Kerry-washington_03

Get married.

Pay for dates.

Introduce her to his friends.

Approach her.

Let her know where he lives. 

Commit. 

Make long-term plans.

Be affectionate.

Be seen in public together.

Be seen online together. 

Claim her. 

Propose.

Give head. 

The actions listed above are just a prominent few of the many things I’ve heard…

1. Many women claim that—despite however many requests they’ve made—the men in their lives just aren’t interested in doing.

…and…

2. Many men claim that they just don’t do. 

Usually, when you start to dig deeper, you’ll find that the man’s reluctance to do these things is out of “principle.”

“You know I don’t believe in marriage.” he’ll say over an half-eaten plate of under-cooked garlic parm chicken wings. “You also know I love you. Why isn’t that enough?”

“You know we’re together, and I know we’re together.” he’ll remark while watching back episodes of Hannibal, “Why does it even matter if everyone else knows? What’s the point in telling people and having them all in our business?”

“I’m just sayin.” he’ll type while in the comments section of his second favorite blog. “It just doesn’t make any sense to automatically foot the bill on a first or second date. I mean, she got a job too. Why do I have to be the one to pay?”

Initially, their reasons will make perfect and practical sense. I mean, a marriage is just a piece of paper, right? Why does any one need to know about your relationship? And, what logical sense does it make to pay for a woman’s food if her ass makes more money than you do?

But, after the smoke clears and the dust settles, there’s only one realization left:

Those guys are full of shit. All of them. Every single one. 

How am I so certain?

Well, let’s say Beyonce happened to break up with Jay-Z or Zoe Saldana happened to be single (and happened to be dating brothas) or Rihanna happened to be sane. Basically, let’s say whoever the baddest and finest woman of the moment happened to be happens to be single and very interested in one of those guys. Do you really think that if they happened to have a shot at locking down Kerry Washington, they’d still be on that “I don’t believe in marriage” shit? Do you think they’d refuse to allow Nicole Beharie to post and tag pictures they’ve taken together on Facebook? Do you think that if they finally were able to somehow land a date with that bad-ass chick at the gym that they changed their workout schedule for just so they might “accidentally” bump into her one day, they wouldn’t be ecstatic about paying for the first few dates?

Basically, their “principles” are opportunity-based…which means they’re not even really principles. Just arbitrary rules he’s found no reason to break.

Now, I can already see a counterargument formulating in people’s heads.

“I mean, of course they wouldn’t act that way if they had a realistic shot at Beyonce, but how realistic is that scenario? I mean, I know I’m cute and all, but I’m not Beyonce.”

You’re right, hypothetical woman asking me this randomly specific hypothetical question. You’re not Beyonce. But, that’s exactly my point.

We (guys) talk a very good game. I know this for a fact, because I am one. We’ll say what we’ll do and won’t do, and we’ll appear to be very insistent, stubborn even, about our relationship mores and principles. But, for 99.9999999% of us, all of those principles are thrown out of the window once we meet someone we really, really, really, really like.

The source of much (not all, but much) of the dating and relationship-related angst I’ve witnessed and read about—and the source of the “full of shit”-ness cited above—stems from the fact that many women find themselves in situations where they’re dating someone who just isn’t very excited about them. Maybe they’re not actually Halle Berry or Kerry Washington or Nia Long or whoever, but if a man is excited enough about a woman, he’ll think of her (and treat her) with the same regard he would with any of them. She would effectively be his Beyonce. And, if she’s his Beyonce, there’s no f*cking way he’s insisting on dutch first dates, no f*cking way he hides her from his friends, and definitely no f*cking way he allows “I like you, but I’m not ready to be in a relationship right now.” to escape his lips.

And, for women upset that the guy you’re romantically involved with just doesn’t seem that excited about you and is dead-set on his principles, the “goal” isn’t to convince him to change his mind. Just, well, just find someone who doesn’t need any convincing. We’re all full of shit¹. We just need to find the right person to help prove it.

¹Women are (generally) full of shit too, but today just happens to be about a particular type of man’s particular type of full of shit-ness

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a contributing editor for EBONY.com. He resides in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes.

  • Surreal

    Just saying… It’s the truth.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      well said

      • amber

        Thank you

        • Kema

          .

  • Afropetite

    So clearly this is all a woman needs to get a man to pony up the dough for any and all dates….NSFW

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh7-JjGNgq4

    • Sahel

      I now see you in a totally different light after clicking this link

    • Yoles

      you know as much as that is my jam i love that song i don’t think that makes the dudes pony up the time and cash… yes it does keep him coming back but i dont know if that makes him want to be with you or to just constantly be inside you until your yanking expires that is (somehow i have yet to get a good explanation from a dude as to why if its good, its not good forever- fellas??)

      in closing…

      “aint have no teacher but this pussC been trained” ;)

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “yes it does keep him coming back but i dont know if that makes him want to be with you or to just constantly be inside you until your yanking expires that is (somehow i have yet to get a good explanation from a dude as to why if its good, its not good forever- fellas??)”

        this is true. great p*ssy is like great pizza. it’s great, for sure—tasty as a mothetrf*cker—but great pizza isn’t really all that much better than good pizza.

        • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

          LOL, well there it is.

        • http://www.whenopportunityknocked.com Nia

          but great pizza isn’t really all that much better than good pizza.

          Absolutely hilarious!

        • JLaMagnifique

          Let the church say Amen! *runs up & down the aisle*

        • Ainz

          Even pizza gets old

      • Demondog 06

        (somehow i have yet to get a good explanation from a dude as to why if its good, its not good forever- fellas??)

        wear and tear…..
        the desire for something new and different…
        variety…..
        good poon is not enough to be trapped to a chick until death……

        • Sweet GA Brown

          trapped tho?

      • Afropetite

        I was more so alluding to women who want to make sure they are actually getting called upon for subsequent dates if they don’t feel 100% secure in their facial aesthetics. I’m sure any woman worth her weight would aspire to have more than just a yankin’ snatch in order to keep a man interested but some men really don’t have the same standards which many women seem to think they do.

        Contrary to what folks have said on VSB and in my personal life, scandalous women have the ability to lock a man down with no less effort than another woman who “plays by the book”. For every man I’ve ever heard proclaim he’s out here dating chaste 8.25’s and above, I can show you the mother of his child or his ex who is in direct violation of that proclamation.

      • Jay

        I think the truth is that even if her P is AH-mazing, you still have to live under the weight of that being the only or main reason that you’re with said female. That is a fact that neither will be comfortable with and eventually both of you will have to deal with the fact that you don’t click when you have your clothes on.

    • Demondog 06

      heavens to mercatroid no….

  • Malik

    I think I’ll sit back and relax to Mulatu Astatke today while yall have at this.

  • Jess

    Welp.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      welp deez

  • Godzilla Jr.

    Well played, kind sir. A tip of the hat to you…

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      thanks and sh*t

  • b

    WTF. A) The title is called “Be his Beyonce,” as if this post would somehow tell you how to do that. 1.5) Your argument is if you were a finer woman a guy would not be an asshole and treat you better. 2b) you conclude the captain obvious conclusion that guys shape up for someone they like.
    Someone give me my time back.

    • Aly

      “1.5) Your argument is if you were a finer woman a guy would not be an asshole and treat you better.”

      No, that’s not what he’s saying.

      • Demondog 06

        at all….

    • haych

      Wow.
      – I’m pretty sure the title is ironic.
      – He’s not saying this at all, to my understanding he means every woman can be that “beyonce” to some man out there… And by Beyonce he doesn’t literally mean just a fine woman, it represents a concept; someone that a man takes a lot highly than his previous girls and throws all his “rules” out the window for.
      – It’s not really that obvious as it was just one point of a larger discussion about something that many people don’t realise when they’re in a situation with a guy like this.

      I hope what I wrote makes sense. It’s early.

      • Mak

        I couldn’t have said it better.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      you couldnt even read a blog fully to comprehension no wonder you’re bitterly single

      • Wild Cougar

        attack women much? ……b*tchassssssssss………

        • Ainz

          Lmaooooo

    • http://snarkyasiwant2b.wordpress.com Snarkychic

      I definitely didn’t get 1.5 from anything Champ wrote. I believe his premise was/is folk (not just men) break dating “rules” in direct correlation to their like for the person they’re with…for instance a man who doesn’t open doors will more than likely open every effing door he can get his hands on when he’s truly enamored with a woman. The subtext was any woman is capable of being a Beyonce (or whatever celeb you deem the baddest bish) to some man….

      • Sweet GA Brown

        Cosign

      • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

        Well said mamacita.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “I definitely didn’t get 1.5 from anything Champ wrote. I believe his premise was/is folk (not just men) break dating “rules” in direct correlation to their like for the person they’re with…for instance a man who doesn’t open doors will more than likely open every effing door he can get his hands on when he’s truly enamored with a woman. The subtext was any woman is capable of being a Beyonce (or whatever celeb you deem the baddest bish) to some man….”

        ***nodding head***

      • Asiyah

        Yeah that’s what I gathered too, Snarkychic. Which, again, is the reason why I have low self-esteem. Never been anybody’s somebody, ya dig?

        • Mak

          Give it time. He’ll come

      • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

        Nicely stated.

    • http://satcpsychology.wordpress.com MsVivienne

      And even with the Beyonce reference, I thought it meant when Jay-Z said, “Not for nothing, never happen, I’ll be forever mackin’.” And we all see that that changed. I never thought it meant finer/more beautiful. I thought it meant “his 10″. Not the world’s 10…his. That’s not just physical.

      • Malik

        I wonder if Beyonce still plays that line from time to time.

        • Judine

          lmao!

        • http://satcpsychology.wordpress.com MsVivienne

          Bet money she does…and giggles…and points

    • http://www.youtube.com/remthemulatto RemTheMulatto

      Everybody wants somebody better than them. Dudes that are 8s want 10s and dudes that are 10s want Beyonces. This post to me says “ladies, aim lower”. Either that or get it together to keep up the facade that he will fall in love with.

      Sometimes you meet someone who seems like she is your Beyonce. That is until the masks come off. Then you gotta put in work to make it work, and nobody wants to do that anymore. Until you get over yourself and choose to commit to someone on your level you’ll be solo indefinitely. If you aim too high or too low, somebody’s gonna get sick of somebody.

      • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

        Everybody wants somebody better than them. Dudes that are 8s want 10s and dudes that are 10s want Beyonces. This post to me says “ladies, aim lower”. Either that or get it together to keep up the facade that he will fall in love with.

        I agree that we all someone better than us (or at elast on our level). We definitely don’t want worse! But i believe that it says “ladies, wait for the man that will WORK for you.” We tend to cherish what we work for, whether it be a house, car, woman, wahtever That’s just how men are.

        She ain’t gotta front either, at least anymore than we do. And the term “Beyonce” isn’t just physical in this case. If it’s all encompassing, i think that’s the outer beauty is the starting point (cause us men must be physically attracted to y’all ladies. It ain’t the ONLY thing, but it is the price of admission). And when you start to get past the physical and see that she’s your type in whatever other areas you like/need and see that she’s your equal in THOSE areas too, that’s a Beyonce.

        But fellas, be warned. You can’t eat steak on a Burger King budget. Yesterday we talked about how women cost money that we may/may not wanna pay. But we’re gonna pay the cost of whatever we want. Pu$$y got a price tag.

  • b

    WTF. A) The title is called “Be his Beyonce,” as if this post would somehow tell you how to do that. 1.5) Your argument is if you were a finer woman a guy would not be an asshole and treat you better. 2b) you conclude the captain obvious conclusion that guys shape up for someone they like.
    I should’ve known better when the picture of Kerry Washington was under the Beyonce title. Someone give me my time back.

  • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

    “But, for 99.9999999% of us, all of those principles are thrown out of the window once we meet someone we really, really, really, really like.”

    I think all of this can apply to both sexes. Both men and women will talk a good game about not wanting to do this or that, until the right person comes along. Then we break all of our rules, happily.

    I mean, there’s a lot of stuff I say I won’t do but, if AK were to appear on my doorstep…… ;-)

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      the fire yall make…

      • Sweet GA Brown

        you took the words from my fingertips

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

        If only.

    • Todd

      I’m shocked, SHOCKED that you have said this about Alicia Keys. *here’s the website of the $extape Todd* SHOCKED!

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

        Lol.

    • Demondog 06

      hmmmm….a alicia keys, d-dog and val sandwich….

      i can dig it!

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

        Nope, no sammiches on the menus.

    • Asiyah

      Very true, Val. I always tell my friends that that’s why I try my best to keep my mouth shut as to what I’m “looking for” or what I “want” in a man. All those rules go out the window. We all talk a good game but at the end of the day we end up looking stupid and hurting those we rejected on account of our arbitrary and meaningless reasons.

      • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

        True. Those lists of what we supposedly want and will or will not do can get very long. And, the longer they get the more we become unsatisfied, until the right person comes along and we throw those lists away.

      • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

        ~ We all talk a good game but at the end of the day we end up looking stupid

        also known as :: dont talk about it, be about it ::

        • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com Val

          Yep.

        • Asiyah

          exactly what I’ve been saying lately. less talking, more doing.

          • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

  • blackphilo

    “Do you really think that if they happened to have a shot at locking down Kerry Washington…?”

    You could just speak for yourself and like-minded men, instead of imagining–with no argument or evidence whatsoever–that nearly all men simply must think the way you do. This would be a whole lot more honest, respectful, and smart than insisting that naysaying men–regardless of what they’ve tried to explain–are lying or self-deceived, or merely too cheap to eagerly pay for dates.

    No, I truly wouldn’t be interested in “locking down” Kerry Washington, Beyonce, Zoe Saldana, or other such women of your dreams. First, I have no idea how locking down a woman is even possible in an age where divorce is a norm, and the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women (for reasons usually not related to major violations of the marriage contract). But maybe you happen to reside in one of the few covenant marriage states. Second, if I were trying to lock down a woman, entertainer types would be far down on my list of candidates, for various reasons (“insecurity” not being among them). We have no real basis for believing (PR hype aside) that such women of your dreams would make good long-term partners and mothers.

    It’s possible I’ve missed the joke. So I will admit that if many women could somehow transform themselves to “be [and remain] his Beyonce” in terms of tangible assets, BM interest in marriage–or, at least, in paying for speculative dates–would dramatically rise.

    • Kema

      But what about the woman of YOUR dreams?

      As Val said this is true for both sexes. I am not a domestic woman and have often scoffed at women that are subservient to men. But I have been with a man that made me forget about alladat. Lol!

      Not saying you will but I think this goes for most people.

      • Sahel

        So in other words,your open to change your views if the right man comes along

        • mena

          Unless it’s something completely out in left field, the answer is yes.

          • Sahel

            You dont sound very hopeful that it may happen ey

            • mena

              No. I’m saying yes that views can be changed unless it is something completely out in left field. I have personally never been sprung to that extent but there is always a possibility.

        • Kema

          Nah.. I’m not switching religions or anything but I’m sure there are a few things I dont do now that would become more attractive wth the right one.

          • Sahel

            Threesomes ey

    • mena

      Yes. You missed the point entirely.

      The post is saying if your dream girl came along, all of the things you said you won’t do will, 9/10, go out the window.

      • blackphilo

        Rather, I was hoping that the point might have been meant as a joke. (The finale posted later didn’t change the substance.) I’m saying that even if I believed in the notion of a “dream girl,” my sensibilities and values on the whole aren’t going out any window over her.

        How can I know this in advance? Because what I’m most attracted to for purposes of a serious relationship will already be mostly aligned with my sensibilities and values. Without that, I won’t feel moved enough, no matter how fine she looks in the film, gym, bar, or bed. I’m hardly alone, I think, among men.

        • mena

          I think for the majority of people, myself included, what Champ says stands. That if you met the person of your dreams that blew you away on every front, the things you said you would never do, you would start doing. There would be no hesitation in your actions. Do you read BGAE? He calls this the Game Changer.

          • Kaname

            That man’s blog kills me every time.

            • Kema

              Yes! He has kicked my emotional puppy a few times.

          • Asiyah

            Yeah, the Game Changer is real, folks. S/he may not be as fly as movies and works of fiction make them out to be, but they do exist. But beware: you may not be a Game Changer.

          • lph

            Who is BGAE

            • mena

              Black Girls Are Easy. I am now down to two blogs that i follow. BGAE and VSB.

            • Ms. Bridget

              Black Girls Are Easy. It’s a blog

        • Rogman

          chucchhh

          The idea that someone would wholesale make me throw out my principles(which I have good reasons for having) because I am so enraptured by their presence.

          Na…….

          That aint happening

          • StopMakingSense!

            The “right woman” can make a “certain type” of man lose his sensibilities and change up. However, that man wasn’t really grounded to begin with.

            While it is the content of many dreams, fantasies, RomComs, movies and prime time soaps, in reality the guy who changes everything when he meets the right woman just isn’t stable enough to build a LTR with. Blows wherever the wind blows and just might change his mind again, when the wind blows in the other direction.

            It’s cute, it’s flattering to be pedestalized, but really honestly, that’s not the guy you should invest in building with. That’s somebody more caught up in the fantasy (ego) than reality.

            • Angel Baby

              I agree with all of this (only in extreme cases)! It’s more so bc that person isn’t “grounded”. Most people in love do things they wouldn’t normally do. But the person who changes up dramtically and places you on a pedestal you can’t live up to once the “honeymoon” phase is over… is a dangerous person to give your heart to.

    • Nomadanare

      I was just about to make this argument. All you’re showing us is that in these situations Champ would throw out his principles for prime perception ass. This says nothing about other men and is dangerous advice to give to women. Have you considered the implications of what you’ve written? Basically, if you’re not his Beyonce he has every right to not give you what you ask, regardless of whether its ridiculous to ask for it or not. In addition you’ve given permission for very desirable/attractive women to demand outrageous things because they’re desirable. Third what about women that will for all intents and purposes never be anyone’s Beyonce? They’re just out of luck for a healthy relationship? The tacit assumption that anyone’s principles are situationally dependent is very dangerous relationship advice to give and sounds a lot like some of the specious arguments Obsidian would make with colorful euphemisms thrown in.

      • Sweet GA Brown

        “Basically, if you’re not his Beyonce he has every right to not give you what you ask, regardless of whether its ridiculous to ask for it or not.”

        This happens everyday. Men and women, alike, dont give their all to every person they are with but they will put forth the extra effort for the person they are most interested in.

        Champ will have to correct me if Im wrong but I thikn what he meant by using Beyonce, Kerry Washington, Zoe Saldana, and a sane Rihanna is someone that is physically attractive but is driven and on top of her ish. Someone that seems to be down to earth, but classy and gives off a well rounded vibe. If this is what he meant then you might not treat Fantasia, Trina Braxton, Ciara, or Chilli the same. However, I do understand that everything is on a case by case basis. Fantasia could be your queen while Zoe is smash material.

        • mena

          Lawd yes! People are way too caught up on the characters and not what he is saying.

          What he wrote is plain and simple. It shouldn’t be that hard to follow.

          • Demondog 06

            i mean fo’real tho..it’s not rocket science

            this is the problem with so called very smart people…..over analysis of everything…

            • NomadaNare

              Um…. it seems that if you have a problem with the “over-analysis” given by “very smart people” maybe a site called Very Smart Brothas isn’t the place for you?

              • Rewind

                Sometimes smart people do stupid things milady.

                All he means is…you don’t need to overanalyze everything just because you’re smart.

              • Demondog 06

                perhaps…….but my point remains the same

        • Nomadanare

          Maybe I wasn’t clear. I understood Champ’s metaphor when i wrote the original statement. Replace Beyonce and prime perception ass with dream woman and the argument is exactly the same.

          • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

            I see where you’re coming from.
            One of the gems i pulled from this was to go for who i want, because i’m MUCH MORE likely to treat them well because they are of VALUE to me. Why would we be with someone we didn’t value? It’s just doesn’t make sense.

            I think you may have constrcuted yourself a bit of straw man argument here by reaching and assuming that Champ was giving men the idea that they can do whatever to whoever, and same for attractive women. Taking advantage of someone and love are not the same things, and it’s dangerous to get them twisted.

            And let’s just be honest about the dating world as it pertains to black women. These streets is REAL for y’all. After stats and standards and all that sh*t, there simply aren’t enough men to go around. I really do wish it were a different story, but that’s the ugly truth.

            • NomadaNare

              If there is a strawman, I don’t see where it is, so I would appreciate it if you explained how what I’m saying is fallacious. Other than that, I think you’ve got the point of view wrong here. I’m not saying that men can/will do whatever they want, (although I do believe they will do that anyway) but that the message given to women are bad ones. What I got from this post and later comments are: 1. All men are mutable objects. 2. If you are fly enough/[insert intentionally vague qualifier here], you can bend them to your will. 3. If you are not fly enough to make a man feel that way about you, you don’t have the right to ask him to do anything. 4. Your only options are to select other guys or get more fly. Just from the first point, this type of thinking is wrongheaded: all people’s principles are not plastic. From this statement alone the entire thing falls apart, let alone the conclusion.

              • http://satcpsychology.wordpress.com MsVivienne

                I didn’t get that at all…but I understand your point. I thought the Beyonce metaphor was just Champ for “if he wants you”. Not if he’ll “take you”.
                Because I speak shoes, let me say it this way. There are some shoes I got because they were on sale, front and center in the window, and I tried them on 3 times and walked around and convinced myself they were worth the 98% off. Sometimes I fell in love with them and wore them out. Most times I wore them a few times, and then went with the shoes I liked.
                But the Louboutins I saved up for? That I made folk wash their hands before handling the box? I didn’t wait for a sale. I started putting stuff in place to get them.

                Same here. Be with someone who wants you. Not just because they’ll take you because you had the MAC perfect, the right jeans to make your booty look right, and cooked his favorite meal. To the right man, the one who wants you, those things are icing. He has to want the cake to not share it.

              • http://WWW.terryodis.wix.comtodis MicTheMessenger

                It’s not an issue of right or wrong.

        • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

          Its not about a “dream woman” because then folks can make the argument that such woman doesnt exist…anyone who has been in love can attest to what Champ is saying….hes not saying your values and morals go out the window….he’s saying that the right person–regardless of how they look, what they make, how educated they are–someone whom you connect with so powerfully, can evoke a change in you. Not a change for the worst….but maybe those childish rules and antics bitter folks like to play (read: any advice in Act Like a Lady, Think Like a Man) would be quickly reconsidered.

          I didnt give my current girlfriend the time of day for almost two years because I was soooo focused on what was supposed to be my ideal match (the fyne athletic men, the vixen women)….then when we finally started spending time together, it was like HOLY SH*T, this woman has every quality I could ever ask for….and slowly but surely, I started giving up the bs “standards” ….in essence, my girlfriend helped me call myself out on my nonsense. Champ is right. If you dont agree, then that just means you havent met THAT kind of mate yet. Lets not skew his words tooo much.

          • blackphilo

            “If you dont agree, then that just means you havent met THAT kind of mate yet. Lets not skew his words tooo much ”

            Please tell me this is part of a running insider joke.

          • Yoles

            i totally co-sign Bunni…

            finding that *person… changes everything, everything

            *there can be more than one of that person throughout a lifetime

            • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

              Yup. Just cuz a person helps you shed your BS exterior, doesnt mean youre meant to be with them. Thats a hard lesson to learn.

              • Kema

                Uh huh *sheds a tear*

              • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                ~ doesnt mean youre meant to be with them

                you are meant to be with them :: to learn. once you have learned, you are free to move forward.

                for a long time i mourned not being with the men who got me to this point but now, in retrospect, God Bless Us Both !!

                • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

                  True indeed, Esa.

                  • http://missrosen.wordpress.com esa

                    ~*~

              • Rubies

                LISTEN…I am going through this right now plus he’s the first man I have ever loved I have been a hot mess since Sat. This was perfectly stated.

          • Nomadanare

            Way to do precisely what you accuse me of doing. Look past the language and semantics to see what I’m trying to say. Replace dream woman, with anything you can come up with. The term is purposefully nebulous. If you feel I’m not qualified to comment because I haven’t met whomever you deemed necessary, fine. However the argument still stands.

      • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

        @Nomadanare:
        “I was just about to make this argument. All you’re showing us is that in these situations Champ would throw out his principles for prime perception ass.”

        O: Rubbish; I think everyone’s on the ball enough to know what Champ was talking about, which was that he was using Beyonce as a kind of shorthand for “Desirable Female” – and in this respect, yes, you are right, that is context dependent, which depends on the guy in question. I’m not a huge fan of Beyonce personally, but the fact remains that if Ole Girl ain’t hot enough for the guy she wants to lock down, NOTHING HAPPENS.

        Period.

        And THAT’S the point Champ’s making (please note that he mentioned more than just Beyonce, by the way.

        “This says nothing about other men and is dangerous advice to give to women.”

        O: Again, nonsense. See above.

        “Have you considered the implications of what you’ve written? Basically, if you’re not his Beyonce he has every right to not give you what you ask, regardless of whether its ridiculous to ask for it or not.”

        O: That’s right – and he does it, because he can. Like all of us do.

        “In addition you’ve given permission for very desirable/attractive women to demand outrageous things because they’re desirable.”

        O: LOL. Trust me, very desirable/attractive Women hardly need his or any other Brotha’s “permission” to set their asking price out on the open mating market…

        “Third what about women that will for all intents and purposes never be anyone’s Beyonce? They’re just out of luck for a healthy relationship?”

        O: Answer – they *can* be, sure. The simple truth of the matter is that everyone will not mate. The single best thing a non-Beyonce Woman can do to improve her odds outchea in these streets is:

        1. Spend ALL her free time improving her appearnace

        AND

        2. Lower her standards

        BOTH of which have everything to do with today’s topic and discussion. More here:

        The Obsidian Guide On How To Please Your Mate
        http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/133295

        “The tacit assumption that anyone’s principles are situationally dependent is very dangerous relationship advice to give and sounds a lot like some of the specious arguments Obsidian would make with colorful euphemisms thrown in.”

        O: Ha! So sayeth Mr. Just Be Yourself. You just can’t make this stuff up.

        Listen, fool – *situationally dependent principles* not only happens ALL THE TIME, it ESPECIALLY happens when it comes to matters of mating, and BOTH Men AND Women do it. Simply put, both sexes get what they can afford and bargain/barter for out on the open mating market. More desirable Women are in a position to demand more; lesser desirable Women, not so much.

        Being a highly educated, “strong” or “independent” (Black) Woman, does NOT make her more attractive in the eyes of (Black) Men, and if anything can actually work AGAINST her. Being those things only winds up being a net positive IF she’s hot; if not, all it winds up doing is pricing her outta the market in terms of her assortatively appropriate mates, for the reasons I’ve laidout in today’s commentary.

        All of this is laidout out in the works of Buss and others…

        …where is YOUR sources?

        Hmm?

        LOL

        O.

        • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

          awwww f*ck. I’ve actually agreed with most (but not all) of what Obisdian said lol. *checks out the window for flying pigs, UFO’s and locusts falling from the sky*

          I think today’s post gon bring out every Bitter Betty on the internets….but, this shall be fun nonetheless.

          • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

            hell yeah this is gonna be fun to watch.

        • mena

          Well said.

          Some people are looking to just disagree today.

        • Yoles

          Oh Obie… i mostly agreee :D

        • Kema

          Good thing I’m Beyonce’esque. *flips hair* Bow down!

          • http://www.TheNewEve.com Bunni

            I knew it. Bet you have a whole closet full of onesies and high heels too :-)

            • Kema

              I dont but that may be an investment I should look into.

            • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

              Man look. These onesies is the best thing out since summer dresses and patterned leggings.

        • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

          Agreed.

        • NomadaNare

          O, I could spend the time debating and refuting most of the arguments you’ve made above (while again asking you to provide actual sources, like the papers your textbook are based on), but I don’t have time for someone that attempts to use the guise of debate to insult other people in order to increase their self esteem, which is what it appears you’re intent on doing. I am not the only one that says this, however I have engaged you because sometimes I enjoy debates with you, but I’ve told you about this before. I go out of my way to be respectful of anyone with which I communicate and if you can’t respect me, then all further comments from you will be ignored.

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Nomada:
            “O, I could spend the time debating and refuting most of the arguments you’ve made above”

            O: Then why don’t you, instead of dissembling and rambling about?

            “(while again asking you to provide actual sources, like the papers your textbook are based on),”

            O: The studies and papers are right there in the bibilographies of the texts I’ve cited; in the case of Buss, TEOD, some *30 pages* worth? Cmon.

            “but I don’t have time for someone that attempts to use the guise of debate to insult other people in order to increase their self esteem,”

            O: Yea, because I really need to put you down in order to make myself feel better about myself – please, do not flatter yourself…

            “which is what it appears you’re intent on doing.”

            O: I am intent on putting out factual information for the express benefit of my Brothas outchea in these streets, because quite frankly, no one else gives a damn. There, I said it…

            “I am not the only one that says this, however I have engaged you because sometimes I enjoy debates with you,”

            O: It shows…

            “but I’ve told you about this before. I go out of my way to be respectful of anyone with which I communicate and if you can’t respect me, then all further comments from you will be ignored.”

            O: Hallelujah! I’ll drink to that…

            O.

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        “In addition you’ve given permission for very desirable/attractive women to demand outrageous things because they’re desirable”

        no. what i’m saying is that women interested in serious relationships should be with men who find them to be that desirable. everything is relative.

        • h.h.h.

          “no. what i’m saying is that women interested in serious relationships should be with men who find them to be that desirable. everything is relative.”

          what if the women aren’t attracted to the men that find them desirable and would be interested in serious relationships with them?

          do they get the “tough break, negro” speech, or the ‘don’t settle!” speech?

          • http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com Obsidian

            @Triple H:
            “what if the women aren’t attracted to the men that find them desirable and would be interested in serious relationships with them?”

            O: Then…nothing happens.

            “do they get the “tough break, negro” speech, or the ‘don’t settle!” speech?”

            O: Both; plus the following advice if they want better:

            1. Spend ALL their free time improving their appearance

            and

            2. Lower their standards

            Next question?

            O.

          • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

            “what if the women aren’t attracted to the men that find them desirable and would be interested in serious relationships with them?”

            if they want to be in serious relationships, they’re left with two choices

            1. Be more attractive

            or

            2. Become attracted to more different types of men.

            I’ve written about this before here, actually.

            • h.h.h.

              i agree with what you’re saying, Champ. i just feel that advice isn’t heeded, much.

              apparently we in this society try our hardest to fight our superficial and materialistic tendencies (well, most of us do) but when it comes to relationships, one person will probably be feeling another a lot more.

              • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

                I’ve heard the argument that a man should always be feeling his woman more than the other way around. Y’all think this is true?

                • Rogman

                  Any man that is in a relationship where he feels the woman more than she does him is just courting disaster.

                  • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

                    This is what i believe. IN situations like this, i’ve seen men lack the self-control and common sense necessary to lead a woman and make wise decisions.

                    I need no p*ssy that makes me irrational and crazy.

                  • kinghenry

                    @Rogman- real spit right there

                • mena

                  At the beginning, yes.

        • NomadaNare

          Okay, but you base that statement on the idea that as a whole, men’s principles are mutable dependent upon the level of attraction/attachment/whatever the guy feels for the girl. I disagree with this. There are some principles/ideas that I won’t give up for anyone, and they’re not fundamental morality questions (ie should one kill, etc.), but ideas that are directly related and limited to the purview of the relationship. I think you enter a very dark place when you start trying to decide how attractive you must be or how much you must lower your standards before you change someone’s principles. The solution should not be how much can I change whomever I decide to date, at the their core, but assuming what they say is how they truly feel selecting for those whose values wants and weaknesses are properly aligned with your own.

      • MissB!

        This is no “relationship advice”, What he’s referring to is that sometimes we have a specific set of, call it rules, likes-dislikes, principles, whatever, that go right out the window when we meet the one. At no time he has said that it’s ok to have outrageous demands, or that it’s ok to accept less because you are not Beyoncé. He’s saying that everyone can be THAT special to someone out there, that will change their views on commitment, chivalry, etc.

        Some people are just so angry that they fail to take certain topics lightly. I really doubt that Champ meant to give life changing advice!

        Take it easy.

        • NomadaNare

          I think I’ve adequately responded to your thoughts in other comments, please read around if you wish to continue.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “…and the vast majority of divorces are initiated by women”

      this is a misleading stat. women are the ones to usual be the ones who actually file the divorce paperwork. But, being the one to file the paperwork and being the one to actually want the divorce are completely separate things.

      Also, remove the celebrity aspect and just think about whoever your dream woman happens to be. You’re telling me that you wouldn’t “alter” some of your behaviors if you knew that’s all it took to be with her?

      • http://opinionatedmale.com Medium Meech

        It’s a big assumption to say that the person filing for divorce isn’t the one who wants it. For what it’s worth, the higher divorce rate among women holds constant for same sex marriages.

      • blackphilo

        The stat is not very misleading, though your subsequent claim is certainly true. I can supply consensus social science citations if that would make a difference to you.

        I honestly have never thought in terms of a “dream woman.” There are various traits that I might find ideal in a woman partner, and I suppose they could be bundled to build a dream woman prototype (DW). So let’s work with her.

        Of course I would be prepared to “‘alter’ some of [my] behaviors” for DW as compared to women I wasn’t nearly as interested in. I’m not a fanatic; nor have I ever had so many options that I can afford to be uncompromising. But with this (re)formulation you’re shifting the goalposts.

        The issue had been about “principles”–or, as I put it, serious “sensibilities and values”–and whether a man, for the sake of securing his DW, would always be prepared to give them up. If all you meant, or mean now, is that a truly interested man will be willing to compromise on some of his behaviors and expectations, I wouldn’t disagree. This is common sense and, for most any man, plain necessity–DW or no DW.

        Yet quite a few lovely BW are cleaving to the stronger formulation. Many of these ladies seem incredulous and attitudinal that there are BM who, as matter of princple, are not willing to do whatever it lawfully might take to secure even a DW. Paradoxes abound.

        • http://www.terryodis.wix.com/todis MicTheMessenger

          Yet quite a few lovely BW are cleaving to the stronger formulation. Many of these ladies seem incredulous and attitudinal that there are BM who, as matter of princple, are not willing to do whatever it lawfully might take to secure even a DW. Paradoxes abound.

          I think it’s because like Champ states, we tend to prefer the path of least resistance. Which in turn,
          makes the dating scene a damn lottery. A lottery where men are picking 2-3 numbers and women have the odds of a pick 6.

      • NomadaNare

        And it again appears that Black Philo and I are on the exact same page. But to answer your question, it depends on which behaviours must be altered. If it’s something as simple as leaving the toilet seat up, then that’s an easy trade, however if it’s something like I can’t have female friends or that I must change my religion to be with you, then I can provide an emphatic and resounding “no” to both of those, not just on personal grounds, but on moral/personal code grounds as well. Looking at both your original and following arguments, you have not made this distinction and instead have said something as strong as: “Those guys are full of shit. All of them. Every single one.” Is this what you intended to say? If not, clarify.

        • blackphilo

          We are indeed on the same page today, NomadaNare. I applaud your stamina, and for trying to keep the middle “S” in VSB.

          Here’s hoping that you and O can work out a truce. You seem like a principled idealist. O seems like a principled pragmatist. I certainly understand why you’re an advocate for serious Black relationships and relationship strategies. But I’m also sympathetic to O’s view that men, as long as they aren’t viciously harming or deceiving, should have the freedom and skills to better pursue intimate arrangements that suit them.

          Despite the testy personal dynamic that has developed online between you, I don’t think your perspectives are necessarily at odds.

          • NomadaNare

            No thanks needed, but it is appreciated nonetheless.

            I find your POV of O and I’s conversations/debates interesting. I’m curious as to why you classify me as a (principled) idealist and not a pragmatist? I am just as interested in realistic solutions to problems encountered by black people in relationships as O (perhaps even more so), the problem is, I just don’t believe that ‘Game’/PUA/MRA present a practical solution to problems encountered by black men, let alone men in general. We could get into why I feel this way if you wish, but I don’t think it’s necessary to go there. The simple summary is: I only advise what has worked for me, not what I think will work. Apparently, what has worked for me (being and bettering oneself, encouraging real and intimate connections with any woman I am romantically engaged with, taking responsibility for my actions and their consequences, and above all else stressing honesty and transparency in communication) is the antithesis of ‘Game’ propaganda (and this even without addressing the ‘science’). So be it, but the truth is in the results. I know what mine are and I wouldn’t prefer it any other way.

            Barring the lack of results, if O were to make a proper scientific argument, I’m sure our communication wouldn’t be nearly as antagonistic. I don’t actually believe he can, but honestly that remains to be seen. I remain open to his comments whenever he decides to provide citations for the papers/conference proceedings/etc. that support his arguments and bridle his insults. There is no need for that in a constructive debate/argument/conversation.

            • blackphilo

              “… being and bettering oneself, encouraging real and intimate connections with any woman I am romantically engaged with, taking responsibility for my actions and their consequences….”

              This seems consistent with a broad conception of game. Add striving to better understand what makes many females tick and how a male can make more of them tick–that’s pretty much all game (which you already know isn’t equivalent to PUA) comes down to. So I’m not sure why you seem determined to dismiss game (and even MRM) in toto. Anyway, such disputes really aren’t my issue.

              (As I’ve stated before, game’s scientific bona fides ultimately don’t matter in the field, and I have no stake in worrying about the integrity of the purported science. Btw, I’m a guy with no proper “game,” though I wish I had some when I was younger.)

              “… and above all else stressing honesty and transparency in communication)….”

              This would help to explain why I characterized you as a principled idealist. In my experience, and beyond dealing with women, transparency is often not a winning strategy and can even be self-defeating. So I am only usually transparent. But I share your approach to honesty, even at the cost of winning.

              I hope these remarks shed some light on where I’m coming from, as well as why I attempted to facilitate a truce. I’ll try to mind my own going forward.

        • Rogman

          BANG ON

  • it never rains in SoCal

    I kind of feel like Obsidian will hijack this post and change the topic; this blog seems kind of rushed. *going back to lurking*

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      re-read. wasn’t done writing when it originally posted

      • Marshal

        IDK what is going on with the “newness” of VSB, but this is the 5th day that my comments have went isolated from the rest of the message board. Me No Likey :-/

        NomadaNare & blackphilo seem to be the 2nd and 3rd Legs to go with Obsidian on the Black Intellectual Triangle of Thought, though I’m surprised O is on the Good Side of VSS today.

        Now, while everybody is jumping on those two, they do make Good Points in the sense that like an Orthodoxy-Minded Person of Religion, there are Orthodoxy-Minded People of Values, who will not Bend, Break or Compromise their ideals for Nothing and Nobody- not even a Beyoncé, Kerry Washington, Zoe Saldana, Rihanna, or any chexy woman; and there are Women who are the same way towards Idris Elba, Morris Chestnut, Tyrese, Trey Songz, or any very attractive guy. At LEAST give them that and Concede/Admit that these people exist.

        NomadaNare & blackphilo in turn ALSO NEED to Acknowledge that there are Men and Women that Have and Will cause their Romantic Interests to toss any and possibly all their standards, preferences, and “traits” out of the window. It Happens; Heck, I Did my Damn Self and while my situation has been On-Off for the past 6-7 Years, I can say in ONLY a Way that a Person that has Been in Love and Knows what I mean that it’s Better than Missing Out because a Person chose to Stick to their Guns, be they Pea-Shooters or Cannons.

        “Sometimes, What you Want isn’t truly What you Need”
        “An Ignorant Fool set in His/Her Ways Learns Nothing”
        ‘A Hard Head makes for a Soft Arse”

        • blackphilo

          Another copy of your comment appears later. I replied there. Peace.

    • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

      I’m a tad bit conflicted about two aspects of today’s post and some commentary although I agree with the underlying premise. *There’s a strong possibility I may be over thinking, so I apologize in advance if this is the case. Here goes.

      If you are the type willing to throw your ‘principles’ out the window for an opportunity to date your ‘Sanaa Lathan’ or your ‘Idras Elba’, then this post is absolutely spot on. Congratulations, you’re a groupie! Collect your prize at the door, for you have just sold your soul for ‘love’ a chance to get into the good graces of a bad b*tch.

      Firstly, principles by their very nature are always situational. We conduct our own internal cost/benefit analysis when faced with any situation, and respond accordingly and in tune with our internal ‘moral’ compass (provided one has one). When faced with the most dire of straights, one would likely engage in behaviors that run counter to his/her principles in hopes to foster a favorable outcome. Does that then mean their principles are disingenuous? No. But it reveals that this person is in a moment of desperation.

      Which brings me to this point: If a person is willing to compromise their ‘dating’ principles for what they view to be an ‘exceptional prospect’, then perhaps in that moment what they are truly exhibiting is desperation. What other reason would one compromise on their longstanding values in order to obtain that which they desire if not out of an act of desperation? #GoTeamThirst – Nah son.

      Secondly, although people will and do tailor principles based upon the opportunity and the potential impact on the big picture, it does not mean that once compromised, the principle in question was an arbitrary one to begin with. It is quite natural to evolve after being in a long standing progressive relationship with someone and eventually undertaking endeavors that at one point in your life, you never imagined doing. That’s called personal growth and relationship growth. However, its another to simply lose your way at the mere sight of a prospect (and even worse for and unknown one) for a chance with what you perceive to be an ‘ideal opportunity’. That is called, “yous a thirsty a$$ negro”.

      Lastly, reserving certain benefits for someone you deem to be special, doesn’t mean you’re full of sh*t because you choose not to do it with just ANYBODY. To some people, certain privileges are earned, not guaranteed upon arrival toting a big butt and a smile. So if you ever find yourself thinking a person is full of sh*t for behaving that way, then chances are you’re the one that didn’t earn their privilege.

      Apart from those tid bits, I agree with the post’s main point overall.

      • Marshal

        My Mane Mr. Sobo going 2-for-2 in commenting on hot topics this week.

        + A Mil