“hey, what’s keeping ya’ll from putting a ring on it?
—essence magazine relationship editor demetria lucas. lucas, who also blogs at abelleinbrooklyn.com, included this question in her response to a recent nightline segment lamenting (again) the successful but perpetually single black female of the saks fifth serengeti.
its been almost a month since the helena andrews hellstorm made the ninjanets spontaneously combust. in the weeks since, we’ve seen approximately 150,000 different takes on her washington post profile, with responses ranging from empathy and esteem to surprisingly dogmatic disdain and dismissal.
yet, amidst all of that discussion, lucas’s essence piece was the only time i saw someone (other than my mom, who must be contractually obligated to have this discussion with me at least once every three months) address the cheesing elephant sitting on the futon. her question roughly translates as…
“wait a second. yeah, yeah, yeah. we all know that successful black women make worse decisions than gilbert arenas, and that the chances of a high-earning sista in her 30′s finding a spouse are less than the chance that ann coulter’s adams apple isn’t bigger than her balls, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. but…what about the guys? there seems to be quite a few successful but never married black men as well. what’s keeping you all from the alter?”
i initially scoffed at her implication that many (if not most) young and successful black men were staunchly marriage-phobic. but, a close look at the 25 to 40 year old men i personally know showed that while the majority of the white men were either already married with children or recently hitched, the majority of the brothas were single or doing the long-term wifey/concubine bit with no wedding plans in the near future.
i have to admit that this wasn’t the first time i noticed that many “eligible” brothas seemingly held anti-marriage sentiments, and here’s five possible reasons why
1. the career scare
you know, after i saw that the aforementioned “men i personally know” sample was split along racial lines, i went back and re-examined to see if maybe there was a class or social-economic theme overriding the racial one. i mean, if the white guys were in more lucrative professions than the brothas, it makes sense why they’d be more willing and ready to marry.
anyway, while i found that there was no real difference in (assumed) income, i did find a distinct racial difference in the thought patterns of my friends. the white guys were much, much, much more likely to be settled.
if the white guy was a lawyer, the black guy was a lawyer thinking about leaving law to go teach. if the white guy was an english teacher, the black guy was an english teacher with plans to go to dental school. if the white guy was a dentist, the black guy was a dentist who still has the dates of open tryouts for NFL teams circled on his calender.
basically, the white guys had accepted their lots in life. they seemed to be more willing to realize “hey, if i’m lucky, i’ll be working at this same firm for the next 20 years“, and they acted accordingly while the brothas were still trying to “figure things out”.
mind you, i’m not suggesting that the white guys way of thinking is better or even more mature. some of them have resigned themselves to the types of mind-numbing existences that eventually lead to you pulling a kevin spacey in ‘american beauty’. but, this thought process does lend itself to being more ready to get hitched.
with the brothas, even with their decent jobs and nice salaries, the fact that they weren’t settled mentally most likely affected their willingness to settle down and marry, a sentiment that leads us to…
2. the potential upgrade
“wait…if i’m a social worker who’s convinced that i’m going to own a lucrative chain of upscale barbershop/brothels (where you can get a trim and some trim at the same time) in less than five years, why the hell would i commit to someone now when i know that my soon to be banging bank account will increase my options???”
3. no upside
actually, this is a bit misleading. most marriage-phobic men are very aware of the marriage positives. its just that in their minds, the potential bad from the negatives (losing independence. potentially losing income and custody of their children if it ends, etc) vastly outweighs any good from any potential positive.
they’re basically thinking “why do something that might maybe make my life a little better if it also has the potential to make it much, much worse?”
4. the chip
“the chip” refers to the “f*ck any and all institutions” chip sitting on the shoulders of many brothas. this inherent mistrust of the government, the church, the media, the military, and the NBA also extends to the concept of having the government aware of and involved in your home life – their main reason for being anti-marriage
personally i think this is a bit of a bullsh*t conspiracy theorist cop out, but since i’m discussing “reasons” today and not “my feelings about the reasons“, i’m just gonna move on
5. no incentive
while we can endlessly debate about whether men should need an incentive in order to do certain things, you can’t really argue the fact that, generally speaking, we do. like it or not, its in our nature to do what we’re allowed to do and what’s expected of us.
basically, as long as its not socially unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.
6. they’re ahead of the curve
marriage was a necessity in 1892, when life expectancy was 31 and you needed a wife and at least eight kids to help you plow fields and sh*t so you could continue to live your miserable, lice-ridden existence. things have obviously changed for the better since then, and the only thing that separates the successful black male from everyone else is that he’s the first to realize it.
anyway, people of vsb.com, i’m curious. do you agree that successful black men seem to be marriage-phobic? if so, why do you think this is…and is this a bad thing?
also, for the eligible (eligible = employed or at least employable and still in possession of the majority of your teeth) brothas reading this, why haven’t you put a ring on it yet?
—the champ
you hit the nose on the head with the 2 main reasons 1 and 5…the other ones were just filler cause nobody does a top 2 list…LMAO
@shay-d-lady,
thank you shay, for continuing to provide me with the best backhanded compliments ever
I felt the need to repeat my response from Twitter (@hipplotya). This entire post is basically saying that they need to grow the hell up.
That is all.
(Concubine? *dead*)
Okay (PPS) some guys aren’t cut out for marriage…or at least not heterosexual marriage LOL
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
I meant @hipployta and yeah I said it
6. They are gay
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom, thats BS…if anything women need to grow up and realize that they are pawns in a system of degradation and demasculation of the black man…generally, black females are delusional…
@GtuddaC,
welcome and sh*t. and, ummm, you’re not my barber, are you? asking because that sounds exactly like something he’d say.
@GtuddaC,
“…generally, black females are delusional…”
Seriously my dude? I think black women are dealing with reality a little bit more serious than black men are on a daily basis…after all who is running the majority of those single parent homes darling?
In addition gay was an additional option because homosexuality is a reality and a fact to consider. ANNDDD if I said to pull your skirt back down then I’d be emasculating you darling….but I won’t do that *smile*
@GtuddaC,
I vote for the delusional part.
Been married, happily divorced. Not going back.
I’ve learned that when I’m not focused on attending to their wants, but instead on the things that make me happy (I make stuff for other people to sell), I’m far more attractive. Relationships with Black women and White girls tend to discourage those pursuits.
And I know why.
@Ulysses,
My brother…you’re generalizing the entire population of black women as delusional?
I’m not going to ask about the details of your past marriage unless you volunteer them but honestly I would like one of ya’ll to explain your reasoning behind your delusion comment or vote. As I mentioned earlier…black women are dealing with some serious realities that ya’ll are ignorning…possibly because they aren’t within your experience.
@Siobhan, Ps 82.6
Reality is God’s gift to people with no imagination.
If you don’t inspire it, design it or make it, you get what someone else sells or gives you.
I’m not ignoring anyone’s experience, but since we’re on the issue of how a sister’s hair do and an abortion cost about the same amount of money…
… Or rather why people are willing to pay upwards of $35 for a $2.00 t-shirt (price after screen printing)…
…Or rather why people would be willing to spend $250k for a VW Passat with a Bentley sticker on it…
…Is these things impress people that are
not as bright as they are.
For people to believe and instill in their children the belief that the things they purchase, where they matriculated, where they live, what jobs they have, how much they spend (or saved) for their cosmetics makes them better and therefore more attractive to the people they are attracted to becomes a problem that distracts potential mates from beneficial pursuits.
You don’t learn that until your job goes to someone in another country.
But on average, nerds tend to live longer than ballers.
So, we get the lions share of booty when we’re older.
Which makes marriage rather pointless.
@Ulysses,
Okay, so you’re being deliberately obtuse about the reality of black society today. Instead you turn to a soliloquy on materialism that as nothing to do with the poverty and lack of upward movement that a majority of the black population is facing.
See I live in reality…the one were people have children they can’t afford, live in poverty their entire lives, lose children to street violence, are victims of violence themselves, don’t get an education, and pass that on to the next generation.
I choose to live in that reality and try to help though my regular life would NEVER intersect with it.
I actually live in a reality where my next deployment I may not return from. So your generalizations on the delusions of black women, while amusing, are ultimately because you live in a reality where you don’t have to deal with any of those things.
Did you really type hair costs as much as an abortion? The ideal would be abortion prevention via birth control and planned parenthood so that shows the mindset is not where I need it to be anyway. Particularly your notation on “getting the lion’s share of booty when you’re older making marriage pointless.” If it makes you happy darling…have fun.
@Siobhan,
My second deployment in 1984 was to a ‘Smokey Mountain’ (landfill village) in the PI., where the reality of what we choose to do to ourselves was revealed in ways you may not be able to imagine. I went to help dig people out of the mess, after a methane collapsed beneath this heap that hundreds of people were living on. It was made of the things we Americans use and throw away everyday and was generated by American barges filled with things I recognized as being used by everyone I know.
Not obtuse or oblique, but truthful, which goes far beyond the consensus of our reality.
See, success is a perception, that most of us seem to agree is based on a person’s ability to acquire and enjoy material trappings and social status, but has little to do with what brings us joy. All the spiritual, moral, ethical and collective socially beneficial elements a person may possess are generally made tertiary, if not completely thrown out the window.
We’re not talking about survival or even living well here, we’re talking about vanity. A kind of ministry of material possessions, including mates, as a sign that one is blessed by God. Still it has little to do with the intent to know and share a better living with anyone, just self.
Black Women in general (none specifically) and the exceptions are both rare and easy to point out, have given up [our] ability to be of beneficial influence to the generations that follow in exchange for prestigious jobs and cheap overpriced, fleeting, trendy, material things that don’t appreciate in value or add to the quality of our lives. In addition, Many of my poor sisters have been seduced into believing that “The powers that be” have the best plans and intentions for us and our children. And if they follow the plan, they will be able to fix our collective problems, then when they realize they were wrong all the faults point everywhere but inward.
Most heterosexual men, chase after the things that women want, so that they can compete to attract women. Often times losing the joy of their passionate avocations and the desire to experience outside of the scope of the women they are conditioned to find attractive and attainable.
Those Black Men that successfully survive both, the conditioning of the hood and beyond 25 (roughly the nation average life expectancy of a black man) usually find their way back to the things that bring them joys, that don’t require great sacrificial sums of money. Sometimes they learn that what they enjoy, involves the production of things that generate income. Sometimes they learn that women once they’ve attained a level of maturity beyond being “Grown and Sexy” find what these brothers do for pleasure to be things worthy or developing interests in. But more often than not, women of other cultures that share similar interests will be found in greater numbers. Thus causing a dilemma, and that being, cultural obligation.
@Ulysses,
So you’re comparing the abject poverty of another nation to state comparatively we aren’t that bad off? The statements you’re making about materialism are an AMERICAN issue and not limited to one section of our populace…that barge was filled with American garbage correct?
As far as all the rest…you are telling me what black women, as a whole, have done. I, as a black woman, disagree. I think there can be no further discussion honestly as you are set in your opinion and I in mine. Your opinion is just…I would call you a misogynist but I realize your point was intended to be more subtle than that…though your earlier comment on receiving the “lion’s share of the booty” does take away all the depth you are trying to create in your later posts.
@Ulysses,
Oh…and nice drop about your deployment in 1984…I’ll think about it the next time my convoy gets hit with an IED.
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
Somehow a “Gay Deez” comment isn’t a good rebuttal for your comments… Dah well.
if I’d married the strippers I seem to somehow always come into contact with (OUT of the skrip club, mind you), would that have been the wise choice? Cuz I don’t think so, actually.
And it ain’t like I meet these women at houses of ill repute. I meet them everywhere.
One reason I was actually cool with leaving Atlanta.
@Dante_Alexander, no mere mortal can explain Atlanta, it seems….
@Dante_Alexander,
One reason I was actually cool with leaving Atlanta.
I’m on that train too, hopefully.
@AkShone and @Dante_Alexander, I’m currently shopping for my ticket out of Atlanta now – partly for career reasons, but the dating scene definitely plays a factor. But its funny that I always see guys like you all (looking for something of substance ) in cyberspace (on the ninjanets….LMAO!!) but I don’t meet you when I go out. And somehow, you all never meet me and my friends (non-strippers also looking for something of substance). Could it be that we are all just making it more difficult than it needs to be?
@Yonnie3k,
Yes.
@Yonnie3k,
Nah, it’s just on the net you get a more introspective view of one’s thoughts without the interference of one’s physical.
@AkShone, Blackplanet, Myspace, and even everyone’s beloved Facebook killed all that. Now message boards, blogs, and maybe Twitter can reconcile with that notion.
@Dante_Alexander,
Are strippers that deep in Atlanta LOL? Hey, I’m not telling you who to wife…do you…but the content of the post equated to: grow…the…hell…up. *kanyeshrug*
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
Yes. They are.
Cuz I sho in the hell can count on my hands the amount of times I’ve BEEN to a strip club in Atlanta.
But I need mine AND yours to count how many ladies I’ve met and/or been introduced to who, maybe a little later (say, second date or some shit) tell me they “dance” an sheet.
Personally, I’d tell any chick that askes me within minutes or whatever on the first date “What do you DO?” t grow the hell up, which is why I don’t ask. Cuz truthfully, a person is not their job/occupation. I’ll speak on that with them at a later date…
Bad arse stripper chicks just seem to LIKE me.
@Dante_Alexander,
Are there that many strip clubs in ATL? I didn’t realize it was such a lucrative business. I feel for you man. Is it to the point that you expect all these nice looking ladies to be strippers?
LOL…so the strippers like you but you don’t like them? Asking people what they do on a first date seems like basic small talk to me. It’s not who they are but some jobs are lifestyle. I tell people up front because dating someone in the military can be rather difficult at times.
@Dante_Alexander, asking what someone does seems like a perfectly reasonable first date question to me…matter of fact seems to me like not asking that on the first date would be kind of silly….finding out how someone spends at least a third of their waking life isn’t shallow at all IMHO…. what are you supposed to ask on a first date…what are your deepest desires for the future? or should the questions be along the lines of do you like toast?
@klysha
Yes. I ask about toast.
Which is why I end up with hooligans.
They think I mean guns.
@klysha @Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
And for the record, I didn’t say don’t ask on the first date. I said “within minutes”, because that is a teller, personally. That’s not asking about me, that’s asking about my JOB, which may, or may NOT be me. (Mine happens to be, but that’s not the point)…
but again, this is all based on the skewed reality that is Atlanta, so I’m prolly WAY off.
And yes, there ARE that many shake it clubs in The A…
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom, does George Clooney need to grow the hell up?
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
some people would make that argument.
@The Champ, thing is what one eats doesn’t make the next man sh*t. Do you, let that other person do him/her as long as you aren’t at risk for harm.
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
We’re 2520 celebrities into the mix?
Darling…I said the post, which The Champ wrote, equated to black men need to grow the hell up. I don’t know if that’s the case, as I’m not black man and all the ones I know seem cool, but hey that’s what I took out of it *kanyeshrug*
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
This entire post is basically saying that they need to grow the hell up.
not necessarily. although it might seem that they (we) lack maturity, maybe everyone needs to adopt their (our) caution about not rushing into something as serious as marriage
@The Champ,
I am a little confused and maybe I do need to grow up because I don’t understand how a certificate can change the seriousness of a relationship.
This thought has always lingered. I mean, if I am with the same woman for seven years, don’t want to be with anyone else, we have a life together, I feel like that is serious and I don’t need a state of NY to validate how we feel about each other.
Now if you want to throw the protection of assets and insurance coverage etc in the mix then it’s a different story.
Can I just take a woman and call her my wife like in the bible? This isn’t an anti establishment sentiment either. I am really confused.
@xave,
I dont think you’ll get a real answer to this.
@xave, You can definitely do that if you find a woman who is on the same page.
@Yonnie3k,
Yup. The issue arises when the woman feels it DOES make a difference for whatever unspoken reason she may have. It begs the question if there’s truly no difference between modern/legal/wedding marriage and biblical/common law why are so many men resistant to the former?
@Me fail english?, it’s called a wedding costing a billion dollars, her shutting down the sex, losing half of everything you own in a divorce (even if there’s a prenup and even in some cases the stuff before you met her stankin’ a$$), her taking the kids and hiding, and her getting alimony while having a boyfriend she’ll never marry because it cuts that extra check off. These things do happen and are very ugly prospects to a man. Do these thoughts ever occur to women, or do they not since it’s women who benefit from drubbing a man in such a way?
You hit the nail right on the head…I see no benefit to getting married.
@xave,
Can I just take a woman and call her my wife like in the bible?
i was just thinking about this the other day.
in addition to the idea of ppl “marrying themselves”, and not under some clergymen or authorized “official”.
@xave, Because the bible also says that we as christians have to be obedient to the superior authorities(Rom. 13:1)… which means that in order for a wedding to be legal in God’s eyes and in Men’s eyes, then the certificate is needed.
Also notice that when a divorce was recorded in biblical times, the woman was to be given a certificate of divorce. Meaning that it was a legal thing in addition to being a spiritual thing. Look it up.
To be honest(and I’m prepared to be stoned for this comment), if women weren’t letting guys get the goods without marriage, there would be a lot more married women and men in the world today.
Back to trolling for me
@MJ, I wasn’t really being serious about the bible and I don’t read it literally. Just can’t but that’s another conversation.
I highly doubt it’s the “free goods” that is the serves as the roadblock to marriage. I just think that society is evloving and it does not serve the same purpose but with credit markets slowing up maybe the trend will change as people will need to share expenses.
@MJ,
“To be honest(and I’m prepared to be stoned for this comment), if women weren’t letting guys get the goods without marriage, there would be a lot more married women and men in the world today. ”
how would this make things better? woudln’t this lead to mroe marriages for teh wrong reasons? This also makes it seem like marriage is just about the goods.
another thing..what if you are one of those people that isn’t really all that concerned with what the bible says?
@Deviant, you are on a roll. you raised all the right questions. This would further exacerbate the unhappiness and failure of marriages.
@xave,
thanks I try. I dont really expect an answer tho. I’ve asked these questions to people before and never got one. Plus its after 5 EST and I know how that goes.
@MJ, actually, I agree with you on the ‘not giving up the goods’ idea. as a woman myself, I see that we as women are socialized to want to get married and have kids. and the problem with that, i think, is that we are trained to want this so bad that we will settle for whoever says the right things and acts like he gives a sh*t. the emphasis in the black community (from what i’ve seen) is getting a man and not necessarily getting to know yourself.
i’m a 25-year-old, single, college graduate, professional woman and have no problem meeting men. i enjoy my young, single status and am in no rush to settle down. but i also think that, being that i am 25, i still have a lot of growing to do before i can really commit to someone. i’m truly enjoying getting to know me, because once i have me figured out, i’ll have more to bring to the relationship.
what you were saying about just giving it away is accurate. i have friends who are so desperate for any kind of attention that they’ll accept pretty much whatever this guy gives…even if it is a half-a**ed attempt. i think if they valued themselves more and realized that what they have to offer is pretty damn incredible, they would insist on this man treating her in a certain manner. i think men do what they have to do to get what they want, and any decent man will try his hardest to be with a woman who values herself.
@xave,
Okay…in your situation the only reason I’ll throw out there is the same argument I make in support of gay marriage: You’ve been together for a long time something happens and your partner is injured…perhaps on life support. You know their wishes but there isn’t a living will. The family wishes to do otherwise. Also if the family doesn’t like you then you are out of luck as far as getting in that room.
Perhaps an extreme example but if your relationship is solid, and perhaps children are in your future, what’s wrong with the trip to the courthouse?
@ Deviant,
Well I think it would help because there is nothing withheld anymore. There is no benefit to marriage. The goods entails a lot more than just sex. People have developed a promiscuous attitude in the world today and because of that, they have removed the sacredness that the marital arrangement used to hold and the benefits of such.
Instead we are programmed to do whatever we would like, with whomever we would like to do it with. So with the prevailing attitude of the world today in mind, yes it would cause more marriages for the wrong reasons. If there were more incentive to being married, more men and women would look to it for what it was originally instituted to be. Marriage is about self sacrifice, learning and constant growth. It was never something to be entered into then thrown away as soon as issues come up. So if we enter into a marital arrangement with the right attitude about it, we won’t need to worry about bailing out of it, or the effects of such down the line. True, we cannot change or control what our mate is thinking when they go into the arrangement, but we can definitely take the time out to really talk and get to know them before hand.
If you don’t follow the bible’s teachings then that is your personal choice. No one is being forced into a mold. Thats the beauty of our free will.
@xave,
Oh…and the other considerations beyond the medical extreme are the legal ramifications of choosing not marry but still intertwining your finances and having children. From a macro perspective marriages assist in creating a stable platform and the building of communities.
If you disagree I would point out the differences in our communities 50 years ago versus now as far as the nuclear family and what it did for upward mobility is concerned.
@The Champ,
Caution is all well and good…but what I took from the post didn’t indicate caution as a reason for the hesitance. I’m not saying anyone needs to marry, getting married is easy…staying married is hard, but the reasoning is not doing it for me. If you don’t want to be married then don’t but why justifications that are bit suspect…or shallow?
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
Harems are a reasonable method of building communal wealth and preventing STDs.
Seeing that in most predominately AA urban social constructs, the majority of single heterosexual women, share sex partners (‘Cuz ain’t none of you the first woman the brother you’re sexing ever had) And you can out number us 10, 20, 30 to 1 depending on how high your standards are. As a brother ages, our options improve exponentially.
For some reason the knot becomes rather illogical.
Stop me if you think that you’ve heard this one before.
Ulysses: Means Hell raiser
@Ulysses,
A HAREM! You expect a bunch of women NOT indoctrinated into a polyamorous system to be okay with a harem? Even within in that system the man commits bigamy and marries all of them.
Brother if you find that AND without the necessary marriages want to SEE it…and I don’t mean like a pimp because that’s an abusive and unhealthy situation. I mean a healthy communal environment.
I expect loyalty…if I’m in Afghanistan for a year and come back to find you’ve been getting your “stanky leg” on there is going to be a problem…and I’m going to handle it in court. (Is “stanky leg” a euphemism or am I using it wrong?)
Personally I’m not sharing my bank account with anyone that doesn’t have my last name (maiden or otherwise).
As far as the meaning of your name…I’m more inclined to think on Troy, where my sister Queen Penthesilea was killed, and you being lost for 20 years. 20 YEARS! Not to mention macking on a few women WHILE YOU WERE MARRIED *cough*Circe*cough and I don’t think you were Athena’s chosen for nothing….I’m just saying.
@Siobhan,
Seeing that I’m not him…
…and you ain’t her.
But my grandfather’s name his Homer.
The idea of the harem being a closed matriarchal social construct, designed around the benefit of a group of women and their offspring. It might be logical to ponder this concept.
But logic has nothing to do with Black woman, thus justifying my vote for delusional.
Thank you.
HMMM. You raise some good points here Champ. I see you’ve been wearing that thinking cap of yours over the holiday break.
@Liz, PS we do need to work on your clip art skills. Lawd.
@Liz,
clip deez
@The Champ,
that sounds like it would hurt.
Holy crap, you went five-for-five. Why don’t you have your own talk show yet?
@Anechoic, dont encourage him
@Intellectual Hedonist,
encourage deez
who the hell is that a pic of… Omarion’s older and much gayer brother? LOL
@shay-d-lady,
pic? what pic?
@The Champ,
This is what I said earlier…ctfu
@The Champ,
Awww hell naw, there WAS a picture of some random azz dude, with a mishap wanna be fro up there earlier. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!
@V Renee, LOL he know it was a loose a$$ dude up there at first…
@shay_d_lady, LOL. See, this is why I had to take it down, because ya’ll can’t be trusted when posting a pic of real regular people lol. Leave that man alone!
PS I have no idea what pic you are talking about.
do you agree that successful young black men seem to be marriage-phobic?
- Yes.
if so, why do you think this is…..?
“basically, as long as its not unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.”
THAT’S why.
@Spinster, totally agree
@Spinster,
welcome and sh*t
I know I might scare someone with this….but if I was a Black man I would hold out as long as possible, date the entire Crayola multicultural crayon box and then maybe around 40 find a 28-year-old to procreate with by the time she was 30.
The options are limitless…and truth is, they are limitless for sisters as well. Bottomline: The faster we can move forward from the perpetual relationship statistic conversation and just get back having fun and dating, we might….just might actually start putting/wanting rings back on it.
@Kamilah, The options are limitless…and truth is, they are limitless for sisters as well. Bottomline: The faster we can move forward from the perpetual relationship statistic conversation and just get back having fun and dating, we might….just might actually start putting/wanting rings back on it.
I totally agree your age, income and status dont make you undateable..or un weddable..
Hell I know plenty of broke jobless married folks and I also know many successful black people that are married.. to other black people..lol
@shay-d-lady, define “successful”. . .
@shay-d-lady,
The faster we can move forward from the perpetual relationship statistic conversation and just get back having fun and dating, we might….just might actually start putting/wanting rings back on it. .
Completely agree!! I’ve been saying for awhile that I am tired of these relationship talks and the whole woe is me that’s been going on. People need to stop sitting around talking about the lack of this/that/wtf.ever and go back to having fun and dating.
@V Renee,
Word to 2010!
@Kamilah,
“Bottomline: The faster we can move forward from the perpetual relationship statistic conversation and just get back having fun and dating, we might….just might actually start putting/wanting rings back on it.”
Yup, I agree, this actually would make things easier for everyone involved. I try to apply this principle to everything in life. Just let things be. It is what it is and all that jazz.
@Kamilah,
The faster we can move forward from the perpetual relationship statistic conversation and just get back having fun and dating, we might….just might actually start putting/wanting rings back on it.
i want to agree with this, but a part of me is thinking “isn’t ‘we’re having too much free fun’ one of the reasons why cats arent putting rings on it?”
@The Champ, I just think the “free fun” may be happening at the wrong time…our counterparts act a donkey through college and early careerhood….they get it out, we tend to be on the track, focused getting degree after degree following the formula. This is not a mark on education, you already know how imperative that is to growth…but it seems that we enter with a certain heaviness built-in or expectations from “Hello”….I’m just saying that maybe if we relaxed a bit and actually enjoyed the moments we wouldn’t be so afraid of the ring…simply because the ring wouldn’t be driving the relationship, the connection would be.
@Kamilah,
I’m just saying that maybe if we relaxed a bit and actually enjoyed the moments we wouldn’t be so afraid of the ring .
Bingo! This is exactly what I am talking about. People examining each conversation/date/interaction with someone and wondering if they are “The One”. People going to happy hours/lounges/Home Depot or where ever they go, with the sole intention (hope) of running into their
f*ck buddysoul mate….reading the statistics and going bat sh*t crazy because they are scared they are going to be on of the ::insert percentage::. It’s just crazy. How can you enjoy life when you’re so worried about the future that you can’t focus on the present?!?!But then again I’ve always been a go with the flow type of gal. It takes A LOT to get me worked up. And I’m not the type to sit around lamenting about the current dating scene…so it’s weird to me that soooooooo many people are.
@V Renee,
And you know I have to cosign this whole paragraph.
Paranoia is being fed to people and they are eating it up by the spoonful. Let’s all relax. Let’s stop dissecting life and start actually living it.
Everybody should just *whoosah* and get it over with already.
@The Champ,
..precisely. Women are expecting less of men and thusly men are less eager to put a ring on it. if a woman doesn’t make her requirements clear, she will never find a man that even attempts to meet them.
@Jackie,
Word.
@Kamilah,
You got the Motts
I like your thinking
Good list…
I think successful young black men aren’t in a hurry to put a ring on it for the same reasons I’m not in a hurry to accept a ring and I think #1 covers it perfectly. I have a lot of things I want to do in life, and I want to do them by myself. I’m not ready to have to consider anyone else before I make any life altering decision. And I think some young, successful black men feel the same.
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…., completely agree and co sign.. I love my husband and daughter.. but there are a lot of things I would have done differently..not better or worse just different If i weren’t married, Its not something that you take lightly or jump into.. it is a lifetime commitment or it should be!
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…., that’s a good mentality to have. It pains me when people shack up, get knocked up, marry at frickin’ 18 before they’ve really learned about themselves. I don’t see anyone male or female ready to handle the whole weight until at least 25.
@N.I.A. lovesthekids….,
THANK YOU!
Just became I am woman (hear me roar!!) doesn’t mean I am desparately looking to be tied down either. I am aiming towards my securities (stock) broker license, being a principal owner of real estate firm with a partner and getting my body into tip top “she’s bad” status. So the woman I am today will be far from the woman I am in the next 6 months, even. With all those plans, I just keep a good friend around who understands my needs and knows how to satiate my desires.
@Jackie,
I’m SO glad somebody said this…
I’ve been “ring swatting” the SO for three GOOD years and I continue to do so.
Yessssssssss, I love him and all that rigamarole. Great dude and whatnot…but please deliver me from one more side eye from friends and family who think enjoying his company means tying myself down with him in front of Uncle Sam’s retarded cousin, Jim Crow…
Okay one last comment…what’s the rush to be married? I have been married…and sure it wasn’t a traditional marriage (weren’t in love and were best friends) but the hard part isn’t getting married…it’s STAYING married. Just relax and enjoy being single and dating and let life (and marriage) happen…and if for whatever reason that successful brotha doesn’t want to marry let him do whatever and keep your dating options open. I’m an equal opportunity dater myself LOL.
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom, I agree about the STAYING married part. That’s why even tho I am a lonely, heartless, successful Black woman, at my age I got plenty years left to get hitched. You can’t get divorced if you’re not even married yet!
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom, Realistically, my rush to get married (well, within the next 5 years, hopefully) is that I’d like to have children one day and hopefully not after paying a doctor tens of thousands of dollars to help me produce one.
Also, I think being African provides me with a more traditional sensibility about marriage. While I would be hesitant to rush into anything because I do agree that staying married is the hardest part, most of the family members in my parents generation had arranged marriages (my parents only exchanged pictures and 2 letters before they got hitched) so I tend to err on the side of blind leaps of faith.
@a.e.,
I feel you on that. Being African myself, it’s practically tradition to think about and actively pursue marriage. To do otherwise invites gossip and ridicule in some family circles.
But with the way my mom has been hinting about the “phonecalls” she’s been getting about my sister and I, me thinks I can do my own thing and still get married when I feel like it. Apparently there’s a line going out the door. Such are the perks of being Nigerian. :/
@lulu, O yea…the suitors that consult your Mother, Uncles, distant relatives and tailor (lol) for your hand in marriage. Thing is that system has worked for some people I know but I’ll pass.
@anonymous deux,
im trying to pass myself
@a.e.,
Avoiding paying the doctor money is good reason but beyond that…I’ll leave the matchmaking to ya’ll.
My Parents are on year 29 but are cool with me doing me so I’ll just flounder around until I meet someone I’m interested in or adopt some children LOL
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
why did you get married if you were just good friends?
@The Champ, to stay in the country?
@Stuff Ghetto People Like, LOL!! but for real, is that any less of a reason than health insurance, money, expiring clock, kids, who wants to be a millionaire,
being in love, publicity, etc?@The Champ,
Well darling…we were stationed in England (a military marriage…a hot mess) and didn’t want to get split up. Neither one of us ever planned to marry so the 5 years we planned to be married didn’t seem like it would affect anything.
Aside from that joint spouse military get assignment preferences that single people don’t. I wanted to get to a base near a good school. Hence we ended up in NJ and I got my degree from Rutgers.
However we got deployed at opposite times so much that after the first year we were basically roommates high-fiving in the airport LOL. Such is military life. I love the new wife though and I have a lovely god son.
IM BACK!!!! hold the applause. Happy (all the holiday’s and birthday’s I missed while I was gone for 4 months) New Year to my VSB family!!!!
ok now that is out the way.
um yeah, having just come of a circumnavigation of the globe that I would not have been able to do had I gotten married 18 years ago like I had hoped and prolly pushed out a couple of big headed kids, I have to agree. I think in general men my age and women my age are in no rush because we are doing our thing enjoying life and living it up. I will be 39 this year, and can honestly say I am so glad the direction my life is going, though it would be great to share with someone (at times), I am enjoying it all the same on my own.
However one item that you missed is something I have come accross with some of the men my age that are still single. They seem not to be in a rush to commit in part because they were made bitter by their baby mama, or a past relationship. NOT ALL, just some.
@Intellectual Hedonist,
They seem not to be in a rush to commit in part because they were made bitter by their baby mama, or a past relationship. NOT ALL, just some.
i was going to include this somewhere in the entry, but couldn’t find where to fit it. basically, despite whats commonly thought, men actually take relationships/marriages ending worse than women do. while women may generally be more emotive, guys might not emotive, but might take years, decades even, to get over it.
@Intellectual Hedonist, We missed you Soror!
I also know a lot of people are going to hate on the #1 statement..but the truth is a lot of these “successful women” pursued their dreams and careers until they were settled and now that they are ready they want someone to jump in and marry them like NOW…it doesn’t happen that way.
now dont get me wrong.. i am contemplating a career change and my husbands in put is crucial
but if I didnt have a husband and child I would have said F!ck it and walked off years ago….LOL
@shay-d-lady, “a lot of these “successful women” pursued their dreams and careers until they were settled and now that they are ready they want someone to jump in and marry them like NOW…it doesn’t happen that way.”
Men do this too. I was with men who were 35+ tonight talking about how they can’t find women. Digging deeper, it came to light that they had played around in their 20′s and early 30′s. They thought the wealth of marriage worhthy (their words), women would be around. Digging deeper, right now they claim to want to marry the woman who look like Beyonce, speak like Michell Obama, and screw like ‘insert pole chick here’. Frankly those chicks were a dime a dozen when the men were running through them. Now, most of those chicks are fat and bitter with a kid or six. And then those men are sitting us almost disappointed when they found out how old we were. Pish-posh!
@Ms. Smart, I understand that men do this too.. I wasnt implying that people in general didnt, I believe that was exactly Champs point is that men do that. LOL
I was just saying its funny that a lot of “successful women” seem to forget that they did the same thing before they were ready to settle.
@Ms. Smart, we don’t all spend our days before 35 strictly just wanting to f*ck (we like to f*ck, but that’s beside the point). Even at those younger ages when women without child and baggage were more plentiful, philosophies are often incompatible. When a man sees a partner in crime, one he feels at home with, he’s off the market, guaranteed.
Some of these ideas in this world, I can see what makes people scared to get old.
@shay-d-lady,
EXACTLY. A lot of seem to have an “entitlement” mentality when it comes to finding a mate to marry. It’s like they’ve checked off items one-through-whatever on some imaginary checklist, and seem to feel because they have been succesful in other endeavors that they somehow “deserve” someone who is immediately ready, willing, and able to make them complete. Ladies, let go of the scavenger hunt, and you might be surprised what you find…
Reason’s why successful black men won’t put a ring on it?
Shaq
Michael Jordan
Tiger
Nas
or they are afraid they’ll turn into Doug Christie.
@Nola Darling,
Yea Doug Christie = FAIL!!!
@aceklub, Doug Christie = FAIL!!!
Co-sign!
@aceklub, LOL
Agree!
@aceklub, EPIC goddamn fail!! No man wants to be him. He’s that whipped dude a lot of stand-up comics profess to be in their sets.
Ladies, face it, that’s another one for the list, no man worth his salt wants a woman to be the boss of him.
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Let me add, what woman in their right mind would need to follow their man around 24/7? Seriously? I’m thinking of better isht to do with my time.
I’m gonna say epic fail on both parts.
@miss t-lee, I don’t disagree and sh*t. My woman should have a life too.
@Nola Darling, Those men are the exception to the rule. We can’t base how our whole community views legally binding commitment on a few exceptions who, let’s face it, probably entered into those unions wet behind the years.
@Ms. Smart,
It was a joke.
@Nola Darling, OK. You saw what time I was commenting? Insomnia (and drinks) makes me take things very seriously. LOL My bad.
@Ms. Smart,
you were drinking at 3 in the morn on a sunday night? i’m officially scared of you now.
@The Champ I was coming in from earlier partying.
@Nola Darling,
Aint nothin’ wrong wit some Doug
@Nola Darling,
LOL!!! The truest words EVER written!!
I am not sure men are the problem. Don’t get me wrong, I think these reasons are probably true. But I really and honestly believe there are so many single black women because we don’t want to get married.
Most of the single black women I know, particularly the ‘successful’ ones, are either really ambivalent about marriage or openly hostile to it. Shoot, I only changed my mind like last year when circumstances suggested it wouldn’t end in a flaming mess.
So half a cosign on this post. These are reasons black men don’t marry, but that isn’t the only reason black women are single.
@tiffany, You and I hang around in very different circles. Or, rather, I think a lot of the women you speak to create these walls of ambivalence that hide their inner desire to pair off. Kind of like the uglier chicks in college who are all about their studies and don’t like to party…
@a.e., “I think a lot of the women you speak to create these walls of ambivalence that hide their inner desire to pair off. Kind of like the uglier chicks in college who are all about their studies and don’t like to party…”
WORD UP! Defense mechanism. It’s like the chick who has been planning her wedding since she was 13. She gets with a guy. She’s with him for a decade, most of which she’s begging for marriage. Then, all of a sudden, she doesn’t believe marriage is necessary. What’s really happening is that she has decided to give up on what she wants and take what she can get. She can get babies and companionship from this dude. SHE SETTLES. He, on the other hand, is getting everything he wants without having to be legally bound to her.
@a.e.,
lol. And the “Keepin it WAY Funky” award goes to…
@a.e.,
So then, if you KNOW that there is a wall that is false, yet keep it up in the face of a dude that might, in fact, be genuine… What’s that mean?
I for one find it very hard to give a sheet about somebody who OPENLY talks about things in a negative light, which it seems so many lady-folk do when speaking about the guys.
I apologize on behalf of my gender, but I ain’t do the sheet. Calm thyself and recognize I actually AM a nice dude.
Habitual sexual harassment aside.
@a.e.,
Or, rather, I think a lot of the women you speak to create these walls of ambivalence that hide their inner desire to pair off. Kind of like the uglier chicks in college who are all about their studies and don’t like to party…
i think the term “learned helplessness” basically describes this way of thinking. its used in academic circles to describe kids who pretend not to care about school because they’re struggling with it. its a bit of a defense mechanism.
welcome and sh*t, btw
@The Champ, Thanks! I’ve been lurking for awhile, last night’s insomnia led me to finally commenting
@a.e. yes, we probably do hang out in very different circles.
example: while my friend was working on her M.B.A. at 24, she said to me “i don’t know if i will ever find a man who is on my level. and you know what? i’d rather be by myself if i can’t have what i want. i can do bad by myself.” that sounds like ambivalence to me.
i have two other friends in their mid-30s with graduate degrees. they both live versions of the S&TC life to varying degrees. one says emphatically, “i don’t want to get married or have kids.” the other says “well, i’m not entirely sure i want to give up my freedom.”
do they want long-term companionship? yes. do they want husbands? no.
in my own case, i always imagined i’d have multiple long-term, unmarried relationships and long periods of being single. that’s exactly how my life has turned out thus far. i will (probably) say ‘yes,’ when my man asks (as he said he will). but he is my partner and companion regardless of marital status.
@tiffany, Well you know what they say about birds of a feather…
And to be direct, its not as if my friends are not well-educated and don’t have great careers, maybe just more family oriented than you and your set. I am a yoga instructor and part of the practice is setting an intention in the beginning of your practice. If your intention is to just have a series of long-term relationships, I fully respect that, but I definitely think you are in the minority. I personally am tired of women who are too afraid to express their intention for wanting a stable and happy marriage so they settle for what they can get and act as if that was always their dream.
@tiffany,
right, black women have a lot of apprehension about marriage because it may be to the detriment of their careers, or their bodies, or their ability to just do as they please.
….I would agree with this philosophy.
But when my partner in crime comes along I am ready to stand BESIDE him and rule the world!
Ambivalence…that’s my one word take on it. Just unsure in general. Your summation of the settled-ness – (c) me, too damn early in the morning to search for words that actually exist – explains it perfectly.
It’s sad that there is such a lack of confidence/decisiveness. I understand the societal woes that have brought us to this point, doesn’t make it any less frustrating.
Disclaimer: I’m married to a Black man under 40 (imagine!) Of course I have visited a divorce attorney but that is neither here nor there (I didn’t file, we’re working on it, blah blah blah too much sharing)
@EbonyI,
well, thanks for (almost) sharing and sh*t
Yea, as a eligible brother with my teeth, I would have to agree with point #1. While you can never predict your future and know that as you accomplish one thing, another issue surfaces, I know that I have certain goals that I want to accomplish that are higher on the list than getting marriage. Also, I do feel that even though most folks operate in a two-person income structure, most guys, like I, feel that we have to make sure we are able to provide successfully provide for your family and that affect guys mentally if they are not in position to do so.
@aceklub, “I feel that we have to make sure we are able to provide successfully provide for your family and that affect guys mentally if they are not in position to do so”
Good point! This is a big issue for a lot of the guys that I know.
@aceklub, “we have to make sure we are able to provide successfully provide for your family and that affect guys mentally if they are not in position to do so.”
WORD UP!!! <—I'm bringing it back!
@Ms. Smart, “word up” never left my vocab. I just use it differently.
@aceklub,
LMAO @ as an eligible brother with my teeth
@aceklub,
EBwT (Eligible Brothers w/ Teeth) of the World Unite….lol
Co-sign on the ability to provide for family financially….that traditional societal role of primary breadwinner still affects us even today…
@DG,
EBwT (Eligible Brothers w/ Teeth)
as the resident vsb acronym guru, i officially give ebwt my stamp of approval
@The Champ,
Thanks and sh#!…
@aceklub,
most guys, like I, feel that we have to make sure we are able to provide successfully provide for your family and that affect guys mentally if they are not in position to do so.
yeah, this ties in with number one. basically, even if a successful dude is marriage-minded, he’s probably not going to want to make that step until he’s sure that he can provide for a family by himself. that “grow together” stuff probably isn’t going to fly with him.
you know, you can actually make the argument that not getting married is a chivalrous act
basically, the white guys had accepted their lots in life. they seemed to be more willing to realize “hey, if i’m lucky, i’ll be working at this same firm for the next 20 years“, and they acted accordingly while the brothas were still trying to “figure things out”. even with their decent jobs and nice salaries, the fact that they weren’t settled mentally most likely affected their willingness to settle down and marry,
Complacency is the evil of all men. My nagging dissatisfaction is what drove me to go back to school and get my PhD. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
@Shay, Black men are looking for perfect whereas white men are cool with good enough–for right now. Trust, when the current model gets old, they are quick to upgrade under the guise of ___________<—anything.
NOT DIRECTED TO YOU PER SE: I wonder how many people commenting on the subject have true, long-term white male and female friends. I'm talking about people you choose to spend time with OUTSIDE of work. And if you do, do you also have REAL Black friends to compare with. I wonder.
@Ms. Smart,
I suppose I’m an idealist. Complacency is stifling to me, but that also didn’t stop me from considering marriage at one point. We were in it together, however, I was going to get my PhD in Psychology, and she was going to pursue a Masters in Healthcare Administration, but we were going to do it together.
Although not directed at me per se: I do. My best friend of 10? 11 years is black. I am blessed with different confidants of varying races.
@Ms. Smart, “I wonder how many people commenting on the subject have true, long-term white male and female friends. I’m talking about people you choose to spend time with OUTSIDE of work. And if you do, do you also have REAL Black friends to compare with. I wonder.”
Wow . . .talk about an eye opener . . . I don’t really have any white GOOD friends . . .
@Ms. Smart, “I wonder how many people commenting on the subject have true, long-term white male and female friends. I’m talking about people you choose to spend time with OUTSIDE of work. And if you do, do you also have REAL Black friends to compare with. I wonder.”
You mean hang out with 2520s like when we all go and chip in to Amber or Jaguar’s college fund? Or to discuss work over some beverages at a favorite spot sure? The occasional ski/sky dive trip? Watching the game at the boss’s crib? Then sure.
But if you’re talking about hanging out with them…discussing fam and shit, and not just enough to achieve a political work advantage, but because they my ace boon and shit…then I’d have to go with no. That actually sounds kinda WACK!!
@HabitualLineCrossa, you know wut? I’ve decided to try and be nicer this year. Let me expound a little bit on this statement.
I find in my various circles from college to various industries since then that I can generalize and say most 2520s just make me mad with the things that come outta their mouths. with how they treat their elders (disrespectful), kids (coddle, overly medicate, and not putting a foot up their behinds when necessary), and life in general (everything is too much for them to handle, or they are just boring to me). I’m sure I have a kindred spirit out there that happens to be 2520, but until that day, my free time is time for me to unwind (or work), not to have to think about choking somebody any more than I normally do.
@HabitualLineCrossa, “But if you’re talking about hanging out with them…discussing fam and shit, and not just enough to achieve a political work advantage, but because they my ace boon and shit…then I’d have to go with no. That actually sounds kinda WACK!!”
It’s no wacker than hanging out with Black folks you determine you don’t like. But it’s very possible to meet white and other races who you DO enjoy hanging with on a sincere level. I think a lot of perspectives are developed based on what we perceive from the outside looking in. I have learned sooooo much from my white friends and I know they’ve learned a lot from me. We willingly talk about everything. And a lot of what the media would have us believe about how they are just isn’t true and/or skewed in a way that makes them seem SUPER different from us.
@Ms. Smart, I agree with what you are saying. My only statement is, while I believe I can make fun regardless of the circle i’m thrown into, sometimes, i’d rather just sit back and have fun than make fun. I’m one of those unfortunate souls that hear life stories from people that don’t know me. and most of my experiences, given enough time, i find even the most liberal of 2520s, make me want to choke them.
you work long hours in firms where you are the only Black man, you spend a substantial amount of time with other races. there are a gang of folks I hang with, and i’m cool with, but only a handful I actually wanna be around when i’m not working…it just so happens that none of them are 2520s. Just my experience.
@Ms. Smart,
as far as actual white friends, i don’t have many. the sample i used was actually either guys i work or went to school with, or the white guys i play ball with saturday mornings.
@Ms. Smart, All my close friends from my hometown are 2520, all my close friends from college are black or some other type of minority and I would say that for the females, the differences with regards to attitudes towards marriage/dating are about the same. The difference is with the men.
What I’ve observed is that around 26 or 27, my white male friends started to really slow down with going out, drinking to excess, one night stands, etc. and started to look for a girl to settle down with (at times, almost to an extreme extent, IMHO) and many of them have since married. I don’t know a single black man under the age of 33 who is married and many of my black male friends from college are right there along with the recent grads at bars/clubs/lounges buying bottles, acting a fool, and acting as if they are allergic to commitment.
Last year I decided I wanted to get married sometime sooner than later and since then I have realized that the likelihood of the groom-to-be being a black man is very slim for many of the reasons you mentioned. Also, almost every 2520 I have dated is rather comfortable talking about their desire to settle down and have kids, even if their time line is a few years out, whereas a black man I wasted three years of my life with acted as if the idea of having children was so taboo that it could never be discussed. Like Siobhan said up top, black men just need to grow the hell up. In the meantime, I don’t intend to be sitting around waiting.
Also, why do all the articles act as if it is impossible for black women to date outside their race? Yeah, yeah, yeah black women are less likely to date outside of their race and self-report a greater desire to marry within their race, but perhaps speaking/reporting about it as if its an impossibility reinforces some of the mental barriers that black women have when it comes to interracial dating/marriage.
@a.e., I think more of us are willing that non-Black men than reported. The problem, IMO is that the statistics assume every non-Black man is willing to date, marry and staff up the homestead with a Black women. I see it as no different that the Black men who have admitted they’ve screwed many non-Black and checkother women but would NEVER bring them home to their mothers. It’s all good and dandy to test drive but when it comes down to buying, they want a car built in their homeland. And Black women…not so much homeland material in the minds of a lot of non-Black men.
@Ms. Smart,
It’s all good and dandy to test drive but when it comes down to buying, they want a car built in their homeland.
good analogy and sh*t
Everyone should do what’s right for them and after getting hit on by two married men this weekend, I respect men who don’t rush to get married. Marriage is a long-term commitment and it’s scary. I can see why men hesitate. I think the reason white men settle down more is because they’re wilder at a younger age, so by the time they hit their mid-20s+, they’re more willing to settle down.
@Leila,
I think the reason white men settle down more is because they’re wilder at a younger age, so by the time they hit their mid-20s+, they’re more willing to settle down.
i think this applies more to white women than white men actually. white women (seem to) get all of their girlsgonewildness out of their systems during their first couple years at college
@The Champ, I’ll agree about the white women, but white men are wild too. The white men that I went to school with were much wilder than the black men. They also got to travel a lot and partied hard where the black men were a lot more focused on studies and didn’t have the money to do what they want. I can see why black men want to take some time to enjoy life after getting a successful career before settling down.
I’m still trying to make the race connection. Why were the successful white guys more “willing”? What in the black experience makes them have these views and white men not?
@Mdnytnt, Paranoia. That’s my guess. Black people have a level of paranoia in them that they’re thisclose to losing their job, or maybe they aren’t made in the shade as much as white people might feel on the same level of the game of life (hence champ’s examples). Paranoia might be too strong of a word, but definitely along the lines of “security.” It should be obvious why black people may feel this way over white people.
@Liz, Good point Liz! I think an exception might be African men raised in the US or abroad, where marriage is very common.
@Leila,
Yah, taking it way deeper than maybe this was supposed to go, the race connection is something I’ve been trying to figure out myself. Could it be that the seemingly inherent distaste for marriage goes all the way back to the advent of the African slave in the Americas? After all, there were documents that instructed white slave owners on how to create a slave both mentally and physically. Most of the time, that included separation of families, forced marriages for procreation, pitting slave against slave, etc the list goes on. Somewhere along the way, did that create ‘abnormal’ dating, courtship and marriage rituals among AA because stability wasn’t an option? If so, how does that explain all the marriages that were sustained precisely because little else was in their control?
I know it’s much to early for deep thoughts but I’m just wondering….
@lulu
Ah, the slavery cop out.
@lulu, good point but I have to also say it might be the slavery cop out…yet again.
@lulu,
*shrugs*
not making any excuses for anyone.
@Mdnytnt,
i see a few of the comments below cited paranoia and slavery in their answers to your questions, but i dont think its that deep. ms. smart actually mentioned this somewhere, but its a difference in priorities.
generally speaking, white men don’t consider themselves truly successful until they have a family and home of their own. on the flipside (generally speaking) black men don’t want to have a family and home of their own until they are successful. basically, they see the family as a means to an end, while we see it as the end in itself. this thought process is mainly due to the fact that many of us weren’t brought up in situations where the importance of two person/parents families were stressed
@The Champ, yep
I noticed the same thing about my white counterparts. The thing is, the white men I know seem to have been socialized to believe GROWN MAN=SOMEONE WITH A FAMILY WHO SUPPORTS SAID FAMILY. Black men, on the other hand, were socialized that grown=getting things. Women are just seen as things. The more a man gets, the more grown he is. In the Black community, a lot of men don’t believe their pride is tied to having a family. But for white men, they puff their chest out a bit more when they can say they have a wife (even if they hate her guts), a fine house, and their kids are in private school with 3K worth of dental work–each. Sadly, I blame the generation before us. And since women are usually the ones in charge of socializing the children (or left as single parents), 50.6% of the blame is on their shoulders while the other 49.4% is on the father’s shoulders. But I believe in two generations (thanks to the economic downturn) marriage will be all the rage again.
Having said all that, if I were Black men, I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on the Teeth Harvey bandwagon and accept that Black women should date older, out of the Black race, or lower their standards. If Black women do that, it means they have accepted that Black men their age are unwilling and incapable of rising to the occasion. Non-Black society seems to already have embraced this. Black women were the last cheering section Black men had. That’s not a slight to Black women but a bigger slight to the capabilities of Black men to perform, excel, and ‘catch up’ (CreoleInDC, 2010–last night). But what do I know? I’m not a Black man.
@Ms. Smart,
lol, you said a mouthfull.
@Ms. Smart,
” Teeth Harvey ”
I’m going to have to call him that early and often. *snickering*
This kneegro writes a book and all of a sudden we’re supposed to hang on every word and follow it. Ladies, please don’t believe the hype. Ugh…
@Ms. Smart, “Black women were the last cheering section Black men had”…this is untrue. Black women are intertwined with the degregation of black men…
@GtuddaC, Do tell. Please provide broad, commonly occurring examples of this. I don’t say that trying to be a smart ass.
I think a more accurate statement would be that we both have been guilty of degradation. I said Black women were the last cheering section because we’re the last ones holding out to marry y’all.
@Ms. Smart,
Black women were the last cheering section Black men had.
the last? we had other cheering sections? when did this happen?
@The Champ,
lol. I was thinking that too.
@Ms. Smart, you have said a lot and I wish it were that simple. In actuality the two generations preceding ours had a higher rate of marriage (among African Americans) and the generation directly before us had a higher rate of education among (African American) males. The problem is more structure than it is a cultural phenomenon. Champ’s post highlights many of the cultural and structural reasons why black men won’t get married nicely. I am a suffering from fatigue of this “Black Men Won’t Rise to the Occasion” in social discourse because it is absolute foolishness and lends to one of the cultural explanations why black men will not get married to black women. They don’t feel like they are good enough. Time and time again I have to here this black men aren’t carrying their weight BS when they are like people getting polled about the healthcare debate by FOX News (No one has ever seen them). I am surrounded by black men everyday that are ready, willing and able to get married but like Champ said, “Where is the incentive?” Please I would really like to hear 5 legitimate benefits of marriage besides the tax breaks.
Keep in mind that Champ acknowledges that his comparison of white males and black males are axiomatic and not empirical facts. But maybe white men share something with the Helena Andrews of the world; they see marriage as another thing to do.
Can I get some stats on the breakdown of the unmarried “successful” black women? I know the report says 70% of us are lonely, but what percentage of this group accounts for the 42% of black females who never marry? 10%? 80%? 3%? How would we feel if 90% of the unmarried 42% of black females were the welfare queens of the world? Would anybody even care like they seem to now?
Not to mention what defines “successful”? I need some income brackets or education levels defined, or something. A few of the chicks in the ABC report seem to be fairly different from the success that was defined in the helena andrews WaPo piece….but they all have the same sad ending. Not knocking anybody, but I am more concerned with the media continuing to bring us down with the statistical okey doke of these stories, gettin us all riled up, hating on each other….keeping us further from unity.
UPDATED TO ADD:
I did some research online and as I suggested, there are two lines of thinking on these “stats” we always hear about:
1) black women in general (irregardless of education) are twice as likely to never marry than white women. This was data drawn from the last US Census. The numbers on this report show nothing about education or income level. (Also note: a) these numbers mention NOTHING about the shiftlessness of black men and b) there is a higher percentage of unmarried black men in this world, but their gap is smaller when compared to white men).
2) Some Yale professors released some research this year finding that highly educated black women are less likely to be living with a spouse than highly-educated white women today than they did in the 70s (i.e. the gap is bigger these days). Now, here is where we get all confused about “the successful black woman:” this study was only done on POSTGRADUATE BLACK WOMEN. That means if you are Black, female, and ONLY have a bachelor’s degree, this study is NOT taking about YOU. So saddown. Hahaha. JK. Also, the study says black women (not just highly educated ones?) are least likely to marry dudes who finished college (note: there’s no racial breakdown of these noneducated men).
I think its interesting to note that given these data sets….this whole story has somehow morfed into how trifling, shiftless, and useless Black men (as a whole!) are for their mates (as a whole! not just the postgrad-degreed ones the study was done on). Not to mention, I see a lot of non post-grad-degreed Black women taking this as truth (or refuting this) for their future…when one of these studies has nothing to do with them. In addition, i think it’s interesting we assume the “successful black woman” portrayed in this situation SHOULD be dating the janitor or her driver (a la Daddy’s Little Girls), when the stats already say black women are least likely to be married to a man with a college degree.
I think i would prefer to see data on marriage rates across socioeconomic status and race. I would also like to see more info on who these highly educated black women are marrying (Fuzzy Cornrows dude, or the BS in MechE guy from MIT). I would also like to see some marriage data on Black women who only have bachelor’s degrees. Because from where I sit, all the numbers above taken together could mean something else entirely: having a post-grad degree as a black woman in this world doesn’t mean sh*t for your overall relationship happiness, or the poorer you are, the less likely you are to marry (and who is most likely to be poor in this country?). Just saying there could be all kinds of reasons to explain this besides all black men suck.
sorry to be so long-winded!
ONE LAST THING: beyond my issue with Black men being the phantom fall guy for black women’s marrying problems, I find it EXTREMELY IRONIC that the study I listed above (#2) SCIENTIFICALLY PROVES (ok, notes) that Black women are least likely to marry men with a college education (or better)….yet WE get labeled as the PICKY BITCHES and GOLD DIGGERS. WTF? We can’t be that picky or digging for much gold if you didn’t even finish college. Geez.
Ya’ll all need to get your minds right lol. The media have it all twisted and we just feed it with self hate.
@Liz,
AMEN!
@Liz, but yall are the gold diggers and picky bitches…generally speaking of course
@Liz, I just wrote about this. I always thought the problem was more women with advanced degrees than women with BS, BA, or Associate degrees. At least among people I know, people with just college degrees are doing just fine relationship wise. Most I know got married within two years of graduating from college.
Still though, jail, sports, and all that aside, the fact still remains that Black women are slaying Black men when it comes to going to college. Women across the board (black, white, whatever) are obtaining the majority of the degrees, but the disparity among African Americans is higher.
@Liz,
Fuzzy Cornrows dude .
Apparently the IT department aka “the man”, allowed me access to the site today. They much have realized how amusing I found the above. ROTFLMAO
@Liz, but isnt it possible that most women are less likely to marry a college grad simply because the rate of matriculation is lower than women?
as you point out there has not been a poll that takes all (education, income and marital status) into consideration so I dont believe any real conclusion can be drawn about that at all.
for example every black principal i l know is married to a black woman. I dont even think you can be single and a principal! LOL Dont you have to have an advanced degree to be a principal?
Im just saying that there are successful post graduate married men.
Also if you are discussing success “post graduate” degrees doesnt necessarily equal success I think that term needs to be better defined before we can even discuss it further. But I totally agree with your overall point which is..
Lets not make black men the enemy and dont let the media and these skewed a.ss numbers tell you that just because you happen to be a black woman you cant or wont be successful in a relationship/marriage….
@Liz,
Great points Liz!
I am tired of the tragic “successful black woman” story! This HYPE and propaganda to further divide black ppl can really mess with a sistas psyche!
@Liz, What you just did right here was great. You took the emotion out and went and found the numbers and the details about the studies. Thanks! And how many of us do have advanced degrees? I mean really. I’m not working now. Maybe I’ll get the gubment to give me some money to do a study that cross examines socioeconomic factors, education, AND up-bring.
*doing the math in my head* Wait! All of my married girlfriends have advanced degrees.
@Liz,
someone took their smart pills this morning
or, at least, stopped drinking
@Liz: agreed. the vast majority of that 42% are lower-middle or working class. < 20% of black folks have a bachelor's degree. the number of black post-grad degree holders is even smaller. worrying about bourgie broads reflects mainstream media's class bias. marriage itself is pretty much a middle-to-upper middle class institution. this hand-wringing about why black middle class women aren't married (and aren't having children*) is classist navel gazing, not reflective of the real issue.
the real issue: black PEOPLE aren't getting married in the same numbers as we used to. whether that's good or bad depends on what you think about marriage and traditional family.
from what i have seen, read, and heard, black folks are kind of "meh" about the whole thing. and black women, in particular, don't seem to express the same gung-ho desire for marriage that their our white counterparts do.
since i'm in a guessing mood, i think black women are ambivalent because marriage doesn't offer enough benefits (in terms of mental and financial well-being) and offers a glaring negative (poorer health). that nugget comes from the center for marriage and families, a pro-marriage research group. that same study showed marriage for black men is an overwhelming positive.
Two of the biggest reasons that slow down my urgency to consider marrying a black chick, though eventually I will are; 1) Too much faith in religion or the unwillingness to question religious institution and 2) doesn’t believe black people are owed anything and thinks no matter what “that we(black n white) are actually equal.”
I have a problem putting much faith or love into a woman that can’t question society, but can find plenty of time to question my motives when I have never lied or been contradictive. I want a woman that doesn’t take anything for face value, that’s on my team. Many times it feels like I’m a lonely black man, because the women just dont relate. Yes true there are some ride or die sistas/black women that want an ebony God dipped in onyx, but then there’s the women that don’t see my everday struggle, that dont understand that many black men are dying in America just from the stress of being a black men. I understand it’s difficult being a woman, but its hard to make these ends meet and compromise.
One more reason are the chicks that want to be your mother or that are too manly. The socioeconomic system we have has truly blown the roles of black man and woman to smithereens, and everyone seems to be searching for that balance.
Lastly, I have nothing else to say none other than I will marry a black woman and most likely have four or more kids, but times have made dating very perplex and awkward mainly because it is a true transitioning period in America. Tradition has become deceased and no one is really satisfied with what used to be and we want anew. Everyone wants freedom with no sacrifice.
@The Hallway, “2) doesn’t believe black people are owed anything and thinks no matter what “that we(black n white) are actually equal.””
I was watching this movie Thirteen Days about the cuban missle crisis and about how the Kennedy’s stepped it up . . . caught myself getting patriotic . . . then realized I probably wouldn’t have even have been allowed to vote then. I don’t think I’m owed anything (especially since my ancestral slavery experience was south of the border and my inability to be broke again does not allow for worrying about anything being owed) but I tend to check folks that say we are all on equal footing now.
@The Hallway,
I have the same problem too. I’ve experience this with the professional and working class chics. If you want to have an intellectual conversation it is an intellectual conversation about church. And the disbelief in black people being owed anything and are equal is another issue. It amazes me how some women are totally disconnected from their environment. Not to say their aren’t men out here like this too.
@Humble_One, thats oxymornic, “intellectual conversation about church”
@The Hallway, nice to know I’m not the only free thinker (meaning not a theist) here.
@The Hallway,
this entire comment thread sounds like the footnotes version of number 4 on the list
@The Champ, with all due respect, that would be a little dismissive. It’s not just simple distrust of western institutions so much as some guys subscribe to alternative philosophies.
What a way to start off the New Year! Great post Champ! I’ve been curious about this topic for awhile as I know several “successful” (imo) black men 30+ who dont seem to want/have the desire to settle down though they are surrounded by equally or more successful black women.
@RedPlum,
thanks and sh*t, red plum
so…why are we waiting on black men again?
@tiana, conditioning.
@Miss Smith,
who conditioned you?
@dave, church, mama and grandma, their little friends maybe?
progressive black men have choices today that they are willing to explore. did women not fight for the right to have this level of choice? if so, who says that a black man with no children, a degree, ambition, dreams (that do not involve a woman) in his 30s or otherwise has to be married to be mature or to be a man? Marriage is not make maturity.
This is easier than we make it and I think that is what scares folks who feel Black relationships need to be saved.
1) Many black men come from broken homes where not see a successful relationship between black folks that were young/middle-aged. Many of us have friends who are married, love their wives and kids, but will tell you in a heart-beat, “don’t do it.”
2) There is a hidden/ unspoken little secrete in our neighborhoods. Our black mothers taught us to be skeptical of black women and their intentions. If you are a woman and ever claimed to a man, “I don’t hang around women.” you know where I am coming from.
3) In China there are more men than their are women. Guess who has the upper-hand in dating and marriage prospects? The women, because of simple supply and demand. They can more easily set the prices. “Good” black women are in large supply. In a world where there are millions of interesting women who are only a few finger clicks away(and who are not looking at marriage), why should a man that has the world open to him settle down? Marriage is constricting? What is the incentive? Love? Companionship? This is not 1950. Today the burden of proof in regards to marriage, sadly for some, falls more so on the ladies.
4) Marriage might be a great move but today it is not a smart one. 50 percent of American marriages end in divorce. 50 percent! Would you fly if 50% of the plans crashed. Usually the man gets left holding the bill. For a man that has worked his life to “make it” losing half is scary and very possible when looking at the numbers.
The best thing sisters/women can do is be honest about what you want from a man FROM DAY ONE. If marriage by 35 is your goal and you are 34 be brave enough to make a manaware of it. This way he will not waste your time….and you will not waste his.
@dave, very good observations.
@dave,
i was with you until number 4. the percentage analogy doesnt hold water because it doesnt apply in other areas of our life. i mean, if you met a young brotha who wanted to go to college, would you tell him “man, f*ck college. only like 7 percent of us graduate from college anyway. would you get in a car that had a 93 percent chance of crashing?”
@The Champ,
Champ, brother I hear you. But college is an individual risk. The reward/failure is your own. It is dependent on your actions only. And I would take a 7% chance if it were my best way to an end. College is the best way to an end nowadays (employment, money) for many of us. Today, marriage may not even be the best way to an end (Love, happiness, personal fulfillment, companionship) but just another option….a more costly one.
@dave, Usually the man gets left holding the bill. For a man that has worked his life to “make it” losing half is scary and very possible when looking at the numbers.
if you’re an athlete or entertainer maybe. fact is, married black women in most cases earn close to half of a household’s income. a black man who marries a black woman doesn’t lose half of what’s his; he loses his wife’s contribution to household income plus or minus child support payments.
@tiffany,
Pretty much. And aside from a few celebrity cases, most men get off easy with child support payments. Ask most of the single mothers you know if those child support checks she’s getting actually cover half the cost of getting the child fed, clothed, medical/dental care, to and from school plus extras like soccer practice, daycare, paper maiche for social studies projects, days off from work everytime the kids is sick, the smelly ass pets little Junior loves (and the pets need medical insurance too! lol), vacations,toys, Webkinz/Club Penguin fees, school book fairs, etc. Most will tell you a resounding “NO!”
@tiffany,
Good point. But I thought we were talking about brothers and sisters who are not doing bad for themselves. Not the average baby mama and daddy. With that said, do you know of any sisters being taken to the cleaners?
I don’t know of any sisters yet but I do know of some brothers:)
@tiana, why do you feel its waiting?
Marriage is just another business transaction. If there’s love there, then awesome. But love doesn’t pay the bills. Love doesn’t feed you. Marriage is about sitting down and writing out and constantly revising a contract based on the desires of the two (or three or four … if you get down like that) parties involved.
So unless I want to go into business with you, why would I marry you? I’ve seen what marriage can do to people. It stifles them and makes them better and unpleasant to be around. And yes, I have seen a successful one or two but they work because there is a monetary understanding and agreement above all else.
It’s not just successful brothas. But maybe I’ve been thinking too much like a man these days. I honestly just got sick of society forcing on me this idea that I had to be married by a certain age and have children and a certain job. Blah blah blah. GTFOH with that. I’ll get married, if I get married, when I’m good and freaking ready.
@Miss Smith,
God help the person who’s marrying someone who looks at it as just a business transaction
welcome and sh*t, btw
@The Champ, sad to say, but miss smith is (mostly) right. throughout history, marriage was way more about securing wealth, building wealth, transferring wealth, gaining power, preserving prestige, consolidating kingdoms or finding someone who could spin wool into yarn while you tended the sheep and crops so both of y’all could eat.
love was a concern, but in most societies, mom and dad could and would veto a marriage if it wasn’t economically advantageous.
even now that love is our primary motivator, most people ain’t trying to marry someone worse off than they are in terms of education and income potential.
damn…more relationship statistics and crap. yay.
no but really, why this is a great conversation that will probably last my entire life, i’fd like to know what anyone thinks about this new music industry= Illuminati, jay, beyonce and lady gaga are the devil rumors…
lol
@collegebunni,
new music industry= Illuminati, jay, beyonce and lady gaga are the devil rumors… .
::snickering::
ME TOO! I can’t decide. The conspiracy theroist in me, is inclined to agree. The “realist” in me
(aka I’s a fan and don’t want to become an unfan)is saying that if you look for something you will find it. If someone were to examine my life, doodles, sayings, I too may be a devil worshipper.*Kanye
soul sellershrug*@V Renee,
“My wang is in the Illuminati, because it is incessantly successful, and it’s videos are full of disturbing imagery.”
So, in essence… there’s my take on the whole thing.
Carry on.
@collegebunni,
, i’fd like to know what anyone thinks about this new music industry= Illuminati, jay, beyonce and lady gaga are the devil rumors…
Hilarious!
@collegebunni,
i’fd like to know what anyone thinks about this new music industry= Illuminati, jay, beyonce and lady gaga are the devil rumors…
I blame YouTube.
Seriously.
@collegebunni,
i’fd like to know what anyone thinks about this new music industry= Illuminati, jay, beyonce and lady gaga are the devil rumors…
illuminate deez
@Tiana-Co-sign!
Its a horrible thing! Black men are marriage phobic like no other. It just kills me inside. Come out of your comfort zone sometimes black man. Step out on love. Life is about risks and taking chances. Marriage is a risk but its a choice, too. Decide you will be married and put in that work. Stop being scared of what it all means, or what’s going to happen. Just believe in the choice you made and do what you have to do. Is being single and dating multiple women really all that fulfilling? If you are living with a wonderful woman. Why aren’t you married to her? Come on black man! Ya’ll sharing bills, lives, love kids and you can’t marry her? Talk to me. Ya’ll are gettin really ridiculous with the marriage phobia. See a Therapist or something…please. But, by all means. get your acts together,
@QueenT,
Some perspective from “other side.” I have never been married, but I have more than my fair share of white male friends who have. They are all now divorced. Most if not all got taken to the cleaners in that divorce. The one that didn’t get hosed? His wife was gracious enough not to steamroll him. Yay for him!
When what you KNOW you will lose is vastly greater than what you THINK you will gain, you will extremely hesitant to wed.
@Stank-0, co-sign….
@Stank-0, talk to some men who are happily married, then. There are two ways this can go. You don’t know why those dudes you talked to got a divorce. Stop worrying about what someone is going to get in a divorce and WORK on making the marriage a success so that there is no divorce. Like Jada and Will said, divorce is not an option so we might as well work on keeping each other happy, Nothing worth having comes easy.
@QueenT, @Me Fail English,
I’m not head in the clouds about marriage. It is/will be hard work. Probably the hardest work of my entire life. With this realism, comes the realization that the divorce rate didn’t get to where it is by white/blue/black magic.
I have seen and continue to see successful marriages. I continue to ask them questions. The wife tells me more than the husband for obvious reasons.
@Stank-0,
“When what you KNOW you will lose is vastly greater than what you THINK you will gain, you will extremely hesitant to wed.”
Again, this sounds perfectly reasonable, but there’s gotta be an X factor at work. Aren’t men the sex with higher appetites for risk. More likely to move far from home, take a huge financial risk like starting a biz or investing in junk bonds, play extreme sports, etc. That’s what makes yall the CEOs, the more highly compensated employees, the leaders, etc. Why are yall all of a sudden risk averse and cautious when it comes to smthg like marriage?
@Me fail english?, maybe there’s no worse risk than a woman who goes bad on us?
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
“maybe there’s no worse risk than a woman who goes bad on us?”
bingo!
even the ballsiest, most alpha male man you can find is scared shitless of having a woman he’s in love with hurt him.
@Stank-0, YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!!
There it is right there…THE EFFIN CLEANERS!!! We discussed just how much security is a fleeting thing in our careers, we may be the first to go at any moment, so once we have what we have been working our whole lives for…we don’t want to lose it all, ESP when we have seen those that did.
How likely is it to happen? Hell, look at the stats on divorce. Chances are if you are in a certain tax bracket, you are working a certain number of hours, meaning she more than likely may not be too happy about that to begin with.
So you’re out here slaving, and when you FINALLY make it back home, she has been thinking/watching a movie/talking to “insert said devil in your life that influences her”/listening to wendy/tyra/oprah/dr phil and had some kind of an epiphany so now you have to face whatever role she has up her sleeve tonight be it a doc/lawyer/therapist/priest/mom dukes etc.
It just always seems like she has something to complain about, whether some are legitimate or not, and chances are its just some shit you don’t have the energy to deal with. She remains unhappy, makes you unhappy, and she decides she wants out…all that shit you worked for, gone. we’ve said it on here before, being married to the wrong one is one of our greatest fears. and its hard to tell who the right one is because imo, and that of many of my friends (both male and female), women always seem to change it up on you when you thought it was all good in the hood. Are you willing to risk your assets to the whims of a woman who may feel scorned, in what may just be the normal cycle of a relationship?
I’m just saying, asset preservation, is just as important as asset accumulation.
@HabitualLineCrossa, yeah, put it all on the woman. She’s going to change. She’s going to take MY assets. She’s going to complain too much….the negativity is endless. I understand realism but get married first and then speak on it, AFTER you have something to really speak on, and not going by what somebody else told you. Im just saying……
@QueenT,
“yeah, put it all on the woman. She’s going to change. She’s going to take MY assets. She’s going to complain too much….”
Thank you. “32 reasons why men cheat” was like two weeks ago. But somehow today it’s all beyond a man’s control to make sure his marriage doesn’t go south and the only reason people can cite for divorce is “She nags me”, “She makes me go to parties”, “I dont know if I wanna be an accountant or a dancer”, etc.
On second thought, lack of accountability and self-centeredness are great reasons to abstain from marriage.
@QueenT,
1. I actually am married.
2. I have slaved like a bunch of my friends to get to the place that we all wanted to be at this stage in our lives (some within reasonable expectations, and others have surpassed them).
3. I did say that some of her complaints may be legitimate,so thats not putting it all on her, just saying that these are things that we all go through in a relationship.
4. I have seen in my circle of friends, and colleagues, marriages fail and men being the main bread winners, get taken to the cleaners. There are only two people in the world I would wish that on, but thats a different story.
5. I guess you and all women will continue to view it as negativity…ask most married man, they’ll either agree to the negativity and unnecessary drama, or concede that they are lucky.
I’m just saying…
@HabitualLineCrossa,
I appreciate you rollin with me, but your diatribe sounded very personal.
I know myself too well to know it’s NOT ALL her fault. That’s childish…this is VSB.
Must I put my finger in an electric socket to know it will shock me?
@Stank-0, see my response to QueenT above, specifically #3.
It may sound personal, given that I have seen some good guys cleaned out, for things that I would assume the average rational being would consider a petty, or an unreasonable request.
Nothing else needed to be said because this right here said it all
“basically, as long as its not socially unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.”
Women need to stop doing any and everything before getting married and then more women would be married. So many women are content with just playing house or being someone’s baby momma and its saddening to me. If all women stuck together and said we are going to put up with this anymore, that we deserve better, that won’t mess with married men, or that won’t give their all to a man that refuses to marry them, then men would get some get right and step their game up or that would have no choice but to be gay. But this will never happen. Women will never come together in this regard. There would always be some superhead type of chick roaming that crowd that would hinder progress.
Happy New Year guys and love ya much. Just wanted to let you know that RBW is no longer so you can update your blog roll. The new site is http://ebtheceleb.com
@Eb the Celeb,
thanks and sh*t, eb
also, for the eligible (eligible = employed or at least employable and still in possession of the majority of your teeth) brothas reading this, why haven’t you put a ring on it yet?
My main reason for putting off marriage is not being where I want to be in life. I know for a lot of cats they want to make sure they have things in place as much as possible before they make that move. Another reason I think brothas are hesitant is because of bad seeing bad relationships. I do have to admit that a lot of it is not wanting to grow up. I have friends with 2 kids by the same chic. These dudes are still trying to get it in. I don’t get it. I asked both of them “at this point why are you still trying to be out here?” I would think that having 2 kids by the same woman would make you say that “I need to be on some other ish cause I got a family now”.
@Humble_One,
“at this point why are you still trying to be out here?”
they wanna be forever young and sh*t
Being ahead of the curve is the correct answer. There just isn’t really a good reason to get married in today’s day and age. The institution of marriage and the American Family Court system favors women to the point that it makes getting married a sucker’s bet. I view marriage as something you do when you want to have children, and I don’t want any children, and the headaches and lack of freedom that comes with being tethered to them and the woman who bore them for the rest of my life.
@Legendary Dash,
“The institution of marriage and the American Family Court system favors women..”
Say this!
@Legendary Dash, Okay. Are you currently dating or living with a woman you love? If not. cool. If so, don’t you think at some point this woman may want to marry and (or) have kids? Or are you both on the same page on that? That will be the challenge for you, finding a woman who is on the same page as you with all of this. However, if you just plan on dating around indefinitely then continue to do you….
@QueenT,
Eh, when she starts wanting to have kids and what not, she should move on to greener pastures and more kid friendly pastures. Children is just a compromise I have no intention of making.
@Legendary Dash, PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Legendary Dash,
This response makes sense for you. But I think a lot of single, “eligible” black men with teeth do want kids eventually. They have biological clocks and everything.
@Me fail english?,
Men don’t have biological clocks. There is no manopause.
@Legendary Dash,
lmfao @ “manopause”. But yeah, you’re right. Your comment reminds me of the exchange in When Harry Met Sally:
Sally: No, no, no, I drove him away. And, I’m gonna be forty.
Harry: When?
Sally: Someday.
Harry: In eight years.
Sally: But it’s there. It’s just sitting there, like some big dead end. And it’s not the same for men. Charlie Chaplin had kids when he was 73.
Harry: Yeah, but he was too old to pick them up.
@Legendary Dash,
Yeah they do though. It’s not “biological” but it is the male equivalent. But like Cheekie (and Harry) alluded to, a good portion of men want to still be young and active when their children (especially their boys) are going through their formative years. Trust me. I have no less than three male bosses who waited until their 40s to have their first child and it’s a pretty sore spot.
@Me fail english?,
This is true…we don’t want to have to worry about throwing some joint out of place when we’re teaching our sons (or daughters, for that matter) how to throw a spiral…
Although we’ll never admit it, most men who are active, participatory fathers probably enjoy the idea of being Superman to their children…and Superman shouldn’t walk with a limp.
Although we’ll never admit it, most men who are active, participatory fathers probably enjoy the idea of being Superman to their children…and Superman shouldn’t walk with a limp.
i dont know if i should say “good point” or “shots fired”
I wonder if this trend is changing because I’ve seen the number of friends getting married recently going up by a lot. I have 10 friends getting married this year and half are black women getting married to black men. They are all professional women who are all successful.
@Leila,
i wouldnt be surprised if the trend was reversing. sometimes all it takes is something as simple as a barack and michelle to alter some perceptions about marriage.
@The Champ, Yes, I completely agree.
Oh and also, I wonder about the age group of those polled. Is it that people really aren’t getting married, or that they’re just getting married later?
@KaNisa, it may be that blacken and women are getting married to each other later but half the time they are getting divorced. Is getting the contract the old/new “be all to end all?” Can you have a “successful” relationship outside of traditional contract? Can you draw more successful terms? Can we get past conditioning and the glaring eye of society at large and it’s mandates? Are we more concerned with reputation than charachter?
Can somebody please define “successful”. . .
@GtuddaC,
employed or at least employable and still in possession of the majority of your teeth
@The Champ,
I like how you put “in possession”. Like they dont have to be embedded in gums or a skeleton or anything. Just know where you last left your canister of teeth and you’re good.
@Me fail english?,
Bwhahahahaha!!
@GtuddaC,
apparently it means, “I feel that I look great on paper, but I’m boring as sh*t or cardinally unattractive in some other way, and that’s the real reason I’m alone, but I’m going to call it ‘successful’ so that other people can empathize with the cross i must bear.”
“It’s not just successful brothas. But maybe I’ve been thinking too much like a man these days. I honestly just got sick of society forcing on me this idea that I had to be married by a certain age and have children and a certain job. Blah blah blah. GTFOH with that. I’ll get married, if I get married, when I’m good and freaking ready.” Miss Smith
(slow clap for Miss Smith)
“Marriage” is a legal contract. Do we desire a legal contract that’s standard for everyone? (if at all.) What are your truest desires? They may not have much to do with a “cookie cutter” contract. Times and values and situations have changed and what society says we should want may not be what we really desire or need. So if we are always trying to discover why things are the way they are, look inside yourself and ask yourself; is the standard marriage contract what you’re really after? If not, what is it, and can you have it under your own terms? We have protested for change risked life and limb for legal changes that need constant revamping but we accept societies archaic struture on the business of marriage. Are you worried more about your reputation or your charachter? If there’s a “problem” with a lack of black on black “marriage” it looks like it’s working itself out quite naturally. (dating out, non traditional couplings etc.) Someone mentioned the current recession we are in maybe motivating people to start businesses together, well that’s what marriage is at the end of the day. Every person “worthy” to marry, will. And the the reasons won’t all be negative by any stretch.
@BA, MA, PHD, MD, JD…,
welcome and sh*t
*Correction*
Not every person “eligible/worthy” to marry will do so and the reasons won’t primarily have to be negative and in choosing not to get married decidedly constitutes a negative result for black people.
Happy New Year!
I don’t think that educated black men are marriage-phobic. It’s just that with education, they tend to spend the extra time to find a sister that really compliments them. While most men can run out and marry any woman with any education background, most educated black men don’t do that. They look for the woman they can “take to the corporate events,” as my law student friend would say. lol
@Ivy St., I think thats just as much a cop out as the successful black woman cant find a man.
While I agree there are some men out there that will review pedigree, income, and education in most cases the successful men are enjoying success and waiting until they are ready to settle down.
A lot of successful men marry regular chicks that are self sufficient.
I hate to quote hip-hop in serious discussions, but I think it all ties in to a line from Little Brother, “every man remembers how his daddy and his uncles did it–’cause more than likely, that’s the way they gonna do it.” I believe that.
Unfortunately that probably applies to me on the mom end so Imma try not to get cheated on, beat down, and become a born-again Christian in 20 years.
@TYB,
when you mentioned a little brother quote, i assumed you were gonna cite this one:
“a woman’s life is love, a man’s love is life’
welcome and sh*t, btw
@The Champ,
“a woman’s life is love, a man’s love is life”
This particular one so cold, he couldn’t have possibly coined that himself.
I Men have longer to figure it out. They dont have to be married by 30 and have 2 kids by 35 because their biological clock is ticking and the chances of going through early menopause have been greatly increased by the hormones in the chicken mcnugget meals.
I think the education thing comes into play simply because college, especially post grad, takes up a good bunch of your “man finding” years.
So if you get a masters degree and a good job, you dont really concentrate on dating till your OVER 25. Which puts a lot of pressure on you to meet that 30-35 married with kids time line.
When men who are 30-35 are just getting settled as well but not feeling the same amount of pressure
Add to this all the cultural differences already mentioned above….and you have a little bit of a disparity with what successful black men at 30-35 are looking for and successful black women are looking for
but that doesnt mean they wont ever get it together or that 30-35 year old successful black men wont get married.
@shay-d-lady,oh well my reasoning on the waiting comment. well i feel that black men are more scared of committment and now a days dating outside of the race. i feel like all these horrible stats are about unmarried black women trying to find black men and waiting for black men to settle down. then other stats seem like black men are the only ones who don’t want black women, they take longer to committ, they are more scared, they view success differently than white/asian/hispanic males. It just seems that with these stats it all has to do with black men having their shit together but not wanting to commit and the black women who are upset about it. or the black men not having their shit together and still not wanting to committ and the black women who are upset about it. while black men get their act together (or not) are we suppose to wait? don’t get me wrong men make you crazy no matter who they are but we seem more upset about the black males of today. not that there’s no drama with interracial dating but there are more stats on black women waiting for black men to get their shit together. again I ask why are we waiting on black men? lol
@tiana, I think all of that is propaganda and hype. The statistics are being skewed to paint a very disturbing, but not necessarily true picture.
on a side note…off subject a lil…I dont have a problem with interracial dating but I have a big problem with it being used as threat to make black men get their shyt together..
@shay-d-lady, lmao! a threat? naw. I don’t need to threaten a black man to get what I want. Matter of fact why would I need to threaten anyone? Women all want to be loved and if a short midget from ireland treats you like a queen and you’re in love then it’s all good. I’m just saying there is love in other places. They find love in other places so why can’t black women? Love is love. but if you’re dating outside of your race out of spite toward black men, then you know how long that charade is going to last. and i don’t do charades. and if you only wait on a certain type of man (black men, rich men, athletes,etc) then you can miss out on other men. if any man doesn’t want to committ it’s time to move on period. especially if you put in work for a long time and get nothing in return. black, white whatever.
@tiana, it was a side note and was not directed at you personally. But again I do feel that many women do seem to use it as a threat. I dont know how you or anyone else defines threat but to me saying “If black men dont get their shyt together, I am going to date outside the race” and/or similar sentiments=threat.
I won’t attempt to speak for brothers in general as to why they won’t put a ring on it, but I am willing to share my reason. It essentially boils down to this: I have not met the right one.
@Caballeroso,
I have not met the right one.
good reason
I think this is a spiritual connection gone a rye.
@WuDaMan,
“I think this is a spiritual connection gone a rye.”
lmao @ “a rye”.
Why did this comment suddenly make me want a corned beef sammich?
@Cheekie,
cuz you been to zells before… LOL
@WuDaMan, With or without mustard?
You show me a successful person that is EAGER to take a chance on a business venture knowing the success rate is at about 50%, and I’ll show you somebody who is perpetually broke, or actually gets it to work and is therefore the luckiest sumbeech alive.
Everyone cannot own a restaurant, and many do not want to, because even though they enjoy the hell outta food, they have no IDEA how to run that business, and make it CONTINUE to be fruitful past the initial “Hey, Look! A new trendy place to eat” stage.
I’ve been open to marriage for about 5 years or so. Has it happened? nope. Why? Cuz I’m not a reckless individual who feels the need to jump into a LIFE-LONG contract unless I know it’s right.
I do not subscribe to the “Jagged Edge” theory of marriage, yo. Maybe that’s just me…
@Dante_Alexander,
“You show me a successful person that is EAGER to take a chance on a business venture knowing the success rate is at about 50%,”
Actually, I know LOTS of people who fit this description. Why do you think the return on junk bonds are so high?! Foreign equities in volatile markets? Also, business owners in general fall in this category. Most new businesses show no profits for the first year, if ever…since the majority of them crash, burn and fail. Yet we have no shortage of VC firms looking to get in with them at the ground floor. Without risk, the reward is paltry. I thought men “got” this better than women which is why I never carped about the inequitable payscale.
@Me fail english?,
I ? when people talk finance, risk, NPV, CF, ROI…all that. lol
@V Renee,
LOL. Me too! I’m catching up on my old issues of Fast Company. Plus I was lurking Motley Fool during the VSB holiday hiatus. I love that ish!
Make money, money! Make money, money, money!
@Me fail english?,
I know many people like this too. And they lose. And win. And lose again. And win.
Which I suppose is tantamount to Elizabeth Taylor.
Or my Dad.
Either way… no quiero.
@Dante,
touche. I don’t want the Donald Trump “trial & error” story for my love life.
@Me fail english?, while I understand, I disagree with your point here sista I love you too
Whereas the high risk/high return factor is a given, how many of those investors place all their life savings, and become as leveraged as possible to make those investments? 99% of the time, high risk high return investments are part of an overall portfolio, diversification is the key to wealth preservation.
and yeah, we try to apply that same philosophy in our personal lives too lol
@HabitualLineCrossa,
Can’t argue with that logic. BF wants babies and I (not wanting pre-marital babies) am scared sh1tless when he brings ANY of this up. I will be stealing this argument for future talks.
@Dante_Alexander,
“I do not subscribe to the “Jagged Edge” theory of marriage, yo. Maybe that’s just me…”
Cosign 100%. i got into a argument with my homeboy about this. Age is a VERY poor excuse for getting married and having kids. If I hear one more woman or man say I want to do “insert married or having child here” before a certain age it will be too soon. How about you get your ish together before you do those things? It seems that some people think it’s still 1948. People don’t realize that people didn’t start getting married young until after WWII. Just like the whole “Leave it to Beaver” an “Ozzie an Harriet” lifestyle didn’t start until after WWII.
@Dante_Alexander, 50% is pretty good for a business venture that has the potential for really high returns. The returns from marriage are unremarkable and not scare at all and therefore not worth the risk.
@Legendary Dash,
Think about what you just said tho…
A 50% SUCCESS rate. Not a 50% return. What is success? Just staying together, from what I gather.
Take not into account the failure rate leaves you with half of what you started with anyway, PLUS continual losses fro the remainer of the maturation term of any subsequent joint ventures you two went in on together via alimony or child support…
It’s tough. Very tough.
That still don’t mean i ain’t open to it, though…
“basically, as long as its not socially unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.”
You could have started and ended your post with this statement alone. It’s not just with relationships. When people are not held accountable or held to a standard, they will simply do whatever others allow them to do.
@Ivyette,
You could have started and ended your post with this statement alone.
where would the fun be in that?
@Ivyette,
When people are not held accountable or held to a standard, they will simply do whatever others allow them to do.
Kinda like women for instance.
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Kinda like women for instance.
Whoa….below the belt there, aren’t we?
@Ivyette, oh, to see things through a man’s eyes.
I wonder how black men and black women feel about their relationship status constantly being put into statistics. Why do we have to generalize? I wonder if the constant generalization and statistics are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of perpetual singleness.
I’m a young sbf, but I’m not gonna put myself in any sort group. I’ll get a boo when I’m good and ready.
@POST GRAD,
“I’ll get a boo when I’m good and ready.”
Sounds like a plan. That’s been mine all along.
@POST GRAD,
I can not help but co-sign! It’s getting ridiculous that “our stories” are becoming a circus for the stastistics-minded… And I too believe that the self-prophecy being fulfilled bit is a reality. Believe it hard enough and it just might happen (or has already happened).
@POST GRAD,
You wrote “I’ll get a boo when I’m good and ready.”
I have a problem with that and the logic that it implies is part of the problem. Many successful women have gotten everything when they were good and ready but fail to realize that quality relationships simply do not occur on a convenient calendar. You could be good and ready and not me anyone else who’s good and ready, then what?
I think someone upstream alluded to this
@Plain Ole Pey,
“You could be good and ready and not me anyone else who’s good and ready, then what?”
See, that’s that fear that holds people back in whatever they want to do. You could be good and ready for a great job, but too afraid that the job market isn’t ready for you, etc… Sorry Pey, I don’t live my life in fear of the what if. It takes too much energy and it holds me back.
I don’t have a time line or a date of when I’ll get my boo, but I’m sure it’ll all fall into place when it’s supposed to.
@POST GRAD, I’m not speaking about living in fear. I’m speaking about expecting everyone else to be ready when you are.
@POST GRAD,
Why do we have to generalize?
because what else would we blog about?
welcome and sh*t, btw
@The Champ,
Thanks Champ. I love this blog. You guys are high-larious.
@POST GRAD,
I wonder how black men and black women feel about their relationship status constantly being put into statistics.
They obviously love it since they buy into it so easily and talk about it so goddamn much.
Does it ever occur to folks who have this convo that maybe the individuals aren’t very desirable, as opposed to Black folks are born not to create the traditional nuclear family?
When most married guys speak of their spouse, the comments are not flattering. They speak of the nagging, the complaining, the non-existent sex life, and the insistence that he give up things that make him happy (hanging with the fellas, watching football uninterrupted, etc.) to do things she wants him to do. Essentially, his whole world devolves into losing himself and doing things simply to make HER happy. It seems to me that both parties should do things that make each other happy. Maybe married guys simply don’t talk about the sacrifices she makes, but what is my incentive for pursuing marriage if most married guys only complain about it, what’s the upside (Champs number 3)?
At this time, I come and go as I please, attend only functions that I choose to attend, and do things in the way that I chose to do them on the schedule that I choose to do them. As I get older, I get more and more set in my way of doing things. For me to be willing to upset this routine would require meeting a special woman who renders all this as unimportant. I have not met such a person.
@Caballeroso, When MOST guys speak on their wives it’s negative? Well, I have heard MANY guys speaking very highly of their wives…change up your circle of men you talk to and get another perspective…don’t just run with the negative.
@QueenT, If only it were a single circle of men. This has seemingly been a universal platform across a multitude of backgrounds, levels of education, social or economic status, and demographics. In some cases it may simply be an off-handed comment, but still it’s so pervasive an occurrence that it cannot simply be ignored.
@Caballeroso,
Slightly unrelated (or maybe not) but those guys are disloyal a*holes and that’s probably part of the reason they’re in crappy rel’ships. Not to say that the women willing to marry them are top shelf either but since you’ve said nothing of them I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt.
What kind of man talks shet about his wife to other dudes? Or anyone for that matter? That’s family. And I don’t care how effed up things are going with the family we don’t air that isht out to the neighbors. I’m not even married and I will not talk isht about my man to my sisters, mom or whomever else. Cuz let someone say smthg about him I dont like…I’m gettin in that ass!
@Me fail english?, Chuuuuuch! I’m the same way. I think it may be a female thing though.
It may not even be that things are so bad when dudes talk about their wives/significant others, they just want sympathy, attention, and ego strokes. It’s what they talk about while watching the game, playing poker, etc…don’t really think it’s all that personal.
I’d only get mad/worried if they are airing this to chicks.
You might be onto smthg…
Now that I think about it, my mama is the one who taught me to be like that. I can’t even vent to her about my Dad without her getting all defensive on some “Don’t be talkin bout my man!”. Meanwhile I could say in passing to my pop…
Me: Is Maw in a bad mood today?
Daddy English: Yeah you know how she be actin’ all stank! And don’t you hate it when she moves your old snot tissues…*blah, blah, blah*
I feel what Caballeroso is saying. Maybe it is not his immediate circle of friends but society as a whole doesn’t paint marriage in a flattering light from the man’s perspective. If you watch TV sitcoms/movies, all of the jokes are about men being emasculated, not getting sex (or enough, or the kind that he got before he got married), not having a say, losing their freedom or time with their friends, etc. Society paints marriage as something that men “give in to” or “succumb to” as opposed to something that they should aspire to or celebrate.
@Caballeroso, Um…once you’re married it’s not about “you.” It’s about “the family” (Husband and Wife, or parents and children) I understand the standard complaining of game watching, not getting secs as often, etc, that happens when you get settled. You even see it on Roseanne, The Cosbys all the TV families.
(Though if it’s all that bad they could honestly speak up and fix it if they have a mature relationship.) Oh and kids bring an extra strain as the dude is no longer her first priority…
If you have a negative outlook about marriage and how it will be, it’ll probably be hard for you to see it any other way…even if you meet someone who you inexplicably want to protect and provide for. I say stop putting so much stock in what other people do, make and live up to what YOU want out of a relationship/marriage, and find someone that thinks like you. Eff what society says it should be like…what do YOU want?
@Caballeroso,
Wait about twenty years and see how many of your boys would rather be single and lonely than married and at a dinner party. I’d bet money they’re still bitchin about smthg. They just found a new list of things to cry about.
“basically, as long as its not socially unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.”
This is a good argument and shizzle. Which is a shame in and of itself in terms of the possiblity that this changes (slim to none). Because I have to ask, who mostly determines what’s socially acceptable? Men, right? lol
@Cheekie,
Because I have to ask, who mostly determines what’s socially acceptable? Men, right? lol
this is (partially) true.
@The Champ,
In the words of your illustrious self, “please expound”.
I just wanted to say that I for one LOVE BLACK MEN!
I know that wasn’t what was prompted in the post…but hey! I wanted to let ‘em know.
Also, I think mothers play a role in whether or not our men want to put a ring on it. If any of ya’ll have younger sisters, there is still hope though, shoo my lil bro and his friends got they ish together!
WORD UP! Lol
@Naomi, I FULLY love them too! Black men are quite incredible!
@Naomi,
I just wanted to say that I for one LOVE BLACK MEN!
thanks and sh*t. we love ya’ll too
Have any of you ladies talked to a married man who was willing to be honest. I mean not one of the guys you used to date (always skeptical of this) or your girlfriends husband. I have several male friends aged 30 and up who are married with children and like the post above said they complain about it. They will tell you, “do not do it.” Not all of them but more than 50 percent.
I have had the same conversation with married women who will tell you that it is not all what it is advertised. Life as a black man trying to stay above ground is hard enough. To keep a woman happy for 40 years of marriage….that’s a lot of work and in the busy world we live in I am not sure it is worth it.
@Dave, Most of my married male friends if they could go back….WOULD NOT get married. They would have put aside the “bougie black family” formula and went for what they wanted until they decided to have children or felt like having a long-term companion ( both of which you can get without marriage lately).
@Kamilah, Agreed. I know tons of people (black people) that are married and I can only name 2 successful ones. All my boys that are the ages 27 to 35 that are married are absolutely miserable. Since the law of averages say the odds are against me why try to defy it.
@xave, I think you defy it if you really want it, no statistic will define your life unless you let it….but that level of resolve requires being honest with ourselves and since we as a community love to postualte on the corner of Front Street instead of just being open, the “formula” will continue on it’s merry way toward Miserable Avenue.
@Kamilah, I am going to continue to be with the same woman, have kids and if one day she decides to take a day off from the firm and go to city hall we can go get married. I don’t need the spectacle
@Dave,
welcome and sh*t, i think
@The Champ,
LoL! Thanks Champ.
Let’s be real here…
I don’t go around touting how successful I am, because I believe most women should just STFU and observe me enough to understand what type of man I am. I know…I’m asking for too much with the STFU but…
1. RE: Also most of the white guys have family who encourage, support and advocate “marrying that nice girl” while older black men tell brothas like me to “take your time.” Probably based off of their experiences and their wished to return to a younger time to right their wrongs.
I also know that trying to get with a “profesional” and/or “successful” woman (whatever that may be) requires time and a lot of them can never admit that they have little to no time for a relationship let alone marriage. Cmon now 70-80 hour weeks and you expect to be “romantic?” Might as well set aside a budget for the strippers…
2. RE: Variety is the spice of life. If they didn’t want us to realize this, they never should have told us this.
4. RE: When everyday is a battle, the last thing you want is to have a battle at home. That’s what a lot of us fear…it just takes a matter of time before that sweet woman that cooked 3 times a week, properly sexed us and actually listens turns into the Harpie from Hell or Harlem.
5. RE: Not our fault booty is easy to get…BTW…exactly what are the benefits for marriage again? I didn’t hear them too clearly the first time?
6. RE:
@CPT Callamity, Capn Cam you’re craking me up. You have the same right to love, children, fulfillment, unhapiness and dissatisfaction & restrictions as any married couple and without the contract.
@BA, MA, BS, PHD, MD, JD, MS…,
Ya’ll can have it! I’m just watching the train wreck!
I seek someone of substance as a potential wife and developer of my offspring, but more and more when I meet someone with these ideal, mature, and seemly basic characteristics (i.e. good moral character, won’t embarrass me in public, generally makes wise decisions, is at least average looking, is genuine and without the game play, and is reasonably intelligent), she and I will often simply not have chemistry. Beyond that, if she and I can’t connect on important matters and ideologies, I don’t see the point of marrying just for the sake of being married or to stop people from asking me what I’m waiting for. When I meet the right person, marriage won’t be an issue.
@Caballeroso,
I seek someone of substance as a potential wife and developer of my offspring
lol, this sounds like something dr. spock would say
@The Champ,
..or Prince Akeem
I am going to go with the “No Incentive” excuse, I mean reason. I have been in long term relationship with the same woman, 5 years and we are both financially stable and have a great relationship. I don’t see how having a ceremony and paying the state of NY $95 will make it any better or worse. I just see marriage as an expense. When I hear marriage I think wedding, and when I hear wedding, I think of frivolous waste.
@xave, yeah man I feel ya, BUT, that $95 is a better compromise than the shit they been planning since they could crawl.
@HabitualLineCrossa, Agreed. I can say I won’t “put a ring on it” because I don’t see it as necessity. The more someone keeps telling me to, the more I will tell them no. If having a cermony makes their lives better, they cleary have problems. If not getting married, impedes them from settling down they should re-evaluate life. If it creates some sort of barrier to bare children, they should seek help. If anyone can provide us males with some empirical facts (not some axiomatic BS) that marriage arbitrarily makes your relationship more serious, I will go get married ASAP. Until then, EFF that. Women are on a time table I am not.
Spend 50K on one day when I am here worrying about my 401k and where it went! Why do that when you have your entire lives to worry about. What bothers me is that 80% of these women wouldn’t settle for a modest ceremony. If they can’t get down with city hall or my backyard, it’s not happening.
@xave, What if the woman says SHE/her family will front the expense for the wedding? Will you do it then? I would be curious to know how your lady feels about this marriage issue, if you were willing to be 100% honest……
@QueenT, This is why I love this woman… she is rational. If her family offered to cover the ceremony, she would tell them absolutely not. Help us pay off our condo instead.
@xave, that’s all good if you have a woman who’s on that same program. I however, was brought up in a family (somewhat religious) that values marriage and stable families. The grief that would befall me in my relationship with my family if I tried to do things the way you described could be unbearable. Because all I would hear whenever I went home was how I was basically throwing my life away on a man who doesn’t think enough of me to spend on a wedding and make things official. (BTW I’m not a big fan of dropping $50K on one day either…at this point in my life eloping sounds way more attractive… but the idea of being with someone who wasn’t even willing to compromise on that and have a reasonable wedding makes me shudder)
My mom and dad have been happily married (from what I can see) for nearly 33 years, my grand parents were happily married for about 40 years until my granddad died. My aunt and one of my uncles…happlily married for many years. Two of my uncles married then divorced. Both of the ones who are not married now can’t seem to get their lives together in any other way either…Makes me think there may be a link between ability to sustain a marriage and ability to get it together in general…but anyway….most all the examples I grew up with were happy stable marriages and I would hate to settle for less than that in my own life. Plus I’d like my kids and I and their dad to have the same last name. Thus I refuse to settle for the kind of arrangement you described.
@klysha, “I however, was brought up in a family (somewhat religious) that values marriage and stable families. ”
You presume without justification that not getting married makes you less stable. Is this about you and your significant other or your parents, family and friends?
@xave,
I see where you’re going and I kind of expected you to point out that marriage doesn’t equal stability or lack of marriage doesn’t equal instability. But the truth is people are a lot less willing to just give up and walk away from a legally/spiritually binding union than one that’s bound by a kiss and a promise. Not to say that people don’t walk out on marriages or that people don’t stay committed for life without marrying. But being married at least tends to make people think about it a little harder. Especially if the couple truly understands the gravity of a marital union and the spiritual bond that’s supposed to come with it.
As far as the friends & family, they tend to at least factor into my decisions because I respect their opinions and know that they only want the best for me, but ultimately obviously I wouldn’t marry just to make them happy. I’d be the one having to look at myself in the mirror knowing I compromised my own desire for an actual family with a solid commitment to buy into some guys notion that marriage is worthless (or that spending money to celebrate a union is for suckas or whatever). So like I said that arrangement might work for your girl but a lot of women wouldn’t buy that.
@xave, So, you thinks its plausible for her parents to want to help you pay off your condo as opposed to paying for their daughter to wed you? So, what happens if you guys don’t work out, who gets the condo? Better yet, does her family get their money back if you decide to press on without her OR something happens to her? Why should they invest their hard earned money into your real estate when your relationship isn’t even legally binding…it would make more sense for them to fund the wedding to me. You just don’t want to get married to this young lady for whatever the reason. You are not sure if she is worthy to marry…which is fine, but fess up to it……
@QueenT, I beg to differ… my dear. What if we get married and it doesn’t work out? do they get their money back that they paid for the ceremony? listen, my lady is not like the lot, that is into the show. City hall is good for her. As two eduacated, fairly successful people we both agree that investing in realty so that our children can have something makes more sense than throwing a party and feeding 200 people 180 of them we both don’t even like. If her parents were that interested in investing, pay off her loans from law school or put that money in her IRA or an annuity. In addition, this is why after 5 years into marriage couples are still paying for their wedding. You must reconsider what is important to you. The show or the relationship.
@QueenT, Also, the number one cause given by people who seeking a divorce are finances.
@QueenT,
Actually, that concept is an ancient one…it’s called a dowry…still happens in many countries in Africa, Asia, etc. Bride-to-be’s family offers husband-to-be some type of financial incentive (i.e, livestock, land, money) in exchange for marrying and providing for their kin. Only here in the states, it would be a down payment for a condo/house, a car, etc.
Truth be told, successful black men might be more prone to marry with this concept in mind….let some woman’s family offer Tyquan some real estate (and throw in a goat or two for good measure) and see if he don’t propose with the quickness….
This post hits so close to home especially #1 and this statement:
“basically, as long as its not socially unacceptable for successful brothas to juggle and bone multiple chicks while having half-assed fisher price commitments to them, it’s going to continue to happen.”
I’ve been dating a guy who has a masters degree and a great job, but is he settled? Of course not. He wants to apply to business school and get his MBA and possibly change careers. With that kind of instability it’s hard to think about settling on a woman. If he were white in the same position he’d already be married and working on kid # 2(he’s 32).
He feels like he has all the time in the world to settle on a woman since he doesn’t hear the increasingly loud ticking of a biological clock that I hear as a woman (I’m 33).
I for one am trying not to succumb to the pressure and actually enjoy dating, but it’s tough when everywhere I turn there are articles and news stories reminding me that as a black woman if I want any hope of having kids without pulling a Nadia Sulemon I have to either marry a former convict, an old man, or hang out in the white bars and hope somebody there has a taste for a little caramel chocolate.
@klysha,
I have to either marry a former convict, an old man, or hang out in the white bars and hope somebody there has a taste for a little caramel chocolate.
or just say “f*ck it” and marry an old, white convict
#3 – no upside, is your most salient point.
Now speaking of Tom, Richard, and Harry, I have spent a good amount of time studying them. I’m still haggling with Houghton Mifflin over the publishing rights. But Studies on Homo Sapien Albanius will be coming to a Kindle near you.
In my learned opinion, there are 2 primary reasons why 2520 men have no problem marrying 2520 women. (and considering the shelf life, you’d think they’d be more into black women, but then we should also consider the # of yt cats we know taking Rogaine and Viagra)
1) YT Privilege – Oh, you thought it was all good credit scores and Bernie Madoff schemes. Hell 2 da naw.
With the privilege of getting drunk Freshman to Senior year and stumbling into a nice 5 figure job in accounts management – there comes certain expectations. One of which is honoring your commitments.
If I wanted to roll out on Keisha or N’Bushe and the alimony/child support, I could simply reactivate the passport and find a decent job in Jam Down. My American brethren need only switch back to their nickname (smoke, slim, junebug) and dissappear into some mid sized city in the deep south. Like anyone’s going to think to look for you in Birmingham.
For the less couth of my brethren, it’s pretty easy to dodge child support and be @ the same club next Friday night.
When it comes down to the brutal essence, those kids = her problems. (until we start feeling guilty,say 18 mos after the birth – or more correctly when our mothers start badgering us for pictures of they grandbaby)
Chet? Heath? Jason? No sir. Moving from IBM to Apple still means he has to talk to HR about his wage garnishments.
And best believe Maddie, Jennifer, and Hannah have a good network of P.I’s and Divorce attorneys. (remember when Cheaters was all white?)
2) Game
By and large white guys have less game that black guys.
I’m not saying every brother out there is an ice berg slim clone. Nor am I saying there aren’t a fair amount of us alt-tabbing between World of Warcraft and VSB…
But once you start talking averages the truth comes out.
The avg American man has only 7 partners in his lifetime.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/
7? For the average black man, that’s a decent 6 months.
For the typical VSB man, that’s a quality weekend.
So when confronted by the ample abundance out there, most cats don’t ever get mentally invested in any particular chick long enough for the L word to be on the table, much less marriage.
If I were a black woman dead set on marrying a professional black man and past the prime age of 24, I’d learn to make some fire egusi or wollof rice. Shout to my Ibo and Hausa peeps.
@WestIndianArchie,
“If I were a black woman dead set on marrying a professional black man and past the prime age of 24, …”
LOL! Now women are past their prime at 24? Seriously, this is what makes some women buy into the notion that they must marry before 25 and then settle for less and just be satisfied (sometimes with crumbs) if they are past 25. C’mon, Arch. Even you can’t possibly believe what you typed.
@WestIndianArchie,
But once you start talking averages the truth comes out.
The avg American man has only 7 partners in his lifetime.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/
7? For the average black man, that’s a decent 6 months.
For the typical VSB man, that’s a quality weekend.
So when confronted by the ample abundance out there, most cats don’t ever get mentally invested in any particular chick long enough for the L word to be on the table, much less marriage.
you know what, though. i think that average sounds about right for everyone, regardless of race. i think men who’ve had some, ummm, “success” with women tend to assume that everyone does. but in reality, instead of it being 20 guys each juggling 4 chicks, its 5 or 6 guys juggling 8 while everyone else is either with one chick or hoping for (relative) scraps
Again I say… marriage is what YOU make it, not what society says it should be. Also don’t get caught up in the emotions of love and put a ring on it. Wait it out, let things progress over time. Being in love with someone != happy marriage. It’s actually quite selfish. Actually loving someone selflessly is what makes makes a marriage and it takes time to develop that kind of feeling for someone.
@KaNisa,
i think you lost me. in fact, if i think im lost, thats proof that i probably am
@The Champ, Okay example : Fight or misunderstanding with someone you’re in love with –> You don’t like them as much, they fall off the pedestal and aren’t “the stuff” anymore.
Fight or misunderstanding with someone you love : You’re mad, but you get over it. You still love them, they’re still the stuff, and the pedestal was thrown out long ago.
@KaNisa,
You still love them, they’re still the stuff, and the pedestal was thrown out long ago.
Cosign.
Ok, as someone who is happily married, I am a little bit tired of hearing why men aren’t/shouldn’t be married. My husband and I hear all the time from our friends how much we inspire them as a happily married, young, successful black couple.
Like I’ve said before, you get back what you put out. Marriage is the best. If someone gets into a car accident do you say, “Forget that, I’m never getting into a car!” No, you express sympathy and then hop into your whip and get moving. It’s not all bad. Granted some people shouldn’t and aren’t ready to be married, but this bleak outlook is just too much.
@Mini,
welcome and sh*t. and, what bleak outlook are you referring to?
@The Champ,
I think she’s referring to the majority of today’s comments that portray marriage as the inevitable destruction of one’s self instead of the beautiful collaboration it could be.
@Unanimous, that’s exactly what she is referring to. There are so many marriage naysayers on this blog right now it’s ridiculous.
Except you Unanimous and Mini, and there may be one more I missed, sorry.
@Mini, Well you guys are the exception to the rule. lol which actually proves that the rule exist.
But in all seriouness marriage is not a bad thing. I think its like being in a relationship with a certificate… not a big deal. The problem is that somehow people conjure up ish that makes you think that one day changes the dynamics of everything. That is not true. Outside the scope of taxes, insurance etc. how does it change how two people interact. Always seems to me that the people who thinks the ring or certificate changes things are the ones that have a hard time in marriage.
@xave, all the successful married couples I know and I know a lot (rather closely and not just from the wives perspective) say that the dynamics changed for the better when they said their I dos.
Not to get off point, but maybe, just maybe, we should start to reconsider the institution of marriage (gay marriage/civil unions aside). As earlier posters have noted, marriage is both a legal agreement as well as emotional/spiritual edict; these aspects, however, are not necessarily mutually exclusive…one aspect can be satisfied while the other is not (i.e., there are plenty of couples who are legally married, yet don’t communicate, see, or even love one another, and vice versa). Some benefit more from the legal aspect of marriage, while others benefit more from the abstract….
Having said that, maybe the ease of marrying someone, or better yet, the ease of maintaining a marriage should be reevaluated. A novel idea would be to treat marriage like we do driving privileges. In order to drive legally in this country, one has to maintain certain credentials (i.e., license, proof of registration, etc.). You have to renew your driver’s license every few years, so why not make a marriage license renewable. If you don’t want stay in it, just wait til it expires and don’t renew. I think this would solve a few ppl’s problems….
What ya’ll think???……(looking ’round the room)…..
@DG, That’s interesting….
@DG, Like an escape clause in a contract? lol. You can already do that, an annulment. The best way to get out of it is to claim that you were fraudulently induced into entering the marriage. lol YOu thought she was awsome but she really isn’t
@xave,
Slightly different than an annulment…with those, you still have to take legal action and there is some burden of proof involved(and from my understanding, they’re not always easy to obtain).
When you’re issued a driver’s license, there is an expiration date on the card…so you know that you have to renew your license by July, 25, 2010, or your license will no longer be valid. No action necessary. Can you imagine the same principle applied to marriage? No legal fees…no messy divorce…no nothing. Just don’t renew that sh#%. Marriage expired….boom.
Disclaimer: I totally respect & support the institution of marriage, but I just think differently about it sometimes.
@DG,
I’d be in favor of this!! And yes, anullments aren’t that easy to get. Don’t let Britney Spears fool ya!
@DG and the choir says amen!
At the risk of being lumped into #4, I’m gonna say #6 hits the nail on the head.
Marriage isn’t the end all be all defining stable relationship everyone thinks it is – it’s just the oldest and most common. The sooner we inject some healthy relativity into our understanding of what constitutes a healthy relationship the, uh, healthier and happier we’ll be.
…he says while everyone rolls their eyes.
@Tyler,
I agree. Why do women see marriage as an ending destination? Shouldn’t it signify the beginning of a life together? It seems like a lot of girls I meet just wanna find someone that will marry them instead of finding a man that they are truly compatible with. What happens after we put a ring on it? Is that it?
It scares me to think women view marriage this way. Like after we sign that paper they can just sit around eating ho-ho’s, watching Tyra and doing none of the things they did to bait us lol. I digress…
@Tone Capone,
What women see it as the “end”? For most women I know, even the ones hellbent on marriage for all the wrong reasons seem to look at a marriage as a way to begin..
…amassing shared wealth.
…starting a family.
…building the foundation that will lead you to a comfortable/companionable life as a senior citizen.
The armageddon take on getting hitched seems more male.
@Me fail english?,
LOL…maybe. It just seems like woman want a guy to “put a ring on it” before really knowing him. Don’t be asking me my “intentions” and hinting toward marriage after only 6mos of dating. (True story)
We don’t like to feel pressured!
@Me fail english?,
“The armageddon take on getting hitched seems more male” and it is getting tired too. Great point
Besides I think some men love to throw out the I am miserably married thing to gather sympathy and attention. Shut your mouth, go home and work on the union that you entered with both eyes open, no one forced your grown behind into it.
At the end of all this, I just have to say people are lazy and will find every and any reason (read:excuse) to tarnish the image of marriage. It is not a bed of roses. Yes guys…your lives will change a bit, the woman’s life changes too. She bears your big headed children, adjusts to your funkiness 24/7, has to cut down on her bi-yearly girls trip, and sometimes steps down to make sure you achieve that tired dream of yours (lol ok neglect the tired part). It is called a different stage of life, such changes happen when you incorporate a new person into your life.
A wise man I know used to say…only a truly mature man (even one that has been scorned) can appreciate what marriage is, despite his beliefs. I respect the guys on here that have said they wont put a ring on it because a) they have not found the right one or b) it is just not their calling. All the complaining about what you stand to lose is just plain annoying and selfish, you are not the only one with career goals, future plans and money.
Ok, I return back to lurker-ville.
@Tone Capone,
Yea, all that.
Actually, the point I was making was more why don’t we understand that “not wanting to be married” isn’t the same as “incapable of commitment”
So where does that leave us women who want kids. Its seems the the educated black men and woman vilify the women who have kids out of wedlock and society as a whole frowns upon the single baren (sp?) women with her cats. Men with their b.s reasons not to marry leaves us between a rock and a hard place. I want to have kids and plenty of them as much as I would prefer a ring before hand,I think more regret would be felt if hit 30 with no promise of parenthood in sight.
@SpecialK
I’ve tried to “lock down” 3 women in my life… 2 of them put me off to “focus” on school.. the other just didnt work out.
The point being, on both sides of the table, for a relationship to work, will take sacrifice, point blank. All that to say, timing is a key ingredient, but no one wants to be the one left in the cold with no back up plan just incase it doesnt work… so people put there “goals” ahead of relationships, when there one in the same.
*sad face*
non successful brothas always want to put a ring on it. well, not always, but more often than you’d like and in much higher numbers than successful ones. except they don’t even want to put a ring on it. they want to put a “RANG” on it. RANG. i don’t want nobody’s damn rang.
@charli skipper,
and you don’t want a nonsuccessful brotha because he can be a dog too. so if you’re gonna be with someone who’s flawed anyway, you might as well be with a flawed person with whom you can maintain your cute car and freshly waxed lifestyle. and, no, that doesn’t make you demanding or a golddigger. AND, “successful” brothas are selfish because they don’t want to put a ring on it but they want to date your a*s til you get old and don’t have as high a market value. oh noooooooooooooooooo, you’re not going to get me like that
jamal.@charli skipper,
AND i might be off topic. i’m in a hurry. plus, no shade, but ugly women always have a man.
@charli skipper,
Cause fine ones are holding out for Boris Kodjoe or a dude with a stock porfolio and a benz
@charli skipper,
AND i might be off topic. i’m in a hurry. plus, no shade, but ugly women always have a man.
LOL…that was kinda harsh, darling…true, perhaps…but harsh still.
Here’s the real honest truth…
Man don’t get married because women dont put the pressure on them too. Just like women, men do 90% of what we do to impress ya’ll. The money, swag, cribs, cars have minimal to do with us, but more to do with how many women each attracts. David Banner said it best, If women stopped dating drug dealer, dudes would stop selling dope 3 days later. I have two sisters, and I’ve always told them: You chose who and what you put up with in your life. A man has to ask for your number, ask to come over, ask for a date, ask for sex, and eventually ask for your hand in marriage… So to me, the decison lies with who/what women allow in there lives. Women need to make better decisions and stop doing things contradictory to there desires. For example: If you want a God fearing man, stop hanging at the club and try Bible study; want a man to settle down, dont drop the drawers; want a man to communicate, try listening. I know it sounds to simple to work, but you cant play the game and exspect not to get played. There are plenty of educated and successful men that want to get into a stable relationship (myself included), but not with someone who’s ideas are shaped by reality tv. What depth do u have, what besides a degree defines you, whats the last thing you’ve done in your community… If your walking the walk, dismissing the BS, you’ll be more than ready to handle the “Right Man” when he presents himself, and less likely to lose him because you compared him to the last 4 bozo’s…
@That Guy,
This theory is actually flawed for the simple fact that women have created the “how low can you go” competition when it comes to dating. There’s even a song for it telling women, “what you won’t do for your man, some other woman will.” Now those of us who wouldn’t give it up on the first date are getting passed over for the chicks who not only give it up, but get up the next morning and cook breafast, on the first date.
Doing too much is an epidemic amongst women, but with that being said, your statements also don’t say much about the integrity of men. So, now we do things simply because we can get away with them? #nobueno
I’m all for city hall, too. That sounds wonderful. I was merely suggesting if her parents offered to pay for a wedding because they wanted to celebrate your union with friends and loved ones, would you let them..or perhaps, they could throw you a reception after the city hall ceremony? The question now is, when are you going to city hall? That is the million dollar question, but you said, you are waiting for her to take time off from the firm? Are you engaged to this young lady?
@QueenT, engaged? engagements are lame. If you want to get married just go do it. If she woke up one day said sweethear lets go to city hall. I would be there bright and early hat in hand.
Hmmm. Can we explain to the all the children being raised by single mothers how they should be happy because Black men are ahead of the curve? I know that reason was crossed out, but it was also still left on the list.
@ xave, I responded somewhere else by mistake but traditionally it is expected that a woman’s family pays for the wedding, and it is expected that there is no financial return on that investment but they are investing in their daughters future with a nice young man, that will eventually bring forth grandkids and such…..they know that daughter is legally bound to you and should things go astray she can fall back on the contract and get what is deserved. That unfortunately, cannot happen if there is no contract, in the first place. But, city hall sounds wonderful…..and I agree that a wedding isn’t absolutely necessary but it is a nice thing to share with family and friends. Like Bey says, if you love it you should put a ring on it……good luck.
@QueenT, that contract means what ever whatever we agree on. obviously two people whether married or not would not buy property without establishing some sort of agreement. Like the old folks say, “the only thing that lasts forever is salvation” and the abismal rates of people staying married (less than 50% now) proves that. A major problem with most marriage dogma is this contractual bond. So why not a verbal agreement? My woman is a feminist… 100%. This is what we discussed at year four of our relationship and she said, “i dont care about doves and white dresses. never did. never will.”
@xave, I’m sorry Xave but I think you know a verbal agreement doesn’t hold water. Heck, sometimes, pre-nuptial agreements are overturned in court. But, that is all splendid if you are rolling with that verbal agreement. That is very honorable indeed. What is a feminist nowadays? Are women still proclaiming feminism? I thought that went out in the 70′s? Unlike, a lot of the naysayers on this blog I believe you will get married sooner rather than later.
@xave,
My woman is a feminist… 100%.
Run. (especially if she’s a feminist in the traditional sense)
This is what we discussed at year four of our relationship and she said, “i dont care about doves and white dresses. never did. never will.”
Is she talking about the actual wedding or marraige? This my be a defense mechanism.
@Ivyette, I feel bad for how everyone has dissected xave’s relationship. I think we should all back off :-p
That defense mechanism thing is so so true, I’m just saying…most times we (women) adopt certain beliefs because that’s what our men (who might be good men) are stuck on and we know its either we adapt or get out.
Not all of us like the idea of spending 50 grand (although some of us do it for the sake of culture etc) but most of us like to celebrate such life changes with those we love and cherish…no matter how small the celebration is.
Maybe I’m a little late with taking the floor here, but it’s still worth it.
-The best time to marry is when you’ve gotten a lot of stuff out of the way, out of your system, etc. Not a good idea to get deep into a relationship when you still have this, that, and the other to accomplish…all these dreams and wild oats to sow, unless s/he is truly down when you’re riding the bus, to paraphrase Ed O.G. Though in the wild oats case, you don’t need to be in a relationship at all.
-One thing I notice: Guys complain about wives, but not about girlfriends, Ladies complain about boyfriends, but not about husbands. Hmmm…
-Americans are their own persons. Unlike Africans and Asians, we have our own goals…it’s not about parents to please or marrying family fortunes. Also, in our relationship culture is a factor of our mate being our entertainment (or at least entertainment partner). You wanna feel like you can take this person anywhere, enjoy the world with him/her, and that you’re in it not just because you love your mate, but you also LIKE your mate.
-Ultimately, it’s not a race. Fools riush in. George Michael (the gay one) said it well, if you’re gonna do it, do it right.
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Nice…I agree…perhaps co-sign even
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
“Americans are their own persons. Unlike Africans and Asians, we have our own goals…it’s not about parents to please or marrying family fortunes” ???? BIG stereotype..at least for us Africans, the men from my part of the world marry when they can provide a roof over the heads of their sig. other (whether she is a GED or PhD holder). Its only here that you see a man marrying right out of college, the people that do that back home have that money in the family but most men (and nowadays women) get a good financial standing before settling down (how else do you think we pay for those sometimes ridiculously expensive 2 plus day weddings), our banks don’t do personal loans based on a “trust” system my friend.
…credit is only extended to the financially stable/ or someone with substantial collateral. All that to say, we have life goals, objectives etc it is very common and encouraged that a woman ought to have her 1st degree prior to marriage or gets that degree once she gets into her marital home…we don’t just marry into wealth or to please our parents (or the arranged marriage bit, even with that you need to have achieved some of those goals).
i actually agree with all these reasons as why successful men aren’t willing to settle down. i can really relate to number one. training now to be a biochemist with hopes of adding a j.d. but still want to open up a sports bar. lol
“the potential bad from the negatives (losing independence. potentially losing income and custody of their children if it ends, etc) vastly outweighs any good from any potential positive.”
-this makes the most sense to me. if a man is successful and he gets married and then things don’t work out (for whatever reason) its the man that gets railroaded in the court system. for any woman you will say well i have my own and i don’t want his is a lie. most women are vindictive and will try to hit a man where it hurts. income. alimony, child support and taking a man from his children.
it’s a person’s prerogative on whether they choose to get married or not. if they don’t want to then that’s their choice. i don’t see why people (mostly women) want to chastise men for making this choice. are you mad because you didn’t get chose? somebody help me out here.
@Tunde, Are you not currently in a relationship? If so, is your SO mad that she didn’t get chosen yet? Stop talking about the court systems taking all of your money. The man and woman lose in a divorce, nobody wins. I have been divorced, I know. I am still a proponent of marriage, though. If I had it to do again, I would still do it. I learned alot about myself and marriage, and I think I could do better the next time around, if the chance arises.
@Tunde,
I got hit up in divorce actually…so don’t assumptions like that aren’t always true…
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
But how often is that the case, really?
As long as these men do not have to provide for women, but get all the perks emotional security, intimacy, sex, companionship, children they don’t have to see each day, they will continue in that vein.
You can’t convert a bachelor into a husband.
@DG Thank you. I think we as a whole need to reevaluate things. I am all about leaving a legacy for my kids. Living in NYC that isn’t easy with property being so expensive. So if the fam want to invest, invest in their future grandkids. assuming i am not sterile lol
With all the women walking around in this world, and the ratios in men’s favor (especially in DC!), a successful black man probably doesn’t feel a rush to put a ring on it until he’s good and ready and has gotten all the tomfoolery out of his system. Every night time I’m out in DC reminds me of the truth in this as multitudes of women flock to dudes in 10:2 ratios, praying that they will get that first round draft pick. Tragic.
@Anike Love, this is so real
I still say husbands are easy to get. I have never been in love so when dudes start talking marriage your girl just…backs aways slowly
Now selling this house I own in Jersey is another issue entirely
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
Husbands are easy to get? Where are you? Because I’m, at the moment, working on just having an exclusive boyfriend. 0_o
@MoreAndAgain, I was gonna ask the same question. I live in the DC area so that could be part of the problem. But I know scores of beautiful, good hearted women who can barely score three dates with the same guy much less a husband. Guys in this area are not trying to commit to much more than a random hook up.
@klysha,
I’m starting to wonder if too many DC dudes have moved to NYC, because I’m having the same problem.lol. Too many men try to hit me with the “I don’t have time to make time for you,” but they want to sleep with me. It’s to the point where I’m almost ready to start looking for dudes with no ambition. . . if only they didn’t bore me. :-\
When do we get to a point where men (specifically Black men) realize that having a significant other can help you acheive some of those goals you set out for yourself? (Especially if you have the right partner). Aren’t two heads, supposedly, better than one?
@MoreAndAgain,
But if black men – even a majority which is not the case – do not want to be married that does not make them lesser men. It just means they are men in a modern world….and maybe enjoying it!
What this conversation should say at the least is that it is hard to sustain ones life let alone someone else in today’s social structure. In a very dynamic world marriage is very static….and it does not look fun. Perception if everything. Listen to your friends ages 25 -45 who are married. Mine are not happy. Talk to kids under 18 and they are not feeling it after watching their parents fail. Regardless of what hopeful spin we we put on it the divorce numbers are down right scary to a man who does not see divorce as an option….regardless of what happens in the union. Look at what is on television and in books. The world we live in, with it’s constant stimuli and reminders of how much better it is on the other side do not help men or women in marriage. It creates unreal expectation and I must say much more so women. We change jobs thus giving us access to more people. We blog and facebook and everything else. Satisfaction is not easy. People always talk about the “good ol days” but marriage was easier to sustain 50 years ago when we worked one job and lived in one town with the same small group of friends. If the model is not updated then we have to find a way to make it truly valuable and viable in a world where it is really not needed anymore.
@Dave,
I feel you on the modern world we live in and how the structure may not be conducive to marriage the way as we know it. But I do happen to know some very happily married people who are young and living in this modern world. All will say it takes a lot of work but they will all also say that it’s totally worth it and their lives are enhanced as a result of having that special someone in their life. I noticed that the ones with happy marriages tend to have a strong foundation and really seem to understand what loving another person means. The one’s I know who are unhappy tend to have a lot of other issues…selfishness being #1. I think with a good understanding of what love means and a willingness to be selfless with the right person marriage can work even in these modern times.
@MoreAndAgain,
I’m in the military so I’m based in Jersey but I travel all over. This might be a biased view as the military is very family based
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom, that explains a lot…from my view the military is a totally different world
@klysha, It is a lifestyle LOL
It’s “awry.” Damn.
Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
And to channel the inner social theorist “marriage is an anachronistic tool of the patriarchy developed to control female fertility.”
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Actually in some Asian countries, it’s the bride to be who pays dowry, in most African countries, it’s the other way around the groom pays dowry to the brides family.
very real indeed.
So basically, the reason why a lot of dudes on this site don’t put a ring on it is because they’re scared to try something they might fail at.
So what happens if you get someone pregnant that you don’t really like or care about? You’re STILL going to get taken to the cleaners.
Or what happens if you catch a disease as you’re moving through women?
Or even if you really, REALLY like some chick, but she moves on because she wanted a husband and family?
Lots of you seem to be really concerned about what others do instead of living your own experiences.
@Dave,
I never said men who chose not to get married were some how “lesser men” for their choice. What I was saying is that it would be great, IMO (clearly), if Black men stopped seeing marriage as “having to sustain someone else’s life” (as you put it, in so many words.) If you have the right partner marriage is a great way to build wealth (2 incomes, 1/2 the expenses, 1/2 the liabilities) and reach the goals that we all set out for ourselves.
If my life works out the way I plan (pfft! *keeps fingers crossed*) my future husband won’t have to “sustain two people’s lives” because when we enter into the marriage, I’ll be completely capable of sustaining myself (and so will he), having my own career and all (thank YOU woman’s lib.) The extra money from our dual income household can go to things like building a stock portfolio, investing in real estate, starting a business, travel, or maybe one of us wants to go back to school. -Or, all of the above, depending on how much we can bank!-
My point is when you get two people together who share a common goal (which is what I think a huge part of marriage should be about), the possibilities should get better, not worse. *Enter The Obamas, The Knowles-Carters, The Pickett-Smith’s, etc.*
I’m looking for a dude who will really let me be Bonnie to his Clyde, rather than his liability/ball-and-chain/extra-mouth-to-feed. If a man is not looking for a partner at all, that’s all fine and dandy. But, he should keep in mind that the married successful men outnumber the single ones, and I highly doubt that’s a coincidence.
PS:
I can’t base my decisions off of failed marriages. Especially, when I look at certain couples and it’s clear as day that they should have never been married in the first place. Like everything else, marriage is what you make it, and people fuck it up. -The fact that some people get married when one of the two doesn’t have an occupation is beyond me. #shrug-
@MoreAndAgain,
And sister when I say sustain two people I am not talking about the financial gains. Two is better than one in that respect. I am talking about the other things that make people feel valued and excited. Love is beautiful and marriage CAN be a beautiful thing as well. However in marriage love and commitment and affection are not enough for many men and women to feel satisfied and that is why I feel a lot of marriages fail. Go to NPR and listen to the podcast on happiness. Married people are not happy. First year sure. Second year maybe. When the kids come, no. That happiness does not come back until after the kids have left. The problem with that is that most marriages will not last 20 years to reach that point.
The couples you names….cute….wonderful to see black love like that. It is a great image. But we dont know them and we do not know what motivates their unions. We do not know what unconventional practices sustain them (Will and Jada). We can assume love and respect but that is just an assumption if you do not know the couples personally . I dont care how much love radiates from the screen or pictures.
Most people want more out of marriage that marriage can give and perhaps that is why the divorce rate is so high. Most people, men and women, are looking for marriage to validate them in one way or another and when it does not we have problems. Maybe not you but for many that is the case. It is hard finding two people who are going to real about the expectations and the realities of a hard to sustain institution. A lot of hope is needed and that only will get us so far.
@MoreAndAgain,
One more thing you are a beautiful woman, sister! Damn.
@Dave,
Ok, well first and foremost, thank you for the compliment. *Blush*
*Ahem* Now, where was I?lol.
Ok, my bad. When you mentioned that Black men are cautious of having to sustain two lives, I assumed you meant monetarily (probably because I was talking monetarily). Now, that I have clarification, I see where you’re coming from. But, the thing is, no one is happy (generally speaking, of course).
Married people aren’t happy, single people aren’t happy. I remember reading a report on CNN.com about a study that said that women are more unhappy now than they were some-odd years ago. I think many of us haven’t figured out what makes us happy, and that is why many marriages fail.
Many women, and men, go through life the way society told them they were supposed to, almost on autopilot (e.g.: I can’t even count how many people I know who went to college without a second thought, because not going to college was not an option. I’m included in that.) Nowhere on the “Things Society Thinks You Should Achieve By 30″ list is there a bullet for “know what makes you happy” because the belief is that once you achieve everything on the list, you will be happy. I think, once people start to realize that isn’t necessarily the case, they start the swan dive. This is where we run into the “miserable attorney”, our favorite teacher Ms. Tingle, the “desperate housewife”, and the middle aged husband/father who flips out and buys a Maserati. It’s to the point that having a “midlife crisis” is a cliché.
I also think too many people go into relationships (marriage) expecting the other person to make them happy (which touches on what you were saying). Black men are not the only ones who are concerned about this. It’d be a nightmare for me to be married to a man who withdrew from me because I didn’t live up to all of his sexual fantasies. I don’t know what message all of these women who stop having sex once they’ve been married have been getting, but I feel like I’ve been bombarded with the “you better be a hoe for your husband” message ever since I was allowed to participate in grown folk conversation.lol. So, now, I have to not only make sure my sexual needs are met, but yours are too? Yeah. . . this is SO not just a concern Black men have.
It would be ideal if everyone who got married at least went into it knowing that the wedding only equals “happily ever after” in Disney movies. -Because, you gotta end the story somewhere, or else how will you ever bank off of the sequal?- But, that’s probably asking a lot.
As far as the celebrity couples I mentioned, I was referencing them not because I know what’s going on in their relationship, but because they are great examples of partnerships working when it comes to business endeavors. Barack would not be President if it weren’t for Michelle. Will Smith was already building his celebrity, but he and Jada together have created a great brand, and Jay-Z and Beyonce have more side hustles/endorsements than any other hip-hop couple I can think of. That’s what I was referring to. What hardships they have are a mystery to me (well, except for the Obamas because they’ve spilled so much in their interviews I feel like I have flashbacks), but if their marriage didn’t work on some fundamental level, I find it hard to believe they’d be as tangibly successful as they are.
Time wasted on bitterness and why I havent’ gotten hitched could be used building wealth, institutions, helping people in foster care, old folks homes, the downtrodden and everything else. Focus on you and not a relationship is a sure fire way of obtaining a quality one..How are you going to ask someone to join you on a life long journey when you’re full of angst, bitterness and overdosing on “why I ain’t got a man” who in the hell would want to go into a relationship with any creature who is perpetually pissed…just because life isnt’ swinging their way…heres a clue “do you before you ask someone else to do you”
I agree with @tiffany.
Once I understood what marriage really entailed I don’t ever think I actually wanted to be married after that.
I’m open to a happy, healthy long-term partnership with the man that is right for me, but marriage… meh!
In my early 30′s I read this book >> Marriage Shock: The Transformation of Women into Wives.
Turning the last page I realized I don’t want to turn the woman I love being into a “wife”. To me that is like dying for naught.
And really most married women, if they are honest, are NOT wives. They are chattel property in the eyes of the men they are married to. Remember that the slave master even listed his wife as property.
Also, don’t view marriage from just an American lense. Look at how married women are treated around the world.
I have found most men feel a wife is their “birth right” and that in marriage women are present to serve their needs.
In turn they offer you shelter, clothes, food based on your beauty, body, and baby making abilities.
If you are a 10 then a man will upgrade you and try to act like he cares about your human rights and emotional needs.
If you are a 2 then heaven help you. You will be mistreated and neglected on every level. And that same man will feel entitled to treat you this way.
Then there are the studies that have historically stated marriage benefits men and does nothing for women.
And while there are pro-marriage studies out there, most say married women are less likely. As women that is all we get is less-likely. No thanks.
So what I’ve always asked the men I meet “Other than the perceived financial advantages, what is my incentive in becoming a married woman? What do I really get out of it?”
Sad to say none I’ve met can explain to me how marriage would be good for me.
@divalive,
I love your progressive thinking!!!!!! I am a man who agrees with you 100%.
@divalive,
It’s better that you know for yourself that marriage isn’t what you want, rather than get married because that’s what society is telling you to do. Kudos!
I, personally, want children and refuse to bring them into the world without a stable two parent household established (I’ve managed to avoid contributing to all the negative statistics so far, I’m going to continue). So, that is one of the main things I would get out of marriage. I think many women who want to have children feel the same way.
I have to disagree with the statement that men think having a wife is their birth right, just on the strength that we’re commenting on a blog post asking men why they won’t “put a ring on it.” (Irony?)
“And really most married women, if they are honest, are NOT wives. They are chattel property in the eyes of the men they are married to. Remember that the slave master even listed his wife as property.”
That’s a very presumptuous indictment to be making, having not even asked the majority of married men how they feel or think about their wives (or asked those wives how they feel about their role, and their husbands). I mean, I could be wrong, and you could work for a market research firm, in which case you would have something to back this up other than personal experience(?).
I also have to ask what the purpose of looking at married women around the world is? Are we now to compare ourselves to cultures that have completely different values and social norms? If I were from Iran I could have been sold and married before 18 with a kid on the way. That’s clearly not acceptable in the US. So, why the comparisons?
lol @ “ring-swatting”, I’m gonna steal that!
I dunno, I tend to think it’s probably a variety of reasons. I think it’s probably, more than anything, about finding the right person. If the right person shows up, all bets are off and it’s all about making it happen. I think the older you get, the less inclined you are to let the old stuff that encumbered you stop you from making it happen. But the people get more discerning and the quality choices (Who are available) don’t seem to manifest as quickly. So it’s like, longer cycles to get what you want. So it’s a tradeoff.
@Dante Alexander…
regarding ur thought that maybe bad arse strippers are attracted to u…hmmm maybe that is true but in analyzing how to change that maybe what u need to keep in mind is that like attracts like… not saying ur a stripper or anything but that maybe what ur portraying to the world suggests that u wouldnt have a problem with that kinda lifestyle …
OR
maybe its a “shituation” where we forget that even strippers need love too and as such, are searching for it… the point is if we put the physical aspect aside for a minute and focus on simple human need we realize we are all searching for the same thing success and love and comfort…. maybe the roads we take to achieve those things are different but it is what it is…
Dante do something for me ok….think about the physical aspects of the woman that attracts u….and keep it in mind when u review the physical descriptions of those “Atlanta Strippers” see any similarities…
maybe we all need to review our own wants and attractions before we try to figure out the why’s of the opposite sex .
hope it helps us all in finding what we really want from this “mating game”
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What’s funny about this entire article is that I really could care less about why “successful brothas don’t want to put a ring on it.” Get married is easy…staying married is the hard part.