carry = tragic mulatto
Word.
@Uninspired Muse,
Why are women always painted as the tragic mulatto? Are there no tragica mulatto men.
@V.E.G., the term “tragic mulatto” was born out of early post-slavery American literature. it was often melodramatic saga like a soap opera…torn between 2 races, in which neither community would embrace her. And I’m guessing that a ‘mixed’ female heroine was less “threatening” to the reading public then a male. i.e) “imitation of life”
@Miss Patterson, maybe, but i also don’t know many mixed dudes who seem to have these major identity issues. not to say it doesnt happen, but part of it could be our desire to identify with our same gendered parent and most mixed couples seem to have the white mom, black dad thing going on…
and very rarely are you going to find a Black man telling his mixed son that he’s not a Black man. that’s what happened to me, i heard early and often that even though my mother was white, I was Black.
simple. yet effective.
@Panama Jackson
“and very rarely are you going to find a Black man telling his mixed son that he’s not a Black man.”
That is because this is d@mn near sentencing your baby to death in this country!!
Black women can sometimes get away with that flowery finding myself bullsh!t if they are dainty and pretty enough, and enough people are fascinated by their “exoticism” to entertain that thinking, but telling a mixed-race Black man that he is anything other than Black is asking for a dream deferred.
I mean, seriously. Thank God Barack Obama decided he was Black pretty early in life.
@V.E.G., i didn’t know that…about the definition of Creole, my understanding was that it did refer to mixed ancestry, more so than the culture. Weren’t we talking about Cane River (Tademy) a while back…what was going on there? Weren’t they all ‘technically’ Creole culturally, and yet there was a clear distinction between the whites and blacks in that narrative. break it down for me. i wanna learn…
@Miss Patterson,
I wanna learn too. This stuff is interesting to me. Race/identity/America and African-American history are some of the many things i tend to obsess over. I have a ton of books on the subjects.
I wanna learn too. This stuff is interesting to me. Race/identity/America and African-American history are some of the many things i tend to obsess over. I have a ton of books on the subjects.
me three. ever since i read “race” by studs terkel when i was 14, i’ve been obsessed with any type of racial issues/discussion
@The Champ,
U having read a Studs Terkel book just gave you mad points. RIP Studs. He just died 2.5 weeks ago, on Halloween. Maybe I shall call today “I heart Champ” Day.
@The Champ, me 12. race fascinates me to the point of obsession. mostly though b/c i find race to be so damn funny. i love stereotypes and ignance…all rolled up in ones.
the best examination of race i’ve seen was this book compiled by the NYTimes editorial staff called “how race is lived in america” they did a gang of stories on different people’s perspectives on race, etc…
it’s like what “crash” hoped to be, but wasn’t. and i know some of y’all loved the movie “crash” and felt it did a good job of examining race, i really didnt, mostly b/c of the smear job it did on Asians. there wasn’t one redeeming Asian role in that movie…
@Panama Jackson, THANK YOU! Crash was not that good. What was all the hub-bub, bub?
In other news, the tragic mulatto male would have never worked in literature because like the female version he would’ve dated both races and there’s no way in sam hell that they would written a romance novel about a Black man passing as white and laying down with a white woman…at least not in the 19th century when this ‘tragic mulatto’ character was born. i hear ya on the real life version…you’ve got a point there. however, i do have a cousin who’s a quarter black and he thinks he’s white even though his nose and hair say otherwise. i want to ask you something so bad now but i fear it would be inappropriate. it’s about yo mama, but wait, let me get my breakfast first…
@miss patterson,
if its that inappropriate ask me offline. you got my email ninja…
otherwise…ask away, homeslice…i aint ralph tresvant.
@Panama Jackson,
the best examination of race i’ve seen was this book compiled by the NYTimes editorial staff called “how race is lived in america” they did a gang of stories on different people’s perspectives on race, etc…
yeah, i remember you recommending that book to me like 4 years ago. it was a good read
vsb.com: where yet another PBG reading list gets compiled.
@Miss Patterson,
I think that folks started using Creole as a word for ‘mixed’ much later on. And when that happened whites started referring to themselves as French Creoles.
While there are white and black creoles, make no mistake: white creoles, in general (unless they were fathering black kids) wanted little to do with their black counterparts. Black Creoles had more rights, obviously, than their enslaved brethren. I think that, after slavery, black creoles really took the term as their own to maintain (and separate) their social and political standings (or what they had). They were the gens de couleur libres and wanted everyone to know it.
The Cane River creoles were a creole community, lot of big clans in them parts. Most of them folks were of French and African descent, with some Indian tossed in. But quite a few of the families ‘passed out’ and were no longer ‘colored’ after a few generations. This is, of course, my cliff notes version.
Fly is on point. The black-French-Indian progeny didn’t seem to hurt New Orleans and led to some great food and hot-azzed Creole women who could wear the hell out of a red dress.
Brazil, on the surface, is almost one big melting pot, but the darkest Brazilians still have the lion’s share of poverty as they barely survive in shanty towns aka favelas.
On the downside, we have South Africa. The ‘Coloreds’, as they were called if light enough, were considered a separate race. This was political dynamite between them and the blacks, and led to a lot of tension.
That paled in comparison to Rwanda, where the Tutsi’s were taller, a little lighter descendants of (I think) the Danish and Africans, and the Hutu, who were pure Africans, shorter and more muscular. The Tutsi were given the office jobs while the Hutu toiled in hard labor, got tired of being 2nd class and slaughtered their cousins.
I honestly hope we don’t ever go there here – again. Black is political and will continue to be in our lifetimes. Divided we stand, divided we fall, and fall we will, because there are still far too many racist whites who plan for this while we’re asleep. They’re the 40% who voted for McCain, and we know damn well most of them wouldn’t have if Obama was 100% white.
Fidel Castro had it right. He kicked out the white imperialists and outlawed racism. White-looking Cubans couldn’t flee to Florida fast enough. Some of those mofos still think their azzes are white and they’ve been traitors to their country of origin as they long for the days of paying zilch for services, labor, and prostituting young brown and black Cuban girls in the once booming Casino towns like Havana, a playground for the mob, the rich, and politicians in the US. The grayhaired rednecks in power here continue to hold a grudge and keeps that country dirt poor by making trade illegal, and can’t wait to return and overthrow it to exploit them again, because in their racist minds, there’s no such thing as a “white” Cuban. It’s just a ‘mixed’ subhuman to be manipulated and raped of their resources.
Until the racists are in the tiny minority, we must be ever vigilant, black, and proud.
*steps off soapbox*
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
Thanks for keeping it Trill, and for the record we South africans don’t have any tension against the “coloureds”, we just don’t like them that much.
What’s akward here in South Africa is that we blacks are the majority and white folks are the minorities, yet the Highest social class is very predominately occupied by them. Yes we run the empty parastatal box that is the Govergnment, but white folks own the means of production which sustain the economy. We have put in place systems of Affirmative action and Black Economic Empowerment, but the guardians of our own democracy are bought for fees and corrupted, with their latest escapades splahed over the front pages of national newspapers every week (not exegarating), with these accounts used by the same white corrupters to argue against our ability to run a country.
What I’m trying to say K.I.T is that even when rascists are the minority (not to say all white S.A are rascists), we must not relax…like a famous philosipher once sayed “We don’t sleep, we rest one eye up”
Fist in the air, “yellow and proud, amandla!!”
*steps off the cereal box*
@sisanda,
Amandla my brother
*** Fist in the air***
@sisanda, growing up, I was obsessed with African history and S. African history in particular. When you wrote “Amandla” it brought back memories of me pumping my little fist in the air chanting “Amandla, Ngawethu”:)
This part of your statement stood out to me:
“Thanks for keeping it Trill, and for the record we South africans don’t have any tension against the “coloureds”, we just don’t like them that much.”
This made me chuckle, but in a way it captured the pathos of race distinction and its legacy. I do understand completely where it stems from.
You make an excellent point about blacks in S. Africa being the majority, with limited power. I don’t think there has been a race revolution anywhere in the Black diasporas. We fought for equal treatment before the law, and while the “Colored Only” signs were taken off the bathrooms, the white voice, experience, and world view, remains the dominant one. Whites occupied the land and devastated a people, fast forward to 2008 and they dominate every sector of the economy and enjoy the crop of generations of dispossession in S. Africa. Here in America, we are still reeling off of electing the first black president, one of the last western countries to participate in the slave trade to not have a black leader yet (my views on what constitutes the “west” are different). IMO, this will either pull blacks into black solidarity, or American solidarity. I think it can be argued both are better than what we have now.
In the eyes of many, the black agenda is still kneaded by WASP architects.
What makes this all the more evident to me, as well as painful, is to see black people use the same gauge that was used against us, against each other.
OK, I know this post isn’t about African/African American history or dynamic. How do I see mixed people…I think in America the one drop rule pretty much ends that discussion, if you have any black ancestry you’re black, and if you claim otherwise, as in only your white side, you are disregarded as delusional or as having a complex (this excludes those who decided to “pass”). In a lot other cultures, your father pretty much determines your lineage, the group you identify with etc. You can choose to acknowledge both parents, but your father’s heritage/tribe/group is what you claim. I remember watching an interview with Halle Berry wherein the interviewer asked her how she sees herself, white or black etc. She said growing up she always claimed both her white side and black side, until her mother sat her down one day and told her that she is black, that is how society views her, and that is how she should view herself. Of course Halle identifies with the black experience fully; however you can tell it was more of a rude awakening into the realities of race in America, and that society dictates how you identify yourself.
Personally, I am all for people claiming all that they are, but when I met black people who ONLY claim their white side and avoid being labeled as black, they get the serious side eye, then I pour out a lil something for another casualty of war.
I don’t even know if this made sense, I’m really tired, I guess for me it’s a conflict between what is innate human nature (which I do not believe is made to distinguish) and the understood rules of society. I try hard not to fall into generalizing but dagnabbit, white people have just been out of order! I’m all for world peace, I’m just going to need for the black agenda to stop dancing on white strings.
@overit,
Personally, I am all for people claiming all that they are, but when I met*
that should be meet:)
@overit,
What makes this all the more evident to me, as well as painful, is to see black people use the same gauge that was used against us, against each other.
Sooo. Powerful!
@overit,
“I don’t think there has been a race revolution anywhere in the Black diasporas.”
Haiti?
White people aren’t ever going to forgive Haiti.
@Jen,
“White people aren’t ever going to forgive Haiti.”
One of the criticisms of revolution is that once you replace the existing order, what next? This is the problem faced by a lot of African countries, they fought for independence, then descended into chaos soon after.
I guess I did not explain myself clearly, Haiti definitely set a precedent, and they most certainly had revolution. What I meant was a revolution that put Black people on top, and without the legacies and symptoms of white supremacy. That is too much to hope for NOW, but d*mn if Black people did not overthrow their white oppressor, to oppress themselves.
@overit,
This I agree with.
I think blackberry provides the answer as to why this is below in her allusion to the fact that before white people, these countries did not exist.
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
you should change your name to cornella west
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
“Some of those mofos still think their azzes are white ”
A lot of them are white . . . descended directly from Spaniards . . . too much “reaching across the aisle” to know who is pure and who is not. Latin America is all effed up.
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
I love it when you get on your soapbox!!
It depends. Throughout the European colonized western hemisphere, the originmal creoles were considered the American-born white people. So, Spanish people born in Cuba, or Mexico, or Peru, or wherever. Same in Louisiana and Saint-Domingue (Haiti.)
The idea of a creole being someone of mixed racial ancestry came after that.
@Fly…, this actually wasn’t spurred by my impending spawn.
i was just having a convo about mixed kids with a friend of mine a couple of days ago and about race in general so i ran with it here…with you enlightened and educated individuals…
@Panama Jackson,
I’m gonna need you to NOT refer to BabyPinkPeeJay as “spawn”, OK???
hmm, wait.. .
children of identically mixed parentage would be of the exact same mix as their parents.
So two mixed parents just have mixed kids.
In the vernacular of your post, two black parents who necessarily are:
.5 black + .5 black and .5 black + .5 black. It’s a no-brainer that their kids will be black, ie .5 black and .5 black.
Q. E. D.
Problem solved.
@kamakula, I state below that they are black but you are right.. they are mixed.. or as my mother calls them “others”… I guess the mixing could produce a whole seperate classification………
@Shay-d-lady,
Didn’t your mother also tell you we never speak of the “Others”, now ni99a hush!!
@sisanda, he.ll naw… she always talking about the “others” LOL she gets mad when I tell her that she shouldnt….
@Shay-d-lady, now why we got to be “others”?
ice cold.
@Panama Jackson, hey its not me its my mom.. I would say she was racist but she doesnt like people period…LOL so dont feel bad
@Shay-d-lady, you so wrong for that “the others”? that just made me that movie with nicole kidman.
I am from the south so my answer is that the child is black…a drop of black blood? black…..
I Dont think you have to be at least 5 generations removed from blackness or any other brown minority for that matter to claim whiteness… just my opinion
@Shay-d-lady, why do you think that? I know you stated your from the south, but why is ‘black’ blood so potent? lol And also if a person like panama described claimed to be white, would he be self-hating? I have no opinions on this matter, but I think what you said is really interesting. Some people don’t even believe in the concept of race, so for you to believe that ‘a drop of black blood’ makes a person black, and not whatever other race they are is powerful. What if they are half chinese and african american, are they just black ? african american? can they claim asian? Alot of people would argue that is dangerous, because we are living by the standards the oppressors gave us. Again, I love your honesty on this issue, and hope I dont come off argumentative, I just want to get your reasoning behind that.
@postmodern pwnage, I dont know but that was the guidelines used during slavery and in the south I know it seems to still be in effect. In my experience people dont really have a choice down here and are labeled as self hating or attempting to pass if they don’t claim their blackness and yes even if the are mixed with Asians, or Indians or Hispanics they are in most instances classified and claim to be black when asked. I don’t guess I really have ever thought about it or wondered why until this question but I answered this way because thats the only way I have ever experienced it. I am totally in favor of embracing your heritage completely and totally but we live in a society in which you have to pick a side.. I mean how else are they going to determine who gets the reparations Obama is going to be delving out once in office.. I kid I kid….LMAO
@Shay-d-lady, I agree with you, and its such a touchy topic. I guess sometimes no matter how much we resist labels, society will forcefully put it on us
“I mean how else are they going to determine who gets the reparations Obama is going to be delving out once in office.. I kid I kid…”
LMAO! totally unrelated, but poor obama, so much expectations. I Bet there are even Kenyans who think they will all now get visas to the states.lol
@postmodern pwnage,
i would venture more than just a few!
@postmodern pwnage,
Trust me love I’m Kenyan and HELL YES there are people who think he owes them a visit, a visa, deals donations and a hell of a lot more!!! There is no arguing with these people. Hell what you gonna tell someone whose convinced he gonna come to the US without a visa?
The thing is with the educated Kenyans we know he doesn’t owe us jack. I mean we love him completely so that’s why we got an Obama day but his peoples claim him as the first Luo prez. (here the labels are what tribe ur from)
Can’t talk about five dots and the classification cause here it’s more on tribes. We have 42+ but the two largest and the many in between always talk about the Others and their chance to eat the national cake. Translated to corruption, nepotism and tribalism for the winners and suffering for the rest. It only benefits our politicians, our members of parliament are among the highest paid in the world even though our country is poor/ a constant victim of mismanaged taxes. We tried to tax them but the bright mahfuggahs escaped.
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/489834/-/tllajk/-/index.html
they earn an equivalent of 24,000 USD per year for doing absolutely nada. They don’t go back to their people, don’t attend sessions in parliament and still get paid!!!!
Instead this is the kind of tomfoolery they engage in. If you need translations holla!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqDM4r3gPF8
@Shay-d-lady, yeah i agree with you. despite having a white mother, i never got a choice in that matter and further, it never really comes up. folks just think i’m a lightskint black dude so when they find out my mother is white (but my president is Black), folks are often surprised. add to the fact that i was raised by my black father and black stepmother and nobody ever even thought to quesiton my heritage.
now as soon as folks find out they want to understand how a mixed kid like myself could be such a Black man.
and i just tell them its a Black thing, they wouldn’t understand. lol.
then i go watch Friends.
@Panama Jackson, ah-ha!!! nevermind, you answered my question without me even having to ask…
@postmodern pwnage,
The Chinese/Black person would be a Blasian.
There are also Blaxicans.
@V.E.G.,
i like to get specific with my Blasians, like Chegro and Japanegro and so forth…
@shatani,
I’ve added “referring to someone as ‘chegro’” to my list of life goals.
“chegro” and “japanegro”
***calling for a prayer service at ebenezar’s redeemed christ resurrected temple of holy fire, brimstone and bird’s eye chilli***
@puff,
calling for a prayer service at ebenezar’s redeemed christ resurrected temple of holy fire, brimstone and bird’s eye chilli
Hahahahaah…puff…don’t push me cause I’m close the (pause) edge
@shatani,
I always thought it was Chinegro
@shatani,
i like to get specific with my Blasians, like Chegro and Japanegro and so forth…
BWAAAAHAAAAA
@V.E.G., BLAXICANS?! you made me choke on my celebratory double deuce of Tecate.
@V.E.G.,
I thought Blaxicans were Black & Mexican.
@Luvvie,
According to my nephew, they are…lol
@Luvvie,
Did I say they were otherwise? I need to added additional sentences to set up my thoughts, I see.
I was just adding them as another group of mixties.
@postmodern pwnage,
And also if a person like panama described claimed to be white, would he be self-hating?
question of the day
@The Champ, as the kind of mixed person I am, I do think they’d be self-hating. that just goes to show you how screwed up race is…b/c a mixed person that claimed to be Black (to me) seems to have their head on straight but claiming to be white seems like you’re just in denial about who you are.
the whole black/white/slavery dynamic just basically screwed us over forever.
@Panama Jackson,
“b/c a mixed person that claimed to be Black (to me) seems to have their head on straight but claiming to be white seems like you’re just in denial about who you are.”
Historically,there was no incentive in being Black, people either had clandestine relations with their families, or gave them up completely in order to pass. I mean, is there an incentive to being Black even now? It comes with a host of “unique” experiences, you just don’t worry about as a white person. I’d love to say I wouldn’t do that, but its hard to imagine what living in those times were like.
This makes me think, I was reading an article by Kidada Jones, daughter of Quincy Jones, and she was talking about the very different experience she had, as opposed to her sister. She was most comfortable with her Black side, while her sister was doted on by the Jewish side. They both look mixed to me, but her sister looks closer to her white side..and it seemed that granted her a much easier life than Kidada.
Society just does not reward Blackness. Even the leaders we choose to uphold I feel are partly “allowed” us. White people love MLK, so hence the crime ridden streets named in his honor and the holiday. Our more militant leaders, are kind of pushed to the side. I think religion has a huge part in that. MLK’s non-violent resistance and general platform appealed to Christians, while Malcolm (though he was born angry) and his message of Black Nationalismand NOI ties (not fully Islamic) stood in contrast to that. Though Malcolm changed his tune, but nobody remembers that part. It seems to me people prefer Booker T over Dubois, though I personally like both, in my younger days I was anti Booker T..but he grew on me.
I think that was all a random grouping of thoughts…gosh, I hate coffee, but I might need some.
@overit,
OMG…Please post this article!
@Jen, I honestly do not remember where I read it, I know it was in a magazine. This link below discusses it briefly and it very well might have been the issue of Glamour it mentions:
http://www.mixedmediawatch.com/2005/05/31/glamour-magazine-interviews-rashida-and-kidada-jones/
If anybody else is interested, they posted it on…ahem…playahata.com
http://playahata.com/hataforum/viewtopic.php?t=9576&view=next&sid=2d18466df4a2aef1a02d443af7f18794
@Shay-d-lady, *shaking my fist @ the south*
I’m not sure what these little children will call themselves, besides just people. I’m sure society will call them “Black” due to the “el Negro dominant genes” making them various shades of brown.
Being Black isn’t JUST what a person looks like. It’s a cultural experience, both in how one was is raised and how one is dealt with in the world.
This is always an interesting discussion to me. Mixties fascinate me.
@PBG,
Imma have to disagree with that a lil tiny bit, PBG.
Race is a social construct. And it is entirely visual. That said, blackness cannot be defined as a culture. Grant Hill is black. But he grew up with an NFL playing daddy and a mom who roomed with Hillary Clinton in college. He himself said that over the years, playing ball, he knew he didn’t have the typical ‘black’ experience in his household.
Depending on economic circumstances, black folk are raised in totally different ways. Those with more sometimes move away from what is considered a stereotypically black upbringing. Those with a lot sometimes really have a hard time connecting, culturally, with the stereotypical black upbringing.
I mean, we can’t claim soul food as part of our culture anymore. In reality most of the food that black folk typically eat is born out of poverty and broke a$$ white people eat that stuff, too. They just toss in the mayo sandwiches for effect.
@V.E.G.,
“Depending on economic circumstances, black folk are raised in totally different ways.”
And all these varying experiences can’t be counted as part of the “Black Experience”? Why must we be strictly stereotypical? Grant Hill grew up like one of the Huxtables and I grew up like one of the Evanses. Does that make me “more black” than him? How does “black” automatically equal “poor”?
@PBG,
I kept mentioning stereotypical for a reason.
We all know that when the black experience is referenced on a mass-scale it is only referring to ONE type of black experience.
The Huxtables – even though there were black people who lived like that every day – were a media phenomena cuz it was so ‘new’ to the mainstream. The Evanses is how so many people – black and white – think of the stereotypical black upbringing.
Unfortunately, everyone is not as forward thinking or clued up as the folks here on VSB.
Damn, Damn, Damn.
@V.E.G.,
*smashes punch bowl*
@PBG, “clean up on aisle four. it’s the peanut butter girl again…”
@V.E.G.,
I dunno about that…
Granted, I pretty much completely disregard how nonblack people perceive the Black experience.
The Black middle class is completely ignored by the media.
But, the Huxtables lived a lifestyle that I think would be readily identifiable as Black to the vast majority of Black people or, at least, middle class Black people.
@Jen,
I agree with you. Note I used the term “media phenomena” and stereotypical and mentioned there were black folk living like that every day.
Again we at VSB are a lil more in tune…and while I do disregard how nonblack folk perceive the black experience I do take note of the fact that they drive media perceptions of what said experience is. And even our people get caught up in that.
@PBG, How does “black” automatically equal “poor”?
I agree with you. I don’t see how the two correlate. Black is black and shouldn’t depend on the economic upbringing of a person.
@V.E.G.,
“Race is a social construct. And it is entirely visual. That said, blackness cannot be defined as a culture.”
Though race is definitely an American social construct (in the Black/White terms), Blackness is definitely a culture.
Then again, I have no means of readily identifying it either. But there are common experiences and nuances that we all share as Black people, regardless of upbringing. Now, a lot of Black culture gets placed into the stereotype-realm, but stereotypes exist for a reason. And despite the fact that I hate being late…
…I love that we ninjas have CPTime. And outrageous church hats, and quality Kool-Aid. Plus, who made it cool to wear Dickies. Construction workers or Black people?
I think you already know the answer.
Plus, Black people are just cooler than everybody else. It is what it is.
2 mixed people have a kid= a quadroon (that’s what they called it back in the day…hey, i didn’t make it up)
(p.s.- hey y’all, guess what pattiecakes did? she finished her thesis!!! yay for me! do i get a cupcake?)
@Miss Patterson,
I thought a “quadroon” was a person that is only 1/4 black.
*scampers off to dictionary.com*
OK, dictionary.com says a “quadroon” is:
“a person having one-fourth black ancestry; the offspring of a mulatto and a white.”
I guess nobody thought to invent a word for when mixties hooked up and had babies. Why is that? What, didn’t they think mixties would want other mixties?? I’m sure it’s been happening forever.
@PBG,
they thought everyone would want white…mixties included!
@PBG, dangit. you’re right. but if one of the parents was a different type of mixed say, korean/white they’d be a quadroon. can i get my points back now? but what is “blackness” anyway? i think it’s more cultural than anything. speaking of which….i did my family tree and there’s a whole gang of hut visiting & consensual mixing in that story. there’s one whole side of the family that ‘passed’ for generations and now their descendants are just now finding out they’ve got a few drops in them, but trust & believe they ain’t black. (p.s.- pmoney, you wrong for bringing kizzy up in the mix)
@Miss Patterson,
“but if one of the parents was a different type of mixed say, korean/white they’d be a quadroon.”
Only if the other parent was mixed the same as PeeJay. Sooo…
you only get half your points back.
:snicker:
@Miss Patterson, about 10 years ago my the oldest living relative on my fathers side passed. Now my dad is really really dark… well we get to the funeral (deep in MS) and there aint nothing but white people.. I thought I was in the wrong place!!! 1 of my great great great greats well you get the idea was raped and had a mixed child that passed and married white and so on and so on… and had several other kids with her husband all dark skinned bold features and such.. I mean I didnt think shyt like that happened in real life.. and they were real uppity well the lady that died was the only remaining tie to both sides some kind of how and we aint heard from they a$$ since…and yes we have sent them invites. one of my cousins even graduated from a college nearby and when we tried to contact them for a visit they wasnt having none of that….smh really sad
@Shay-d-lady, that is unfortunate. i have a similar story to that. i created this 60+ family history document that outlined how everyone was related to this one runaway slave (my 5th great-grandfather) and let’s just say not everyone was pleased with their new reading material. i found this one lady (via my good old sleuthing skills), whose husband was my cousin and had recently passed away. we had a lovely conversation on the phone about all of the relatives that me and her late husband had in common and i told her that i’d be sending the infamous package…that was 2 years ago, and i haven’t heard from her since. *smh*
@Miss Patterson,
what kinda cupcakes you like?
congratulations!!!!
**Diva Dust ™**
@blackberry molasses, eeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! diva dust, pour moi? *dancing around in circles doing my imitation of the ‘single ladies’ video choreography donning an afro puff and flip flops*
p.s.- i like with yellow cake with chocolate frosting cupcakes.
@Miss Patterson,
there should be a messenger service arriving with a singing telegram and 2 dozen yellow cake cupcakes with whipped chocolate frosting sprinked with the edible version of Diva Dust(tm) .
@Miss Patterson,
woohoo!!! congrats on the finished thesis, mamacita!!
imma make some of those barefoot contessa chocolate cupcakes with the peanut butter frosting!
@shatani, i never had pb frosting, sounds yummy though!
@Miss Patterson,
That sounds the opposite of yummy. Sounds like a compendium of confectionery cacophony.
Did I mention how much I hate stinky peanut butter? And chocolate is stereotypical illusion.
@PBG, i never pegged you for the ba-hum-bug type. what? no love for the chocolate? or the peanut butter? so i take it that PBG doesn’t stand for peanut butter girl?
what you speak is blasphemy!
@Miss Patterson,
PBG definitely doesn’t stand for “Peanut Butter Girl”. That just sounds nasty. Ewww!
And I can do chocolate, just not big hunks of cake or frosting or candy bars. Only in chips of cookies and hot cocoa.
@PBG,
so, i take it you do not partake of the reese’s?? i think my life would end if i had no reese’s!
to be honest, im not all over chocolate like that either…i dont love chocolate cake. but that peanut butter frosting is fantastic! i would just eat that with a spoon!
V.E.G. can you teach me some Creole so I can say in another language that peanut butter is gross, in all its shapes and forms.
Not on a train,
Not in the rain.
Not with a fox.
Not in a box
Not with my Mama
Not in a sauna
will peanuts or any derivative thereof pass my lips. Not now, not never.
@PBG, so i take it chocolate covered, peanut butter filled pretzels are out of the question….(hee, hee)
@PBG,
I can’t translate that!!!
You can say this when someone offers you a Reese’s: “C’est bon, mèsi.” (I’m good, thanks)
If I am around when it is offered I can say:
“Ifo-myé toi pé to ladjel avant li coup-toi!” (You betta watch yo mouth before she slaps you!)
@PBG,
“…And I can do chocolate, just not big hunks…”
…………………………………………..
Hush, Mr. Champs. You always gotta say something.
Wait til 8th Wondra gets here…
@Miss Patterson, congratulations!!!!
@Miss Patterson,
Congrats!!!!!!!!!!
@Miss Patterson,
“2 mixed people have a kid= a quadroon (that’s what they called it back in the day…hey, i didn’t make it up)”
You’re right, they even went so far to to break it down to the octoroon stage…
Ahhh. Gotta love the old skool craziness…
@Miss Patterson, Congrats!
@Miss Patterson,
(p.s.- hey y’all, guess what pattiecakes did? she finished her thesis!!! yay for me! do i get a cupcake?)
do you want some of my french toast?
@The Champ, bring it! and sprinkle it with some powdered sugar. can you throw in a little bacon too?
@Miss Patterson,
YAY Pattie!! Congrats on finishing your thesis. I shall FedEx you a bowl of Jollof Rice on your good deed.
@Luvvie, pssst….and some baileys too.
@Miss Patterson, Congrats Patty Cakes!!!!
because of the one drop rule, anyone with a ounce of the swexiness of the blackness by default becomes black. especially if you got darker skin and curlier hair, you get identified culturally with whom you resemble – or not (mariah carey being case in point).
my mixed race grandmother ironically looks like a little ol white lady, then opens up her mouth and the africanness that comes spewing out always throws me off.
i remember having a conversation with someone about the identity of being mixed race (including other mixes like black and asian, black and latino etc) and identifying with several cultures simultaneously, and i think that that’s a new consciousness that’s emerging and will make this debate more interesting.
@puff,
i remember having a conversation with someone about the identity of being mixed race (including other mixes like black and asian, black and latino etc) and identifying with several cultures simultaneously, and i think that that’s a new consciousness that’s emerging and will make this debate more interesting.
good point. i think our thought processes and overall consciousness about this issue is evolving. i’d bet a months worth of bacon that the definition of what constitutes “black” will be completely different 50 years from now
@The Champ
D@mn I wish this was a bet I could take, because I sho would LOVE to have a months worth of bacon.
Smacking my lips imagining eating some bacon right now.
This question is also to everyone, since the board is mostly geared towards the African American experience. What is black? I know this sounds silly, but let me explain. The concept of black and white is very much American. Not to say race doesnt exist in other parts of the world, but lets say in Sweden, you are either jamaican, pakistani, nigerian, etc. Individuals will make racist claims based on your nationality. But in america, everyone is black or white(not everyone, but you get what I mean). There is no such thing as a unified ‘black’ identity outside of the black american experience. Bold statement I know, but do you guys agree that there is such thing as a ‘black’identity that isnt solely based on the black american experience? and who counts? afro-iraqis? fijians? maori from new zealand? is it based on colour? nose size? hair texture? where do we draw the line? Sorry for deviating from the topic, but I find this interesting as a Canadian of east african descent, and wanted to get some folks opinion on this. I apologize in advance if my question is alittle wonky.
@postmodern pwnage,
i was JUST having this discussion with a group of fellow africans. i personally have reservations about identifying myself as black because i feel as though it’s a label that was only applied to me when i left my home country. back home i’m just from my tribe/village/home town – the word black is used to describe darker skinned people, not as general nomenclature for people of african descent. in my opinion the term “black” is something that is very uniquely tied to the experience of being a person of african descent in the united states – which i guess i technically am now, but because i wasn’t born into the culture it’s still a little unsettling for me to handle sometimes.
@puff, I agree. I spent some time in various european countries, and most of the right winged nationalist factions tend to group all immigrants under one banner so they there isnt ‘white’ or ‘black’ but rather ‘french’ vs the ‘immigrants’. In canada, everyone is somali-canadian, sri lankan of canadian descent, afro-caribbean canadian, etc. Ofcourse we use terms like ‘black’ people, but that I think it is an influence from american culture, popular music, etc. Do you get accused of being self hating if you dont call yourself black? Sorry I am deviating lol, but when panama asked are these mixed people black? I had to ask what black is in the first place?
@postmodern pwnage,
“Do you get accused of being self hating if you dont call yourself black?”
that’s a really interesting question, and not a situation i’ve ever found myself in, i guess because i tend to have these conversations with like-minded africans more than anyone else. more often than not it’s more i get accused of wanting to disassociate myself with african americans and deny them a connection to the continent by claiming to be “different”… which isn’t the case. i’m actually trying not to claim an identity which isn’t mine – for example, while i recognise and admire everything that dr. king did, i also am aware that his struggles impacted the lives of americans far more than they did nigerians, because that’s who he did it for, not me and my country. i hope that semi-made sense :s
@puff,
“for example, while i recognise and admire everything that dr. king did, i also am aware that his struggles impacted the lives of americans far more than they did nigerians, because that’s who he did it for, not me and my country.”
Interesting that you said that cuz Dr. King’s work in the U.S. had a direct influence on the civil rights and black political activism movement in South Africa and in other African nations. I’m sure that, just as King was inspired by Ghandi, there is a Nigerian activist who was inspired by him.
@V.E.G.,
i don’t doubt that dr king inspired nigerian and other african activists (ken saro-wiwa is a name that springs to mind as one who definitely took on board his notion of peaceful protest), but that doesn’t change the fact that his work was done for the civil rights of african-americans, not for africans directly. i would feel foolish saying, “yeah! dr king did that for me and my people!” same way i’d expect an african-american to not feel the same attachment to saro-wiwa’s work that i do. each man had a global impact but was also was very much focused on the local issues (for african americans civil rights, for ogoni people greater access to oil wealth in order to develop their region). of course these issues are interrelated, i just don’t want to detract from their individual significance by condensing them under one generic label of “black resistance” (especially as in the case of the ogoni people, the resistance was against the government ie fellow africans).
@puff,
Okay, got ya now.
Very well-crafted response, by the way.
lol thanks girl – i do it for the people
@puff,
Respek
@postmodern pwnage,
I appreciate your question, but I’m going to speak for myself as a dignified but weary American Black woman of Generation X. I am tired as hell of having to explain, justify, rectify, clarify and identify just who and what the h3ll I am. This is why I have high-blood pressure and am stereotypically angry.
I am JUST BLACK. It is what it is. Anybody who doesn’t understand or get that by now, you never will and nothing I can do or say will change that. Please simply respect and accept my being.
“This is why I have high-blood pressure and am stereotypically angry.”
OK, I had to laugh @ this myself. I blame my HBP and ABW stereotype on everything, from why I go out partying so much to why I burned the tuna melt last week.
@PBG, lol pbg I definitely respect that and accept it. I know it gets annoying, and I am not trying to sound ignorant, but asking if this ‘black’ label is limited to only black americans. Again I am african so I have had my share of being labelled and what not. I think its a healthy discussion. Ive met African Americans who have stated they could care less about Africa or Africans and feel no connection to them, and are nothing but pure American. I can respect that, and since I am in Canada currently, and this limits my interaction with african americans lol, hence my question. So again, I apologize if my question came off annoying or confrontational, definitely not my intention.
@postmodern pwnage,
i don’t think the term “black” is limited to african-americans. and i definitely don’t feel disconnected from africans. they’re my people too. i was raised understanding this as fact, so while i appreciate a difference in our cultural experiences, i know we are inextricably involved. i can’t go anywhere w/out a nigerian assuming i am nigerian. i get the weirdest looks of surprise when i say i’m an american.
my frustration arises because africans in the other parts of our diaspora aren’t asked to “explain” themselves. yes, i know it’s because we have to figure that shyt out because we were stripped of all those things that identified us when we were brought over here. that right there is a big part of being african-american.
dang…it makes my head hurt.
@postmodern pwnage,
I totally get your question. I too spent a large part of my youth in Canada and I didn’t really get the concept of homogeneous Blackness when I moved to the U.S. Up there, I was Ghanaian. Period. When I moved here, I fit in and took up the mantle of ‘Black’ because I am unmistakably dark brown, liked the music that I was ‘supposed’ to like, understood ‘the hair drama’ and was accepted (sort of) first at my new school by the students who looked like me.
Therefore, its hard for me to swallow when people boil down being ‘Black’ to simply the tone of your skin and the texture of your hair. Unfortunately, that’s the way the world works ’round these parts. Its a convenient heuristic for people to compartmentalize and make sense of what they perceive as other.
there was a point to all of this rambling, but i can’t seem to find it now. its late and i’m sleepy. see y’all later in the AM
@postmodern pwnage, I think in America we all identify collectively and any person of African descent is black.. I dont like to get into using experiences to justify blackness, genetics is my determining factor. When you try to determine black ness based on experiences first whose experiences will you use? and secondly most often the experiences used to determine blackness are usually negative and stereotypical. I dont do the blackness scale. I have said it before and I will say it again. I might have to prove my intelligence and my skills and ability but my blackness should never come into question and neither will I question someone else’s. The black experience to me is any experience experienced by a black or African American person. Period.
@Shay-d-lady,
“The black experience to me is any experience experienced by a black or African American person”
I like your response to this Shay-d. But I think that, typically, when someone mentions the black experience they are talking about a very specific experience, one that is based on stereotypes.
@V.E.G.,
i agree, and it’s often one that is located in the Western world or at least in relation to non-African people. the black experience isn’t an issue in my home where 99.9% of the population is black.
@puff,
What is the other .1 percent?
@V.E.G.,
white expats from the US/Britain, lebanese, indians, pakistanis, chinese
@Shay-d-lady,
@postmodern pwnage, I think in America we all identify collectively and any person of African descent is black
i can’t agree with this, mainly because i know of many black americans who don;t consider blacks from other countries to be truly “black”.
i do…but sadly there are many of us who don’t. sh*t, there are still some of us who don’t consider a person truly black if theyre not from the hood
@The Champ,
i do…but sadly there are many of us who don’t. sh*t, there are still some of us who don’t consider a person truly black if theyre not from the hood
ain’t that some truth ** shaking my head**
@postmodern pwnage,
IMO…
If you are asking about blackness as race, then any member of the African diaspora is black.
If you are referring to the Black American ethnic group, then descendants of Black American slaves and/or Black people who have roots in this country prior to the American Civil Rights movement are Black.
Note that I do not capitalize the word “black” in conversations about race, but I do capitalize it in conversations about culture and ethnicity.
Also note that a lot of black people in America choose to adopt the culture of Black people even though they are not a part of our ethnic group. I consider these people a part of/contributors to Black culture.
@Jen
“If you are asking about blackness as race, then any member of the African diaspora is black.”
I guess I mean as a form of identity, as this issue of race is still wonky. If we argue that black people are africans in the diaspora, would dark skinned morrocans count? Even though they would highly contest it. I know I know, I am going way off on a tangent here lol, but I am trying to bring examples to illustrate where my question is coming from. Even if we use Africa as a starting point, we get into tricky territory. but regarding the cultural definition of blackness, I understand and agree..
“Also note that a lot of black people in America choose to adopt the culture of Black people even though they are not a part of our ethnic group. I consider these people a part of/contributors to Black culture.”
Do you think many do this voluntarily? isnt one by default part of the black american experience the moment they set foot in the states, even if they have no interest in the particulars of the culture?
@postmodern pwnage,
Based on my very American ideas of what Blackness is, dark skinned Moroccans count. The other day me and one of my Eritrean girlfriends were laughing because people at our school tend to consider this light-skinned Egyptian girl black, and this was obviously new to her.
I think that in the past, the adoption of Black American culture by black immigrants was largely involuntary because they absolutely could not adopt white culture. It was not allowed.
But, in modern times, I the adoption of Black culture is voluntary. Many black immigrants very diligently reject Blackness, largely as an assimilation technique.
@Jen,
? – as an assimilation technique? i guess i can only speak for africans, but i can assure you that those who are rejecting “blackness” are doing so mainly to hold on even closer to their culture from home, not to emulate standard “americanness” (read: white people). i’m not justifying this behaviour – i think it’s appalling the way certain expats from african countries (for the record, as an african citizen living in the USA i absolutely reject the term “immigrant” – if white people can come to MY country and call themselves expatriates, then i can damn sure do the same shyt) behave towards african americans, but the relationship does go two ways (african booty scratchers, anyone?). it’s just the fear of the seemingly unknown working. i think it’s important that instead of placing blame and pointing fingers, people of colour – no matter their history – come together to discover the intersections in their stories but also to celebrate the differences between them. cos while we’re quibbling, the 2520s are just laughing at our dumb a$$es. i apologise for sounding like a UN advert, but that’s just my $0.02 on the matter.
I’m neither quibbling nor pointing fingers.
It is what it is.
I honestly don’t care if people from outside of my culture choose to adopt it.
I intentionally didn’t get into attitudes black immigrants have toward Black Americans and vice versa. Getting into that would add very little to my point, so I purposely limited my comment to a discussion of assimilation.
@Jen,
i wasn’t suggesting that you personally were quibbling or pointing fingers – it’s just a general attitude i’ve noticed, so i apologise for not making that clear.
assimilation to a certain degree is necessary in the US as a means of survival, but – and i say this from a personal perspective – i pick and choose what i will subscribe to, as do many expat groups. africans in this country have by no means lost their african identity and traditions, and are still hugely successful.
another thing: i need americans to quit thinking that they’re so different to the rest of the world, that the values of “hard work, inclusion” blah blah blah are unique to the US and something the rest of us can’t get with. cos it’s not true. this may sound generalistic, but there are certain basic things we have in common simply by being of the same species. civilisations aren’t so radically polarised that they have no points of similarity. so what may seem like assimilation may just be people living as they would otherwise at home.
***side rant***: sometimes i feel as though i’m expected to feel like i’ve been granted a great honour by being given an american visa because my poor third-world a$$ would never experience the wonders of american society otherwise. i apologise if i sound somewhat mad, but it gets tiring being bashed for my “immigrant” status on the regular. ***end side rant***
“there are certain basic things we have in common simply by being of the same species.”
I very strongly agree.
“i pick and choose what i will subscribe to, as do many expat groups. africans in this country have by no means lost their african identity and traditions, and are still hugely successful.”
I think sometimes people don’t realize their actions are techniques or signs of assimilation when they are.
For example, the overrepresentation of African immigrants in America’s “most elite” institutions is itself directly connected to assimilation to the white majority culture. Black people go to college. We just largely choose HBCUs. I’ve read that 1/2 of the black women who hold doctoral level degrees in the sciences attended Spelman or Bennett. I’m sure a substantial remaining portion attended Howard, FAMU, Hampton, Tuskegee and the like. And I’m sure the majority of those who didn’t are black immigrants or their children. This is representative of an assimilative valuation of white American educational institutions.
What is, to a Black person, the undervaluation of HBCUs and other Black institutions is, in turn, a function of yet another assimilation technique: the devaluation and [attempted
] marginalization of Black people and our culture. You alluded to that before. And the othering of Black Americans as inferiors by black immigrant groups is very much an adoption of white American thinking.
Attempts to limit assimilation are very typical of first generation immigrant groups. But, obviously, they are largely futile. By the second generation, there is a loss of language and values and, of course, the immigrant perspective. Among African women, there is a pretty high exogamy rate.
The point is, were you to choose to make the U.S. your home, you will only be able to “pick and choose” for yourself. Your children will make their own choices. Most likely, they’ll keep and modify food, certain aspects of dress, contribute to the collective memory of your homeland in the Americas, but the culture you consider your own will be steadily worn away.
There is no question of this. Whether it is replaced by white American or Black American culture is the only real question.
@puff,
Also, I think it is important to understand that there is no group success in the United States without group assimilation. None.
It has never existed, and it certainly will not for African immigrants.
@Jen,
“But, in modern times, I the adoption of Black culture is voluntary. Many black immigrants very diligently reject Blackness, largely as an assimilation technique.”
I think the US can give many immigrants a harsh awakening which is needed lol. Your egytian classmate being shocked at people viewing her as ‘black’ does not suprise me. Maybe back in Egypt, she was able to look down on the darker skinned Egytians, but in America, reality sets in lol.
@postmodern pwnage,
Anyone brown is black to me. lol. Many middle easterners get the side-eye, double take.
@Jen, I had a similar experience to the one you’re describing. I used to work for an Egyptian surgeon who one day engaged in a conversation with me about race. I asked him what it was like being the first Black surgeon in his department at Emory, and he was like “I’m not Black!” So, I said “what do you think you are?” And he said “I’m white!” I just laughed at him. He went on to explain that his family did not have any Nubians (this was the term he used) and that he didn’t identify with Black culture at all. I told him in so many words that if his car stalled in Buford, GA on a dark night that the Klan would not claim him. We had a love/hate thing, so I could say stuff like that. But really, I just shook my head because I thought Egyptian=African=Black…guess not. (Although he could have passed for Middle Eastern.)
@Miss Patterson, Egyptian does NOT equal African. Nubians are very looked down upon, and they look down on Arabs lol. With North Africans, you have some who claim African, and others who claim Arab/White.
Personally I think geographically they are African, but that’s about it. I won’t however, tell a North African who claims African, they are not lol.
@postmodern pwnage,
Good question. I tend to draw anybody with Black blood into Blackness and have a problem with folks who tend to reject the Blackness that is them. It’s my own hang up.
“Blackness” is definitely hard to define to me. Largely because as proud as I am to be Black, that proudness is rooted in all the negativity that comes from skin coloring. It’s like a survival technique…saying I’m Black and I’m proud is a means of saying despite the bullsh*t tossed at me on a daily basis, I will survive, and that as long as I have love to give I know I’ll stay alive…
Now, every Black person doesn’t have the same experience. But at some point, whether you like it or not, all Black folks will come face to face with the fact they are indeed Black. Or at least that’s been my experience in life.
I guess I really don’t even know what it means to be Black outside of just learning that struggle, faith, and perseverance are what our lives have been built on and the will to still try to win a race even if the other team started at the finish line…
or having pride in every small victory, because given our history you dont know when or if the next one’s coming…
difficult question.
This here was a beautiful comment.
@Panama Jackson, that was lovely.
@Panama Jackson,
Go PeeJay!! I will survive!
@Panama Jackson, Dayum PJ… I didnt think you had a comment like this in ya.. being such a thug and all… and today with the kind of day I have been having, I really needed that……
aww, thanks y’all.
i’m still a damn G though Shay-D…just the kind that reads books and understands where I fit in society. an intelligent hoodlum…if you will.
@Panama Jackson,
intelligent hoodlum…if you will.
No you didn’t!!!!!
*Cues up Black and Proud for ya…lol*
@Panama Jackson, I feel ya PJ thats how I am oft classified… dont let the hood fool ya into forgetting im smart and dont let the smarts fool ya into thinking Im not hood…. Yes, I can fight and read and no you are never to old to give or receive an a$$ whoopin… LMAO
@Panama Jackson, I agree and its experiences that ultimately shape our identities. My belief is that the problem is, those subjugated are always responding to the attacks by the oppressor, rather that setting up new found ways of thinking. For example, Before Slavery, Africans had no concept of ‘race’. The Europeans taught us this. In order to resist, we adapted the role they gave us that reduced us to a color. Wouldnt we achieve more by resisting labels such as ‘black’? I dont know if youve read Noel Ignatiev’s work, but he is a history professor and a Russian that believes the concept of race is dangerous to any civil right movements. I dont know if that even made sense, but my point is, do you think it would be beneficial to not just be defined by our experiences but adapt new frameworks of viewing the world? Because outside of America, you are purely an American. lol. Any hate you will receive will mostly be attributed to the Bush doctrine lol.
As the mother of a mixed race child (who looks nothing like me) I really don’t have an answer for you. Scientifically everyone is of African descent since the oldest skeleton found in existence came from sub-saharan Africa. Also, with DNA testing becoming fashionable many supposedly white folk are finding out that there are some Africans hanging around in their family tree.
Truth be told, my son looks straight up white with some jew hair, it’s been implied on more than one occasion that folx might mistake me for the nanny or a kidnapper.
It’s strange we always seem to have this conversation in our community, I found myself explaining to my husband tonight what a “coolie” is.
We should ask Zoe Kravitz (daughter of Lisa Bonet and Lenny Kravitz) what she classifies herself as, since she is the daughter of two mixed folk.
@L,
” Scientifically everyone is of African descent since the oldest skeleton found in existence came from sub-saharan Africa. Also, with DNA testing becoming fashionable many supposedly white folk are finding out that there are some Africans hanging around in their family tree. ”
I think this would make excellent tv lol. The bbc did a documentary that did testing on british nationalists, and lets say some were far from pleased when they saw the results lol..
@postmodern pwnage,
haha. Some of their blood was not as blue as they thought? lol!
@L,
“As the mother of a mixed race child ”
I have this huge fear of reproducing with a white man. Because of my family tree, you are bound to get a yella, blue or green eyed and red headed kid in every generation. Bind that with a white man’s genes?
There will be no Imitation of Life scenarios in my home! (oh momma, I’m sorry.)
And not to mention the possibility that some “what the hell” – (c) Jen – could be born from that. lol.
@L,
hey pear, thanks for stopping by and sh*t
@The Champ,
I be hovering.
;p
i believe in magic.
Yo i am always fascinated when i hear from you Americans (no don’t get sensitive now i mean that in a nice way mmmmmkaaaay) about how much mixxt folks you have in yo country, wow that’s like news to me.
Here in S.A we do have portion of our populace mixed (as in .5 blak + .5 whites) we call them coloureds. Now when a coloured procreates with anotha coloured, we call that kid a coloured, with slightly diluted kaffir (S.A version of the word ni99a for those who dont know) genes tho. But down here we Darkies give the coloureds a hard time cause their predominately a nation of alcholics and sell-outs.
So to answer your Q, the kids are mix.
**Sidenote: Is bringing up issues of genetics right after you’ve just had a new baby seen as suspect in your country guys, or am i being too insensitive?…”Duck, dive”…***
@sisanda,
i’m not sure how to reply to this comment. i think i might try again later
My brother is “mixed”…he was adopted and his father is unknown but its clear he wasn’t black…and for a while when he was younger (kindergarten/first grade) you couldn’t tell him he was black…now that he’s older and been only around black ppl since he was in 2nd grade he understands it better…
Either way, as for classification…I would say they were black…idk if this sounds strange, but purely from my observation, I always saw that “mixed” or “biracial” kids were more accepted by blacks than by whites…not in all cases, cuz we all know of the girl with the “good hair” that was shunned by erry1 else or what have u…but in general, it was like fam unless they didn’t want it to be…
oh and… if “mixed”=black, then “mixed” + “mixed”= still black…in my mind at least
“I always saw that “mixed” or “biracial” kids were more accepted by blacks than by whites.”
I agree.
u know how to add and subtract. theys mixed kids.
@Liz,
thanks for stopping by, ms burr
P:
I think it boils down to a couple of things. And my opinion may be unpopular. But I’m strong. I can take it.
It depends on how your parents identify. Even if you look white, if your mixed parents black identify, you are going to look right foolish tellin folk you are white when your parents are checking “black” on government forms.
And it depends on you look. Race is visual – skin color, features. If you are 2x mixed, walking around looking like Nicolette Sheridan, I think you can claim whiteness. You just have to be prepared for the fact that, down the road, you may produce a throwback that reminds you of your ancestry.
@V.E.G.,
“Race is visual – skin color, features. If you are 2x mixed, walking around looking like Nicolette Sheridan, I think you can claim whiteness.”
My cousin is mixed (white/black) she mostly looks white. She’s blonde with blue eyes. She tells everyone she’s Black. People don’t believe her until they see her family…lol
@V.E.G.,
It depends on how your parents identify. Even if you look white, if your mixed parents black identify, you are going to look right foolish tellin folk you are white when your parents are checking “black” on government forms.
yeah this makes sense to me…i guess i’d just find it weird to find two mixed people identifying as white…
then again, perhaps those two would be made for eachother, at least until they got them a real colored baby…
Black man, Black woman, Black baby.
White man, white woman, white baby.
White man, Black woman, Black baby.
Black man, white woman, Black baby.
Hence, the fear of a Black planet.
HTH.
@Jen,
*raises tiny black power fist*
Let me ask you this:
Do you think that if mixties keep marrying up and having kids and on down the line, will people progressively become darker in skin tone?
I think yes. But like PeeJay, I am no geneticist. I’m basically hoping the economy improves so people can afford for me and my cohorts to care for their children, mixtie or not.
@PBG,
“Do you think that if mixties keep marrying up and having kids and on down the line, will people progressively become darker in skin tone?”
This has not happened in my family. Any brown children were born of relationships with non Creole folks. Don’t get me wrong, we have some browner folk in the family tree who were the product of ‘creole unions’ but they generally haven’t gotten much browner than tea with cream.
@PBG,
I should send you a link to one of my family reunion albums.
My grandmother on my dad’s side is Creole, and even though she did not marry another Creole person, both of her sisters did (one of them was widowed and also married a southern Black man).
When “mixties” marry “mixties” over several generations, you get people looking all kinds of ways. Very dark-skinned and very light-skinned people with all variations of hair and eye color and facial features.
@Jen,
Though it hasn’t presented in my family I have seen it. Grew up with some chocolately brown kids with blue eyes and straight hair. One sister was cute and the other ‘strange’ looking…
@V.E.G.,
We have a lot of the dark skinned/mixed features/light eyes people in my family.
I think they are pretty. What is ‘strange’ looking to me is when you get the people who have very African features, but are light skinned and have light eyes.
I’m sorry, but it is!!
@Jen,
The chick that played Hillary on Fresh Prince married a white man. She’s mixed. Her son has a perma tan. Her daughter looks like Hil’s black momma but has pale skin, blond hair and light eyes. She does look strange.
But one of the sisters I mentioned earlier…something went wrong in the gene meshing. She just looked weird. They both had the same complexion/eye color…but one got all the cute and other got the weird.
I saw that child! That is a perfect example of the “WHAT THE HELL??” I am talking about.
Maybe those children will look more normal in the future when there are more of them running around.
“one got all the cute and other got the weird”
@V.E.G.,
This is why kids have complexes.
@ DEV…This is why kids have complexes.
i agree and this is the thread that “got me” LOL…
i mean really??
Come the eff on. You know d@mn well we don’t go around referring to these children as strange-looking at Christmas, Thanksgiving or the family reunion.
@PBG, I think we would need to bring in the punnet square for this question lol
@Jen & V.E.G.
This is why I am always asking questions. I just need to know stuff and somebody will always help me out if I simply ask.
@Jen,
“Hence, the fear of a Black planet.”
Yes. I think it was in the “Isis Papers” where the author stipulated that Black folks can technically f*ck white folks into extinction. All we need to do is mate with them. Since whiteness is recessive, our Blackness would trump them and VOILA!
It’s an extreme thought but an interesting one…
@Luvvie,
Dayum interesting.
@Luvvie,
I find the thought of “f*ckin’ another race into extinction” highly…stimulating.
I’m just sayin’. Sounds like a good time.
interesting debate. as sisanda mentioned, here in South Africa, there’s an entire race group of mixed race people, (called coloured) dating generations and generations back – and there’s historically a tense relationship between them and ‘pure’ black people, mainly because white people effected the whole divide and rule strategy very successfully by giving the coloured folk more privileges than black people – with respect, Sisanda, i have to disagree with your reason why black people scorn coloureds. be truthful, the ‘drunken coloured’ thing is a stereotype, there are just as many alkies in the black community…. everything stems from the fact that the whites hooked up the coloureds a little more in the bad ol’ days of apart-heid, and they bought into it, at black peoples expense.
it’s interesting though, how in certain parts of the country, coloured folk are so much more invested in their mixedness, and will be quick to tell you about their irish/french/german roots – but the minute you ask about the african connection, they go all blank.
our history is also rife with coloureds breaking away from the black family, changing their names, all in the name of getting a better life . there were also a lot of light skinned blacks who applied for race ‘reclassification’ – and went through a battery of crazy tests to prove that they weren’t black. the history is so painful, it’s amazing to think people lived this way every day. and it’s not ancient history either, my mother lived it, and has horrific tales to tell.
in my own family – black- we have coloured connections, who’ve only started coming back now that it’s politically expedient to be black – growing up, i never even knew about the breakaway branch (my grandmother’s grandad was half white – and somehwere along the line, some of his kids broke away from the black side of the family and moved into the coloured community)
a few years ago, a 17 year old mixed race boy who could only speak siSwati, walked into a police station and claimed he was a whtie child who”d been kidnapped by the black family he grew up with when he was about 6. a looooong hunt and research later, it emerged that he wasn’t white (which was kinda obvious to most of us) – and that his biological mum was a black woman, a domestic worker, who’d had an affair with her employer – some swiss guy. she left the child with a friend of hers, and never returned. the friend raised him, but died – and her family then took him in.
what fascinated me was his INSISTENCE that he was white, despite the fact that for all intent and purpose, he was a little rural swati boy, he had no english, raised his entire life in a little village in mpumalanga, etc etc – but his whole thing was ‘these people stole me away from my white family’. when he found out the truth, he went on a drinking binge that still isn’t over – 6 years later….
this post is too long as it is, i won’t even get into the arguments i got into during my college years in the U.S. with other africans who were like ‘the struggle for equality in the U.S. isn’t our problem…” it just about made my head explode, the success of the divide and conquer tactic!!!
we have a saying in seTswana, ‘re batho’, literally translated means – we are people – but what it really means is ‘we’re all ONE people, we’re all in this together.’ i love it, planning to name my child that, one day, just to remind everyone, everywhere – at the end of the day, REBATHO…
@superwoman,
This has to be the most interesting comment post I’ve ever read on VSB.
REBATHO!! Yaaay!!
Thank you, Superwoman.
@PBG,
“This has to be the most interesting comment post I’ve ever read on VSB.”
co-signing
@superwoman, great points.
“this post is too long as it is, i won’t even get into the arguments i got into during my college years in the U.S. with other africans who were like ‘the struggle for equality in the U.S. isn’t our problem…” it just about made my head explode, the success of the divide and conquer tactic!!!”
As an African, born and raised in America, I cannot tell you how much this irks me. Being a part of both the African American and African communities, you constantly see the mis-education play out on both sides. I will come back to comment later, but I’m sure I am not the only one who has gotten into countless arguments with a fellow African for being unsympathetic to the struggle for equality here in America, and with fellow African Americans for not identifying with Africa at all.
@superwoman,
Thanks for this comment. I always love to hear another perspective from another country.
*2 thumbs up*
@superwoman,
Yey a bretheren!!!
The thing about coloureds being alkies is a long argument..too lazy right now, so we may tru to agree to disagree.
As for some coloured folk changing their names, and basically rebuking their black heritage, i co-sign on that sh!t.
But we are all one, we are all equall (some more equall than others)
**Sidenote: You Swati’s make the best weed i must admit, that Swazi Gold is too nice. IF i die, i wanna come back as the Swazi King, that ni99a basically owns all the virgins of Swaziland…f**k Sylar,that’s such a beautiful power,
@sisanda,
I’m Kenyan and I loooooooooooooooooooove Swazi Gold.
*making mental note of new brands of herbal refreshments*
i need christmas gifts for some of the herbally inclined in my circle.
@superwoman,
cosign, totally agree
@superwoman,
a few years ago, a 17 year old mixed race boy who could only speak siSwati, walked into a police station and claimed he was a whtie child who”d been kidnapped by the black family he grew up with when he was about 6. a looooong hunt and research later, it emerged that he wasn’t white (which was kinda obvious to most of us) – and that his biological mum was a black woman, a domestic worker, who’d had an affair with her employer – some swiss guy. she left the child with a friend of hers, and never returned. the friend raised him, but died – and her family then took him in.
what fascinated me was his INSISTENCE that he was white, despite the fact that for all intent and purpose, he was a little rural swati boy, he had no english, raised his entire life in a little village in mpumalanga, etc etc – but his whole thing was ‘these people stole me away from my white family’. when he found out the truth, he went on a drinking binge that still isn’t over – 6 years later….
this is one of the strangest and saddest stories ive ever heard. damn
@The Champ,
Doesn’t it sound like a lost story from Jean Toomer?
@Jen, who’s jean toomer? don’t worry – just remembered…
@superwoman,
One of the more popular Harlem Renaissance writers. One of my favorite short story/novella writers (along with Shirley Jackson, Roald Dahl and Edgar Allan Poe – I like my fiction dark). He is best known for the book Cane.
I just checked, and a lot of his stuff has the Look Inside feature on amazon.com if you want to check him out.
@Jen, thanku darl…will do.
@superwoman, wow superwoman, just wow! I’m learning a lot today.
@Miss Patterson, and everyone else – thanks for all the affirmation, so glad you guys found it interesting… race matters – we could go on for days…
@sisanda – i’m not swati, love – just lived there as a teen… i rep for botswana and gauteng maboneng….
the story about happy sindane – the little white boy who wasn’t – is indeed painful. he got run over by a pickup truck when he walked into the road, dead drunk, a couple of years back, his whole face changed from the accident -he’s just sad, sad, sad….
@superwoman, just when I thought the sindane story couldn’t get any worse!
@miss patterson, darling, the happy sindane story is a never-ending tragedy. so much exploitation of that poor confused child…
when they first discovered his parentage, dulux, this paint company, ran the most effed up ad campaign using him – the trend of their ads had been to use photographs of different scenario’s, and corresponding colours do demonstrate the diversity of their range…
like a pic of a white woman suntanning without sunblock, and then they’d show the related colours – pale pink/angry bright pinky-red, you see?…. they did the same kind of thing with happy sindane, alluding to what he thought he’d been (white), as opposed to what he actually was, racially…(brown)
it was so outrageous, i think it was the human rights commission who got involved, sued them and made them pay happy a chunk of money (which he promptly pissed away), and put him in this orphanage (which he ended up getting kicked out of because he was so unruly and wouldn’t observe curfew…)
eventually, the family who’d raised him ended up asking him to come home again, this ‘forgive and forget’ style TV show facilitated a reunion. his people were so hurt like ‘everyone thinks we’re these messed up folk, but we did our best – happy is a rebellious child who refused to believe he was one of us, and wouldn’t believe us when we told him where he was really from’
their whole thing was that he was just going through some teenage ish, and the whole issue blew up because of the race angle and the media frenzy around that. (not to mention the hordes of parents – a few white folk, too – who popped up claiming him…)
like africans will, they figured that all his confusion was coz he hadn’t undergone traditional rites of passage – i think it was circumcision, or the rituals done when a child is born… so they promptly organised for whatever they felt was lacking to take place… and i believe that’s where he is now – back in the bosom of the family who he tried to escape from.
the supreme irony of it all….
**Just throwing this out there..**
Do you ( the VSB nation) think mixed race african americans get preferential treatment from society (and/or the african american community) than darker skinned african-americans?
@aja,
*cough* light-skinned points *cough*
@shatani,
Uh oh…
@aja,
Are you American?
@PBG,
Why, yes I am. The reason why I asked this particular question is to see if mixed race people believe that they are treated more favorably than other african americans. Some people may think differently…
@aja,
Oh, okay. I had to ask.
So you do indeed know that the answer to your question is an unequivocal “H3ll yes”.
@aja,
Yes light-skinned women or men get the attractive by default benefit. Here in Detroit you can even see it in class. Historically lighter African-Americans have been accepted in the mainstream more than darker African-Americans.
@Humble_One, Hey fellow Detroiter!! I hear talks that the city might have to file Chapter 11! Not surprising at all. I need to stop through there and buy a city block of homes. Cus once the city dies…completely…and ghey white men discover it, I know property values will jump through the roof.
Hold up. What was the topic again??
@Hostess,
“I need to stop through there and buy a city block of homes. ”
houses for 5-10k …its all net literally and figuritvely..D town is about to make a BIG comeback after chapt 11.
@aja,
Light skin points can be negative points too, in my experience.
@aja, i think “light-skinned points” definitely exist in this country. growing up in the Burgh I saw this rule executed quite a bit. It even permeates our language to the extent that we’re on auto pilot. Say you’re playing matchmaker and the guy asks “so what does your friend look like?” and you respond “she’s got light skin and long hair” …this somehow equated to she’s fine and got a dope azz body. I once had someone told me that I wasn’t light enough [for them to date] and my eyes weren’t light enough. He was apparently disappointed by the description that his cousin gave of me which in the winter time in the Burgh was caramel-esque…but let’s face it, i’m just brown-skinned. The thing is my mother (who is light-skinned) had the opposite experience growing up in PA…she said during her dating age and into her early 20′s men were seeking brown skinned women. especially as you moved into the civil rights era and somehow darker skin tone equated to being down with the struggle. we’re messed up, aren’t we?
@Miss Patterson,
Yes we sure are…my grandmother was of mixed race (creole/indian) married my grandfather who was very dark skinned, then my mother *whos caramel-skinned as well* married my father who was dark brown and made a bunch of chocolate colored babies.. I guess they didnt want us to go thru when they did when they were younger..
In my family we have the “skittles” type of african americans (taste the rainbow) ..from very light dang near white to deep dark chocolate brown. Which is pretty awesome when u think about it. And we all have our different takes on how we were/are treated according to our skin color. Some loved it… some hated it..but i guess it made us who we are now.
@aja, I like that “chocolate colored babies”…I want some of those one day
@aja, ST shared the truth about light skinned points with the masses a little while ago at thebeautifulstruggler.blogspot.com.
Her analysis of Rihanna’s career success was genius. GENIUS.
@Jen,
***perfunctory site pluggage***
p touched on light skinned points here…
http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/wlsg/
…and i gave an example of lightskinned points here
http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/email-of-the-week-male-stock-options/
***end of perfunctory site pluggage***
@The Champ, no shame.
“mistress christine beatty, the patron saint of light-skinned points”
*dead*
She is a mud duck, ain’t she?
@Jen,
“She is a mud duck, ain’t she?”
I haven’t heard that term in YEARS!!! LMBAO
This may be a tad off topic but I really don’t care what folks classify themselves as, as long as they’re not one of them folks who choose to NOT identify with either race. You know the type…”I’m not Black, I’m not white…I’m just human. My race is HUMAN.”
GTFOH wit’ that shyt!!
@Monk,
here here! stop that bull, you know you somethin!
@Monk,
I feel you Monk….lol
@Monk,
What’s wrong with someone not wanting to be put in a box or labeled because of a very insignificant part of who they are? Especially when it’s not so… excuse the expression… black and white.
Honestly, I can understand someone not wanting to be associated with white people. And I can also understand someone not wanting to be associated with black people.
Besides, who get to decide who’s black and who’s white and what either of those things mean. Being human is just a little more well defined.
@Deviant,
If one doesn’t wish to be put in a box, thats there perrogative…it still doesn’t take away from the fact of what they are. To me, it almost makes it seem that such person is in denial if they don’t wanna own up to what they are.
Whether we like it or not, we do have a racial make up be it black, white, mixture, etc., so why be like, “My race is human”? If your excuse to that is not being put in a box, you might as well not even put yourself in that “human” box…just call yourself a mammal or animal or God’s creation.
***censoring my dust ruffles today***
@The Comeback Girl, (yes this message is to myself) lol..so i took a starbucks moment and since I still feel this way i feel compelled to share (removing some expletitives and dampness from the bed linen)
i don’t have much intellectually to contribute but im troubled by a conversation here about the way beautiful babies come out..deeply..mixed or otherwise.
Love is ultimately where you find it.
And while Black is Black, whether the world sees you as that or not, if you choose something else is it really that deep?
I have a real depeche mode way of looking at things at this point in my life “people are people so why should it be….”
My nephew is mixed. Although he’s a teenager now, as far back as I can remember he’s always called himself a Blaxican. My brother is Black, his mother Mexican. He started calling himself this when he was about 7. For all other purposes he’s Black, being raised in a Black household by my brother and being mostly around his Black side of the family, but trust he knows Spanish and can dance a mean cumbia. It’s real interesting…lol
I’m not saying you have to indentify with one or the other, it just seems that most people pick a side. Most people that I know of mixed race declare one side. Mostly the one you tend to look like more. You’ll never know they are mixed unless they tell you, or it’s obvious.
@miss t-lee,
Most people that I know of mixed race declare one side. Mostly the one you tend to look like more.
this seems to be the case with most people.
@miss t-lee,
I have a friend who calls himself a Polaxican (Polish and Mexican). Very interesting, indeed.
@Beez,
Wow. I’ve never heard this term, but I likes…lol
Kitkatquisha says ,as she sucks her teeth and clicks her acrylic nauls, “I got Inndiannnnn in my fammmm-lee”…. Sorry that has nothing to do with anything but it made me laugh on the inside because I don’t have much to contribute to the conversation today, I’ll check back in later..
@Relax, Relate, Alise,
you know whats funny? when king or smooth does one of those spreads/interviews with a video chick, and she names like 17 different ethnicities in her racial make-up, despite the fact that shes a black chick from gary, indiana
@The Champ,
LOL!!! You notice the “Black” is either smack dab in the middle of 5 ethnicities or dead last.
@The Champ,
wow… who knew your late night studying of king spreads & interviews would lead to an insightful comment one day. hmmm..
@The Champ,
Heeeeyyy I’m from Gary, Indiana….. I don’t have anything to add I’m just from Gary, Indiana. Then again that is part of why I loved the pootie tang movie cuz it got a shout out and was real minus the gorilla (it was prolly some 2520 that effed you up). Oh and I don’t like Michael Mann either. Cuz he said something in the extra features about Tom Cruiz’s character in the movie (shucks I can’t think of the name of it but Jamie fox and Jada Pinket was in it and Tom was a hit man), Well he said that Tom’s character was like some kind of an orphan from GI. smh Oh and then he gonna go and show the slumy errrieuh. smmickeyfickeyh
@WuDaMan,
(shucks I can’t think of the name of it but Jamie fox and Jada Pinket was in it and Tom was a hit man),
Collateral?
@wuda, that movie was shot and based in Los Angeles. what’s this about Gary? did Mann shoot a movie about Gary, Indiana?
@Miss Patterson,
No, Mann said that Tom’s character’s background was that he may have been an orphan born and raised in Gary. It’s in the dvd’s extra features. But now since I watched Badaasssssssss’ extra features off the dvd. I have to give him a lil cred for knowing Gary @ all since he has apparently lived in Chicago b4. I still don’t like that yignuh.
N TY T-Lee
@miss t-lee, Collateral is the right name of it.
Visually, the kid is probably Black. Genetically, the kid is Black cus the Motherland is where all humans come from. The end.
@Hostess,
so crakuhs is blakuhs too?
one of my former professors, she is now a dean at an Ivy league in New England, she is part Black, White, and Native American; she always said u claim the one that would get you the most benefits at the time. So during her entire academic experience she claimed Native American cause it paid for her entire education i.e. the alphabet she now has after her name. However she is also a card carrying member of her Indian Tribe **on a side note, did you know Indians in this country are the only ones that actually have cards, as in memebership cards to signify their membership or connection to their “race”. **
where was I?
My mixed neices and Nephews identify themselves as Hispanic thought they have primarily been raised by their white mom, however they have done research on their ancestral history and cultural history too.
Bottom line for me is identify with something but own up to everything
@Intellectual Hedonist,
Bottom line for me is identify with something but own up to everything
i get what you’re saying as a latina, but black americans aren’t allowed this luxury
@The Champ, I am well aware of my genealogical privilege, however as a black American you can do research that will get you at least a few generations back, but most black Americans don’t even do that.
My ex had traced his genealogy back to the last plantation his great great great great grandfather worked on. That is quite significant.
Then again there are some folks walking around who don’t know who their own daddy is (see Maury Povich).
@Intellectual Hedonist, Native Americans and the particular brand of effed upness they were dealt, is a whole, seperate post.
I feel my pressure actin up…
@overit, you are absolutely correct here my sister. Absolutely!
@overit,
That mess gets my pressure up too!!
I think to some degree this is a moot point, we are people. That’s it, black is a color it’s not who we are let alone we are brown in color. You could say your part of the African Diaspora maybe.
Also, when it comes to a mixed person, I think it ultimately depends on what they identify with. I have “white” mixed friends and I have “black” mixed friends based on how they identify themselves.
@J. McFly,
you know, i don’t think i’ve ever met a “mixtie” who had obvious black features, but still identified with white.
@The Champ, neither have I…i’d like to meet an individual like this and understand.
i have had a mixed chick scream me down b/c i identified with being Black and didnt’ tell everybody i was mixed. she was very upset at me and felt i was denying who I really was…half-white. lol. its so funny to me now that i think about it b/c i’d love to know what i felt like to be white for a day…
…but, um, that half -white sh*t gets totally drowned out by the fact that I’m ALSO half-black…and my color shines thru (thought not htat much shines thru, but i got some color!)
basically, i let my soul glo.
@Panama Jackson,
PeeJay, you’re brown enough. I’ve seen you regularly @ your club for nearly 2 years and never would’ve known you had a white Mama if you hadn’t said it here on VSB.
Khaki.
PJ,
Warning, some science shyt coming your way, but it is the only way to explain it.
From the genetic side of the house, race, color, hair texture, all of the physical characteristics/morphological traits of people nare due to multiple genes and gene expresssion such that IMHO, you cannot determine race based on genetics alone. Operationally, you cannot determine that a person is more one thing than another just based on their genetic background, how they look, etc. You could potentially have two people with the same basic genetic background and they look very different.
Remember Cher and Chastity Bono?
So race, IMHO, is totally a political/cultural/economic concept. As far as I know, and I have been dealing with genetics at various levels for many years, any attempts to classify humans/animals into different species/races/breeds is arbitrary when there is not a pure line (i.e., genetic mixing).
The question(s) might be in the whole scheme of things, what does it matter, why does it matter, and what are you going to do with the information once you get it?
@swamii
“The question(s) might be in the whole scheme of things, what does it matter, why does it matter, and what are you going to do with the information once you get it?”
This can be applied to so many things.
@swamii,
you know, maybe it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things, but truth is, everybody needs something to indentify with, even if its only minimal.
folks get some idea of self based on things like this. my guess is that most of the tragic mulatto mixed kids that are out there are that way b/c they had both of their parents trying their damndest to give them this mixed heritage when truth is, what is mixed heritage?
actually…you know why tragic mulattos exist?
b/c they get told that they’re not Black from their parents and get told that they ARE white too…
and Black people don’t like that sh*t. if you go out of your way to tell folks that you’re not Black, when you clearly are at least some part Black, you alienate the very folks who will be there when times get tough…
@Panama Jackson,
Maybe so, but although I am mixed a little up the chain, within my family we just accepted that culturally and by U.S. legal definition we were black, and accepted white and Indian blood just as a matter of fact. That in itself is accepting a mixed heritage. We accepted one as the main, but acknowledged others. Worked for us. Maybe the key is to pick one and stick with it while accepting that you are not “pure” anything. The guy who has contributed the most to our family history and constructing the “tree” is a white guy who, while working on his genealogy, discovered one of his great aunts was part black. That led to his extensive research, mostly on the “black side” of our family.
Many of my family could pass, and did for financial reasons but did not identify as white on a personal level, just to get over on Da Man. Being black was good enough for us.
The question(s) might be in the whole scheme of things, what does it matter, why does it matter, and what are you going to do with the information once you get it?
And these my friends is the heart and soul of today’s debate.
Ultimately, why does it matter?
LMAO!!! This is funny because one of my best friends is mixedfolks.com and married to a mixed man. They just had a precious little girl. So I was hoping you had an answer. I’m sending this to her to let her know the baby is Mo’ Mixed.
Vanessa Williams is mixed like that, two mixed parents. She was the first BLACK Miss America (and the first scandalized one too) so I guess I’d say black. That and I’m from the south where you don’t get to choose.
-OG
@OG,
Vanessa Williams is mixed like that, two mixed parents
i didnt know this
@OG,
That and I’m from the south where you don’t get to choose.
yeah, see thats my life story. wasn’t no choice. nobody even asked.
I meet children of mixed parents who associate with being black, where others associate with being white. I think it really depends on location, features, etc. The US has the one-drop black rule, but Brazil is the opposite. Also, genetics does strange things, like that one mixed couple in the UK who had those twins and one came out white with blond hair & blue eyes and the other was black with black hair, darker complexion, and brown eyes…
@Leila,
“genetics does strange things”
for whatever reason, this line just made me think of aborigines.
@The Champ,
I agree w/your statement here, Mr. Champs. Aborigines’ appearance always make me think harder.
@Leila,
Hey the English couple’s kids. Well the first set o twins was actually half bros. since she was impregnated by a dirty impregnator that had her mate’s swimmers and the last dude’s swimmers. But I have heard no mention of the latest set that came out. *shrugging shoulders*
@WuDaMan,
thanks for this…
“she was impregnated by a dirty impregnator that had her mate’s swimmers and the last dude’s swimmers”
**dry heaves**
no Diva Dust ™ for you, palomino…
@Leila,
Genetic reshuffling. Happens all the time.
In my opinion if you’re mixed, you’re black. I don’t know any mixed people who feel differently. And I know a plethora of biracial people including members of my family (I’m from Pgh, one of the country’s biracial capitals).
But in thinking about this subject, my opinion doesn’t really matter because I’m not biracial. The determination should be left up to the individual.
@Voiceofreason,
I’m from Pgh, one of the country’s biracial capitals
you know, there does seem to be more mixed (black/white) race people in allegheny county than anywhere else i’ve ever been. you also seem to find this more in the suburbs and in areas like the mon valley than in pittsburgh
@The Champ,
Why do you think this is so?
@Voiceofreason, the same is true of Erie, PA and Franklin, PA where my mother and her folks lived. It’s actually pretty amazing to see all the variations of mixed/black children in the neighborhoods she grew up in…quite beautiful actually. Perhaps Western PA was the first stop on the rainbow coalition bus.
@Voiceofreason,
i think one of the reasons behind this has to do with industry. the steel plants were the source of many of the jobs in the area, for black and white people alike. naturally, people tend to move to the areas where there are jobs, so, in places like mckessport and duquesne, you had black and white people living closer to each other than they would in the actual city. with that closeness came, well, you know the rest
@The Champ, i never considered the blue collar industry’s influence on race mixing. good work Champie.
@Miss Patterson, I love when people call The Champ Champie…
This topic and comments are very interesting and enlightening. I wish we could have like a videotaped roundtable discussion, send it to CNN and tell them to replace their version of “Black in America” with this one.
@V Renee,
With all of us discussing it would be like a crazy McLaughlin group remix.
@miss t-lee, “like a crazy McLaughlin group remix.
”
YAY…im eleanor…i already called it first…***skips out looking for Tony***
@The Comeback Girl,
All I know is I’m not being Pat Buchanan…lmao!
I might just be the special commentator for the week.
@miss t-lee
As for Pat Buchanan
1, 2, 3 NOT ME!
ugh. AMEN.
I dont know how to begin to answer your question. I think its lazy thinking for others to have to label a person as this or that. I know many people (some related) that fall into this category be it white+black, black + mexican, white/puerto rock + black etc. I just hope as time passes the need to label people as one thing or the other subsides. Of course I know this wont happen before I become fertilizer.
@Deviant,
Of course I know this wont happen before I become fertilizer.
yeah, we’ll all be gone by the time it happens, but i have no doubt that it will
@The Champ,
“yeah, we’ll all be gone by the time it happens, but i have no doubt that it will”
look at you all positive and what not
@overit,
i have to be at least once a week. its in my contract
***somewhat off-topic but still relevant question***
ok…its commonly known that european imperialist influence can be found every where in the world where there are people of color. my question is why? why did so many different countries of people of color allow for this to happen, without (to be perfectly honest) putting up much of a fight?
i wanna say because they had guns before everyone else did, but i’m not sure how factual that statement is.
@The Champ, “my question is why? why did so many different countries of people of color allow for this to happen, without (to be perfectly honest) putting up much of a fight?
”
religion and its-power of suggestion.
thats my answer to everything no a days…where are my car keys??
the puritans stole em.
@The Comeback Girl, the puritans were nuts! lol.
@overit, sho nuff. you can break somebody down and never lift a finger or a gun. The really powerful stuff requires that you don’t.
Now that’s “”torture” for dat @zz. lol
@The Champ,
on top of the guns they had disease… but still I am wondering how they managed to put their foot in damn near every race’s a$$…. even though they did try with the Chinese and ‘nem to no avail… *shrugging shoulders* interested to see the comments on this one….
@Relax, Relate, Alise, the Chinese invented gun powder so Europe wasn’t messing with them
@The Champ,
They got their guns from the Chinese.
My theory on that is the climate in which they lived forged a mindstate that did not exist in other countries. Yes, other countures conquered or even subjugated their brethren but none felt the need to leave to find greener pastures. Europe has a harsh climate. Most all of the places they went to conquer had better climates or a fresh supply of natural resources to exploit whereas everything in europe had to be scrounged and fought for. I could also guess that once they did venture out and see what other people living in ways they felt were primitive they felt those people were beneath them because thats exactly what they did on their own continent. No Europeans ever tried to conquer China or Japan because they felt they were more advanced than they were. They imported all of their stuff from there whereas they just took it from other continents.
@Deviant,
this still doesnt explain why we (with “we” being “our ancestors”) allowed for this to happen so frequently.
***before anyone gets all AP history on me, i know that the moors invaded italy (“othello” is my favorite shakespeare play) and that there are other instances of “darker” countries conquering “lighter” countries in history. i know we haven’t always played the victim, but it just seems like we’ve played that role disproportionately***
@The Champ,
I remember talking about this in History class in college. Most European countries sent in missionaries first. (read “Things Fall Apart” it explains this perfectly) The missionaries inadvertently break down the community structure by telling people all their beliefs and way of life are wrong and you should follow their religon. (The missionaries had good intentions. They thought they were helping. Their supervisors didnt have such good intentions.) Some people go along with this. When the invading forces come either they are not at full strength to defend themselves due to defection or they feel like there is nothign to defend themselves for because they have been told the invading force is also God fearing.
knowing that this is what happened has aided in my reluctance to just follow the religon of our ancestors overseers (did that sound too i dunno “kill 2520? thats not my intention)
@Deviant, I heart you for referencing “Things Fall Apart”. I’m not so sure about the missionaries having good intentions. They did, however the fact that they saw Black people as inferior, and by design, rules that out for me. A self-serving, ill intentioned, interpretation of the Bible was one of the main tools to support suppression of Black people all over.
@overit,
i forgot about that whole “africans were inferior savages thing”. my bad. Eff the missionaries.
@Deviant, lol how could you? that’s the crux of it all.
yeah eff the missionaries (and all ppl who proselytize knowing they don’t represent anything Godly)
@overit,
I’m goofy sometimes. I basically alluded to it in an earlier comment
@overit,
” A self-serving, ill intentioned, interpretation of the Bible was one of the main tools to support suppression of Black people all over.”
that very thing still screws people in this country today
@Deviant,
Amen.
@overit, “A self-serving, ill intentioned, interpretation of the Bible was one of the main tools to support suppression of Black people all over.
”
i think it WAS THE MAIN TOOL…all points lead back religion/conquest: capitalism, communisim, bourgeois/proletariates, delalyed gratification and notions of the “meek’s” reward being in heaven, the toil of work being “Godly”, indentured servitude/slavery etc..the karl marx of it all.
wow i just re-read this…and the shyt is deeply in some people’s DNA..deez folks still enslaved in the cranium…and don’t even know..wow.
@The Comeback Girl,
You’re tellin’ some truth up in here today, CBG!
@The Comeback Girl, I agree! marx called religion the opiate of the people. high five fellow marxist lol
@Deviant,
“knowing that this is what happened has aided in my reluctance to just follow the religon of our ancestors overseers (did that sound too i dunno “kill 2520? thats not my intention)”
I feel the same way about religion in general. I do believe in God, I identify myself as a Christian because it makes sense to me and seems to be grounded in historical facts (as far as what has been written in seperate instances) but I’d venture to say that 95% of the bad things that man has done to other men were based on religion or religion was used to incite people into stupidity (George Bush’s crusade). I believe in God, I dont believe in man interpreting God’s word.
I have always found it odd that black folks in this hemisphere cling so tightly to a religion that was used to justify their oppression. In Latin America, according to the grandmother, masses were given in Latin back in the days. So here are a bunch of people praying in a language they do not understand led by a man who has probably got the hots for one of the alter boys . . . I just can’t be at that party (anymore).
No offense to you guys that still go to that party. . . I’m just saying.
@IVR, I can emphathize with Deviant’s statement. I think the problem with religion is that people are not really practicing any religion. I was listening to the Michael Baisden show one time, and there was a guest pastor. They asked him if they thought America would ever be ready to elect a non-Christian president, his reply was “I don’t think we ever elected one to begin with”. I agree, anyone who thinks that what has been done in the name of Christianity was what Christ lived for, or is the religion God sent down has a real problem.
My view on religion is that if the followers of a religion were a representation of the religion, nobody would practice anything. People who claim to be Muslim are a hotter mess than Michael Jackson, Catholic Priests (and I’m TRULY sorry for this) have made something lawful for them (sex) unlawful and thus end up abusing little kids, Judaism is seen as the wedge between peace and the Middle East.
None of these books really espouse the nonsense done in the name of them. I think that is the most important thing to hold on to, there should be no middle man between you and God.
So I still go to the party, I’m just hosting that sh*t, and I hired a big guy to stand at the door and screen people. Only normal people can come to my party.
@overit,
“None of these books really espouse the nonsense done in the name of them. I think that is the most important thing to hold on to, there should be no middle man between you and God. ”
But even the book itself . . . can you really claim to have faith in something that man has altered so drastically? At the council of nicea* (sp?) where a bunch of priests gathered and made decisions on what Christians were to believe . . .ehhhh. . that’s questionable. (not quoting the DaVinci Code but I was told this from my new testament history professor)
@IVR,
While I grew up in a household where the Bible, Torah, and Quran were on the same shelf, being Muslim (the resident Muslim according to PBG lol) I think I’m most suited to answer questions about Islam.
Regarding the Council of Nicea, that is beyond questionable, and where my confusion with Christianity (as it is practiced in modern times) starts. As a Muslim, I do believe in Jesus, Christianity, and Judaism as all being part of the same message,
Islam being the youngest of the 3, is seen as the final message. This does not include the New Testament though. There is ample evidence that the New Testament was written in part by men, and that I see as being problematic. Whose agenda is this?
I do think though, that faith should never be a blind following and not such a rigid one either. I don’t think the Council of Nicea is a requirement of faith. Most everything in Christianity meshes with my beliefs, except for little Brown Baby Jesus lol. Now, I love him and he knows my heart, but I believe he was a prophet, a very highly revered prophet.
God is love. I think if you focus on that, and realize that faith is necessary in life, then you’re fine.
@overit, “God is love. I think if you focus on that, and realize that faith is necessary in life, then you’re fine.”
Thank you, I should be fine then . . . my issue with the whole thing even in ancient times if the book is a literal translation is that the Jewish people saw bushes burning and speaking, rivers parting, bugs fall from the sky by the bushels after someone told them that it was going to happen and they still didn’t believe? Pre David Blaine I don’t see how anyone would look at these signs and be like . . .nah yo, I dont believe you . . . It seems like hyperbole to me but is not taught as such. I have faith in God though, so Im good.
@IVR, “No offense to you guys that still go to that party. . . I’m just saying.”
none taken…i go to the party and hardly ever tardy…i just got the “glitter” debriefing.
@The Comeback Girl, that’s right, “funky freshed, dressed to impress, ready to party”.
@overit
wit my bible lookin oh so fresh tryna make Islam, Christianity, Tao, Buddahism-mesh…yes yes. lol
@The Comeback Girl, I love you for theHousewives of ATL reference.. Tardy to the Party.. or am I wrong?
@The Champ,
The religion came first but there were also the traitors. In Kenya with our many tribes, they fought among themselves and some just wanted to trade with the British. Then as in now you don’t rock the boat if a man is providing your bread or in those times your meat. When the British came to Kenya in the 1800′s they had heard alot about the Maasai. A fierce tribe that killed, raided other tribes and killed lions. (gotta represent I’m half Maasai )
However the reality when they came was not that an epidemic of small pox had decimated the population and there was a political division among the Maasai.
The spiritual leader the Laibon….( I forget his name) had just died and his sons were fighting for leadership . One of the sons Laibon Lenana decided to side with the British to help him with guns so that he could fight his brother’s faction and be appointed leader of all the Maasai. He did this and his brother migrated into what is now Tanzania. The flip side was that the British took our land and the land of other tribes contributing to the current land issue that was in part responsible to the violence earlier this year. Christianity yes, played a big role but the 2520 was bright he started with trade alongside the missinary and used self enrichment to appeal to leaders which is how you explain how slavery in West Africa went on with the acceptance of local leaders. Raiding neighbours and selling them off to go on plantations was just business. Something that continues today in other forms……….
@The Champ,
I think a lot of it has to do with European imperialists’ mastery of divide and conquer. Before they arrived on the scene these “countries” as they are recognized now did not exist. Tribal and ethnic groups were their own sovereign entities with their own laws and traditions. Some of them got along well. Some had ‘an understanding’. Some just plain didn’t like each other.
Europeans arrived on the scene and twisted these naturally existing differences and divisions to their own ends–mainly the subjugation of the people and the control of natrual resources. They redrew the face of the Continent and slapped their own names on it Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) anyone? The Gold Coast? The Ivory Coast?
. And now, you have people who historically did not see themselves as one people/nation being forced to behave as such for the sake of their colonial masters. And to make sure it stuck, they would select the group they saw as most accpeting of or more easily converted to their ideas (religion/government/ etc) indoctrinate them and raise them to the level that would be equated with “overseer”
Now that imperial colonialism has been abandoned for neo-colonialism, these historic divisions are being used to create the image of “war torn” “unstable” countries that are utterly incapable of governing themselves
So why didn’t they get it together, get over divisions and ‘fight the power’? You try making people who have been at war with each other for generations get along. Some people did get it together. They are the more stable countries. However, those bonds are tenuous at best. Just let one group become the majority in government or hold more economic power than another and see if old wounds aren’t re-opened and played out upon the international stage
Some weren’t able to get it together and they are held up as the example of corrupt, ineffectual and in desperate need of salvation by their former imperial masters.
@blackberry molasses,
“I think a lot of it has to do with European imperialists’ mastery of divide and conquer. Before they arrived on the scene these “countries” as they are recognized now did not exist. Tribal and ethnic groups were their own sovereign entities with their own laws and traditions. Some of them got along well. Some had ‘an understanding’. Some just plain didn’t like each other.
Europeans arrived on the scene and twisted these naturally existing differences and divisions to their own ends–mainly the subjugation of the people and the control of natrual resources. They redrew the face of the Continent and slapped their own names on it Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) anyone? The Gold Coast? The Ivory Coast?”
so basically, they were just better at fighting than we were?
@The Champ,
theier way of fighting was just better, yes. Plus they werer playing a game none of thsoe peoples was familair with. Its like they were playin Texas Hold Em with 5th graders that were used to playing Go Fish.
@Deviant,
“Its like they were playin Texas Hold Em with 5th graders that were used to playing Go Fish.”
thing is, this way of thinking alludes to the thought that we’re intellectually inferior…that, despite the evidence, we didnt/couldnt/wouldnt comprehend what was being done to us, on our own turf
@The Champ,
They were cheating and then sayign we were stupid for not figuring it out. Ba$tards. Now I feel like I just watched Rosewood.
@The Champ,
I wouldn’t say intellectually inferior, simply unprepared for that level of “devilment”, as my Big Mama would say. And yes indeed, it was evil.
@PBG
“I wouldn’t say intellectually inferior, simply unprepared for that level of “devilment”, as my Big Mama would say. And yes indeed, it was evil.”
We werent prepared is sadly true. Althought I disagree with the ‘evil’ or ‘devilment’ part of it lol. Its human nature and we like to dominant things. Lets not forget Africans were enslaving other Africans way before the Europeans arrived. Europeans didnt colonize nor enslave because they genuinely thought Africans deserved to be, but because of economical gains. Religion and Race just helped make the road more clearer. Its kinda like how the world is indifferent to the suffering in sub saharan africa. One assumes that Africa=poverty, so its just the way things go over there. Europeans thought , “oh but they are not like us, so its okay to expoit”.
@The Champ,
“so basically, they were just better at fighting than we were?”
psychological warfare is a b*tch.
that was not our concept of how wars and battles were won, so it was new and they didn’t even realize they were playing into the hands of their oppressors.
Deviant and Overit cited it above… religion and breaking down people on a spiritual and psychological level was key in how this whole thing worked.
once your mind and your spirit are weakened, the rest is a cake-walk.
@blackberry molasses, there are so many documents I have read (written by the main architects of apartheid in S.Africa), that explicity stated how to successfully break a nation, and it started with psychological warfare, next were the men.
@overit, it was very systematic, planned, and calculated.
Something our resistance and fight for equality has not been.
@overit,
i agree. add to that the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade which removed valuable members of society and created instability and ripped families apart.
they created the perfect storm
@blackberry molasses, right.
sigh.
@blackberry molasses,
I read somewhere wherein they described how they broke slaves. They take the alpha male of the group (father, grandfather, elder) and basically render him helpless in front of his family and the entire group. Breaking him basically sapped everyone’s will to resist.
k… this whole thread is awakening the ABW in me. Dangerous territory, I tell ya.
@blackberry molasses,
I slapped a cracker on my lunch break
Imma have to try really hard not to start slappin’ folks… can’t help mean muggin people though.
btw, anyone know when “Slap A Co-Worker Day” is this year?
The urban legend of Willie Lynch!
@overit,
Can you list some of those documents and where I can find them. I love this type of info. This stuff helps you understand the current world.
@Humble_One, yeah I can, I’d have to do a little digging, not sure if you want to leave your e-mail addy on here, but I can e-mail them. Or, I can come back and put it on here when I do find them.
Up to you:)
@blackberry molasses,
“that was not our concept of how wars and battles were won, so it was new and they didn’t even realize they were playing into the hands of their oppressors.
Deviant and Overit cited it above… religion and breaking down people on a spiritual and psychological level was key in how this whole thing worked.
once your mind and your spirit are weakened, the rest is a cake-walk.
Tell it, BBMo’.
@The Champ,
read the book “Guns, Germs and Steel” – it discusses how global climates affected the development of various regions and therefore impacted who colonised who (Europeans benefitted from the Fertile Crescent, for example, and got lots of easily domesticated animals – we got zebras). i’m oversimplifying this to a ridiculous extent, but really, read the book. dude speaks the truth.
@puff,
I remember my senior year of college they started the Pre-Freshman Reading Program (or whatever it is called) and this was the first book chosen. As an RA I too was required to read it and have discussion groups with my residents (I was an RA in a 75% frosh building).
The uproar this book caused was ridiculous. Truth be told, I never made it through the whole thing (a sista was busy trying to make sure she had a JOB upon graduation–then 9/11 happened).
I need to go find it and re-read it. I know a lot of people had an issue with the author identifying people who lived on the continent north of the Sahara as not-African/non-Negroid…
@blackberry molasses,
“Before they arrived on the scene these “countries” as they are recognized now did not exist. Tribal and ethnic groups were their own sovereign entities with their own laws and traditions.”
GOD, YES. This fact has such an important role in the continuing hold white people have on EVERYBODY. The whole freaking world is operating on their terms right now. The whole world. It can be so difficult to explain this and its effects to people when most people don’t even view this as problematic. It’s like they think nation-states are as inherent to human existence as conception and childbirth.
@The Champ,
To allude to Guns, Germs and Steel – because the white man had the cargo.
@The Champ, Great question.. and I hope not to offend but I think if you look at the pattern and the areas affected it boils down to intellectualism. 2520′s were up on the powers of mental persuasion and trickery before anyone else I am not saying that the people of the areas were dumb in fact they were not but they were trustworthy….I remember reading “Things Fall apart” in highschool and watching Shaka Zulu… goddayumit.. I been mad every since…
OK so I read most of this thread and it was real deep! Intense even.
For a comedic interpretation ***not safe for work*** please see the following from Eddie Izzard. start watching at 2:33 for my point. When I first saw this it was so true and hysterical at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6omQ5JjjLsE
@The Champ,
What we also forget is that in our terms it might seem like such a long time but in terms of Human History, the past millenium is a drop in time.
History is cyclical in nature. When, Genghis Khan was conquering or the Egyptians were, the Europeans as a people were almost nonexistent.
Of course this is a highly simplified version of it but you get my drift.
“I’ll leave the debate alone on Black men dating white women, mostly because I really don’t care”
Just wondering why the B in black gets capitalization, but the w in white doesn’t, unless it’s starting the sentence. I mean, they are both adjectives, and both a race as well…so why aren’t they treated the same.
Also, I agree with Voiceofreason. I think the determination should be left up to the individual. Also, my opinion doesn’t matter because I’m not biracial.
@jg, Haven’t white people gotten enough over the years? They don’t need any handouts of capital letters. Kinda like they don’t think we need reperations.
@jg, you know, I tend to capitalize Black because I view it as a culture as much as I do a race. plus, i like to add a little spice to Blackness.
@Panama Jackson,
Me too. More precisely, I view us as a “nation.” Nationalities are capitalized.
Black coffee, no sugar, no cream
That’s the kind of girl I need down with my team
Black coffee, no sugar, no cream
That’s the kind of girl I need down with my team
Black coffee, no sugar, no cream
That’s the kind of girl I need down with my team
Black coffee, no sugar, no cream
It’s just the way I like it
I need a girl who ain’t scared to scrap
Someone who got my back
Gotta be a dark skin a light skin
Like the type of girl that stays busy all day
But when the sun goes down
She’s my sexy soufle
I think Heavy D & The Boys are relevant still.
Random I know. You’ll live.
@overit,
I heart you for bringing up Heavy D.
Kudos to you.
@miss t-lee, and i heart you for just being you
@overit,
It’s a love fest!!
@overit,
I got nothing but looooooooooove for your comment….
@Relax, Relate, Alise,
We got our own thang…
@miss t-lee,
Diddly, diddly, diddly deeeeeeeeeee……
@Relax, Relate, Alise,
@overit,
I think Heavy D & The Boys are relevant still.
*high-five*
@Beez,
Hey Beez!
*high-five*
@overit, you’re hilarious….
@overit,
i l <3 you for this… truly i do.
@blackberry molasses, i heart you too bbmo, now tell us more stories!
@overit,
I’m like the typical African grandmother. You can’t just ask me to tell a story. They come of their own volition… like visions or something.
@blackberry molasses, lmao ok.
*sitting indian style, patiently waiting*
@blackberry molasses,
I shall sit and wait for them. I love a good story, especially from a Grandmother.
*sigh & misty*
Let me start by saying, any mention of that scene in the Best Man where Morris Chestnut enters the room, makes the lights in my office go dem, Prince’s “Darling Nikki” mysteriously starts playing, and I am in a cage dancing around in hotpants! Moving on! I come from a family that is extremely mixed, black, chinese, puertorican! Thanks to the Virgin Islands crosswinds this lovely concoction of races were entertwined. However, I am convinced that I am just black, I don’t know how to make fried rice, and I still have to work on my outward turn in Salsa. I do make a mean Mac and Cheese though. So all you mixies, just face it Ya Black!
@Mme. Editor-in-Chief,
any mention of that scene in the Best Man where Morris Chestnut enters the room, makes the lights in my office go dem, Prince’s “Darling Nikki” mysteriously starts playing, and I am in a cage dancing around in hotpants
………………………………………………..
@The Champ,
I’m not ashamed!
@Mme. Editor-in-Chief, that is SO weird. the same thing happens to me!
@Mme. Editor-in-Chief,
“work on my outward turn in Salsa”
Salsa is black music . . . coined in New York City, but the rhythm (and many of the pioneers) is black . . . so please work on your outward turn and meet me in Mango Mike’s tomorrow. You can always tell black music in latin america because it looks and sounds sexy . . . if people are jumping around too much, black folks had nothing to do with it . . .
Random arse question
Even though I messed up my foot over the weekend (long story), should I go see the Black Sheep/Nice & Smooth show tonight and suffer the consequences tomorrow?
I’ve been waiting for this show of a few weeks and I’m determined to make it even though I’m having a hard time walking…lol
Everyone’s telling me no…what say you?
@miss t-lee,
you should go and sh*t
@The Champ,
I’m about 88% sure now.
@miss t-lee,
“Everyone’s telling me no…”
but my bodyyyyyyyyyyyyyy is tellin me yeeeeeeeeeees. OK, seriously, you def should go. You only live once and that sort of thing.
@overit, you’re a daggone fool….(i don’t wanna hurt nobody but there’s something i must confess…..that song stuck in my head now…thanks overit, i’m gonna get you back)
@Miss Patterson, i do what i can:)
@overit, I’m jamming “Strobelite Honey” right now and I’m getting more and more amped…lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI7Z6W2kp1Q
@miss t-lee, yesss! lol. i think i will e-join you.
@miss t-lee, yeah. go.
panama says so.
@Panama Jackson,
Yep–I’m going!!!
And I talked real nice to the manager so I can get some seating.
::doing the happy dance::
@miss t-lee,
Go Miss T-Lee and get on the good foot, word to James Brown.
@PBG,
Thanks! T Minus 5 hours until…lol
Red + Blue = Purple / Purple + Purple = Purple
white + black = mixed / mixed + mixed = mixed
LMFAO
Im mixed but I like to consider myself as simply “brown”
all of a sudden I’m not okay with scrolling all the way down to leave a comment… you should feel some what of a celeb-black huh? Well I’ve been asked all my life ” what are you ” and in my head I’m thinking..uhmmm black according to my birth certificate. But if MIXED was a race where do you think it would fit in as far as a social class.. before or after black. You know the KKK’s don’t like us “shit-color” folks as my sister calls it but then again I think Obama might have gotten credit for his white side…so where do I fall.. somewhere around mexicans or a little bit before regular black folk??? In my opinion if you were born in America you are mixed. End of story.
Go B.
@Go B,
In my opinion if you were born in America you are mixed. End of story.
True dat.
oooooo, I love this topic
Thanks Panama. Anyways, I am a mixtie. My daddy is black and my mama is white. I grew up in nyc with a bunch of other mixed kids, so unlike the south, I did have the choice of calling myself biracial. My elementary school was mostly white. Any children of color were like me, mixed. I always knew I was different compared to the rest of my classmates, but it was never an issue I stressed. The neighborhood I lived in was very liberal and accepting. My parents raised me to rep both sides. (I am so proud 
) It wasn’t until middle and high school where I came into contact with more kids of color and I would always be asked about what side I identified with more. I would always answer “both, is that a problem? “My family experience was more white. My mother’s family are the ones that live in nyc, so those were the people I was always around. I only saw my dad’s family when we went to SC for the summers and Christmas. However, I love and embrace my black features. I love my caramel skin and curly, long hair. I absolutely love being my father’s daughter.
So to all of this I say… I am so proud to have the best of both worlds. So corny, but true. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
@laylah,
“I grew up in nyc with a bunch of other mixed kids, so unlike the south, I did have the choice of calling myself biracial.”
This must be either Staten Island or Manhattan (in the middle) because that place is the most segregated living situation I have ever seen. (except for your adventurous 2520 and asian every now and then)
@IVR,
it goes both ways. staten island is actually really segregated. up until a few years ago, harlem and washington heights was also. that is rapidly changing. there are other parts of the boros that are really diverse and have been that way for a while.
@laylah, “it goes both ways. staten island is actually really segregated. up until a few years ago, harlem and washington heights was also. that is rapidly changing. there are other parts of the boros that are really diverse and have been that way for a while.”
I said Staten Island because I can count the number of times I have been there on one hand so I don’t know anything about that place . . . I am talking about back in the days when I was growing up (90s) . . . back then if u named an area in Brooklyn (or pretty much any other part of NYC) I could tell you what kinda people lived there . . . last time I went home I saw caucasian women walking slowly on my block . . . gentrification is a MFer!
@laylah,
Alicia, Alicia Keys – is that you, girl?
@laylah,
You sound like you just be jumpin’ rope w/rainbows and riding on the backs of glittery unicorns all day long, w/your long curly hair billowing behind you. Carefree n’ all that.
Would say that your cultural upbringing afforded you this wistful state of mind? In all seriousness, I am not feeling the weight of being Black from you that I do from my mixtie friends that were raised in the same culture that I was.
@PBG,
i’m sure this is all due to my upbringing. sure, i have heard the occasional stupid racist comment but honestly (and i really don’t mean to sound like i sh** marshmellows) i haven’t let myself become that bothered because they always came from really ignorant, fugly people. i just took it for what it was. i have been retold countless times of what my father went through growing up in the south. i can try and feel that all i want, but the bottom line is, i didn’t experience that. he did. i try and fathom what it would have been like. im not going to sit here and act like i grew up with the weight of the world on my shoulders because if i did, i’d be lying.
Good for you Laylah, I think this is ideal. At the end of the day, you cannot hate something that is you.
And if that’s your real name, I LOVE it. Coincidentally that almost my name lol. Its beautiful though.
and what about mulatto? when do u become that?
@ladebelle,
i’ve never researched this, but i have been told that the actual meaning of mulatto is a cross between a donkey and a mule. if that is the case, i have never and never will become that.
@ladebelle and layla, the word mulatto has Spanish origins, its what they called the mix of native Indians with the Spaniards. the word mula in Spanish means mule (which is a hybrid of a horse and donkey).
When we were kids calling someone a mulatto even in jest, would get us a nice little backhand across the mouth from the closest adult
@Intellectual Hedonist,
thank ya for the tidbit
now i can school someone else.
i’ve often wondered this…just because i wonder about many things. but i would think that at that point the child would have to self-identify as multi-ethnic just to ensure that they are not disregarding any of their history. however majority of the mixed children that i know claim themselves and their offspring as black….but who knows really…
Hey if Sammy Sosa can be ‘white.’ So can n e body. I don’t really wanna comment so there it is. Take that the table.
@WuDaMan,
you done did it here Panama. Everybody’s comments are sooooo long. It’s outrageous. What would the children be AWESOME. The mélange of having fervently melanin dosed integument system is incredible. (great for attracting the sun’s rays n protection of it’s radiation) Not to mention having the nerves of the melanin deficient. Since they don’t attract the sun’s rays so much they are more adept to handling colder temperatures. My point of course you wanna know that I mean to empower, extol and celebrate the +s in us all.
I can remember having a dream in the second grade. My first daily interactions w/ the 2520s. (you see I’m from Gary a real chocolate city). Because I had to change schools. Well call me mesmerized by the power cuz I luuubed her. Back to the dream. I dreamed that we got it on had a zebra skinned baby. And this baby would walk the wall that divided black n white and (all Berlin wall coming down n shyt) united the world. But my fav part was getting it on w/ her. Come to think of it I had a crush on all my female teachers up until she left us(4 real she liked my class so much she went to teaching 3rd grade too then she left).
Ah well bibbity bobbity boo.
It appears that most of our reference points are limited to the last 500-600 years. The majority of human history was dominated by melanin dominant beings, primarily Afrikans. All, and I mean all races are descendants and creations of the Black Woman. Every European can go back 1,000 years and find they will find their parents were Black, or maybe I should call them by their true names…Moors. Dominating all of Europe for 1,000 years while many of the Europeans were taking baths once a year, eating babies, killing their women, and couldn’t read, …”WE raised them up” Thus, the bottom line is mixed is not the issue and should not be considered a sufficient label. It’s all about what bloodline you claim. Do you honor your original mother and father or the prodigal sons and daughters?
@julesamen,
Daddy…is that you masquerading around on VSB?? Who taught you how to use the Intrawebs???
In other totally unrelated news…
Does anyone have a PSN ID?
The Deviant is in search of foes and adversaries alike. Respond at your leisure.
mindofadeviant@gmail.com
Completely un-related but two things just came to my mind:
1. The title of this post reminds me of the scene in the Boondocks when Uncle Ruckus snatched Jasmine out of the seat at the theatre after she Grandad and the boys snuck in to see Soul Plane II. “You li’l half n half!!!!”
2. I remember seeing a performance by Amiri Baraka in college when in one of his monologues he said something to the effect of “… the devil came down to Earth and created Europe…” and the 2520′s in the audience were oblivious to what he just called them…
i digress women employ chic logic.
a [dot] k [dot] a.
This has been by far, my most enjoyable VSB.com experience.
I just finished reading the article on Kidada and Rashida. Very interesting perspective from each of them. I think my children will have a very unique experience, I don’t know if it will be similar to the Jones girls, but my mother laughs at the fact that I have given birth to a rainbow. My eldest child is brownskinned (paper bag brown), my middle son is high yella (pink lips and all) and my baby is what many would consider white (peach complexion, turns red when angry). They will all have different experiences. I think classifying black as an ethinicity is purely an American thing. Black at it’s most basic is a label that has been glommed onto a group of people whose physical features are African (although I have seen many Africans who look like my baby son). Black is not a land, language or really a culture for that matter. Here in America, African-American people have made it a culture because we really had nothing else to identify ourselves with. When we were brought here, holding onto our African culture was brutally suppressed by our masters and we lost our connection with the continent that birthed us. When you speak with people of color (black folx) who are not American they typically identify with their land, language and culture, which for many African-Americans is interpreted as standoffish or not wanting to be black. However, when you come from a country where everyone else looks like you and people who look like you run your country and are on the money you use to purchase things, saying you are black and proud is a moot point. It is also arrogant of us AA’s to assume that just because someone looks just like us, they should automatically call themselves black. That’s just as narrow minded and racist as the Europeans who labeled us black in the first place. My grandfather thinks West Indian black folks think their better than us AA folx over here, because many times they will say I am Haitian, Trini, Jamaican, before black even crosses their lips. He thinks it’s offensive, but he is from Georgia and thinks chitterlings is a food group, so I digress. Anyway, in America black is a unique identity and over time we have embraced a word which has no connection with a land or a language as our culture. As I got older, I started to question it all (not my blackness), but these terms that we have been given which we wholeheartedly embrace as an identity that kind of keeps us in a box. When you look at peeps from the West Indies and Brazil, they were allowed or rebelled or whatever and a lot more of the African culture was retained. There are customs today that are a direct link to Africa, New Orleans may be an exception. My mother pointed out to me that the parade after death is Ghanaian or West African (please correct me if I am wrong). However, that does not mean that any of these people have not been severely affected by the divisive race tactics of the oppressor. India, Brazil and America (to name a few) are affected to this day by light is right. Anyway, I think the best thing an AA can do is travel abroad, that really opened my eyes on race and matured me. When I was in Israel there were many people who looked just like me (Ethiopians). Many of them would never classify themselves as black, especially as a Nationality, because it isn’t. I am also not naive, racism and classism exists everywhere the European has set foot, however when you travel abroad, you realize that there is far more to us than just skin color. We are connected with a continent, with an ancient history, full of thousands of languages, infinite shades of color and people who are generally proud of their tribe, their language and their heritage. I met a (black) man in Israel who could trace his heritage from when Israel was a part of the Ottoman empire! I think we spend too much time in this tiny and relatively young country obsessing about race instead of traveling the world and connecting with people who will identify with you because your skin is just as brown as theirs and learning about the ancient and magnificent history of our people. I have traveled, been embraced, by people who were strangers to me other than the fact that we looked like we could be in the same family and have sat at their feet, fascinated and awed by the stories they have had to tell and in turn sharing my own story. (runon sentence I know)
@L,
If this comment was food it would be some fried plantains with a side a grilled just-out-of-the sea fish.
Beautiful and Delicious!
forgive me! that was really long.
@L, “forgive me! that was really long.”
Long but worth the read. BTW Although most black folks in this hemisphere (outside of Afro Americans) identify with their nationalities first, most also call themselves black I believe.
i think the white race and the black race will eventually become one anyways,so what does it matter?
You know, I had to do a Pundit square to figure that all out…lol….
@genius khan, Contain yourself!
@overit,
I don’t think he can. Nor do I think he should. I love all that Khan-speak and over-my-head intellectualism.
Keep it comin’, Khan.
@PBG, lmao, I have come to appreciate Khan speak, and I find myself hearing him, then believing him later.
Talk black to me.
@genius khan, don’t hold back now…
@genius khan,
See what I mean?
Makes me wanna holla.
@genius khan,
Please don’t be @ the E.R. Waiting room you’da done better dialing 911