Kyrie Irving put me in an extremely unusual and unsettling place earlier this fall. You see, Irving is the best 18 year old point guard I’ve ever seen¹. And, since I’m a mercenary when it comes to basketball fandom — I’m a fan of whichever team my favorite players happen to be on — it stands to reason that I’d become a fan of whichever school Irving happened to sign with.
But, Irving signed with f*cking Duke, and that changed everything.
You see, ever since they managed — in consecutive years, mind you — to beat my two favorite college teams ever (the 1991 UNLV Runnin’ Rebels and the 1992 Michigan Wolverines) in the NCAA tournament, my heart has reserved a special cabinet of hate for the Duke Blue Devils. Sh*t, even as a 12 year old I could sense that there was something inherently hateable about this unbearably preppy, unusually smarmy, and unapologetically arrogant collection of the spawn of astronauts, lawyers, politicians, and rapists².
To me, they stood for everything wrong about the way the world worked. There was no fairness in the fact that this agglomeration of rich assholes — people whose privilege meant they already won at life — should be allowed to be great at playing basketball too. To twist the knife in the gut even more, pundits, commentators, and columnists love to laud Duke for “playing the right way” and “respecting the game,” which is akin to a high school principal giving a trust fund senior a citizenship award, even though the senior was just caught f*cking a freshman on the hood of his Maserati Quattroporte in the school parking lot.
With that being said, it should come as no surprise that a part of me could relate to the statements Jalen Rose and Jimmy King made about Duke and black Duke players in ESPN’s recent documentary “Fab Five.”
From Rose:
“For me Duke was personal. I hated Duke and I hated everything Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black players that were Uncle Toms.”
I too have always felt that Duke seems to prefer to recruit kids from more affluent backgrounds. And, although I wouldn’t go as far as call a black player who signed with Duke an “Uncle Tom,” I never got the feeling that black dukies were “down for the cause” (whatever the hell that means)
Of course, this — and “this” is a “general feeling about Duke shared by many African-Americans” — is all baseless bullshit. And, considering the fact that I too came from a middle class background with two married parents at home and went to a private middle school and a suburban high school, my bullshit was especially thick. Because I disliked the fact that they beat up on two of my favorite teams, I spun each possible positive characteristic into a negative.
They weren’t confident, they were arrogant. They weren’t team-oriented, they were masking the fact that they had no real talent. They weren’t talented, they were lucky. They weren’t hard-working winners, they we’re poseurs lifted to prominence by byzantine means. I allowed my disdain for their success and the attention given to them turn me into, well, a hater. And while Rose and King obviously were speaking about their past feelings, I don’t think either of them really stressed how wrong they were to feel that way, and that was very disappointing.
Oh, and about “Uncle Tom.”
There are certain accusations that, true or untrue, forever stick with you. Men wrongly accused of rape are still thought of and treated as rapists by those who only need an allegation for confirmation of guilt. “Uncle Tom” carries a similar permanent stigma, and I can’t even imagine how frustrating it must be for a black person who has done nothing but do things the way they’re supposed to be done to always have their racial identity questioned.
This frustration was clearly evident in Grant Hill’s tomeic response to Rose and King’s comments about black Duke players. You could almost sense that this missive had been festering inside of Hill for decades.
It was a sad and somewhat pathetic turn of events, therefore, to see friends narrating this interesting documentary about their moment in time and calling me a bitch and worse, calling all black players at Duke “Uncle Toms” and, to some degree, disparaging my parents for their education, work ethic and commitment to each other and to me. I should have guessed there was something regrettable in the documentary when I received a Twitter apology from Jalen before its premiere. I am aware Jalen has gone to some length to explain his remarks about my family in numerous interviews, so I believe he has some admiration for them.
In his garbled but sweeping comment that Duke recruits only “black players that were ‘Uncle Toms,’ ” Jalen seems to change the usual meaning of those very vitriolic words into his own meaning, i.e., blacks from two-parent, middle-class families. He leaves us all guessing exactly what he believes today.
I am beyond fortunate to have two parents who are still working well into their 60s. They received great educations and use them every day. My parents taught me a personal ethic I try to live by and pass on to my children.
I come from a strong legacy of black Americans. My namesake, Henry Hill, my father’s father, was a day laborer in Baltimore. He could not read or write until he was taught to do so by my grandmother. His first present to my dad was a set of encyclopedias, which I now have. He wanted his only child, my father, to have a good education, so he made numerous sacrifices to see that he got an education, including attending Yale.
Hill ended his response with the type of pointed digs that only comes from people who’ve been deeply hurt.
I caution my fabulous five friends (Ha!) to avoid stereotyping me and others they do not know in much the same way so many people stereotyped them back then for their appearance and swagger. I wish for you the restoration of the bond that made you friends, brothers and icons.
I am proud of my family. I am proud of my Duke championships and all my Duke teammates. And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five.
Yikes. If ever a #shotfired hash-tag was appropriate, it’s now.
Hill has received a bit of criticism for the length, tone, and, since this was basically a response to quotes about feelings Rose and King had 20 years ago, timing of this statement. But, there’s no script or statute of limitations on expressing the type of pain that comes from having to undergo a racial identity interrogation, and I can’t fault Hill for basically saying “Ya’ll analog niggas can kiss my f*cking Dukie ass” in the most verbose way possible.
Whew. There’s a lot to digest here. Race, racial identity, how racial identity affects how we see the world, and whether there’s a “right” way to be black seem to be questions we’ll never fully answer, baggage we’ll always carry.
On a more positive note, this past season allowed me to release one of my burdens. Sticking true to my basketball fandom principles — and not wanting to miss out on watching a guy who had the potential to be one of my favorite college players ever — I did the unthinkable: I finally rooted for Duke.³
¹Yes. Better than Derrick Rose, John Wall, Chris Paul, Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Mike Bibby, Jason Kidd, Ricky Rubio, Jay Williams, Baron Davis, and any other highly-touted 18 year old point guard you or I can name. This doesn’t mean that he’ll be as great of an NBA player as some of the guys I just mentioned — even though I’m pretty certain he will — but, he’s better at this stage than all of them were.
²Joking about the rapists part.
³Of course, Irving got injured 8 games into the season, and hasn’t played since. I haven’t been this disappointed since the last episode of Seinfeld
—The Champ
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Wow. Good post.
Was just writing the other day about me having to defend my blackness to other blacks and to Hispanics. “being black” means different things to different people but I don’t understand why people insist some of us are not “black enough”. Yes I speak spanish …but my ancestors were also enslaved Africans – just in the Dominican republic not the U.S.
Dude is not better than Marbury, Kidd, Davis, or Bibby in high school, but I see where u were going with post. These dudes are high school basketball LEGENDS. Great post nontheless again….
“These dudes are high school basketball LEGENDS. Great post nontheless again…”
yeah, i know these dudes were legends, I’m not dispute that they each were great. all I’m saying is that, from a pure basketball context, irving stands a bit above them all
Better than Sebastian Telfair?
Yall must not have seen him play the games for Duke he played…I live in NC…kid is good…
exactly.
Maybe I’m not seeing it, but to me he is on par with every other good point guard that went to Duke, but I’m not seeing him being better than any of the Duke alum that preceded him, and I have little doubt that he will meet the fate that virtually all Duke guards meet (whether they’re black or white). He will excel in the college program (as they all do) and he will falter in the NBA (as they all do). I think the strength of Coach K’s overall program hides their individual flaws and weaknesses.
Yeah…you must not have seen him play…i mean a whole game…you see Nolan Smith ACC POY right now….? Yeah, he was barely starting when Kyrie was on the court…
Kyrie > John Wall….shooting is the difference…
@ Jonathan,
I saw few of his games and honestly his performance seemed less dominant than Jay Williams. Call me crazy. I just don’t think he nearly as good as you all are suggesting.
So you’re saying the biggest flaw in his game injury by way of hard pick set by a tree and his ducati? Or just old fashioned Grant Hill injuries?
“So you’re saying the biggest flaw in his game injury by way of hard pick set by a tree and his ducati? Or just old fashioned Grant Hill injuries?”
I don’t get it, please further elaborate…if ur referring to Irving, it was a bad injury to which it seems as if he’s recovered from….from what i’ve seen, his biggest flaw (if not this toe), was that he’s 18, and that’s not really a flaw..lol
@Jonathan. I was joking. Jason Williams, PG for duke? DQ said that he would meet the same fate as all other duke guards, I was saying two of the brightest stars’ careers were derailed by injury.
LOL im slow…10-4
I’m saying we’re not seeing the biggest flaws/weakness in his game because he plays in a system that masterfully minimizes. That’s actually a compliment to Coach K.
“I think the strength of Coach K’s overall program hides their individual flaws and weaknesses.”
i actually thought duke was holding him back a bit. like, if he was in calipari’s dribble drive offense at kentucky he might have averaged 22 and 8 this year
He would also have Calipari’s lack of team discipline. Part of what makes any player good, is the players around them and their discipline, and here Coach K excels better than most others (with perhaps the exception of Bobby Knight.) His players do their job.
I only said Telfair because they both looked great against high school competition. And yes, I consider those games at the beginning of the season glorified high school competition.
I’m with you here. I need to see him against better competition to give him THAT level of respect. And honestly, I don’t know if that will happen in today’s college ball. Plus he ain’t staying in college long.
“I consider those games at the beginning of the season glorified high school competition.”
so 31 against Mich St and completing owning Jacob Pullen of Kansas St. (a senior who was a first team pre season all-american) is glorified high school competition?
Those last two games were his best, but I remember him having a lot of turnovers against K-State. The point of him not facing enough competition to come to that conclusion remains. I really would have liked the opportunity to see him play that whole season. Duke probably did too. Well, maybe not Seth Curry.
Hold up Dame!!!! K. Irving is a very good PG at the young age of 18 I agree. However saying he’s the best ever is quite a stretch. A young Steph Marbury at 18 would’ve ate Irving up. Steph was a killa! ..6’3”, strong, bungeez, and you had to guard dude soon as he entered any gym (crazy range). I know you didn’t forget about da young boy from Coney Island….Come on Dame….lol
I don’t know about that, cuzzo. I think Steph was more explosive offensively, but Irving’s game is a bit more completely. While Step might have been a better basketball player, Irving’s a better point guard (if that makes any sense)
Steph was a f*cking monster though, I can’t lie.
“While Step might have been a better basketball player, Irving’s a better point guard (if that makes any sense)”
Thank you Champ! To break it down even further…Irving’s best games would be 31 pts, 10 assts, 5 steals, while Marbury could go for 40 and 5 assts….I just don’t think we’ve seen the full development of Irving…he only played a month really…and he is worthy enough to be compared w/ the college greats…got Tarheel fans down here scared of him even before the season started this year…
It should be clarified that the 31 points, 10 assists and 5 steals aren’t in the same game it’s more like 31 points and 4 assists or 17 points and 9 assists, which really doesn’t put him ahead of Marbury.
All of this kind of depends on what you want from a point guard. Kyrie Irving but after seeing both videos of him in high school and his stats it would be hard to put him ahead of Marbury or Derrick Rose. Marbury in high school averaged 28 pts and 9 assists and consistently blew out competition when New York was still one of the toughest places in the Country. Derrick Rose averaged 25 pts, 8 assists and 9 rebounds and almost single handedly lit up basketball powerhouse Oak Hill whose point guard at the time was Brandon Jennings. I only really saw Marbury at Tech but I’ve seen Rose in high school and he was one of the most unstoppable guards I’ve ever seen.
Kyrie is a great floor general, but people like Rose and Marbury were going to win the game for you, and if we are talking about floor generals you might have to put Ed Cota into the conversation too.
“Kyrie is a great floor general, but people like Rose and Marbury were going to win the game for you, and if we are talking about floor generals you might have to put Ed Cota into the conversation too”
cota couldn’t score in an empty gym, so he doesn’t belong in this conversation.
anyway though, there are few things i’m more confident about than being able to assess point guards, and i think irving has the total package. time will tell if i’m right, though, but i doubt i’m wrong
“cota couldn’t score in an empty gym, so he doesn’t belong in this conversation.”
At 18 (high school) he could, and he managed talent on the floor as good as anyone in college basketball, also based on Irvings 8 games Cota has a better assist to turnover ratio. So it depends on what you’re looking for, Irving wouldn’t score as much (wouldn’t need to) with players like Vince Carter and Antwan Jamison.
“time will tell if i’m right, though, but i doubt i’m wrong”
I guess the tournament will tell but from where I sit I don’t see him having done much that Rose or Marbury haven’t, especially Rose.
I agree with you on that. @Jonathan well listen homeboy I’ll take 40 and 5 any day…lol We are talking at age 18 though….It didn’t get much better than Starbury. I have to see a little more from Irving to give him that label. A good stretch early on versus the likes of mid majors like Princeton and Miami(OH) isn’t overly impressive to me. Da kid’s nice not just loosely giving him the greatest 18 ever pg label…as of yet. I have Duke winning it again btw
This is like asking which would you rather have, $1 million or $1.2 million dollars…i mean either one is great…but his best game WAS against Michigan State…that’s not Princeton OR Miami of Ohio….also played Kansas State, Marquette and Oregon….no real slouches there…I still think that the best from this kid is yet to come and he’s the real deal….makes his team so much better and still gets it in even on a guard heavy team like Duke…
you didn’t see what he did to mich st and kansas state?
First post, but good topic…..
I know most of yall are East Coast, but the best 18 year old point guard I’ve ever seen was Randy Livingston from NOLA, one of only a few guys to win 2 national high school POY awards. Size, range, vision, great shot, jets, dude had it all, well until he blew out his knees before playing a game his freshman year of college, never recovered…..
Random, but I wrote a research paper on African ancestry in the Dominican Republic. It’s really an interesting subject. Hispanics don’t think you’re one of them b/c your skin is darker and Black Americans feel as if you deny your root simply b/c you identify as Dominican instead of Black.
I have a good friend who is Dominican, but says that he’s African American. He says that the slave ship just made a stop off there first. He feels that we’re all the same – and he’s right.
The thing about this, tho, is who is right? Since I’ve been to some other hemispheres around the world, I realize that we often define race as we see it in America. Essentially, we have an Americanized view of racism, which I don’t think should be used to define how other people view themselves.
I do see your point, I just wouldn’t be so quick to judge the race of others, and how they wish to define themselves. The first time I went to South Africa is when I started to think that a lot of these definitions and stuff don’t really matter. Not to really judge South Africa or South Africans, but as an American, you haven’t really seen racism until you step foot into that country. Beautiful country nonetheless.
“I just wouldn’t be so quick to judge the race of others, and how they wish to define themselves”
Co-sign completely! I can’t tell you how many people tell me that I’m not really black and I’m African umm….I think it comes from what people are exposed to and how to define race. The truth is that there’s black people all over the world inc South America, New Zealand, Europe.
It used to annoy me to no end when some Black people think one is ignoring their Blackness when 1st generation Black people of foreign heritage regularly acknowledge that heritage, or when Black people of mixed heritage regularly acknowledge that heritage. Then I realized it was mostly out of ignorance, so I tuned a lot of it out.
For me, I got really annoyed not because people identified with their heritage/ethnicity or whatever, but when these same people fix their lips to turn around and challenge my blackness because of my skin color/hair (mostly west indians, sometimes latinas). Ok, so you get to claim your identity, but I can’t cuz YOU have issues with my color and culture? GTFOHWTBS
The same is true for Haitians.
I think black Americans get angry with Hispanics that don’t consider themselves black for that very reason. No matter where you go or how you what angle you take, black is always last on the bottom of the totem pole in social and aesthetic perception and economic status.
Hispanics in general have an extremely unfavorable view of people of African decent. When a group of black people try to embrace the identity of an ethnic group that doesn’t accept them to escape the shared stigma of being black it its taken as a slight.
We take it that way because you don’t take offense to the unfair characterizations, you instead choose to embrace them (and thus look down upon other blacks) and disassociate yourself from the reality that you are the object of their disgust by claiming only ethnicity and nationality pretending that race has no place in your identity.
I understand that Sammy Sosa doesn’t consider himself black or even Dominican and black and that his wife isn’t black. But if you identify yourself as Dominican because of a shared cultural heritage and not because you are ashamed of the color of your skin, then why do you have to bleach it? And why are the people that look like you the ones that only ones that consider it shared?
Whatever. We all have our own racial crosses to bear.
“being black” means different things to different people but I don’t understand why people insist some of us are not “black enough”.
I agree. I think its awful. I refuse to defend myself. I can go skiing when I want…
skiing = Anything people consider ‘not black or not black ENOUGH”
hola chica (Blatinas UNITE)
i constantly get into debates with black americans regarding my blackness… Soy Cubana, Soy Negra, Soy los dos…. its a battle but i keep fighting…
Girl don’t get me started. Jamaicans ARE BLACK!!!! I don’t where this “islanders aren’t black” nonsense came from. We were all slaves once, we just got dropped off first and rebelled quicker. Cosign.
Talk dat ting to dem!
Luckily in my experience, as I have aged I’ve found less people thinking that Jamaicans (and by extension islanders) are somehow not black.
To be honest, I’ve never actually met a black Jamaican that thought they weren’t black. What I do see often is that they will say they are not African American.
“What I do see often is that they will say they are not African American. ”
This is what I see too.
Hell I prefer Black over African American.Exactly
The thing is sometimes there is a definition of “Black” as in Black Americans that is meant to define people from this country who share the same culture… When being Black is defined that way, even my blue-black self understands that I may not be included in the conversation.
Case in point: I had a colleague who was fairly light-skinned as in green/gray eyes, long auburn hair… She was creole I believe. And like I said, I am at the other end of the spectrum of color (read really dark-skinned.
)… It was funny to see our white colleagues facial expressions when she declared that I was not Black. 
… Instead of taking offense (because to be honest it’s a bit unsettling having an almost white looking girl call me not black), I just understood that she meant being Black American as in belonging to a certain culture that I am not part of … And if Black is defined that way, I totally agree.
I say it all the time, what is Black? Who is really BLACK? We’re all descendants of Africans.
Hi SFG! I get your point but remember not all Jamaicans are actually black, but I think you are talking about the ones that are black saying they aren’t. I think with Jamaicans, one issue is the fact that we identify so strongly with our nationality that we don’t always think of ourselves in terms of our race. I’m not making any excuses just offering a possible explanation.
True. I know. Jamaica is filled with Blacks, Chinese, Indians and Whites. Majority of the Island is Black so people don’t feel the need to point out their race in terms of a color. Jamaicans do say they’re not African American where all Americans hear is JAs saying their not Black. One big miscommunication.
Exactly!
YES me and my mother were talking about this the other day.
We dont identify as african-american, but we do consider ourselves black.
african american means to me someone whose ancestors were slaves in the United States.
It’s funny and sad to me how the slavery experience is highlighted so much more in US history as opposed to the other slave-holding countries. It’s as if there is this cultural amnesia about the reason why those countries have black and black/mixedrace populations. I wouldn’t notice this trend so much if, in many conversations that I had with West Indians and Caribbean/South American latinos, they didn’t get visibly upset when I mention the slave-holding history of their country. Or that the practices favoring the granting of freedom, citizenship, et. al to mixed race individuals was dramatically restricted when the European colonizers sent women over, as opposed to just male soldiers and laborers.
Too often, when someone of Caribbean/South American ethnicity is talking about what differentiates them from black americans, it comes off as less “hey, this is my ethnicity, fyi” and more “nope, I’m not from one of those slave families”, with nary a mention of their own history. If they know it at all beyond the fact that mummy and daddy (or grandparents) emigrated in 19XX.
no!! i know my ancestors were slaves. but they were slaves in jamaica. and every generation since then has been born in Jamaica. and thats the difference to me. african-americans are those who have no caribbean, or actual African descent. every generation of blacks in their family has been born in the U.S. except for the ones who were originally brought over from africa.
I get that you know that. I’m just talking about the experience I’ve had with other blacks from the Caribbean and South American part of the black diaspora.
It comes from people who don’t understand that “black” is not an ethnicity. So if you aren’t black like me, you aren’t black at all. We are really lacking in historical knowledge about the diaspora.
“It comes from people who don’t understand that “black” is not an ethnicity.”
BAM!
I don’t think black has a formal definition. Blacks in America aren’t really African Americans. Technically that’s more correct for a white guy from south America. I think originally black was just one of the words in a long line of descriptors for black people in America. Somewhere between colored and then coming full circle back to Ninja.
It doesn’t have a formal definition. For me personally, Black is an umbrella term for people with known African ancestry. It covers the entire African diaspora across all ethnicities and nationalities.
Which Black people in America “aren’t really African Americans” in your opinion?
I’m not really comfortable with telling people how to identify. My ancestry is U.S. based for as far back as I can go. I call myself an African American. It’s my ethnicity. It covers all the possible mixing, history, and distance that prevents me from getting more specific. I feel this descriptor sums it up and cannot be confused with U.S. Americans who are recent voluntary immigrants from the African continent (or descended from). When speaking to other knowledgeable people, they hardly ever refer to themselves as African, they specify their nation or ethnic group of origin. I don’t care about confusing other people. They need to be schooled IMO.
Good point about recent African immigrants referring to their country of origin. It is funny how the most racially diverse continent in the world is reduced to a single country.
“Black is an umbrella term for people with known African ancestry.”
I don’t necessarily agree with this particular point, only because there are like 8 African countries that are considered predominantly Arab (Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria). Are they considered Black too? It’s really a tricky issue, though I see where you are coming from with your overall post.
I know this dominican guy who claims that he is not black. Anytime he speaks he refers to himself as hispanic and not black and makes an extra point to do so, because to the us he looks black anyway, nobody even would know he was dominican if he didn’t constantly remind us of his “non-blackness” It’s interesting that you consider yourself black beacuse Im so used to that fool.
I’ve seen this too. Alot of Afro Hispanics out here are insecure and rep their island by denouncing being Black. I have to remind them that they have brown skin and naps. LOL
those people are a different breed… sometimes it just because they don’t want to be lumped in with african americans, sometimes its because they just don’t want to associate themselves with what is seen as negative and sometimes its because in latin society the one drop rule goes the other way, so one drop of something else be it indio or white makes you that instead of black.
like you i’ve never liked duke ever. the only two players i’ve ever respected that played for duke were grant hill and steve wojohowski. i can’t stand christian laettner. after his racial comments when he got the nba that just confirmed why i hated him.
elton brand- hate him
jason williams- hate him
dante jones- hate him
corey maggette- hate him
chris duhon- hate him (x2)
sheldon williams- hate him (x infinity)
i’m with jalen rose. duke doesn’t recruit from the inner cities. they would never come to a city like i lived in a look at players seriously. perhaps that’s why i’m surprised they signed kyrie irving out of east orange, jersey (is that inner city?). i have two words that back up jalen rose’s claim about duke’s recruiting. trajan langdon. duke found quite possibly the only black high school player in the state of alaska. smh
oh yeah. grant hill’s response was eloquent and typical. (in the words or jalen) he’s still a b*tch though.
Carlos Boozer was dookie from alaska too smh
damn. how could i forget about him. and he played an extended period of time in utah which by association…..
Since this topic is so close to a former home (literally), I had to do some research. Turns out Kyrie Irving is from West Orange and went to High School at Montclair Kimberly Academy, a school whose name alone calls to mind sadittiness at its pinnacle.
Being from the area, I can tell you this:
West Orange is def a suburb- $1 million homes don’t lie
Montclair Kimberly Academy is a prep school for kids who want the best of everything and specifically kids who DONT live in the inner city. At my high school, we made up stories about just how rich the kids were who attended MKA and how they used silverware at lunch. Thing is, the stories weren’t much of a stretch…smh
Jalen continues to be right.
For some reason this made me think of serius jones v. murda mook. “Your government is Jonathan Ancrum, you went to Fordham prep…”
not that was hilarious.
“For some reason this made me think of serius jones v. murda mook. “Your government is Jonathan Ancrum, you went to Fordham prep…””
still, for my money, the best freestyle battle evisceration ever
Alot of times though, these schools recruit kids from the hood to come play for them. To be honest, I can’t even hate them for doing it if they’re trying to get a better education and get out the hood.
that’s the whole point though. duke doesn’t recruit from the hood. like they aren’t good enough to attend duke.
What if the recruitment locations are hood enough according to Duke?
“that’s the whole point though. duke doesn’t recruit from the hood. like they aren’t good enough to attend duke.”
i’m sure nate james, sean dockery, corey maggate, and william avery might dispute that. also, recruitment is a two-way street, and I don’t think a lot of the high level b-ball prospects from the hood are necessarily receptive to duke recruitment either
you know how you solve all this? all the top black sports stars start looking at HBCUs again. i bet that would throw a big monkey wrench in the game. imagine hampton being the number 1 seed and duke the 6th seed. it would be that way if segregation were still alive today. *shrug*
William Avery is from Augusta, GA. Augusta ninjas are naturally hood.
“Since this topic is so close to a former home (literally), I had to do some research. Turns out Kyrie Irving is from West Orange and went to High School at Montclair Kimberly Academy, a school whose name alone calls to mind sadittiness at its pinnacle.”
he may have started there, but i know he attended perennial powerhouse st. patricks his last two years of high school
Yeah St. patrick’s is a powerhouse indeed and they regularly send at least two to three kids to top programs a year but they’re a small school in a city (elizabeth) that’s half and half: not good, not bad.
So for the purpose of making Duke look bad, using his first school works pretty well, although it doesn’t tell the whole story. He’s still from West Orange, which is definitely a suburb. Whoopi Goldberg just bought a house out there.
Trajan Langdon was too. Don’t sleep on Alaska being hood though. Joker the Bailbondsman represented.
Kyrie is from EO?! Coach K must have gone there with top flight security! lmao. But I’m sure Kyrie went to a local private school in the burbs so Coach K didn’t have to be in EO too much. I still don’t like Duke anyway.
But in all seriousness, I was born and raised in East Orange, New Jersey and I have siblings and 2 nephews who still live there. When I was growing up it was inner city, but it wasn’t inner city in the sense that people were getting killed daily, although there were def drugs, gangs, violence. Hell, driving home from school one day, my dad used our van to stop some kids jumping another kid in the middle of the street. Ole boy ran to the hood of my dad’s van for cover.
BUT that was in the 90′s. Currently, the city is on an upswing renovating properties and attracting new demographics, but it still has its rough patches and no one would confuse it with a cakewalk/suburb by any stretch.
ps. 2520′s call the place “questionable.” http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-jersey/384935-east-orange.html lol
Speaking of my hometown there WayUPThere.
Im atleast living in the town for a few more years. But, EO is nice place to live. Schools nearly every four blocks lol
PS your right about the new demographics tho. Couple more ppl move in my apartment and all of a sudden they fix the vending machines and add one of those RedBox machines in the building smh
“Schools nearly every four blocks lol”
Shout out to EO School District!
*I’m not going to put the name of my school on here…..might be some District workers lurking…..
I believe Kyrie Irving is from West Orange. Not hood. He went to St. Patrick’s in Elizabeth. Kinda hood.
And yes, East Orange is still Illtown
Plainfield, New Jersey had hood tendencies, but Jay Williams didn’t go to Plainfield HS. Of course, my cousins from Newark always called it the suburbs growing up. And relatively speaking, it is. But not to the people who surround the place and it’s just gotten worse in the decade I’ve been gone.
East Orange is most certainly the hood. Probably not to some kid living in the throngs of Newark, but East Orange is certainly inner city. Just for the record.
And I was just in Irvington this summer with my best friend who is a Pastor in Newark. It’s Jersey, so you can still spend $300-400k for a house, but trust me…there’s absolutely nothing suburban about it.
I think he may be from Elizabeth, NJ. His dad played professional ball in Australia.
Sadly Jalen Rose thinks I am a Uncle Tom. *holds head in shame*
Kyrie Irving caught my attention a few years ago because I initially thought that he’s from East Orange, then I saw Irvington, but he apparently lives in WO now, after being born in Australia, plus he played at private schools in Montclair and Elizabeth. So I don’t know if EO can really claim him.
As to whether EO is “inner city”, I grew up there way back, and I think of it as a suburb (of Newark), mostly low-rise, one, two and three family detached homes, plus some apartment buildings. To the extent that “inner city” means “black”, then I guess EO qualifies. “White flight” was running its course in the 50s and 60s when I was there.
It happens that I played against Jalen’s dad Jimmy Walker(!! & RIP) in college. I can relate to what Jalen said about Duke. Good luck to him and Grant, and hello to everyone in East Orange.
as i look at this list it seems like if you’re blk and goto dook you are pretty much cursed entering into NBA, all players listed had short careers, washed up or didn’t live up to “hype”:
Grant hill stayed hurt and missed his prime.
elton brand, duhon and maggette are pretty much washed
jason williams got hurt in motorcycle accident
trajan langdon only lasted in nba abt 2 season
boozer has had decent luck in nba so far but time will tell
Forgot about William Avery…who? Exactly…lol
And I wouldn’t call Elton Brand washed, nor Boozer…both have had pretty decent careers with their respective teams…He’s valuable to the Bulls, as they paid a grip for him…
People are piling on the criticism for Duke, but for ever Calipari coached team, we need a team that holds Blacks to a higher standard…get an education, win some titles, enjoy your college years…
Calipari, like the Fab Five, has never won an NCAA Championship…
good points Jonathan. and if Calipari ever does win a title, i’m sure it’ll just be vacated at a later date
oh it WILL be vacated at a later date. lol.
Agree with Jonathan’s points.
And it may point to another sociological question, maybe kids from the “hood” want it more therefore are “hungrier” going into the NBA? I personally don’t feel any specific way towards Duke (I hate their mascots though), but I appreciate the type of basket ball players a la Grant Hill (only poster of a celebrity in my room growing up
)… My NBA team is the San Antonio Spurs so it’s easy to say that I appreciate a certain “type” of basketball players… and basketball in general.
I hate the Spurs too.
Not surprising…
if you’re blk and goto dook you are pretty much cursed entering into NBA
nah, if you play ball and go to dook (love the spelling, you must be from carolina) you’re pretty much cursed entering the NBA. JJ Redick isn’t exactly an all-start. did you see when he got crossed up and his teammates were on the sidelines clowning him?!?!? hilarious.
coach k recruits players that he knows will be great college ballers but don’t have the skills that will translate to the next level. and those that do have the skills, k somehow convinces them to stick around in college longer than they should, thereby destroying their draft status and hopes at playing at the next level (Singler). kyrie was an anomaly. k knew he’d be a one and done, but would give him a nice shot at back to back titles.
Smdh at shelden williams. freaking disgrace.
Shelden Williams…Ha! But he’s married to Candace Parker, and given the motto for this site, some would say that he’s #winning.
Duke kids only stand out in the college game for the most part. Coach K doesn’t prepare them well for the next level and history proves it.
yet everyone wants to hate on john calipari. even though he produces one and dones, he prepares his kids for the next level.
derrick rose- mvp candidate
john wall- rookie of the year candidate
tyreke evans- rookie of the year
4 first round draft picks in last years draft.
duke’s track record speaks for itself.
you forgot all the Calipari players who are probably in the prison system though. lol. i think it might even out. LOL
lol you may have a point there but still i’d play for calipari before i played for coach k if my ultimate goal was to make it to the league.
Well hold on though…what’s the job of a college coach? Oh yeah, win Championships…everyone hates on Coach K for his kids suckin in the pros, but w/ those same 3 guys…
Rose- (Choked in the NCAA Final)
John Wall- (lost in the Elite 8? I know beat 1st round game, Wake (Go Deacs!) and Cornell (barely))
Reke- (he ain’t do much in his year there)
What did Calipari do other than manage the personalities of some kids that had the “1 and Done” rule not been created, would have went straight to the NBA out of high school…and the way he recruits, he obviously just does whatever he has to to get the kids there….so forgive me if im not crazy impressed….only kid i will say he “Coached” is Cousins….he got so much better from beginning to end of season!
But Coach K takes kids that have no business being drafted, and gets them drafted…and I think it’s more of these kids being set up to look better than they are at Duke, than them just not doing well in the Pros….which is a sign of GOOD COACHING!
Not a Duke fan, but I do think that w/ Duke, some people are guilty of “jumpin on the pile” (in football when a guy is down, other ppl just jump on top of the guys tacking him…for those that don’t know)
old motto for this site*
do you mean physical appearance or basketball skill? the world is still scratching its collective head trying to figure out how he pulled candace parker.
Sheldon Williams is one unfortunate dude. But he was winnin’ when he got Candace Parker. Also I am one of the biggest Duke haters too (I am hoping UConn will roll over them in the elite eight). That’s why my Tarheels is going all the way.
you did see how Duke dismantled them in the ACC championship game right?
they played well, we didn’t. we also played two extremely tiring games the two days prior. and we destroyed them the previous week to win the acc regular season title outright, which speaks to our body of work over the entire season. but that’s neither here nor there…
you mean that inconsistent body of work? y’all ninjas are like luther vandross’s weight.
14-2 in the regular season = inconsistent body of work? ok.
i was talking more of the tarheels in general. and talking sh*t. good regular season championship though. congrats.
Zeller is a true superstar!
Crud, I got 404′d. Anyway Zeller’s mom has a t-shirt that says “Zeller is a true superstar”.
Inconsistent AS HELL!!!!! I love it! Duke BABY!!! (n my vital voice)
The reason the games were tiring is cuz yall played terrible…it didn’t matter if yall were fully rested or not, the Blue Devils shot 61% from the FIELD in the first half…Roy couldn’t do anything…
You’re playing in a Tourney these next few weeks too..not a season which covers a “full body” of work…6 games…win each, or go home…just like the tourney which yall just played in, but a lil longer…these freshmen better grow up, Barnes can’t score 50 every night, and he said so after the Clemson game lol
Taaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr
Heeeeeeeeels
My sister is about to become a Tar Heel… That should be interesting.
(I am hoping UConn will roll over them in the elite eight)
UConn has my sentimental heart as well… I was there front and center, when Emeka Okafor took the the trophy in 2004. Made me appreciate NCAA b-ball. Best birthday present ever.
“sheldon williams- hate him (x infinity) ”
#hilarity
This made my morning. For real, I’m CTFU over here.
i can’t lie, i hated Shelden Williams too. i always felt he was way too soft.
jalen speaks again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jC4YmEC2-0
i’m with jalen rose. duke doesn’t recruit from the inner cities.
how is this a student athletes problem though? was Grant Hill not supposed to accept recruitment to Duke (where he’d have ample opportunity to make the most out of his education, since education is important in his family, apparently) so he could remain “down for the cause” in all outward appearance?? because there are certain types of black athletes who im sure have gone to Duke who didnt care for the state of the black community, all black Duke athletes have to carry that stigma? please.
black ppl are harsh and unfair towards each other and i can see why he wrote his response. typical.
agreed !
i don’t have a problem with any black athlete for choosing to play for duke. my issue lies with duke university’s athletic program and their recruiting methods. like i said, i grew up in the inner city and i guarantee that a school like duke would have never looked at any kids who played for any high schools in my area. and yes we had great STUDENT athletes.
i guess what im sayin is– Rose making his comments about Duke, and then spitting these very harsh and RUDE comments about Grant, specifically, makes it seem as if its Grant’s problem that he went to Duke. and thats just dumb.
oh ok. i’m with you in that case. i’m not supporting rose’s comments about hill. maybe about latenner but not hill. lol
lol fair enough
I was thinking the same thing. Don’t blame the players. If your problem is with the recruitment then thats one thing, but if someone offers you something that you are interested in should you not take the opportunity?
Thank you very much.
Thank You! I agree.
Agreed!
*rereads post a third time*
…yeah, so I’m thinking all of this is out of my league or over my head in some way. O.O I’m tired, somebody tell me how to feel about all this.
Just know that Duke is the greatest and everyone else is just hatin’ lol
Just know that Duke is the greatest and everyone else is just hatin’ lol
Ummmm…no.
Most would view a black person that likes dook basketball in the same manner you might view a black person that is republican, voted for mccain and wants palin to run/win in 2012!
show me 1 black person that like dook and i’ll should you 50 that hate dook
It ain just black people, tho. Duke has probably the most hated basketball program in the country, and the majority of the country is very much non black. The only people that like Duke are Duke alum and Dick Vitale….and apparently The Champ.
I met Dick Vitale..He’s really nice…
“It ain just black people, tho. Duke has probably the most hated basketball program in the country, and the majority of the country is very much non black. The only people that like Duke are Duke alum and Dick Vitale….and apparently The Champ.”
this is true.
yeah, im with Grehe here…folks HATE duke across race lines. I think there are monkeys and elephants that hate Duke.
AMEN
you all would be surprised at how many regular ol black folks in north carolina, and…how can i say this in a pc way….white folks that live in homes that can be mobile…love duke. we call these people “wal-mart dook fans”
ehh, I was raised in NC (and only recently left) and althought DOOK is hated by blacks/whites… DOOK is loved just as much in NC. I’ve had HEATED UNC vs dook conversations with people, black and white. Tempers flair, names are called, women and children have been killed… it’s SERIOUS.
Duke probably gained some fans in this demographic after the lacrosse scandal.
@Tes
I’m with you here. I might have to sit this one out in terms of commenting.
I’ll just read and try to learn something today.
@ Tes
you are NOT alone… i’m sitting on the sidelines right there with you… i read it and was like who is fab five? 20 years ago? what does this have to do with now? is this march madness? and a host of other questions i could not answer and do NOT feel like googling.. i’m taking my ignorance and cuddling up in it this time…
But it’s not just for the sports posters…it’s about the black folks from the hood vs. Black folks from the suburbs….and the whole notion of Black folks who are doing well, and from good households being ostracized b/c of things that are out of the childrens’ control…and the Fab Five kind of played on that heavy….it was more easily accepted in this situation b/c most everyone hates Duke…
right on!
this is the earthquake of two tectonic plates of american black folks.
Once upon a time (think the cosby days), we worked hard to be accepted -> and the debate was about “should we assimilate to be accepted by the majority?”
the counter argument came at the same time through hip-hop. “Accept me for who I am, dammit”
The glorification of thug life was not necessarily just machismo, but the counter argument to the “we got to behave like _them_ to be accepted by _them_” and its still a strong message to this day.
Like in the wire, its a battle of socialization. The hip-hop generation’s battle is this.
see http://www.hicktownpress.com/chanequa-campbell-and-brittany-smith-sleep-well-in-the-bed-that-you-made/ and the fact that chenqua claimed to be “Loud and Proud to be from the hood”
in this case examples of two social classes (Jalen / Hill) find themselves in a rift, and its quite obvious why they won’t be able to just get along.
I like this breakdown very much.
Great insight. I think this captures it perfectly.
@ Tes, @AntiCool @Yoles
start here (if you care enough)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fab_Five_(University_of_Michigan)
the more you know…
I feel so proud of myself because I am not even a fan of basketball (both the pros and the NCAA) and I know about the people that The Champ has written about in today’s post.
::pats self on the back::
I don’t. O_o All I know is Grant Hill. lls oops *runs and hides*
Thanks KB.
Interesting stuff…
thx KB
i came back and have been reading the comments and went to the link and now i’m more informed… i will say that now the comments are talking about other people irving, coach k whatever… i’m done with research tho… thx again!
I guess I need to get a real work day in every now and then.
LMAO!
“You see, ever since they managed — in consecutive years, mind you — to beat my two favorite college teams ever (the 1991 UNLV Runnin’ Rebels and the 1992 Michigan Wolverines) in the NCAA tournament, my heart has reserved a special cabinet of hate for the Duke Blue Devils.”
I feel you pain, my HATRED for dook started when they beat UNLV, i’ll admit it might be petty and even racially charged but i HATE them! I get somewhat appalled anytime i meet a black man thats not a dook alum or durham native that will admit he is a dook fan. The root of my hate does stem from those game, i viewed as the “black team” vs the “white team w/the uncle tom black guys”, yea i’ll own up to it 100%. Im pulling my “i;m black so i hate dook” pass(shoutout to yday’s post).
Grant hill response just further proved he what jalen was saying IMO. He chose to boast about blk dook players accomplishments and take cheap shot at end with “i never lost to fab five”. It was almost 20yrs ago!! His letter reminds me of a the nerd or fat chick from HS everyone picked on, that made it big/lose weight and comes back to HS reunion to show-off and tell everyone off. I really think he could hv contacted jalen offline/in private like grown man if it really pissed him off that bad.
SB: check out the email elton brand recieved from dook slum when he chose to leave dook early, this reminds me of why i HATE dook:
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/elton-brand-duke-letter/
I think that “never lost to Fab 5″ was just some competitive smack talk. IMO, grant hill was trying to emphasize that black people come from all experiences and backgrounds and that we should applaud all blacks who were able to succeed rather than disregard them as not being “black enough”. At the end of the day, we are all one step away from catching “Rodney king” treatment.
I see where they’re both coming from. I hate Duke too and Jalen made valid points, but he was out of pocket for calling the black players “Uncle Toms.” He’s allowed to express his feelings, but blame the school not the black players who went there. Grant Hill had almost no choice but to respond…..
agreed.
and they both have the RIGHT to respond. i appreciate both having the candor to express themselves.
What exactly makes the black players “Uncle Tom”s?
nothing. they’re just recruited by and go to the white establishment school. nevermind that its a championship program and a good school. lol. its most perception about them though.
plus folks need somebody to hate.
You do realize that calling blk Duke Players “Uncle Toms” shows a bigger cheap shot right? I think your hatred of Duke is seriously clouding your judgement. When he mentioned the accomplishments of the Duke Blk players i am confident it was to imply these people have gone on to great careers, WHICH ARE MAJOR ACCOMPLISHMENTS FOR ALL BLACK AMERICANS. This sort of response if not grant hill would have come from another source. Jalen wasnt going to be able to call someone a uncle tom for growing up in a two parent household and it was going to escape scrutiny. If you read the totality of Grant Hill’s response he goes on further(very eloquently i might add perhaps that good Duke education) to explain how at the time Duke even had one of the preliminary black historians as a professor at the school and he was able to learn alot about his own identity as an African so uncle tom, they are not.
*nodding head in agreement*
I get somewhat appalled anytime i meet a black man thats not a dook alum or durham native that will admit he is a dook fan.
lol. i’ve never applled anybody before. i think i like that.
i’m a durham native…lived there 18 years and i know alot of duke fans..and carolina fans. maybe you should do a blog on the CRAZINESS that black people LOVE representing from the hood. what’s wrong with NOT being from the hood and being from the suburbs? duke probably didn’t recruit from the hood b/c there’s enough hood in durham to go around. LOL ok joking..but seriously…i think we are the only people in the world who love representing from the hood. like we NEED to stay poor and can only have credibility if we are. people who aren’t born in the hood or who have parents who didn’t struggle are all the sudden uncle toms. we won’t ever get anywhere with that mentality..but i’ve listened to a panel with michael eric dyson and a few other notable Black intellectuals who spent most of the seminar bragging that they had to struggle or they were from the hood. does this make me less black because although i can appreciate it, i didn’t come from there? it’s straight ignorance..for me, the disagreement is less about the color of my skin but more about socioeconomic status and having/not having to struggle or be poor. RUN TELL DAT!
are we the same person?
Yeah I think the biggest issue that people have with it now is the fact that Jalen never specified that he has come to think otherwise currently. Given Jalen’s new level of income and steady work with ESPN, I’m sure that his child is going to grow up in an affluent background and so his kid may be, by extension, one of the kids that he railed about as a 17-18 yr old.
Secondly, I actually scoff at people who make anyone defend their blackness for merely being educated or trying to better my situation. It’s this systematic reinforcement (by black people no less) of the idea (created by the majority) that we are not supposed to be educated or successful that creates a lot of the problems that we currently face. We can’t unite and achieve much of anything when we’re too busy challenging each other’s authenticity and trying to “stay black” by doing things that will by and large keep us in the same tax bracket, on the same economic level, in the same neighborhoods, and retard progress across the board.
Yes, that sounds harsh up there when I say that “I scoff,” but the icons that most of these people look up to (rappers, athletes, entertainers) are telling them (and everyone) MOVE OUT OF THE HOOD AND BETTER YOURSELF SOMEHOW. Lil Wayne, TI, and Jay Z and countless athletes are not shy about where they come from, but have said in interviews that where they came from was so bad they told themselves that they had to get out and then encourage others in those setting to do the same. Some even up initiatives and foundations to give back to those in impoverished communities, so that they can make something of themselves and get out of the cycle of poverty, violence, and sub-standard living.
I never understand how one black person challenges another person’s blackness merely on the basis of education. How are you challenging my blackness when I’m trying to do a small part to elevate the perception of the race by being someone that refutes prevalent negative white notions of black people?
Yeah I think the biggest issue that people have with it now is the fact that Jalen never specified that he has come to think otherwise currently. Given Jalen’s new level of income and steady work with ESPN, I’m sure that his child is going to grow up in an affluent background and so his kid may be, by extension, one of the kids that he railed about as a 17-18 yr old.
In the documentary it comes across as pretty obvious that he doesn’t think that way anymore.
Yeah but people just want to hear him come out and admit that, and since he did that neither in the documentary nor in subsequent interviews, they are up in arms about it. I think Jalen knows better than what he thought as a 18/19 yr old but people want him to at least admit it openly, and since he hasn’t, they’re giving him hell.
i dont know that i think it does in the documentary. what does come out is that Jalen felt bitter about Grant Hill personally. but i never got that he didn’t feel Duke generally recruited Uncle Tom arse ninjas. Grant was just directly personal.
*co-sign*
co-signs the cosign
All this. And like you said, it’s black people that do it which makes the least sense in the world. Even if felt that way at 18, I wonder how many other black 18 year old males have this jaded perception?
Yep.
Thank you!! You said it way better than I could even try to.
i totally get jalen’s sentiments, he just did not communicate them in the best way. had the whole “uncle tom” thing not been part of the discussion do you think people would still have a problem with how jalen felt? his feelings are real and I can honestly say I deeply understand how it hurts to feel like you are part of a losing game. i mean, black folks always want to talk about how we want equal opportunities and a fair chance and he was vocalizing his struggle to deal with the fact that he was not given on and lowkey envied those who were. this kind of reminds me of the shirley sherrod situation, except he didn’t lose his job.
all of that aside,they were definitely taking shots at those players and it was more than trash talk. they used words like “soft” “b*tch” “pretty boy” “overrated p*ssy” to describe their peers. how did they think people would receive that? is that usual talk for ball players?
“all of that aside,they were definitely taking shots at those players and it was more than trash talk. they used words like “soft” “b*tch” “pretty boy” “overrated p*ssy” to describe their peers. how did they think people would receive that? is that usual talk for ball players?”
Umm, I would think that’s MILD compared to the real trash talk fans don’t get to hear, LOL!
I agree. They talk HELLA SH*t on the court/rfield/whatever.
I’m actually in the process (not really but I’ve considered it) of creating a show in which I take clips of games and ad lib what I think players are saying to one another.
A few examples:
“You like how I ran that back don’t you p*ssy boy. You, in a ‘vette couldn’t catch me”
“Yo mama can catch a ball better than you ol b*tch azz ninja”
“This azz whooping hurts me more than it does you….don’t worry it’ll be over soon”
“You need more people”
“B*tch you are a non factor in this game” (shout out to EVE)
Yeah that’s a little intense but it’s still typical trash talk…particularly if players don’t care for each other. Nothing I haven’t heard before
“Yeah that’s a little intense but it’s still typical trash talk…particularly if players don’t care for each other. Nothing I haven’t heard before”
yeah, but stuff like this typically stays on the court and in the locker room, not in a documentary
I don’t hate Duke players, I hate their self absorbed, corny, nerd ass Camron Crazy fans. Never have I seen a wacker assortment of lames, goofs and cornballs.
Agreed with Champ’s point re: Grant Hill pent up frustration with being called an Uncle Tom. and Jalen Rose’s explanations notwithstanding, what did we really expect Grant to do? Jalen may have had a nuanced point, but the black blogoshpere/twitter seems to be all about defending Jalen and saying that we all “really” know the truth about Duke. I even agree with much of it. But Grant Hill got called out by name. He reacted appropriately, and got in that ass.
You bring up an interesting point in terms of black world defending Jalen. Now I agree that Jalen has caught much hell and this has been primarily by the mainstream media. I appreciate his honesty and understand his point. Even with Grant Hill response , you still get the backlash from some with the “grant hill get over it, you priviledged, you should not feel any hurt from Rose comment. Get over it even though you blackness has been called out all your life b/c you have it good.”. It is similar to harvard univ story where black party was shut down b/c it was “too hood”. People were calling the rebuttal from the student, dismissing his disappointment on some “don’t act like you above us regular folks”
you just made me think of another type of black pass that would go with yesterdays post– the “you come from a lower socioeconomic background so you can talk bad about those from a privileged background”
Personal feelings towards Duke aside. There is no way I can support Jalen’s Uncle Tom’s comment. For starters, its the wrong use of the term “Uncle Tom”, next the term should only be used by people who have read the book “Uncle Toms Cabin” which is a real catch-22 cuz then youd realize the statement makes no sense whatsoever. I think while Duke may not recruit out of the inner-city is it because they are snobby or because they want to maintain their academic standards? I am not implying that inner-city african-Americans cant go to Duke, im saying there academic standards may serve as a barrier to entry that is all. Duke is an elite Southern school first and a basketball program second.
Grant Hills response was appropriate, not even just based off of being called out by name but the media needed a response from a black Duke player to set the record straight and so AA do not need to be considered less “Black” because they were fortunate enough to have a black Daddy.
Here, here!
“AA do not need to be considered less “Black” because they were fortunate enough to have a black Daddy.”
Isn’t funny how we lament the problems black people have in America, yet when people overcome the barriers we ridicule them for not being black enough?
“One ever feels his two-ness,—an American, a Negro…two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.” -W.E.B Du Bois
if nothing else, Grant’s response should have also address the names that they called him on national television and pretty much attacked his masculinity.
this may not matter to some but I definitely think that jalen misspoke when he used the term “uncle tom.” everything that jalen highlighted in his comparison with grant hill were all about social status. everyone is arguing that jalen is calling these duke players’ “blackness” into question but I think he was ATTEMPTING to address issues of privilege more than anything else, but he failed. blame it on the michigan public school systems lol
@WIP yah its crazy, we cant win from losing.
@AC Dubois
I dont think we can go putting words into Jalen’s mouth. Issues of privilege? This would make more sense in the context of white legacy and NOT black families which just started going to school and chose to marry and send their son to school. According to Grant Hill he was 2nd Generation college student, not exactly a crazy level of privilege. I think Jalen just looked foolish for his commentary, simple as that. If he was attempting to address privilege he would have used a choice of another word, Uncle Tom is not what comes to my mind when interacting with even a snobby black person.
@ coldsweat3
privilege is privilege. how do you qualify a “crazy level” of privilege?? and trying to take black folks out of the conversation of privilege won’t work. there is a black legacy see Our Kind of People by Lawrence Otis Graham (http://www.amazon.com/Our-Kind-People-Inside-Americas/dp/0060984384). lets stop pretending that the only people who have privilege in this country are white folks.
I think I read someone’s comment below on the jack and jillers of the world and they pretty much highlighted how that privilege materializes for a lot of people
and lets be real, a lot of people don’t say what they mean a lot of times. i can’t change his words, but that’s how his comments came across to me before I heard everyone else’s interpretations. his word choice of “uncle tom” was poor, but his message is entirely the same
AMEN
(I’ve decided not to post any original thought, if I scroll down I’m sure someone else has said it for me)
I hate their self absorbed, corny, nerd ass Camron Crazy fans. Never have I seen a wacker assortment of lames, goofs and cornballs.
funny thing is, before going to the school, most of them didn’t (and still don’t) understand the game of basketball. true story – first week of school, all the freshman attend a pep rally in cameron where coach k screams profanities at them and teaches them all the cheers and chants.
@TF
But Grant Hill got called out by name. He reacted appropriately, and got in that ass.
exactly this.
He reacted appropriately, and got in that ass.
Agreed! And he did classy-like too.
I cannot stand the Duke for a myriad of reasons, but uncle tom was the wrong term to use. JUST WRONG. how about siditty (or however the hell that’s spelled lol), stuck up, snobby…but an uncle tom…cmon son!
I like both Grant and Jalen, and from what I heard they are friends, so yea Jalen could have and should have made it very clear that that was how he felt at 18/19 but not anyone, or he should have just used other words. Again I say, cmon son!
(Longhorns all the way!)
I like both Grant and Jalen, and from what I heard they are friends, so yea Jalen could have and should have made it very clear that that was how he felt at 18/19 but not anyone, or he should have just used other words. Again I say, cmon son!
Like I said above it’s pretty obvious in the documentary that that was the way he felt 19 years ago not today.
Maybe I should watch it again, but I don’t think they made it very clear about Duke and black players….at least to me.
Yes, it was not clear enough… but maybe I need to watch it again as well.
i havent seen it, but judging from what im reading/seeing – it’s not so obvious…
“but uncle tom was the wrong term to use. JUST WRONG”
I totally agree. I don’t particularly care about Duke (Go Kansas!!!), but uncle tom was just not right. Personally I was offended also. So you mean to tell me that just because very few of us black people who come from white collar families and live in $500,000+ suburbs are all uncle toms? smh Cas my dad was and still is far from being an “uncle tom”.
But anywho I still agree with Jalen.
The way this story has blown up in the media has just bothered me. The fact that Grant Hill felt the need to stoke the media fire really annoys me, but I suspect he was being pressured to give some kind of high minded response. Hence why he went to the NY Times, where the people who have no business chiming in on this topic will take him statement. In that sense, he’s basically demonstrated EXACTLY what Jalen was saying, even if it was ignorant in a sense.
Grant should’ve been man enough to be call him up, bury the hatchet and the two of them go out and do some inner city outreach. That would’ve been a response that would’ve done Malcolm, Martin and whoever else proud. Instead? We get two millionaires duking it out in the mainstream media over what it means to be black, essentially.
It’s frustrating and counter-productive.
Grant should’ve been man enough to be call him up, bury the hatchet and the two of them go out and do some inner city outreach.
i mention this downthread, but Jalen could also have let him know what he was gonna say too…lol. Via a phone call, and according to ESPN, Jalen just sent an errant arse “sorry” text to Grant Hill and then Grant saw the documentary and found out why he was apologizing. Takes two to tango. I do think Grant’s response should have been limited to: “I won a ring and I married Tamia. B*tch”
My brother is still a bit salty that Grant Hill was the man to take Tamia off of the market.
Come to think of it, every man that I know has made mention that Grant Hill is one lucky SOB, simply because he has Tamia as a wife.
IMO, because of this, I think Tamia is one of those underrated black s ex symbols.
hot canadian black women for the win!
*cough, cough…
I was mad at that too. Then he gave her MS.
Bwahahaha! He’s the one who gave her MS… Hilarity.
If anything, her having MS and him staying by her side means that Duke dudes do get something right… marriage. #shotsfired.
You know who else was married? Uncle Tom. You know who wasn’t married? Jesus. Just saying…
::clutches chest::
Tell my mother that I loved her.
I’m only lurking today because I have too much work to do to be messing with y’all nuckas today. However, Meech, your comment has kilt me dead, and I needed you to know that.
Bwahahahaha! iCan’t with you today.
@Ron
why is it OK for Rose and the others of the Fab 5 to speak their minds in the commentary about the players/teams they played against in a documentary, but its not OK for a player specifically called out in said documentary commentary to have a response??? that makes NO sense. so hes supposed to just shut up and not have a reaction? FOH.
this wasnt a comment that was made about Hill in secret and just so happened to be leaked to the public and Hill blew it up. the comments made were on national TV — in a reknown film series hosted by ESPN. so EVERYBODY is listening and watching. Rose didnt call Hill to alert him to his comments ahead of time. so why would it make sense for Hill to keep his comments about the documentary to himself and Rose?? again, FOH.
theyve known each other since they were in HS. and for some one you consider a friend and colleague to say such harsh things about you on NATL TV simply because of your family upbringing and college-recruitment has GOT to be a blow. Hill had every right to publicly clear the air and set the record straight.
ESPN had Jalen in their documentary. And then this stupid story keep getting ink, so he had to clarify because the powers that be seem to think he owed them an explanation. Grant should’ve been smart enough to realize what was happening here. That’s all I’m saying.
Ron, c’mon.
I mean, a friend talks about me (and a sizeable amount of the Black population mind you) on National TV with no prior information on what he said, and I have to monitor my reaction? I think not.
I mean, if someone were to call me an Uncle Tom just based on what my background is, I would respond to them as well. Now if said person has a problem with it, they should check themselves before talking crazy.
alla dis!!!!
whoa homes…you got that all wrong. lol. Jalen Rose is the exec producer of the documentary. in fact, he, jimmy king, ray jackson, and juwan were listed as producers. it was their call. ESPN had nothing to do with it. It just aired on ESPN. Jalen is clarifying b/c of something he said that he said and included intentionally in a documentary that he had final say in. it was his call. this wasn’t an ESPN thing at all. hell, like i said, Jalen texted Grant Hill to say “sorry” ahead of time b/c he knew what was coming b/c he had it in there on purpose. not that it was meant to be a dis to Grant Hill, but he knew what kind of impression it was going to have.
im glad you mentioned them being producers because clearly ppl dont read credits.
I think that this is sad, especially for the black community. we should be just as happy when we see the success of a black person from a good home as when we learn of another black’s rags-to-riches story. In my opinion, if they didn’t cheat and cut corners to gain their success, then I am happy for people in both situations. It’s not like Hill got things handed to him because of how he grew up. He still had to work hard to get to where he is. He still had to go to practice, do drills, lift weights, and do all that basketball stuff just like they did. And lets say they did recruit him because of his background? Thats Duke’s issue, not his. He had talent to go with his background. Why pass up an opportunity to play with one of the best college teams especially if you have dreams of making it to the NBA.
precisely.
“Thats Duke’s issue, not his. ”
Exactly!
“It’s not like Hill got things handed to him because of how he grew up. He still had to work hard to get to where he is. He still had to go to practice, do drills, lift weights, and do all that basketball stuff just like they did.”
***nodding head***
And lets say they did recruit him because of his background? Thats Duke’s issue, not his. He had talent to go with his background. Why pass up an opportunity to play with one of the best college teams especially if you have dreams of making it to the NBA.
exactly this.
for the record i will be rooting for hampton against duke in the first round. #goMEAC!!!!
So will I
smh….po’ Hampton…..*whisper* ’bout to get that @ss taxed!
Nonetheless…I’ll be rooting for them too!
20 bucks says that’s not on your bracket though.
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!! (was looking for this)
just wanted to add that (especially since I noticed the change in the title lol) uncle tom is a term most people don’t understand when they use it. i doubt most people who reference the term have read the title novel.
thing is “uncle tom” is one of those terms whose meaning has evolved. you don’t have to have read uncle tom’s cabin to know what calling someone an uncle tom means
champ, did you run this post by panama? i’m only asking because there’s gonna be a lot of well reasoned arguments about why the blue devils are terrible, horrible, taco bell eating, cabrini green child-raping, napalm village burning, tea party people. so, what i’m saying is, i just want to know how you wrote this knowing your better half is a dookie *without* having gone there, which is the biggest sin of all, panama.
p.s. fcuk a dookie, boiler up. that is all.
its funny cuz Champ and I had a full convo about this too. especially when Champ was ready to join the dark side when Kyrie Irving signed with Duke. lol
i just CAN NOT understand fandom for an evil institution that you didn’t go to. i thought we were friends! i believed in you! i trusted you! *cries one native american tear*
tears aside, i will say that coach K is good at what he does. i mean, he took cro magnon man himself (aka singler) and made him some sort of legend.
cuz i went to an hbcu. if i dont pick a squad to stick to then i have nobody to root for. but also, i like good basketball. and like it or not, Duke is always in that conversation. plus, i loved Jay Williams and JJ Redick. lol
“cuz i went to an hbcu”
is this a cautionary tale of why you shouldn’t allow your kids to attend one?
“i loved jay williams and jj redick.”
when you start taping for season 3 of basketball wives, make sure you don’t cross evelyn and tami.
is this a cautionary tale of why you shouldn’t allow your kids to attend one?
not at all. and i’ll go on ahead and let that shots fired pass since you clearly don’t know no betta.
oh, and shots fired.
“i just want to know how you wrote this knowing your better half is a dookie *without* having gone there, which is the biggest sin of all, panama.”
so, panama’s my wife now?
until you get married. lol
i thought that was where the “love and relationships” part came from.
(my apologies to lady champ)
Funny!!
You got to deal with Duke. 9 times out of 10 they are going to be a factor. Anyway, most hoop fans I know hate Duke too (except there always seems to be one who loves them). I fall into the hate Duke group but, I like some of thier players. Its almost like the NBA. I hate some teams but, like some of thier players. Duke has a lot to attract a hater’s vitriol. The official ‘America’s Team’ stamp from the college basketball hype machine. They hate that the get comes from calls they get (in my Shaq vs. Divac mode “quit floppin b**ch) and the way that Dickie ‘V’ swang on they n*ts like Donkey Kong on a vine. I have to turn the TV down to watch them play when he’s announcing. Most of the successful coaches have gotten involved in some scandal but, Coach K generally has not. I think we haters are waiting for the day….. (I knew it niqqa, I told you!)
i will say this. i do understand the Duke hate from a media standpoint. its the same way they hold up a random white player like Tyler Hansbrough. or the same way freakin’ Aaron Rodgers got all this love. so i do understand the Duke hate from that standpoint. And if they didnt have legitimately good college ballers, I’d probably hate them too.
But JJ Redick was my dog. lol. bad poetry and rap aspirations included. dude was a killer in crunchtime. and even Kyle Singler had it in him last year. Nolan Smith is murder. i think these kids go to Duke knowing they’re going to be hated and i appreciate them stepping up to that challenge. i just wish the media would let that b*tch breathe.
though seroiusly…as a college hoops fan, who couldn’t appreciate how much everybody hated jj redick. LOL even i did and i loved dude.
“…i do understand the Duke hate from a media standpoint. its the same way they hold up a random white player like Tyler Hansbrough. or the same way freakin’ Aaron Rodgers got all this love..”
::looking out for fellow cheeseheads::
Even though I am a Green Bay fan, I have to agree with you about Aaron Rodgers.
thans wasn’t some random white kid though. dude was balling. broke many records at carolina. and once that lame coach for the pacers got the boot and he’s been getting playing time, he’s been putting up #s. and he did this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PPxckb3QgI to amare!
i saw that dunk on A’mare and i wasnt that impressed. more like it had been hyped up so much i thought tyler had straight banged on him.
anyway…i thought tyler was overrated, completely. never liked him. he was like all the famously overrated white boys from duke that folks hate.
i think i just hate (contradiction coming) when some of these white dudes get all this shine for simply being better than the average white dude in college. except jimmer. lol. jimmer is a motherf*cking monster. except he plays in the WAC.
“Psycho T” gave Dook that work! You can’t really call him underrated. He outright carried – willed even – UNC to some victories while he was there. AND he was undefeated in Cameron Indoor.
Let be clear Duke is a program where great point guards go to perish. Ask Sean Dockery who is from my city of Chicago. Go back and see how highly recruited and hyped he was in the Chi and his career failed trying to run the Duke System. Guards from duke do not do well in the NBA, and only JJ has made a career as just a 3 pt specialist
trajan landon – bust
bobby hurley-bust
daniel ewing- 1 yr pro
jay williams 1 yr because he wanted to be evil kinivil
sean dockey- never made it
john shycher- never made it and would have if he never went to duke
co-sign on all points.
I feel sorry for Austin Rivers(doc rivers son) he committed to dook, thats like signing your nba death sentence. if you goto dook you have about a 15% of having productive nba career and 5% of having all-star career
you think Scheyer would have made it to the league if he didn’t go to Duke? Granted I think his game was underrated but I dont know that going to Duke ruined that for him.
yeah, some of those guys listed weren’t really that good to begin with. sometimes a player signing with duke causes them to get a bit more overhyped than they should be
He forgot about Duhon though…coulda sworn I saw him last night in an NBA uniform…i’ve said this earlier in a thread too…i was bred in ACC Country, am an Aggie and a Deac, but people kill me with the Duke doesn’t produce pros argument…that doesn’t hold water anymore…
Brand
Boozer
Duhon
Deng
Redick- decent
Battier
Grant Hill (funny how ppl mention his injuries, yet he’s still playing an Jalen Rose isn’t anymore)…
(McRoberts, Dunleavy, Maggette, Shelden get no love in this list..they suck)
Grant Hill aside, no other team in the ACC (especially the Heels) really has NBA players that are pretty decent from the past 7-8 years….
And funny how everyone mentions the busts, hell if HALF of the busts would have done somethin, we’d all hate Duke cuz they’d have so many pros…
and why is my comment awaiting moderation..lol
Stop.
Felton and Lawson are killing in Denver right now.
Hanbrough has finally shown up in Indy.
Marvin Williams is legit.
Brenden Haywood’s sorry azz is still serviceable.
And there’s still plenty of time for Ellington, McCants and the like to become major.
That’s just recent talent.
Bigger picture though: You’ll never (Ever) be able to compare Duke to UNC in terms of the caliber (and quantity) of pros sent to the NBA. That’s undeniable…hate aside. Grant Hill is the gold standard of Duke players achieving NBA success. I once thought Brand had a chance to surpass him. I was wrong.
Felton, Lawson….that’s IT….
Marvin Williams is a BUST! avgs 10 pts 5 rebs a game…he sucks…
Hansbrough…10 and 5…Haywood has had only 1 season in 10+ that he’s avg over 10 pts & 10 rebs (not in the same season btw)
McCants = 1 season avg over 10 ppgs in his 5-6…
But notice I said LAST 7-8 yrs…Boozer’s WORST year in last 3 is 16 & 10…Deng, Brand, Battier are doin well too….if you pull the stats out, and take the Carolina Blue blinders off your eyes, you’ll see the truth…
Numbers don’t lie…and sh*t….haha…i’m done w/ this though, cuz i’m not a Duke fan, but sentences like “Marvin Williams is legit” make me want to go throw up….the #2 pick in the 2005 Draft is a BUST….cmon man…you really BELIEVE that?
big men go there to perish too.
Jalen was FAR from alone from his hatred of Duke. The power of my disdain for Duke could easily sustain the energy needs for the entire Eastern Seaboard for 2 years (particularly during the early 90′s). And it wasn’t because they were arrogant (they were), it wasn’t because they played dirty (they did), it wasn’t that they talked trash (they still do it now) it wasn’t because the refs put on a Duke jersey underneath their white striped shirts while calling their games (they still do that, but truthfully they do it for Carolina too), it wasn’t even because they were good (they clearly were)… it’s that they were excused for transgressions, that teams with heavier African American influence were vilified for.
That’s what I hated, the very real sense that there were 2 sets of rules. I inexorably begin to hate the beneficiary of the dual standards and cheer for those oppressed by the dual standards. (I’m going through it right now with Mel Kiper constantly talking down Cam Newton and talking up Blaine Gabbert).
I don’t specifically dislike Duke due to something inherent about them, but they are the repository of my hate because they are the symbol and the hope of people desperate to hang on to a past long gone; a past when “they were in charge”, “they set the rules” and “blacks knew their place”. It’s strange how we continue to have this social battle via sports.
Duke vs. Michigan and (UNLV vs. Duke) was just an extension of Ali-Frazier, which itself may be an extension of the legacy of Boxing great Jack Johnson. That legacy: talented and arrogant black who refused to stay in their place. And for folks tripping on Jalen referring to black people attending Duke as Uncle Toms, recall what was said about Joe Frazier in his battles with Ali. None of this is new. Same beat, different rapper.
Insightful points, folk…esp. the comparison between ball & boxing
@DG,
I respect you tooting your horn! I heard that! LOL
While I’m not opposed to an occasional self-pat on the back, me and Holmes are two different people….so it was a genuine compliment. Lol
Oh dayum! My apologies! LOL@me. I totally missed the DG and DQ. Sorry!
One of you should get an avatar.
I cosign this statement. It can get confusing at times.
No, we will offer no avatars. In an effort to continue to be confused with one another we will continue to post without ready identifiers, thus giving us maximum flexibility to shift blame for errant comments or take credit for good comments.
I Co-sign. That’s exactly why another Meech got in trouble with the law for some dirt I did back when I used to run in Detroit.
It was a dayum good point by the way…
Just so I clarify what I was saying, just like Frazier, it’s not about Duke so much, it’s about who’s cheering for them. The Fab 5, UNLV, Ali, Jack Johnson, they inspired pride in the African American community because they represented our refusal to be told how to act, how to live, and our refusal to live by “their” standards of what was right. The Fab 5 et al were the “unsafe” kind of negro. One that doesn’t heel on command, that doesn’t look up to you, that doesn’t aspire to be you, that doesn’t subscribe to nor feel bound to pay fealty to your authority. And they were all universally hated for doing so.
Don’t forget about the Georgetown Hoyas in the earlier eighties. They definitely refused to bow down and play by the traditional rules of the game.
Peace!!!!!!!
I’m a Hoyas fan to this day because of the early 80 Hoyas. I have them losing early in this year’s tournament, but I always liked Georgetown.
“And for folks tripping on Jalen referring to black people attending Duke as Uncle Toms, recall what was said about Joe Frazier in his battles with Ali. None of this is new. Same beat, different rapper.”
It’s not that it is new, it needs to stop. Why are we okay with it continuing? Our thinking needs to change. If it were said about Frazier, it was wrong then too.
And for folks tripping on Jalen referring to black people attending Duke as Uncle Toms, recall what was said about Joe Frazier in his battles with Ali.
you know, joe frazier never forgave ali for any of that uncle tom sh*t either. still hurts him to this day
indeed
still hurts him to this day
As it should.
Did Ali start the Uncle Tom narrative though (or did he just exploit it)?
Jalen was FAR from alone from his hatred of Duke.… it’s that they were excused for transgressions, that teams with heavier African American influence were vilified for.
@DQ
*smh* im sad to say this is the first time im disappointed in your comment lol.
again, this is all DUKE’s problem and the NCAA/fans/commentators who encourage it. why is this GRANT HILL the individual player’s problem??
are black players not supposed to go to Duke in order to preserve this idea of being “down for the cause” and not playing into Duke’s favor-ability and coveted-ness by the media/elite-masses?
thats not fair.
LOL Gem I think you’re disappointed because you are arguing how you feel it should be, and I’m describing how it is. If there is a perceived cause, and you are perceived to be working against it, you will be criticized…
…HARSHLY. That’s not some special punishment invented solely for Grant Hill, that applies to everyone in all walks of life. Example, have you ever heard the pejorative “Self-Hating Jew”? I promise you Noam Chomsky has. Whether the criticisms are justified or not (in this instance or the instance of Grant Hill) is purely a subjective exercise. We are all free to believe whatever we like. But the notion that somehow Grant should inherently be exempt from criticism leveled at a program of which he was a part seems – dubious.
The argument that you are attempting to make right now could easily be made for black republicans. Yes, I know the racism issue is the problem of the Republican party and their power brokers, why does it have to be Allen West’s problem?
Are black politicians not supposed to be Republican in order to preserve the “idea of being down”?
Do your feel your argument still sound as credible when applied to Black Republicans? Do you feel they should be exempt from criticism levied at an institution to which they belong?
See, I don’t like the Republican party (mostly I don’t like a social conservatism as a whole) but I still admire Ms. Condoleeza Rice. Because she did a lot of things I want to do…. Certainly in a different arena, but her being Republican does NOT in my eyes take away from her accomplishments. Do I disagree with 100% of her policies? Yup. But she is a black girl who speaks fluent Russian, plays the hell out of a piano and became the right hand of an American president. And that is something to be admired for.
Is Clarence Thomas also to be admired also? He has afterall accomplished much as well. Highly educated. Is he exempt from criticism that is levied at his party because of his accomplishments?
I personally say no.
But that’s not based on his Republican-ism if you will but more so because his character is shady true and true.
Rod Blagojevich is a democrat and I despise him as well. Because his character is not in line with things I stand for. So let’s not confuse people’s ideologies with who they are… Yes, it’s a part of it but it’s not all of it. The more we learn to do that, the better we will be (especially those people in Congress).
Where you talking about Condoleeza’s character earlier when you said she should be admired for speaking Russian and playing Piano? You don’t feel her role in the Iraq debacle is a more pertinent and substantive metric for gauging who she is?
I was considering her character as well. Her role in the Iraq Debacle goes hand in hand with her political ideologies. And she should get blamed for them for sure. Doesn’t mean I still can’t admire her. Like I said up thread, ideologies are part of a whole. Clarence Thomas just doesn’t seem very smart (personal opinion) thus he warrants no admiration. Colin Powell is a Republican I also admire… So one’s ideology doesn’t necessarily put them in the “I should hate you” bracket… Differences of opinion is just that differences of opinion.
Condoleeza Rice is on the wrong side of the aisle according to my personal beliefs, but she has a good head on her shoulders… and I admire her for that.
Her ideology is shared though. That’s the thing. She wasn’t the only one advocating war in Iraq. The plancks of Middle East Transformation through Regime Change was a Neo Conservative idea. I oppose that idea, and the institution that continues to champion it. I think these people put the concerns of the state of Israel ahead of concerns of the United States. If she chooses to be associated with that, then doesn’t she rightfully deserve my criticism too?
LOL Gem I think you’re disappointed because you are arguing how you feel it should be, and I’m describing how it is.
no im not. i still dont think its a STUDENTs problem. Duke is a damn good school, and anybody who has the opportunity to go there and have it PAID FOR is one lucky bastard. and to be part of a prestigious WINNING basketball program? yeah, go for it. because not only are you going to gain a damn good education, you’re also going to be able to hone your talents as a basketball player.
so because Duke often gets away with elitism and tends to only recruit a “certain kind of player” Black students should stay away?? nah, i dont agree with that.
and to compare all this to the Republican party is silly, IMHO. because political parties influence how GOVERNMENT is run on the local, state, and federal level — at least , if not all 3 are going to affect ME, my family, and my community directly. a Black kid playing bball for Duke doesnt influence sh*t about my life or anybody i know who doesnt go to Duke or any of their rival matches.
and ill just say this — i dont know much about Duke’s basketball program other than it has a legacy of greatness (in terms of Tourney appearances and championships) and that it takes pride and apparently goes to great lengths in having athletes who are in high academic standing and arent “trouble makers” (at least not publicly). why should i have a problem with that? why should i dislike an institution and the players who are involved in their athletic programs because they may be snobby/arrogant as a result of their privilege and world has stamped them as “America’s team”?
Yuck to this entire response. I won’t torture you or the other commenters with a point for point rebuttal, but I don’t agree, and I agree to disagree on this one.
am i only one that remembers the duke Lacrosse scandal(black stripper and white duke lacrosse players?? yea that was another race relation #fail against duke smh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case
except it turns out that the chick was lying. lol. and basically scamming the players. everybody hated the duke lacrosse team. i only like duke basketball in general. but man, that b*tch tried to sell them up a river and got busted and took out the DA who wento so hard on them too. lol.
every now and then, we get one wrong. ask Al Sharpton.
http://captainrhettbutleriii.blogspot.com/2011/03/it-dont-matter-if-youre-black-or-white.html
thanks?
I know very little about basketball, but I do attend a Division I school in the SEC. Our basketball program has been getting better lately though since the change in coaching after my freshman year. If Black Duke players really do have a history of coming from affluent backgrounds I have no issue with it and I understand why they would recruit this way.
The basketball players at my school usually aren’t from that background and the one thing I remember the new coach having to “beat’ out of them was their lack of respect. Players were use to coming to practice whenever the hell they wanted to as if they were the ish, getting into trouble, and such as if our basketball program was highly ranked. I think in their minds they didn’t view the opportunity of being able to play at a Division I school a privilege, rather the SCHOOL should feel privileged to have THEM as if they were Jesus (no, not like He Got Game). Most of them go to class not giving a f*ck b/c they know some little White girl will let them cheat off of her paper just b/c he’s an athlete. I’m sure in most of their heads they believe they’ll go into the pros, but only 4 of the Fab 5 were drafted into the NBA if I’m correct. I don’t blame this on them rather their family for putting more emphasis on the pros than the books. I’m sure most of them barely had the GPA and SAT/ACT scores needed to get in.
I believe when you come from a background such as Grant Hill’s you grow up learning that nothing is handed to you no matter what. You learn you have to work hard to earn your place b/c it is not guaranteed. I’m sure if you look at what Black Duke players major in you won’t see Family & Consumer Sciences (or whatever the easiest major is) all across the board. They’ve learned to value their education just as highly (higher actually) as playing basketball.
what school are you at? alabama?
(btw, only three of the fab five actually had NBA careers)
To hell with Bama…lol. I go to Georgia.
Well….only 3/5 has SUBSTANTIAL careers. How about that? We can count signing a contract, attending practices, going through trainings, and (maybe) sitting on a bench during a game or two as a career, right?
Sorry, I love my Maize and Blue…gotta make sure credit is given where due (yep, Jimmy King counts).
I thought Jalen Rose clarified that that was how he thought when he was 17/18 years old. He said in the documentary he was jealous of Hill and his family and that he was bitter. He also admitted his feelings about Laetner being a b!tch changed when he got on the court with him.
They were all (those that participated) so honest and real. They told the truth based on how they felt against an opponent when they were kids. Truth is, anyone who has played would have felt that or something like it. Many are posting have felt that to some degree, if not to that extreme. I didn’t like my team rivals either. I loved the documentary and respected what was said. I respected those brotha’s honesty. There were honest about it all, good, bad, and ugly.
I respect that the documentary addressed the hate mail they received for being black. So if you are playing on a team, doing well, and you being you, a black man, is unacceptable and has alums call you the n-word, death threats, etc. They are saying you are less than because you are who you are…..Well, at 17/18 dealing with all of that, I can understand a kid saying something charged like “Uncle Tom”. I can understand a kid feeling that them (Duke), over there, are not like me and don’t have to deal with what I gotta deal with and NEVER DID. I’m not saying it’s right, but I understand.
That said, that’s not all I understand. I understand Grant Hill bristling and defending himself and his family. I understand what was said and HOW it was said within the context of the documentary, but who am I to say what that brotha can and can not do when his essence as a black man was called into question. Naw, Grant Hill is entitled to handle it how he sees fit and I felt he handled it well. A whole documentary allowed them to say their peace, so he can say his.
Hopefully everybody is still cool or will be.
*oops, piece
Please release my comment. I wasn’t bad!
I agree with all of this. I understand both sides. I understand Rose expressing his feelings as honestly as he did (instead of sugar coating it to make it politically correct) and I understand G. Hill responding the way he did.
The doc also made mention of them saying that they hated Ohio State, stated the names of the players they hated and called them F–keyes….I know the racially charged issue hurts more, but like I said, it is stuff a team may say about rivals and they were honest about how it was. Again, it’s not right but I understand, and my point is that Duke was not the only team they hated.
“I know the racially charged issue hurts more, but like I said, it is stuff a team may say about rivals and they were honest about how it was”
this is true. and, although i still maintain that i’m disappointed by rose’s comments/lack of clarification, i do appreciate his honesty
The doc was really well done. I agree that while we can assume Jalen’s feelings about Grant/Duke were from the past, I too wish they’d made just the slightest bit of effort to make it clear that those were PAST feelings – inserting a simple, “Back then…” before he started describing those feelings would have done the trick. But Jalen & other Fab 5 members were producers on the project, so maybe they wanted to be a bit more provocative & leave it slightly cloudy.
I don’t have a problem w/ Grant’s response – yea, its lengthy but if he’s feeling attacked (no matter the era) he has a right to speak on it.
The person I’m waiting to hear from is Webber – they went IN on him. I know they had to b/c that’s the story, but I was cringing for him the whole time! LOL…. never realized someone on the bench was giving him the signal – trippy!
“The person I’m waiting to hear from is Webber – they went IN on him. ”
me too, lol. Panama and I joked the other day that the doc should have been renamed “fab five: the story of how chris webber gets thrown under the bus”
LOL
I was listening to Jalen on the BS Report with Bill Simmons and he said that although they all had a chance to have a full share in what was discussed in the doc Chris didn’t want to participate. The podcast was a good listen and Jalen shared a lot about the whole Chris Webber/Ed Martin saga and his feelings about it.
I thought the stuff on Webber was fair. The time out discussion during a big game was fair (an honest mistake, him feeling horribly and devastated, the team feeling for him, and a possible person on the bench yelling for him to call a TO). His actions and what he did seemed to ring true for me. Even down to them saying at the gate that he was trying to be this “street kid” that he was not when they first were recruiting the players (early in the documentary).
Honestly, I have gone back and worth between liking Chris Webber and disliking him for b!tchmade behavior. Some of the stuff reinforced my ideal that I wasn’t to far off in my criticism. Yet, I would have like to hear from him, but 4 outta five isn’t bad. It’s always one who goes rogue.
I was shocked too! Lol.
“…the doc should have been renamed “fab five: the story of how chris webber gets thrown under the bus”
LMAO!! I read somewhere that he tweeted about telling his side of the story some day. The “time-out” thing has to still haunt him so I can understand him not wanting to revisit it. Still, the doc could have been 3 hrs long had he participated!!
I also wish the guys who didn’t go on to make an impact in the NBA could have elaborated a bit more about what went wrong for them. I wasn’t following back then, so it would have been interesting to go a little more in depth on that.
you will never hear from chris webber. he pretends none of the negative things in his life exist. lol.
^I can totally see that.
“But i know something about you,You went to Cranbrook’s that’s a private school,
What’s the matter dog? You embarrassed?
This guy’s a gangsta his real name’s Clarence
And Clarence lives in home with both parents
And Clarence’s parents have a real good marriage,” – 8mile
My favourite part from the movie and it makes the white guy(Slim) seem more black( more connected to the crowd). It must be really hard for middle class blacks in the states who live like this, Im lucky coz growing up in SA most of the blacks i grew up around and Im still affiliated with come from families just like mine.
puffthemagicdragon FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*offers daps
Great use!! Kudos. LOL
Whas funny about all of this, is that from what I understand, a lot of black Duke players also hated the school. Or rather, they hated the snoodiness that surrounded the University.
I’m too lazy to find the source, but I remember reading somewhere that a Duke student/alum once wrote Elton Brand a letter condemning him and Corey Maggette for leaving early. In his response he laughed at her and even thanked her, because she reminded him of all the reasons why he left that stuck up University. Bascially, he just went there to help his career, but he hated the things that Duke represented.
A friend of mine ran into Jay Williams and asked him why he chose Duke, and essentially had the same thoughts as Brand. He went there for his career, but didn’t like the atmosphere. Of course, I doubt he’d ever go on record as saying this.
I know one player often given a pass is Luol Deng. He’s given an excuse because he didn’t know about the stigma of Duke. Anyway, interesting read. I am a little curious about the timing of Grant Hill’s comments, but at the same time I can understand. Even if Rose and King’s remarks weren’t made today, it was still an attack on his family.
Luol Deng? Maaaan….F him too! He should have went to UVa!
F UVA, and I went there.
Correction: F UVA basketball.
….if that’s how you feel….
I know one player often given a pass is Luol Deng
That’s really true. I have a young cousin who is being considered for college B-Ball programs… We don’t know isht about how a school is represented or not… All the information his dad has are basic stats about school performance. The dad does not live here… He called me up and asked my opinion about some schools… And while I’m able to offer some sort of insight into certain programs, how do I explain to an African father that his kid should not go to a top-rated American university FOR FREE because there is a stigma attached to black players who go there?
It’s really difficult… and sometimes kids get caught up in it. I personally hope he goes to UConn or Ohio State, but that’s not for me to decide…
OK……
Kyrie Irving better than Chris Jackson…or Kenny Anderson? Nope. LMAO ( I realize they werent on your list…but I just didint think he was better nor has the potential to be better than them in college), lol
Now….
With that said, I see where G. Hill is coming from too. He DOES have a reason to feel some sorta way about Jalens comments. It aint his fault that his dad played pro-ball, had an Ivy League education and his mom had a GREAT career, lol.
Yes, the NCAA DID give EVERY call…and every benefit of the doubt to Duke….To a degree, I feel like that today….but ESPECIALLY back then, with the run of final fours they were on. Now…I KNOW they were VERY good….and what they accomplished given the landscape or college b-ball will probably NEVER happen again. But…it helps when your program is a “blueblood” program that the NCAA “banks” on to “sell their product (the “idea” of the “cartel a$$” NCAA being wholesome and altruistic).
And I feel like this and I had a cousin who PLAYED for Duke when Alaa Abdelnabe and Danny Ferry played, lmao….(Yes he came from priviledge, too)
But Jalen Rose echoed pretty much what every other “black and underpriviledged” person felt at the time and still feels until this day. Some of it is warranted….some it is perceived……..but sheesh, There HAD to be some sort of merit to those feelings.
Where there’s smoke, there’s fire, lol
Yes, I STILL feel like the NCAA had a vendetta against UNLV in 1991 when Duke played them to officiate the game two different ways(And anybody whose ever played ball in the inner city and gone out to the “counties” to play against “them 2520 schools” knows that sick feeling of knowing that you have to blow those guys out, because if you dont, the refs are gonna do everything they can to help them beat you, lol)…one for Duke and one for UNLV….even though LJ prolly couldnt guard Grant Hill, lol….But What UNLV represented was the polar opposite of what Duke represented in the eyes of MANY…MANY people.
Ya know…you cant come from priviledge…AND get EVERY SINGLE questionable call to go your way….can you? ……..CAN YOU????? LOLOLOL
I felt the Duke players were arrogant, but that was no different than the “swag” (thats the first and last time I’ve ever used and ever WILL use that word) ofthe Michigan players…or the UNLV players…or ANY other players that came from any other inner vity school, lol. But it just seemed like they had an aura of, “not only are we better than you at b-ball…but we’re just “better” than you “ni**ers” period…lmao.
All this to say…. I understand where Jalen Rose is coming from…I KNOW that feeling. Sheesh, we should appreciate his candor if anything.
Oh yeah….and if I have a child that plays ball and wants to go to Duke…then I’m IMMEDIATELY pushing him to go. A degree from Duke DOES mean SOMETHING, LOL.
P.S. – I realize that this comment turned into a rant…but the wound still hasnt healed from that gut wrenching loss by UNLV to Duke.
“the Duke players were arrogant, but that was no different than the “swag” (thats the first and last time I’ve ever used and ever WILL use that word) of the Michigan players…or the UNLV players”
Honestly what basketball player isn’t arrogant lol.
Exactly. I think basketball is kinda like the hip hop of sports… it’s all about braggadocio.
“Kyrie Irving better than Chris Jackson…or Kenny Anderson? Nope. LMAO ( I realize they werent on your list…but I just didint think he was better nor has the potential to be better than them in college), lol”
i always thought kenny anderson was a bit overrated. too small and couldn’t shoot. chris jackson, on the other hand, was definitely a monster, but he was more of a scorer/shooter than a point guard
Freshman Kenny Anderson? Overrated? Couldn’t shoot?
Its hard to average 20 and 8 and not be a good shooter, lol
Anderson was a beast, I realize Bobby Hurley was only good in college and a bust in the NBA, but he made Hurley look like he hadn’t been vaccinated against Polio when he played against him.
F*ck Duke
Go Heels!
+1. Best comment I read today. lol.
+ another!
Uh, you know y’all lost on Sunday right?
So Shay, how did YOU feel during that shellacking of UNC in the ACC Championship game where Nolan Smith made Kendall Marshall his b*tch?
yeah, cuz carolina never beats dook. oh, wait….and i give nolan his props. but ty lawson pretty much made smith and the rest of the team his b*tch a few years ago, and hansbrough NEVER lost a game in cameron indoor. i fully expect kendall marshall to make someone his b*tch for the next 3 years.
i wonder how singler felt when dexter’s n*ts were in his face. perhaps that explains why he flopped ever so gracefully afterwards.
he didnt flop. he tripped. over the air.
Can’t even pretend to know NCAA…
My ‘rents were Nigerian immigrants, so having my “blackness” questioned was funny to me. I co-sign anyone who questions why the perception of being black (by black folk nonetheless) is not tied in to higher tax brackets, ivy league, or classical music.
I’ve got love for those unaccepted in the black community due to refusing the herd mentality all the while being barely accepted in other communities because of the perception that the color of their skin means they accept the herd mentality.
#nowinsituation
*puts head back into studying for the degrees that won’t keep her warm*
Stay black. Keep doin your thing.
Stay warm, too.
*likes this comment
While I don’t agree with J. Rose calling Black Duke players Uncle Toms I understand where he is coming from. The thing with Grant Hill is that he came from an AFFLUENT 2 parent family. Chris Webber comes from a working class 2 parent household and went to a prestigious private school. C. Webb wasnt poor but he wasn’t rich either. But does he get the Uncle Tom label? No he doesn’t because he is from the hood and represented the hood. Chris Webber and Shane Battier(Duke Player) went to the same high school in a wealthy area of Metro-Detroit but took different paths to get there. Shane Battier is from one of the wealthiest counties in the U.S. Chris Webber and jalen Rose are from the Northwest side of Detroit. While there are parts of the Northwest side that are similar to where Shane Battier is from the environments are totally different. I think calling them Uncle Tom’s was not the right word to use but he was 18 at the time. J. Rose also said “I FELT”
not “I FEEL”. Where I do think grant was wrong was putting Shane Battier’s wack @ss in his NYTimes editorial. That mofo is an Uncle Tom.
All this being said there is a difference between kids in the suburbs or more affluent areas and kids from the hood. I grew up in a middle class family in the hood. But I went to private school up to high school. A lot of those Black kids that weren’t from the hood were corny, spoiled, soft, and pretentious. None of my friends in my neighborhood were in Jack and Jill or Tots and Teens or even heard of the organizations. I think what we saw in the Fab 5 documentery is what 18 years thought not clearly articulated.
In moderation? Me no cuss.
This is incredibly off topic. But speaking of Shane Battier, can somebody please explain to me why he shaves his head? I rock the baldie. Both out of necessity and because I can. My head is smooth. That mfer’s head has wrinkles and folds and shït.
I mean, I’m not knockin the dudes head (or maybe I am, Lord forgive me), thas the way he was created or designed or whatever. I’m jus sayin. Shaving one’s head is a choice, and I don’t understand why he would choose that for himself especially when he doesn’t need to. It’s not like he’s goin bald.
How do you even cut all the way down to the scalp? I feel like you’d get scratched by the clippers tryin to get in between the wedges. I realize this is off topic and I’ve already written three paragraphs, but Shane Battier and his choice of hair cut have legitimately bothered me for a long time.
I need answers. Please.
Maybe he likes feeling the wind in his wedges.
Monday through Friday you always give me a reason to hate you.
@Bengemin Grehe
Whats worse than his head is his hairline meets his eyebrows.
This serves as both a general statement and a likely answer to Bengemin G’s question.
Two birds w/ one stone and sh#t…
This could be the answer.
*Wonders if NY2VA was talking about Shane when she said she knew someone with deep waves and that the waves were in his scalp*
Bengemin, you are not alone. His wavy scalp has puzzled me too and how he isn’t cutting into flesh. Does he pull the skin taut when he gets the clippers? Owno.
J. Rose also said “I FELT” not “I FEEL”. ..
Exactly! Which is why I don’t get why people are screaming for him to clarify that he doesn’t still feel that way. Like my daddy says “I don’t like to make it a habit of repeating myself”.
^Exactly….dude said he was “jealous” and “bitter”. So what else does he need to say to explain?
FINALLY! Someone else admits to being the same type of basketball fan I am. I am a fan of players so I root for the team they’re on. It’s only an issue when my favorite players are playing against each other. Then I simply watch because clearly someone is going to win.
When I was younger, I was all about team. My favorite players played for my favorite team. However, the older I get, the more I see how f’d up the leagues and owners are. The teams don’t give a damn about me. I’m all about the players.
“When I was younger, I was all about team. My favorite players played for my favorite team. However, the older I get, the more I see how f’d up the leagues and owners are. The teams don’t give a damn about me. I’m all about the players”
Co-sign completely!!! I grew up a Pacers fan, but now it’s all about my favorite players (D Wade and Carmelo). I’m only loyal to my favorite college bball team and my alumni (Go ‘Cuse!!!)
yeah, i realized i was more of a player fan than a team fan when jordan retired from the bulls and i didn’t give a damn about them anymore, lol
I’m the same – players first, team second (with just a shot of peripheral love for my hometown team – they suck, but I have to use them to see the good teams live so hey)…
I think it’s easier to be a player fan in the NBA…. unless you have a team that recruits based on a certain “team spirit” (toots my team’s horn! Go SPURS!
)…. But I definitely hate teams because of certain players… and I do like players and follow them based on that (My CP3 is the REAL CP3)… 
I’m 100% in agreement with this here post.
thanks and shit
I hate when black people put other black people in a box.
I’ll just throw this out there- is Jalen Rose a scholar or something? Why is Grant Hill reacting because he said something ignant?
I also enjoyed the last episode of Seinfeld.
That is all.
LOL! So this post really was about basketball? I thought it was about “when black people put other black people in a box.”
Cuz everybody is talking about basketball, which I like, but meh….
you’re right…jalen never put his comment in context, nor did he say “that is how i felt at the time”.
i think he probably kind of still feels that way.
That’s really the sense I have.
I’m buying the documentary as a gift for The Dude (because he idolized the Fab Five) and didn’t see it (lives overseas)… Maybe then I will hear the commentary while they were making the film and get more “perspective”… because ninja sounded a little bit salty still if my spidey sense is correct.
” And while Rose and King obviously were speaking about their past feelings, I don’t think either of them really stressed how wrong they were to feel that way, and that was very disappointing. ”
This couldn’t have been articulated better. I posted a link to Grant Hill’s response on my facebook wall and caught a firestorm from people that were clearly bothered that Grant would feel the need to respond or that I reported his response. For those calling someone an “Uncle Tom” whether it be when you were teenagers or grown adults, please stop. It is offensive, whether you talk about it in past tense or not.
I understand the message behind the Fab 5 documentary. It was a great documentary. These men came from not the most stable environment, but were able to rise up. Great! Good for them. I think Grant Hill’s response was valid, ff not to educated Jalen, to educate the young people of today.
I understand the message behind the Fab 5 documentary. It was a great documentary.
yeah, i neglected to mention it in the entry, but it really was a great documentary
I loved Grant Hill’s takedown. Jalen should have done more to characterize that his thoughts/feelings have changed. There is nothing wrong with saying “i used to believe some ignant ish” and hen saying you changed. Just putting it out there is reckless, and he deserved the #shotsfired that Mr. Hill sent his way.
Agreed.
I think Grant Hill’s response was valid, ff not to educated Jalen, to educate the young people of today.
indeed. i always see things beyond the general scope. so many people — hell plenty of ADULTS included — that need to hear this. we (black folk) do such a terrible job of stereotyping each other and causing further divide amongst each other. its one thing to call somebody names on the court, but to bring it to light that those are feelings that carrief well off the court is just sad and unfortunate.
I had no problem with Jalen Rose’s comments. They were honestly what he felt and like many have said, that’s been the general perception of Duke from the standpoint of many of “us”. I don’t think he was obligated to explicitly state he doesn’t feel that way now…I thought it was implied enough. While “Uncle Tom” is maybe taking it too far, you can’t deny that Duke seems to recruit a certain type of individual. Not saying it’s wrong but it’s there. As great a player as he was, a cat like AI could’ve never gone to Duke. I wonder if Rose, Juwan Howard, etc. were even recruited by them.
That being said, yeah Hill has a right to speak his piece because that’s arguably the most hurtful thing you can be called by another Black man. Interesting though how such a multifaceted issue within our community is being broadcast to others who may struggle to understand why Rose felt how he did.
Ya know, why would anybody think Jalen doesn’t feel that way now? Most of us here feel that way now and we don’t even have any personal reason to. At least he had just cause in his mind. In fact, I’m pretty sure he won’t say it out loud b/c he’s smarter now…but Jalen probably still feels some kind of way about Coach K and the whole Duke program even if he is able to recognize that it is a good basketball program.
His beef is the kind of players Duke recruits…and they still recruit the same kinds of players. So why would Jalen’s mind be any different now?
I think he still feels the same way too. Lol
In a follow up interview he mentioned that he understood the type of program that Duke ran, but he stopped short of saying he didn’t still feel that way. Hell he said Duke would recruit HIS kids now, but not him. Yeah he still feels that way. LOL
And truth be told, I think we as people think all kinds of f*cked up thoughts on the regular. We just don’t have the balls or platform to admit it out loud.
This post summed up my sentiments about Duke better than I EVER could!
The first time I EVER cried over a game, it was a loss against Duke…by 1 point….at home.
That sh!t STILL burns.
B!tches.
“The first time I EVER cried over a game, it was a loss against Duke…by 1 point….at home.”
where did you go?
BTW, I had Duke taking it all in last year’s work bracket pool and won! Well, I tied…but that’s only because ol’ dude had more in the final four than me. But, still… *Duke Dougie*
They never should have made it there. For a team that was ranked 4th, or rather, 4th amont the number 1 seeds, they had the easiest bracket I’d ever seen. Ridiculous. I’m not the only one who feels this way either.
whoopty do. They still had to play the games and win. lol.
That’s the problem with that argument, they still have to win. Nobody handed it to them. Hell, they almost lost in the Final.
And how do you feel about their bracket this year with UConn, Texas, and SDSU in it?
I’m not filling out a bracket this year. Why? Cuz I haven’t watched any college basketball. Don’t ask.
Still tho, the brackets DO matter. Put them in any other bracket last year, and I don’t think they reach the final four. Sigh. Maybe I’m jus hater.
yeah son…that’s hateration. THEY STILL GOTTA WIN. lol
Okay as someone who went to school in triangle area, I can’t stand Duke!!! My hatred for this school runs deep. People who went to Duke always had this elitist attitude, now I maybe be generalizing here but everyone I met from just seemed have this eff y’all I go to Duke air about them. They would come to parties on our campus ( and of the basketball team players too, Carlos Boozer and Jayson Willams) can I just say Jayson Williams is a dumb@ss but anyway they would come to the parties and just expect everybody to flock to where they were, and start chanting “Duke, Duke mf”. Anyway I can’t stand Duke nor that tiny @ss stadium they play in, but they do sell beer on campus so that made trips there a little more tolerable.
Anyway I can’t stand Duke nor that tiny @ss stadium they play in
THIS!
I appreciate your hatred for dook! I have some friends that attended and yeah- they reek of dookie tude. Now, I don’t like Duke basketball, but lesbehonest… Duke is an outstanding higher-learning institution and Coach K is amazing. if you attended Duke do you think there’s a possibility you’d have the same elitist attitude? I’ve asked myself the same question.
great post sir champ.
i sent away for university of michigan school information when i was 16 because of fab five, so therefore also had an inherent ‘hatred’ for the team based on exactly what you said (the arrogance, not the colour).
i still havent seen the espn documentary (*shakes fist at canada’s sports network), but heard about what jalen said, heard that he reached out to grant via twitter to apologize for what he’s going to hear. i read what grant wrote, and the subsequent fallout from his post (about 60/40 split those saying he missed the point, that this is only how jalen felt at age 18 vs #shotsfired + #dropsmic kudos). my opinion that it was excellently well written and it doesn’t matter if it’s how jalen FELT or how he FEELS. he still said it. i’ve yet to see the jalen response on youtube (why these public apologies/responses though..).
for me, being black growing up in a 98.75% white suburb town, i was just me. sure i never dated, and dudes liked my football knowledge and nike-wearing self (i worked at champs), but i never faced any sort of real racism until i went to school…and it was by my own people.
now i didnt walk, talk, dress or act black enough. i didnt know certain hiphop albums. i had never done the caribana yonge street flex (i’ll explain later). i didnt know about hood things, black people time and always wanting to ask for a link.
i didn’t define that as black, other black people did. and it’s sad.
as i commented on wisdom is misery’s love jones post – there is so much more to black people, but it’s us that supports and perpetuates the stereotypes that (as yesterday’s post clearly stated) others would get a hard side-eye or worse for trying to say.
we need to do better. for us. by us.
*sorry for the long-a$$ post.
Caribana isnt for everybody…beside Labor Day on the Pkwy is the best North American Carnival with Miami Carnival Columbus Day weekend trying to get stronger every year.
Of course go to THE SOURCE of Carnival: TRINIDAD! Then go “play mas” everywhere else (like I did)
Not playing mas in Caribana is not an Uncle Tom thing. Its a “I hate crowds and fukkery” kinda thing LOL
whoa whoa whoa.. hold up *nate dogg voice…
i wont even speak on behalf of myself because i’m biased, but judging from what the visitors say/used to say about caribana… i dunno about your statement.
i believe it’s the biggest in north america (and 3rd in the world behind trinidad’s carnival and jamaica’s reggae fest. not saying bigger automatically = better..but i’m saying bigger is better. lol.
*disclaimer: i have only been to NYC parade and not Miami’s as it’s usually on our thanksgiving weekend. I’m afraid of Trinidad. I need to take baby steps cuz *erykah badu voice: they serious bout their s#*t! lol
but here, a young person’s rite of passage is attending caribana sans parental supervision. esp on the friday night, people too young/cheap for clubs would just hit yonge street. i had no idea what that was all about til i made black friends in university.
May I ask where you grew up KB?
I thought I was the only black Canadian that has never attended Caribana or the side show that is Yonge St…and I live in Toronto!
(I even got married on Caribana weekend, some of my guests were not pleased lol)
@shorty@law
i grew up in york region (aurora, newmarket, king city).
and if you are black and you got married on caribana weekend.. i am NOT surprised!! lol.
where was the wedding?
i still havent seen the espn documentary (*shakes fist at canada’s sports network),
csn is just wack.
it’s tsn. but close enough.
Yeah Grant truly had the best #shotsfired ending line I’ve seen in a long time. It’s like he threw a grenade back into the house right before he closed the door and walked out…lol
As we discussed on twitter yesterday, you can’t blame Hill for defending himself against the names he was called. Perception is always gonna be just that. However, both parties got to speak their peace.
I just filled out my first work bracket ever, which for course means I got Texas over Duke. Gotta go with the hometeam.
“I just filled out my first work bracket ever, which for course means I got Texas over Duke. Gotta go with the hometeam.
”
you know, i was about to write a post about why you need to fill out a bracket, but the rose/hill issue took first priority and sh*t
Understandable.
“Yeah Grant truly had the best #shotsfired ending line I’ve seen in a long time. It’s like he threw a grenade back into the house right before he closed the door and walked out”
He really did have the best parting line. You just gotta sit in the room with the gernade. There’s really no comeback to that.
None!!!!!
give ‘em hell, give ‘em hell, make ‘em eat…you know the rest! Lol
Since I’m a huge basketball fan I figured I’d comment for the first time ever I think. As said above Jalen was wrong for that Uncle Tom statement and even though he said FELT, even I was a bit hurt when he said Uncle Tom so I can imagine how Grant Hill would feel. I’m cool with Grant’s response because like you said, he has likely kept that inside for a while.
About the Duke hate. I never got it. I’m not a fan (I ride with Kansas) either. Well I get disliking what you think the alumni and coach stand for and their whole “aura” but hating the players I don’t get (I don’t get the feeling many commenters here hate players). Their just playing ball and going to school like anybody else.
Last thing, Duke has had plenty of decent NBA players and busts like any other school. Shane Battier, Dahntay Jones, Corey Maggette, Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Josh McRoberts, Mike Dunleavy Jr (just off the top of my head). None of these dudes are washed up yet or busts. Plus, I haven’t seen evidence of them being bad people.
I’ll end this essay with some feel good stuff:
Corey Maggette news – http://journaltimes.com/sports/bucks/article_efc79902-4ebd-11e0-8c1b-001cc4c002e0.html
“Last thing, Duke has had plenty of decent NBA players and busts like any other school. Shane Battier, Dahntay Jones, Corey Maggette, Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Josh McRoberts, Mike Dunleavy Jr (just off the top of my head). None of these dudes are washed up yet or busts. Plus, I haven’t seen evidence of them being bad people. ”
i’d agree. welcome and sh*t, btw
I haven’t read all the comments, so forgive me if I step repeat anything that’s been said.
It’s time for some Panama Confessions and Contradictions.
1. I’m a diehard Duke fan…NOW. But when I was younger, I not only grew up in Michigan, but I used to live in Ann Arbor on State Street. Needless to say, as a young lad I was a Michigan fan thru and thru. Even now, I still root for Michigan. The M-Den at Briarwood Mall is one of my favorite stores ever. Point is, I was a Fab 5 lover like most young Black dudes. I STILL have my maize Chris Webber jersey. The very jersey he told Mitch Albom folks were paying for (yep, $75 ) at the time. I love that jersey. I loved the Fab 5 like they were my big brothers.
2. I hated Christian Laettner too. But I loved Grant Hill. Back in ’92 and ’93, I was all about U of M basketball. I still loves those teams and wish they’d won a championship.
3. The reason I started following Duke is fairly stupid. When everybody was rocking the Starter parkas, my parents copped me a dope Duke Blue Devils one. That coat was so dope I couldn’t help but love the team affixed to it. So I started following both Michigan AND Duke, despite what had just gone down a few years prior. Plus, I wasn’t paying attention THAT tough. Then I started really watching Duke play and saying I liked them. B/c I did. Well folks genuine disgust pushed me further into the Duke camp, apexing by the time I moved to DC and all the UMD folks mistook Duke as an actual rival of theirs. So I more or less became more diehard over time to the point where I am now and have been since the Jay Williams years when you couldn’t tell me sh*t.
Okay, enough with the Panama history lessons. To the post.
I understand where Jalen is coming from (I’d understand Jimmy King too except he’s as inarticulate as Derrick Rose on Jeopardy). And what I took from the GREAT documentary was that it was more personal. Sure they all hated Duke but he was jealous and personally envious of Grant Hill b/c they SHOULD have had the same upbringing. It’s like they were parallel universe success/fail versions of one another. He said that he thought Grant Hill was a p*ssy and a b*tch. Said he felt the same about Christian Laettner…until he stepped on the court with him and realized that he could play.
Their beef with Duke is a misguided one to me and I realized that everybody hates Duke for the same (perceived) reasons…face it, most of us have never even been there and just assume the hate b/c everybody else does. Of course folks in the area know firsthand how obnoxious Duke fans can be. But UMD fans are just as bad. Or Miami. Or hell most people with passionate fan bases. The beef over recruiting is retarded. Duke, much like Michigan, can recruit who they want. And its not like they’re recruiting crappy players. They’re recruiting people who they feel will uphold the schoo’s rep…hate it or love it. They should be lambasted b/c of that? Their house, their rules. It would be one thing if they were recruiting nothing but wack players but they’re not. These same cats everybody is hating on were playing in the McDonald’s All-American games with the the folks we claim to respect for keeping it real…whatever that means.
I also think its retarded to call somebody an Uncle Tom for wanting to go to a school and play ball at a school with a tradition for academics AND a championship caliber program. Jay Williams (hated by all…except me, I have a Jay Williams Bulls jersey…lol) was smart but dude could ball. Like for real. He murdered ninjas…ANYBODY…on the court. He was just that good. Why is he being penalized because Coach K saw a smart kid who could ball too?
I get why Jalen felt that way. I understand why folks hate Duke, but he really sounds just bitter. Or sounded anyway. That was years ago (but I’ll get to the present in a second). He felt slighted as if Coach K had an obligation to look at him but wouldn’t even think to do so. And that’s dumb. I can’t fault any of these coaches for not being the one to take a chance on somebody like the ENTIRE Calipari program kids. Sure they make for great television and thats great, but if there’s any question upfront about their character, I wouldnt want that associated with my program either. Again, their house, their rules.
Which brings us to today and Jalen’s recent comments which prompted Grant’s unnecessariily long retort. Jalen kept saying that’s how I felt then. He has yet to say, “that’s not how I feel now.” Skip Bayless asked him and he refused to say if he still felt that way or not. His prerogative. He’s entitled to his opinion, but I do think its unfortunate that so many of us look at these kids (cuz that’s what they are) who didn’t do much else but be born into good situation and choose to go to play ball at a school with a known record of winning, because that’s why every ball player goes to certain schools. Hating Duke. I get that…but those kids ain’t Uncle Toms for being born. Plus, it aint like they got fully embraced. I remember reading somewhere that Elton Brand got chided for leaving early and not embracing the Duke experience and he lobbed off a general f*ck you to the person who wrote and said you can have Duke, basically. These cats are still men with pride.
BTW, for folks thinking Grant could have called Jalen…Jalen could have called Grant to tell him he was about to throw him under the bus. But he didn’t. He texted him and just said, “sorry.” And Grant had no idea what he was talking about until he watched the special. It cuts both ways. And I love Jalen Rose. I’d watch a whole documentary on him specifically.
Anyway…Duke FTW.
And that’s all I’ll say about that.
The Elton Brand email which I saw on Twitter yesterday: http://www.aseaofblue.com/2007/6/7/102426/5876
@Panama Jackson
“I hated Christian Laettner too. But I loved Grant Hill. Back in ’92 and ’93, I was all about U of M basketball. I still loves those teams and wish they’d won a championship.”
Same here. I’ve always been a Grant Hill fan. I didn’t care for Tyrone Hill, Hurley, and the rest of them but Grant Hill was always one of my favorite college players. I was excited when he came to the Pistons.
ya know…Bobby hurley was a baller though. I always felt bad taht he was in the accident b/c dude could legitimately ball out of this world. I think thats what gets lost in all the Duke hate. Like him or not, Christian Laettner could ball. Sure he was a douche and he definitely stepped on whats his face from Kentucky’s leg and what not. so yeah…he’s a jacka**, but dude could ball. Like most of the players that go to Duke. These aint “good kids” who can’t play.
“These cats are still men with pride.”
And there you have it.
“BTW, for folks thinking Grant could have called Jalen…Jalen could have called Grant to tell him he was about to throw him under the bus. But he didn’t. He texted him and just said, “sorry.” And Grant had no idea what he was talking about until he watched the special. It cuts both ways. And I love Jalen Rose. I’d watch a whole documentary on him specifically.”
i agree.
basically. lol
Their house, their rules.
This doesn’t get said enough.
I’m with you on all of this.
“(I’d understand Jimmy King too except he’s as inarticulate as Derrick Rose on Jeopardy).”
I just worked my abs laughing @ this, LOLOLOL!!!
Damn, I wish I’d thought of this earlier: Champ, let us see your NCAA bracket. Preferably before the games start in a few hours.
we definitely missed the boat this year. we should have created a vsb bracket challenge.
anyway, i like ohio state, i want pitt to win, i think UNC is a sleeper pick, and, if Irving comes back and is 100 percent, I wouldnt be surprised if Duke took it
I will NEVA….eva like Duke. I still can’t watch clips from those 2 (91-92) games.
I like grant, but I’m with JRose on this one.
Being labeled an uncle tom won’t hold you back in the world…but being labeled a thug definitely will.
“Being labeled an uncle tom won’t hold you back in the world…but being labeled a thug definitely will.”
huh?
Peace,
I’ll just repeat what I posted on the FB page:
Wise Naim Quite frankly, Hill was out of line, out of touch and way out of bounds. The fact he wrote that lengthy ass diatribe to the (self-admitted) former thoughts of a pair of teenagers barely men makes Hill look more milquetoast than he could ever imagine.
Wise Naim In other words, Grant Hill is a bamma like sh*t, young.
Peace,
Wise
@Wise Math
“The fact he wrote that lengthy ass diatribe to the (self-admitted) former thoughts of a pair of teenagers barely men makes Hill look more milquetoast than he could ever imagine.”
That’s the issue I have with Grant Hill’s response. Grant Hill has every right to say what he said and feel the way he does. But i think it was lame that he responded to the thoughts of a 18 year old Jalen Rose that at the time was a kid from the hood.
To Humble One,
It was just EXTREMELY unnecessary. All of this grandstanding and d*ck-measuring could have taken place behind closed doors. They’re peers. They’re in the same business. I’m SURE they can find each other. Hash it out like men. Don’t be a soft ass pansy and write a goddamn exit thesis over THE THOUGHTS OF A KID FROM THE HOOD WHO DIDN’T AND PROBABLY STILL DOESN’T KNOW BETTER.
You can make sh*t like this a teachable moment. Instead, Hill had to puff his suburban BUT I AM STILL BLACK chest out so he didn’t look like Jalen Rose and Jimmy King got the upper hand.
Stupid.
***repeating what I posted on the FB page***
True, he didn’t need to respond, but he was obviously hurt by it. Like I mentioned in the entry, this is something that was probably festering for years, and I can’t blame the man for getting it off his chest.
Plus, just because someone is privileged doesn’t mean they don’t feel pain
Champ..I definitely agree (and concede).
Being a poor, disadvantaged, black stigmatized and still stigmatizes kids like Jalen Rose was. Being a middle to upper class, advantaged black stigmatizes kids like Grant Hill… in some sects of the black community. This isn’t news. Jalen Rose just expressed how he, and a lot of other blacks probably felt at the time. Actually, Jalen Rose has been on ESPN as early as 3 years ago saying the same thing about how he felt about Duke/Hill. He has reconciled with those feelings and grown up. Also, since then, Jalen Rose has went on to earn his degree, have a somewhat successful NBA career, and become a TV analyst who owns his own businesses. He even has a charter school in Detroit. So let’s not act like this was Ron Artest making these comments. Jalen has credentials. It was a documentary about PAST events that took place when these guys were teenagers.
What I have a problem with is the mass co-signage of Grant Hill’s comments, particulary from the 2520 community. All was silent until Grant Hill responded. Now people are coming out the wood works to co-sign Grant Hill and put down Jalen Rose. Personally, I feel Grant Hill was right in defending himself, but wrong in his approach.
Personally, I feel Grant Hill was right in defending himself, but wrong in his approach.
how do you think he should have approached him?
I can relate to this. Grant Hill was obviously hurt. Clearly this isn’t the first time his “blackness” was questioned. I know exactly how he feels. I know why we do this to each other and I hate it. I have to downplay everything about my life with certain Black people so they don’t get jealous or think that I THINK I’m better. I’m aware of where it comes from but when are we going to change this? If it’s not clear by now that there are MANY types of Blacks in this country, well some of us are just plain retarded. Just because some of us didn’t walk the path of struggle like others did, doesn’t mean we don’t know we’re black, know what if feels like to be black, or can’t relate to other Blacks. No matter how you were raised, we are ALL reminded at some point of who we are in this country…and we ALL pay the same black tax. I made a comment on twitter a few weeks ago about my housekeeper. Now, granted she comes once a MONTH to do deep cleaning. I budget this expense into my finances because I’m a working, single mother and my house is alot to maintain. It doesn’t matter my reasoning, all they read was housekeeper and I got a slew of comments/jokes made. What if I said I spent $200 on shoes, would they have cared? What if I said I dropped $200 on a bottle of liquor in VIP? One tweetheart in particulary said that was very “2520 of me”. Really? Okay. I guess I’m not Black then. Even in life, there’s pictures of me on horses in my house…”oh you rode horses as a kid?…that’s WHITE.” “Oh you had a pool?…that’s WHITE.” It’s to the point where I just say nothing about my childhood unless asked. If I don’t know a certain movie, certain rap song, etc…I aint Black. I talk like a “white girl”. Oh, and I’ve never seen a food stamp, Tammi….never seen one, you wanna fight me?. LAWD.
Oh the flip side, Grant sounded a little too defensive. I don’t know the full story but I’m not sure how having 2 parents means you’re an Uncle Tom. That read more like a dig to inner city Blacks if you ask me. Not all Blacks have one parent, many work hard, have jobs, etc. I read some of what he wrote as the same type of generalization he clearly didn’t like done to him.
Your comment reminded me of an incident a few years ago. I was at a community event volunteering and went out for drinks with some of the folks. I had on a pair of Prada shoes and happened to take one off b/c it felt like something was in it.
Anyway, one of the community organizer guys I was with saw the label and had the nerve to ask me how I could be ‘down for the people’ if I was wearing designer shoes.
What?! I pointed out to him that I just left the same meeting he did and volunteered just as he did. Then I asked what my shoes had to do with it. Ignorant. He also told me I couldn’t have natural hair and wear nice shoes. I ended cussing him out. LOL.
I just had to share.
And…I just hired a housekeeper for once a month deep cleaning. And I don’t have kids. And I live in a 2 BDR condo. Judge me.
I was seriously considering a using a maid service. Now I don’t feel like a jerk about it. Thanks for sharing guys.
I look at it this way: you are giving someone a job in a bad economy, you are freeing up your time to do things you enjoy and, if it is your goal, you can save money in other ways to offset the not that expensive cost of the cleaning service.
It amazes me that people would judge how folks spend their money. It’s not like we’re buying crack. Geesh. We’re paying to get them baseboards clean!
HA! Thank you V.E.G….you have a habit of saying what I’m thinking. I don’t like dust bunnies behind my furniture! There’s nothing wrong with it. AND I’m giving her a job in this economy…and she is GOOD. Everytime she comes, I’m happy like Christmas morning. I’m even thinking about hiring her to be a nanny for my daughter after school instead of paying ridiculous amounts of money to the day care. Anyway, we work hard so we deserve to spend our money how we see fit.
Btw, rock them Pradas girl. Women out here love judging me on my wardrobe. It’s just jealousy cause they’ll go out and buy knock offs. lol
SFG..could you send that maid to BK…my living room is lookin kinda nervous…LOL
<–has been called snooty
<–calls self "snooty Black girl from the PJ's with her flat butt on her shoulders"
(in the words of RuPaul) AND WHAT???
LOL
SFG I don’t know how we would EVA be friends!! You not hood ‘enuff fo me. You got light skin. You from the islands. You tasted bottled water and not tap. I don’t know how we’s gon make it *SMH*
Ok ok ok so I’ma stop being ridiculous and just let you know that its weird how people judge you off what “luxuries” you were afforded and what comforts you provide for yourself. I’ve never been in your particular situation, but I can attest to people thinking and feeling that I think I’m better than them because of my blessings. I tell those people, like my mama told me, if you can tell me how and what I’m thinking and feeling then we need to be getting this money cause that right there is a muthafuggin GIFT!
But really I would never downplay my blessings or what I obtain to make MY life comfortable or what MY parents did for me to be who I am. As you said there are so many different types of black people and if one or more can’t get with that idea then F*ck Em (another gem from my mama)
Girl you know we kin folk! Exactly. Physical things don’t represent me. If you meet me and vibe with me, we’re cool…no matter where you come from. I hate uppity stiff people just like I hate bammas. lol I like people who are down to earth and know how to let their hair down and be real…THAT’s what I will judge people on. I could care less how much your shoes cost or where you live. It doesn’t define how nice/bad we really are. I’ve met rich @ssholes like I’ve met poor @ssholes. An @sshole is an @sshole. lol
Girl, you have always been cool and open. Continue to do you. Yay for getting your housekeeper. I have close friends who are mothers who have gotten one and they swear by it. I have close friends who are single and have gotten one and they swear by it.
Things get thick (busy work season, school, working out more frequently), and real talk I want to call one out too!
Thanks fam. You know what’s funny. In the Islands, latin America most families have a nanny/maid. They’re real cheap and a part of life. Only the exremely impoverished don’t have house help. You can fly them up here and er’thang…just sponsor them.
I’m a working, single mother and my house is alot to maintain.
Shoot, I am not a mother and my house is not even that big and I have a housekeeper! And I will be damned if someone talks to me crazy because I choose to spend my money the way I want to spend it… I mean, are people serious?
If I can afford to have a housekeeper while I devote the time to a more productive endeavor (this empire ain’t going to build itself), it’s my prerogative… and I’m waiting for the first person to tell me something.
My sentiments exactly!
We are >><< here.
Bam! I love how you said “this empire ain’t going to build itself.” Exactly!
I think folks are waaaay too up in arms about Jalen Rose’s comments.
He was reflecting on thoughts he had when he was a teenager.
We all thought dumb ish when we were kids.
I also question Grant Hill’s (LOVED that guy when he was at Duke, so disappointed in his pro career) need to respond to the comments. I mean, if he could have gone back in time and read his letter to young Jalen, that would have been fine. I guess. But to speak on something we are not even sure the almost 40 Jalen is still feeling is kinda crazy.
But, I agree with Champ: Grant has probably been called a ‘sell out’ his entire life or deemed ‘not black enough’ and had to get some ish off his chest. Relax. Relate. Release.
I also think Grant Hill is a bit of a hypocrite. I remember years ago, when he was new to the NBA that he said, in an interview, he sometimes didn’t ‘feel’ black b/c he didn’t grow up poor. HE SAID THAT! So, on some level, he realizes his experience (and Champ’s and mine and a lot of y’alls) – two parent household, college educated parents – is not the norm in the black community.
Lastly: y’all are all some hypocrites for getting on Jalen Rose for using the term ‘Uncle Tom’. Sure, we may not use that term specifically but I do remember several times here on VSB where we all wasted away a work day defining all kind of ish that would make one lose their ‘black card’. In essence, we were, ahem, defining ‘blackness’. You can say you were joking but know this: a lot of truth is spoken in jest.
Wait a min….
He said what???
“he sometimes didn’t ‘feel’ black b/c he didn’t grow up poor.”
Now THAT is insulting. So Black = poor? So it’s okay for him to say it but not Jalen? Yeah that’s a bit hypocritical to me as well.
I wish I could find it on YouTube. But I don’t know WHAT he was on.
I remember he said it – and it WAS years ago – b/c I stopped in my tracks when I heard it. My mouth may have even dropped open.
I also think Grant Hill is a bit of a hypocrite. I remember years ago, when he was new to the NBA that he said, in an interview, he sometimes didn’t ‘feel’ black b/c he didn’t grow up poor. HE SAID THAT! So, on some level, he realizes his experience (and Champ’s and mine and a lot of y’alls) – two parent household, college educated parents – is not the norm in the black community
i don’t think this makes him a hypocrite, though, it just shows that he’s a bit self-conscious about his upbringing, as many blacks from affluent means are
Sure, we may not use that term specifically but I do remember several times here on VSB where we all wasted away a work day defining all kind of ish that would make one lose their ‘black card’ .
Im witcha. Like I said uptread, we all have thoughts/effed up ways of thinking that we may or may not say outloud…..just depends on who we’re around. LOL
But can you really blame Grant Hill for feeling as if he weren’t “Black” enough? When you grow up a certain way or talk a certain way those that had the opposite of what you had or talk differently are going to put certain ideas in your head. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told I act and talk “White.” Then when you think about how it seems that the majority of top Black college athletes come from single parent homes (which are usually associated with low income) then yeah he’s gonna be treated differently by the other guys and told he’s not “Black” enough when they get around him and speak on their struggles. Then you know his White friends were probably saying the same exact thing (“Oh Grant, you’re not Black.”) so yeah he’s gonna start to question how “Black” he really is.
Then Grant Hill’s issue was not with Jalen Rose personally but the mindset of a whole subset of the black community.
Yes, Rose made some direct comments about Hill in the documentary when talking about his past feelings.
Hill’s letter was clearly targeted toward a whole bunch of people he’s interacted with over the course of his 38 years, yet he felt the need to really hammer in on Jalen. I see how the documentary could have triggered something in him but, had he stopped to think about where those feelings were really coming from, he could have written a much better letter and had a teaching moment instead of a venting one.
I must say, a standing ovation is definitely warranted with this post. Very well written and definitely raises some questions.
thanks and sh*t
Thanks for posting about this Panama (see yesterday’s request). I think this whole scenario boils down to a microcosm of black America. I hate Duke as many others do (I’m a UNC fan) but the moment I heard Jalen say “Uncle Tom” I knew this story would continue.
It pits two ends of our experience against each other the Cosby Show vs. The Wire. Not that the Cosby’s could be all that innocent and not that everyone on The Wire was a criminal (most of them were). But these two extremes in most instances are at odds and Jalen put that in front of all America to see….again.
While he says that’s how he felt and he said that they told the Duke players this when they played. He’s smart enough to know how this would play out (more eyes on the reruns and more people talking about it = more money in his pocket and potential for future production projects, he was one of the producers. If Grant’s perception is that Jalen is using incendiary language to hype this documentary then I think Grant Hill should have laid out the verbal smackdown. With that in mind I thought his response was witty, well timed, and to the point (it was long But I think this one paragraph was something everybody in this situation or watching can learn from:
“I caution my fabulous five friends to avoid stereotyping me and others they do not know in much the same way so many people stereotyped them back then for their appearance and swagger.”
Point blank: don’t judge me and I won’t judge you. And keep my name out you mouf *****
Point blank: don’t judge me and I won’t judge you. And keep my name out you mouf *****
Exactly.
“My namesake, Henry Hill, my father’s father, was a day laborer in Baltimore. He could not read or write until he was taught to do so by my grandmother.”
It’s amazing how times have changed and yet, how things remain the same. Now-a-days it seems that you’d be hard pressed to find an educated black woman who would meet a guy who can’t read and would “husband” him and nurture him by teaching him to read. A guy like this now would more likely get the stink face. Seemingly, however, black women tending to be more educated than black men is nothing new. While this one situation does not in and of itself indicate a widespread phenomenon at that time, it does make me ponder.
I don’t know Cab. Times haven’t changed that much. Women love a “project.”
Right!
I was thinking “somebody would teach him how to read”.
If a functionally illiterate man meets a woman at the right age – age is key – and courts her, he could get her.
Sad but true.
My bad Champ. This is your post. You all look alike:-) I kid I kid…..;-)
no problem and sh*t. at least you didn’t imply that panama and i were married
I am from Chicago and Duke is responsible for ruining the BBall games of some of the ballers from my City, Corey Maggette who was smart for leaving school early and Sean Dockery.
Sean dockery played 4 years never got the shine he should have and never made the NBA. please youtube him when he was in highschool
Is their a reason why the best ballers career wise do better leaving Duke early?
Duke is Americas team. like the Chicago Cubs, last year they had the most cup cake bracket
‘F Duke as a Record Label,.Company and Crew, and if you are down with Duke, F you Too’ (Tupac Voice )
*correction* insert ‘there’ where i put ‘their’ i know how my educated kinfolk will call me out for the wrong use of the words there and their
one of my favorite pics of Tupac is of him rockign a Duke jersey. lol
“Is their a reason why the best ballers career wise do better leaving Duke early?”
the best ballers — the ones who left early — have fared better BECAUSE they were better, not because they left early.
btw, sean dockery just never was that good to me. even when i saw him in high school, i remember questioning why he was so highly touted
Champ. John Schyer would have been a pro if he had went to any other school besides Duke. Lets see how well this new PG recruit they get fare at Duke and then i will say Duke doesnt ruin PGs
Hey Champ,
Irving is great, but there’s no way he’s better than Baron Davis at 18. Davis was the truth. He had all-time great potential. He could handle the rock, get to basket at will and jump out the gym. He could have and should have gone straight to the League out of high school. His was a human highlight reel his two years at UCLA.
-Jamel
i played against baron at an AAU tournament. he was definitely a walking highlight film then, but he was still extremely raw and occasionally out of control
Nice article. I don’t think Jalen Rose knew how to express what he felt in proper terms and just went with Uncle Tom. I believe its a hatred/jealousy/etc between classes. Historically there has always been a rift between from poor and upper/middle class families, even during Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement. Thats what this is about.
“I don’t think Jalen Rose knew how to express what he felt in proper terms and just went with Uncle Tom.”
although i dont completely agree with this, i wouldnt be surprised if it were true
I went to Duke, but I am on Jalen’s side here. Grant’s letter was just stupid. I feel like Grant basically made Jalen’s point for him. He also focused on being from a two-parent household, but you can have two parents and be from the hood. You can also be from a single parent household and not be in the inner city. Grant was very defensive like he was tired of having his blackness questioned. However, he is a grown 38 year old man who doesn’t need to write a ridiculous response to something Jalen felt 20 years ago. Maybe uncle tom wasn’t the correct term to use, but Duke does recruit a certain type of black player. The black players at Duke are not from inner cities; they are honor roll students from more affluent backgrounds and private schools. I think Dockery was the first player Duke really recruited who didn’t fit that mold. I’ve always liked Grant Hill and Tamia, but his response definitely changed my opinion.
“…The black players at Duke are not from inner cities; they are honor roll students from more affluent backgrounds and private schools…”
A.K.A. The Safe Negro…
Grant was very defensive like he was tired of having his blackness questioned.
and you wouldn’t be?
The black players at Duke are not from inner cities; they are honor roll students from more affluent backgrounds and private schools.
My question to everybody who mentioned this is: and why exactly is that a problem again?
Champ. John Schyer would have been a pro if he had went to any other school besides Duke. Lets see how well this new PG recruit they get fare at Duke and then i will say Duke doesnt ruin PGs
Also Duke recruiting the safe athlete is cool, but i think College sports exploit these athletes. Coach K knows he has to appease the big money donors and community at Durham.
The better question is why does Coack K gets upset that his players leave early to make a living when he is already making millions from unpaid labor
I know this much if i have a son who is gifted in sports, I will tell him to leave school early and take the money.
Also these guys play ball to try to make the NBA point blank period. Dockery could have gotten a degree easily with just being from a low income area in Chicago, especially with the state funding in Illinois in 2002.
I enjoyed the documentary, I enjoyed reading Hill’s response. Did Hill probably overreact? Yeah. This was the feeling of young men 20 years ago and not the thought processes of the now grown men. But anyone that grew up in a Black neighborhood knows that when someone calls you a b*tch on the corner in front of your friends (in this case for Grant Hill 10 or so million viewers) then you can’t very well stand there and take that kind of talk. Hell, they called dude a “b*tch”, and Uncle Tom, and a “p*ssy” within 2 minutes of one another on ESPN with everyone watching. For Hill, he had to respond even though it wasn’t wholly necessary.
Hell, they called dude a “b*tch”, and Uncle Tom, and a “p*ssy” within 2 minutes of one another on ESPN with everyone watching. For Hill, he had to respond even though it wasn’t wholly necessary
yeah, i think people arent realizing that, whether it was an expression of past feelings or not, millions of people watched him be called a bitch on primetime TV. do you know how many emails and texts he probably received after that? he had no choice but to respond
I see your point. If someone made accusations about me, I’d respond too. It’s hard for me to walk away from bullsh*t. I address er’thang.
“he had no choice but to respond”
That’s a cop out. Grant HIll is a grown a$$ man. He had a choice. He could have shook that off.
Nobody can walk away. This is how fights break out…folks always have to get a word in; next thing you know punches are being thrown. LOL.
Agreed. Heck, Lou from up the street can say something about you right now and it could come back to you and some of us would feel a certain way and even confront that fool and tell him to “keep my name out yo’ mouth”. I kid. But truthfully, I can’t hate on Grant addressing what was said about him in front of millions.
Being that I come from a family where there are more bougie, siddity Uncle Toms and Aunt Tomasinas, I think I have a sensitive Uncle Tom-radar implanted inside of my brain. With that being said, I thought Jalen Rose’s usage of the term was done improperly, but I did understand where he was coming from.
your usage of usage was proper, too
tee-hee
Soooo….I shouldn’t work hard to ensure my children are raised in a SAFE neighborhood with quality schools because if I do and they succeed they will just be looked upon as “Uncle Toms”?
I have never in my life understood this….this….this point of view in the Black/AA community. WHATDAH3LL
I just don’t understand it.
“I have never in my life understood this….this….this point of view in the Black/AA community. WHATDAH3LL”
As neither do I. I simply chop it up to the ‘crab mentality’.
However, it is important to note, that it is only a particular segment of the Black/AA community that is afflicted with this defeatist attitude.
With that written, unfortunately, as it stands (and as history will reveal), it would appear that they are the ones serving as the living diecast models for defining the mainstream accepted ideology of ‘blackness’, as they blindly and perpetually aspire – much to their own detriment- to always ‘keep it real’. Anyone that does not fit into this narrow and ridiculous concept of ‘blackness’ is deemed uppity, a sell out, someone who thinks they are better than others, or simply, an ‘Uncle Tom’. Particuarly if one did not grow up poor, does not exhibit any ‘hood’/'ghetto’ qualities and does not sympathize and/or empathize with the self perpetuated plight of n*ggerdom.
Remember, the more ignorant, contankerous, unconscionable and self destructive you are, the more you are ‘keeping it real’. Ergo, the ‘blacker’ you are.
It is this simple difference in attitude that is the most defining. It is that which seperates the black people from the n*ggaz.
Cosign.
Yes. We are here >>>> <<<<.
Peace,
I kind of went into it on the FB page but here goes. I grew up in southern PG county in Marlow Heights, MD. I lived between there and SE DC, both crappy hoods although the Heights were slightly better. I had a few classmates who lived in tony areas like Ft. Washington, Acoceek, and even Temple Hills. Black people at that…with 2-parent households and nice cars and all of that.
My brother and I grew up poor. Sure, we were smart and could blend but we were clearly not them. I mean we ate Murry’s Steaks products daily because my mother didn’t know how to cook. We resented the well-off black folks from up the way. I mean seriously, we used to call those suburban dudes and girls bammas…and they really weren’t but they were so foreign, so polished…they had these refined lives and we lived in hell comparatively.
For me, Hill’s response is him sticking out his suburban “I AM BLACK TOO” chest. Nobody denies that. What’s true is that down in Reston where Hill grew up, it ain’t no “theral” black dudes out there unless they out there getting at a girl or selling drugs or chance. They’re not just LIVING out there. Sh*t, Reston (where my dad lives) STILL makes me feel like I don’t belong and I’m an old man now.
I’m not even all that hood to be honest but I was definitely raised with an edge and a tough judgment of others as a result of the poverty we were stricken with. It took me getting to college and seeing the world and realizing we all matter in the greater scheme, Hell, my best friend growing up was Norwegian but he lived in OUR HOOD and he was POOR like us although they ended up moving to Burb ass Clinton — another haven of well-to-do Blacks.
I dunno…Hill didn’t have to go ham. He could have called Jalen. But you know how burb bammas be…they gotta prove that they tough too. Posturing…that’s all it is.
Is that supposed to be thorough??? LOL and yes alot of those kind tend to always feel they have something to prove even the brawds SMH.
I have had conversations around that type even being a lil mo dangerous, because of the need they feel to prove something. Which of course is false and very ignorant, alot folks have gotten caught up because of this.
Peace Orange Star,
Yes…theral is how a lot of people from the DC area say thorough.
Also, that whole “tough guy from the burbs” thing happened OFTEN out my way. Dudes from Clinton or Waldorf or all those little smaller burbs would come our way beefing (over drugs or a girl or both).
I used to say back then “there’s not a more dangerous person than a punk ass n*gga with a gun”
Exactly, I’m a native young
. LOL
Folks just need to BE themselves, and stay in their lane, errybody ain’t built for errything.
DC stand up! Does anyone know when it became the DMV? First time I heard it on the radio, I really thought they were talking about motor vehicles.
I abhor that term, it hasn’t become that.
The District is still just that.
Me too! @Curious Capital.
Concur. I have no idea whose idea that was, but it was very bad.
DC is DC.
That is all.
@WiseMath & OSHH: Ya’ll two cant be serious with this thread right?
That bs exists, maybe not where you are from but that’s a real occurence.
Fake overzealous mf’ers with something to prove “ain’t hard to tell”.
“Fake overzealous mf’ers with something to prove “ain’t hard to tell”.”
Yeah. Exactly. Plenty of that in the hoods and ghettos across america, hence the high mortality and incarceration rates amongst those individuals. Punk @ss ninjas with guns indeed.
Its interesting how you chastize the suburbanites for such behavior, while giving credence to the inner city youth as if they are the ‘Real McCoy” so to say. When you look deeper into it, they are just as fraudulent and posturing as anyone from a more affluent community attempting to embrace such stereotypically ‘black’ attitudes and behavior.
I don’t think you are aware, but yours and Wise’s comments above perpetuate the same mindset that spawned todays article.
I didn’t make some grand statement, that everybody from the city or surbubs is such and such, cause I know better, neither did Wise but we did speak on an occurence that we have witnessed,
Fact of the matter is, everything isn’t for everybody, regardless of where you are from, was the main point and that is not perpetuating anything but truth.
Co-sign to the nth degree. We mythologize poverty as a great character builder. But in reality, there are just as many b$tch-made broke ninjas in areas we consider the hood as anywhere else.
Then I think it would be wise that you reread what both you and Wise wrote, paying particularly close attention to the connotation and implications silver lining your sentiments.
I am not arguing your observations, as you are certainly perpetuating the truth of the concept of ‘blackness’.
No where did I address “blackness” either,
hit dogs also holla in my experience.
Well your experience misguided you this time OSHH, as I sit here stoic and unbruised.
LOL, I still say no one said alla dat, or even implied it.
We know fronting exists, in all tax brackets.
But you did say it my Happy Hunting Orange Star. You are simply unaware of the power of what you stated and implied. And Mr. WiseMath’s entire post consisted of the worst of it all. All of which you cosigned.
Dangerous minds. Where is Michele Pfeiffer when we need her.
I had a long response and I had to stop. Thanks for saying what I wanted Mr. Sobo…
Are people serious????
Peace. I was serious. I don’t know or really even regard all that bobby brown bullsh*t the good brother Mr. Boho or Sobe Tea or whatever was saying.
I’m not about to write a goddamn exist thesis about what i said. It was plain and written by and for a person/people who could relate.
I know some “harder” burb dudes…but my experience was my own. Ya’ll can take the rest of that blahzay the hell on.
And while Rose and King obviously were speaking about their past feelings, I don’t think either of them really stressed how wrong they were to feel that way, and that was very disappointing.
this sums up all of my feelings about this whole situation and what took me about 20 tweets to express. on top of the fact i believe in everyone’s write to express themselves — be it the Fab 5′s doc commentary, Grant Hill’s editorial, or Champ’s blogging.
well written, Champ. kudos. *tips hat*
tip deez
seriously, though, thanks and sh*t
I can’t. I die a slow death every time you say deez. lmao.
uh huh, i see how you had to edit this response to give thanks. *smh* rude
I always hated Duke partly because of the perception Jalen expressed, LOL and partly because I was a Tar Heel’s supporter(Jordan) back in the day when I did watch college hoops.
All the “ism’s” that people buy into are pretty much a way for people to look down on other people, in the end what really matters is the way you treat other human beings and how you affect those lives.
“I always hated Duke partly because of the perception Jalen expressed, LOL and partly because I was a Tar Heel’s supporter(Jordan) back in the day when I did watch college hoops.”
damn, lol. you’ve been an MJ fan for a while, huh?
Since I was a young girl bout the age of 14.
I was too young to care about his actual playing days @ Chapel Hill, but when I learned that was his Alma, of course I hated Duke from that point forward.
“Whew. There’s a lot to digest here. Race, racial identity, how racial identity affects how we see the world, and whether there’s a “right” way to be black seem to be questions we’ll never fully answer, baggage we’ll always carry.”
The greatest trick Willie Lynch ever pulled was turning the slaves against each other. I don’t know if we will ever move on from disunity. Aside from black on black crime, the next thing I am tired of is blacks resorting to racial slurs to hurt each other. There aren’t enough books, enough February’s, enough State of Black America’s to heal this wedge. We’ll be studying it until the day we die.
The greatest trick ever played on black folk was getting them to believe the Willie Lynch letter was real.
I’m sorry…my comment is snarky, I know. But this is a pet peeve of mine. There is no historical documentation to validate “Willie Lynch” or the “Willie Lynch letters”. For all I know Willie is real and he did make that speech. But I have to go on what I know until show differently.
I agree. I’d bet my piece of sh*t history degree on Lynch not being real. If Henry Laurens or Ben Tillman would have said this I would be all in.
Willie Lynch might not be “real” but the sentiment of the letter seems real to an outside observer like myself… So while historically there may not be a Willie Lynch, there probably were a bunch of old Southern White owners thinking like Willie Lynch.
Agreed. But folks constantly refer to Willie Lynch as if they can prove he was real. To make sure you’re not standing on the wrong side of history, it’s best to just say ‘Massuh”.
Doesn’t Willie Lynch sound like a code name?
The notions put forth in that letter are real as hell and the ripples from those notions are still killing us.
Champ I was very curious for your response being the basketball fan you are. I love this post.
thanks and sh8t. i love it too
Didn’t know Penn Hills was the suburbs :-p
That’s like calling Wilkinsburg or Duquesne the suburbs
lol, is this a shotsfired?
Haha I kid, I kid..
Well its funny how the “suburbs” of Pitt run the gamut.. On one end you’ve got your super upper class areas like Mt. Lebanon and Wexford and waaay on the other end you have Braddock and McKeesport
Underachieving Negroes often hate on successful Black people for doing what the unsuccessful Negro was not willing to do. Their insecurities need target to attack.
Thats when you see, any successful black man that has used his mind to achieve success is branded as, an uncle tom, not black enough, a sell out, weak and /or, often these days, gay.
While their seems to exist this fascination with keeping it real or hood.
Grow Up! If by now you don’t understand that education often precedes success and that hard work often yields positive results, then you are simply looking for an excuse to justify your laziness or your lack of will to do better.
Hating is easy because you can do that from your couch on your $500 a month apartment, watching Meet The Browns, and its cosigned by your equally unimpressive friends.
Often success is a result of those who simply wanted it more than you.
and before the non-readers attempt to reply about generalizations, reread the post for words such as “often and seems”
I don’t know if you’re serious or if you were just trying to take the pi$$ out of everyone.
If you’re serious, I think you should step lightly: it’s just as dangerous to put folks down for what they don’t have or can’t get as it is to chide them for their successes.
And before you say you weren’t putting anyone down: ‘underachieving negroes vs. successful blacks’. Your words.
You also equate success with having fancy stuff, otherwise you would not have mentioned the ‘$500 apartment’.
I get that you were simply trying to paint a picture but it’s an ugly one. You could have made your point, a valid one, without (seemingly) looking down your nose.
@V.E.G – “And before you say you weren’t putting anyone down: ‘underachieving negroes vs. successful blacks’. Your words.”
I am curious to know what it is exactly about this statement above that your find off putting or condescending.
Keeping it within proper context, I have pasted his entire sentence below, I personally don’t see the harm in it at all. What exactly is dangerous and demeaning about this one statement?
“Underachieving Negroes often hate on successful Black people for doing what the unsuccessful Negro was not willing to do. Their insecurities need target to attack.”
Perhaps, if I slightly edited the sentence in two different ways, I can make my point.
Edit 1. “Underachieving Black people often hate on successful Black people for doing what the unsuccessful Negro was not willing to do. Their insecurities need target to attack.”
Edit 2. “Underachieving Negroes often hate on successful Negroes for doing what the unsuccessful Negro was not willing to do. Their insecurities need target to attack.”
In the original sentence, the poster felt the need to label the ‘underachievers’ as ‘negroes’ and the ‘successful’ folks as ‘black’. While the term ‘negro’ was widely used to label blacks in the past, it is now considered offensive. Of course, the terms negro, ninja and ni**a are now used, amongst black folk, as a term of endearment. However, it doesn’t read that way in the original sentence b/c the writer felt the need to further divide the two groups, as if ‘underachiever’ and ‘successful’ wasn’t enough separation.
In Edit 1, both groups are referred to as ‘black’: the point is still made and is, to me, far less off-putting.
In Edit 2, both groups are referred to as ‘negro’. The term is still controversial but, b/c both groups are referenced in the same way, a reader can assume the writer is using the term in an endearing way and is not intentionally trying to put down less successful, i.e. lower class, African-Americans.
I missed replacing a ‘negro’ in my first edit.
You don’t think you’re splitting hairs?
But I do see what you are saying now. It appears the differentiation was deliberate. Perhaps he didnt want to say n*ggas, and substituted it with negro instead purely to emphasize the difference between the two extremes within the race. Thats my interpretation. But of course, Yalegent will have to explain what he meant.
I may be splitting hairs.
I admit that. I haven’t eaten yet today so I’m uber sensitive. Sue me.
In the original sentence, the poster felt the need to label the ‘underachievers’ as ‘negroes’ and the ‘successful’ folks as ‘black’ .
I noticed this immediately. And frowned my face up.
Glad I’m not the only one.
So it makes you feel better to know that you are not the only one splitting hairs?
Just joking.
LMAO.
And yes…it does.
“Thats when you see, any successful black man that has used his mind to achieve success is branded as, an uncle tom, not black enough, a sell out, weak and /or, often these days, gay.”
I don’t think this is true, folks are not labled those things just because of so called success but rather something lacking or telling in that individual’s character more times that naught.
How do you measure success btw? IMO it’s relative to that person’s whole story.
“How do you measure success btw? IMO it’s relative to that person’s whole story.”
co-sign
while i definitely think its unfortunate for the perceived have-nots to target the haves simply because they, well, HAVE. and this whole notion of keeping it “real” and keep it “black” means to keep it “hood” is ridiculous….. i dont at all agree with the premise that (a) Jalen Rose was speaking as an “unsuccessful negro” (then or now) or that (b) that unsuccessful people (not just black) are unsuccessful because they arent WILLING to work hard (which also isnt applicable to Jalen Rose or any of the other Fab 5 for that matter).
and because i dont think any of these sentiments made in this comment by Yale Gent apply to Jalen Rose — the user of Uncle Tom and b*tch to describe a fellow black athlete in Duke’s bball program — and are therefore off base and a tad out of order. CLEARLY Rose worked his a$$ off before college (he had a very high GPA from my understanding), worked his a$$ off IN college (the Fab 5 were a force to reckon with and that doesnt come by being lazy or unwilling to WORK), and i imagine hes still working his a$$ off to be gainfully employed by ESPN and have the means to produce a film aired on prime time TV. so…. whats your point as far as the key players are concerned?? because Rose doesnt come off to me as some “unsuccessful negro”
and where this point of view of YG seems headed to me is that because some one is perceived to not have achieved certain successes (and i imagine success in YG’s context is measured by material wealth and social status) and certain degrees of education (and by extension of previous VSB convos the TYPE of education and whence said education came) they are therefore unworthy of our attention or help. that is to say to assume that ppl who dont have “success” as measured by education and wealth havent achieved it because they dont want it or havent work hard enough to get it. and all the more reason why those ppl are undeserving of any programs, policies, or practices that afford them help or other opportunities to make a way in life.
I want to buy your comment a drink.
And maybe an appetizer. LOL.
Shoot, I want to have a one night stand with it and then beg it to marry me.
Umm I want to get on this comment
threesomelove affair too.Dear Gem’s comment- VEG and Sula won’t love and respect you like I would. Eff a drank/appetizer/one night stand. I’ll give you breakfast in bed, and a 5 course meal every night. With the finest wine. Hell I may even give you the stars, the moon, the sun AND the mountains. They can’t treat you better than I can
? V Renee
Bwahahaha! iCan’t with you!
Slain.
D@mn, you just gon’ break out After 7 lyrics, huh?? On a Thursday, huh??
hahahahaha! This just made me laugh out loud in the middle of a meeting!
Dead.
I would write a rant about how you completely and purposely missed the point of my post, but really, I believe you knew I was not talking about basketball players. I was addressing the concepts that I referred to in my post.
It doesn’t matter at all that you make azzumptions about me and what you think I mean, because i wrote exactly what I mean.
Truth hurts, sorry. Most underachievers are so because of their inability or lack of will to do what achievers do. Period!
Stop looking for an excuse to defend mediocrity.
“Hating is easy because you can do that from your couch on your $500 a month apartment, watching Meet The Browns, and its cosigned by your equally unimpressive friends.”
This is SO cold & SO funny b/c it’s (sadly, often) SO true!!! lolol
One would be hard-pressed to find a person that hates Duke as much as I do. I’m a native of NC. I was college educated in NC. I have family in every nameable city in NC. And while Jalen’s comments were…regrettable in presentation, I can attest that they were/are not completely baseless.
I agree with a lot of your points about Duke…from the farce of them playing the game “the right way” to their privileged, preppy arrogance (which, btw…they are both…really). And perhaps it is my firsthand knowledge and experience with this that will not allow me to root for Duke…ever.
With that said, Grant Hill is one of the few Duke players I ever respected (Elton Brand and Will Avery being the others). And I actually expected him to respond to Jalen Rose for calling him a Tom. Call Hill preppy if you’d like, but if you were watching college hoops back in his day, you got the sense that Hill wasn’t like “them”. He wasn’t arrogant. He wasn’t a cheap player. His idea of good defense wasn’t trying to draw a charge on a more athletic offensive player because he lacked the moxy to try to – I don’t know – BLOCK A F*CKING SHOT! Nah…that wasn’t Hill. He was – he is – a legit baller. A legit brotha. Those were fighting words by Rose to Hill. Any legit brotha would agree.
Still…Rose’s comments were not baseless in concept. And I’m not just saying that because I made the Time Warner dude take his Duke hat off before he came in my house last year (yes…I take hating Duke that seriously). I’m saying that because, unfortunately there is a lot of truth behind his angry statements…even if Rose hadn’t experienced those truths first-hand.
He was – he is – a legit baller. A legit brotha. Those were fighting words by Rose to Hill. Any legit brotha would agree.
nodding head
I get where Hill was coming from, but I also get where Jalen was too. Champ is right, that comment wasn’t just about what rose said, that was festering.
I think we are overlooking that Jalen was an 18 year old kid when he said this. Jalen also said that he was jealous that Grant had a father that was there for him and a stable home. I’m not sure if rubbing in his parent’s success and inter generational commitment to education is really taking the high road in light of this. Kind of like saying “If your parents had their ish together you could have gone to duke too”.
I blame SFG since we have to blame something.
I think we are overlooking that Jalen was an 18 year old kid when he said this.
i dont think ANYONE is overlooking this. but whether 18 or 28, the words are still hurtful and poisonous. esp for a grown man to say it and not make any assertion to provbe the feelings have changed (not in the documentary, not in any subsequent inerviews).
on top of the fact that just cuz you’re young and thinking ignorant things doesnt make it ok. we need to teach our children better. by the time you’re in college, you shouldnt still be so closed-minded.
I agree, just said I can understand where he was coming from.
why not jim jones?
I still find it hilarious that you’ve considered Jim Jones your arch-nemesis. Why not Cam’ron?
He isn’t impartial enough. He got his masters from the University of Maryland so I can’t say he’s without Bias.
wrong VSB.
I need to go watch this documentary and check out this Kyrie kid. I love Duke. As a DCtonian (I got that from a youngin on the 70 bus), I grew up around great NCAA programs, yet I was lured in by the Coach K magic. There is really no rhyme or reason to this. Grad school has sucked away my livelihood so I know its March Madness, but I have no idea what a bracket looks like :-/. Anyways, I also haven’t read Grant’s comments, but after browsing here, I think he had a right to defend himself. He’s a yellow suburban kid who has probably been defending his blackness his entire life. It gets old. As a yellow, educated, but not suburban VSS, I’ve had to play the how black are you game too. I’ve pondered resorting to carrying salt in my pocket, cork, and sambo dancing upon request Bamboozled style. back to my point…
Upthread, a lot of people have mentioned both race and class, and I’m really starting to realize as more black people ‘make it’ class is becoming more and more of an issue. Other than racism, many of the characteristics that have united black people, have been where you lived, what you ate, how you spend your free time, and how you talk and dress. All of which are usually tied to your upbringing and opportunities. I def think there is more to being black than class, but its kind of overlooked.
“I def think there is more to being black than class, but its kind of overlooked.”
Agreed. Chicago just had it’s mayoral election and the black folk vying for the job decided on a consensus candidate so they wouldn’t split the black vote. I found the move insulting for a number of reasons not least of which is that the city’s major black ‘leaders’ thought the black community was so monolithic that it could present one set of issues and all would be good.
Truth is, middle class and low-income blacks have some of the same issues as far as access to decent schools for their kids, etc. But there are also some very big differences – politically and socially – and folks don’t seem to get that. Yes, we’re black and share a common bond and struggle. But opportunities and circumstances have put a few of us in higher income brackets and so our expectations, hopes and dreams adjust accordingly.
I feel ya. Thinking black folks are monolithic is exactly why Fenty lost DC’s past mayoral election. Middle class/Upwardly mobile blacks that moved to the city for jobs and/or college were baffled that Gray won as opposed to Fenty. I wasn’t. Fenty campaigned as a grass roots candidate in 2006 and was elected because of it. As the city’s demographics have changed, so have traditional politics. Fenty’s reform movement isolated teachers, unions, and many low income communities. Even if Gray isn’t going to be that different, he at least recognized this isolation and played off of it to win. We are different, but then we aren’t. Oh the complexity of being black.
I always hated Duke and I never really was aware of the affluence thing I just always felt their style of play was a little tight and they did come off as a little arrogant (even if that arrogance wasn’t spoken). But I did feel that way about local private schools though even if they recruited (stole) players from communities that wouldn’t tend to send kids to those schools. It’s still funny to see every other star black athlete coming from Catholic schools when outside of Lousiana and Caribbean communities the amount of black Catholics gets a little scant.
In general I think Grant Hill knew that Jalen Rose and Jimmy Kings comments were from the perspective of 18 and 19 year old kids but it sounded like this by far wasn’t the only time he was referred to or thought of as an “Uncle Tom” even if not in those exact words and he had a chip on his shoulders about it, which he probably should.
Whether or not Grant Hill’s response is applicable he’s probably been waiting to say them for years and they needed to be said by somebody
who communicates better than Bill Cosby.Black Catholic community in the DC area is huge.
Really?? I know in DC a lot of people go to Catholic schools but I never realized that there were that many black Catholics in DC.
Yep a lot of schools actually had black Catholic churches affiliated with them.
On another semi-related note. I tweeted as much, but the documentary made me feel Bill Walton was a hater too! I have side-eyed Bill Walton for other things, but my side-eye was skrong
strongon that old footage with him criticizing Michigan. (I know that’s what is done and it happens all the time, but it added to my side-eye for Bill)Yeah, Ol’ Bill always got something slick to say…I think he’s gotten a lil’ better over the years, tho’…not quite as much of an a$$ as he was in years past (he used to say some straight asinine ish about Webber, AI, etc).
Still, I can respect his opinion and commentary to a certain extent because he actually played ball at every level. Analysts/commentators who have never stepped foot on a court yet make derogatory statements about individual players annoy me greatly (I’m looking at you, Peter Vecsey). Hell, the very notion of professional critics of any type (i.e., sports, movie, food, etc.) just baffles me…I mean, how you gonna critique something that you’ve never done??
Considering the fact that Bill Walton is a Dead Head (And you know what I mean!) Walton too should have thought before he spoke.
“I Got 99 Problems And A Grant Ain’t One”
Jimmy King – Way to evolve Jimmy
Thoughts:
1. I’ve always hated Duke but I never felt the need to insult anyone’s blackness over it. “I point at Q-Tip and he states “Black is Black.”
2. Kyrie Irving is a monster.
3. There is a horrible anti-intellectual undercurrent in this country that is cutting across all racial and class lines but it’s seriously hurting young black kids.
4. Any black man on this site would have responded to Rose and King.
5. I’ve only ever pulled for UNC and my college. The Fab 5 and UNLV were fun as hell to watch though.
6. Laettener (who could ball) along with ESPN’s Kirk Herbstreit always reminded me of the grown up versions of a bullies from an 80′s teen movies.
7. Kyrie Irving really is a monster.
8. I really hate Duke.
9. As a Carolina fan I have to own up to the NBA busts that UNC has produced. It’s a long list. Forte, Wolf……….
10. I thought it was funny when the Fab 5 were excited about thinking they were going to the Cosby Show but many faulted Grant for living the Cosby Show. #Negrologic
11. The finale of Seinfeld is currently in a fist fight for the “You Strung Me Along For Years For This Sh*t” award for crappy finales.
12. This is all Sean Combs’ fault.
“11. The finale of Seinfeld is currently in a fist fight for the “You Strung Me Along For Years For This Sh*t” award for crappy finales.”
Yep. The Sopranos too. :/
Your number 3 and your number 10 strike vibrant chords inside me. (yes, that’s what she said… kinda)
In the case of #3 the continued theme of malady hurts people of color more is continued.
As for # 10, You’re welcome.
“3. There is a horrible anti-intellectual undercurrent in this country that is cutting across all racial and class lines but it’s seriously hurting young black kids.”
Totally agree with this. You see it in all communities but our kids can’t afford to have this type of foolishness pulling them back, keeping/holding them down.
Y’know, this brings up an interesting point. While many ppl point to our Prez as a great role model for our kids, the young boys especially (and he is…a great counterpoint to the whole aspiring rapper/athlete meme that’s been dogging our lil’ boys for a while now), that undercurrent is pretty strong and keeps pulling a lot of our kids under. I even see it in my own family…smh.
There’s gotta be a way of making education/intellectualism seem cool and worthwhile again. I’ve often halfway joked w/ a couple of friends of mine that perhaps some of our disruptive kids should have to do a “slave” semester, where they spend 3-4 days a week in a field out in the hot a$$ sun, picking cotton, cropping tobacco, etc for 12+ hrs/day (just for kicks, we can throw some of these absentee, pi$$-poor parents out there too). No compensation…no technology…no air conditioning…just work. At the end of the semester, the kids would have a choice as to whether they want to continue their ‘slave’ experience or go back into the classroom and get up on them books. I know it sounds extreme, but sometimes circumstances call for extreme measures.
” I’ve often halfway joked w/ a couple of friends of mine that perhaps some of our disruptive kids should have to do a “slave” semester, where they spend 3-4 days a week in a field out in the hot a$$ sun, picking cotton, cropping tobacco, etc for 12+ hrs/day (just for kicks, we can throw some of these absentee, pi$$-poor parents out there too). No compensation…no technology…no air conditioning…just work”
So essentially you want them to live in Allendale for a summer?
Pretty much…actually, they can split time between Allendale and Hampton. Spread the wealth…
*nodding*
If three weeks of pitching watermelons or pulling weeds from rows of peanuts in the southwestern SC heat doesn’t push you to aim hire then there isn’t any help for you.
#s 3, 10, 11 (and more than likely 12) = Truth
“#s 3, 10, 11 (and more than likely 12) = Truth”
Why can’t I blame Puffy? Cassie, is that you?
Bwahahahahaha
I said, “more than likely 12″! #nocassie
I was going to blame puffy too, but I didn’t want to turn this into an HBCU conversation.
I STILL might snuff Joe Forte if I catch his azz on the streets.
I hate Duke, and I almost went there so I have no excuse.
Well, I do have an excuse. A rival h.s bball player that used to whoop my h.s’s ass went there. And while he was there he proceeded to whoop my Trojan bball team’s ass in the Elite 8. So F them. And their mamas.
But this was funny…… “and I can’t fault Hill for basically saying “Ya’ll analog niggas can kiss my f*cking Dukie ass” in the most verbose way possible.”
wow. i’ve learned so much today.
i didn’t know duke was so hated, though i’ve read “duck fuke” about a hundred times across the internet this week, so i just thought there were a lot of passionate fans on the opposing side.
i do think it’s ridiculous to demean a student’s “blackness” based upon the school he played for. jalen rose is a jerk in life in general though, so i’m not surprised that he wouldn’t have clarified thoughts from years ago. alllll he had to do was clarify. lol
Maybe i missed it about the dynamic of Jalens father and his role in his life who was a NBA player himself. So does that make Jalens mother kinda like those women on the basketball wives but with a bad attorney seeing that there were no child support payments
Sidenote who NCAA bracket is busted seeing #4 Louisville lose to #13 Morehead (funny name for a school, More head state, especially if the ladies didnt live up to the name)
His letter essentially summed up what has pittted black people against each other for centuries…have vs. have nots….light skin vs. dark skin…niggerish behavior vs. refined(legal) behavior. I am personally tired of us revisiting the same foolishness, why can’t we just let it be. Black people must stop propping up the hood and the behaviors that seem to perpetually breed there…there is no future in keeping it real. Black children are ultimately the victims of our inability to not get our ish together and right the ship.
As a Blue Devil and the person who picked Grant up from the airport after he got drafted to the NBA to take him to his surprise reception, I thank you for this article. The amount of Duke hate has never ceased to amaze me. I was born in Harlem and raised in DC and Atlanta, and in many ways being at Duke was one of the blackest experiences of my life. We celebrated our blackness in every way imaginable. People who think they know something about the degree of blackness of the average black student or basketball player at Duke sound silly to me. To say we all came from middle class, two parent homes with educated parents would be a fallacy, but what if we did? Who cares really? At the end of the day what does that matter? If Jalen was talking about how he felt back then, fine. But I have to say, I did get joy from Grant’s article. I don’t think it was only directed at Jalen and the Fab Five, but to all the ignorant people who hated a top notch, disciplined program for no reason.
I am a Dominican who (to my knowledge) has no direct Black ancestors. By direct, I mean, I don’t have like a grandfather or great-grandfather or uncle or aunt, etc. who is/was Black. Nonetheless, I am very proud of my country’s African history and I will not sit here and degrade it at all. At some point I must have been Black, even if that was like hundreds of years ago. I wouldn’t be ashamed of it. Being Black is part of my country’s history, and it’s not a history I frown upon. I am extremely proud of my roots, even if I don’t have an uncle/aunt/grandparent/etc. who is dark. It’s funny how a lot of other Latinos don’t consider me a “true” Dominican because I don’t have at least one Black person in my family. My people come from Africa. I’m Black whether you see it or not!
BTW, love Grant Hill’s response.
Hi Champ, Everyone,
I kinda figured you’d get wind of this tempest in a teapot sooner rather than later, and as your post today proves, you didn’t disappoint.
I’m a bit late to the dance, but I did want to register a few thoughts, just for the VSB record…
I think there are a number of themes running through the ongoing grudge match between Jalen Rose and Grant Hill here, all of them converging on what is at this point is perhaps America’s true Black Sport – basketball. Sure, Black folk have been a presence in baseball’s history, and make a considerable one in football currently – but it is the NBA that not only embraces Black folks, but a particular kind. Of course, I am referring to Hip Hop. No other professional sporting business so embraces the Hip Hop culture, mythos and ethos, as the NBA.
But that’s only one side of the story – on the other side, are the still very White underwriters of the game, those season ticket holders and the like, who have come to, little by little, year after year, air out their grievances and concerns about the purity of the game itself being overtaken by a pernicious force that the Fab Five represents. After all, they were the prototype for the current NBA “Hip Hop” orientation – though they weren’t tatted up and adorned in cornrows, their look (the baggy pants and black socks) and style of play (much more improvisational and individually focused in comparison to Duke), along with their gruff demeanors and hardscrabble backstories, formed the template of the modern day NBA. Grant Hill, and for that matter, David Robinson, were a kind of throwback in the minds of many “purists” that welcomed a more genteel style of play and demeanor.
Rose, however crudely his remarks then and now might have been, was right in one major respect – that Duke was indeed a highly selective school that tended to select its players from certain backgrounds, that would have not been likely to recruit him or guys like him. Of course, the irony in that is the players they produced – while not bums by any means in aggregate – were never dominant forces in the L, either. Aside from calling Hill an “Uncle Tom”, Rose should have called Hill soft – because that’s what everyone else called him for much of his career. His toughness and ability to withstand the rigors of a rapidly evolving NBA, one that would come to be defined by the rapidity, to say nothing of the sheer physicality of the game, were a constant source of murmuring about Hill almost from day one. Yeah, being a nice and intelligent guy is a plus, but in the end, in the L, it’s all about wins/losses – or failing that, distinguishing yourself in some major way. As I said to a White blogger who attempted to make Rose’s personal comments about a singular individual into a larger commentary on the “Black race” as a whole, no one questioned say, Allen Iverson’s toughness on the court and iron will to win; EVERYBODY questioned Grant Hill’s, especially the former. But nah, no one called the guy an “Uncle Tom”.
Which brings me to the next point – this whole notion of “Acting White” is something that has gotten so out of control, it begs a post and examination (at the least) by itself. But I’ll just say, that after giving this whole thing a goodly bit of thought, I cannot agree with the conventional wisdom that says that Poor Black folk in America’s slums harbor active resentment against the Barack Obamas of the world – indeed, if anything, the very presence of Obama in the White House, proves otherwise. I would like to proffer the following – that it is not the poor Blacks who keep such notions as “acting White” alive, but their middle class and above betters. Why? Because, as anyone who has studied class (read your Dave Fussell) knows and knows well, to be Middle Class is to live in a constant state of anxiety, because of all the classes a society can have, you’re the one who has the most to lose. Don’t take my word for it, checkout the works of Ellis Cose or Mary Patillo along these lines. Moreover, take a look at those who talk the most about topics like these – they almost never are from the Black underclass, but rather from the Grant Hill class themselves. If the old saw about whatever that hits White America hits Black America twice as hard has any truth to it, it is then perfectly understandable as to why Buppies would have twice the angst as their White counterparts. In some ways, they are Men and Women without a country – not truly at home in the Hood, not quite fitting into White America either. This isn’t to say that the Black working and underclasses don’t have their BS with them and/or don’t do any dirt either; they most certainly do. But the theory, as I’ve laid it out above, is sound.
Again, in examining Obama himself, we can perhaps see a bit more of that which is eating at Buppies; because, for all his intelligence, insight and drive, Obama’s path to the White House went straight through the Hood, in his case, the southside of Chicago. Whether he liked it or not, he had to get his street cred, and I think it is this that bothers the Buppie most of all – that for better or for worse, the Hood remains the center of gravity in Black American life. And this is true in America’s Blackest sport, basketball, too.
The future of which, is clearly pointing NOT in the direction of Grant Hill, but indeed in the direction of players who either don’t graduate college or in increasing numbers, don’t even attend college at all and come into the league right out of highschool – indeed, three of the leagues biggest names presently – Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant and Lebron James – are cases in point. Two of the three are NBA champions; the latter is the best all-around talent since perhaps the immortal Magic Johnson himself. In this, Jalen Rose may have the last laugh – his Fab Five, in a very real since, dropped the seeds for the aforementioned Men to come into being, and changed the trajectory of an entire organzation.
Think about it.
O.
Why does Duke have to recruit from the inner city? Is any school required to recruit from the inner city? Since Duke allegedly chooses to recruit from the ‘burbs, it will just miss out on some real quality players. That’s it.
This whole argument just exposed Jalen and Jimmy for the bitches they are. “I’m smart too!” “Why didn’t Duke recruit me?” “Waaa Waaa” They could have just asked Chris Webber what it takes to be recruited by Duke because he knows personally. Its probably one of the reasons why Webber declined to participate in the documentary. Besides, who would want to relive that time out fiasco or the NBA career that never was? Its seems that Jalen and Jimmy are not only living in the past, but continuing to milk it for whatever its still worth.
I applaud Grant’s response. Its time for Jimmy and Jalen to put childish things away.
I’m sorry, black bougie insecurity is rearing its ugly head here once again. I swear we (and I include myself because I certainly do have bougie background) can’t ever hear anything critical without how we related to the establishment without whining about how we’re mistreated by my our own people.
Here’s a thought. MAYBE ITS YOU & US?
We create this notion that to be smart means you have to give up whatever version of the black aesthetic you carry. If you talk in AAVE you’re not intelligent. We hate education…its bullshit. No we don’t. SMART black kids are not rejected. Socially inept nerd black kids are rejected…just like they are in the white community. You think Bill Gates was the popular kid in school? Please. Part of the reason why our kids struggle is because of this sense that they have to give up everything about who they are to fit in and get the success. Nobody likes being told that where they come from & who they are is not worthy or respect and must be abandoned.
Jalen Rose never said that coming from a two parent home was less black or Uncle Tommish. But Duke as an institution has always been a place where conformity ruled, it was rigid, it was a follow authority & tradition and don’t deviate place. There was & still is no room for Jalen Rose’s asthetic no matter how talented he or others may be. And let’s keep in mind Jalen Rose was a honor student and highly sought after player when he was ignored by Duke’s recruiting.
During the 90s, the media especially chose to present Duke like they were golden children who could do no wrong and Michigan as thugs. They claimed Duke practiced hard while Michigan was just lucky. They claimed Duke had style but a group of freshmen that went to the finals were all flash. They acted like civilization was going to ruined because black boys wore baggys shorts, black socks & bald heads. The outright racism against this Michigan, even by their own alumni was real, palpable, and oppressive.
Laetner was the white hope & poster boy for Duke & all it represented. Grant Hill was his black counterpart and THAT’S why many in black america just couldn’t get behind Duke. I came up uppermiddle class from the projects to start. Its like the media & that school were looking at my mama, my cousins, and my friends and labeling us as thugs because we liked hip hop or had bald heads and had that swagger. Like we couldn’t be smart and want to wear our shorts baggy. Duke and their fans seemed like elitist snobs and nobody likes a snob.
And can I just say that the implication that the Duke player were more disciplined than Michigan is ridiculous. How do freshman go all the way to the final 2 without being disciplined, in fact they must have been more so than their older counterparts by virtue of the fact that they had less experience being younger.
Nobody hated Duke because they were disciplined, they hated Duke because people acted liked in order to show discipline the kids had to act, dress & talk like the Duke players. If you didn’t you were a thug, classless & frightening.
“But Duke as an institution has always been a place where conformity ruled, it was rigid, it was a follow authority & tradition and don’t deviate place. ”
@Girl Nuyorican- Can you explain this statement? What is it based upon?
@Kia Muze- I’m trying to figure out the same thing.
ESPN’s Jemele Hill spoke on this today on the Sports Reporters. All of these characteristics attributed to Duke are the media’s doing. I do not recall Coach K or any Duke player, Black or otherwise, labeling itself as the standard bearers or the place for the “The Stepford Kids.” The “media” would build up Michigan vs. Duke or UNLV vs. Duke as the “street kids” vs. “polished kids” or the “thugs” vs. “the legacy kids.” Fair or unfair, both teams had to live with the labels and we the public lapped it up and apparently believed every word. Chris Webber was neither a street kid nor a thug, but it seems that he bought into the hype while at Michigan as well. Grant Hill’s response, IMO, was years in the making. Why should he apologize from where he comes from? I’m quite sure Jalen will not expect his kids to apologize for how they are being brought up.
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