Chris Brown’s Hoes Ain’t Loyal, But Everybody Else Seems To Be » VSB

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Chris Brown’s Hoes Ain’t Loyal, But Everybody Else Seems To Be

Chris Brown (Chelsea Lauren/Getty Images)


Can I be real with you all for a second? Like, can I kick it?

Yes you can.


I effin’ love Chris Brown’s song “Loyal”. This song has managed to worm its way into Panama’s favorite songs of all time in the history of ever list along with songs by Donny Hathaway, Keith Sweat, and Led Zeppelin. In fact, of all the music I’ve ever heard there are two songs I wish I was responsible for: Psapp’s “Cosy In The Rocket” (aka the Grey’s Anatomy theme song) and “These Hoes Ain’t Loyal”.

But this song got me to thinking about exactly why Chris Brown stays winning. The boy hasn’t seen an altercation he didn’t want to be apart of. I’ve said it before (I’m too lazy to look up where), but if you’re out somewhere and you see a chair fly through a window, it doesn’t mean that Chris Brown threw it. But if Chris Brown is present, he also can’t be ruled out as a suspect. We all know he needs a better team around him of pretty much everybody who has a job. I’d never take a job as his PR agent or publicist. I’d want no parts of that (almost literal) ticking time bomb.

And yet, musically, my man continues to drop hit after hit after hit. Which, yes Virginia, is a pun. I should let that go. But he’s got a good ear for music that will continue to resonate with his audience and, in that realm, he manages to remain both relevant and relatively embraced. Sure we crack jokes, but Breezy hasn’t been blackballed or blacklisted. He’s still around. He was in Think Like A Man. He’s been in movies when he’s not in somebody’s jail or on somebody’s road picking up trash. And to some degree, after what he has done and been through, I find it partially amazing. I know we love a good redemption story, but damn.

(Sidenote: Y’all remember the Mimi-Niko secks tape? That fire has completely died out huh? I’m watching LHH:ATL while Niko was plotting some sort of pr0n takeover. Seems like they capitalized as much as they could off of it. Also, LHH has reached epic levels of non-sense these past two episodes.)

But this all goes back to the R. Kelly mode of making it. And something that I think only male artists can truly recover from: as long as you make music people love, you can get away with anything. I realize this isn’t anything new, but when I find myself getting so hype and listening to a song whose actual title includes the word “hoes” and “loyal” I think to myself…

…what a a wonderful world.

But I wonder…could a woman artist really recover from a public shaming? Have there been any female artists (can I say female in this context without it being sexist? Real question) who have gone through a shaming and have managed to make it back to stardom? I know we tend to let men get away with a lot more than women. And yes that’s a loaded statement; but I also don’t think its untrue.

Funny enough, I can’t think of a single women artist who has truly lost her damn mind…wait….

…Lauryn Hill. But even there she reverted unto herself and had a nervous breakdown…then ridiculed the Pope and the Catholic church, but who hasn’t done that?

I guess without examples I’m just throwing darts in the dark, but I do wonder about this stuff from time to time. Aaliyah managed to make it past her marriage to R. Kelly at age 15 but I’d swear that her family made that entire episode pretty much disappear. She bounced back but that’s because we just never talked about it AND she was around before social media. I’m not sure if that stuff happened today, she’d be able to recover. Meanwhile, I’m in my house crip-walkin’ to Chris Brown who can do no wrong in my eyes. Even his euro-trash song “Forever” was damn near perfect. Also, in a bit of “holy f*ck I’m old”…do you all realize that Chris Brown first hit the scene in 2005?

That’s right. Chris Brown has been in our lives for nearly 10 years at this point.

Either way, I want you all to know that I love “Loyal” because I need to be able to move on. This is my admission. It’s not even a guilty pleasure because I feel no guilt. I want you to know so that you can be happy as I am. It’s harmonically perfect. It’s topically wonderous.

It’s ratchet and the gentleman at the same time. And it seems like Chris Brown is the only one making music good enough to get you to look past his past. Along with his f*cksh*t mentor, R. Kelly who has started to fade into obscurity.

Sharing is caring.

These hoes ain’t loyal…but Panama is for the children.

See? Loyal.

So what do you think? How has Chris Brown managed to stay winning? Is it just the music??

What happen? How it happen?


Panama Jackson

Panama Jackson is pretty fly (and gorgeous) for a light guy. He used to ship his frito to Tito in the District, but shipping prices increased so he moved there to save money. He refuses to eat cocaine chicken. When he's not saving humanity with his words or making music with his mouth, you can find him at your mama's mama's house drinking her fine liquors. Most importantly, he believes the children are our future. You can hit him on his hitter at

  • Mr. SD

    Am I wrong for loving me some Karrueche? #shesoskinnysexy

    • LadyIbaka

      no sir! me love her long time too. what’s wrong is knowing the correct spelling of her train wreck name.

      • Nah her name is far from a train wreck. It’s a traditional Vietnamese one. I like to kid but I respect her name and its roots :-)

        • LadyIbaka

          girl, the first time I read her name, that’s what I visualized train wreck. I’m happy it has roots and meaning. But to be honest, that’s the image permanently etched in my mind.

          • I’m sure many people would glance at Nigerian names and assume those are train wrecks but they aren’t.

            • LadyIbaka

              oh absolutely. that’s just life. I have a whatthephakkisyonamebe2. I understand her plight, as well as my that of my African brethren.

    • First of all, we’ve previously established that her name is Kumquat.

      Second, how can you like someone who doesn’t love herself? Chris left her for Rihanna, broke up with Rihanna, went to jail, came out of jail fat, and still don’t even claim her with half the fervor that he claimed Rihanna.

      • Msdebbs

        I though her name was Ketchup?

        • Mr. SD

          Yall aint right

          • Rachmo

            No chill to be found.

        • LadyIbaka

          oh, so she changed it from Karate?

        • It honestly might be Kalamazoo. I get the pronunciation wrong sometimes.

          • LadyIbaka

            wait a minute….this chick’s name ain’t loyal.

            • Lynette


          • Msdebbs

            No I think it’s Kaleidoscope

          • PhlyyPhree

            I just call her Karaoke. I feel like that’s close enough

        • miss t-lee


        • KeepIt1000

          No it’s Konnichi-wa.

      • LadyIbaka

        My question is, what were they feeding him in the pen?!? Hippopotamus general tso?

        • Msdebbs

          Ikr….I’ve never seen a dude come back for Jail fatter then when he went in.

      • cryssi

        When I first saw Kumquat, I honestly thought it said Kumtwat…which kinda makes sense. She seems like a sweet senseless girl though.

    • Val

      Yeah, Kacaroache is kind of a guilty pleasure crush.

      • Sahel


    • Michelle

      Pretty woman. Feel pity for her,in regards to having to deal with Chris’ fans. Now if I was in her shoes, I would play up that “most hated” reputation.

    • kidvideo

      She got this tat on the back of her thigh that’s hella sexy.

      • Andrea

        Wow…people find that zipper thing sexy.

    • panamajackson

      She’s adorbs. but she is SO tiny. i saw her at Broccoli City Festival here in DC in april. that is one diminutive person.

  • Msdebbs

    Damn its been 10 years already?? I think these catchy songs keep him on top but I’m gonna need these dudes that have a wife but keep side chicks on deck to have several _/ _/ _/ and stop sing this song. It aint for you bruh!

    • How do men with wives even have enough time to play house and keep other women on the side? Isn’t marriage a full time job tacked onto their normal full time jobs???? Why even be married if you aren’t happy with your wife??

      • LadyIbaka

        keyword:PLAY! They are just dipping not living in the wetness of green pastures.

      • Msdebbs

        Some men don’t want their wives to do the nasty things side chicks do or their wives refuse to do those things. Others are bored and was a change of scenery. Some men have crappy wives too. There’s a zillion reasons why folks cheat. I just don’t believe in staying an a relationship with some one I’m not happy with. No bueno

        • That’s silly. Why wouldn’t you want your wife to do nasty things for you if she was willing? Like, isn’t that the ULTIMATE come up? A wife that keeps home, carries herself well AND licks your taint?????

          • Msdebbs

            I read it on another blog. Some dudes hold their wives at such a high standard they cant imagine her doing “slu**y things.

            • Why are these kinds of men even in relationships to begin with?

              • Msdebbs

                Some women actually love em.

            • nillalatte

              I have only ever known one dude like you’re describing and he was Black. This made me wonder about him and his wife, briefly. It actually did baffle me a bit.

            • Its a convenient cop out, only two people in that bed room knows whata happening, miss that conveniently prude ish

              • ED

                When I was in college one dude said he wouldn’t let his (future) wife give him head because it’s degrading. Even the girls laughed at him.

                • It’s ninjas like him that are responsible for the continued existence of no head giving women. They’re hoping to marry someone like him. *smh* Can someone throw dude into a woodchipper? Kthxbye

                  • miss t-lee


          • Val

            It’s the Madonna-Whore Complex.

            • kidvideo

              I have/would date/wife the chick that was the “HS/college freak” if we have shared interest.

          • kidvideo

            I wanna wife up ur comment and tell it to lay in bed wit high heels on.

            • Andrea

              why is that so funny to me?

              • kidvideo

                Maybe u can relate, Ms Red Bottom…and im not talking bout shoes;-)

          • There are a good percentage of dudes who think if she’ll lick your taint, she won’t bother to keep up house and home or will take advantage of them emotionally after they open up their hearts. Not my personal thing, but it definitely exists.

            • towninc

              so true. They also can’t imagine them as the mother of their future children.

        • That first sentence amazes me. Like how do these men exist in 2014? Just open up to your wife dammit. And you won’t believe how many times when my marriage was having problems I was told to cheat. Keeping it real, I was told to cheat more than I was told to leave, even though I had the sense to pull the plug. It shows what people think of men.

  • PhlyyPhree

    So does Vanessa Williams not count?
    Or do we realize that the human body is beautiful and not to be shamed and blah blah blah.
    But they took her crown for that whole Playboy thing sooo…. eh

    As far as Breezy goes, I think its a little to do with the fact that as much as NO ONE wants to admit it, his sin isn’t really a sin to us. It’s more a slight transgression. His biggest downfall thus far has been the Rih thing and everything he’s done after that has been a domino effect. Again, NO ONE wants to admit it, but we’ve all had that explosive relationship. It might not have reached the physical levels that Chris and RihRih did or it might not have made it to the public eye as they did, however we all have that one who (almost) took us there.
    When you look at it that way, it still seems to almost be overkill to still be bringing it up* At this point, it’s not about anyone being loyal, it’s about him simply continuing to make bad choices. He should release a gospel album of some sort and I bet we’ll never have to have this conversation again.

    Oh and out of everyone on his team, his songwriter is the one hire who should be making THEE absolute most money cause like you said, the boy can’t NOT make a hit at this point.

    *I in no way, shape, form or fashion mean to belittle or devalue anyone who’s ever been in an abusive relationship or domestic violence situation. Just sharing my opinion in a general sense here, not trying to trigger anyone’s specifics.

    • DG

      So does Vanessa Williams not count?

      Eh, I think VW’s situation was a bit different in that losing her crown gained her both sympathy and fame. Granted, she was the 1st black Ms. America, but the controversy surrounding her losing her crown probably made her more popular. Her career as actress/singer hadn’t really started yet, so the additional attention may have actually given her career a boost. Just my 0.02.

      • Val

        Also this was before social media.

    • MysteryMeat

      Ive said many times over we werent supposed to find out about that fight between Breezy and Rih but we did. When it happened it seemed like some ole hood ish. SO CRAZY that most of us can relate or remember a time where we have seen a couple F each other up over an argument. Not saying its right cause Chris wore her face out but the first thing that came to my mind after seeing Rih’s mangled mug was DAAAANNNG i wonder what his face look like.

      Then i got pissed when his face wasnt equally as messed up as her’s. Theres a deep discussion somewhere in this comment. Please go easy

    • First, Chris Brown writes his own stuff, and has written for others. Whatever is going wrong music-wise is on him.

      Two, you’re definitely right about Vanessa Williams. I remember how those pictures were such a huge deal, but not only did she move past it, she’s become a very family friendly entertainment icon.

      Three, I think something like a third of relationships have experienced domestic violence. The sad thing is that either we’ve been involved in one, or have known someone close to us that has been involved. That will definitely desensitize people to it, especially if they have it in their heads that it was somehow OK.

      • PhlyyPhree

        Does he write his own stuff? I never read the album credits anymore so I always assume he has a team writing for him. Kinda like Beyonce, she’ll ad an “oooh yea” to the end of a hook and get writing cred.

        As far as domestic violence in relationships, I think a lot of it goes back to the fact that EVERYTHING is so public these days. That doesn’t have any bearing whatsoever on what’s right or wrong, but it does influence reaction to it. How many stories did you hear of in the old days where people knew that Mr. Jones was going upside Mrs. Jones head at night but “thats not my business” (No Kermit). It’s never somehow ok, or ok at all, but once it becomes public, you have the analysts who want to dissect every side of a situation to determine who deserved to be the victim and if the victim caused it in any way, the sympathizers who want to coddle the victim AND the abuser… it becomes an unnecessary circus that still doesn’t solve the situation.

      • KeepIt1000

        That’s very debatable. Considering that fact he never respect art R&B and its value. That’s why I hate today’s R&B. More into R&B from 70s, 80s, and 90s. His music is only for thirsty birds that mistake looks for talent.

    • “but we’ve all had that explosive relationship.”

      #NoUnicorn, but #NotALLOfUs. It’s hard to have an explosive relationship when your method of dealing with anger is withdrawal and implosion.

      • ED

        Ahhhhmmmeeeennn ( I was raised catholic)

      • PhlyyPhree

        True. It was just a general statement. But even if your preferred method of dealing is a shutdown, you’ve still been in a relationship that pushed you to a point where you had to ponder if the jail time was worth it. Or is that just me that keeps a “just in case” bail money account?

        • Epsilonicus

          That is just you lol

          • PhlyyPhree

            Let me dream a little dream then. Maybe I should transfer that money into a “get a therapist and figure out why you keep repeating this bull” account. In the words of PJ, me no know. Lol

            • Epsilonicus

              Were you ever Catholic or attended a Catholic school?

              • PhlyyPhree

                For one year of high school I attended Catholic School. Worst year ever socially, 2nd best year academically, but other than that, nope.

                • Epsilonicus

                  Ahhhh. Now it all makes sense.

                  • PhlyyPhree

                    Lol. What???
                    Care to explain that one?

                    • Epsilonicus

                      Catholic schools scars women lol

  • Women who are publicly shamed will forever bare the scarlet letter. I think Left Eye got a pass after she burned down her ex’s house. She just did her little community service and was back in the studio faking it with T-Boz and Rozanda for CrazyShexyCool. No one ever did throw that back in her face after she did it.

    I miss Lisa :-( She was great. She was my spirit animal.

    • Rachmo

      That is a great point! We really did let Lisa skip off into the sunset.

  • Chris Brown and Rihanna kind of symbolize the millennial generation: tatted up, romantically confused, color loving and a never ending sense of grandiosity.

    • What’s Gen X’s (and prior generations) issue with those of us conceived a few years after they were? Did y’all collectively have the worst decade of your 20’s/30’s? Why are y’all so vexed? Jesus.

      • Technically, I’m a millennial.

        It is what it is, though I don’t have any tattoos.

        As for Gen-X, well, I think there’s an argument for it being the dumbest generation ever:

        • Val

          I vote for baby-boomers as the dumbest generation. Just look at how they’ve screwed up everything. And if not the dumbest then certainly the most incompetent.

          • They royally screwed up as parents- most of the children they raised became Generation X, the allegedly dysfunctional generation. As the old saying goes, “The apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree”.

            • Val

              You’re right, PA. And it’s also them who have screwed up the government too.

              • But if you tell them that, they’ll deflect faster than a member of BWE, LMAO!!

          • ED

            I agree 100%

          • afronica

            I celebrate every time a boomer dies. And I’m only sorta joking.

            • Val


        • Andrea

          I might be a dumb Gen-X person. So can someone help me out. But isn’t that whole article about millennials being dumb?

          The Dumbest Generation: How The Digital Age Stupefies Young Americans and Jeopardizes Our Future (or Don’t Trust Anyone UNDER 30)

          • The article is a criticism of the book that Gen-Xers are so dumb that they don’t even know it. In a sense they are a product of the babyboomers, who were generally so concerned with rebelling and overthrowing tradition and the status quo, they forgot to raise their kids, so TV ended up raising them instead. Thus why Gen-X is also referred to as the MTV generation.

            • Andrea

              Well apparently I do suck at reading comprehension. Do they offer any hope, or suggestions for how we can become brighter?

              • Lol, no, he’s too cynical for that. After all the author is a member of Gen-X.

                It goes back to the saying attributed to Plato that “The Unexamined Life isn’t worth living”: people raised on TV (the internet is no where as bad as TV, although it’s more addictive), inherited their ideas of how the world is through directors and television “programmers”…in other words, they live in a matrix. The only way to get out of course is to take the red pill (self-knowledge), but in reality, there’s no Morpheus to do the work for you, only marketeers and advertisers doing this:


          • Jacqueline

            Agreed. Stupefies is the perfect word. In my opinion it explains Rihanna’s whole career and a few others… I cannot recall their names.

            Must be my advanced Gen X mind..

        • ED

          I blame the baby boomers who raised the Gen Xers

          • Oh yeh it’s definitely their fault. But, being irresponsible, selfish and short-sighted isn’t the same as being dumb lol.

        • Medium Meech

          Wait, what generation didn’t suck? I get that kids have progressively gotten dumber and lazier (and importantly more entitled) it’s been that way since the dawn of man time, surprised we’re holding on a race, but hasn’t every successive generation gotten more educated, worked harder to get into school and dedicated a larger percentage of their lives to corporate America? I personally think the greatest generation was entitled because they expected to be able to earn a enough to support a 3 person family effectively working a 35 hour work week with only one spouse in the work force and have their retirement paid for all without a college degree. Lazy moochers, college was pretty much free back then compared to now and they were letting anybody in and they just didn’t go.

          • You know what’s crazy? The lack of qualifications needed to secure jobs back in the 80’s/90’s. I used to work for a family a few years back. The father never attended college but he got into a trade and was able to work his way up through the ranks. I know people with Master’s degrees who are looking for work within their field and are dealing with being too qualified for just about everything.

      • Obsidian Files

        @Ms. Ruby:
        GenXer here, ahem. I’m most happy to answer your questions!

        Generation X was born at a time of great national crisis and turmoil; the latter 60s and the decade of the 70s was a very confusing, anxious and angry time in American life. Major social movements, like the Civil Rights, Womens’ and very nascent Gay Rights movements, were all roiling, and that’s not even including the Anti-Vietnam War movement. The S*xual Revolution was also a huge part of the mix as well, and GenXers were born in the midst of all of this “Summer of Love”. Then there was Watergate, the failure and disgrace of the Nixon White House, to be followed by the seeming ineptitude of Presidents Ford and Carter – the latter presiding over the Three Mile Island meltdown and the Iran Hostage Crisis (checkout the excellent film “Argo” starring and directed by GenXer Ben Affleck for more on this point). By this time, not only would King and Bobby Kennedy would be dead, but so too would his elder brother JFK, Huey Newton and Mark Clark, Malcolm X; along with cultural icons like Jim Morrison, Janice Joplin and the legendary Jimi Hendrix. The Beatles had broken up and James Brown and Louis Armstrong were derided as Uncle Toms.

        For me, the cultural touchstone that best sums up GenXers is the 1976 film “Kramer vs. Kramer” (a title that R&B icon Usher would use for one of his own ablums, “Raymond vs. Raymond” – himself being a GenXer), starring Dustin Hoffman, barely a decade after his big debut in The Graduate (some would say that the ending scene in the film is a kind of foreshadowing of what would happen in KVK). Kramer vs. Kramer dealt with the realities of the fragility of American life at this time, distilled into the family of a NYC Ad Man and his failing marriage, then divorce. Unlike the more hopeful “The Courtship of Eddie’s Father” starring Bill Bixby (you might remember him from “The Incredible Hulk” tv series, though it came a bit before your time) or “My Three Sons” with Fred MacMurray, Kramer vs. Kramer showed the gut-wrenching, raww and ugly side of No Fault Divorce, as Hoffman struggled to hold it together as a newly single dad. GenXers can relate powerfully, deeply, to all of this. By the time you were born, the Divorce Tsunami had begun to recede in earnest, and, to use the Gipper’s famed campaign slogan, “It was morning again in America”. The economy had begun to improve, a seachange over where it was during the Arab Oil Embargo days of the early 70s, “Stagflation” and the like. GenXers were the “Good Times” generation; your generation was the “Cosby Show” and “A Different World” generation.

        Due to the fracture and failure on just about every level in the lives of GenXers – parental, social, governmental, religious, you name it – GenXers developed a very cynical way of looking at the world, and was expressed through the art they produced -this was the generation that spawned Nirvana, with its frontman Curt Kobain blowing his brains out; this was the generation that spawned both Tupac and Biggie, both of whom discussed in errie detail their last days on this planet. Indeed, Grunge and Hip Hop – particularly the latter’s Gangsta Rap variant – was powerful expressions of the out and out nihlism that GenXers saw and perceived around them.

        Today, GenXers, as a generation, are the most formally educated – and also the most over-qualified, the most in debt when you include the costs of mortages, caring for sick/elderly parents and kids, and mounting healthcare costs for themselves. Indeed, it is not at all unusual to find GenXers, noww solidly middlge aged, to still be in hock to Sallie Mae, sometimes to the tune of six figures. Politically, they aren’t a factor in the mix – campaigns, Obama’s most especially, specifically targeted the more hopeful Millennials to put him over the top. In fact, political parties, both the Left and the Right, don’t even see GenXers – they aim all of their efforts towards Baby Boomers and Millennials – the two most powerful demographics in American life currently. The AARP and the “Youth Vote” have proven to make or break not just individual candidates but entire parties, and neither is willing to go against the grain of what they want. This leaves GenXers pretty much out in the cold.


        So, while you might find the more dour outlook on the part of GenXers to be “vexxing”, upon closer inspection there’s a there, there.

        It might not make it right, but it does make sense.


        • It’s ironic, but it’s because of the baby boomers that the most powerful interest group in the United States and probably the world doesn’t get any recognition, even more powerful than bankers in fact: pension fund managers aka the people who generally control and own majority shares in the vast majority of publicly traded corporations.

          You can attack corporations, you can attack big government, but don’t you dare attack pension managers. Like Lord Voldermort, they are the He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named” of our existence.

        • Val

          *wonders who was calling James “I’m Black and I’m Proud” Brown an Uncle Tom?

          • You’d be surprised- here’s a hint: They were the same ones that went to his funeral.

            • Very true. That story got whitewashed out of history.

          • Obsidian Files

            @Ms. Val:
            Both Brown and Armstrong were seen as “Old Time Negroes” for not being radical enough if at all, in the wake of the riots taking place all over the country. On top of this, Brown was seen shaking hands with Richard Nixon, and because of his pull himself up by his bootstraps life story, was seen much int he manner of Booker T. Washington, whereas many radical Blacks and intellectuals of the day (and in our time right now) were cut more from the cloth of WEB DuBois. All of this is well documented.


            • Ironically, it was the same generation that would use his songs and beats to create the foundation of hip-hop.

              • Obsidian Files

                @Negro Libre:
                Well, actually it was the Baby Boomer Blacks that were giving Brown and Armstrong a workout…but yea, it is an irony that GenXers would use Brown’s music as a base for Hip Hop…


          • Freebird

            and louis armstrong deserves more respect. tom or not.

            • Val

              I saw a doc that said it was the fact that he smiled a lot and that some saw that as cooning. But, I agree with you. Although by the time he died I think he was pretty well respected. He actually lived in a neighborhood adjacent to the one I grew up in. And he was well liked there from what I’ve heard.

          • I always found that Brown was yoked with that label.

            He’s from near where I’m from and if the term “ghetto superstar” were to ever be placed in a dictionary James Brown’s picture needs to be adjacent to the definition. (@disqus_9W6nyV3Tvf:disqus can back me up on this. ) For all of his good and bad parts dude held his community down and actually interacted with the public when he was alive. I remember when he died on Christmas morning of 2006 on of the newscasters in Augusta was in near tears talking about Brown.

            It’s just another case of how different sets of black folks view other sets of black folks.

            • James Brown spend a good chunk of the 60s and 70s in Queens (his old house is on a main street around here and is one of the rare tourist sites), and the people who lived there at the time said he held it down too. While I wouldn’t say James Brown was perfect, he tried to look out for where he laid his head.

              • He was handing out turkeys and toys way before New Jack City was even thought of.

              • Jacqueline

                Yes his public deeds should be respected. But what he did to Tammi Terrell and other women is inexcusable. Not to mention the wrongs committed against his band members especially those who actually helped him craft his music.

                Forgive me for speaking ill of the dead.

                • James Brown did some incredibly f*cked up sh*t and some incredibly giving things. I’m not trying to forget either. It just goes to show how human beings are.

                  • Jacqueline

                    I think we are on the same page. We are all the sum of our parts. He was clearly an insightful man. I was not around when he was making his strides, but I learned pretty early on that he was the man in many regards.

        • Obsidian Files

          Going baack to the topic, I find Panama’s comparison, derisively, of R. Kelly vs. Chris Browwn, to deeply misguided. Sure, Brown is the flavor of the month and has been able to retain his appeal despite (wink, wink: BECAUSE of) his bad boy ways, but he is no R. Kelly.

          For example, at the same point in his career, ie, roughly a decade in from going solo, Kelly had won three Grammys in the same year, to Browwn’s lone Grammy to date. In addition, Kelly had been responsible for the success of other acts, among them of course Aaliyah. To date, some 12 studio albums and a good ly bit of scandal himself, R. Kelly has sold more than 40M records in the USA alone, more than 100M worldwide. Chris Brown may rightly be called many things, and to be sure, R. Kelly’s in the twilight of his career at this point; but Breezy is no R. Kelly.






        • ghettoS

          This post is gold. You said it Obsidian. This in itself could be a blog post. Kudos.

        • I honestly just want y’all to be happy as a generation and stop doing all this finger pointing. Y’all will be wishing you’d said nicer things when you find yourselves needing your diapers changed and your wrinkly bottoms cleaned :-)

          • Kema

            By that time it will be you doing the finger pointing at the following generation. Circle of life and $hit.

        • Freebird

          gat dammit….well done o!

        • Agatha Guilluame

          Hey O,

          What is going on with you lately? New job? New location? New woman? You’ve been making a whole lot of sense lately (I peeped the very long thread with Joel, et al, last week, glad you finally see the light on that)…I just feel some type of way though…I’m used to disagreeing with you…

          • camilleblu


            • Obsidian Files

              @Ms. Camille, Ms. Agatha:
              I’m glad you brought up my recent exchange with Mr. Joel, because it seems that it has caused a bit of confusion amongst the ladies in the forum. It appears to be that my position is contradictory to what I’ve said previously in the past, and/or that it is basically the exact same thing many of you have said to him previously along mating lines. Is that correct?


              • camilleblu

                Yes, O. The ladies told Mr. Joel the same things a few months ago that you told him a few days ago. But when we said it, you weren’t trying to hear us. And I’m making this point separate of if Mr. Joel actually asked anyone for advice.

                • Obsidian Files

                  @Ms. Camille:
                  Sorry for the late response, been out and about yesterday.

                  Alright – let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re right: you and other ladies have said the exact same thing to Mr. Joel that I recently said to him. What’s the difference, and why was my response to all of you the way it was?

                  Well, the answer, and I know this may not be PC to say, is simple:

                  Because it’s coming from me, and not all of you.

                  Let me explain.

                  We live in an age where one of our highest ideals is one of Equality. It is so pervasive and so permeates every nook and corner of our society, that we often do not know that it is there. When it comes to questions of mating, Americans are fervent i their belief of Equality too – the recent Gay Marriage Debate is but one of a number of examples of just that. Other examples, are the Dark Girls/Make Lupita Beautiful Campaigns(TM), Fat Acceptance (For Women Only), and so forth. All of these are in fact, manifestations of Equality Uber Alles.

                  Why am I saying that?

                  Because, there is the notion that Women and Men suffer the same fates and undergo the same challenges in the mating market, and this is simply not the case. Simply put, none of you, regardless as to whether you like girls or not, knows what it is like to like girls as a Man. None of you knows what its like to approach things from that perspective. And to be frank, none of you knows what it’s like to be in what the Manosphere refers to as the Desert.

                  Every Man reading this will know exactly what I am talking about.

                  So, me saying the exact same thing to Mr. Joel is markedly different because yes, I am a Man. And even more to the point, I have been where he currently is. Which brings me to the next point:

                  Mr. Joel cannot as easily BS me as he might anyone else. I am perfectly fine wwith his or any other Man’s decision to disengage from the mating market; in fact, I will readiily concede that there are quite a few legitimate reasons to do so.

                  But it is clear Mr. Joel does not wish to do that. Because if he did, he wouldn’t be here – or at the least, he wouldn’t be here “asking for advice” lo these many years.

                  I can relate better to Mr. Joel better than most here, because again I’ve been where he is. The vast majority of Brothas simply don’t have the time or interest, and quite a few have shown open indifference, to out and out contempt, for Mr. Joels (and other Brothas like him – of which there are quite a few, quiet as its kept) travails. Ours is a culture that doesn’t just sek to assist each other, but one that often seeks to actively uundermine each other. And this is seen especially in the area of mating. Black Men as a group, won’t just help a Brotha out,, but we will cheer his failings, seeing it as “more for me!”. And as far as I am concerned, that is part of the reason as to how and why Black America is where it is.

                  And that needs to stop. And on this score, it is something only Black Men can and should, stop.

                  So, me saying the exact same thing to Mr. Joel, is different for all the reasons I’ve noted. And also because I care about him in away that many heere cannot. That’s not a slight, just a truth.


                  • Agatha Guilluame

                    I can almost accept this…but herein lies the rub…as long as you continue to see him as the “Tyrone” archetype as opposed to what he is, the “Eeyore” archetype (I just made that a thing) then you’ll continue to be led astray.

                    I have a working definition on the Eeyore archetype if you need it.

                    • @Ms. Agatha:
                      Please! Come, let us reason together…

                      By the way, Mr. Joel, by definition, wouldn’t be a “Tyrone”. More here:


                    • Agatha Guilluame

                      I’m here.

                    • @Ms. Agatha:

                      Excellent! OK, first: I do NOT consider Mr. Joel a “Tyrone”, and that’s because of who he is in terms of Class.

                      “Tyrone is explained, in part, here:

                      I have a few other links to post up that you can read over the weekend if you want…stand by…

                    • @Ms. Agatha:

                      More on Tyrone:

                      So, just wanted to get that out of the way.
                      Now, if you want to argue that Tyrone and Joel have some things in common, I’m more than willing to hear that, and we can hash it all out. But Just want to be clear on who I mean when I use the phrase “Tyrone”. It ain’t Mr. Joel.
                      I’d very much like to hear your “Eyeore” concept. Please…

                    • Agatha Guilluame

                      I read your post. *trembles with power*

                      The comment section is locked so I’ll reply to you here.

                      We are in agreement, Joel, isn’t by definition, a Tyrone. Four months ago you thought he was, now you know better.

                      Joel’s unwillingness, his stubbornness—Eeyore is a mule
                      after all—puts him solidly outside of your Tyrone archetype. Nothing about your brief character study of Tyrone says anything about being mule headed. By yours and Hill’s definition the Tyrone type is industrious and honest; solid and levelheaded…what about Joel says that to you? So, where is my apology sir?

                      Also, I don’t appreciate 20,000 words (probably) decrying black women’s wholesale rejection of the Tyrone’s of the world. If that’s even true, which I’m hard-pressed to believe because every chick I know is degreed up to some extent, BA, MA, PhD, RN, JD, MD and yet if you look at who they’re dating, they are dating the Tyrone’s of the world, including me (well I was). Maybe a few want to date the Harpers of the world but like you said…they only constitute but 5% of the mating pool. If your theory holds true then ~95% of black females are single. So meh on your point. Especially when you have so many reasons (damn good ones too) for why you yourself aren’t dating Tyrone’s counterpart, Tamika. You have your reasons and those that aren’t dating Tyrone have theirs…although I don’t think it merits a one-sided sociological study.
                      Maybe more of a roundtable discussion with a bitter Brian, bitter Betty panel.

                      However, I do think it’s great that you posed a problem (however made up) and offered a solution that worked for you. If you want to do the work for these men that their absentee fathers didn’t then I say “hear, hear”.

                    • Obsidian Files

                      Hello Ms. Agatha,
                      Thanks for the response. Mine is below:

                      “I read your post. *trembles with power*
                      The comment section is locked so I’ll reply to you here.”

                      O: It is? Hmm…we leave the comments section open on every post for anyone to comment. I’ll have to look into that, thanks for bringing it to my attention…

                      “We are in agreement, Joel, isn’t by definition, a Tyrone. Four months ago you thought he was, now you know better.”

                      O: I’m sorry, but where is this idea coming from? I have never designated the gent in question as a Tyrone; as you can see he cannot be one by definition.

                      “Joel’s unwillingness, his stubbornness—Eeyore is a mule
                      after all—puts him solidly outside of your Tyrone archetype. Nothing about your
                      brief character study of Tyrone says anything about being mule headed. By yours and Hill’s definition the Tyrone
                      type is industrious and honest; solid and levelheaded…what about Joel says that
                      to you? So, where is my apology sir?”

                      O: Again, how can I apologize for something I never claimed? The gent in question isn’t Blue Collar, so that alone by definition means he cannot be a Tyrone. Still scratching my head over this notion that I’ve marked the gent in question as a Tyrone…

                      “Also, I don’t appreciate 20,000 words (probably) decrying black women’s wholesale rejection of the Tyrone’s of the world.”

                      O: Quite understandable, because I would decry it too if indeed I was making such a case; but I was not. I was speaking about specific sectors of the Black American SMP. Not Black Women as a whole. And since you’ve read my piece, clearly you know and see that.

                      “If that’s even true, which, I’m hard-pressed to believe because every chick I know is degreed up to some extent, BA, MA, PhD, RN, JD, MD and yet if you look at who they’re dating, they ar e dating the Tyrone’s of the world, including me (well I was).”

                      O: Thank you for confirming what I’ve said. Your own experience speaks to this. Moreover, assuming that what you say about your own personal circle is true, it then begs the very real question of just how many such Sistas do you actually know? 100? 1000? 10K? 100K? Give me a number, or failing that, an estimate, please, of all these Sistas who currently have Tyrones on their arms? I’d surely like to know. Thanks!

                      “Maybe a few want to date the Harpers of the world but like you said…they only constitute but 5% of the mating pool.”

                      O: Actually I didn’t say it – Tyrone did, in an off the cuff conversation he was having with Mr. Harper at a sports bar. And sure, we can quibble about the exact number…but the point is this:

                      The 20/80 Rule, is very, very Real, in Black American life. I have plans to discuss this in greater detail in an upcoming column over at J4G. I’ll let you know when it drops.

                      “If your theory holds true then ~95% of black females are single. So meh on your point.”

                      O: Not necessarily; you have to take into account AFBB as well…

                      “Especially when you have so many reasons (damn good ones too) for why you yourself aren’t dating Tyrone’s counterpart, Tamika.”

                      O: Thank you! It is something that has long merited examination, and the very fact that I have done so at this late date in the “conversation” itself, raises all manner of juicy questions – like for example, WHY has no one in the Ebony Tower, or among the Black relationship experts and the like, done so?

                      “You have your reasons and those that aren’t dating Tyrone have theirs…although I don’t think it merits a one-sided sociological study.”

                      O: First, how is what I’ve written “a one-sided sociological study”? Especially when, for decades at this point, the “conversation” has been so woefully “one-sided” to begin with? Are you honestly saying that Tyrone has been represented in these “conversations”? If so, can you please point me in the direction of evidence that this is indeed the case? If anything, my “Tyrone” series, is a much-needed and long overdue corrective, bringing balance to the Force.

                      “Maybe more of a roundtable discussion with a bitter Brian, bitter Betty panel.”

                      O: It is interesting that you devolve to such characterizations, suggesting that there’s no there, there; I respectfully disagree. I don’t think Tyrone is a “Bitter Brian” at all, and I take umbrage at the mere suggestion that he is, simply because he voices legitimate grievances with the current Black American SMP – after all, no one was marking out the many, many Sistas who have banged on about these issues for decades, as “Bitter Bettys” – indeed if anything, theirs was a plight that has been taken up and championed at the highest levels of entertainment, media and academia, both Black and White(!). I say that it’s a good thing that Tyrone got a voice in the “conversation”, and I feel very fortunate to be the conduit through which that side of the “conversation” now takes place. It really does make you think – doesn’t it?

                      “However, I do think it’s great that you posed a problem (however made up) and offered a solution that worked for you.”

                      O: How is what I’ve pointed out a “made up problem”? Because you just happened to know an undetermined number of Sistas who don’t have it? Because you happened to, at some undetermined point in the past, date a Tyrone? Is that it? One wonders if you would be so quick to shoutdown all those Sistas at the umpteen panel discussions who bemoan their love lives – or is this reserved only for the Tyrone Brothas who dares to give voice to their own observations along these lines?

                      “If you want to do the work for these m en that their absentee fathers didn’t then I say “hear, hear”.”

                      O: Again, another diversionary remark…and quite disappointing at that. Your comment presumes that merely having a dad around, would ameliorate the problems the Tyrones face – well, I had a dad in my life, and it didn’t address it one bit.

                      Please, Ms. Agatha, try to engage the argument seriously. It’s why I write about the Tyrones in the first place.


                    • Agatha Guilluame

                      I won’t discuss Tyrone and Tamika any further until I too get my apology…please see your reply to me four months ago. I didn’t post it under today’s thread because Joel’s name is mentioned in our exchange quite a lot. I will also post my own comments.

                    • Agatha Guilluame

                      You did in fact call Joel a Tyrone. I will find it and post it.

                    • Agatha Guilluame

                      You compared Joel to Tyrone.

        • ThatOneAKA

          As a fellow GenXer, this is by far the BEST explanation I have read! I am in academia and struggle with teaching millennials as the expectation and thought process is so different. I am adapted some teaching methods to keep them engaged, but still find it frustrating. This is truly a great synopsis of why millennials get that side eye.

      • Can we live?

        • We will. Baby boomers are all hitting that age where they’re sliding into retirement homes to be forgotten by their kids and some are already dying off. Idk what Gen X is doing but I want them to be happy. They’re just so angry and delusional about how life was better before the internet “ruined everything”. But I honestly want Gen X to get out of debt and enjoy their 40’s and such.

          • Medium Meech

            I’m not generation X, (Millenial, Y or whatever) but I think you have a weird view of them.

            • Perception and such. My eyes. Different view :-)

          • Epsilonicus

            Remember that grunge and punk came out with Gen X. They are not known has the happiest generation

          • Jacqueline

            The funny thing about that is my parents are in their mid 70’s and have witnessed the burial of many baby boomers (people who are 50-63), so life does not always work in the order we think it does.

    • PhlyyPhree

      Color loving though?

  • I Need A Bottle Of Wine

    This song encapsulates the SMP perfectly. Replace money with game. Replace rich guy with chexually confident guy.

    Can I get a witness?

  • LadyIbaka

    His beats are loyal, maybe, no?! I’m yet to be bored by any stuff he puts out. Secondly, that altercation seems to have boosted his popularity, in some circles they call it notoriety (sp?!)

    nb:// the new re-design is popping. very cartoonish (it is a compliment!!!!!!!)

    • Msdebbs

      no press is bad press

  • nillalatte

    Female artist who went all the way down and came back (well, not quite all the way back)
    Whitney Houston.

    As for Chris, he needs to get his shyt together (Justin Beiber is in the same boat too). Have these ignant souls forgotten that celebrities get they arse locked up too?! I don’t get it. No, I really don’t. Play the game, get it right, or stay locked up.

    I do enjoy Chris’ music, but if he keeps acting a fool, we won’t get to hear him for a long time!

    • Epsilonicus

      People were willing to give Whitney the world no matter what she did. And then folks still blamed Bobby, even when he got clean and she was still getting high.

      • Amber

        Yeah for so long people blamed Bobby for Whitney’s mess until we saw that reality show Being Bobby Brown.

        • Epsilonicus

          Even after that show though people still blamed Bobby. To be honest I would not be surprised if Whitney introduced Bobby to the coke.

          • Amber

            I wouldn’t be surprised either because I think it was Whitney’s brother who introduced her to drugs early on.

            • Yeah…about that…

              Word on the street is that Whitney Houston and Cherrelle were best friends and drug buddies from back in the day- but you didn’t hear that from me…

              *whistles and walks off*

      • afronica

        I remember when her first album dropped. Heard the songs and saw all the videos. I thought Pop Princess because that sure was the image her team was pushing. Then I saw an interview of hers, and I thought Hood with Gloss on Top. And I wondered how long she would be able to keep both of those plates spinning. Cue coke (however she came by it). Watched those plates start to fall.

  • nillalatte

    And, now VSB is locking me up. I am not amused.

    • Sahel

      Be loyal

  • Val

    But, PJ, what did Aaliyah have to recover from? She was only 15 years old when the perv married her. We don’t hold 15 year olds accountable for the pervy actions of 27 year olds, do we?

    Otherwise, Alicia Keys was/ is publicly shamed for dating a married man and her career survived. The key to that was, for the most part, her relationship with him never really bubbled up to the mainstream media.

    And, of course there is Brittney Spears. She had several public melt-downs and became the butt of jokes for several years and somehow she still has a career.

    The best recent example though was Amy Whinehouse. Her transgressions are too long to list and the media attacked her mercilessly and yet her career was solidly still in tact until her untimely demise.

    • Also add Mariah Carey

      • The thing is that Mariah Carey imploded as opposed to exploded. Also, by the time she did that, she had such a strong track record that she could do the dip for a minute and be fine. She managed an album a year for a decade. Impressive work.

        • That lends itself to another point, few women artists cant afford to slack off, there’s 20 replacements lined up.

          • So far, it’s been 30 years and there’s been no replacement for Sade or Anita Baker…

            • CamCamtheGreat

              Because their style/genre doesn’t exist anymore.

              • towninc

                bring it back please!!!

                • It exists, you just have to dig around to find it. It’s surely not pop and not getting play.

                  • Thank God for internet radio!

                    • Val

                      Do you like Nicole Willis?

                    • Val
                    • She’s alright, but I haven’t bought anything from her- mostly because that 60’s sound has been done to death already. She has a great voice, though.

                    • Val

                      I like her and her band. It’s so refreshing to hear actual instruments as opposed to electronic music.

                    • Then you probably would like a band called The Revelations. The band is led by Rell- a former singer from Jay-Z’s Roc-A-Fella whose two albums under that label were shelved.

                    • Val keep the music recommendations coming :-) I think i discovered Sam Smith via AM or you….so tired of pop music!

              • Yeah, it does- at least in the urban adult contemporary world.

            • Amber

              Sade is just Sade and I love it! I did see that Jhene Aiko said that she is the urban Sade though…I didn’t read any further to get an explanation.

              • afronica

                That whispering nothing of a gal needs to shut her mouth. Completely. Sullying the name of Sade that way. *sucks teef loudly*

                • LadyIbaka

                  I saw the Sade reference and I was like you know what, these mofos got interns running things. It’s like comparing New England clam chowder and New York style clam chowder, impossible.

                  • afronica

                    It’s like comparing New England clam chowda and isht…which come to think of it *is* like comparing New England’s finest to that red crap.

                    • LadyIbaka

                      you ain’t never lied.

                • SororSalsa

                  Jhene Aiko is a “feeling some kind of way” artist for me. When I’m in a certain mood, her music appeals. But she can miss me with that Urban Sade ish….SMH.

              • Jhene is nowhere near being like Sade. The only person that can be compared to Miss Adu is Dido- and that’s about it.

                Jhene’s music is like something you would hear on The Weather Channel, LOLOL!

                • Amber

                  Oh I def agree. I thought it was funny that she’d even mention it. I just wasn’t that interested in clicking on the story yesterday to get why

            • Epsilonicus

              I love me some Sade. That is my milfy thirst trap right there

      • Val

        But, Mariah really didn’t have any incidents other than her, strange at times, behavior. There were no scandals. Or am I forgetting something?

        • *sings loudly*

          Tommy Mottolla lives on the road…

          • He lost his lady…two months ago! LOL

            Yeah, that whole marriage looked somewhat shady at the time and really shady now. While Mariah was legal when she got married to Tommy Mottola, the whole circumstance of her career, and how she acted the second she was free, speaks volumes.

            • This was controversial both in the industry as well as at Sony Music Entertainment. You see, a lot of artists signed to Columbia Records felt she was getting special treatment and preferential treatment because she was sleeping with the boss.

              Not helping her case was the fact that he was the one that signed her and promoted her and she happened to be the highest selling artist on the label- even with subpar songs and/or albums…which she had in mass abundance.

              • Yeah, that second and third album of hers was straight mediocre. The good news for Mariah Carey’s part is that she built her own rep outside of Tommy Mottola, though some people preferred her when she was Tommy’s baby.

              • towninc


                • Yeah, subpar. Mariah isn’t exactly an album artist- she and Sony Music knew that. All they wanted from her was singles and that’s all people remember her for. If you notice, not one person has ever said Mariah has a definitive career album or a classic album. To further prove my point, her greatest hits album from 1998 is her highest selling album to date.

                  • You can’t front though…those are some d*mn good singles though.

                  • towninc

                    oh you’re right…i haven’t bought a mariah carey song since the early 90s. it just didn’t feel that long ago for some reason.

          • Val
            • Rachmo

              aaaah I like this version too!!!

              • kidvideo

                Ghostface did it better.

                • Val

                  Better than the original? Nah.

                • Rachmo

                  Well they are so different it’s hard to compare. Dr. Buzzard’s is more whimsical and fun while Ghostface’s is more modern and $exy

            • miss t-lee

              “Sunshower” was another good one by them.

              • Val

                Yep and M.I.A did a remake with different lyrics.

                • miss t-lee

                  Hmmm, I’ll check it.

          • Val

            But did average people know anything about who Tommy Mattolla was back then?

            • Yeah, people knew who Tommy Mottola was. He was one of the biggest execs in the business at the time.

              • miss t-lee

                That’s why it was big news when him and Mariah got together.

            • Absolutely! You have to remember that he was a very visible presence in the music scene (as evidenced by his name being mentioned in “Cherchez La Femme”). He was also the longtime manager of Hall & Oates prior to heading Sony Music Entertainment.

              Tommy was the kind of person that had great ideas, but his mouth got him into trouble most of the time. That’s the reason why he’s not well liked in the industry, LOL!

    • Sweet Ga Brown

      There’s also Jennifer Lopez and the things that happened while she was dating Diddy and her numerous marriages.

      • Val

        Hiya, Sweet!

        True, JLo dodged a bullet (pun intended) with regard to that club shooting. I think it was because she dumped Diddy right after that and also because he was never charged with anything. But you’re right, that night could have potentially ruined her career though.

        • LadyIbaka

          Diddy ruins lives, but breathes life into businesses. Lawwd hammercy!

    • Epsilonicus

      Amy Winehouse was ugly but she could SANG!

      • Freebird

        she was the real deal.

      • Val

        She wasn’t bad looking before the drugs got her though.

        • miss t-lee

          Exactly…and before she got all scary skinny.
          Frank era Amy was cute.

          • kidvideo

            “Fuck Me Pumps” was my song.

            • miss t-lee


            • Val

              That and Me and Mr Jones.

              • kidvideo

                That whole album was fire….one of her songs had a remix with…wait for it…Ghostface.

                • miss t-lee

                  Oh yeah. The Ghostface remix is how I first became acquainted with Miss Amy.

                  • Cuz u had to be a nasty girl and try ta play me

                    • miss t-lee

                      Once you go Ghost, you never go back.

              • LehcarB

                Me and Mr Jones introduced “fuckery” in my life. Iconic

      • CamCamtheGreat

        She was cute when she was kinda thick.

    • miss t-lee

      “And, of course there is Brittney Spears. She had several public
      melt-downs and became the butt of jokes for several years and somehow
      she still has a career.”

      Yeah, the lights are on, but Britney is no longer at home.
      They’ve got her medicated to kingdom come.

      • Andrea

        I don’t think its medication. I think it is the fact that she is now in her thirties.

        • Val

          Actually I’ve heard that she is medicated. And also that her money is or was being controlled by her dad because of her behavior.

          • miss t-lee

            I believe she is, remember when she was on that 72 hour hold, and her folks had to take over?

          • Well, that explains how she hooked Federline. Bi-polar $ex is incredibly intense. :)

        • miss t-lee

          Nah. If you even watch her try to talk in interviews, or even when she was on X-Factor. She’s outta there.
          Reminds me of how Anna Nicole Smith used to talk.

    • panamajackson

      Amy Winehouse is a good example…i kind of wonder what would have happened had she lived longer.

      You’re right on Aaliyah, I dont even blame her for it. I’m saying that it seems like her family tries their best to pretend that never existed.

      • Val

        Yeah, Aaliyah’s family definitely tries to play that down. Which is too bad in a way because had they made a big thing of it when it happened RKelly might have not been able to get away with the stuff he did later on.

        • I think Aaliyah’s family had business ties with R. Kelly. They were likely trying to protect their own money.

        • Amber

          Yep I agree and it makes you wonder about the family. But maybe like other amilies they just sweep it under the rug because they don’t know how else to handle it.

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