Dating, Relationships, & Sex, Theory & Essay

A Conversation About Double Standards And How “Reformed Homosexual Man” = “Promiscuous Woman”

***A (somewhat) paraphrased summary of a conversation I had with a female friend last week***

“I read your “Slut” post”

“Congrats!”

“Shut up.”

“What did you think?”

“You’re a semantics ho.”

“You always give me the best compliments.”

“That wasn’t a compliment. More like an assessment of how annoying your awkward principles are”

“Thanks!”

“Anyway, I see the point you made, and I agree…kind of, sort of. But, there are certain words that’ll never be cool. Bitch. C*nt. Kappa, etc. Slut is one of them. There’s just too negative history behind it.”

“Why are you bringing this up now?”

“Something about that discussion just rubbed me the wrong way. It wasn’t really the discussion itself, either. It’s just…I don’t know. I know that promiscuous women are  frowned upon by men, but I have trouble understanding why y’all n*ggas even care. I get the whole male ego thing, but if a woman is sleeping with you, devoted to you, and monogamous, why should it even matter how many men she’s slept with before she met you?”

“You kind of answered your question right there. I doubt that most adult men would dead a relationship with a woman who’s sleeping with, devoted to, and in love with him just because he found out that she’s been around the block more times than a mailman with dementia. Thing is, if he found out that information beforehand, he’d probably be less likely to want to get into a relationship with her”

“Why?”

“Because, many men feel that a woman who has been promiscuous is less likely to be devoted to him, monogamous, and capable of staying in love with him. Basically, it’s not as much about “being with someone everyone else has been with” as much as it’s about “The more men she’s been with, the less likely she is to be completely fulfilled by what I’m bringing to the table.” You really don’t “get the male ego thing” because this is all about ego.”

“Yea, I’ve heard that before, and I still don’t get it.”

“Get what?”

“The visceral dislike many men have of promiscuous women. I guess I understand why it matters. What I don’t get is why it seems to matter to y’all so damn much. Are all of you really that damn insecure?”

“Hmm”

“Why are you making that face?”

“I know you hate my analogies, but I have no choice but to make another one now.”

“Give it to me.”

“That’s what she said.”

“Huh?”

“Nevermind. Anyway, remember the conversation we had about homosexual men, and how you wouldn’t be able to be with a dude who’d done even one non-straight thing in the past — even if you knew the guy was devoted to you and monogamous?”

“Of course. I’m not special, though. Most women feel that way.”

“Exactly.”

“Exactly what? Will you stop speaking in f*cking code for once?”

“How you (most women) feel about “hetero” men who might have done something gay before is exactly how many (if not most) men feel about promiscuous women.”

“Apples and oranges. How do those things even compare? It’s nowhere near the same thing.”

“Maybe not, but how that knowledge makes the opposite gender feel and react is the same. The same reasons why many woman wouldn’t want to be with a guy with a homosexual past — the doubts she’ll have if she’ll ever be enough for him, the fact that she might not be able to help picturing him f*cking or getting f*cked by another man, etc — are the same things going through many men’s heads when thinking of promiscuous women.”

“I don’t believe you.”

“That’s ok. You don’t have to.”

—Damon Young (aka “The Champ”)

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Damon Young

Damon Young is the editor-in-chief of VSB. He is also a contributing editor for EBONY.com. He resides in Pittsburgh, and he really likes pancakes.

  • VeeWoo

    *Nailed it.

    • Rewind

      Indeed…and yet there will be many non-believers

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        so basically, “my analogy” = “republicans and the theory of evolution?”

        • Rewind

          Indeed. It’s so clear but you know people will BS their way through it as if their lives depended on it.

    • Wistopher

      PERFECT!

  • http://mrweethomas.wordpress.com weethomas

    It’s ok Champ. I believe you.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      thanks, wee

      • Who, me?!

        Okay, excellent point and now im back in love with VSB! (went on strike since the Red Tails post)

  • The King of Hearts

    Your stance on this issue will be referenced, quoted, and cited by black people (of all races) for years to come. Very, VERY profound my brother. In one analogy, you have captured the wisdom of an issue so simplistic, and yet so misunderstood.

    • Justmetheguy

      “Your stance on this issue will be referenced, quoted, and cited by black people (of all races) for years to come. Very, VERY profound my brother. In one analogy, you have captured the wisdom of an issue so simplistic, and yet so misunderstood.”

      Precisely. And you did the same to my response. Imma just sit back, kick my feet up and wait on the ladies’ rebuttals lol

    • Rewind

      Pretty much. I’m mad he made it so effortless. I’ve said the same thing and caught hell for it. So let’s see how many misunderstandings arise out of this conversation, because someone will definitely twist these words around.

    • Kandi

      This is actually a really good analogy. A male friend once told me that the difference between sex for a man and sex for a woman, is that a woman is giving up more because a man is physically entering her body. In that there is a potential harm so a woman should ideally trust the person and the act should be held in high regard. So, if a man were to have someone “enter him” once much in the same way for women there’s no coming back from that.

      • spottieottiedarlin

        so, what if the man is the one doing the entering?

        • Justmetheguy

          @ Spodieottiedarlin- If he’s the one doing the entering, then it’s up to the woman to decide if she wants to wait on his release date or just keep it movin…lol

          • JessicaL

            Lmao, I am dead and gone.

          • Breezy

            DEAD….Cell block 4!…lol

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      lol, thanks. I appreciate the compliments, but y’all are making it sound like i found the holy grail or some sh*t. it really aint that serious

      • Valerie

        LOL

      • http://wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

        It is a novel analogy. Credit deserved.

      • YALE GENT

        It really is that serious. You made very clear issue, even more clear. So clear that the only response from a woman can be ignorant denial or intelligent acceptance.

        On many issues where the truth and is obviously clear, many women still choose denial because its easier to deny than to accept that they are/were wrong.

        along these same line many guys have to admit that they are wrong when they are actually right, we knowingly do this, mainly because we would rather have sex than argue.

  • http://www.twitter.com/chellziswinning Chellz

    pretty much.

  • http://thejahfiles.blogspot.com/ B. Brown

    If that equal sign was one of the squiggly equal signs, I’d be all in. I think there’s a little bit of a difference, though. The increased risk of STD/STI transmission among gay men makes it dangerous as well as “promiscually risky”.

    Well, looking at the quote again it says most men. Doesn’t say me. On that account, I have to agree.

    • JessicaL

      Exactly change the equal to the squiggly lines and I could totally see what you’re say

      • JessicaL

        I meant to say saying.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “The increased risk of STD/STI transmission among gay men makes it dangerous as well as “promiscually risky”.”

      wouldn’t that same risk be associated to promiscuous women?

      • rhenewal

        It would, Champ. Many people use this whole “increased risk of STDs” as a backing for their homophobia. The risk of a gay man getting an STD is no higher than that of a straight woman. It’s all about protection, and the gay community, unlike the black female community, is well-educated about their “increased risk” and therefore work hard to combat it.

        • k-steez

          is that true rhenewal? i’m going off of my own thoughts, not a science book, so i’m certain i cld be wrong- but, i wld think there’s an increased likelihood for std transmittal when there’s a tear/opening/blood, which again is more likely when something enters a bodypart that was built for exits(i.e. entering a @nus vs. a v@gina…no?

          • http://thejahfiles.blogspot.com/ B. Brown

            This was the thought that I had. Has nothing to do with a phobia (at least on my end).

        • A Woman’s Eyes

          +1

          • A Woman’s Eyes

            re: Rhenewal’s comment

      • ELove

        Sooo YOU’RE basically ASSuming that ALL “promiscuous women” don’t Practice SAFE SEX Though ?!!? I’m just commenting towards YOUR Retort (That’s All…)

  • SororSalsa

    I can definitely relate. This year, I had a guy I had casually dated reveal to me that he was bisexual. After which, he expressed how much he wanted to continue dating me. I had already stated that we should stop seeing each other (for other reasons), but this definitely gave me pause (not that kind of “Pause”).

    Even though I had already made the decision to stop dating him before his revelation, I had to give this some thought. If I’d still been interested and he revealed this to me, would I stop dating him because he was bisexual, or because he wasn’t honest about it from the get go? Definitely, something to make you say “Hmmmm”.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “If I’d still been interested and he revealed this to me, would I stop dating him because he was bisexual, or because he wasn’t honest about it from the get go?”

      which one do you think it is?

      • SororSalsa

        I think it would be the dishonesty. That revelation, combined with the “I’ve gone off my meds” crazy that he displayed for a couple of weeks after his announcement, was enough to scare me off for good.

        I would definitely have to give a lot of thought to starting a relationship with someone who is bisexual, but if he was honest from the start I think I would at least consider it. In my case, we’d never gotten to the physical stage, so I didn’t have that many feelings about it.

        • KneeCee

          “In my case, we’d never gotten to the physical stage…”

          And this makes ALL the difference in the world in this situation.

  • KT

    Welp.

  • SpirytSista

    That makes a lot of sense.
    Side note tho,
    Its funny how you can be a “former lesbian”, and ppl will accept that. But once a man has been gay, ppl will always look at him like that.

    • TheRealestLeo

      I don’t accept them (former lesbians). I believe that once you’ve crossed that line, there’s no coming back.

      • Todd

        That’s just you. I’ve dealt with more crossover artists, so to speak, than Berry Gordy in the 60s. You missing out playa.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          lol

          • Justmetheguy

            +1 I respect that you don’t contribute to the double standard trl, but yeah I’m team switchhitters all day. As long as she’s not a manhater it won’t deter me in the least bit. Gotta find me another one of them :)

            • TheRealestLeo

              I don’t know any switch hitting women that actually like men. I mean….they are switch hitting for a reason….

              • http://www.todisspits.blogspot.com MicTheMessenger

                Heard this comedian say something about how he thinks alot of lesbians still like wang because many use d!ldos and other wang-like paraphernalia. They just don’t care for men’s personalities all that much…

                • TheRealestLeo

                  That’s still not an excuse. My personality is part of who I am….if a woman has a problem with that, then she has a problem with me.

        • TheRealestLeo

          No I’m not.

          I want a woman that is 100 percent straight and only likes men. I’m 100 percent straight and I only like women….Why can’t I expect the same loyalty from her?

          Besides, dealing with a bisexual/lesbian woman gives me twice as many people she could theoretically cheat on me with.

          • http://asiyah3.wordpress.com Asiyah

            “I want a woman that is 100 percent straight and only likes men. I’m 100 percent straight and I only like women….Why can’t I expect the same loyalty from her?”

            Love this so much. I absolutely agree.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

        I feel the same way. Gay is gay. Whether you’re licking or sticking.

        Just say that you’re bi. But claiming to be “reformed” is bs in my opinion.

        • TheRealestLeo

          Exactly. Because the second she decides that I’m too short, don’t make enough money, not Idris Elba, don’t have 34 inch rims on my Bugatti spaceship, or too intelligent, she’s going to use one of the aforementioned as an excuse to go back to women anyway.

          • Justmetheguy

            I mean, but if she was gonna be bothered and turned off by those things, she could also use them as an excuse to get with a MAN that has those things. Much worse in my opinion. I can deal with being cheated on with another woman more than with another man. If she wanted women then I don’t take it personal. If she wanted men, but I wasn’t enough/good enough that’s gonna actually hurt every part of my soul and give me heartache and prolly indigestion too. Other women just don’t threaten me, even if she wants them more…I don’t know, maybe I’m sexist, but I don’t even see lesbian sex as real sex…not saying it isn’t, just saying it’s hard for me to really see it as sex when no d*cks are present…I know that may sound f*cked up, but it is what it is lol

            • http://challyshares.tumblr.com/ Nei Jae

              “just saying it’s hard for me to really see it as sex when no d*cks are present”

              +1

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      Its funny how you can be a “former lesbian”, and ppl will accept that. But once a man has been gay, ppl will always look at him like that.

      i think female sexuality is just generally thought to be more “fluid” and less restrictive than male

      • Rewind

        Only works that way because girl on girl is oversexualized. Men on men is demonized so that both genders are offended by it when they don’t need to be. Also it makes gay men seem weak whereas gay women are “interesting”.

        Unless they are butch…then it goes in a whole other direction.

    • Adonis

      That should be the only exception to the body count rule (lesbeanism), although it shouldn’t.

  • Iamnotakata

    I don’t have a problem with the word s!ut b/c there are a lot of s!uts in the world. But I don’t think the whole previously a gay male thing compares to a women wh0re.

    • Rewind

      That’s not the point. The point is the reaction from the opposite gender.

      People are not going to read the post properly and keep assuming the wrong thing. The correlation is not the two subjects, the correlation are the dependent variables, the men and women involved in dealing with sluts and closet dudes.

      • A Woman’s Eyes

        Loving the math analogies.

        • Rewind

          I’m taking Statistics for the 5th time…this crap is driving me crazy.

      • Top5DOA

        *Slow Clap* and for the original analogy.

        • Rewind

          Thank you kindly.

    • JessicaL

      Honestly its really not a matter of whether $luts= former gay men. What it is about is whether you feel comfortable enough about a person’s past. Is a man comfortable enough to date a woman with no discriminatory taste towards the Y chromosome. Is a woman comfortable to date a man who didn’t always color inside the lines. Let’s be honest most people consider bichexuals to be non discriminatory to the utmost. If you think inside those terms you see that straight men and women (when placed in those situations) have some type of common ground. Will insecurity raise up and cause you to question “Am I enough or will my significant other always want more peen?”

      • A Woman’s Eyes

        “Am I enough”

        Exactly!!!

      • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

        Honestly its really not a matter of whether $luts= former gay men. What it is about is whether you feel comfortable enough about a person’s past.

        but, it kind of is about that though. well, today at least

        • JessicaL

          Ok so I had to put my thinking hat on and steal the thinking chair to understand your logic. So you’re basically saying everyone is afraid that said gay or doxy female is going to find another man. In that way the insecurites and the subjects are the same. I think I may have rupured a blood vessel from all this thinking. I need to sit down now.

          • Rewind

            Exactly. See…it wasn’t that hard.

      • Justmetheguy

        +2 on JessicaL’s comment. Those who have demonstrated insatiable appetites that you could NEVER fill in the past will always make you pause. No one wants to live in perpetual concern that they aren’t bringing enough to the table, and of course he/she would always tell you otherwise. Just not worth it. Too many fish in the sea…

      • Rewind

        But…that’s the point Jessica…the whole point is about how the opposite sex feels when faced with these scenarios, and clearly the whole “I won’t be enough for you” feeling is mutual despite gender or reason.

    • JessicaL

      Give my comment free

  • Biker Chick

    I think you presuppose that being gay is a choice, I don’t believe it is. So it is hard for me to say that your analogy makes senses. Being promiscuous is a choice. Being gay is not. And why still, the double standard? Most men have “been around the block” but can settle down and not get the side eye, but women will.

    • Rewind

      He’s not saying that at all. Where are you getting that assumption from?

      When women hear about a man who’s been with another man, they pause and rethink whether they should deal with this dude, because it doesn’t look like a fair deal for them.

      When men hear about a woman who’s been around the block a few times, they pause and rethink whether they should deal with this chick because it doesn’t look like a fair deal for them.

      See the correlation? It’s the reaction that counts, not the subject..

      • GirlSixx

        I can dig it!! But me personally I would give the side-eye to a straight He-Whore as well.

        • Rewind

          As you should, they deserve no free passes.

      • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

        He specifically said the “feelings” were the same. this is where I disagree. In short, I think the man in that scenario potentially feels embarrassed. I think the woman in that scenario potentially feels insecure. Additionally, the mans potential for embarrassment decreases with the attractiveness of the woman. The woman’s potential for insecurity increases with the attractiveness of the man.

        • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

          In short, I think the man in that scenario potentially feels embarrassed. I think the woman in that scenario potentially feels insecure.

          the potential embarrassment comes from insecurity, though. basically, “why would you get with someone who may be likely to step out on you?”

          • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

            I felt as though the embarrassment came from “how many of these other dudes have smashed? are those guys over there whispering about her?”

            • Justmetheguy

              @ Champ and WIP- You’re both right. It comes from both. He’s embarassed because other dudes are over there talkin and reminiscing over memories with/in her, but he’s also insecure that she might revert back to (or miss and wish she could revert back to) the good old days. How come you’re talkin like the two are mutually exclusive. I would assume it’s normally both, which is why it’s so overwhelming for most men. If she’s drop dead gorgeous though, that tends to even out the negative force with an equally overwhelming force…

              • http://www.styleillusions.com WIP

                I don’t mean to suggest they’re mutually exclusive feelings; I thought that the feeling of embarrassment (and I’m really not sure that’s the best word) would far outweigh some lingering fear about her cheating.

                • Justmetheguy

                  @ WIP- Oh, I see. Nah, they’re pretty close to equal imo. The fear of her cheating never fully goes away though. It dies down and reappears. The embarassment factor at least dulls over time and can eventually be accepted. The feeling that you may not be enough for her or that she wants to be with others doesn’t go away, you’re just forced to repress it, deny it, and try to reason yourself out of it…no bueno. Most of us would rather just not deal with it.

          • Gia

            So because a woman has had a lot of partners automatically means she might cheat? Just because the partner count is high doesn’t mean she’s ever cheated on anyone. I get the analogy…but a woman could be a virgin, end up with a dude that doesn’t please her (or maybe her lack of experience makes it where she doesn’t know what is satisfying) and tip out trying to see what else is out there…ish happens.

        • Rewind

          WIP, you assumed we would naturally feel embarassed. Like Champ said though, our embarassment comes from our insecurity. Our insecurity will come from our disappointment. In other words, just like women, men have a cycle of emotions they will go through.

          And you said how good the girl looks would change how crappy we feel. Ok, but when every song on the radio is about some baller smashing some dude’s girl because he aint doing it right…well you’d probably feel insecure too at some point.

    • Namia

      well some gays think is is a choice, case in point Cynthia Nixon..should we discount that?

    • A Woman’s Eyes

      He’s not talking about the origin of homosexuality/heterosexuality.

      He is saying that people need to know if the man or woman they date feels they are enough for them.

    • http://verysmartbrothas.com The Champ

      “So it is hard for me to say that your analogy makes senses. Being promiscuous is a choice. Being gay is not.”

      being gay isn’t a choice, but having gay sex definitely is

      • Adonis

        being gay isn’t a choice, but having gay sex definitely is

        I was not ready for that…

      • http://wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

        BAM. again.

      • southernsweetness

        and there you go. period.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5FR1LGsT7E TheAnti-Cool

        If the choices are having gay sex or not having sex at all, or having sex with someone you don’t want to cover up your true feelings, is it really a choice?

        • RisaPisa

          Not in my world

      • A Woman’s Eyes

        ” being gay isn’t a choice, but having gay sex definitely is ”

        Exactamente!

        • kaname

          To me straight sex is defined as *any* sex act between a m/w, and therefore, gay sex is defined as *any* sex act between m/m or f/f. so people who start saying anal sex = gay sex get nothing but side-eye from me since m/w can and do have anal sex.

          • Adonis

            @Kaname

            I like logical leaps

    • IET

      Is wanting a lot of sex a choice?

      • kaname

        I would say yes, because you can choose to satisfy your libido with or without a partner. Certified sex addicts on the other hand…

      • Justmetheguy

        “Is wanting a lot of sex a choice?” Absolutely not! But HAVING a lot of sex definitely is

    • TheRealestLeo

      How is being gay not a choice?

      A person chooses to pursue their desire to be with another person of the same sex.

      Sure, maybe the THOUGHTS of being gay aren’t by choice….but choosing to ACT on them (which is what the world sees and has to go off of) is definitely a choice.

      • http://mrweethomas.wordpress.com weethomas

        So then being heterosexual should be an equivalent choice from a ethical standpoint.

      • Newnanite

        Those who study sexuality (homo- and hetero-) say that both are drives…as such, it’s a natural entity that is beyond choice. While I agree that acting on sexual drives is a choice (look at people who choose to be celibate; they’re choosing not to have sex), being gay is no choice.
        That being said, a person could absolutely be straight but want to experiment with the same sex but be naturally driven towards those of the opposite sex (the same applies for straight folk). It’s how people can stay in the closet (no R. Kelly)…