Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Pop Culture, Race & Politics, Theory & Essay

The 500 Billion Dollar Question

You don't believe you, you need more people.

In a week where we 1) saw approximately 126,000 different moderately famous men all decide to come out of the closet on the exact same day, 2) watched the Terminator get kicked out of the Kennedys for doing what Kennedys do, and 3) came thisclose to experiencing the first act of “Left Behind” (and by “thisclose” I mean “not f*cking close at all“), the reaction to Satoshi Kanazawa’s “Why Are Black Women Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women” still remained the most interesting story.

Seriously, in the three years that VSB has been around, I can honestly say that I’ve never seen a non-“important news” related meme catch fire and spread on the internet the way it did. Between Twitter, Facebook, news articles, blogs, and a particularly inspired (and particularly humorous) bout of scientific ownage, Kanazawa’s “study” was discussed, critiqued, examined, and denounced from every conceivable angle as we — content producers — practically tripped over ourselves in a mad dash to somehow get invited to this orgy of easy outrage and (easier) page views.

Although the tone of the preceding paragraph may have implied that I was disappointed with all the attention this story received, I actually was pleasantly surprised by the power and reach of our collective voice. I’m sure Kanazawa himself was surprised as well (although I’m assuming his surprise wasn’t as pleasant) when seeing that the reaction to his article might cost him his job at the London School of Economics — a direct effect of a few grassroots efforts to mobilize and protest.

While getting a quack scientist fired isn’t really that big of a deal, the insanely quick turnaround proves that we can get sh*t done if we put our creative resources together.

You know what would be even more impressive?

Find out exactly how this…

African-American women consistently rate themselves (collectively and individually) more attractive than any other culture of women on the planet. Every objective measure of self-image in comparison to non-black women reflects this.

…and this…

African-American women spend more per person on hair and beauty products — products where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look “less black”¹ — than any other culture of women on the planet.

…can both be true.

¹”Less black” may have been a poor choice of words. Still, without turning it into a semantics argument, I think the point I’m trying to convey is pretty apparent.

—The Champ

No rapture means that God wants you to stay on Earth and purchase the paperback or the $9.99 Kindle version of “Your Degrees Wont Keep You Warm at Night: The Very Smart Brothas Guide to Dating, Mating, and Fighting Crime”

We’d like to thank all of you for coming through and nominating us for FIVE Black Weblog Awards. We’re on the final ballot for Best Humor Blog, Best Writing in a Blog, Best Sex & Relationships Blog, Best Group Blog, and Blog of the Year. Please vote for us here.


Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a contributing editor for EBONY.com. He resides in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes.

  • Masiotso

    “where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look less black”

    What is less black?

    • tgtaggie

      I guess it would be shades of light brown, mocha, pecan and etc…..lol.

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      Beyonce, Mariah Carey, Halle Berry, Alicia Keys, etc et al…

      O.

      • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

        You do know that three of your examples are from bi-racial women right? You do know that? Using mixed race people as the barometer of ‘pureness’ (which is problematic for too many reasons to count) is asinine. By the very definition of their existence, they would have to be ‘less black’. This is like using Hines Ward as what it looks like to be Asian.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “You do know that three of your examples are from bi-racial women right?”

          O: Yes, I know.

          “You do know that?”

          O: Yes, I know.

          “Using mixed race people as the barometer of ‘pureness’ (which is problematic for too many reasons to count) is asinine.”

          O: I didn’t say anything about “pureness”; I was merely talking about the fact that Black Women who look less “Black” tend to have an easier go of it in our society. Do you disagree with that, Malik?

          “By the very definition of their existence, they would have to be ‘less black’. This is like using Hines Ward as what it looks like to be Asian.”

          O: Of course; but how does that conflict with what I said?

          O.

          • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

            No they do not. Or not at least since ‘passing’ became irrelevant. The reason those 4 women may of had easier lives is because they’re attractive and talented. There are far too mitigating factors in the Black American experience to say that 1 thing makes their entire life easier. Where they grew up, their attractiveness, education level, how they were raise, whether or not they were lower, middle, or upper class, etc.

          • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

            By the by, contrary to popular belief there isn’t a single blueprint to genetic ‘blackness’.

            • Intelligentleman

              And there it is.

              The relevance of this whole discussion depends entirely on a uniform and globally accepted definition of “black” or “blackness”, which we all know does not even exist amongst us here in the U.S….or hell, even within Atlanta city limits…let alone globally. It is an absurd concept in an of itself.

              • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

                thing is, despite the different types of “blackness,” i think people know exactly what’s being referred to when people mention “black” features, and pretending not to is just a semantics game.

                • Sula

                  No it’s not… a semantics game that is… No less than this “attempt” at controversy is, really.

                • Intelligentleman

                  I know exactly what you mean, but that isn’t necessarily the case here.

                  I think it’s a bit presumptuous of us to assume that we all agree upon what defines “blackness”, even though I may assume you mean a certain thing(s). This is evident by how emphatic disagreements are when these topics come up. True, there are some that are not forthcoming and thus play a game. But that doesn’t lessen the fact that there are legitimate disagreements on the subject.

                • Carter

                  I agree.

              • Qozmic

                precisely…

            • Mo-VSS

              I usually don’t like your comments (just being real) but this is truth.com

        • Cayenne

          I brought up this same question last week when someone said that Paula Patton was the “finest black woman to hit the earth”. I know she identifies as a black woman but by nature of her being biracial she isn’t really a sample of what I would put as “ideal” black beauty. Gorgeous of course…but most black people don’t and wont ever look like that. As a standard it is like using Hines Ward as the sexiest Asian alive. lol

          • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

            I brought up this same question last week when someone said that Paula Patton was the “finest black woman to hit the earth”. I know she identifies as a black woman but by nature of her being biracial she isn’t really a sample of what I would put as “ideal” black beauty. Gorgeous of course…but most black people don’t and wont ever look like that. As a standard it is like using Hines Ward as the sexiest Asian alive. lol

            i think this is a valid subject. when asked, we (black men and black women) do have a tendency to name women with more “euro” features when asked to think of beautiful women. now, these women are obviously beautiful, but I do think it says something about us when like 50% of our go-to standards of beauty are biracial.

            • ChimingIn

              Note: this is a double post, please delete/ignore the one at the bottom of the page/ Thx!

              MAAAD late, but I’ve been noticing that people, both black and otherwise have a tendency to say that ANY black woman who gets a little shine somehow has European features. That is, unless a woman has skin that is black as night, a very broad nose, and a close-cropped fade, she somehow does not count. Not even Alek Wek has a big, broad nose and she’s clearly straight out of Africa.

              Beyond that, I think it’s especially rude to discount people like a Liya Kebede or Iman who are both straight BLACK, no chaser as counting for our team.

              I’ve heard people say Gabrielle Union has European features. Where? Zoe Saldana has straight hair, yes, but she clearly has a broad, West-African-descended nose. Especially here (http://backseatcuddler.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/zoe-saldana.jpg) and here (http://static.igossip.com/photos/gossipgander_Zoe_Saldana_35151_2cnyzvr.jpg).

              Also, there’s a reality with beauty: not everyone in any particular ethnic group gets to have it. But if we ARE going to try to find beauty in our own and give examples, then we need to make fair comparisons. Don’t compare Alicia Keys and Paula Patton to freaking Whoopi Goldberg and India Arie. Compare Keys and Patton to Kaone Kario (http://us-africa.tripod.com/KaoneKario.jpg) or Oluchi (http://www.modelinia.com/_content/models/205/GQMagazinGJ096056-oluchi.jpg). Put Apples with Apples.

              • rnic

                Just an FYI, Zoe Saldana is Dominican. She’s not black, although her name somehow always seems to come up in discussions about black women and beauty standards.

                • nina

                  Zoe Saldana is a black woman from the Dominican Republic. She is not African American,but she is “black”.

                • RadioRascoe

                  RNIC, I couldn’t agree with you more. People keep bringing up Zoe like she’s black. You’re right, Zoe is dominican but will suffice as hollywood’s answer to the marketable black women; a women who is not black. Pitiful.

                • Sysy

                  rnic and radiorasco- kill ya selves. I HOPE you’re not both hispanic because that would be a shame that you don’t know the diversity that exists within hispanic culture. Do you really think the NATIVE INDIANS of South America looked like most of the hispanics that are around today with their curly hair and naturally tan skin?? NO! Spanish colonizers brought Africans all across South America.

                  In short, Zoe Saldana is a BLACK DOMINICAN. Heck, many Dominicans are as black as I am and some are even darker!

                  EDUCATE YOURSELF. A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE.

              • bellecadeau

                now straight black no chaser may not be totally appropriate. When you look at those women you are looking at a lot of Italian and Arabic genes floating around.

                straight anything is hard to find, even in Africa (gaspppp. jk)

            • http://gigs.alvinmilton.com AGDM

              Champ says: I do think it says something about us when like 50% of our go-to standards of beauty are biracial.
              Al says: +100 to that

            • WTFinJHB

              MMMmmm what about Gaby Union?

        • Qozmic

          Good point!
          I don’t think this can even be intelligently discussed without addressing the fundamental problems inherent in the term “black”. We treat this word as if it makes some kind of scientific sense,…when really it’s just a jacked up social construct based on the jacked up social construct called ‘race’.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “what is less black?”

      less “natural” may have been a more appropriate term. i think you know what I mean, though.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        Champ,
        No, “less Black” is right on target.

        O.

        • coldsweat3

          umm Less black as in products that make you have features of Europeans… Straightening of the hair, Ambi and other skin lightening products

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            That’s correct.

            O.

          • http://www.twitter.com/ChristiKennedy Christi

            Hey Ambi’s good for evening the skin-tone, it doesn’t lighten your skin that much! Just gets rid of the dark spots.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “ey Ambi’s good for evening the skin-tone, it doesn’t lighten your skin that much! Just gets rid of the dark spots.”

              O: Ambi, and other products like it, have long been used for making Black Women’s skin lighter; not only is this true here in the States, but also in the Caribbean AND in many parts of Africa.

              O.

              • http://honeyforsenses.tumblr.com/ sistaPOEt

                In the Caribbean, they don’t bother with Ambi anymore (really, did they ever?). Vybez opened up the market for the ever so infamous Jamaican “Cake Soap”, apparently much more effective than Ambi for whitening the skin.

                • http://www.nicklodeon.wordpress.com Nick@Nite

                  I can’t even begin to state what the h*ll he looks like…..

                  • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    Like “mayonnaise and corruption”

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                      LMAO

                      You ain’t never gonna be right. I love it.

                    • Qozmic

                      Like “mayonnaise and corruption”….

                      Hahahaha!… Oh SNAP! I literally shot a booger outta my nose laughin at that! You dead wrong!

                  • http://honeyforsenses.tumblr.com/ sistaPOEt

                    me either…especially now since he has begun wearing weave and has tattooed the word “DEVIL”, amongst other atrocities, on his evenly whitened skin.

                    and he’s starting to dress all gay-like. nttawt…

                    unless you’re actually gay.

        • Dig

          I agree with less “natural” because Beyonce looks black as does Halle feature wise to me and my fam.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            “I agree with less “natural” because Beyonce looks black as does Halle feature wise to me and my fam.”

            O: Both have considerably high levels of White admixture in their blood, which results in them both coming a heck of a lot closer in physical appearance to Mariah Carey and Alicia Keys, than to India.Aire or Angie Stone.

            O.

            • Dig

              Umm Jessica White has finer features than Beyonce. Skin color doesn’t mean more or less black.

              • Dig

                Or shall I say more keen features.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                Who is Jessica White? Do you agree or disagree with what I said; I reiterate:

                “Both have considerably high levels of White admixture in their blood, which results in them both coming a heck of a lot closer in physical appearance to Mariah Carey and Alicia Keys, than to India.Aire or Angie Stone.”

                O: Do you agree or disagree with that stamtment?

                That would be a “yes” or “no” answer…

                O.

                • Dig

                  She’s a brown/dark complexioned American super model (victoria’s secret, cosmetics, etc.). The black women you have chosen are biracial and not a product of two black parents so I don’t feel as though you can compare their physical appearance to that of Tracey Chapman and Whoopi Goldberg. With that said…the answer is no I don’t agree with the term “less black”. Alicia Keys looks less black than Halle Berry. Beyonce and India Arie both look black to me. One is less natural than the other though. Only thing that is different is complexion.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “She’s a brown/dark complexioned American super model (victoria’s secret, cosmetics, etc.). The black women you have chosen are biracial and not a product of two black parents so I don’t feel as though you can compare their physical appearance to that of Tracey Chapman and Whoopi Goldberg. With that said…the answer is no I don’t agree with the term “less black”. Alicia Keys looks less black than Halle Berry. Beyonce and India Arie both look black to me. One is less natural than the other though. Only thing that is different is complexion.”

                    O: Halle Berry looks “less Black” than the average Sista in American society. Same for Beyonce. Heck, we can even say the same for Jill Scott. Look, lighter skin is valued in a Woman more than darker skin in American society, and elsewhere around the world. Why that should come as some kind of scandalous shock at this juncture is really kinda silly.

                    O.

                    • Deeds

                      Jill Scott looks “less black” than the average sista? I don’t agree with that. If Jill Scott wasn’t famous and I saw her walking down the street I would think that she was just your average everyday black woman.

                    • GirlSixx

                      “Look, lighter skin is valued in a Woman more than darker skin in American society, and elsewhere around the world. Why that should come as some kind of scandalous shock at this juncture is really kinda silly.”

                      Trust me, it isn’t shocking to us because we hear it damn near everyday in rap songs, or we see it in the media, advertising, etc. it’s a pill we are forced to swallow on the regular.

                    • http://thirtythoughts.wordpress.com thirtythoughts

                      @O
                      I think we are going based off of how Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, and Beyonce look now, as opposed to how they looked before they all got NOSE JOBS! Before these women got nose jobs, especially Halle Berry, they looked like Black women, but they all got nose jobs to appear more European, and “less Black.” I agree with the term “less Black” btw

                      I also agree that we, as Black people, all know what someone means when they say “less Black, so cut the crap.

                • coldsweat3

                  Jessica White is a SI model and she is different from most blacks that are considered “attractive” ill give you that. However we should go back to the fact that Obsidian mentioned, AA still have white bloodlines.

                  • Dig

                    I agree with the fact that we have white blood lines, but Beyonce parents and grand parents are black so the HIGH admixture quality is not fact. One creole grand parent ain’t worth mentioning.

                    • coldsweat3

                      this is true but we need to keep in mind that “thickness” is JUST now becoming popular in the states for others to embrace and not that this has been going on for the past 20 years.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “this is true but we need to keep in mind that “thickness” is JUST now becoming popular in the states for others to embrace and not that this has been going on for the past 20 years.”

                      O: That’s not what Mia Amber Davis said before she died, and that’s certainly not the view shared by Jennifer Hudson…

                      O.

              • hehe

                she had her nose done

            • chelsea

              I read this blog everyday and the best thing about it are the intelligent and at the very least interesting discourse it provokes. That said it completely does my head in when one person tries to usurp the whole discourse and make it about their ego. Seriously 0bsidian. You make some good points which people dont always agree with but why oh why does it have to go on and on and on? It adds absolutely nothing to the validity of your points and gives a sense of petty-ness. After a while its all white noise ok, please consider that and try to keep it healthy . You cant make people agree or even put your point across effectively if u beat people over the heads with your opinion. Your words lose all meaning this way.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                “I read this blog everyday and the best thing about it are the intelligent and at the very least interesting discourse it provokes. That said it completely does my head in when one person tries to usurp the whole discourse and make it about their ego. Seriously 0bsidian. You make some good points which people dont always agree with but why oh why does it have to go on and on and on? It adds absolutely nothing to the validity of your points and gives a sense of petty-ness. After a while its all white noise ok, please consider that and try to keep it healthy . You cant make people agree or even put your point across effectively if u beat people over the heads with your opinion. Your words lose all meaning this way.”

                O: I am not “beating people over the heads with my opinion” – in fact, neither you, nor the rest of the folk here at VSB actually knows what my personal opinions on the matter are. And that’s the point – my or anyone else’s personal views are irrelevant here. What this whole episode, now playing itself out worldwide has shown, is just how difficult for Black Women themselves to be objective about things here. If Kanazawa were talking about Asian Men not being seen as attractive, would there be this enormous uproar? Would Psychology Today take down his article? Would there be all manner of Asian Guy organizations clamoring for his head on a platter? I think we both know the answer to the question.

                In many ways, this incident follows on the heels of the Larry Summers incident at Harvard, and the James Watson incident that caused him to lose his job as head of Cold Harbor Spring labs. This is not a reasoned, objective response. It is anything but.

                There are some very important issues that Black Women are doing their level best to avoid, and the saddest part of that is, that it isn’t working. Everyone knows the deal here, it’s just that you are not allowed to say that the Queen is standing in the buck. The right and proper thing to do is for Sistas themselves to make an honest, critical assessment of themselves, do what they can to improve their marketshare in the SMP, and get on with the business of living. Taking Kanazawa out will do nothing to address their problems.

                O.

              • Nerd Girl

                Agreed I read daily and rarely comment. But you speak the truth!

                • Nerd Girl

                  My comment is in response to Chelsea, not O.

              • Sula

                Chelsea darling… I understand what you are trying to do… Seriously, I do. But have you ever heard that saying “There is none so deaf as he who will not hear.”? This is a classic case of that proverb… Don’t bother reasoning with someone who has a hard time understanding the meaning of “reason”…

                This was my friendly PSA. ;)

                • miss t-lee

                  “Don’t bother reasoning with someone who has a hard time understanding the meaning of “reason”…”

                  Okay?! :/
                  Props to you, Chelsea for trying though!

                • http://shay-d-lady.com shay-d-lady

                  @ Chelsea, thanks for making that point Chelsea
                  @Sula “I understand what you are trying to do… Seriously, I do. But have you ever heard that saying “There is none so deaf as he who will not hear.”? This is a classic case of that proverb… Don’t bother reasoning with someone who has a hard time understanding the meaning of “reason”…

                  BWAHAHAHAHAHA LOL let me start of the slow clap…

                • Chelsea

                  Sula I know youre right.. Normally I’d just keep it moving and not bother saying anything but I was just so frustrated having read through all the comments (about 400) at the time and it felt like at least 195 of them were Obsidians. He’s tenacious with the follow up I’ll give him that..

                  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                    Cause he has to have the last word. Cause that means he won. And he has to win. At the cost of everything including basic logic.

            • Qozmic

              O, I can’t agree here brotha…

              Picture Halle or Beyonce looking exactly the same, but with darker skin. I know sisters that look exactly like them. And they are fine as hell too. Both those women are fine because they have amazing bone structure. And nice bodies.

              But then, I’m not a brotha that has a problem seeing beauty in dark skin. Many of the women I date are dark skin, some brown, some hi yella… a few even white, Latina or Asian.

              Bottom line, them sisters are just fine. “European” features don’t enter into it.

          • marissa

            Halle and Beyonce also both have had nose jobs to have less obviously african noses. They both relax their hair straight as well and are the on the lighter side of the spectrum of African women. Also the companies they model for occasionally lighten their skin in national advertisements.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Halle and Beyonce also both have had nose jobs to have less obviously african noses. They both relax their hair straight as well and are the on the lighter side of the spectrum of African women. Also the companies they model for occasionally lighten their skin in national advertisements.”

              O: Exactly. So, knowing all of this, what are we to make of it? I mean, are we to take away from that, that such Women are doing this, merely out of some disengenuous personal “choice” devoid of any racial considerations?

              Come on.

              O.

            • WIP

              Africa is a huge continent; are there no Africans with noses that look like theirs? It’s a huge assumption to imply that was their reasoning- maybe they just didn’t like their noses- like thousand of people of other races that get nose jobs.

              • Sula

                Shoot, my nose does! And I’m “straight outta Africa”! :)

    • http://www.twitter.com SmartFoxGirl

      Seriously, what is Black in this country? So if I don’t have nappy hair, I’m not Black? I see a lot of Black Africans with fine features and curly hair. Not all Black people have the same hair type. We love to define our Blackness like there’s this big Black equation/formula. I just don’t see the big deal if a Black woman wants to straighten her hair. It’s possible to love being Black but not like nappy hair. I don’t like black gums. Does that mean I don’t like Black people? Lol And white women don’t have the hair game on lock.. Indian people do.

      • Dig

        “Seriously, what is Black in this country? So if I don’t have nappy hair, I’m not Black?”

        Second that.

        • http://honeyforsenses.tumblr.com/ sistaPOEt

          Just make sure you have a “fro” wig in your closet (for days like today) and you should be good… certified blackness.

      • Yoles

        I see a lot of Black Africans with fine features and curly hair. Not all Black people have the same hair type.

        SFG i say this all the time, so the Somalians and Ethiopians that I personally know that have fine features and curly hair are not black? so black only means dark skin, broad features and tightly coiled hair? one day we are not a monolith the next day we all have to look the same or we are trying to look white… i get so confused and lost in the sauce in these topics… i never think so hard about hair straightening or ambi and that… my mom used to make me use ambi on my elbows and knees, i know she wasn’t trying to make me look white… geesh…

        i also mentioned down thread straight hair BELONGS TO ASIANS… which ever ones you like, east asians, south asians etc…

        • coldsweat3

          @Yoles re: Somalians and Ethiopians

          Okay let us not forget what are considered historic genetic black features such as wider noses and kinky/curly hair. Africa was still colonized. Somalia and Ethiopia and that overall region were some of the earliest civilizations that were active in trade CENTURIES ago and would have begun race mixing centuries ago.

          • Yoles

            so again.. are we saying that unless you are dark/kinky/broad featured you are not considered black? if Africa is the birthplace of mankind isn’t every genetic trait traceable back there?

            • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

              EXACTLY.

            • coldsweat3

              ummm no. I was not saying your not black if you dont have those features. I was actually saying that most peoples of the african diaspora have wider noses and kinky hair. To say that every genetic trait is traceable back to Africa would be one hell of a stretch. Without going into too much of a debate on the religious Adam/Eve debate versus evolution/natural selection the fact that homosapiens left africa 50,000+ yrs ago and continued to change based upon there climate would kind of discredit the argument that these genetic traits(if we are referring to features and not DNA) are traceable back to africa.

              • niksmit

                That every genetic trait is traceable to Africa is not a stretch, it’s a fact. The various features that predominate in various climates are natural selection results. The various facial features, hair textures, and skin tones were already in the genes. They didn’t materialize from nowhere. They came from people who came from Africa.

                Sure Africans did not live in isolation after humans spread out, but I think you overestimate the degree of mobility in earlier eras.

                It is strange to me that you think there is only one natural phenotype for a large continent with multiple climates.

                • Sula

                  Slow clap.

            • Sula

              THANK YOU!!!

              Who decided that ONE type of features was more “African” (whatever that bloody means) than the other? Even within West Africa (the subcontinent) where I hail from, there are BROAD differences in genotypes/features… So the Fulani are not “Black” because they have traditionally chiseled features? How wrong is that line of thinking?

              I’m lowkey offended, yo. :)

              • coldsweat3

                “It is strange to me that you think there is only one natural phenotype for a large continent with multiple climates.”

                I think sometimes when folks read posts they take general characteristics to be folks thinking in terms of absolutes which is not the case but rather generally speaking africans have wider-noses and kinky hair w/o racial mixing. As you stated africa does have multiple climates and as such this variance would account for some different features on the continent, i was simply pointing out that someone mentioned a region of the continent which had the most exposure to Caucasians(including Arabs in this as well) to rebut some of the “general” african features. West Africa was colonized so there would also be some mixing as well just as there is within the AA population.

                • Sula

                  rather generally speaking africans have wider-noses and kinky hair w/o racial mixing.

                  Says the Black American (who at most has spent a few months in Africa) to the African girl who was born, raised in Africa AND has studied African history taught by AFRICAN historians….

                  Wow, the arrogance.

              • Qozmic

                This is the product of an American racialized mind. No disrespect, just truth. The very concept of ‘race’ isn’t even that old. And American’s …especially African Americans are woefully ignorant of how unusual our racial attitudes and assumptions are outside these borders.

              • kmplx

                seconding this: except I am high-key offended, yo!

          • http://yahoo namia

            Somali’s and Ethiopians..have always been that way..Africa is one continent with diverse kind of looking people..Down here in Uganda(East Africa)..we vary in looks according to our tribes. From the darkest skin with a pointy nose high cheekbones and wavy hair..to a light skin with broad features kinky hair..and here..we do not mix with the tourists(white) Family can disown you…some time’s you can be light with kinky hair..and you can be dark with wavy hair or a mixture of both….. i dont know if the blacks that were taken to USA were of only one kind..flat nose , dark skin, kinky hair..that makes people generalise African features..with all one brush…..

            • Around the Way Girl

              Yeah, I’ve never done any real research on this but I’ve been told by a few reputable sources that the slaves who were brought over from Africa consisted of a specific group of people from a specific area. That’s why, over here, we think everyone from Africa looks a certain way.

        • Superior Motherload

          Is it Somalis or Somalians?

          • Anonymous

            Ah its Somalis rather that than Somalians.

            – A Somali Lurker

        • veryaveragebrotha

          “so the Somalians and Ethiopians that I personally know that have fine features and curly hair are not black?”

          Fun fact: Genetically ethiopians are about 62% caucasian. It’s actually more of a stretch to call them black, then it is to call them white.

          That being said, their are two distinct things being discussed which need to be differentiated.

          – Genetic/biological race
          – social race.

          Genetic race is pretty definite, but given the fact that very few people are 100% one race, social race is less defined and more of bracket centered around traits specific to each core race but allowing for traits/dna from other races to a point (which is fuzzy and generally varies from region to region.) . In other words, black people (in a social sense) can have some biologically caucasian traits.

          Each race has traits that are confined to their races (hence the term ‘race’ and its associated distinction), and yes one of those distinctions is hair. To put it bluntly, there is nobody who is 100% genetically negroid and has long, wavy silky hair) That is simply not a trait of the negroid race and any black people that have hair like this, have it because of the genetic influences of other races. I believe SFG stated once in a previous post that when she wears her hair a certain way, she passes off as exotic…why is that?

          I also feel there is a little bit of hypocrisy here. I’ve read countless comments about white women trying to be ‘black’ because of them trying to get bigger behinds and fuller lips (traits not native to their race), without ANY rebuttals or uproar, but the minute someone suggests the reverse, we have the rapture…

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

            Good comment. Something to chew on…Especially that last sentence.

          • Justme (the guy)

            @veryaveragebrother- Thank you! I don’t know why ppl were trying to get all pseudo-technical to distract from the real discussion. I agree though, nobody rebuts the “white women tryna be black” claim. So why get all sensitive now?

          • Be On It

            Race is not genetic. Phenotype is. Certain groups, which we label into racial categories, are predisposed to certain pheotypes i.e. physical traits. Which is why black people tend to have darker skin, round(er) features, and more tightly coiled hair.

            • coldsweat3

              @Be On It

              Thank You! This is the point i was getting at when i mentioned features and not genes in the sense of DNA.

              • MsEvaHoney!

                Nice avi! #rawr

            • http://twitter.com/#!/NewYork2VA NY2VA

              Thanks you, Be On ItI!! I was getting a little tight over here with this talk of genetic race. Bad science, y’all…

          • Kema

            “I also feel there is a little bit of hypocrisy here. I?ve read countless comments about white women trying to be ?black? because of them trying to get bigger behinds and fuller lips (traits not native to their race), without ANY rebuttals or uproar, but the minute someone suggests the reverse, we have the rapture?”

            This. Right. Here.

          • Siobhan

            Very smart comment.

            I do this some of this discussion it getting into semantics. Because Africa is the longest inhabited continent, it is home to the most genetic diversity. And while I think it’s important to know that “black” comes in a myriad colors and flavors, talking about African diversity seems a little off-topic, especially since the long history of black people (women and men–lest we forget the era of black men straightening their hair too) has more to do with aspiring to european American beauty images that we were presented with more than the fine features of certain Africans from places most black Americans had only a cursory knowledge of until fairly recently.

          • Qozmic

            I would defy you to define your terms. For example, how does one ‘genetically’ identify as ‘Caucasian’???…. Specifically what alleles are you referring to that produce what specific phenotypes of what genotypes? And how do they become labeled ‘Caucasian’ in any scientifically valid sense….???

        • rnic

          I personally think that with regard to black women and our said perpetuated levels of blackness, most specifically what we chose to do with our hair, whatever works for you, looks good on you, or makes you feel good is what you should be doing with your hair. Any factors that contribute to you getting your hair to this point (i.e. influences from other women’s hair, your significant other’s opinon, or simply curiosity or the desire for a change) is your business. Reason being, the very same people that criticize whatever your doing with your hair will more than likely be trying it out behind closed doors anyway, so why not do YOU? Another point I’d like to make is that, as of late, I feel like this issue of black women and their hair is being taken way out of context and is cause for more discussion and analyzation than is even minimally necessary. Simply put, for most women of this generation, it’s not that deep. YES, when relaxers and straigteneing combs and extensions first came onto the scene, a lot of ethinic women DID want to try these styles out for the purpose of attempting to make thier “not-so-good” hair mimic that of those with “good hair” and MAYBE, at that time, it did have to do with an identity issue……but I just don’t feel that that is the case anymore and I wish that black america could see it for what it is and move on from it. As a young black woman today who has had my own hair down my back, short hair, colored hair, nautral hair, relaxed hair, hot-comb straighted hair, fake hair and a variety of other types of hair styles, I don’t think I’m alone when I say that my trying out each of these styles was not an effort to try and look like the white girl or the mixed girl with the “good hair” that I saw on TV….I did it because I wanted to and because I thought it would look good on me and be fun to try something different…period. Although we as black women may see women of other races and admire their hair, us trying to create that same style for ourselves is not always an issue of low self-esteem or an indication that we are not proud of what we have and I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to read so much into something that’s often nothing more than a personal style choice made for a positive reason.

        • rnic

          I personally think that with regard to black women and our said perpetuated levels of blackness, most specifically what we chose to do with our hair, whatever works for you, looks good on you, or makes you feel good is what you should be doing with your hair. Any factors that contribute to you getting your hair to this point (i.e. influences from other women’s hair, your significant other’s opinon, or simply curiosity or the desire for a change) is your business. Reason being, the very same people that criticize whatever you’re doing with your hair will more than likely be trying it out behind closed doors anyway, so why not do YOU? Another point I’d like to make is that, as of late, I feel like this issue of black women and their hair is being taken way out of context and is cause for more discussion and analyzation than is even minimally necessary. Simply put, for most women of this generation, it’s not that deep. YES, when relaxers and straigteneing combs and extensions first came onto the scene, a lot of ethinic women DID want to try these styles out for the purpose of attempting to make thier “not-so-good” hair mimic that of those with “good hair” and MAYBE, at that time, it did have to do with an identity issue……but I just don’t feel that that is the case anymore and I wish that black america could see it for what it is and move on from it. As a young black woman today who has had my own hair down my back, short hair, colored hair, nautral hair, relaxed hair, hot-comb straighted hair, fake hair and a variety of other types of hair styles, I don’t think I’m alone when I say that my trying out each of these styles was not an effort to try and look like the yt girl or the mixed girl with the “good hair” that I saw on TV….I did it because I wanted to and because I thought it would look good on me and be fun to try something different…period. Although we as black women may see women of other races and admire their hair, us trying to create that same style for ourselves is not always an issue of low self-esteem or an indication that we are not proud of what we have and I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to read so much into something that’s often nothing more than a personal style choice made for a positive reason.

          • Sula

            I personally think that with regard to black women and our said perpetuated levels of blackness, most specifically what we chose to do with our hair, whatever works for you, looks good on you, or makes you feel good is what you should be doing with your hair. Any factors that contribute to you getting your hair to this point (i.e. influences from other women’s hair, your significant other’s opinon, or simply curiosity or the desire for a change) is your business.

            In a bloody nutshell. And no Obsidian, your opinion does NOT matter. :lol:

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “In a bloody nutshell. And no Obsidian, your opinion does NOT matter. ”

              O: What I say isn’t a matter of opinion. :P

              O.

      • Starita34

        *quietly high fives you and runs out quickly before I get in trouble for crashing*

        • Kema

          lol!

      • IsOurChildrenLearning?

        I honestly think that “black” is too diverse of a distinction in this country. It’s not as broad in most other places. They have different terms for different “looks” or hair/color combinations. A person can be very fair, have sandy wavy hair and green eyes but be clumped in the same racial catagory as a very dark skinned person with ebony eyes and kinky hair. African americans are the only group that I know of without any seperate classifications for these characteristics.
        Race has nothing to do with culture, it’s a physical distinction so I think that the problem is that there are just too many physical variables in what constitutes a racially black person in america. On the flip side certain distinctions may cause problems of their own. I guess it’s hard to point out label such differences while keeping a sense of unity amongst the group as a whole.

        • Siobhan

          “Race has nothing to do with culture, it’s a physical distinction so I think that the problem is that there are just too many physical variables in what constitutes a racially black person in america.”

          I would disagree. Race has everything to do with culture because it is socially and culturally created. Most people who study race will tell you it doesn’t really exist except as a social construct.

          And it’s not just black people. The idea of a “white” race is just as much constructed and many people who we know consider white, were not at various points. The Irish, Italians, other Southern and Eastern Europeans were not considered white when they were first arriving in America. There were even instances of Italian men being lynched for looking at “white” women in the South.

          Benjamin Franklin actually thought the only white people in the world were those of Anglo Saxon descent in England and some people from Northern Germany. Even the blond-haired, blue-eyed Swedes (and other Nordic peoples) he considered “tawny.”

          I think the one-drop rule, which lumped us all together has actually been a source of strength for black Americans because it allows us to leverage larger numbers. Whereas places like Brazil struggle to build a cohesion movement around the discrimination they all know exists.

      • Around the Way Girl

        “I just don’t see the big deal if a Black woman wants to straighten her hair.”

        It’s not a big deal to go to the salon occasionally to get your hair done, I don’t think anyone is saying that. But if you think about the amount of money that black women spend not only constantly straightening their hair but- for some- lightening their skin and whatever else, compared to the amount of money black women as a whole are worth, it’s a bit problematic. Not to mention the fact that a lot of women are putting harmful chemicals in their hair to permanently straighten it. No bueno.

      • http://uphereoncloud9.com/ Wu Young, Agent of M.E.

        “Seriously, what is Black in this country?”

        Foxxy, this is a great question. Hell I don’t even know what is supposed to offend me as a black man anymore.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

          As a black woman, I just come here to find out what should be offending me on any given day.

          • Kema

            Make sure you take notes… list grows everyday!

          • Siobhan

            “As a black woman, I just come here to find out what should be offending me on any given day.”

            LOL!

      • LaRisa

        The fact that you just described your natural hair as nappy kinda proves the point. Nappy is not just an adjective for kinky hair…it has a negative tone. The reason black women want to straighten their hair is to look more “mainstream”. I too agree that black women should be able to straighten their hair without the back lash, but we all know the historical reasons for wanting our hair straight.

    • http://www.twitter.com/fiveisthenumber fiveisthenumber

      When you put stuff called yaki and hawaiian silky in your hair, I would think that the phrase “less black” is apropos.

      *searches for the products to make one “less bald”*

    • http://www.twitter.com/fiveisthenumber fiveisthenumber

      The main purpose is to send the Asians to the bank to deposit that hard earned loot we keep giving them!

      Asians got the beauty supplies on lock!

      • WIP

        They got the hair on lock at least. Even the Indian hair. All the major hair distributors I’ve dealth with thus far in the US have been Asian. I’m not sure that really means anything though- they have access to the hair. Indian and Chinese hair- China is as big as India in the game. But it’s simple supply and demand I suppose; they have easy access to the an large supply. It’s not just them though; there are markets for European hair too; it has a different texture than the Chinese hair.

    • http://theatypicallibrarian.wordpress.com/ AtypicalLibrarian

      “Less black” is the name of whatever Toni, Tamar, Towanda, Theresa, Traci, whatever their names use every day to achieve the Michael/LaToya Jackson look.

      The whole point of cosmetics, even cosmetic surgery is to improve one’s looks, but these ladies obviously have it backwards.

    • Qozmic

      Really?…

      Are we really gonna pretend we don’t know what that means? We can acknowledge that we understand somebody’s wack definitions without agreeing with them, yal…

      C’mon now… the only way I’m buying that somebody doesn’t know what this means is if that person has NEVER worn a weave, straightened their hair, or worn a towel on their hair to pretend they had long hair when they were little girls … just like my little sister and all her little friends used to do. (BTW…she used to take it to another level: she’d put aluminum foil on her teeth to pretend she had braces…ZOIKES!!)

      I’m just sayin… We can’t get past these things until we can peel the rock back and look at the ugliness squirmin beneath the surface.

  • IsOurChildrenLearning?

    These products aren’t used to make us “less black” IMO. Black women just have more complicated hair needs, straight up. Black women often use weaves and relaxers as ways to make styling easier. Straight hair doesn’t make you look less black. It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair. People drive me crazy with this foolishness. Why is it that when people tan others don’t say they are trying to look “more black”? If a curly haired jewish curl blow dries her hair straight is she trying to look “less jewish”?

    • http://DamonLThomas.com Monk

      I agree with this statement.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ChristiKennedy Christi

        *concurs*

    • Andi

      “If a curly haired jewish curl blow dries her hair straight is she trying to look “less jewish”?”

      Good question. And if a white brunette dyes her hair blond is she trying to look more anglo? WASPier?

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        “Good question. And if a white brunette dyes her hair blond is she trying to look more anglo? WASPier?”

        O: Answer: YES. Blonde-haired and blue-eyed Anglo Nordic looking Women is still the beauty standard, worldwide.

        O.

        • whyaskquestions

          I agree with Obsidian on this point. Straight blonde hair and blue eyes is still the standard of beauty. And yes, white people are victims of that prejudice standard as well. I don’t like when people use white people who modify their looks to fit the standard to somehow argue that when black women modify their looks for the same purpose it’s as innocent as ‘just not liking nappy hair’. Because it’s not that innocent at all. Subconsciously we are all (women of any race) to the mainstream’s antiquated and racist standards. It makes me sad to hear women of color have this nonchalant attitude towards it.

          • IsOurChildrenLearning?

            “Straight blonde hair and blue eyes is still the standard of beauty.”

            Really? Where? I think that has changed lately. Even amongst white media the standard is a bit “darker”. If blue-eyed women are usually paired with raven hair and thick lips (Jolie, fox). Allure magazine, a beauty mag, recently had a survey of a variety of races. They then compiled the american standard of beauty. Their results were that the blond and blue-eyed standard is a thing of the past.

            http://racked.com/archives/2011/02/15/the-2011-allure-beauty-survey-reveals-64-say-women-of-mixed-race-represent-the-epitome-of-beauty.php

            • IsOurChildrenLearning?

              I’m just sayin, where giving nordic features too much credit in this thread.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                “I’m just sayin, where giving nordic features too much credit in this thread.”

                O: No, we’re not. Marilyn Monroe is still the American beauty standard.

                O.

                • WIP

                  I coulda sworn J. Lo was named the most beautiful person this year by the Caucasian run media…

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the Allure magazine survey; for one thing it asks Women to rate the physical (read: sexual) attractiveness of other Women, something that is sheer folly for anyone who understands HSD. Men determine what is or is not beautiful in a Woman; if you want to know what that is, ask Men.

              Moreover, other aspects of the survey directly contradicts the findings of numerous online dating websites and the like; for example, Allure reports that the younger Male survey takers thought that “Cougars were hot”. However, per OKCupid’s study on the same cohort of Women, they found that by and large young Men simply were not interested in such Women, and thats even after being told that said Women’s chances of NSA sex was on the table, LOL. So again, the Allure survery doesn’t account for much, and I find it quite ironic and amusing that you would attempt to poo poo “junk science” on one hand, by proffering the very same kind of stuff on the other.

              Hmm…

              O.

        • Yoles

          i have read that in actuality blonde hair is desired because blonde=youth and we all know youth=beauty
          children are born with very white like blonde hair called towheads and as you age the blonde gets darker sometimes all the way to almost black. women dye their hair blonde look young and attractive not more white, white women know they are white.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            This is indeed the case.

            O.

          • WIP

            I mentioned this in a post before. It has less to do with socialization and more to do with natural things we can’t help. Blonde hair looks like light around the face. This reflects youth and radiance. This is why people get highlights, use makeup highlight certain features, and use concealer to bring light to darker places on the face. Everyone doesn’t go blonde because at some point it looks unnatural and would have the opposite effect.

        • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

          This is anecdotal bullspit that has absolutely zero relevant data to back it up outside of ‘conventional wisdom’. It isn’t even the standard of beauty in all of Europe, much less the entire world.

      • ThisIshRightHereNinja

        I fought this fight all through law school, clinic and my first year in practice. Yes, I realize that curly-haired white women straighten their hair for court as a means of conforming. However, their racial identity is not tied up in their hair texture as is ours. The message “your hair must be straight in order to be taken seriously in a professional setting” is sent to both Black AND white women. However, that identical message can have divergent meanings depending on the audience. To Aviva, you’re saying…”make a non-permanent cosmetic enhancement to your appearance…which according to what you YOURSELF find attractive, you were prone to make anyway.” To Shaniqua, you’re saying “Because you are Black, the hair God gave you will simply never be good enough.”

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      “These products aren’t used to make us “less black” IMO.”

      O: Your opinion would be wrong. See: Madame CJ Walker.

      “Black women just have more complicated hair needs, straight up.”

      O: No, they have a tougher time achieving a White look.

      “Black women often use weaves and relaxers as ways to make styling easier. ”

      O: Bunk. Nothing is easier than an Afro Puff.

      “Straight hair doesn’t make you look less black.”

      O: Yes, it does.

      “It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair.”

      O: Ie, “less Black”.

      “People drive me crazy with this foolishness.”

      O: The statements made by you in this comment is what should give you cause for concern.

      “Why is it that when people tan others don’t say they are trying to look “more black”?”

      O: Because they’re not.

      “If a curly haired jewish curl blow dries her hair straight is she trying to look “less jewish”?”

      O: YES.

      O.

      • coldsweat3

        @Obsidian

        PREACH!!!!

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

        I’m probably going to regret this but…

        “Why is it that when people tan others don’t say they are trying to look “more black”?”

        O: Because they’re not.

        Then what, pray tell, are they trying to do? Other than get skin cancer, of course.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “Then what, pray tell, are they trying to do? Other than get skin cancer, of course.”

          O: Get a tan.

          Next question?

          O.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

            Why do they want to be tan?

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Why do they want to be tan?”

              O: Because looking like you just walked off the set of Interview With A Vampire just ain’t cool…

              O.

              • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                Meaning looking like you have some color IS cool…And who naturally has color in their skin?…

                Your go.

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “Meaning looking like you have some color IS cool…And who naturally has color in their skin?…

                  Your go.”

                  O: One doesn’t mean the other. Please focus on the topic?

                  Back to you…

                  O.

                  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                    I think it does in this case. And my focus is fine.

                    Perhaps you should adjust yours.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “I think it does in this case.”

                      O: Often what you think is woefully wrongheaded…

                      “And my focus is fine.”

                      O: No, it’s not…

                      “Perhaps you should adjust yours.”

                      O: I already have; it’s on you.

                      O.

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                      Am I supposed to be impressed or intimidated?*

                      *I’m neither, btw.

                    • Justme (the guy)

                      I’m actually with Obsidian all the way on this one. To attempt to answer your question (@TheAnti-Cool) I don’t think white people that tan are trying to look black. I think they are trying to look “golden”. I think most races would be golden (Obama colored) if they could. If you listen to white people talk about why they want to be tanned they’ll mention how they don’t wanna look pale because it looks unhealthy. “Golden” is what they all aim for, not black. Black people seem to want to be that color as well, but since our skin is usually darker than that we can’t use the sun to achieve this goal….hope that sheds some light (no pun intended lol) for you TAC.

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                      @Justme

                      Thank you. Finally an answer that makes some sense.

                    • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                      @Justme,

                      See, I feel ya there. They’re definitely not trying to get as Black as we get, but they definitely want the appearance of having melanin, even if it’s a lighter shade. When Black women straighten their hair, it doesn’t look at all like a White woman’s… it’s just straightened Black hair so why is it automatically assumed that we want to look like them?

                  • Deeds

                    If white woman tanning doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to look less white then why can’t black woman that straighten mean that they just want to straighten their hair and not look “less black”. I mean a black person with straightened hair will not be mistaken for someone that isn’t black.

                    • Kema

                      no but they will look less black…

                    • Juu

                      Ok let me try to clear this situation here and explain clearly why Black women straightening their hair IS NOT like white people/women tanning:
                      – Tanning is natural, you get it from an exposure to the sunlight (or tanning bed mimicking this effect of the sun), while straightening your hair, as far as I know, can’t happen naturally
                      – A tan on white people simply makes them look healthier or wealthier (like they just got back from a vacation), while straightening your hair doesn’t do anything the aura you “exhale”
                      – Besides maybe a few funny looks, there is no big prejudice for white people who look pale. I’m pretty sure very few white people got denied jobs, loans, mortgages or whatever… based on the lack of tan. While BLACKNESS (i.e. west african skin color, hair texture or facial features) had and is still creating prejudices (unfortunately both from White and Black People, look at the state of “black TV” now, which is predominantly light skinned and straightened hair.)

                      All this to say that Black women straightening their hair does come from a subconscious negation of some of the original black/African characteristics, while white people tanning is just another style to try to look good, like wearing blue jeans or any other fashion statement

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “Am I supposed to be impressed or intimidated?*

                    *I’m neither, btw.”

                    O: Good; I wasn’t interested in either.

                    O.

                • Scipio Africanus

                  The point is to look like you have leisure time to be able to sit in the sun on thr beach. 100 years ago the last thing on earth white people wanted was to have a tan – it made them look like common outdoor laborers. It’s not about race.

                  • http://gigs.alvinmilton.com AGDM

                    this is true. They thought the paler the better…

              • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                Man, for someone who likes to instigate back and forth arguments you are, at times, piss poor at fleshing out your points and creating an effective rebuttal. Wordiness aside, you need more people.

                • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                  In O’s case, his silence really does speaks volumes.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “In O’s case, his silence really does speaks volumes.”

                    O: Is that a fact, now? How so? Please explain?

                    O.

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “Man, for someone who likes to instigate back and forth arguments you are, at times, piss poor at fleshing out your points and creating an effective rebuttal. Wordiness aside, you need more people.”

                  O: Does this mean that you can’t engage what I actually said?

                  O.

              • Starita34

                *directs your attention to my avi*
                Eff you Obsidian!
                lol

                I agree with the point that there is a “certain” ideal of beauty though, and it doesn’t stop at “white”. I’d even say it’s not actually white, but more Mediterranean (which is a reason that pale women tan and light skinned black women get so much ish). Dark, olive skin; light eyes that contrast their long silky hair; (like some ladies have pointed out the Indians and Japanese really have that on lock. It’s not called Hawaiian silky for nothing…); firm, high breasts; round, shapely butt; and a thin waist…that’s the ideal. How many white women do you know that look like that? *crickets*

                But white people ARE the majority and thus make a lot of the rules. (Not saying it’s right, stating what I believe to be fact). Which is why straightening your hair for an interview could make things easier for you. Which is why a million products need to be tried to see what works, odds are whoever made the product (read: bunch o’ white folks) didn’t have you in mind. And by “you” I really mean anyone that doesn’t have straight hair. Trust, if my white girlfriend with curly hair posted her hair woes, you’d probably assume she was Black. Curly hair haircare is grossly underrepresented in product research and training of stylists. It’s the minority hair type, see the pattern?

                I don’t know why I got so brave. But there’s my two cents.
                *Prepares for backlash*

                • Yoles

                  i stand with you Starita34….

                  • Starita34

                    *exhales* Thank you Yoles.
                    Y for u not on Twitter? *pouts*

                    • http://www.twitter.com/fiveisthenumber fiveisthenumber

                      not standing with you, but i’m trying to widen the avatar!

                    • Yoles

                      Star i’m too old for twitter… i can barely balance 3 blogs, fb and real life… i’ll leave that for you young folk :D

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “*directs your attention to my avi*”

                  O: Noted

                  “Eff you Obsidian!”

                  O: Quite a few ladies have expressed such a desire, yes…

                  “I agree with the point that there is a “certain” ideal of beauty though, and it doesn’t stop at “white”. I’d even say it’s not actually white, but more Mediterranean (which is a reason that pale women tan and light skinned black women get so much ish).”

                  O: They’re still White. End of.

                  ” Dark, olive skin; light eyes that contrast their long silky hair; (like some ladies have pointed out the Indians and Japanese really have that on lock. It’s not called Hawaiian silky for nothing…); firm, high breasts; round, shapely butt; and a thin waist…that’s the ideal. How many white women do you know that look like that? *crickets*”

                  O: Monica Belluci. Oh, did I mention that she’s White?

                  “But white people ARE the majority and thus make a lot of the rules. (Not saying it’s right, stating what I believe to be fact). Which is why straightening your hair for an interview could make things easier for you.”

                  O: We have data that would seem to support this; see the U of Chicago’s “Black name/White name on Resume” study, for starters…

                  “Which is why a million products need to be tried to see what works, odds are whoever made the product (read: bunch o’ white folks) didn’t have you in mind. And by “you” I really mean anyone that doesn’t have straight hair. Trust, if my white girlfriend with curly hair posted her hair woes, you’d probably assume she was Black. Curly hair haircare is grossly underrepresented in product research and training of stylists. It’s the minority hair type, see the pattern?”

                  O: That even Black companies like Carol’s Daughter aren’t in the business of really catering to Black Women’s hair, yes, I see a pattern indeed…

                  “I don’t know why I got so brave. But there’s my two cents.
                  *Prepares for backlash*”

                  O: No, just a light paddling this time will suffice for you…

                  O.

                  • Sula

                    O: Quite a few ladies have expressed such a desire, yes…

                    There must have been locked up in a harem for 40 years prior to having such a desire. :lol:

                    Non mais oh, faut pas charrier non plus hein!
                    (annoyance is better conveyed in one’s first language. Sorry folks. :))

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “There must have been locked up in a harem for 40 years prior to having such a desire. ”

                      O: Anything’s possible…

                      “Non mais oh, faut pas charrier non plus hein!
                      (annoyance is better conveyed in one’s first language. Sorry folks. )”

                      O: When in America, please speak English…

                      O.

                    • Sula

                      @Obsidian,

                      O: When in America, please speak English…

                      Is that all you have? So surprising! :lol:

                      p.s: By the way, as an American, you should know that the United States of America does not have an official language, right? But you should know that, you’re Obsidian.

                      p.p.s: Last I heard, the internet is location free… So being in America is not a given.

                      but I didn’t expect much more from you. :lol:

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “Is that all you have? So surprising!”

                      O: There are times when Less, is More.

                      “p.s: By the way, as an American, you should know that the United States of America does not have an official language, right?”

                      O: Yes, I am aware of this fact. Fun question: what is the language the USA conducts business in?

                      “But you should know that, you’re Obsidian.”

                      O: THE Obsidian to you, madam.

                      “p.p.s: Last I heard, the internet is location free… So being in America is not a given.”

                      O: Participating in an American forum like VSB, where the lingua franca is ENGLISH, is.

                      You were saying?

                      O.

                      but I didn’t expect much more from you.

                    • Sula

                      Fun question: what is the language the USA conducts business in?

                      And I was conducting business?

                      Besides, my Taqueria lady will beg to differ. She does not speak english and conducts her business as such, thank you very much. :)

                  • Starita34

                    “O: They’re still White. End of.”
                    Sometimes I forget that anything “not Black” is “white” because that’s so ignorant.

                    “O: Monica Belluci. Oh, did I mention that she’s White?”
                    Oh! You found ONE example! Well forget my whole argument then! If there’s ONE whole example! (Oh and she’s Mediterranean)

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “Oh! You found ONE example! Well forget my whole argument then! If there’s ONE whole example! (Oh and she’s Mediterranean)”

                      O: Do you have any examples? By all means, please offer them. In the meantime though, I don’t think anyone would mistake Alek Wek for Monica Belluci…

                      O.

                  • Starita34

                    “O: They’re still White. End of.”
                    Sometimes I forget that anything “not Black” is “white” because that’s so ignorant.

                    “O: Monica Belluci. Oh, did I mention that she’s White?”
                    Oh! You found ONE example! Well forget my whole argument then! If there’s ONE whole example! (Oh and she’s Mediterranean, kinda like I said in my example -_-)

                • http://www.twitter.com/ChristiKennedy Christi

                  Good comments @Starita34

                • http://theatypicallibrarian.wordpress.com/ AtypicalLibrarian

                  Well said, Starita. I went to a forum titled “I Am Not My Hair” a few months back because I just transitioned to natural hair (no political, social, or life affirming reason) and I wanted to observe the conversation. The panel consisted of women from 18 – mid 50s of different races/ethnicities. As each woman introduced herself, she gave a brief overview of her “hairstory.” Every woman on the panel had issues with her hair from the 18 year-old Black/Mexican woman who had recently cut her shoulder length hair because it was too long and too thick, to the white, to the 20 something White woman who hated her uber blond hair because of all the unwanted attention it garnered her as a child (she was shy). Of course there were Black women (one was locked) on the panel with Black woman hair problems.

                  The person that stood out to me was a bald Asian man in the audience who said he didn’t feel the freedom to shave his head until moving to the U.S. because in his culture a full head of well maintained shiny, black hair for men was the norm.

                  I got so far off on a tangent that I forgot my original point, but go on girl! Be brave and you ain’t said nothing but the truth re:Hawaiian Silky–my formerroomate ( she’s Hawaiian) got considerable back lash from her friends and family when she cut her hair into a cute pixie cut!

                  I guess I’m just saying we’ve all got our issues and anyone who tries to pretend that generalized standards of beauty (whatever they may be) don’t exist need to be for real.

                  • Starita34

                    @Christi
                    @AtypicalLibrarian
                    Thank you ladies :-)

            • coldsweat3

              Re: “Why do they want to be tan?”

              Tanning has gone in and out of style though just as im sure collagen lips for white folks will die out. One reason folks also tan though is to actually prevent severe sunburning later on.

              • ab

                That doesn’t make any damn sense and you know it.

                The reason they tan is because even they acknowledge that darker skin looks healthier, it gives the illusion of health and makes them look better.
                Keep sipping the cool aid dude!

                • coldsweat3

                  @ab

                  What doesnt make any damn sense? The fact that tanning has gone in and out of style? Please google. uppercrust white folks use to pride being pale it meant they didnt have to work outside.

                  As far as the tan yes i agree people do tan for appearance purposes i dont think i was working in absolutes by using the phrase “one reason.” I also didnt state that when people get base tans they automatically prevent all forms of sunburn. It provides a little bit of time for increased exposure to the sun.

                  • ab

                    no… don’t weasel out of your own words
                    ‘One reason folks also tan though is to actually prevent severe sunburning later on.’

                    Gosh, I have never read a man so invested in making black women feel worthless that he is so willing to provide excuses for white people. You really are ignorant and extremely backwards

                    • coldsweat3

                      re: , I have never read a man so invested in making black women feel worthless

                      You got all of that from me saying white folks go tanning to prevent extreme sunburning. You really are ignorant and extremely backwards.

                  • ab

                    at some point, you could try defending your own words instead of going off on a tangent when your are directly quoted.

                    It seems you can’t. So, stop talking. Seriously dude. it makes you sound like a silly boy.

          • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

            *takes out monocle* Which makes them less white, literally.

          • DQ

            And the collagen lips?

            Booty pops?

            Who are they trying to look like then?

            • hehe

              collagen lips = angelina jolie

              booty pads= JLo

              Remember all that became popular when a non-black person had it

              • DQ

                So when white women augment or modify they are emulating some celebrity that they admire. Are black women afforded this consideration as well? If they augment or modify can it be that they are just emulating some celebrity that they admire? Open question to anyone.

                • Around the Way Girl

                  I’m sure this happens, but in a majority of cases it’s about more than that.

                  • DQ

                    True, but Jherri Curls (IMO) become popular not because we hated our hair but because we admired Michael Jackson. The flat top (or box) became popular because people like Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Kool G. Rap, and Kid N Play wore it. We didn’t go for flat tops because we hated our natural round hair growth. Bald heads became popular not because we hated our hair but because we admired Michael Jordan. Braids became popular not because we hated our hair but because D’Angelo and Iverson made that $h!t look cool. Nowadays it’s the the faux-hawk. Diddy, Kanye, and a host of others have made it popular.

                    Is it so far fetched to believe that black women might want emulate their idols too? If a chick wants to emulate Beyonce is she consciously saying she hates herself, or is it that she just admires Beyonce?

                    I know plenty of white kids that dyed their hair with peroxide because they wanted to emulate Eminem. So if we are saying that J. Lo made hips popular, and Angelina Jolie made lips popular, why can’t celebrities make certain styles popular for us? Why does self-hatred have to be the root cause?

        • http://wewereninjas.wordpress.com/ Jay

          “Why is it that when people tan others don’t say they are trying to look “more black”?”

          O: Because they’re not.

          “If a curly haired jewish curl blow dries her hair straight is she trying to look “less jewish”?”

          O: YES.

          What kind of logic is this??

          So, according to O. White people attempting to alter their features are just objectively beautifyiing, because they don’t want to look like “vampires”. But black people beautifying are trying to look whiter. According to you, any jewish woman straightening her hair wants to look “less Jewish”. Firstly O, you speak in absolutes, and nothing in this argument… ANY ARGUMENT is absolute. I’m starting to get the idea that O is just f*cking with us the way that Stephen Colbert pretends to be a right wing asshole to make fun of REAL right wing assholes. Not pretending to know your politics, just making a comparison.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            Hi Jay,
            Replies below:

            “So, according to O. White people attempting to alter their features are just objectively beautifyiing, because they don’t want to look like “vampires”. But black people beautifying are trying to look whiter. According to you, any jewish woman straightening her hair wants to look “less Jewish”. Firstly O, you speak in absolutes, and nothing in this argument… ANY ARGUMENT is absolute. I’m starting to get the idea that O is just f*cking with us the way that Stephen Colbert pretends to be a right wing asshole to make fun of REAL right wing assholes. Not pretending to know your politics, just making a comparison.”

            O: LOL. I like Colbert, but no, I’m not “channeling” him here. What I am simply saying is that what Kanazawa said wasn’t at all that far off from the truth, and the supreme irony coming out of this whole episode is that if was really a crank, there wouldn’t be this enormous reaction by Sistas virtually worldwide, to say nothing of what Champ noted in his post, about the warp speed velocity of Sistas – again, WORLDWIDE – to mobilize in an effort to have Kanazawa enter into early retirement. That tells me that the Man’s words hit a raw nerve. Instead of trying to get rid of the messenger, perhaps it might behoove Sistas to consider the message itself? Again, for the gazillionith time: what if Kanazawa had said the same thing about short or Asian Men? Would we even be talking about this? I think we all know the answer to that one; and in that Kanazawa himself is an evolutionary psychologist, perhaps we might consider that model to ask WHY the responses and reactions would indeed be so very different (read: nobody would care, least of Sistas themselves, many of whom have made it quite clear that height in a Man is a must-have, period fullstop) in the first place.

            This is a fascinating case study in Human psychology…

            O.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              Just to follow up on my previous comment, consider this…

              As Champ noted, it is fascinating to witness the massive moblization of Sistas on BOTH sides of the Atlantic in an effort to kill the messenger, when it is clear that those same Sistas don’t seem to be all that motivated in addressing the obesity issue, something Kanazawa actually addressed in his paper. Please note, this isn’t a matter of opinion, but of documented FACT, that Sistas are indeed heavier than other groups of Women in the USA (I’m an not certain wrt the UK) and that there ARE indeed REAL health concerns connected thereto. Current First Lady Michelle Obama herself recognizes this problem insofar as America’s youth are concerned, particularly as it relates to Black youth, who are raised by…wait for it…

              Black Women. So, I suppose the same international cabal who is trying to have Kanazawa unseated from his position at LSE should then turn their sights on the First Lady too, right?

              I mean, where does this kind of insanity stop?

              O.

        • Siobhan

          “Then what, pray tell, are they trying to do? Other than get skin cancer, of course.”

          One of the things that consistently connotes beauty across cultures is what makes you appear wealthy/of a higher status.

          When very pale skin was the rage in Europe it was largely because it meant you were wealthy enough not to have to work in the sun. This is still the case in East and South Asia, and depending on where you live you’re probably seen the other Chinese women with long gloves and parasols in the summer.

          Tan skin now has the connotation of being wealthy enough to go on vacation. People who have leisure time can tan (in the non-farmer tan sort of way).

      • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

        So… depending on the MANY hair styles a white girl could rock…which ones would make her less white. Or better yet, what is the ONE uniform white style?

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “So… depending on the MANY hair styles a white girl could rock…which ones would make her less white.”

          O: Any that does NOT require a Sista to destroy her hair (among other things; please review Chris Rock’s documentary on the topic).

          “Or better yet, what is the ONE uniform white style?”

          O: The opposite of natural Black hair.

          O.

          • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

            Nope, didn’t mean sistas. I meant white women. They have different hairstyles that differentiates from the way it looks when they just wash and go. They straighten, they curl, they add extensions. Are they then
            “less white?”

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Nope, didn’t mean sistas. I meant white women. They have different hairstyles that differentiates from the way it looks when they just wash and go. They straighten, they curl, they add extensions. Are they then
              “less white?””

              O: This is a ridiculous question. The question is whether Black Women are seen as more or less physically attractive, and the answer is no, in aggregate. The reason is because of their physical characteristics do not align with what is considered to be beautiful in the world. It’s really as simple as that.

              O.

              • DQ

                It actually seems like a legitimate question to me.

                • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                  He thinks anything is ridiculous if his less than nubile mind finds any fault with it.

                  • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    Man, I’ve seen right throught the ish every since it started… lol

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                      Pretty much…

                  • DQ

                    I don’t know that I necessarily agree with that, but I will say that if you’re following this thread and reading the competing logical arguments, there was nothing (IMO) improper or out of scope of that question.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “He thinks anything is ridiculous if his less than nubile mind finds any fault with it.”

                    O: No; ad hominem isn’t a legitimate form of argument, is all.

                    Wanna try again?

                    O.

                • Andi

                  Cuz it is…

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “It actually seems like a legitimate question to me.”

                  O: Really? How so? Please explain?

                  O.

                  • DQ

                    More than a few times in this thread people have suggested that augmentations made by black women are indications of their self-hatred and/or their attempts to look less black.

                    In my mind’s eye, Cheekie is asking does this standard apply to everyone else? Does augmentation / modification signify self-hatred and a desire to look less like one’s race? Because it appears to be a standard ONLY applied to black women.

                    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                      Of course not. Because ONLY black women should hate themselves.

                    • Justme (the guy)

                      @DQ- I’m starting to sense a little laziness from Obsidian in answering these valid questions that you and others have posed. I’ll attempt to answer them for you.

                      As far as white women doing things to alter their hair I think there are three important facts that you have to consider.

                      1) 99.999% of all people, particularly women would change at least one thing about their physical appearence if they could. That has nothing to do with race. We all feel as though we have an imperfection, or two, or 5. So of course white women want to do something to change their hair, seeing as how men (and other women) consistently rank hair as one of the top 3 indicators of beauty in a woman.

                      2) Their is a hierarchy among white women of beauty. Blond hair is still the most desirable for them. Recessive eye colors are still considered the cream of the crop in all races. And extremely pale skin is seen as less healthy. Also curly hair on a European is considered less attractive than straight. While curly hair on a black woman is seen as exotic (which always equals brownie points to black people). So curly hair is a good thing to blacks (better than nappy in their eyes) and a negative to whites (must be part Jewish or something else that’s not Anglo).

                      3) Often times when people alter their look it’s because they’ve been looking at the same person in the mirror for decades on end. We all want to switch it up a little bit, and hair and skintone are very noticeable features, so of course we would alter those first. So i don’t think altering your look ALWAYS equates to not finding your natural look beautiful, however in black women’s case, most of them either won’t EVER go with their natural look, or will only do so for a very short experimental phase. I realize that job interviews etc; complicate the issue even more, so we can’t just write it off as self-hate entirely, but we all know “black is beautiful” is usually a disingenuous mantra to many (if not most) black people…Go ahead and berate me, I’m just calling it like I’ve been seeing it for 20 plus years

                    • DQ

                      @Justme (the guy)
                      I’m not going to berate you but I’m also not going to agree. My point of contention is that I believe your 1st point is why we should not conclude that self-hatred is THE motivator for why black women choose the beauty regiments they do.

                      That some black women may never go natural doesn’t bother me, insisting that we ascribe ONE reason why that is does… especially when a number of people have reasons that have everything to do with maintenance or personal choice. I don’t deny that some black women do have image issues, but we can’t force or narrow interpretations onto everyone. Aside from it being unfair it is logically untenable.

                    • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                      @DQ,

                      “That some black women may never go natural doesn’t bother me, insisting that we ascribe ONE reason why that is does… especially when a number of people have reasons that have everything to do with maintenance or personal choice. I don’t deny that some black women do have image issues, but we can’t force or narrow interpretations onto everyone. Aside from it being unfair it is logically untenable.”

                      And Bingo was his name-o.

              • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                Nah, just applying your same logic (black
                women that change their hair from the way it naturally grows
                automatically means they are less black) to
                that of white women who do the same thing to their hair. You avoiding the question is hilarious, considering you admonish people for
                doing the same to you. Next time, make sure
                you don’t feel obligated to have your questions answered if can’t
                answer mine.

                Point is, your reasoning up there (nothing easier than
                an Afro puff) is a ridiculous and ignorant assumption that all Black women’s hair is the same, reacts to the same
                things, and can maintain the same hairstyles.

                • Yoles

                  exactly

                • Starita34

                  “Point is, your reasoning up there (nothing easier than
                  an Afro puff) is a ridiculous and ignorant assumption that all Black women’s hair is the same, reacts to the same
                  things, and can maintain the same hairstyles.”

                  !!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  Too much like right. TOO much Cheekie.

                • CaribbeanQueen

                  yes yes and YES.
                  so on point Cheekie

                • Andi

                  +1

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “Nah, just applying your same logic (black
                  women that change their hair from the way it naturally grows
                  automatically means they are less black) ”

                  O: They are.

                  “to
                  that of white women who do the same thing to their hair.”

                  O: The discussion isn’t about White Women and what they do or don’t do to their hair. This is a non-sequitur.

                  “You avoiding the question is hilarious, considering you admonish people for doing the same to you. Next time, make sure
                  you don’t feel obligated to have your questions answered if can’t
                  answer mine.”

                  O: The sheer intensity of defensiveness in your remarks is an accurate reflection of the worldwide Sistahood response to Kanazawa, hence proving that he was correct in his researches.

                  “Point is, your reasoning up there (nothing easier than
                  an Afro puff) is a ridiculous and ignorant assumption that all Black women’s hair is the same, reacts to the same
                  things, and can maintain the same hairstyles.”

                  O: Rubbish. I made no such claim (” that all Black women’s hair is the same”); I simply said that maintaining an Afro Puff is easier to maintain than getting one’s hair scorched with chemicals and straightening combs.

                  O.

                  • Around the Way Girl

                    “The sheer intensity of defensiveness in your remarks is an accurate reflection of the worldwide Sistahood response to Kanazawa, hence proving that he was correct in his researches.”

                    LOL. There was a time when I thought you were really smart…

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “LOL. There was a time when I thought you were really smart…”

                      O: Shall I breakout the UGT?

                      O.

                  • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    “O: The discussion isn’t about White Women and what they do or don’t do to their hair. This is a non-sequitur.”

                    You made comparisons with other cultures to defend your arguments as well, so what’s your point?

                    “O: The sheer intensity of defensiveness in your remarks is an accurate reflection of the worldwide Sistahood response to Kanazawa, hence proving that he was correct in his researches.”

                    Ah, so asking you to answer my question instead of going off on some tangent is being defensive? Basically, the same thing you always require of folks that argue with you? Perfect.

                    “O: Rubbish. I made no such claim (” that all Black women’s hair is the same”); I simply said that maintaining an Afro Puff is easier to maintain than getting one’s hair scorched with chemicals and straightening combs.”

                    You did it again. Not all Black women have or can maintain afro puffs.

                    Basically, you’re arguing about something you can’t completely understand because you don’t HAVE it.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “You made comparisons with other cultures to defend your arguments as well, so what’s your point?”

                      O: ??? I have? Where? Please point this out to me? What I said was that Kanazawa CAN’T BE A RACIST if he is saying that Black Men are considered the most sexually attractive Men by Women. Please address this?

                      “Ah, so asking you to answer my question instead of going off on some tangent is being defensive? Basically, the same thing you always require of folks that argue with you? Perfect.”

                      O: See above.

                      “O: Rubbish. I made no such claim (” that all Black women’s hair is the same”); I simply said that maintaining an Afro Puff is easier to maintain than getting one’s hair scorched with chemicals and straightening combs.”

                      “You did it again. Not all Black women have or can maintain afro puffs.”

                      O: Alright, I will concede the point, that all Black Womens’ hair isn’t the same. So what? What does that have to do with the FACT that Black Women in America alone, spend upwards of HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS on hair care products – the vast majority of which have to do with chemically altering their hair? Please explain?

                      “Basically, you’re arguing about something you can’t completely understand because you don’t HAVE it.”

                      O: Do I need to be a Black Woman, to see what’s going on here?

                      O.

                • http://www.uniquelydynamic.com Ms. Johnson

                  I very rarely comment, however O, this has to be the most ignorant and useless thread of conversation I have seen in a while. I am an AA Female who’s hair wouldn’t see any parts of an afro puff if I clicked my heels three times and wished it like Dorothy wished to go home. Cheekie said it best how is it that I am less something, but when another race does the same exact thing they are not. Starita nailed it on the head. Millions have been spent on researching how to straighten and keep hair straight because that’s what the majority of people in the world have…straight hair…now if someone spend the same amount on my left side of the head is curly and right side of the head is wavvy hair, then I would rock my Half n Half hair all day long. However, until that happens, I will happily wash and condition my hair with Moroccan Oil and Bio Silk Products, blow dry it with Kenra Products, and flat iron the shit out of it as often as I see fit!

                  Less Black…Less Natural… whatever The Champ wants to call it, is a poor choice of words. However, at the same time I do understand his $500 billion question and believe he is right in asking. With everything you do, do it in moderation. We as AA Women spend an incredible amount of money on products to “enhance” our beauty, but if we are really honest with ourselves, we are attempting to change what assets we were given to work with. There was a magazine article, a new movie, music video, or blog that told us to try such and such to get such and such results, and we went right to the salon whether hair or nails and tried it. Does that make us less black, not necessarily, but it does make us less financially smart. As a people, I just wholly believe that we are not in a position to continue to let that happen.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “Less Black…Less Natural… whatever The Champ wants to call it, is a poor choice of words. However, at the same time I do understand his $500 billion question and believe he is right in asking. With everything you do, do it in moderation. We as AA Women spend an incredible amount of money on products to “enhance” our beauty, but if we are really honest with ourselves, we are attempting to change what assets we were given to work with. There was a magazine article, a new movie, music video, or blog that told us to try such and such to get such and such results, and we went right to the salon whether hair or nails and tried it. Does that make us less black, not necessarily, but it does make us less financially smart. As a people, I just wholly believe that we are not in a position to continue to let that happen.”

                    Ms. Johnson,
                    The second part of your comment, reposted above, completely conflicts with the first part. Both cannot be true – at the least, both have a hard time sharing centerstage. It just seems to me that Sistas have more problems along these lines that they’re willing to admit. Get over it, everybody can’t be Number One, and get on with it, is what I say.

                    O.

                • http://alexiswhite.com Alexis

                  Well there cheekie you said so I guess I don’t have to.

                • Aisha

                  “Point is, your reasoning up there (nothing easier than

                  an Afro puff) is a ridiculous and ignorant assumption that all Black women’s hair is the same, reacts to the same

                  things, and can maintain the same hairstyles.”

                  !!!!!!!! Thank you, all black women look alike now?? I think he ignored the comment by the girl from Uganda, but it’s clear that even “pure” Africans vary in shade & hair texture.

                • Deeds

                  Thank You!!

                • keisha brown

                  Point is, your reasoning up there (nothing easier than
                  an Afro puff) is a ridiculous and ignorant assumption that all Black women’s hair is the same, reacts to the same
                  things, and can maintain the same hairstyles.

                  THIS.
                  I was gonna say it..but lady cheeks said it for me.
                  Until you have the life, live the life and possess all the qualities of a black woman, dont tell me what is and isnt easier.
                  Please and thanks.
                  Management.

                  *goes back to bed*

                  • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    “Until you have the life, live the life and possess all the qualities of a black woman, dont tell me what is and isnt easier.”

                    It’s very reminiscent of the oppressor telling the oppressed what to get offended by. Like, that just can’t happen. In this world or the next. Bye.

          • IsOurChildrenLearning?

            White women “destroy” their hair with bleach, blow-dryers, and flat-irons. Women of EVERY race do crazy things in the name of beauty

            • Yoles

              and this “Women of EVERY race do crazy things in the name of beauty”

              is the whole thing in one sentence…. thank you and good night

              • Starita34

                WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
                *praise dances to the bed*

                You’ll be hard pressed to find many “natural” white women! HARD. PRESSED, I say. Of course I am, but well, I’m special, my mother told me so! *brushes shoulders off*

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “White women “destroy” their hair with bleach, blow-dryers, and flat-irons. Women of EVERY race do crazy things in the name of beauty”

              O: The discussion isn’t about what White Women do or don’t do to their hair. Please focus like a laserbeam on the actual topic…

              O.

              • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                Please don’t act like you haven’t made comparisons to other things as well. Just answer the question. This is becoming laughable at this point. lol

                • Around the Way Girl

                  Yeah, I gave up on this guy back during the original “Black Women, You Ugly” post. That’s when I realized he’s pretty much full of sh!t and not really all that logical. I think he’s coming here arguing non-sense just to entertain himself.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “Yeah, I gave up on this guy back during the original “Black Women, You Ugly” post. That’s when I realized he’s pretty much full of sh!t and not really all that logical. I think he’s coming here arguing non-sense just to entertain himself.”

                    O: On the original post on this topic, I registered a detail series of remarks laying out why and how I thought Kanazawa was more right than wrong, and to date, no one, including you, has actually addressed what I’ve actually said. Instead, all manner of red herrings, strawmen and non-sequiturs are trotted out. If anyone’s full of it, especially in light of the parting shots Champ laidout in his posts it is you Sistas – not I.

                    Please feel free to actually what I said on the previous post anytime you are ready… :)

                    O.

                    • Around the Way Girl

                      Oh I kept up with you, but you were still responding at like 10-11p.m. and I was completely over it by then. On to something else. And no, I will not go back and respond to your responses now. I did peep them, though, and got a kick out of how in your attempts to pick apart what I was saying, you actually started unintentionally picking apart your own statements. It was kind of funny, and I could have given it to you if I felt like it (and thought you would see it). But that was when I decided it was useless to engage such a silly back and forth with you. I enjoy a good challenging debate as much as you do, but it has to actually be challenging. The only thing I find challenging about discourse with you is finding the time to respond to your paragraphs upon paragraphs of BS at all hours of the day.

                      You really should just admit that you don’t know everything, and that a lot of your assertions come from your own opinions and personal experiences. It’s okay, there doesn’t always have to be a right or wrong answer. But that type of humility seems beyond you. So whatever, it’s cool :) Have fun doing what you do.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “Oh I kept up with you, but you were still responding at like 10-11p.m. and I was completely over it by then. On to something else.”

                      O: I didn’t ask if you “kept up with me” or if you had “moved onto something else” – I asked if you had actually engaged the points I raised in my initial remarks on the Kanazawa controversey the other day, and the answer is NO, you didn’t and to date, you haven’t.

                      “And no, I will not go back and respond to your responses now.”

                      O: At least you’re being consistent…

                      “I did peep them, though, and got a kick out of how in your attempts to pick apart what I was saying, you actually started unintentionally picking apart your own statements.”

                      O: How so? Please explain?

                      “It was kind of funny, and I could have given it to you if I felt like it (and thought you would see it). But that was when I decided it was useless to engage such a silly back and forth with you. I enjoy a good challenging debate as much as you do, but it has to actually be challenging. The only thing I find challenging about discourse with you is finding the time to respond to your paragraphs upon paragraphs of BS at all hours of the day.”

                      O: Ah. More ad hominem. Refreshing!

                      “You really should just admit that you don’t know everything, and that a lot of your assertions come from your own opinions and personal experiences. It’s okay, there doesn’t always have to be a right or wrong answer. But that type of humility seems beyond you. So whatever, it’s cool Have fun doing what you do.”

                      O: Oh, I shall! Please know that to this day, you have no idea what my “personal opinions” are. But if you wanna know, all you need do is ask…

                      O.

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “Please don’t act like you haven’t made comparisons to other things as well. Just answer the question. This is becoming laughable at this point. lol”

                  O: When have I done this as it pertains to the current topic under examination? Please explain?

                  O.

                  • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    “O: When have I done this as it pertains to the current topic under examination? Please explain?”

                    I answered a very valid question. You have yet to answer it. You just threw out “non-sequitur.” Which is invalid especially considering the MAIN point of the post is comparing us to Eurocentric beauty, and when I make the same comparison, you say it’s off-topic? Oh.

                    Again, stop requiring others to do to your comments what you can’t do to theirs. Merci.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “I answered a very valid question. You have yet to answer it. You just threw out “non-sequitur.” Which is invalid especially considering the MAIN point of the post is comparing us to Eurocentric beauty, and when I make the same comparison, you say it’s off-topic? Oh.”

                      O: I am asking you when I have supposedly done that which i am taking you to task for, not whether you have answerered my questions or not. Oh.

                      “Again, stop requiring others to do to your comments what you can’t do to theirs. Merci.”

                      O: Again: please show me how and where I have done this? Given that I think it’s fair to say that I am a somewhat prolific commenter, such damning evidence shouldn’t be too hard to find, yes?

                      Oh, and you’re welcome.:)

                      O.

                    • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                      “O: I am asking you when I have supposedly done that which i am taking you to task for, not whether you have answerered my questions or not. Oh.”

                      I compared Black women to white women which is a main component of the post and what you have done as well. I’m not seeing how you’re missing this seeing as how you’re an active part of the conversation.

                      “O: Again: please show me how and where I have done this? Given that I think it’s fair to say that I am a somewhat prolific commenter, such damning evidence shouldn’t be too hard to find, yes? ”

                      Not at all. I asked a valid question, you responded that it was a ridiculous question instead of answering it. Had I done the same, you would’ve responded with your predictable “you’re avoiding what I have stated” drivel. You have already done so to many people in this very thread. Should I quote that as well? I shouldn’t have to seeing as how it’s a standard part of your “argument tactic.” But, lemme know…

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “O: I am asking you when I have supposedly done that which i am taking you to task for, not whether you have answerered my questions or not. Oh.”

                      “I compared Black women to white women which is a main component of the post and what you have done as well. I’m not seeing how you’re missing this seeing as how you’re an active part of the conversation.”

                      O: Oh, OK, I see now. Well, yes, that was the point of the post in that sense. But you and others saying “but White Women do it too!” really isn’t a valid counter argument, because one, they are not the topic under examination, and two, it would make sense for them not to do what the “Black Like Me” and “Watermelon Man” stories/experiments were about. THAT, would be “aping a Black look” – NOT tanning one’s skin.

                      “O: Again: please show me how and where I have done this? Given that I think it’s fair to say that I am a somewhat prolific commenter, such damning evidence shouldn’t be too hard to find, yes? ”

                      “Not at all. I asked a valid question, you responded that it was a ridiculous question instead of answering it. Had I done the same, you would’ve responded with your predictable “you’re avoiding what I have stated” drivel. You have already done so to many people in this very thread. Should I quote that as well? I shouldn’t have to seeing as how it’s a standard part of your “argument tactic.” But, lemme know…”

                      O: I await patiently for the evidence. Proceed…

                      O.

                    • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                      “because one, they are not the topic under examination, and two, it would make sense for them not to do what the “Black Like Me” and “Watermelon Man” stories/experiments were about. THAT, would be “aping a Black look” – NOT tanning one’s skin. ”

                      They are very much the topic of examination. At least the subtopic. If you’re gonna compare, you have to compare ALL things, not just the ones you think will fit your argument. And if tanning one skin can’t be deemed as “trying be Black” then “straightening hair” can’t be deemed as “trying to be White” (especially since they’re not the only ones who have natural straight hair AND not all of them have naturally straight hair.)

                      “O: I await patiently for the evidence. Proceed…”

                      *facepalm* Girl, bye. I’m just gonna liken this “convenient memory” to you posting 50-leven comments on today’s post…Here:

                      http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/black-woman-self-esteem/#comment-286587

            • hehe

              yea but they usually don’t destroy their kids hair at a young as like most Black do.

          • http://theatypicallibrarian.wordpress.com/ AtypicalLibrarian

            It took me a minute to realize what was going on with this particular Q & A, but now I see that you didn’t in fact answer Cheekie’s question. Seemed to be a bit of a communication breakdown, but for shiggles, I’ll offer up a hairstyle to answer Ms. Cheekie’s question:

            “So… depending on the MANY hair styles a white girl could rock…which ones would make her less white.”

            The cornrows/twists in the top with hair flowing in the back/in a ponytail/in an updo that started in the late nineties and is dying a slow death was a considerably “black” style that might have made White women look “less white.” Actually anything involving cornrows or twists might fit the criteria. Exhibit A

            • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

              Yes, the cornrow hairstyle was deemed as “more Black”, but my main point in answering that question is that Black women aren’t the only ones who alter their hair. Thus, self-hatred can’t be the only reason why Black women do different things with their hair. AND, beyond that… Black women don’t have a uniform hair texture, natural or not.

              • http://theatypicallibrarian.wordpress.com/ AtypicalLibrarian

                I get that. I think that self-hatred, while an issue, is usually has the least to do with how we style our hair. I mean, we all wear clothes, right? And doing so doesn’t mean we have body image issues, it just means that we live in a society where wearing clothes is socially acceptable. Of course my analogy is apples and oranges because if the legal issues involved (I mean wearing clothes isn’t really an option when you’re in public).

                I know someone who does not believe in wearing deodorant or shaving because of cultural/religious beliefs. Talk about being “natural”! She would rather use plug-ins in her shared office than invest in Degree.

                I fully agree that self-hatred isn’t the only reason Black women alter their hair. I love myself, but you’ll never catch me naked or without deodorant! :)

        • Starita34

          Cheekie: “Or better yet, what is the ONE uniform white style?”

          Pony tail, duh ;-)

          • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

            LOL, of course, Star. *snicker*

      • http://www.twitter.com/ChristiKennedy Christi

        I disagree, O!

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          How so? Please explain?

          O.

        • Yoles

          me 2….. i disagree that straight hair makes someone look less black

          • Vanity in Peril

            I don’t think white people that tan want to be black. Brazilian, maybe. :) Look at Jersey Shore… they don’t want nor respect black people. I disagree that black women that straighten their hair look less black but I will say that there is a big diff between a white woman with brown hair frying and dying her hair blonde (or half a country’s worth of them doing it for that matter) and black people being subliminally and sometimes not too subliminally told that what grows out their head (even just a new growth half an inch of it) must be hidden at all times. That’s how having a relaxer back in the day made me feel and I’m not saying that’s everyone’s exp but enough of us feel/felt the same way. Every race has their neurosis but the process of slapping on a perm every time a curly q sprouted from my head or running for cover from rain felt so… not natural. Like an immigrant trying to hide their accent, I felt like I was betraying myself. For the record, I don’t care what this scientist says. His name is Kanazawa? That’s damn near Kwanzaa, you can’t tell me he’s for real.

            • Deeds

              I agree with this. When I went natural it was relieving not worrying about any naps and nice to actuall like the tightly coiled hair growing out of my hair. I can’t imagine myself going back. However, like you said, when I did have a relaxer I def. wasn’t trying to be less black. I was always proud to be black, but I wasn’t in love with my natural hair texture either.

              • Siobhan

                “I was always proud to be black, but I wasn’t in love with my natural hair texture either.”

                “the process of slapping on a perm every time a curly q sprouted from my head or running for cover from rain felt so… not natural. Like an immigrant trying to hide their accent, I felt like I was betraying myself.”

                This, I think, is the crux of it and I think you both hit the nail on the head. I felt the same way before I stopped relaxing. When I cut out the relaxer, I really had no idea what my hair would look like, since I’d only seen it in the form of new growth for years.

                We can talk about individual choice of styles all we like, but when there is an overwhelming preference/pattern to hide our natural hair, that’s no longer individual. It’s societal and it means something.

                It doesn’t have to mean that every woman with a weave or a relaxer is self-hating, or even thinking about her hair most of the day. But I do think that too many black women feel that what grows on their head doesn’t make them pretty.

            • Justme (the guy)

              THANK YOU VanityinPeril! I’m glad to see a black woman keepin it real as opposed to getting defensive and attempting to change the direction of the discussion. It’s not really comparable to try to point to white women changing their hairstyles sometimes.

              1) Count on your fingers the number of times you’ve heard white kids or even adults making fun of a white child or woman for having “straight hair”? Now count on your fingers the number of times you’ve heard a black person (kid or adult) making fun of a black child or adult’s “nappy ass hair”. Get real people! If you don’t wanna talk about this because the discussion is getting old (which I would agree with you on, cause it is) then that’s one thing. Say that then! But don’t bullshit the topic and act like white people hate their natural hair like we do. That doesn’t mesh well with all the intelligence I’ve been reading on different posts up until this point.

              You can call the cliche police on me, I don’t care. But all I’m tryna say is “Keep it real”. It doesn’t matter how much people defend the “anti-nappy” movement that has dominated the world for centuries now, and try to downplay it like it doesn’t really exist, anybody that’s being real with themselves knows that the way black people see their hair and the way white people see their hair is NOWHERE NEAR EQUAL….

              thanks again VanityinPeril

      • http://eloquence-inc.blogspot.com Eloquence, Inc.

        HAAAAAAAAAAAA Obsidian handled this up, down, left, right, and center!

        And this is coming from someone with no problem with relaxed or natural hair since I’ve worn both and now wear a natural. If I want I’ll go back to the relaxed look but either way since I’m so use to them is still the hair growing out of my own head. May not change the original intent of whoever invented the relaxer though. :)

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          Thank you. It’s not to see some Black folk who can actually argue with reason and some degree of objectivity.

          O.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            Correction in response to Eloquence:

            “Thank you. It’s GOOD to see some Black folk who can actually argue with reason and some degree of objectivity.”

            My bad for the typo (typing really fast here)…

            O.

      • IsOurChildrenLearning?

        No.

      • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

        O..

        I think you may be incorrect in the statement nothing is more easier than an afro puff. Not everyone has the hair that lends itself to an afro puff.

        From a personal standpoint, my hair does not. My hair gets curly (like a juicy gheri curl) when wet. When it dries, it’s this uneven wavy rats nest. If I don’t spend money on product, it doesn’t curl. If I choose not to buy product, then I have to put it in rollers- which can take hours. If I just comb it out, I look like Fraggle Rock on ACID. My hair requires me spending more money on product and time negotiating a style when ‘natural’ then it does when I flat-iron it. More often than not I don’t flat-iron it..but honestly it is easier to deal with when it’s straight. AND I get just as many compliments on my hair straight or natural. (It just depends on from who and what generation they are from. Yes..older people appreciate my straight hair a lot more than they do my natural hair)

        I do believe that you are correct, that black women have had a history of trying to live within a world where the standard of beauty did not appreciate our looks. However, I do not believe that is the case currently. I think we (black women + society) are increasingly accepting of black beauty in all it’s forms…and our spending more money on product has more to do with maintenance, ease, and creativity than it does on being accepted by whites.

        • IsOurChildrenLearning?

          EXACTLY. Natural hair is not easier for many hair textures. It actually takes more time and care than a qucik flat-iron

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “I think you may be incorrect in the statement nothing is more easier than an afro puff. Not everyone has the hair that lends itself to an afro puff.”

          O: So doing the all-day-long-torture-treatment that is the beauty shop in Any Hood, Black America, is in fact, easier? Please explain?

          “From a personal standpoint, my hair does not. My hair gets curly (like a juicy gheri curl) when wet. When it dries, it’s this uneven wavy rats nest. If I don’t spend money on product, it doesn’t curl. If I choose not to buy product, then I have to put it in rollers- which can take hours. If I just comb it out, I look like Fraggle Rock on ACID. My hair requires me spending more money on product and time negotiating a style when ‘natural’ then it does when I flat-iron it. More often than not I don’t flat-iron it..but honestly it is easier to deal with when it’s straight. AND I get just as many compliments on my hair straight or natural. (It just depends on from who and what generation they are from. Yes..older people appreciate my straight hair a lot more than they do my natural hair)”

          O: That’s because looking White was extremely more important to said previous generation. It still is today, although it is changing, ever so slightly…the recent Carol’s Daughter controversy is a case in point.

          “I do believe that you are correct, that black women have had a history of trying to live within a world where the standard of beauty did not appreciate our looks. However, I do not believe that is the case currently. I think we (black women + society) are increasingly accepting of black beauty in all it’s forms…and our spending more money on product has more to do with maintenance, ease, and creativity than it does on being accepted by whites.”

          O: Spend some time among non-Black Men and see if they agree with this statement as it relates to Black Women. Let’s start with current First Lady Michelle Obama. Then, we can consider “lad magazines” like FHM and Maxim. How many obviously Black Women have been featured on their front convers? NOT Thandie Newtons or Zoe Saldanas; I mean, ANGIE STONES AND INDIA AIRES?

          To ask the question, is to answer it.

          A really important part of this story got swept under the rug, when just last week, plus-sized model and actress Mia Amber Davis died suddenly. Kanazawa made the point that Black Women were heavier than all other groups of Women, and it is this also, that impacts their physical attractiveness to all other groups of Men other than Black Men. Being “thick” is NOT seen as part of being physically attractive for a Woman, for the most part. Only Brothas feel and say otherwise, as a Male group.

          O.

          • IsOurChildrenLearning?

            “ANGIE STONES AND INDIA AIRES”

            Those chicks are UGLY.

            • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

              They are not. At least to me.

              • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                True, beauty is subjective. I just feel that other women could be used as examples of “more black” beauty

            • Kemz

              What an ugly statement. Smh

              • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                I will agree that calling people ugly is wrong and something I NEVER do, thus I’m kinda shocked that I did it. In that regard, the statement is ugly. My bad. But if you think it’s wrong that someone would not find these women to be world-class beauties we’re going to have to disagree.

            • Book2

              WTH!!!!!!o-O

          • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

            O: So doing the all-day-long-torture-treatment that is the beauty shop in Any Hood, Black America, is in fact, easier? Please explain?

            I partly explained in the next paragraph above..but for me. Once my hair is straight I don’t have to do much to it except brush out tangles and maybe wrap it for about a couple of weeks or longer depending on the weather. But natural, I have to daily add moisturizer, oils, or put in rollers, or tame it down in some fashion.

            SQ: Do you have sisters or a mother? Have you not witnessed the trials and tribulations that they go through? Have you asked them their opinion on your beliefs?

            O: That’s because looking White was extremely more important to said previous generation. It still is today, although it is changing, ever so slightly…the recent Carol’s Daughter controversy is a case in point.

            I don’t know about Carol’s Daughter controversy. But you are correct, the older generations social norms are different than ours.

            O: Spend some time among non-Black Men and see if they agree with this statement as it relates to Black Women. Let’s start with current First Lady Michelle Obama. Then, we can consider “lad magazines” like FHM and Maxim. How many obviously Black Women have been featured on their front convers? NOT Thandie Newtons or Zoe Saldanas; I mean, ANGIE STONES AND INDIA AIRES?

            Why should I care about what non-black men think of me? It’s magazines like those who give props to the Thandies and Zoe’s that give young black girls the complexes they have today. Currently, young black girls do have their “Bluest Eye” moment, especially if they go to PWI’s. But when they get older, and as we learn about our culture, our history, a certain black pride develops that causes us to want to express our individuality more.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “I partly explained in the next paragraph above..but for me. Once my hair is straight I don’t have to do much to it except brush out tangles and maybe wrap it for about a couple of weeks or longer depending on the weather. But natural, I have to daily add moisturizer, oils, or put in rollers, or tame it down in some fashion.”

              O: Fair enough.

              “SQ: Do you have sisters or a mother?”

              O: I do. On both counts.

              “Have you not witnessed the trials and tribulations that they go through? ”

              O: Indeed, I have.

              “Have you asked them their opinion on your beliefs?”

              O: No, I have not. The topic never came up in the way it’s being discussed here and as of late.

              O: That’s because looking White was extremely more important to said previous generation. It still is today, although it is changing, ever so slightly…the recent Carol’s Daughter controversy is a case in point.

              “I don’t know about Carol’s Daughter controversy. But you are correct, the older generations social norms are different than ours.”

              O: The Carol’s Daughter situation was discussed recently here at VSB. You might be able to pull it up via its archives…

              “Why should I care about what non-black men think of me? It’s magazines like those who give props to the Thandies and Zoe’s that give young black girls the complexes they have today. Currently, young black girls do have their “Bluest Eye” moment, especially if they go to PWI’s. But when they get older, and as we learn about our culture, our history, a certain black pride develops that causes us to want to express our individuality more.”

              O: I agree; now, go run tell the Global Sistahood that…

              O.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

            Unless you are a hairdresser, you can’t tell me anything about the ease of maintaining ANY hair style, let alone “natural” black hair.

            The more you comment, the more I’m convinced that you don’t know any actual black women outside of immediate family.

            (whips my locs back and forth and exits this comment)

            • CaribbeanQueen

              exactly! how is he gonna tell a woman what style is easier. U been doing hair O?

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Unless you are a hairdresser, you can’t tell me anything about the ease of maintaining ANY hair style, let alone “natural” black hair.”

              O: I never claimed to have any such expertise…though I have spent quite a bit of time in such establishments and have observed firsthand what is done.

              “The more you comment, the more I’m convinced that you don’t know any actual black women outside of immediate family.”

              O: You would be sorely mistaken. But then, what else is new?

              “(whips my locs back and forth and exits this comment)”

              O: *hands Ms. Anti-Cool a neckbrace*

              O.

              • Sula

                though I have spent quite a bit of time in such establishments and have observed firsthand what is done

                So you work at a barbershop?

                Your faux expertise in any subject because you’ve read a couple of wikipedia about them is starting to really rile me up… and I don’t get riled up that easy… But sometimes one just wants to enjoy VSB without having to deal with this constant and unrelenting display of unnecessary douchebaggery… Frankly, do you read your comments out loud to hear the tone of your voice or something? Because it surpasses comprehension.

                • Shay

                  Douchebaggery mixed with grating levels of narcissism.

                  That being said, I always like your comments.

                  • Sula

                    Thanks Shay! I have missed reading you. :)

                    • Shay

                      Yeah… I’ve been ghost since December because I’ve had too much on my plate. I’m hoping to play catch up this summer.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “Douchebaggery mixed with grating levels of narcissism.”

                    O: Says the one who’s idea of a cogent and thoughtful response to a proposition is dropping the F-bomb….riiight….

                    O.

                    • Shay

                      You’re not worth a cogent and thoughtful response.

                      *shrug*

                • http://twitter.com/WuDaMan WuDaMan

                  Hi Ms. Sula,

                  • Sula

                    Hi Mr. Wuda!

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “So you work at a barbershop?”

                  O: No, I don’t; however, several members of my family, are.

                  “Your faux expertise in any subject because you’ve read a couple of wikipedia about them is starting to really rile me up…”

                  O: Maybe that might because of your own projections onto me in this regard – an important consideration since I have never claimed to have “expertise” in “any subject”? *shrugs*

                  “and I don’t get riled up that easy…”

                  O: *takes a bow*

                  “But sometimes one just wants to enjoy VSB without having to deal with this constant and unrelenting display of unnecessary douchebaggery…”

                  O: So, what I have said is now “doucebaggery” – but your openly questioning of my mental and emotional state, is not? Are you a licensed mental health professional? Are you a therapist? On what basis do you make these assertions?

                  “Frankly, do you read your comments out loud to hear the tone of your voice or something? Because it surpasses comprehension.”

                  O: No, I don’t. Do you even know what “comprehension” means?

                  O.

            • http://alexiswhite.com Alexis

              I wish there was a way to like your comment

          • kid video

            @ Obsidian

            I’m glad you mentioned Mia Amber Davis(rip)…

            you’re really sonning this topic.

            • Yoles

              but we don’t even know what she died of, does Obie know for a fact that her untimely death was weight related?!?! there are hundreds of ways to suddenly die that are not heart attacks or strokes…

              aneurism
              blot clot that went the lung
              blot clot that went to the brain
              blot clot that went the heart
              poisoning
              overdose
              asphyxiation and so on and so forth

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                Ms. Yoles,
                No, I do not know for certain that the late Ms. Davis’ demise was as a direct result of weight issues. But what we do know, is that Black Women as a group are heavier than any other female cohort in the USA, and have a higher incidence of health related problems as a result. Kanazawa spoke to the weight issue in his paper. It is not therefore unreasonable to take these factors into account here.

                O.

                • Yoles

                  @Obsidian & Kid Video

                  Months later but this stuck in my head: The death certificate for plus-size model Mia Amber Davis has been updated to reveal that Davis officially died from a blood clot in her lungs, according to a new ruling from the Los Angeles County coroner’s office. The office issued an updated death certificate nearly two months after an autopsy and toxicology tests were performed on the actress and plus-size model.

                  Chief Assistant Coroner Ed Winter tells E! News that Davis suffered a “pulmonary thromboembolism,” a blockage that occurs in one of the main arteries in the lungs.

                  http://www.theroot.com/buzz/plus-size-model-mia-amber-davis-cause-death-updated

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              Thanks, Bruh.

              O.

          • http://www.uniquelydynamic.com Ms. Johnson

            What makes Angie Stone and India Arie the standard for Blackness? I guarantee you look in their geneology and you will fine non African genes, but because my non African genes are more prevalent I am not a standard of Blackness? GTFOH! Whether the previous mentioned women or Lynn Whitfield, Lauren London, Paula Patton, we are all BLACK and are defined by our own degree, culture, history, and upbringing on what Blackness means and is to us individually and as a whole!

        • Masiotso

          Co-sign!

          There are a growing number of natural hair forums, you.tube videos, websites helping sisters manage their natural hair with ease. It’s not easy if you don’t have the time.

          • Yoles

            you are so right… i have natural hair and just watching a video and seeing all the preparation and product et al makes me want to buy a wig… i’m out here living life, not living to style hair

        • whyaskquestions

          I agree that all black women don’t have the same texture. I wish people would get that through their head. However, I feel that all of what you just said you feel is necessary to do proves the point of black women not accepting their natural looks in favor of a more European look. I’m natural and I do very little upkeep and people always say ‘well my hair is not like yours’ okay…absolutely… But who told you that yours was bad?? Who told you if your hair had an uneven curl pattern it’s wrong? Who told you you had to be put XYZ in or it wouldn’t look decent. And I’ll have to ask that people not respond with time arguments. I absolutely agree natural hair can take way more time to style than straight hair. But people keep commenting and referencing how they ‘look’ with their natural texture. So on a looks basis…who told you your natural texture was subpar and that you absolutely have to do all this and use all this before it’s decent?

          • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

            However, I feel that all of what you just said you feel is necessary to do proves the point of black women not accepting their natural looks in favor of a more European look.

            Who told me? No one told me..it’s my personal preference. My love/hate relationship with uneveness. Why is some part of my hair waivy and the other part straight (In it’s natural state)? That annoys ME, not Europeans. I pull my hair back, because I don’t like constantly pushing it out of my face. That annoys ME, not Europeans. I add gook so that it is easier to comb and tame it because if I don’t it gets into a tangled mess. Then makes it even harder to comb. I am tenderheaded..combing knots out of my hair gives ME (not white women) a headache.

            and YES..it is time. Time IS important, because it is limited. I don’t have time to be fooling with it..I’d rather read a good book, go to the movies, ride my bike, sleep, eat, whatever else there is to do instead of sitting in front of a mirror for 4 hours at a stretch.

            Please don’t confuse whatever feelings YOU maybe having over what I say with what I actually feel. Because you don’t know me. You don’t my hair and you don’t know why I do whatever I do..until I tell you.

            I respect your opinion that some black women are insecure enough about their looks that they want fit in with the status quo, but you can not project those feelings onto people you know nothing about.

            • whyaskquestions

              people are taking all of this really personal and I understand it’s a heated topic but I wasn’t leading the inquisition against you. So I was shocked to see your response and I think you’re overreacting. And I’m going to ignore all of the time related comments because I said I don’t disagree that time is an issue. I’m not projecting anything I was asking a legit question which you answered. But in my opinion a lot of people up here are fighting really hard to prove they are above ‘whitewashing’. I don’t know how to respond all includively but to say that NO not all beauty regimens are based on trying to look more European but YES most peoples ideals of what is considered decent and acceptable in mainstreaponsem society is based off european ideals.

              • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

                I took it personal because you made it personal. When you make a comment directed at a person, using examples from their post, ask them questions about their post, then insert the word “You”, that implies specificity.

                “However, I feel that all of what you just said you feel is necessary to do proves the point of black women not accepting their natural looks in favor of a more European look.”

                Your statement (and subsequent questions) made it sound like you know why I behave the way I do, and the reasoning behind my behavior had to do with a lack of acceptance about myself as black woman. It’s judgmental and condescending.

                People take that kind behavior personally. For example, you telling me that I am overreacting implies that you are of some authority and have the right to judge whether my reaction is necessary or not. Which you don’t. I can imagine if I cursed you out, made threats against you, or in some way ‘disturbed the peace’ in away that maybe Liz, Champ or Panama want to comment. But you are just another person expressing an opinion. I’m allowed to react to it and respond. Just as you were allowed to react to and respond to mine.

                However, I did not stand in judgement of your opinion (like you did of my original post..and are doing again). I said I respected your opinion when you are talking about “some women”. It was only when you direct it towards an individual, myself, that I have a problem with it.

            • whyaskquestions

              and also…is your uneven curl pattern like that since birth? How often do you straighten (whether heat or chemical) your hair? Because when you straighten your hair constantly it changes the natural curl pattern of your hair. I very rarely get my hair straightened but after I do and I wash it out later it’s part straight, part curly, whole mess (and that’s fine too). So for people who do a lot to their hair the curl pattern is going to be affected.

              • niksmit

                Not the OP, but yes, many of us have multiple curl sizes and patterns naturally. No, it’s not heat damage. If we want a more uniform look we must style it into one. Skilled hair cutting can make the transitions less visually jarring as well.

              • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

                I haven’t had my hair chemically straightened since I left my mothers house 17 years ago. It grows pretty fast and I have chopped it off three times since, I imagine that it has grown out of it’s ‘perm’ phase. I flat iron my own hair or get professionally done 4-6 times a year. Mainly to make sure my ends aren’t split, or I am traveling out of town and can’t take all of my supplies with me.

                As niksmit pointed out.. some women just have a naturally uneven curl pattern. I am one of them.

          • Justme (the guy)

            @whyaskquestions- Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner. The convenience argument is…well…convenient to use. Who the hell said it looks worse? That’s the real question. Thanks for living up to your screenname. Malcolm X would be proud lol

            • Kema

              “Who the hell said it looks worse? ”

              Actually I think many black women do not even know what their natural hair looks like to even make that statement.

      • IsOurChildrenLearning?

        Afro puffs (which I assume is your way of saying natural styles) is not easier than a perm or a flat iron for most women.

        • Yoles

          its not easier for me… no way no how… not at all

        • Vanity in Peril

          It may not be easier but perms/relaxers can damage your scalp. Even if you are going to a salon, the stylist could still be destroying the ph levels on your scalp which could lead to baldness, dandruff, etc. Wearing my hair natural (I don’t wear a puff) is me being nice to my hair and saying “if it’s uneven, floppy, not as curly on one side, frizzy… whatever it’s mine.” Plus I like to work out and working out everyday and not being able to wash my hair for fear of messing up my wrap makes my life in no way easier. Natural hair can take time and can take patience and does take care. But isn’t that true of anything? it’s only going to take the amount of time you are willing to put into it. I wear my natural hair in many diff styles and am still able to live a full and happy life free from hours in the salon AND the natural hair care forums.

          • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

            Natural hair can take time and can take patience and does take care. But isn’t that true of anything?

            —-

            Exactly the point people are trying to make. Everything we do takes time and effort. That does not make any one way wrong or right. You feel your natural hair is beautiful and the time it takes to maintain it is worth the effort. However, someone else may feel that straightening their hair is beautiful and the time they take to do that is worth the effort.

            None of us are truly natural. We all do something to have it be in accordance to what we find beautiful..whether it is straightening, coloring, cutting, braiding it, twisting it, locking it. Something is being done. To each their own.

            • Sysy

              You both are right- I simply feel that the line to draw is when a black female HATES black hair because it’s black hair. Not because it’s harder to deal with, or more time consuming, or any valid reason. If she dislikes her hair for the fact that it would enhance her black-ness, then that’s a PROBLEM.

              Other than that, if it was up to me, she’s free to enjoy her creamy-crack as she wishes.

      • kid video

        @ Obsidian

        The force is strong with you brotha…

        This post is going to be a thousand comments strong.

        I’ll be back if i got something to add.

      • ab

        You are talking a bunch of ridiculous BS.

        nothing is easier than an afro puff? bwaaa haaaa haaa
        I’ve been natural since I was a kid and I do not wear my hair in a puff, only on special occasions. Mainataining a puff, dealing with detangling it once those curls recurl onto themselves IS time consuming.
        So please go sit down in a corner.

        Oh and re-straight hair on black people. Kindly tell the
        Sudanese
        the Ethiopians
        The algerians
        moroccans
        madagascans
        Northern Nigerians
        Tunisians
        Egyptians
        Cape Verdians
        Mauritanians
        Namibians
        those from Sao tome
        The Eritreans

        who have straight hair naturally that they are trying to be European.

        Gosh, its crazy when ignorance shows up disguising itself as ‘self righteous indignant pride’.
        What is even crazier is how 2 guys are dominating this thread trying to tell women about their hair, their motives and what they think.

        GTFO with that mess. How and why are you so damn invested in what women are doing that you can go around spouting ridiculous tripe based on some skewed logic to try to shame black women into admitting the BS your feeble mind has worked up… is beyond reason.

        Please before you type one more ridiculous statement EDUCATE YOURSELF about the subjects of Africa PRE-colonialism.
        And stop using a silly narrow subset of European impressions of ‘Stereotypical African features’ to define Africa.. because it is downright ridiculous and false.

        – A narrow & small nosed, natural hair, dark skinned, small waisted PURE West African woman.

        • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

          LOVE THIS COMMENT.

        • Sula

          Girl, please PREACH!!

          As a West-Af myself, this subject is just looking all kinds of ridiculous to me… I mean, really? My poor Fulani and Touareg girlfriends have to learn the harsh way via Obsidian, yuck! that they are NOT considered black…

          And like I said, those faux experts are really killing me! *smh*

        • Kema

          We can go on and on about how some Africans have straighter hair. The thing is… If you dont have it naturally then yes you are trying to change. Maybe you are not trying to be European but Ethiopian. lol!

          Whether you are white – tanning, black – lightening or Asian – afro perming (see someone wants our hair), you are trying to change.

          • ab

            Ethiopian = African Thus the whole premise of Black women straightening their hair because of self hate … blah blah blah FALLS OVER.

            So when are we going to start talking about how black men completely hate themselves because of the waves they put in their hair?
            Or how they keep trying to get european looking hair by wearing what amounts to a condom on their heads just to look white.

            Don’t you get it?. Obsidian, Coldsweat and Just me are spouting some solidified Turdology based on some discredited quack scientist and OBSIDIAN in particular is doing as a reason for why black men date white women O_O
            Like anyone ever told him not to.

            It seems most of these boys are so upset that we don’t miss them, that they keep trying to insult us so we can pay them attention.

            Seriously, I bet their fathers are spinning in their graves when they see how INVESTED they are in the business of women. Damn! Dudes. Get a grip, get a life and go talk with your men folk.

            • coldsweat3

              Where in the hell did i even say it was a ACTUAL PROBLEM?!?!? I could careless what someone does with their hair was just participating in the debate. I never even said what black women should or should not do. I cosigned Obsidian on ONE post. Get your facts right.

              • ab

                My facts are intact, yours on the other hand have been proven to be less than stellar.
                here’s an assignment for you. Go and re-read your posts.

                It seems you got soo emotional in your posts that you must have plum forgotten or overlooked the rancid posturing you have been adopting. Attempting to teach African HISTORIC details based on slim to NO knowledge was always going to be a recipe for disaster.

                Its a shame that you have realised that. Now, you are attempting victimhood?.
                Grow up and go have your pity party over there with the quack scientist in a corner.
                We are not buying ur BS today, not even as a sympathy buy.

        • keisha brown

          @ab

          *gets out of bed to applaud*
          *goes back to bed*

      • Deeds

        O: Bunk. Nothing is easier than an Afro Puff.

        Ummm…afro puffs aren’t that easy. How many afro puffs have you worn? I can tell you as a natural(now locs), but have had a relaxer in the past, it takes a while and some doing to get into an afro puff. Sometimes I would have to blow dry the hair closest to the scalp out a little in order to get it into the pony tail and other tricks.

        • Deeds

          Oh I see many others have already addressed this one.

      • WIP

        I’m not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but women also straighten their hair because it looks longer when it’s straightened. Long hair is also a standard of beauty across continents.

        “Nothing is easier than an afro puff”- The hell you say. Nothing is easier than a wrap. I’ma need these men to stop acting like they know how long it takes to put a head of hair together.

        • Yoles

          i mentioned that WIP… straight hair shows length… i love long hair… my hair in its natural state would be at my chin but straightened on my shoulders and so on and so forth… if i have long hair why can’t i show it? i grew it, not trying to be white and now i want to see it

      • Sula

        The day you actually decide to use the mushy stuff between your two ears is the day I will actually read a “comment” from you… Until then, please try to refrain from stopping the flow of the comments so often. You are annoying and it’s not even cute or funny anymore.

        For discourse to happen, one has to actually have some brain to bring to the table. In this case, your arguments/discourses/whatever you claim them to be are not up to par (well they never were, but that’s besides the point) and frankly, they just distract and take away from the whole convo…. and it can be irritating.

        • Around the Way Girl

          (Waits for Obsidian to tell Sula that her “screeching” is proof that he’s speaking the truth.) Lol.

          Seriously, though, Obsidian, people are starting to lose respect for you. I know I am, and I once had some. You need to either tighten up these arguments or just stick to talking to the men about Game.

          • keisha brown

            i dont think he cares about being respected or having a respectful conversation my dear.

            • Around the Way Girl

              Yeah, I feel you. What I meant by respect is being taken seriously. He definitely wants to be taken seriously, or he wouldn’t be all over the post writing 1,000-word essays, and responding to every person who responds to him. All I’m saying is, he’s starting to just look silly.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            “(Waits for Obsidian to tell Sula that her “screeching” is proof that he’s speaking the truth.) Lol.”

            O: Indeed…

            Obsidian Maxim #23: One can determine the strength of their arguments by the direct proportion of screeching by the opposition in response…

            “Seriously, though, Obsidian, people are starting to lose respect for you.”

            O: That would be a major concern if indeed I was seeking it. Moreover, how do you know what “people” are “starting to do” here? To date, it appears that the lion’s share of dissenters in relation to my stated positions here have been Female, and even then it is hard to say if it is the majority of the VSB Female readership/commentariat. Please explain?

            “I know I am, and I once had some. You need to either tighten up these arguments or just stick to talking to the men about Game.”

            O: I think my arguments thus far are “tight” enough, in that few have actually addressed them at all…

            O.

            • V Renee

              To date, it appears that the lion’s share of dissenters in relation to my stated positions here have been Female, and even then it is hard to say if it is the majority of the VSB Female readership/commentariat. Please explain? .

              Maybe VSB should do a poll on whether you should be banned from the island? I’m definitely voting hell yeah you should!

      • ThisIshRightHereNinja

        your point is well taken, but I disagree with your comments on the ease of Black (female) hair styling. I have no desire to straighten or appear more Euro, and my “tougher time” is by no means a function of that. We DO have more complicated hair needs given our propensity to: lack of moisture, damage from simple combing, friction/traction breakage (necessitating the use of nighttime head wraps) necessity for shampoo that coats instead of strips, etc. Even a regular afro puff-wearer has a much more complicated hair endeavor than her straight-haired sistren (of any race)

      • http://gigs.alvinmilton.com AGDM

        speak on it!

      • Juu

        I have to agree with Obsidian here.
        Let me try to bring a little light here, on why I think that tanning and straightening your hair is totally different.
        Are white people who tan influenced by black people? Probably not.
        Let’s imagine a world where the black man never existed, well I’m sure white people would still tan. Why? 1st because it happens naturally after exposure to the sun.
        In country with very little exposure of black people, let’s say Norway, Sweden, Russia, you name it, people still tan.
        Therefore tanning is independent from “wanting to be black”

        Now let’s picture the opposite, a world where the white man (or Asian, Indian whover has straight hair) never existed. A world were the only thing people know is kinky hair, puffy afro, twists, dreads and so on…
        Would black people wish to have their haire straight? I strongly believe that it would not even come into anybody’s mind.

        So my point here, is that yes, black women straighten their hair because straight hair has become a standard of beauty. Period.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “Black women often use weaves and relaxers as ways to make styling easier. Straight hair doesn’t make you look less black. It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair.”

      ok

      • IsOurChildrenLearning?

        So only white people have straight hair and only black people have curly hair? I’ve never had a perm and wear my hair eith way but straightening it is easier. I flat iron it and am good for a week. If it is curly I have to do it every day and that is much more time consuming. Now, I’m not gonna lie and act like all blk women love their hair but if we’re going to be honest “white” hair isn’t even the standard for those chicks. Take a look at where all this remy comes from: India.

        • WIP

          I went natural because I had been permed since youth, and YES, it took so much longer to do my hair. Finding a flattering style wasa challenge. So I switched back and it works better for me now. I love thick, kinky hair. I just don’t have the patience for it.

    • http://thatswhatgemsaid.wordpress.com Gem Jones

      Black women just have more complicated hair needs, straight up.

      ha!!! i love the word play (though i dont know if it was intended)

    • Kamala Jones

      My thing is are other races or ethnic groups engaging in cosmetic acts at their economic peril? I don’t believe so. It seems that only Black women are by and large doing so.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        “My thing is are other races or ethnic groups engaging in cosmetic acts at their economic peril? I don’t believe so. It seems that only Black women are by and large doing so.”

        O: And the Burning Question has to be – WHY IS THIS SO? I think we all know the answer.

        It’s just that the truth, well, it hurts.

        O.

        • Kamala Jones

          Yeah, it really hurts.

        • http://eloquence-inc.blogspot.com Eloquence, Inc.

          You’re both right. All things can pass when done in moderation. Black women are so known for anything but their natural hair state that it’s unusual or even rebellious to be seen natural! I even looked at my own head and thought when the afro puff is growing it looks so 1980s on me, cause I am just not use to seeing it! I like Amber Rose style, and the huge puffs…not the in between one. :( Cause I’m just not use to it, and being reminded of the 1980s makes me feel old…but if 50% of the women had that small afro going, would I have to reach back to the 80s for a mental image? No. So I live and learn. No matter which I choose in the future I feel as a black woman I should be used to my hair in it’s natural state and not just altered states. Even though some altered states don’t bother me.

        • Aisha

          This point I do get, O.

      • IsOurChildrenLearning?

        People don’t do this because they’re black, the do it because they’re financially irresponsible.

        • Sula

          Thank you for putting it in perspective for the obviously blind. Or is Financial Irresponsibility also linked to racial phenotype, O? Please enlighten us, great Vizir! *rolleyes*

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            “Thank you for putting it in perspective for the obviously blind. Or is Financial Irresponsibility also linked to racial phenotype, O? Please enlighten us, great Vizir! *rolleyes*”

            O: What does the fiscal health of America, or those responsible for it in any event, have to do with the matters currently under examination? Please explain?

            O.

            • Sula

              Are you really that stupid or do you just play one on the web?

              I will try as best as I can to answer you (the first and last time):

              A fiscally irresponsible person is a fiscally irresponsible person… A person who spends lots of money s/he doesn’t have on things s/he doesn’t need is a financially irresponsible individual. It has nothing to do with her/his race.

              You understand better now? Or do I have to do an analogy with game for you to get it?

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                “Are you really that stupid or do you just play one on the web?”

                O: *sly grin*

                “I will try as best as I can to answer you (the first and last time):”

                O: I’m all ears.

                “A fiscally irresponsible person is a fiscally irresponsible person… A person who spends lots of money s/he doesn’t have on things s/he doesn’t need is a financially irresponsible individual. It has nothing to do with her/his race.”

                O: OK. What does this have to do with the topic? The point about Black Womens’ expenditures on haircare products and services wasn’t meant as an examination of their fiscal responsibility or the lack thereof; the point was to illustrate just how important the issue of drastically altering their hair, in an effort to ape White beauty standards, was.

                So, you were saying?

                “You understand better now? Or do I have to do an analogy with game for you to get it?”

                O: Do you even know what Game is?

                O.

        • Masiotso

          Agreed. I do what is cute, convenient, and inexpensive.

          There are a lot of black women spending a lot money on beauty products to maintain natural hair styles. All the kinky, curly, twist gels and puddings aren’t cheap either.

      • ab

        erm yeah…
        botox, tanning in tanning salons exposure to dangerous UV levels … staying all day in the sun so they can get that tan which leads to cancer.
        But implants, lip implants… the list is endless!
        Even in the 1800’s european women were trying to achieve a big butt and narrow waist. via that whole crinoline corset.

        Are we so blind to the havoc Caucasians heep on themselves to look like us, that we overlook what they do as just ‘cosmetic’

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “erm yeah…
          botox, tanning in tanning salons exposure to dangerous UV levels … staying all day in the sun so they can get that tan which leads to cancer.
          But implants, lip implants… the list is endless!
          Even in the 1800?s european women were trying to achieve a big butt and narrow waist. via that whole crinoline corset.

          Are we so blind to the havoc Caucasians heep on themselves to look like us, that we overlook what they do as just ‘cosmetic’”

          O: What does White Women and what they do with their bodies have to do with the current topic under examination? Please explain?

          O.

          • ab

            O_O
            Pointing at the joker in the room
            Erm you brought them into the topic. but then I suspect even you can’t keep up with your varied mouth vomits. lol.

            Now, get gone… Your type pollutes everything you touch.. go work on your Game theory… you silly little boy

      • http://alexiswhite.com Alexis

        @Kamala,

        yes! Of course the obvious would be to mention the white women and their tanning, lip injections, butt and breast implants (which are all stereotypical traits of black women who are indeed thicker) but I live in Seoul Korea and these women spend all their money trying to get curly hair (which is black) and the spend all their money bleaching and lightening their skin (to look whiter). This tells me that they seriously have some self hate issues and that …..wait I totally lost my point..oh nm

    • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

      Even as I transition to natural, I agree with this statement. Like my sister says, perm ain’t gonna make us look like Farrah Fawcett. Even if we do straighten our hair, it STILL doesn’t look even close to Eurocentric. Our hair is just different, whether we tame it or not. I think the need to change out hair so much is more
      out of not knowing what to do with our own hair than not
      loving it. I hear too many “OMG I love your natural hair! Wish I knew how to
      make mine look like that” kind of compliments to natural haired women…not even realizing that they’ve never even SEEN their natural hair in order to
      even determine if they could get it like that. I think a lot of it is more
      ignorance than self-hatred, and this includes me. I never hated my own hair, just didn’t know what to do with it. Now I do. There is so
      much info out there now. But separate from that, I still believe that there are truly women out there that just consider their hair an accessory. And it’s not that deep to them. And they can change their hair depending on when a different mood
      strikes. It’s all relative. We can’t paint each of our relationships with our hair with one brush…

      • http://thatswhatgemsaid.wordpress.com Gem Jones

        I still believe that there are truly women out there that just consider their hair an accessory. And it’s not that deep to them. And they can change their hair depending on when a different mood strikes. It’s all relative. We can’t paint each of our relationships with our hair with one brush…

        alladis??? full of win

        • Yoles

          yes i totally agree… i have natural hair, that i get straighten by mis hermanas-las dominicanas- as often as i like. does getting a blow out make me look more white, please i’m better of saying straight hair makes me look slimmer…

          i straighten it for one reason and one reason only: BECAUSE I WANT TO

          • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

            Also, all of this is ASSuming that all Black women have the same kind of hair. Womp.

          • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

            There ya go.

            Sometimes a cigar is just a damn cigar.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              And sometimes, when an enormous outpouring of outrage comes spewing forth from the collective Id – in this case, the Sistahood, we can accurately surmise that this is so, because what has been said that has set them off so, is at least close to the truth.

              O.

              • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                “And sometimes, when an enormous outpouring of outrage comes spewing forth from the collective Id – in this case, the Sistahood, we can accurately surmise that this is so, because what has been said that has set them off so, is at least close to the truth. ”

                This argument is very flawed. According to this statement we should assume that the article that is the basis of this post is also true because of the outrage it prompted. Unless you agree with said publishing, you don’t even follow your own logic here.

                Maybe next time. :-)

                —IOCL

                • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                  He actually does so…

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  Actually, I DO agree with both Kanazawa’s article, AND Champ’s “take” on same, particularly his parting shots. But ultimately what I personally think of the matter isn’t nearly as important, as the whole of the world of Sistas, thinks of it – which is quite a bit – to the extent of trying to get Prof. Kanazawa FIRED, for saying something they don’t like.

                  People respond vehemently, not because something is so ridiculously off the wall so as to not make any sense at all; but rather, because something was said that comes dangerously close to the truth.

                  That, is what has happened here. Black Women, collectively, need to grow up.

                  O.

                  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                    (sticks tongue out at you)

                    • Book2

                      Bwhhahhahahhhahaa this here shyt is too F’n funny….bout like a Tyler Perry movie.

                      Continue…

                  • whyaskquestions

                    is this just your own psychological analysis of how the mind works? That if something makes you mad it’s because it is true?? Can you provide some research or something that proves this to be the case? This sounds like a very childish argument and then you close it with ‘black women need to grow up’. O, keep it real, you don’t like black women do you? You generally feel we are a collectively flawed demographic don’t you? And I want to convey this last sentence as genuinely as possible…

                    be honest.

                  • Sula

                    Black Women, collectively, need to grow up.

                    Until we do, can you please go play in traffic with your other grown-up friends? Please, pretty please? We are having fun as it is, and you’re spoiling it. Thank you kindly and bless your heart *southern white woman smile*.

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “Until we do, can you please go play in traffic with your other grown-up friends? Please, pretty please? We are having fun as it is, and you’re spoiling it. Thank you kindly and bless your heart *southern white woman smile*.”

                      O: Easy, Ms. Sula; your horns are beginning to show.

                      *hands her a mint julip*

                      O.

                  • http://www.pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

                    “People respond vehemently, not because something is so ridiculously off the wall so as to not make any sense at all; but rather, because something was said that comes dangerously close to the truth. ”

                    No.

                  • keisha brown

                    sigh.
                    i tried so hard NOT to get sucked in…
                    *nooo..dont do it! reconsider! you sure? f*ck it…*

                    O,
                    i understand that it is important to you to share your voice and knowledge with everyone. heck, it’s why any one bothers to risk sleep and employment to comment on vsb. and as humans, everyone likes to be co-signed and agreed with. it’s a mini self-of-steam boost.

                    i dont know you. i only know the electronic version of you that you put out here to be read and judged. what i conclude based on what i read of your posts is that you like to be right (who doesn’t?), but also like to condescend to those who don’t want to agree or engage in banter with you. you tend to make statements and present them as fact. you tend to make generalizations and refuse to acknowledge how/why someone might take offense to that. you ask people to ‘holla back’ at the end of your posts (i can’t call it a comment), but truly only are looking for a certain kind of affirmation.

                    it’s not that people cannot handle the truth, there is truth is all things, that study, this post – and even some of what you’ve been saying today. you aren’t always wrong, but it’s always borderline obnoxious. and at the end of the day, your opinion is just that – just one man’s opinion. trying to coax, bully or shame someone into accepting it, isn’t what this blog is about. (well..not it most cases at least)

                    do you have to sugar coat your words so that the medicine flows easier? nope. in my year here, i’ve seen a couple of characters try to do exactly what you do (with less characters), and either give up or change their approach.

                    we cannot control, how or how much you type, but once you hit submit, you cease to have any control over how your message is received. you may not care, you can call the visceral responses immature all you like – but in a forum like this, we are all judging and being judged. i’m sure there are many a folk who dont like me and what i have to say – so be it. but in my year of commenting, i’ve always tried to keep it respectful. i think that is the basis of the vsb community and what makes it successful.

                    we are all here for the mutual edu-tainment that pj and champ – and of course, the awesome sauce community that makes up vsb provide. for better or for worse, you are a part of that – but you create your own legacy.

                    just my long weekend food for thought. do with it what you will…

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      Well, if it isn’t Ms. Keisha Brown! Been awhile since the last time we’ve had a little chat. Here, lemme pull out a chair for you…

                      “i understand that it is important to you to share your voice and knowledge with everyone. heck, it’s why any one bothers to risk sleep and employment to comment on vsb. and as humans, everyone likes to be co-signed and agreed with. it’s a mini self-of-steam boost.”

                      O: OK.

                      “i dont know you. i only know the electronic version of you that you put out here to be read and judged. what i conclude based on what i read of your posts is that you like to be right (who doesn’t?), but also like to condescend to those who don’t want to agree or engage in banter with you. you tend to make statements and present them as fact. you tend to make generalizations and refuse to acknowledge how/why someone might take offense to that. you ask people to ‘holla back’ at the end of your posts (i can’t call it a comment), but truly only are looking for a certain kind of affirmation.”

                      O: Hmm. If I only wanted an echo chamber, it wouldn’t be at all hard to find or indeed to create one. I know you and others may have a hard time believing this Ms. Brown, but in truth I actually welcome debate and disagreement, in fact one of my guiding credos in life is that Clarity is better than Agreement. The problem, as far as I am concerned, is that all too often people supplant their emotions for reasoned thinking. I work very hard to separate my personal feelings from the matters obtaining in any given situation, a practice and discipline that has served me well. At any rate, I’m here to share ideas just like anyone else. Nothing more, or less.

                      “it’s not that people cannot handle the truth, there is truth is all things, that study, this post – and even some of what you’ve been saying today. you aren’t always wrong, but it’s always borderline obnoxious. and at the end of the day, your opinion is just that – just one man’s opinion. trying to coax, bully or shame someone into accepting it, isn’t what this blog is about. (well..not it most cases at least)”

                      O: Please point out to me what I have said is just naked opinion? I welcome the chance to see this.

                      “do you have to sugar coat your words so that the medicine flows easier? nope. in my year here, i’ve seen a couple of characters try to do exactly what you do (with less characters), and either give up or change their approach.”

                      O: I’m nothing if not tenacious.

                      “we cannot control, how or how much you type, but once you hit submit, you cease to have any control over how your message is received. you may not care, you can call the visceral responses immature all you like – but in a forum like this, we are all judging and being judged. i’m sure there are many a folk who dont like me and what i have to say – so be it. but in my year of commenting, i’ve always tried to keep it respectful. i think that is the basis of the vsb community and what makes it successful.”

                      O: As I’ve said offlist, I work very hard to be civil and to discuss the issues with a degree of decorum and clarity. Indeed, the record here at VSB shows that I’ve been personally attacked far and away more than I’ve supposedly personally attacked others – from speculation about my penile size and any supposed psychological linkages thereto that “cause” me to “act out” in the way that I do, to specualtion about my mental and emotional state (seen in this thread by Ms. Sula), to my supposed “issues” with Black Women (again, see this and many other threads), to my fiscal and employment status (which has absolutely nothing at all to do with this or any other topic I’ve participated in here at VSB), you name it – EVERYTHING BUT actually addressing what I say.

                      Now, to be sure, I’m not the least bit offended or hurt by any of it – I consider it all par for the rough and tumble of open debate in the public square. But what I DO find, is that when people have to resort to such overt lowbrow commentary, invective and assaults, they have tacitly admitted, that they have lost the argument.

                      Which makes me grin. ;)

                      “we are all here for the mutual edu-tainment that pj and champ – and of course, the awesome sauce community that makes up vsb provide. for better or for worse, you are a part of that – but you create your own legacy.”

                      O: And what a Legacy it is!

                      “just my long weekend food for thought. do with it what you will…”

                      O: And I thank you for serving it up!

                      O.

                    • V Renee

                      Nice comment K.B.

                      At O, if no one ever responded back to you, would you leave?

                    • keisha brown

                      O,

                      thanks for the seat. and you are right. people have come at you in all kinds of ways, trying to figure out a way to get you to see their way of thinking. and it’s silly. and juvenile. and unnecessary.

                      the problem is, you present your arguments as gospel, bible, locked-up irrefutable fact, when it is not always so. you also dont take into consideration that a logical argument in an emotional debate is never going to go well and will always end up sideways. yes, emotions should have no place in certain debates, but when the topic is me (the royal me, not me specifically of course) – it’s hard not to get angry about it. telling black women they are trying to be white and thinking you can simply breakdown a lifelong battle in 1 study/blog post – and you expect what exactly?

                      that and you in many cases encourage the responses you get by being arrogant and condescending. for example, when im having a discussion with someone, i always say: i’m better with examples, and use a story from my history to better convey my argument. im not trying to be a narcissistic and turn the conversation about me, just utilizing the best form of data i have – my experiences.

                      i presume based on the way you write that you’ve written an essay before. meaning you’ve had to provide proof and examples of the point you are trying to make. so when some uses an example to further supplement their point, and you say ‘please focus, what does that have to do with the post at hand’, can you not see how that would be taken? especially since you sometimes deviate so far and wide from the original post as well?

                      if you are going to come at people from an haughty intellect point of view, then you should subscribe to the same standards when engaging with other smart people. and if someone chooses NOT to engage, not to presume that it defaults that you are correct. some people just have work, babies or sleep to attend to. for others (to quote my girl Nick) they aint got that kinda time.

                  • http://www.twitter.com/drrdb TWIsM

                    O,

                    By this logic you’re saying that the Tea Party’s outcry about Obama’s country of origin was justified and NOT ridiculously off the wall and was “dangerously close to the truth.”

                    Sometimes, people are just reactive. Right, wrong, or indifferent. Some people just f*cking REACT. Not necessarily because the stimulus for their reaction was just, but just because.

                • Sula

                  Maybe next time. :-)

                  You think? I hope you are right though… Lol.

                  Because there is not one logical fallacy, this gentleman is not ready and able to use… to prove his confused points. Lol.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    “Because there is not one logical fallacy, this gentleman is not ready and able to use… to prove his confused points. Lol.”

                    O: Says the lady who sticks out her tongue, thinking that is a valid, reasoned and mature counterargument…

                    O.

              • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

                And sometimes, when an enormous outpouring of outrage comes spewing forth from the collective Id – in this case, the Sistahood, we can accurately surmise that this is so, because what has been said that has set them off so, is at least close to the truth.

                ——–

                ORRR .. it could be we are responding to this negative media not because we believe it ourselves, but we are trying to protect the little black girls out there that are still very impressionable.

                The only truth this speaks to is the truth that society has been and continues to push this negative image of black women down our throats and a little girl growing up and who doesn’t have strong guidance WILL grow up to believe it.

                That is our struggle..and it is hard to come out of it unless we stand up for ourselves and nip this foolishness in the bud when it comes up. It’s not enough to ignore it and hold our heads up high. We need to send a message that it is UNACCEPTABLE for society to continue to do this to us and our children.

                AND for YOU as a Black man to uphold this nonsense..and EVEN suggest that it is wrong for us to defend ourselves, is even worse than it is coming from a White or Asian person.

                • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                  “ORRR .. it could be we are responding to this negative media not because we believe it ourselves, but we are trying to protect the little black girls out there that are still very impressionable.”

                  O: Again, please note Champ’s parting shot observations above. Then, note Michelle Obama’s initiative that is really aimed at the very Black girls Sistas are putatively aiming to “protect”. Which would make much more of a realworld impact? I think to ask the question, is to answer it.

                  “The only truth this speaks to is the truth that society has been and continues to push this negative image of black women down our throats and a little girl growing up and who doesn’t have strong guidance WILL grow up to believe it.”

                  O: Black Women aren’t seen as attractive as other groups of Women, notably White and Asian. Move on.

                  “That is our struggle..and it is hard to come out of it unless we stand up for ourselves and nip this foolishness in the bud when it comes up. It’s not enough to ignore it and hold our heads up high. We need to send a message that it is UNACCEPTABLE for society to continue to do this to us and our children.”

                  O: So, are we now going to fire or get rid of every academic, public official or celebrity who offends thee? Is that how things are done now? If indeed Sistas are so very strong, they can demonstrate that strength to young Black girls by keepin’ on getting up. You cannot have it both ways here, and again Champ points this out in his post above. Have you seen it?

                  “AND for YOU as a Black man to uphold this nonsense..and EVEN suggest that it is wrong for us to defend ourselves, is even worse than it is coming from a White or Asian person.”

                  O: I never said that defending yourselves was wrong. What I am saying is that Sistas, as we all, must pick our battles. I think Champ would agree, based on what he’s noted above.

                  O.

            • coldsweat3

              LOL i think in many of these responses we are overlooking the fact that what is “attractive” is WHITE in the since of Aryian. Non-aryian whites in theory would follow in line with these same issues. Theres no “uniform” hairstyle but rather if someone alters there hairs natural state(not just brushing) then they usually are doing something that is attempting to go along with mainstream attractiveness which is controlled by the white media. We may disagree all we want but the reality is whiteness does equal beauty for the most part. Collagen lips and bootys are things that do have some merits where whites are allegedly looking more ethnic, but I believe its more of a empowerment of people trying to be confident in natural body states. Booty implants are not to the level of nose jobs.

              • IsOurChildrenLearning?

                I understand your point. Mine is just that people often assume that EVERY beauty ritual that black women participate in is in response to us trying to look white. That angers me to no end. I once had a man complain that I wore make-up, saying that I was “trying to look like one of those white girls”. Really? It’s like we can’t do anything to improve or polish ouselves. Most women don’t walk around looking the same way they did when they rolled out of bed. Every act of polish from a black women is met with a complaint of racial treason. Sometimes it really isn’t that deep.
                I’ve never had a perm but often flat-iron. Am I trying to look white? What about when I do a braid out? How about a wash-and -go but with gel? Am I trying to look white because I’ve somewhat altered my hair? Or am I just a grown woman that likes to style her hair in more than one fashion?

                • coldsweat3

                  lol your welcome to do so. Trust i was not saying when i see a sistah in the street with straight hair or it being styled i think damn here goes Tanisha again trying to look like Becky again. No. I actually say dang Jakim do you see Tanisha, she fine. Period. However, the reality of the situation is beauty is dictated by society and white beauty standards. We are all a victim. So no you are not TRYING to look white but unfortunately altering your natural state whether that is hair styles that do not occur naturally are done so with the purpose of trying to be attractive=white generally speaking. I dont think Champ nor most of our criticisms was on some super Militant Michael from Good times thought process but rather whether we want to admit it or not we do alot of ish because the white man says so. Please feel free to keep flat ironing and getting perms. I will run my hands through straight hair, curly hair or an afro. They all can get it.

                  • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                    Very well put.

                    O.

                  • Sula

                    *I wish I had the strength today to comment on this… but no, I’se tired*

                    :)

                  • keisha brown

                    Please feel free to keep flat ironing and getting perms. I will run my hands through straight hair, curly hair or an afro. They all can get it.

                    *sips water…

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            The Dominican Republic doesn’t see itself as having an African heritage. See: Skip Gates’ excellent PBS series “Black in Latin America”…

            O.

            • Yoles

              Obie

              we both know this is from a long and systematic oppression and white washing of DR… i can not being as verbose as you but in short… Africans were brought over to DR as slaves for the white Spaniards, then were was a lot of mixing going on, then Haiti rose up, kicked white man out and lost their status of being #1 sugar producer in the world and thus began their financial ruin. DR seeing this decides that white is right not wanting to suffer the same state as its neighbor Haiti…

              All that to say countless studies have shown children and adults both consciously and subconsciously align themselves with the oppressor not the oppressed. who wants to be grouped in with the underdog, the downtrodden, the beat upon? this mentally happens with whiteness globally as mentioned above and even domestic violence.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                Ms. Yoles,
                I don’t understand why you would bring domestic violence into the discussion here; please explain?

                Thanks.

                O.

                • Yoles

                  i was giving another example showing how the oppressed tend to identify/try to be like and deify the oppressor. i was showing that this mind state reaches far and wide.. not just racially…

              • Justme (the guy)

                This

                ” I dont think Champ nor most of our criticisms was on some super Militant Michael from Good times thought process but rather whether we want to admit it or not we do alot of ish because the white man says so. Please feel free to keep flat ironing and getting perms. I will run my hands through straight hair, curly hair or an afro. They all can get it.”

                Is what I’m saying! If black women don’t like their natural hair, it is what is is. I won’t lose no sleep because of it. I just want ppl to be real about it.

                And Yoles I agree about the DR thing. I also agree that people always identify with the oppressor rather than the oppressed. I just don’t see why we can acknowledge it in the DR (where it’s extremely obvious) but not with the descendants of Africans in this country….

            • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

              Considering the entirety of the Dominican experience and history isn’t in fact measured by what certain members of Dominican elite, this is patently false. There are many problematic issues with ‘Africaness’ in Latin America but just because certain branches, or even countries, deny that there is African ancestry in their country doesn’t mean the entirety of the people support that belief.

        • http://wewereninjas.wordpress.com/ Jay

          o: WRONG!!!! You hate yourself and would love nothing more than to punch Cicely Tyson in the throat.

      • Sula

        Shoot, to me hair is protein growing out of my skull… Not a political statement, not a reaffirmation of my person or whatever else hair has been attributed to be… My hair is not that important…

        • Around the Way Girl

          Remember though, we’re talking about black women as a whole group, who spend more money than they can afford on hair and stuff. I watched Good Hair, and I had no idea that weaves cost hundreds and even thousands of dollars. Women even have payment plans for them! I mean seriously? We’re FINANCING hair weaves? And then when you think about the number of women who are chemically straigtening not only THEIR hair but their babies’ hair as well (there was a toddler in the documentary getting a relaxer)…hair is extremely important to a lot of people.

          But I agree that it’s unfair to associate anyone who takes a flat iron to the head with self-hatred.

          • Sula

            we’re talking about black women as a whole group, who spend more money than they can afford on hair and stuff

            Who is making this assumption. Let’s do an empirical study real quick. Amongst your girls, who is spending more than she can afford? And I will like a show of hands of people who do?

            I don’t know anybody who spends money they don’t have on their hair… I don’t. And actually I have never met any of those “fabled” women. I know a lot of women who spend A LOT of money of their hair/grooming/fashion, but all of them can afford it because it is THEIR money. So please enlighten me.

            • Around the Way Girl

              I’m just looking at the numbers. I forget what the average black American woman’s net worth is right now, but it’s something miniscule. In the negatives, even (this is is public info that you can find…I’d look it up but I’m about to be out). But then, we’re spending half a trillion on hair and whatnot. Plus, if you’ve seen the documentary (and I’ve seen more than one), hair dressers will tell you that it’s a common occurrence for a black woman to come in and drop mad money on a hair weave. $800-$1000, easy. So that’s where I’m getting it from. I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am.

              • Around the Way Girl

                And it must be noted that I’m talking about whole group info and behavior, which is based on averages. Not anyone’s personal habits or financial situation.

              • Sula

                See in my opinion, the problem with that line of thinking is that it does not solve anything at all. So we are just talking in a vacuum? There is nobody who we know to whom this information might be valuable? So why are we wasting our time again?

                I understand what you are trying to say and most of the time this is my opinion as well. Fiscal responsibility is important. Let’s frame the conversation that way. Let’s make sure that young girls understand that putting $200 of weave hair on a credit card while a freshman in college is irresponsible and might hurt her in the long run. She would be better off using some homemade ingredient and using it on her natural hair..etc… Now, that line of conversation accomplishes SOMETHING. Instead of spewing regurgitated knowledge gleaned from dubious articles. Framing a conversation around what we think when we see a woman with non natural hair is… utter nonsense.

                And this is coming from a girl with coarse, nappy hair who loves it quite dearly and wears it that way and proudly… who is even launching a business around natural hair. So yeah, the usual suspects (not you Around The Way Girl) can miss me with their predictable and ridiculous assumptions.

    • Simba.Africanna

      > Straight hair doesn’t make you look less black. It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair.
      Physically? Maybe.
      Intellectually? No.
      If a product is marketed as “if you buy this, you’ll disguise/cover up your undesirable trait(s) and look ‘more beautiful’ “, and you buy it (be it hair, skin, etc.), you’re buying it because you’ve been convinced that your natural trait(s) are undesirable/not-beautiful.

      Ref: http://www.ligali.org/gallery/black_beauty_and_hair_ads/ad13.htm
      (The above holds even if you’re Somalian/Ethiopian/mixed/whatever [i.e. you are black & have naturally long hair / light complexion / etc.] )

      • Justme (the guy)

        ” > Straight hair doesn’t make you look less black. It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair.
        Physically? Maybe.
        Intellectually? No.
        If a product is marketed as “if you buy this, you’ll disguise/cover up your undesirable trait(s) and look ‘more beautiful’ “, and you buy it (be it hair, skin, etc.), you’re buying it because you’ve been convinced that your natural trait(s) are undesirable/not-beautiful.”

        EXACTLY! If it ain’t broke then why are you CONSTANTLY fixing it? IF you just “fixed” it from time to time then I’d concede, but black women almost NEVER wear their hair naturally. When they do, it’s usually just a quick phase. Don’t sidestep the issue or change the topic ppl.

    • hehe

      First of all to say that black women straighten their hair to make it manageable is a lie. Afro texture hair isn’t unmanageable, it’s because through history we were told that our hair is less attractive so we adapted the dominate culture routine to make our self more acceptable. Do you think if black women were told that their hair was beautiful and didn’t need to be alter when they were young they would think kinky hair was unmanageable? No.

      And yes Jewish ppl do a lot of things to make themselves look “less Jewish” from nose jobs and dying their hair blond.

      • hehe

        *blonde*

      • niksmit

        In our rush to free the masses from mental slavery to a beauty standard that has nothing to do with us, I think many are overlooking other practical effects of enslavement.
        Many of us lost how to care for our hair along with so much other stuff culturally. Paying lip service to natural beauty does not teach proper basic haircare techniques. For some it really is/was moreso an issue of “manageability.” When we know better (some of us) do better.

      • Siobhan

        “First of all to say that black women straighten their hair to make it manageable is a lie. Afro texture hair isn’t unmanageable”

        This is especially true because for a lot of our history we were trying to manage our hair with products meant for European hair textures. I can’t say I’d know what to do with my hair (other than braid it) if I were living in another period of America’s history, but there are so many more options available to black women that make doing our natural hair actually pretty easy.

    • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com wild cougar

      This

    • Yeah…So

      Took the words out of my mouth…

    • Sula

      It makes you look like a black girl who has straightened her hair. People drive me crazy with this foolishness

      Yes! These politics of telling black women how they should behave, because if they don’t do X, they are considered Y has got to stop.

      Is a white woman getting curls trying to be black??? More importantly, is someone going to tell her that she is trying to be “black” because she curled her hair?

      Can black women do what they dang please with themselves without incurring the wrath/consent or whatever else from people whose hair it’s not? Geesh! It’s so annoying.

      I’m natural haired today because it is EASY for me to do so… I am not trying to be “more black” (than I already am) and if I decide to straighten my hair, I’m not trying to be “less black”… it’s the style I want at moment M. And, if it’s ok with y’all, I would prefer to be able to do what I want with MY hair. Thankyouverymuch.

      /end rant

      • Simba.Africanna

        @Sula
        I wholly agree with you that you should be free do with/to your hair whatever you damn well please.
        But I think the disagreement is on the rationale. For some women (including black women) its “just to spice things up”, “get a new look”, “its spring time”, etc. In other words, it has nothing to do with what they believe about themselves (i.e. its just style/superficial).

        But for other women, esp. black women, the marketing is clearly trying to make you believe that dark skin is undesirable or natural hair is “not beautiful” (or won’t get you that movie role/job promotion or whatever). So the reason for the “wrath” is not that you’re being free/experimental with you hair (its your hair & you have every right to), but that you actually believe that you look “more beautiful” when you forsake your natural features/ethnicity.

        I, for one, I’m not ready to believe that the reason Beyonce wears fake hair/weaves all the time is simply style/superficial. [insert rant about the_role_of_the_media here]

        But ummm yeah, you can shave it off or color, purple, orange and blue if you want to. Its your hair. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_27y4rSkIsXk/TMeDONBJG8I/AAAAAAAAAJ8/pkk-1lA08Mw/s1600/wig_ghetto.jpg
        On 2nd thought, please don’t do that :) Seriously, a kitten dies everytime somebody does that.

        • Simba.Africanna

          meant to say
          …blue if you want to. As long as you’re honest with yourself about why.

        • Sula

          But for other women, esp. black women, the marketing is clearly trying to make you believe that dark skin is undesirable or natural hair is “not beautiful” (or won’t get you that movie role/job promotion or whatever). So the reason for the “wrath” is not that you’re being free/experimental with you hair (its your hair & you have every right to), but that you actually believe that you look “more beautiful” when you forsake your natural features/ethnicity.

          First, I am hoping the “you” is universal.

          Second, how does one know which camp a woman belongs to? Of the two camps you mentioned? I am curious at your particular technique of decipherment.

          Third, while I happily sport my natural hair, it would be presumptuous, condescending, and borderline stupidly arrogant of me to assume that the state of my hair happiness should be applied UNIFORMLY to all women who share a modicum of black blood. That is ludicrous and preposterous. So because, in my daily dealings, I avoid anything related to stupidity like the plague, I choose to assume that an adult woman has had the chance to weigh her options and decide what it is that she likes/wants/prefers… and believe her when she tells me WHY she prefers it. I usually like the same courtesy extended to my own choices… so you know, I do unto others as I like done to me… Because of all those factors, I usually tend to accept people and their choices and the rationale behind those choices as “facts”… Somebody who has never been a black woman in their life, unless I missed something Simba telling others what they think is the rationale behind their choices and has the gusto to state it as fact is akin to stupid arrogance in my book.

          As you were.

          • Sula

            Let my comment out to play! :)

          • Simba.Africanna

            > First, I am hoping the “you” is universal.
            Yes, “you” was meant to be universal, not personal.

            > I am curious at your particular technique of decipherment.
            – If I’m cool with her & I’m able to ask her, I’ll just ask her directly (as in “I see you’ve been rocking weaves for xx months, do you prefer rocking weaves to your natural hair?” if she say “yes”, I’ll ask why.)
            – If I’m not able to ask her or don’t know her, I’ll assume it just style.
            – Unless she’s been rocking weaves for “a long time” (I realize that that’s subjective—but so is my whole “method”—& to me that’s a year or 2). There exceptions to every rule of course (cancer patients, skin/scalp ailments, etc.)

          • Simba.Africanna

            > …and believe her when she tells me WHY she prefers it.
            I do too. I’ve asked & been told “its too much work” & I believed her.

            >Somebody …telling others what they think is the rationale behind their choices and has the gusto to state it as fact…
            I’m not saying it is fact (I don’t have any evidence), I’m saying it is assumption I make.
            Here’s is why: I’ve seen the “editing” (read: skin lightening) when black women are put on major magazine covers (men’s _and_ women’s). I’ve also seen the O.J. Time magazine cover (and its effect on the national conversation at the time) & I’m aware of the role of media in defining & perpetuating stereotypes and their impact on self-esteem.
            Also, I’ve heard/seen them talk about the realities of life in their work (music & showbiz. body image, skin tone, blah blah blah).

            So its a fair assumption that if someone is covering up her natural hair for a prolonged period of time, surely one can neither rule out style nor can they rule out “conformity” issues. I fail to see how that’s arrogant.

            • Simba.Africanna

              sorry. HTML fail.

        • Sula

          On 2nd thought, please don’t do that :) Seriously, a kitten dies everytime somebody does that.

          Ah, sarcasm! That elusive concept.

          • Simba.Africanna

            The sarcastic attempt was in ref to orange & blue hair; not the whole discussion.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

    Oh sh*t…

    • http://www.twitter.com/makinghisstory Evan McAuthur Kane

      EXACTLY…i feel the tremors.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      what happened? did boozer get his sh*t punched again?

      • http://www.twitter.com/makinghisstory Evan McAuthur Kane

        “i told you so…”

    • Yoles

      e-sis, this time i am holding your hand tightly

  • naturalista88

    Let the games begin!!

  • http://thejahfiles.blogspot.com/ B. Brown

    I suppose the easy (but incorrect) answer is that the second phrase causes the first to be true.

    Further playing advocate, it could be possible that sisters – note, no VS – think that other women’s desirable features to their own makes them “superwomen” of sorts. Lil’ Mo. F-a-b-o. Duh-duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh-duh….y’all get it.

    The real answer, though, really can’t be attained without looking further into the statements themselves. One would especially have to take a look at the different subgroups of sisters – after all, sisters are not a monolithic people – and compare thought processes across groups. There may be subgroups that rate themselves so highly that they pull the averages up. Could be groups that buy so much stuff that they pull those averages up.

    Long story short, there are more questions that need to be asked before we can come up with a complete answer.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “There may be subgroups that rate themselves so highly that they pull the averages up. Could be groups that buy so much stuff that they pull those averages up.”

      i see what you’re saying, but I strongly doubt this (and i suspect you do too)

      • http://thejahfiles.blogspot.com/ B. Brown

        It’s not something I’d bet on (for a number of reasons), I’ll say that much.

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      Brotha Brown,
      Replies below:

      “I suppose the easy (but incorrect) answer is that the second phrase causes the first to be true.”

      O: I see that at least some of us actually respect the canons of logic, still…

      “Further playing advocate, it could be possible that sisters – note, no VS – think that other women’s desirable features to their own makes them “superwomen” of sorts. Lil’ Mo. F-a-b-o. Duh-duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh-duh….y’all get it.”

      O: No; simple Cognitive Dissonance will suffice.

      “The real answer, though, really can’t be attained without looking further into the statements themselves. One would especially have to take a look at the different subgroups of sisters – after all, sisters are not a monolithic people – and compare thought processes across groups. There may be subgroups that rate themselves so highly that they pull the averages up. Could be groups that buy so much stuff that they pull those averages up.”

      O: LOL. I think the prevailing view in this regard is accurate. Sistas, and Brothas by the way, DO indeed rate themselves as more “all that” than other racial groups, whether this is indeed in fact the case or not. I say this is a group reaction, a collective defense mechanism, to the years of being made America’s de facto “Untouchable” caste.

      “Long story short, there are more questions that need to be asked before we can come up with a complete answer.”

      O: Yes, I agree; we can start with this simple question: if Prof. Satoshi Kanazawa is indeed a racist, why would he then say that Black Men are seen as MORE “manly”, ie, sexually attractive, to ALL Women groups, over ALL other Men – including his own racial group, which is Asian Men? Somehow this little detail gets lost in the shuffle.

      It would behoove us to seriously consider it.

      O.

      • http://eloquence-inc.blogspot.com Eloquence, Inc.

        See people are upset and honestly, the man is researching what is CLEARLY obvious in the dating world for any idiot to see, and is also noted by folks doing stats on the online dating site scene: black women and asian (I would say non-Indian) men are last on the list, GENERALLY speaking. The worst stereotypes are about these two groups. Being great in bed is a stereotype with black people in general but it works in the black men’s favor and just makes the women look like a bunch of hoes. Sad to say. I think the Japanese scientist should have titled his study why are black women PERCEIVED as less attractive than everyone else. We wonder the same thing in black circles all the time why are we having heart failure and declaring war cause the little asian dude said it? Perception is the better part of reality folks. And while we’re at it all this denial we are in on the topics of relationships and hair has to go. Those of us that need to make changes can’t change anything if we are constantly defending everything as something is wrong with the OTHER person.

      • http://thejahfiles.blogspot.com/ B. Brown

        O: No; simple Cognitive Dissonance will suffice.

        I’m not so sure that cognitive dissonance totally explains it. A majority thereof? Quite possibly. I’m not prepared to make it an absolute, though.

        O: LOL. I think the prevailing view in this regard is accurate. Sistas, and Brothas by the way, DO indeed rate themselves as more “all that” than other racial groups, whether this is indeed in fact the case or not. I say this is a group reaction, a collective defense mechanism, to the years of being made America’s de facto “Untouchable” caste.

        I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the prevailing view was accurate. I was just, as Tony Montana once said, proposing a proposition. Numbers say strange things sometimes. Whether this would be one of those times is unknown, at least to me. Totally agree with the remainder of the comment.

        Co-sign with your commentary everywhere else. I especially agree with your point on Kanazawa. As far as logic, I try…you won’t believe how much I catch for it around here (as in geographic locale).

  • Andi

    I’m still not sure about the validity of this statement:

    “African-American women spend more per person on hair and beauty products — products where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look less black — than any other culture of women on the planet.”

    Has he been to India?? Those broads have the skin bleach game on lock.

    Plus, besides straightening our hair (something that seems less and less en vogue (no hold on)) I don’t see many other products or services out there to whitetify Black woman. No sista is trying to get lipo suction out of her butt or get a nose job (besides Nene… and Latoya).

    And with this, “the insanely quick turnaround proves that we can get sh*t done if we put our creative resources together.” <- I really think we tend to holler and mobilize over the wrong things. A quack scientist puts out a junk study, call Jesse. Our family structure is disintegrating, *crickets*.

    • http://thatswhatgemsaid.wordpress.com Gem Jones

      I really think we tend to holler and mobilize over the wrong things. A quack scientist puts out a junk study, call Jesse. Our family structure is disintegrating, *crickets*.

      *nods head*

    • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

      I was just about the point to India!

      • coldsweat3

        But in other countries skin whitening products are still used by members of the African Diaspora. Also, India was colonized as well so its the same problem of trying to be more white so in there case less black=less indian. African Americans do get nose jobs though, especially celebs. The “attractive” models that we see even if they dont have “nose jobs” per se are not a “standard ninja nose.” AA have been mixed with white people and sometimes naturally have european features and if the Asian dude was saying blacks as a whole those AA sistahs who mastah got into the gene pool would play into his argument.

        • Andi

          I don’t think anyone is saying there isn’t a European standard of beauty in play. My point is that this is an issue not solely respective to Black women. Every culture touched by European Imperialism deals with this after shock.

          • coldsweat3

            @Andi this is true and it doesnt make it right for them either but this is VSB not VSA, or VSI.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “I’m still not sure about the validity of this statement:

      “African-American women spend more per person on hair and beauty products — products where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look less black — than any other culture of women on the planet.”

      Has he been to India?? Those broads have the skin bleach game on lock.”

      ok, ok, ok. i’ll make an amendment. in terms of spending, sistas might be second to india broads. better?

      • Andi

        LOL! My point is that there are women in the world who a far more obsessed with anglofying themselves than us. Chinese women will get surgery on their eyelids to have them look less mongoloid. Brazilian women will put the same chemicals used in embalming on their scalps to straighten their hair. I don’t think this is a “Black Women Problem.” This is global, the result of one culture subjugating and systematically dysmanteling all others.

        • En Squared

          Speak on it!

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “My point is that there are women in the world who a far more obsessed with anglofying themselves than us.”

          O: So what? Please learn to debate with logic. Focus…

          “Chinese women will get surgery on their eyelids to have them look less mongoloid.”

          O: Correction: Chinese women will get surgery on their eyelids to have them look more WHITE.

          “Brazilian women will put the same chemicals used in embalming on their scalps to straighten their hair. ”

          O: This is because the degree and extent of racial mixing between the Black, White and indigenuous peoples of Brazil is much, much higher than here in the USA or anywhere else in the Anglosphere.

          “I don’t think this is a “Black Women Problem.”

          O: YES, it is. Please focus.

          “This is global, the result of one culture subjugating and systematically dysmanteling all others.”

          O: Bunk. Men have always preferred fairer to darker Women all over the globe and throughout all cultures and times.

          O.

          • Andi

            So if I disagree with you I’m “unfocused and illogical.” In debate, we call this a fallacy :) I’m not even going to go into the unsubstantiated “facts” you’ve mentioned above. I’ve seen you pull this with other commentors on this site, and I’m not interested in this type of discussion. Happy trails Obsidian!

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “So if I disagree with you I’m “unfocused and illogical.”

              O: It is if you interject a variable into the debate that wasn’t there to begin with, yes…

              “In debate, we call this a fallacy”

              O: I am pleased that you know what you did that was wrong…

              ” I’m not even going to go into the unsubstantiated “facts” you’ve mentioned above.”

              O: They are not “unsubstantiated”; they are a matter of public record.

              “I’ve seen you pull this with other commentors on this site, and I’m not interested in this type of discussion.”

              O: Translation: “I’ve seen you discuss calmly the facts of the matter, and since I am unwilling and/or unable to do same, this is where I eject”.

              “Happy trails Obsidian!”

              O: Yippee-Kiyaah…

              O.

          • Maria

            I’ve been with you Mr. O throughout all of this, but you just lost me with

            “O: Bunk. Men have always preferred fairer to darker Women all over the globe and throughout all cultures and times.”

            Tan = healthy, and health/fertility indicators have always been the determinant of beauty since we were running around nekkid in the savannah. It was only in georgian/victorian times that they started worshipping pale-ass fainting broads who would lie in bed for all 9 months of their pregnancy and other such weakling moves. Whaddaya know, this was also the colonialism era, so these messed up values are what ended up being passed on to Afrika, India and everywhere else they have skin bleaching and other messed up ideals of beauty ie “fair complexion, fullness of figure, round facial features, golden tresses, soft skin, and light-coloured eyes” http://www.judgmentofparis.com/board/showthread.php?t=701

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              Actually Maria, what I have stated along these lines are true long before European colonization of India, Africa, China, and other points in the Pacific Rim. A simple perusal of history should suffice.

              I am also familiar with the website you referenced. Very interesting stuff!

              O.

          • niksmit

            Damn, I did not know that all cultures across all times had left us some sort of records about the male skin color preference for mating in their culture. Hell I didn’t even know men had universal preferences for skin color. Why have you been holding out on the world O.? When are you going to share the records of these lost cultures with the rest of the world???

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Damn, I did not know that all cultures across all times had left us some sort of records about the male skin color preference for mating in their culture. Hell I didn’t even know men had universal preferences for skin color. Why have you been holding out on the world O.? When are you going to share the records of these lost cultures with the rest of the world???”

              O: Please see my reply to Maria in this thread. I will try to find some historical/scientific evidence to support my assertions and get back to you. Stay tuned…

              O.

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                Niksmit,
                I did a quick Google and found the following entry on Wikipedia:

                “African-Americans in the United States

                This article contains weasel words, vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information. Such statements should be clarified or removed. (May 2010)

                Colorism in the United States is a practice that began in times of slavery due to white slaveowners’ assertion that any person black (African) or associated with blackness was inferior or lowly. Common practices of the time were to allow the slaves with the lighter complexion (more commonly the offspring of the slave masters and their slaves) to engage in less strenuous usually domesticated duties, while the darker, more African looking slaves participated in hard labor, which was more than likely outdoors.[3]

                Scientific studies conclude natural human skin color diversity is highest in black/sub-saharan African populations therefore many blacks/sub-saharan Africans or people of sub saharan African descent are naturally light skinned.[4]

                [edit]Brown paper bag test

                The “brown paper bag test” was a ritual once practiced by certain African-American and Creole fraternities and sororities who discriminated against people who were “too dark.” That is, these groups would not let anyone into the sorority or fraternity whose skin tone was darker than that of a paper lunch bag, in order to maintain a perception of standards. Spike Lee’s film School Daze satirized this practice at historically black colleges and universities.

                Along with the “paper bag test,” guidelines for acceptance among the lighter ranks included the “comb test,” which tested the coarseness of one’s hair, and the “flashlight test,” which tested a person’s profile to make sure their features measured up or were close enough to those of the Caucasian race.[5]

                Colorism is prevalent in the job application process as well; research shows that a light-skinned African-American male with a bachelor’s degree and mediocre experience is more likely to be hired for a typical job than a dark-skinned man with a Masters in Business Administration and past experience in the field.[6]

                [edit]Media and stereotypes

                While stated less explicitly, colorism has been portrayed in episodes of the NBC drama Homicide: Life on the Street.[7] Lighter-skinned African American superior officers Deputy Commissioner of Operations James C. Harris and Colonel George Barnfather appear to discriminate against main character Baltimore Police Lieutenant Al Giardello, a darker-skinned African American. Additionally, African American women have discriminated against Giardello on the grounds that his appearance is “too black”.[8]

                Along with the above example, a major issue in American society has been the fact the majority of media outlets (television, movies, advertising, etc.) choose to portray lighter skin people, because on average, that is the national preference. The (light to dark) hierarchy within the African American race is one that has existed since the time of slavery, but its problems and consequences are still very evident. Darker skinned blacks are more likely to have negative relationships with the police, less likely to have higher education or income levels, and less likely to hold public office. Darker skinned people are also considered less intelligent, less desirable (in women mostly), and are overall seen as a lesser people.[9]

                Studies have shown that when measuring education and family income, there is a positive sloping curve as the skin of families gets lighter. This does not prove that darker skinned people are discriminated against, but it provides insight as to why these statistics are recurring. Lighter skinned people tend to have higher social standing, more positive networks, and more opportunities to succeed than those of a darker persuasion. Scientists believe this advantage is due to not only to ancestors benefits, but also skin color, which coincides with the belief of colorism affecting peoples lives from past to present. In criminal sentencing, medium to dark-skinned African Americans are likely to receive sentences 2.6[clarification needed] longer than those of whites or light-skinned African Americans, and when a white victim is involved, those with more “black” features are likely to receive a much more severe punishment, reinforcing the idea that those of lighter complexion are of more “value.”[9]

                The perception of beauty can be influenced by racial stereotypes about skin color; the African American journalist Jill Nelson wrote that “to be both prettiest and black was impossible”[10] and elaborated:
                As a girl and young woman, hair, body, and color were society’s trinity in determining female beauty and identity, the cultural and value-laden gang of three that formed the boundaries and determined the extent of women’s visibility, influence, and importance. For the most part, they still are. We learn as girls that in ways both subtle and obvious, personal and political, our value as females is largely determined by how we look.

                As we enter womanhood, the pervasive power of this trinity is demonstrated again and again in how we are treated by the men we meet, the men we work for, the men who wield power, how we treat each other and, most of all, ourselves. For black women, the domination of physical aspects of beauty in women’s definition and value render us invisible, partially erased, or obsessed, sometimes for a lifetime, since most of us lack the major talismans of Western beauty. Black women find themselves involved in a lifelong effort to self-define in a culture that provides them no positive reflection.[10]

                [edit]Commercial

                In the United States, light skin is seen as more attractive than tanned skin. Studies have shown that light skin is preferred in all cultures and races. Skin whitening products sales grew from $40 to $43 billion in 2008.[11]

                In the African-American community, light skin is considered more attractive than dark skin. During slavery, light-skinned African-Americans were perceived as intelligent, cooperative, and beautiful.[12] They were more likely to work as house slaves. Light-skinned Blacks were also given preferential treatment by plantation owners and their henchmen. For example, they had a chance to get an education.[13] Dark African Americans worked in the fields and did not get an education.[14]

                [edit]Skin Color Paradox

                The Skin Color Paradox is an idea that deals with the issue of “being black,” meaning how African Americans identify themselves, as well as others with the same experiences or lifestyles. A major issue in this paradox deals with the inconsistencies between a persons socio-economical and cultural preferences and their political preferences. Going along with the colorism issue, the paradox exists due to the fact that lighter skinned and darker skinned African Americans seem to have different experiences (socioeconomically and culturally), yet in the past, and theoretically in the future, will continue to have similar political preferences that benefit the African Americans as a whole.[9]

                Political scientists would suggest that skin color is a characteristic perhaps as equally important as religion, income, and education, which explains why the paradox is so surprising, but studies show that skin color (or shade) has no real implications on actual political preferences. Another issue with the paradox is regarding Affirmative Action. Studies show that most African Americans that benefit from Affirmative Action come from families that are better educated and more well off, and historically this means that the lighter-skinned portion of the black race is receiving the majority of the aid, making it appear as if the race as a whole is being benefited.[9]

                [edit]The “Blue Vein Society”

                Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2007)
                Following the Emancipation, mulatto societies such as “The Blue Vein Society” came into prominence. Its members were often well-connected free-born or freed individuals of mixed African, European, and occasionally of Native American blood. To be eligible for membership, one’s skin color had to be pale enough that the “blue veins” on the underside of the arm were visible.

                Such restrictive organizations allowed its members and their offspring to meet, co-mingle and marry, thereby preserving what small privilege the mulatto elite had enjoyed before all slaves were set free. Uneducated, or economically disadvantaged mixed-race individuals, even those whose skin color was technically light enough to qualify them for admission, were rarely welcomed, demonstrating that there were more than color issues under consideration.

                The original “Blue Veins” were said to have been organized in New England. Their primary objective was to establish and maintain “correct” social standards among people who had achieved some social, educational and economic standing.[citation needed]
                [edit]”

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_based_on_skin_color#African-Americans_in_the_United_States

                If I find anything else, I’ll be sure to post it up.

                O.

                • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

                  Wikipedia? Really?

                  Surely you can do better than that. Or maybe you can’t. Never mind.

                  • Around the Way Girl

                    “Wikipedia? Really?”

                    Lol FIRST of all…and secondly, all that stuff doesn’t even substantiate the claim. I didn’t see anything that suggested that fair skin was a NATURAL preference for men across cultures, since the beginning of time, like he said. That was all about slavery and social conditioning. You’re continuing to disappoint, Obsidian…

                    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                      “Lol FIRST of all…and secondly, all that stuff doesn’t even substantiate the claim.”

                      O: OK, so both Wikipedia AND the PBS Skip Gates specials “Black in Latin America”, are specious – right? I just need to get clarity on the point here.

                      Second, I never said that those sources were definitive; but to date, it is interesting to note that my interlocutors haven’t offered ANY countervailing evidence either; their word, as Black Women, is supposedly enough to do the trick.

                      Um-hmm.

                      “I didn’t see anything that suggested that fair skin was a NATURAL preference for men across cultures, since the beginning of time, like he said.”

                      O: As I clearly noted above, I said that if I could find said sources online, I would be back to post them up. The day is still young…

                      “That was all about slavery and social conditioning. You’re continuing to disappoint, Obsidian…”

                      O: I don’t disagree; but even if that were true, it still doesn’t change the fact that lighter skinned Women are preferred over darker skinned Women, no matter what the cause.

                      Or are you “too disappointed” to agree with that?

                      O.

                    • Around the Way Girl

                      The burden of proof is on you, sir. Just back up what you’re saying…is that asking too much? If you would just do that then I would give you your props and be through with it. I appreciate a good sound argument, regardless of whether I “like” what’s being said or not.

                      But then again, don’t even bother. I’m going through and making my last comments, then I’m off to have some fun. I have a life. See you on the flip.

          • http://alexiswhite.com Alexis

            Black people have double eyelids..so couldn’t I just say the Koreans here get double eye lid surgery and curly perm their straight haor to make themselves look more black…?

            • coldsweat3

              i think Asians(Mongoloids) are the only group without double eyelids though so to say they are doing this to make them look black would be a stretch. As far as the reverse perm that both Koreans and white people get occasionally to make there hair different goes more to that point however, African Americans get perms and straighten their hair far more than white folks get perms for the purpose of making their hair curly.

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      “African-American women spend more per person on hair and beauty products — products where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look less black — than any other culture of women on the planet.”

      “Has he been to India?? Those broads have the skin bleach game on lock.”

      O: Indeed they do; but that has nothing to do with the FACT that Black Women spend HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, trying to look White.

      Fact. Please address?

      “Plus, besides straightening our hair (something that seems less and less en vogue (no hold on)) I don’t see many other products or services out there to whitetify Black woman. No sista is trying to get lipo suction out of her butt or get a nose job (besides Nene… and Latoya).”

      O: Two words: Jennifer. Hudson.

      “And with this, “the insanely quick turnaround proves that we can get sh*t done if we put our creative resources together.” <- I really think we tend to holler and mobilize over the wrong things. A quack scientist puts out a junk study, call Jesse. Our family structure is disintegrating, *crickets*."

      O: Very good point, and really does announce quite strongly, where our – or in this case it might be better to say, where Sistas – priorities lie. Fascinating.

      O.

      • Andi

        O: Indeed they do; but that has nothing to do with the FACT that Black Women spend HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, trying to look White.

        A. I would need to see the break down of this “half a trillion dollars.” How much of this is going toward perms vs make up (not to many sistas trying to use beige make up, unless they like looking gross) and natural hair care (a rapidly growing industry). Plus, I think it’s more than a little pretentious to say that the motivation of any Black woman buying haircare or make up products is to look white. Unless you’re pyschic…

        O: Two words: Jennifer. Hudson.

        A: I really don’t see how her personal efforts to loose weight have anything to do with this topic. Being thinner (and more than likely healthier) do not make you “more white.”

        O: Very good point, and really does announce quite strongly, where our – or in this case it might be better to say, where Sistas – priorities lie. Fascinating.

        A: This is not a “Sistas Problem”, this is OUR problem. And until Black men and women stop playing the blame game long enough to come together and do something about it, nothing will change.

        • coldsweat3

          @Andi The Asian dude wouldnt need to provide information on the motivations of black women trying to look white the fact that attractiveness is based on european standards and other cultures using steps to embody those even if it is subconsciously as im sure most of it is then regardless they are becoming “less black.” Natural hair is still easy to manage

          • Andi

            “Natural hair is still easy to manage”

            This is debatable (though I don’t necessarily disagree). But a lot of Black women are at a loss for how to take care of natural hair and style it in ways that are diverse, neat, and attractive.

            • coldsweat3

              This right here is my point… you stated:” But a lot of Black women are at a loss for how to take care of natural hair and style it in ways that are diverse, neat, and attractive.”

              you previously stated: I don’t think anyone is saying there isn’t a European standard of beauty in play.

              The inclusion of attractive in styling of the hair really goes back to your previous statement. European standards of beauty.

              • Andi

                By attractive, I simply meant pleasing to the eye. I don’t think we are so conditioned we believe that all non European things are not pleasing to the eye and vice versa. Look at the rise of the afro in the 70s.

                I think a lot of current Black women just aren’t sure of how to make their natural hair look, for lack of a better term, “fly.”

                • coldsweat3

                  Okay i agree with you on “I don’t think we are so conditioned we believe that all non European things are not pleasing to the eye and vice versa. ” I dont think thats the point that the Champ was trying to get at with todays post either. I think it was more of a thoughtful reflection the fact that “flyness” “attractiveness” and other things TYPICALLY have roots to Euro standards. Simple as that. No self-hatred but more of a well damn i guess what we do really is an attempt(subconscious) at that Euro standard. As far as others including brothas we often dont try to wear dreads because we feel as though we cant advance in the company with them.

                  It should be noted that the 70s when Afros were big was connected to the Black is Beautiful movement and embracing our natural state and to not play into Euro standards which further proves the “well damn” situation that Champ presented today.

                  • Andi

                    “I think it was more of a thoughtful reflection the fact that “flyness” “attractiveness” and other things TYPICALLY have roots to Euro standards. Simple as that. No self-hatred but more of a well damn i guess what we do really is an attempt(subconscious) at that Euro standard. As far as others including brothas we often dont try to wear dreads because we feel as though we cant advance in the company with them.”

                    I agree! *thumbs up*

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          A. I would need to see the break down of this “half a trillion dollars.”

          O: I posted it on Panama’s post on Kanazawa’s article last week. Please feel free to look it up.

          “How much of this is going toward perms vs make up (not to many sistas trying to use beige make up, unless they like looking gross) and natural hair care (a rapidly growing industry).”

          O: The report I posted up specifically discussed haircare products and services.

          “Plus, I think it’s more than a little pretentious to say that the motivation of any Black woman buying haircare or make up products is to look white. Unless you’re pyschic…”

          O: No; simple eyeball observation will suffice.

          O: Two words: Jennifer. Hudson.

          A: I really don’t see how her personal efforts to loose weight have anything to do with this topic. Being thinner (and more than likely healthier) do not make you “more white.”

          O: Uh, YES, it does. Please go back and read Kanazawa’s article.

          A: This is not a “Sistas Problem”, this is OUR problem. And until Black men and women stop playing the blame game long enough to come together and do something about it, nothing will change.

          O: No, it IS a “Sista’s Problem” because only they get to choose how they respond to the challenge being put on the table. It is not a problem Black Men can or should solve for them. It’s the same thing if short Men are reported as being seen as less sexually attractive than tall Men; the solution isn’t for short Women to form a kind of Justice League with short Men; the solution is for short Men to directly address the problem so as to overcome their perceived limitations. Luckily, for such Men, there is a viable solution: GAME.

          The question, is whether Black Women in aggregate, have the desire to attend Charm School in order to be Ladies.

          O.

          • whyaskquestions

            attend charm school to become ladies???

            I asked upstream, I’ll ask again…you don’t like black women at all do you? And I don’t mean just like in a romantic way. I mean you feel black women are intellectually and socially inferior?? Please be honest.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “attend charm school to become ladies???”

              O: Yes, that’s correct. Black Women are perceived to be mannish, aggressive, belligerent, and so forth. They have an image problem. Charm school helps alleviate these problems.

              “I asked upstream, I’ll ask again…you don’t like black women at all do you?”

              O: I thought I made this clear last week on Panama’s discussion of the Kanazawa issue; I am a great lover and admirier of Black Women.

              “And I don’t mean just like in a romantic way. I mean you feel black women are intellectually and socially inferior?? Please be honest.”

              O: No, I do not think they are socially or intellectually inferior. Never have, and don’t now.

              Honest enough for ya? ;)

              O.

          • Deeds

            A: I really don’t see how her personal efforts to loose weight have anything to do with this topic. Being thinner (and more than likely healthier) do not make you “more white.”

            O: Uh, YES, it does. Please go back and read Kanazawa’s article

            Wait a minute…losing weight means someone is trying to look more white. This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard. I mean someone losing weight could just mean that they are trying to get in shape, be healthier, look better. By losing weight curves would still be in the same proportion a person would just be smaller. People of all ethnicities struggle with weight issues. And the Kanazawa article saying on average black women have a higher BMI is just on average. Is the naturally thin black woman somehow less black?

            • Justme (the guy)

              Yeah, I’m with O except on the part about losing weight making you look more white. I get what he’s trying to get at though. Europeans introduced the slimmer=better outlook on beauty, but it’s not like Jennifer is now a toothpick. She’s still thick, just in a (presumably) healthier way…

              • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

                “Yeah, I’m with O except on the part about losing weight making you look more white. I get what he’s trying to get at though. Europeans introduced the slimmer=better outlook on beauty, but it’s not like Jennifer is now a toothpick. She’s still thick, just in a (presumably) healthier way…”

                O: Actually, this is not the case at all; Hudson is now so thin that even her own Man, Dave Okuda, has complained about it. Black Men like big Women, in aggregate. Other groups of Men, do not. Being “curvy” is seen as a Black aesthetic. Why anyone would even demand this be a matter of actual debate, is exhibiting signs of a tenuous hold on Reality…

                O.

            • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

              “Wait a minute…losing weight means someone is trying to look more white. This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard. I mean someone losing weight could just mean that they are trying to get in shape, be healthier, look better. By losing weight curves would still be in the same proportion a person would just be smaller. People of all ethnicities struggle with weight issues. And the Kanazawa article saying on average black women have a higher BMI is just on average. Is the naturally thin black woman somehow less black?”

              O: In the minds of many non-Black Men – YES.

              O.

        • keisha brown

          ftr

          unless you know JHud personally, to assert that her weight-loss is to achieve a white body is irresponsible.

          it’s ish like this that hold our community back. getting an education, eating healthy, getting exercise? why you doing all dat?? why you trying to be white?? as if black should equal = ghetto, ignorant, fried chicken, sloth and obesity.

          sigh.

    • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

      Were both of those statements from the same article?

      If so I give this ..“products where the main purpose of many of them is to make black women look less black — than any other culture of women on the planet.”.. a major side-eye.

      Honestly didn’t read the article, but did the Black women interviewed for this ‘fact’ actually say they were trying to be white? I can speak for personal experience..I don’t spend $100 or so on hair products to be white. I spend it for:

      Ease (some of the goop/scruncies/combs makes my hair easier to manage when I don’t have time to be creative)

      Understanding (OH..so THIS detangler doesn’t cause breakage? Gotcha)

      Enlightenment (Okay..chemicals I can’t spell ..though, cheaper, are no good)

      Negotiation (okay if I use this lotion to tame my hair, I won’t burn the hell out of you to keep you straight..shake on it?)

      Frustration (can I PLEASE have just one day without frizz?? No? F$*%!!!)

      Victory (Shampoo + Conditioner!! YES)

      and Truce. (OKAY..I’m going to go natural, just a little bit of oil to keep the scalp looking right the “curls” shiny and soft..deal?)

      — all this to say, some of us spend a lot of money on products just to figure our hair out. It’s a lifetime experiment that can get quite expensive. However, I think I have finally figured things out.. None of it has to do with me “wishing to be white”. I have never bought a weave or anything so you will have to find that answer from someone else. ;)

      • Andi

        “some of us spend a lot of money on products just to figure our hair out. It’s a lifetime experiment that can get quite expensive. ” <- This is a very good point :)

    • http://www.twitter.com/makinghisstory Evan McAuthur Kane

      DON’T ever change…;)

      • Andi

        :)

    • http://eloquence-inc.blogspot.com Eloquence, Inc.

      Because overall black women are still too poor to afford lots of invasive procedures not covered by insurance. As their incomes rise, there has been an increase in black women getting NOSE JOBS.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        Bingo.

        O.

    • IsOurChildrenLearning?

      I agree with a lot of this but I think that the lower rates of black women getting plastic surgery have less to do with self-acceptance and more to do with lack of funds.

    • Vanity in Peril

      I’d like to believe you but then I open up an Essence magazine and see 1000 photos of beautiful black women with bronzer, contour make-up brushed down the bridge of their nose to make it look less “Ethnic” and I feel we’re right back at square one. :(

    • Siobhan

      I’m not sure about the we spend more than “any other culture of women on the planet” but I actually wouldn’t be surprised. We do spend more than any other group of women in America, and since Americans are big spenders on the whole it could be true. Also beauty products in India are objectively much cheaper. Also, Indians whitening their skin actually predates European colonialism. They have just as much variation in skin color (especially as you travel from North to South) and fair skin is preferred for the same reasons it was previously desired in European societies: the connotations of status and wealth.

      I do agree with you on the priorities though. And on the beauty point, what I find is a real shame is that all this money is changing hands to change the way we look, and so few black people are benefiting financially from it. I think someone mentioned upthread the predominance of Asians in the black beauty industry.

  • http://thatswhatgemsaid.wordpress.com Gem Jones

    While getting a quack scientist fired isn’t really that big of a deal, the insanely quick turnaround proves that we can get sh*t done if we put our creative resources together.

    if we could rally this same collective outrage for something like govt budget cuts to education and increases to prison spending, we’d really make a damn difference in this world….

    • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

      Education! Don’t even get me started. I’ont trust anything that’s going on right now in that area or prisons–increased prison spending, privatization, adding prisoners to the census population for the town the prison is in and not from where they’re from, etc. etc.

    • Andi

      “if we could rally this same collective outrage for something like govt budget cuts to education and increases to prison spending, we’d really make a damn difference in this world….”

      *Shakes tambourine* Testify!

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      if we could rally this same collective outrage for something like govt budget cuts to education and increases to prison spending, we’d really make a damn difference in this world….

      i was thinking about turning this into a “things we also could be spending our resources on, since we proved that we can do it” post, but I figured it would happen in the comments. good job, gem.

    • miss t-lee

      …And there it is!! No Ginuwine.

    • http://pinchmycheekie.wordpress.com Cheekie

      *takes a seat under this comment, orders a mojito, and chills*

      • MsEvaHoney!

        *peach margarita on the rocks, no salt and pulls up a chair next to Cheeks* *church hug* Hey girl!

    • Around the Way Girl

      YES.

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      Ms. Gem Jones,
      Replies below:

      “if we could rally this same collective outrage for something like govt budget cuts to education”

      O: We spend MORE on public education that we ever have, especially in “at risk” districts like DC and Newark, with precious little to show for it. Please read your Thomas Sowell, “Black Rednecks & White Liberals”…

      “and increases to prison spending”

      O: Crime has dropped dramatically since the early 1990s, as a direct result of increases in prison spending, more cops on the streets, lengthier prison sentencing and the like, all of which has made the quality of life in BLACK AMERICA BETTER.

      I would think that would be something you could get behind?

      O.

      • coldsweat3

        re: @Obsidian-Crime has dropped dramatically since the early 1990s, as a direct result of increases in prison spending, more cops on the streets, lengthier prison sentencing and the like, all of which has made the quality of life in BLACK AMERICA BETTER.

        Exactly how has this made the quality of life in Black America better? Locking everyone up for prolonged periods of time for even very minor infractions just made alot of single black mothers. We have become a country with too much of a love for prison. I will agree that the increase of the cops on the streets has resulted in less crimes, however Gem was saying PRISON spending not increasing the amount of police officers on the street.

        Education has seen some budget cuts, clearly the population has increased and therefore we spend more but theres still a percentage drop in educational funding. I think the main issues regarding education in inner-city area is how education is subsidized through property taxes(obviously suburbs contribute more than apts and inner-cities have less home-ownership) as a result while educational spending overall has increased, minority areas still often lag significantly behind. While incresed funding alone wont suffice its a step in the right direction as there is a strong correlation between literacy, poverty and crime.

        • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

          “Exactly how has this made the quality of life in Black America better?”

          O: Less murder. Less rape (lowest on record since records of this sort began). Less assaults.

          “Locking everyone up for prolonged periods of time for even very minor infractions just made alot of single black mothers.”

          O: Perhaps; but maybe if they hadn’t gotten with Black criminals they would still have daddies for their babies.

          “We have become a country with too much of a love for prison.”

          O: Because we got tired of tolerating out of control violent street crime, the biggest victims of which are Black people themselves.

          “I will agree that the increase of the cops on the streets has resulted in less crimes, however Gem was saying PRISON spending not increasing the amount of police officers on the street.”

          O: Yes, I know. My response is that it is money well spent. This is reflected in the crime data.

          “Education has seen some budget cuts, clearly the population has increased and therefore we spend more but theres still a percentage drop in educational funding.”

          O: DC and Newark have among the highest per capita spending per student in the entire country. True or false?

          “I think the main issues regarding education in inner-city area is how education is subsidized through property taxes(obviously suburbs contribute more than apts and inner-cities have less home-ownership) as a result while educational spending overall has increased, minority areas still often lag significantly behind.”

          O: See above. And that’s before we count Mark Zuckerberg’s contribution…

          “While incresed funding alone wont suffice its a step in the right direction as there is a strong correlation between literacy, poverty and crime.”

          O: Please see Thomas Sowell’s Black Rednecks & White Liberals for a thorough study on Washington DC’s famed (and now infamous; even Panama has talked about this) Paul Lawrence Dunbar school and how far it has fallen, even as it and other inner city schools have gotten massive increases in school funding.

          O.

    • http://uphereoncloud9.com/ Wu Young, Agent of M.E.

      “if we could rally this same collective outrage for something like govt budget cuts to education and increases to prison spending, we’d really make a damn difference in this world….”

      Gemmie you’re right. II think it’a all a damn distraction sometimes.

  • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

    Allow me to quote myself:

    “Honestly, I think a lot of this stems from keeping us in our place. We haven’t fallen for the ‘fear of fat’ white women have fallen for. We really haven’t even fallen for the ‘you’ll die alone unmarried’ hype completely. So what’s left? Even in the piece of article it was noted that we think highly of our own selves. External forced don’t get why their assaults aren’t lowering our perception of self! ”

    They’re just throwing pasta at the wall that is our self-esteem and hoping one of the insults sticks and knows us down a peg.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “They’re just throwing pasta at the wall that is our self-esteem and hoping one of the insults sticks and knows us down a peg.”

      good use of analogy

    • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

      knows =brings

      It’s late!

    • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

      “They’re just throwing pasta at the wall that is our self-esteem and hoping one of the insults sticks and knows us down a peg.”

      O: OK, let’s examine this for a moment.

      First off, why would there be a “vast, Anti-Sista Conspiracy”? I mean, what do Sistas actually run, in American life? Most Sistas tend to be middle management cogs in the quasi-public sector wheels of the American economy. Indeed, most Sistas don’t even make strong five-figure salaries. So I fail to see how Sistas create such a threat to the power structure that it takes some kind of sustained Psy-Ops effort to bring them down.

      Second, again, how do you or anyone else here address what Kanazawa said about Black Men? He can’t be as “racist” as so many allege in light of this fact.

      Yes?

      Your response?

      O.

      • Sula

        O: OK, let’s examine this for a moment.

        Uh, no, let’s not. Next.

        • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

          Bwahahahaaa! I. Can’t. Breath!

    • IsOurChildrenLearning?

      I’m not going to give them that much credit. For the most part, we are already “in our place” and are such a small threat that there is no need to attack us. The author of that article is a lone wolf psuedo-scientist. as for the other things “marriage stats” well, they’re true. I just don’t see a bunch of media moguls sitting around plotting on our esteem.

    • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com wild cougar

      Cosign! And that’s why we win.

  • Anechoic

    Ladies. You are all beautiful. If the XY’s from other races can’t see, too bad, more for us.

    • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

      Actually, I think they do know it. It used to be non-Black men could secretly want to be with Black women based purely on some Jungle Fever curiosity. But now, non-Black men are dating and marrying Black women. While I’m still not sure Jungle Fever is not a part of it, they’re taking their appreciation for us public. While we aren’t marrying non-Black men at the rate Black men marry non-Black women, the numbers are rising. And since, for the most part, men ask women to marry, then it seems to me that more non-Black men are becoming comfortable with dating and marrying us.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        Ms. Smart,
        You comments don’t comport with numerous studies insofar as dating and the like onlne and so forth along interracial lines insofar as Black Women are concerned. OKCupid is but one of quite a few examples in this regard. In 2000 there were less than 5% of Black Women/White Men married couples.

        O.

        • niksmit

          Actually, Ms. Smart’s assertion is backed by studies (here’s one: http://pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf). Just because BW-WM marriages are still low compared to BW-BM marriages, does not mean that there hasn’t been an increase in these marriages. Furthermore, she said “non-Black men” which includes more than just white men. 5.5% is definitely an increase over 0.9%.

          • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

            I purposely used non-Black because Black women are marrying MORE than just white men.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “Ladies. You are all beautiful. If the XY’s from other races can’t see, too bad, more for us.”

      statements like these remind me of the matrix. we (people who believe black women are bangiing) are the morpheouses trying to convince neo (black women) that they are in fact the one, but the talk doesn’t matter as neo has to believe it himself.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        Excellently well put.

        O.

      • kid video

        Word.

      • Vanity in Peril

        Thanks for making me involuntarily ovulate with that posse pandering comment. Also, thank ya kindly. :)

        • Deeds

          lol

      • Yeah…So

        Uh thanks and all, but you saw this:
        African-American women consistently rate themselves (collectively and individually) more attractive than any other culture of women on the planet. Every objective measure of self-image in comparison to non-black women reflects this.

        … so what are you talking about? Clearly we do believe it… I think MEN are confused by what they think vs what is REALITY… a weave, press, perm etc etc etc doesn’t make me less black or mean that I want to be… come off it! (he would never say that heehee)

        • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

          I think they are under the assumption that because we react, that means it must be true. That’s a huge assumption.

        • http://tdlove.wordpress.com Tonya

          I think they are under the impression that because we react, that means it must be true. That’s a huge assumption.

    • CNotes

      @Anechoic

      “Ladies. You are all beautiful. If the XY’s from other races can’t see, too bad, more for us.”

      Thanks for this!

  • Kamala Jones

    Some Black women REFUSE to fess up and admit that hair perming and weaves are rooted in self-hatred. They just won’t do it. But, how is it not self-hatred when Black women are allegedly spending half a trillion dollars on hair care and weaves while most Black folks really don’t have a pot to piss in and a window to throw it out of? (source http://atlantapost.com/2011/05/11/what-spending-a-half-a-trillion-dollars-on-hair-care-and-weaves-says-about-us/)

    • DQ

      Alright…

      Just out of curiosity – who is the final arbiter on what does and doesn’t constitute self-hatred? Why does it seem that perms and weaves are held up as signs of self-hatred but not what black women eat, how they dress, how they talk, how they raise their families, or who they associate with?

      Does that matter too?

      Don’t those matter more?

      • Kamala Jones

        Just out of curiosity – who is the final arbiter on what does and doesn’t constitute self-hatred? Why does it seem that perms and weaves are held up as signs of self-hatred but not what black women eat, how they dress, how they talk, how they raise their families, or who they associate with?

        Great questions. I believe that a lot of what you mentioned are signs of self-hatred especially in this day and age when a lot of us, Black people, know better but refuse to do better.

        • DQ

          Yeah but I didn’t actually mention anything specific signs of self-hatred… I just mentioned some areas in which people could choose to try to evaluate others levels self-hatred (but seldom seem to do).

          I guess what I’m getting at is I don’t think that you can cherry pick one or two characteristics about a person and determine from afar that that person suffers self-hatred.

          • Kamala Jones

            I think you’re right. Determining self-hatred definitely depends on circumstantial evidence, a person’s history, etc.

      • http://eloquence-inc.blogspot.com Eloquence, Inc.

        Those are signs of it too.

        • DQ

          What are signs of it too? I didn’t name any specific signs.

      • keisha brown

        exactly.
        there are black folk who subscribe to the ‘speaking well = talking white’ theory.
        and it’s just as ridiculous.

    • http://ThinkPrettySmart.typepad.com Ms. Smart

      Oops! I mean to ask this here but it posted on the comment below…

      Where do women who have natural hair but chose to wear weaves as a protective style?